Hello,
I've just brought home a Honda Civic. The way the sound has been setup from my knowledge is reasonably atrocious. I have 2 subs, 3 amps, a set of 6x9's and a couple mids in the front door panels. For starters, the mids are run off the head unit, the 6x9's aren't even working, and all I can hear is bass. I was hoping someone on this forum wouldn't mind taking 5 minutes just to help me with the way the setup should be.
Below is a link to a schematic that I quickly drew up from what I can see in the boot, as well as a few pictures of the equipment:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/soundSetup.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007180.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007181.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007183.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007184.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007185.jpg
What I'd really like to know is what I should plug into what, and any words of advice would be great appreciated. GRIN
Thanks,
Bryan
Replies (69)
trunkisloud on 05/17/2007 17:21:16
well i wouldnt match the subs together as im sure others will agree....what model alpine amp is that?? the 6x9s are alpine which is good depending on what kinda shape theyre in....the "unknown" 480watt amp...whats the brand and model number.??....basically this forum works best when you provide brands and model numbers....that way the guys will know exactly how to wire it up to get maximum performance...and the front speakers...be sure to include the info on those....
welcome to the show..
swez on 05/17/2007 17:57:42
Nice diagram artwork... you're hired for the open diagram layout position needed here.
Will need a systematic plan to check all amps and speakers to see what works and what does not. It sound like you have bass now from your Jensen amp and mixed subs. If that works OK, we'll leave this one be for now.
The next step is to test your 6x9 rear speakers to see if they still work. This is often best done with a Digital Multimeter. (Ohms, ACVolts, DC Volts and a few other basic features are adequate) The picture shows no wiring to the speaker. That's one thing to fix as soon as you know the speakers are good.
Then, test the front speakers with the Ohmeter. If you don't get any readings here, these may be blown or disconnected.
That Sony HU, what model # is it? How many RCA output jacks does it have? Are you planning to use that No-Name 480 watt amp?
We'll start with this grouping and work through the process as needed.
Swez
PS Welcome aboard and BTW, did you know that this vehicle has the steering wheel and gages on the wrong side of the car? LOL Where ya from mate?
Dreamerrr on 05/18/2007 05:03:35
Thanks for the good starts guys. I've just arrived at work, so I can't check the finer details, however I can tell you that the 6x9's work, however, I think that there is a faulty connection on the Jensen AMP. From the Jensen, there are a couple wires (are they RCA's?) that connect into the Alpine amp (which is what the 6x9's feed from). The 6x9's worked intermittently when I moved the connection on the Jensen. So, should I take the Jensen off of the sub box, and open it up to see if I can fix the faulty connection? Or is this not advised because of stored power that might shock the hell out of me (a friend of mine said that happened to him once).
The mids in the front door do work, however they push out such a small amount of sound (compared obviously) to the subs in the back. I don't think they're blown, just not getting enough power from the head unit to make good clear sound.
As for the head unit. I'll get the finer details this evening. All I know right now is that its 50wattX4.
Another thing that I noticed, is that when I'm driving on say, the motorway (highway) around 3 or 4 thousand rpm (which should mean the charging system is working fully), the sound almost cuts out for a second every three/four seconds. And if I turn the volume down, it plays without pause. Is this because my car isn't generating enough power?
And Swez, I'm from the land where people drive on the correct side of the road, the people who invented driving... The English. lol. Orginally from Cape Town, South Africa, but now live in London (England).
Oh yeah, if you guys need anything like those diagrams, or possibly something more fancy, let me know and I'll see what I can do. I'll post some of my work that might interest you. Thanks for the help.
-Bryan
swez on 05/18/2007 06:19:03
OK, helpful reply and let's work with what we know so far.
1. Your subs are cutting out: This is often a simple case of re-adjusting the amp gain control. Many amps will shut off and come back on as mentioned, when the gain setting is too sensitive. Just dial back on the amp gain a little until the subs stay on at all levels of listening.
2. The mids in the front door would be much better if amped. This will make a big difference in sound output to the front stage of the car. It's a simple thing to do if the HU has RCA signal output jacks for the front, rear and sub. We can walk you through that process or have it done by a qualified audio tech.
3. The rear speakers look like they are in good condition. Here again, amping them too will help with staging. The general idea is to get your front and rear speakers working together with the subs. We look for a balanced system. The front stage should be dominant. (Strong) The rear speakers should fill in and compliment the front stage speakers. The subs provide low frequency bass to a level that one prefers.
4. It sounds like the RCA signal lines are faulty here. (Alpine/Jensen wires) If you can wiggle the jacks and the rear speakers work, it could be a simple jack failure or loose connections inside the amp. This is common in older amps that have been banged around for a while. In most cases, the jacks are mounted to the main circuit board inside the amp and may have come loose or have poor soldered connections to the board. (Loose tooth wobble) This is easy to repair if one has some basic repair bench skills and the proper tools. (To prevent electrical shock, this is best done when the amp is removed from the vehicle and the power feed and ground cables are removed) Can give more details as requested.
5. This Sony HU says 50 watts x 4 channels. This is a peak power rating. The internal amps are generally rated at about 20-22 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. (Normal full range speaker load rating) This is often adequate power for moderate listening levels when outboard amps are not used or perhaps to feed the rear speakers only. (Rear fill as we call it) For best performance, most aftermarket speakers work/sound much better when they are amped properly. Again, we can walk you through this aspect too.
In a nutshell, it may be wise to examine all the wiring options available from this Sony HU. If it has 2-3 sets of RCA outputs, (Front, Rear and Sub) that would be the best way to go. Knowing the model # of this HU would be a big help. Then we can look up the features, find a copy of the installer/users manuals and work through the steps to maximize your system performance.
Swez
PS London, England you say? Interesting... as we get a lot of readers from all over the world on this site. This site is based in the USA. (Florida, USA) But we have techs and Golds from various states to support our readers.
We have one guy based in India and a good number of folks from Canada as well. This site attracts folks from the UK, Mexico, Austrailia, Asia, South America, the Caribbian Islands and even Japan. That's quiet a mix huh? The interesting part, we all speak a common language... music and car audio-speak. How cool is that?
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 05/18/2007 10:03:59
Wow, that was a very informative post, and the pictures were great. Ok, I looked at the pics, and here are the problems that I see.
First off, the 6x9 you have pictured has no wires going to it at all. I am not sure if you disconnected them, but that would be a first check problem for me.
Mosfet Amplifier Amp480 has no speaker wires coming out of it, and I am not sure if it has any RCA inputs going into it. It seems like an illusion, but it seems there is nothing there.
A lot of wires are crossing here, and quality of said wire is leaving a lot to be desired here. I honestly wouldnt doubt ig the RCA's that I did see werent slplit ofen and crossing somwehere. If they were, there would be a possibility that a split that happened in the wire wouldn't be disturbed until a nice loud bass vibration might cause them to touch.
Is there any signal noise/ engine whing occuring at all? I looks like that may occur with all the wires that are crossing.
Good to be back to our mixed squad of audiophiles. We also come from many age groups as well. One giant online multinational team dedicated to making the world sound better...........
Dreamerrr on 05/18/2007 10:21:39
Well, the idea is to do this all myself in order to learn how car sound works and the best way to set it up. I'll be taking more pictures as I continue to set everything up properly.
Yes the 6x9's don't have wires connected right now, but thats because I disconnected them to take the picture. I have the feeling you're right about the Mosfet AMP being a lame duck/limp noodle, but I'll get some more details shots of it over the week-end. I'll also be taking apart the Jensen to fix the connection problem.
Yes, there is engine noise sometimes. I'm guess that when the wiring got mixed around in the boot/trunk they crossed causing the engine noise.
What I think the best idea is, is to rip out all of the existing wiring, then replace it with the correct length of quality wiring.
I think the thing that I understand the least is how the power is actually used. I read an informative post, saying that wattage does translate to how much power is actually being used in the system. So what is the difference between watts, ohms etc,.?
Okay, so my plan for this week-end, will be to disconnect everything, (after taking alot of pictures), fix the Jensen, and from there we can start putting the system back together. I'd also like to test the Mosfet to see if it's actually working. Is it a good idea to connect it up to the 6x9's for the test?
And what is the deal with the remote wire? I noticed it sits inbetween the power cables? Is it similar to a grounding wire?
jamesp on 05/18/2007 10:40:15
Dreamerrr, here is a link to a wonderful tutorial that contains all the answers to your questions. Just click on the subject of interest on the menu column on the right side of the page and, Voila’ dig in.
This site can always be accessed from the "links" section on the left up top on this page. Choose "General Car Audio Help" then from the page that opens choose"Basic Car Audio Electronics" It is all there.
http://www.bcae1.com/
trunkisloud on 05/18/2007 18:03:40
haha i love it when they call it a boot....
swez on 05/18/2007 19:07:36
BCAE1 is a great wealth of knowledge site. I see 2 links you may benefit from reading a few times as you go along the re-wiring and troubleshooting process. Here's a few good ones to study:
http://www.bcae1.com/installationprimer.htm
http://www.bcae1.com/audiots.htm
Don't be surprised if some of this is a bit over your head at first. We can help clarify questions as they come up. Enjoy the weekend reading as you dive in.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/20/2007 14:09:31
Thanks chaps. So here is the latest update on what I've been up to. Below are several pictures I took while taking everything apart. I believe that the two unknown wires are actually from the door mids which has since been connected straight to the head unit.
I also found 2 sets of RCA's coming out of the head unit, one which leads to the AMPS, and the other that runs to the CD changer. Do you need any other info about the Head Unit?
I had a little time to test the purple Mosfet AMP. It worked! However, when I switched the option of Sub-Woofer on, it stopped working. I also found one of the fuses blown (there are 2). So, if one of the fuses is blown and the AMP still plays, what isn't working because of the blown fuse? And what amp/ohm/watt fuse should I be using? One of the fuses is a 10, and the other, which is now blown is a 7.5.
Also in one of the photos you can see where I opened the Jensen AMP, and found the problem which was causing the 6x9's to cut out.
Here are the pictures, including a picture of the less than wonderful wiring, which I'm really tempted to throw away and replace:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007189.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007197.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007199.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007201.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007202.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007203.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007211.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007212.jpg
So, now, I'm looking for the best way to connect the system back together in the way that is going to get me the most accurate, clear and strong sound. My un-educated guess would be, the Jensen to the 2 Subs, the Mosfet to the 6x9's and the Alpine to the front door speakers, with new, correct size wiring. Should I find out anymore particular information on any of the system's parts?
Cheers
Bryan
swez on 05/20/2007 17:18:56
The Alpine T130 is the best amp of the bunch in terms of quality and reliability. It's rated at 50 x 2 Wrms @ 4 ohms, 65 Wrms @ 2 ohms/ch. This amp would be a good MATCH for your rear speakers.
What speakers are used in the front stage? Knowing what you have there, will help us figure out the best amp choice there.
I think I would set the Purple Toy amp aside for now. If both channels are not working, this amp is pretty useless. More often then not, when an amp fuse blows, there's something wrong inside the amp. (Repairs may not be worth it as this amp is very low power and of questionable quality) The low fuse values indicate a very low grade power amp.
The pictures of your Jensen amp guts suggest one pair of RCA jacks have been damaged. If I were to guess, these are probably preouts that feed your Alpine. If faulty here, the Alpine amp may drop out on you when driving on bumpy roads. This wiring method is often called "Daisy Chain" connections. It works best, (As is) for the rear channel speakers and a sub out. If each amp used has its own dedicated RCA lines off the HU, even better.
That Sony HU you mentioned, what is the model # of that HU? If it only has 1 pair of RCA signal lines to feed outboard amps, we may need to reconfigure things for better control of all amped channels used. Based on your model # and other details we can learn about this HU, have a few ideas on what to try on the rewiring plan.
Do you have some spare pocket change to upgrade an amp or 2 and perhaps some solid front stage speakers and such? Knowing your fiscal limits will help us determine the best ways to get the most from what you have now and may need later.
Finally, that Jensen amp... what are the fuse values in this amp? (25 x 2) I looked it up in an archives and it seems to be a decent amp for sub use. The power output here is a modest 300 - 350 Wrms @ 4 ohms when bridged MONO. That's pretty good for a decent 4 ohm sub. (Dual 10's or one 12")
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-EvHWBDGDTRN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=100&tab=detailed_info&i=110XA2250#Tab (Amp details)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/110/110XA2250.PDF (Amp manual)
Swez
PS This original install is a real mess at the moment. It is difficult to tell what goes where. (Wire wise) But the work you have figured out so far is moving in the right direction.
Don't be shocked if you end up starting from scratch. Yes, it's a longer road, but when it's all said and done, you'll know exactly what you have, where things are connected and a very clean install. That yields a solid understanding of how the work was done and why. You up for that one mate?
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 06:30:45
Hells yeah! I'm really looking forward to getting everything up to a decent spec. I'll check the HU model number tonight. It should be on the outside of the case right?
I should be able to afford an AMP upgrade at some point, I'd like to try to make do with what I have as much as possible, but upgrade the wiring so that all the possible bottle necks of the system are free. Then when I finally have some cash to upgrade the system, I don't have to think about the poor wiring hindering the system, so I can just plug in whatever I've bought with minimal worry. I'm not sure that I'm looking at it in the correct way, but I'd like to get the basics nicely setup first. Then worry about the strength of the system. Is this the correct way to go about it?
I'll be having a look on ebay for maybe a good wiring kit, and one or two other small upgrades. Would it be worth my while looking at a cross-over control unit? (I've been reading those websites above).
I'll let you know the details about the HeadUnit and the front door mid's details when I get home tonight. Also, on one of the websites above, it mentions that the correct way to get a good ground, is to attach the wire to some point on the base of the car (as mine has been done), however on the rear of one of the AMPs, it states that the ground should not be connected to the frame/chasis? So which is correct?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 08:29:54
The way I see things now, you will need 5-6 amp channels to do this well.
2 channels for the front speakers (6.5" rounds are factory size)
2 channels for the rear speakers (6x9" ovals here)
1-2 channels for the subs
From what I see in your gear so far, the Jensen and Alpine amps are usable. The "Purple Toy" amp seems to be the snag as it is very low power and one channel is not working. (Is that correct?)
That Jensen amp can be used for full range front speakers or your subs. The Alpine amp is good for your rear speakers.
Depending on the HU features available/lacking here, it might be best to add a Line Driver/EQ or Line Driver/Crossover network and 1 more amp. This additional amp can either be a Class D MONO amp for your subs or a 2 channel amp to power your front speakers. The choice depends on the sub(s) used and the power handling of the front speakers used.
Yes, the HU model number is usually noted on the face plate.
Note: Sony is one difficult brand to research. Their web info on car audio products is very limited and lame at that. (Especially older models) However, if I can find the specs/features on your HU model #, we should be able to pull things together with time. Do you have the install and user manuals for this HU?
There are several ways to obtain very good integration with even the most basic of HU designs. Some options are easy and cheap. Others are more complex and more expensive. The good news is, if the HU is in good working order, we can figure out a way to get the most from it.
As for a wiring kit, until we get a handle on the amps used, it's difficult to judge what you will need for power wire gage and a Distribution Block. The Alpine and Jensen amps need #8 gage wires each for power. Depending on the 3rd amp used, another #8 or even a #4 gage wire may be needed. Rather than shooting from the hip on wiring kits now, I suggest we concentrate on the hardware component side of this install for now. Then we can figure out the wiring kit needs.
Tell me about the subs you have now.
1. What are the RMS power ratings of each sub you have now?
2. What is the ohmic value of each sub?
3. Are these 10's [254mm] or 12" [305mm] subs? (I cannot tell from the pictures)
There are many more details to cover as we go through this process. Take your time and plan each step well now, then buy smartly as needed. This will give you the best results for your time, efforts and monies spent.
Quote: "Also, on one of the websites above, it mentions that the correct way to get a good ground, is to attach the wire to some point on the base of the car (as mine has been done), however on the rear of one of the AMPs, it states that the ground should not be connected to the frame/chasis? So which is correct?"
Hummm, which amp mentions this grounding method is incorrect? It is standard practice to ground an amplifier to the floor pan, chassis or frame. It is best to ground all amps to the same location and to bare metal with a bolt/nut or stud connection. A 10mm diameter bolt/stud should suffice. The trick is to keep all ground wires as short as possible. (Under 1 meter length per ground wire)
Say more as you can on the HU model # and subs you have now OK?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 09:03:15
Great! I'll have all the info this evening... I can't believe I haven't done this sooner. At some point this week, I'll start trawling ebay for the Line Driver/Crossover network.
For some reason, the wiring to the mids were disconnected from the purple rubbish amp. From what I heard, it plays both channels, but you're right about it being under powered. So, it looks like I'm going to replace the purple amp, for something to power the front mids, and I'll keep the Jensen on the Subs, although, I think that they're going to be under powered by the single amp. They're 12' subs. But I'll check on the RMS and ohmic values of each of them. Eventually, I'd like to sell both of them to get two of the same.
Thanks Swez.
- Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 09:18:21
As for your subs, if you plan to trade/trash or sell them later, consider a single 12" sub for your Jensen amp. Here, an SVC, 4 ohm sub is one option. The other option is a decent 2+2 DVC sub. At 300 watts RMS, there are many good 12's out there that will do the job very well in about 1.0 ft^3 sealed box or smaller. ( A tad larger if you want a ported box)
JBL, Infinity, Kenwood, Polk and Alpine all make good SQL subs to match this Jensen amp.
Consider these as you look around:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=113XW12DVC&g=520
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=1081250W
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWS1223
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWR1222
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=107DB124
Happy hunting,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 15:53:33
Okay... So, heres what I have:
Head Unit - SONY, 50Wx4, MDX-C6500R
Specs: http://www.ewtoo.org/~matt/minidisc/spec-6500.htm
Front door Mids - Phoenix 4 ohm Octane R speakers:
• 5.25 inch (130mm) Coaxial
• Frequency response: 90Hz-20kHz
• Sensitivity: 89dB (1W/1M)
• 50/100W (RMS/PEAK)
The Subs - (heres where it gets tricky...):
Picard Pro-plus 12inch of which has absolutely no markings on the rear of the sub. The only writing on it, is on the front which says "Picard Pro-Plus". I did a search and only picked up this forum log - http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/archive/index.php/t-170925.html
Alpine Type E 12 inch - has markings on the rear that say 4 ohms and a serial number - SWE-1241. According to a review site is: 12" 4-ohm Component Subwoofer Kevlar reinforced pulp cone, rubber surround, 50-200W RMS total power range, 26-1,000 Hz frequency response.
Below are some photos of the (what I think) is poor quality of wiring inside the sub-box, some pictures of the speakers and a few of the Picard Sub:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007216.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007218.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007219.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007220.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007221.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007222.jpg
I think that covers most of everything. As I said, I couldn't find anymore information on the Picard Sub. I'm not sure if you guys are more familiar with them?
One thing I'd like to know, is that from the rear of the CD Changer, there are three wires the two RCA cables, and a black wire which seems to find its way into the rear of the head unit. Does this mean that the CD changer takes is power from the head unit? Also, the specs on my head unit say that it has 2 pre-amp outlets. I'm guessing this is where the two RCA's plug into. However, if they are outputs, then why does the CD changer's RCA plug into them? I didn't follow the wires all the way under the dash board, but the wires and the connectors looked the same.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 18:11:57
Call it luck... but I did find a copy of the manual for this HU model on the Internet. Here's the general link and all you need do is hit the "Next" link on top of the page to change pages. I suggest you print this out for future references. Thank you Simon Gardner:
http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdxc6500r_manual/
Page 27 on this manual notes this HU has 2 pairs of RCA outputs. (Front & Rear, but no Sub channel) We can still work with this as is and you can even shut off the internal amps to conserve power and improve performance of this HU.
As for additional features to consider, if you'd like a dash mounted
EQ/Line Driver and 3 sets of preamp outs, (F,R & Sub) there are a good number of products to choose from. It just depends on your listening preferences, budget and what is available in your area. More on that later if you wish.
Front speakers are modest and a 2nd matching Alpine T-130 would be a very good option for the front door speakers mentioned. That would be the cheapest way to go and still have good stereo imaging and fade control. Look around and see what you can find.
As for the bass engine, it looks like you can use either sub or both with decent results. It seems the Picard sub can handle more power, (~300 Wrms) and if only using one sub, that would be a good choice when bridging your Jensen amp to MONO mode. I would recommend a sealed enclosure for this Picard sub. 1.12 Pro Plus, 4 ohms, SVC.
Looks like a very cheap full range wedge enclosure here. From best I can see, you have 2 speaker wire jacks in this box, a pair of cheap horms and probably some cheap capacitor type filters on the horns. If you would, consider getting a better sub enclosure that fits your Picard sub only. A sealed sub enclosure would be best as we really don't know enough about the sub specs to do ported. I would say a 0.85 - 1.25 ft^3 sealed box range would be good for this Picard sub. That box is poorly made and not much better than fire wood.
Finally, those front door Octane R5.0 speakers... did they come with remote tweeters and matching crossovers? (Hope so)
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Phoenix-Gold-Octane-R5-0-5-1-4-Component-Speakers_W0QQitemZ180109358844QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Cheers mate! You do have your work cut out here friend. This is a major do-over. But the end results should be much better than before.
Swez
PS I have to take off for now and will get back to you later on the CD changer part of your question then.
Dreamerrr on 05/22/2007 07:50:38
Great! I've found another Alpine T-130 on ebay which is ending this evening, so I should have the power for the front mids and rear 6x9's. Now, I've just got to sort out the sub box.
In England we've got a place called Halfords who do sound boxes etc,. I'll head around to them on the week-end.
So now, I've got 2 choices:
1. Buy a single sub box for the Picard sub
2. Buy a more powerful replacement AMP for both of the subs
3. Buy another AMP in addition to the Jensen for the second sub
Is that about correct? I mean, the single Jensen isn't powerful enough to cope with both subs properly. So, will the system produce better sound with the one properly powered sub, than the Jensen powering both?
Now, I'm not looking for the loudest system, but I'd really like to focus more so on quality. So, I'm guessing that going for the single Sub, powered by the Jensen, the mids and 6x9's power by their own Alpine T130 should give me a good quality system right?
Now, with regards to your comment about the remote tweakers, I don't have them. But if I did get some, a) where would I put them (I really hate the idea of sticking them onto the dashboard), b) what would I power them with? Do they need to be powered by an AMP?
I don't think that I'm going to go down the route of having a dash mounted EQ/Line Driver, as I'm looking to build a system that will play good all-round sound well, and not just loud bass, etc,. (I'm also not THAT fussy about the small changes between music that would require a Line Driver). So I think that what I need is the correct way to split the signals to the 3 amps without losing any power in that signal. I could use Y connectors, but wouldn't this reduce that signal? Would it be better to daisy chain the RCA's from the head unit, first into the Jensen, then into the 1st and then the 2nd T130?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/22/2007 09:27:31
That's great that you found another Alpine T-130 amp for the Front speakers. I would suggest adding tweeters with good passive crossover for your tweeters. Most can be purchased as separates and not very expensive. (30-50 Watts RMS power handling is good) The trick is mounting them in a location that gives you very good stereo imaging in the front stage. This would add a nice presents to your front speakers when amped. They can often be flush mounted or surface mounted, depending on the kit used. In many cases, it is good to mount in the door panels, a few inches for your Octane Mids. They will have a passive crossover to block lows and can be powered off the HU front channel amps or connected to the Octane mids. A picture of your door panels may be very helpful in placement. These are often very small speakers and easily mounted in or on the doors panels as desired.
As for your bass engine, that Jensen amp is adequate for some good bump off a single 12" sub, sealed or ported box. In this case, you'll have stronger, clean bass from this system than you had before with your dual 12's. Right now, each sub is only getting about 75-100 watts RMS per sub. Giving that Picard sub a solid 300 - 350 Watts RMS in a sealed box should sound much better than what you have now. Worth the effort here Bryan.
I suggested the Line Driver/EQ to give you more control over each part of the system from the driver's seat. The type I have used a few times now with very good results, is the Audiobahn AEQ6 or Q7. Clarion and a few others also make them as well.
The advantage here, you can control overall system volume at your fingers and also boost or cut sub volume as needed. It only requires 1 pair of RCA line from the HU and splits the signal into 3 pairs of RCA's.
(Front, Rear & Sub + a Master volume. It has a line driver to insure all amps get adequate audio signal power to each amp.
This unit also has several dials for EQ so one can cut/boost Bass, Mids and Highs as needed. It's very compact too. (1/2 Din in size) Think it over as this HU does not have many features that can tailor your sound as well as this little device can. It also has an AUX input source for I-Pods, MP3 players or even DVD audio. They were selling off e-bay for about $60.00 (USD) Have a look:
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/process.html
Yes, you can also run dual RCA lined to the amps as noted. One pair to the front channel amp, T-130. The rear RCA's can be split with "Y" cables to feed your rear channel T-130 and the Jensen amp too. It will work OK this way, but you won't have as much stage contol as when using the EQ/LD mentioned above.
If you just want to use "Y" splitters, do this back at the amps. You have more room to work there and easy to hide the wiring later. Just a short pair of RCA patch cables are needed in this case.
Got all that?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 07:46:28
Damn, thats a fair amount of information!
So, it looks like you've twisted my arm Swez. I'm going to start looking for a Audiobahn Line Driver. I found one in the states, but the bastards won't send overseas. I don't understand how, if you're going to be posting the item anyway, why can't I just pay the difference and they put an extra few stamps on the box?!
I do have a quick question. We've been talking about how the Picard takes around 300 - 350 watts RMS. But is that at 2 ohms of 4 ohms? Can you set an amp between 2 and 4 ohms? When looking at stats on amps, they always state e.g. 50watts at 4 ohms, and 120watts at 2 ohms.
You also mentioned that my sub box was the equivalent of fire wood, so what constitutes a well made sub box? Even in South Africa was had sub boxes made with chip board. Also, if I get a single sub box, where would you suggest mounting the 3 amps? I was thinking about turning the old sub box into a sort of mounting board.
Having looked on ebay for the Audiobahn Line Driver, and only finding one in the states, do you have some other decent options I can look for?
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 07:54:02
Something like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-CLARION-EQS-746-7-BAND-EQUALIZERS-7-EQ-EQS746_W0QQitemZ170114474675QQihZ007QQcategoryZ79841QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
swez on 05/24/2007 11:46:35
Yes, that Clarion has the same general features and a very good price as well. Good find!
I don't know a lot about your Picard sub other than what we have researched and passed back and forth already. From the picture I saw in one of your earlier posts, it's likely to be a 4 ohm sub. I saw only one set of speaker coil terminals on it, and most Singe Voice Coils, (SVC's) are 4 ohms. You can easily confirm that with an ohmeter. If you see an ohmic reading of say 3.4 - 3.6 ohms with your meter, it's a 4 ohm sub.
As for box materials to use, we prefer Medium Density Fiberboard. (3/4" MDF is plenty good for thickness here) It's easy to cut, moderate cost per sheet and very easy to tool as needed. Normal Partical Board can be used, but it has some deterimental properties too.
As for mounting your amps, there are many ways to do this. The best way is to use a flat piece of MDF board. Map out where you'd like to mount it and then figure out how to arrange the amps for best wiring of all amps. (Power, grounds, RCA's, Remotes and probably a good Power Distribution Block too)
The D-block makes things very clean and simple to connect multiple amps to one location. In your case, a D-block with 1/0 or 2x4 gage inputs are good and 3-4 x #8 outputs. If you are not familiar with D-blocks, have a look here:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-lCXuDqYawU5/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=715&I=211DBX3448&search=Power+Distribution+Blocks (General details)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/211/211DBX3448.PDF (Manual)
There is more to get you home, but not wanting to get the cart before the horse here.
Swez
PS Are you familiar with relay controlled devices? It looks like you'll need one for 3 Amp REMotes and the EQ/LD part of the circuit too. These are not expensive, but will add a bit more effort to your install as you progress. We can walk you through it. No need to fret... you're OK here and we'll see ya through.
PSS Do you use PayPal? I ask as we, (CK) are in need of some operating funds soon. If yes, this is easy to donate to CK needs as you feel appropriate. No, we don't ask an arm, leg or 1st born child... but a few Euro's/English pounds are very appropriate for this level of support. What say you?
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 14:46:47
Okay, I'm thinking of just buying the material and making the box myself. It shouldn't be the hardest thing in the world. Seeing as though I missed the boat on the T130 on ebay, I've found a second amp, something quite similar for a good price to power the front octane's with tweeters. Or I could use the T130 I have now, to power those and use this amp to power the 6x9's. Here are the details, let me know what you think:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270120526742&rd=1&rd=1
Specifications
RMS Power (at 14.4V,20Hz-20kHz)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 40W x 2 (0.08% THD)
Per channel into 2 ohms- 60W x 2 (0.3% THD)
Bridged 4 ohms- 120W x 1 (0.3% THD)
10% THD Power (at 14.4V)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 60W x 2 (1kHz)
MAX Power (at 14.4V,EIAJ)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 90W x 2
Bridged 4 ohms- 240W x 1
I'm guessing that should be enough to run either decently.
I've also found this power distribution block (should I be using fused or non-fused?):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Power-Ground-Distribution-Block-2x4-AWG-4x8-AWG-Out_W0QQitemZ250077602401QQihZ015QQcategoryZ14932QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
or something heavier:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDIOPIPE-AGU-POWER-DISTRIBUTION-BLOCK-PDC1414_W0QQitemZ270121363205QQihZ017QQcategoryZ50550QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem
I'm not familiar with relay controlled devices, but I did wonder if we were going to end up daisy chaining the remote wires. Do you have any in particular you could point me to?
And yeah, I am going to donate to the site. The information I've receieved so far, is far more than I would have by just speaking to a local tech, and its also quality advise. The guys around here, would take my car, re-connect everything as it was, and hand it back to me saying something like, if I want better sound, they're going to have to re-do the whole system. Should hopefully be able to donate at the end of next week or the week after.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/24/2007 16:55:10
This Alpine (Flex 2) would be best used to power your rear speakers if you get it. Use the stronger amp, (T-130) for your front Octane speakers. This is a new e-bayer that is selling and his approval rating is a very low 80% positive feedback. Check out the negative comment listed on his account and consider that before you buy.
The Voodoo D-block is fine if all your amps have fuses in them already. Fused D-blocks are nice when using amps that don't have their own fuses.
With 3 amps and perhaps that Clarion EQ/LD, that's 4 devices in all that need REMote turn on leads. Most HU's will support 2 devices and be OK. Here, a relay is almost a must. Here's a good primer on how relays are used: (Use the single pole, single throw version)
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
These are very low cost devices and easy to get the Bosch automotive relay, (Or OEM equivilent) at any good auto parts stores in the USA. ($3.00)
Study the diagram well as you will be working with a few extra wires here. The output side of the relay can supply up to 30 amperes of current to drive all REMote turn on circuits. However, for the items noted, the main power feed line will only need about 3-5 amperes of current. (Yes, you can daisy-chain all amps off the relay as mentioned)
Use an inline fuse as noted, between the HU REMote wire and the relay. The "quenching diode" is a very good idea to protect your HU REMote circuit when the relay is shut off by the HU. If you don't use that diode, the system will still work, but the diode will protect your HU circuit from the reverse inductive voltage spike very well.
Again, read this one over carefully until you have a clear picture in your mind how to use one. It can be in the dash, wired back where the amps live or any point it between.
Cheers,
Swez
PS Am glad you feel comfortable with our little site. We are very newbie friendly, rated PG for a good reason and operate off of donations and limited advertising. When one donates, they get a gold star noting they are a site contributor. How cool is that? CLAP
Dreamerrr on 05/25/2007 06:13:18
So on your advise about the e-bay seller's feed back, I didn't get the amp. I do know of a second T130 that is going up on ebay in the next few days which I'll keep my eyes on.
I'm pretty confortable with the relay idea. I looked through the link you posted, and understand why it's nessesary. Now I guess the idea is to get all the smaller parts together while I look for the bigger parts ie, the EQ/LD, amp and sub box.
Just thinking of the smaller things, please correct me if I'm wrong, but heres what I'm going to be looking to buy:
VooDoo D-Block (non fused)
relay - single pole, single throw version
quenching diode
inline fuse for the relay wire (did you mean the quenching diode is the fuse?)
various crimps, clips and rings for wiring later on. (What size should I get for the power, remote, and speaker wires?)
I'll hopfully be able to get all of those on Sunday.
Cheers,
Bryan
PS I haven't received a gold star since school ;)
swez on 05/25/2007 08:58:16
It may be good that you passed on that Alpine Flex 2 for now. When we see low feedback numbers, (Well below 97%) it's either a new e-bayer who has to learn the biz or a bad apple.
Right now, you can gather up your basic parts and begin the "pre-wire phase". Once that is done, everything you buy later will drop right in. This stuff adds up fast. Some install kits come with most items and are usually lower in cost that buying separates.
Here's the basic parts list you'll be gathering: (the basics)
1. Main Power Cable: #4 gage line from BAT to D-block (A length that will reach from the engine compartment to your amp location plus a few extra feet to hide it. [4-5 meters long should do it] A terminal ring on the battery post connection is recommended. (#4 gage ring)
2. Main power inline fuse and holder: (For this install, I'd suggest an 80 - 100 amp ANL type fuse, close to the battery... 0.5 meters or closer) Like these: [you may already have one in the original install kit)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STIGANL80PT
http://www.cardomain.com/item/LITLSFHANL2
3. Voodoo D-block as noted
4. #16 gage "speaker wire": (About 5 meters should do it, from amp in rear to HU harness for front speakers and some left over for rear speakers too)
5. #12 gage speaker wire from sub amp to sub (1 meter should do it)
6. #8 gage power line: (Enough to reach each amp off the D-block)
7. #8 gage grounding line: (About 3 meters is all you should need) Each amp will have its own ground wire. It is best to find a location for the grounding point that keeps each wire under 1 meter or less.
8. 3 x #8 gage ring terminals for your grounds
9. Bosch relay: 12 volt type, SPST (Some come with a "quenching diode installed, otherwise, you'll need to put one in manually)
10. Inline fuse holders:
a. One for the HU REMote to relay: 1.0 A's
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=070-609
b. A larger current version for the main power line on relay: 10 - 15 A's is adequate here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=070-675
11. REMote feeder line: #16 gage stranded wire is fine. You can buy it in bulk, (Blue or Purple) and just cut to lengths and use butt or barrel connectors as needed. (Off the HU to relay and relay to amp area)You can now daisy chain each amp as needed.
How are you set for RCA cables now? Use what you have and I can suggest other add on as needed. If you are handy with a soldering pencil, you can just buy bulk coaxial wire and solder type RCA males and make your own to custom lengths. (I often use #16/18 gage coaxial wire for these. See this link for details:
http://www.bcae1.com/rcacable.htm
OK, this is a good start. Check what you already have on hand from the previous install. If parts are in good shape, use them over again and save some time and money.
Comments?
Dave
PS OK, the Gold Star may seem a bit cheezy, but the idea is pretty simple... we recognise our contributors for their support. It may take a few days to have your name listed and the Gold star is posted to your name, but it will ID you as a site contributor.
PSS The guys with Gold Medallions are the Go-Too guys for quality information and feedback. Yes, we have a few non-Golds that are well qualified to give excellent advice too. They just have not been around long enough to merit the Gold Medallion is all.
Dreamerrr on 05/27/2007 17:27:45
Okay, so after fumbing around a major car store in my area, all I managed to come up with was 5 meters of #16 gauge speaker wire, some speaker connectors, and some measurements of a 12" sub box they have there.
I asked about the bosch relay, and they said that they didn't have any. I asked about inline fuses, and they have, but I wasn't sure which ampage to get. I found from 5 amps to 30 amps. You said for the remote, I should get 1.0A's, did you mean a 1 amp inline fuse? I do already have an inline fuse on the main power wire from the battery (about 30 cm from it). They also didn't have any 4# gauge power wire.
They had a D-block, but didn't have the correct input points.
As I mentioned above, I found a sub box, took some measurements, but can't remember the formula from school to work out something's volume that has a wedge on it. I don't suppose you can remember swez?
The measurements are:
Width = 17.5 inches
Heigh = 14.5 inches
Base Depth = 12.5 inches
Top Depth = 8.74 inches
The sub box looks well made, and also comes with a well made price tag to match, but it would be a qulity addition to the system.
I also have a fair amount of the wire I need for the remote wires and power wires left from the last install.
I do have a question about the relay. I found the following on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OEM-SPDT-Relay-Socket-12V-DC-30-40-AMP-Bosch-Style_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33724QQihZ010QQitemZ200113161811QQrdZ1
Now, it comes with a fair few wires (4), however, if this is for the relay, then what do we end up connecting to what? And what ampage relay am I looking for?
I'll be looking at ordering the Clarion EQ this week, as well as hopfully getting the amp that I need. Then hopfully we can start putting things together. What is used to power the Clarion EQ?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/27/2007 19:42:52
Quote: "I asked about the bosch relay, and they said that they didn't have any. I asked about inline fuses, and they have, but I wasn't sure which ampage to get. I found from 5 amps to 30 amps. You said for the remote, I should get 1.0A's, did you mean a 1 amp inline fuse? I do already have an inline fuse on the main power wire from the battery (about 30 cm from it). They also didn't have any 4# gauge power wire.
Reply:
1. That Bosch relay shown in your link is the correct one. It's a bit over-kill on the amperage rating, but yes, it will work just fine. These are easlily found at a good autoparts store for cheap. (~$3.00 USD)
2. Need a 1 amp fuse and holder between the HU REMote line and your relay solinoid connection. This protects the HU REMote circuit from excess current that would normally blow the chip.
3. On the Constant Battery feed line to the relay, a simple 10-20 amp fuse is plenty.
4. Your main power line for the amps to battery should be minimally a #4 gage line. A #2 line would be better if you can find some. If the D-block has dual #4 input line ports, can still use #2 wire here, but have to strip back the insulation enough to tease out enough stranded wires to fill each #4 port and seal off exposed wire.
Quote: "As I mentioned above, I found a sub box, took some measurements, but can't remember the formula from school to work out something's volume that has a wedge on it. I don't suppose you can remember swez?
Reply: Need to know the board thickness used to get the proper internal volume. I'll give you 5/8" and 3/4" board calcs.
5/8" thickness: 1.1 ft^3 is internal of this box
3/4" thickness: 1.03 ft^3
If you want to use this auto calc, I find it very reliable. This page gives details and plug in your numbers for sealed, ported, rectangles, full wedge, modified wedge and round enclosures. A Port calculator is also available:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#wed
Quote: "Now, it comes with a fair few wires (4), however, if this is for the relay, then what do we end up connecting to what? And what ampage relay am I looking for?
Reply: That relay you showed from E-bay is good. It even has the pigtail wire and harness attachment to make things easier. This one is rated 30-40 amperes. You won't need that much power, but it will work out fine.
As for wiring the relay, remember the link I gave a few threads up. That is your guide. See the section marked out as the Bosch Relay in the middle of this link:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
Pin 86 is connected to HU Remote line (1 amp fuse here)
Pin 30 connects to +12 volt battery (10 amp fuse is good here and you can use the D-block for a Constant +12 volt source too)
Pin 85 is to ground
Pin 87 feeds your amp REMote turn on lugs and can be daisy chained
Pin 87a is not used
Quote: " What is used to power the Clarion EQ?"
Reply: This has 3 power wires.
A. Constant +12 volt
B. Ground
C. REMote turn on lead
The RCA outputs are pretty straight up too.
1. One pair of RCA inputs from your HU front channel RCA's
2. One pair RCA's to front channel amp
3. One pair RCA's to rear channel amp
4. One pair RCA's to sub amp
As for spare wiring on hand, use what you have as needed. If you have a long length of #8 gage line, this can be cut to fit from your D-block outputs to each amp inputs. (3-4 feet per amp should do it)
Each amp also needs a #8 gage grounding wire. All amps should be gronded to the same location and keep the lines as short as is practical. (2-3 feet is plenty)
The Remote line can be #18 gage wire or larger if that's all you have. If you wire the relay near the amps, less wire is needed. The longest wire will be the REMote output line from the HU to the relay.
Whew... this is another long posting Mang... you ask a lot of questions. (But they are all good ones too) It's all good and the results will be well worth it.
Keep it coming... Cheers to my new buddy in London, England
Dave
Dreamerrr on 05/29/2007 04:56:14
Hi Dave,
I've got a few questions for you. But right now, I'm just going to stick with the one that I need to get the correct cables. What is the diameter of a 4 gauge wire? If 16 gauge is 1.5mm, does that mean that the 4 gauge is 6mm? I just have to check if I've got the correct gauge running from the battery right now (from the previous install).
Also, if i'm getting a D-Block with 2 x 4 gauge inputs, does that mean I have to have 2 4 gauge power wires running off the battery or do I split them at the D-Block?
Also, in your experience, what length cable would reach from the HU to the boot (trunk)?
Cheers,
Bryan
jamesp on 05/29/2007 08:03:05
Dreamerrr, here is a link showing metric and other conversions from AWG (American Wire Guage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Table_of_AWGs_and_approximate_corresponding_sizes
swez on 05/29/2007 10:50:30
#4 gage is 0.2043 inches or 5.189mm in diameter. With the insulation jacket, it will be a little larger when using calipers to measure the wire.
Use the chart noted by JamesP and you'll see all the common gage numbers, resistance per foot and such. (Thanks Jimmy... good call)
That double 4 D-block may come in handy if you upgrade to larger amps in the future. Then you can run dual #4 wires and that equals a #2 gage line in current carry ability and very low resistance per foot. Right now, only one #4 line is needed for this present rig.
Length of wire varies a lot depending on how one routes the wire. In most cases, knowing the length of your vehicle and adding about 6-8 feet more, you should have enough. In your case ~20 feet or 6 meters should be sufficient.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/29/2007 11:26:15
Thanks James. Wikipedia is an amazing site. I should have looked there first.
Dave, is this the correct relay I should get?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-DC-SPST-10A-RELAY-LOW-PROFILE-PCB-MOUNTING-TYPE_W0QQitemZ170115267832QQihZ007QQcategoryZ42899QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Looks like I've found the correct diode to connect from a place called Maplin. I've also bought the Clarion and am awaiting delivery, as well as the 1A inline fuse for the remote wire (from Maplin). So everything is starting to build up. I'll get that sub box I mentioned this week-end, then all we'll be waiting for is the extra amp.
Does the Clarion EQ come with something so that you can mount them in the dashboard? I've got a free space near the gear lever (uh, stick shift as I believe you guys call it) which I thought would be a better location than under the driver's seat.
Cheers,
B
swez on 05/29/2007 12:02:00
That relay will not work for your install. It is designed for mounting to PC boards and you'd have a very difficult time soldering wires to this one. DO NOT BUY THIS ONE.
This is the style of relay you need:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Marine-engine-power-trim-relays-Bosch-12V-relays-boat_W0QQitemZ180123553095QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15263QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
As for mounting this EQ, not sure what comes in the package for mounting hardware. If you have a dash opening or console pocket at the gear shift/gear lever, that would be a good spot if it fits. This unit is small and light weight. You can even use dual sided stick tape strips if you like, after the wires are secured and placement is where you can make adjustments on the fly as needed.
Don't hide it under the seat as you'll want to have easy access to the controls as you drive. Most guys who use these are constant tweakers and want easy access to the controls on the EQ. Yes, for those who are less picky, one can set it and forget it too. If that is your preference, then it would be fine to mount back near the amps and set it once and forget it.
This would save you considerable time and money on RCA cables. But then you'll lose the "on the fly" adjustments many of us SQ guys demand.
FYI: Have you ever noticed when listening to several CD's, one cut sounds great and no adjustments to EQ are needed. Then, the next track from the same set of musicians sounds terrible and we reach for the tone controls to get the right sound?
That's why I strongly suggest mounting this unit where you can make adjustments as you drive w/o having to look at it. (With time and experience, one can make desired adjustments when blindfolded)
Cheers mate,
Swez
PS Gear lever is a good term as that is what it does. Somehow American's opted for "Stick Shift" as the preferred term. Ahhh, what do we know about proper King's English? American's were generally rebels from the start. That's why our forefathers left "not -so-jolly" ol England. Many were misfits, anarchists and outcasts in that era or wanted more religious freedom then found under the crown.
If we look at 200+ years of history, it turns out that America has done well to separated from our Mother Country. (England) However, we have since grown up a bit, mended broken ties and have become good supporters to England in her times of need. (WW I & WW II) Now, the Brits and Americans are tight on many key issues, but divided on others. I often wonder what our UK brothers think about thier bratty and often brash American counterparts? (Tony Blair and George Bush ect?)
Dreamerrr on 06/5/2007 04:56:48
Hey. Just a quick update to let you guys know what I've been upto over the past week or so.
I've managed to buy the relay(s) (thanks for the link swez), the quenching diode (got two of them), the remote in-line fuse with 1amp fuse, several hundred ring connectors, another T-130, a 12" sub box and the clarion eq, all of which should be arriving anyday now.
Once I've got the clarion, I'll have a look to see where the best place for fitting it is, and then I'll be able to decide what length cabling I'm going to need. I've got an e-bay store which has all the cabling I need for the install, so I'll make a bulk order from them and hopfully get a small shipping discount.
So now, I'm almost at the point of install, and so increably geeked out on car sound that my girl friend hates me right now... ;)
I'll let you know when it's all here. Can you feel the excitment? - B.
swez on 06/5/2007 09:16:20
Very good progress to date Dream...
Uhmmm, we all know that car audio systems are "chick chasers". When doing such extensive projects, there's little time and money left for dating. (She's feeling neglected, put on the back burner and out of the loop) Just calmly explain that you are in a new project that demands a lot of time, concentration and funds to pull it off well. Try to make 1 date night each week while in this project and explain that it will not be like this forever.
If she does not respect that, whines and gives ya a raft of crap about it, you have a good idea where her emotional needs are and can extrapolate that into what to expect in a serious, long-term dating scenario that might lead to marriage later. If you two cannot learn to compromise now, it only gets worse later.
Choose wisely now,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/6/2007 08:39:07
Hey Swez,
Yeah, the missus is fine. She knows I like to imerse myself in a project.
Okay, so I'm now starting to get everything together (recieved the Clarion and the relay) for the install and would like to go over how I'm going to connect everything. So if you don't mind, I'll repeat some of the things said before but just to be sure on everything:
Power:
4 gauge to 15A inline fuse, then to the D. Block.
D. Block (3 x 8 gauge) to each amp.
From battery, a 16 gauge power wire to the EQ (I think), do I need a 10A fuse here?
Ground from each amp (3x 8 gauge) to the ground point.
ground from the EQ to a ground point.
Remote:
From HU to 1A inline fuse, then into the relay, then into the EQ.
From the EQ (daisy chain) into the Jensen and daisy chained to the first of the T-130's then into the second T-130.
RCAs:
0.5m RCA from HU to EQ
3 x 5m RCA's from EQ to each amp
1 x 5m RCA from the CD changer to the HU
Then, about the settings on all the amps and on the EQ. When setting up all the amps, do I have to turn the boost all the way down or keep it all the way up, and then adjust it only on the EQ? Also there is a frequency option on top of the EQ, I think the options are 60 to 90? Which one should it be on, as well as each amp (as I think they also have the same option)? What about the bass boost option? On or Off for each amp?
Also, I have to setup the quenching diode. So, having looked at that site above, I noticed that you connect the diode from the ground to the positive, with the bar (on the diode) sitting on the positive side. And when I say connect, I solder the diode onto the relay? Is that correct?
With the EQ, I got a 1A 240volt fuse. should I use that on the relay side of things? Or I have an inline fuse for both the reomte (1A), and the positive wire (10A)?
I think thats about it... is there anything that I've missed?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/6/2007 09:16:03
Do you have Power Point to read and make drawings with? Pictures are so much easier, though they take longer to map out.
Yes, the quenching diode is best soldered as noted in the diagram at bcae1 site. (Between relay coil and REMote feeder line) Basically a one way switch.
Here's a general method that will work for most installs:
HU/EQ power wiring:
1. REMote on HU to relay coil only (1A inline fuse between HU and relay coil)
2. Relay needs a separate power lead that is constant +12 volts (fuse this too @ 10A's or less)
3. Relay output lead goes to power your amp REMotes (Daisy chain is good) You can fuse this low too... 5-10A's)
4. EQ needs a good ground (Same as HU ground is good, to floor pan or bare metal in dash
EQ to amps: (Signal level RCA's)
1. One short pair RCA's from HU to EQ input (Front channel HU tap is fine)
2. Three pairs of RCA outputs from EQ to respective amps (Front, rear and sub amps respectively
3. If EQ and amps have HP/LP filters, use the amp filters only
4. For initial setup steps, use NO bass boost functions on all amps or EQ (Set HU tone controls to "flat" for now. (No cut/boost as the EQ will do this for you later in the tweaking stages)
5. Set HPF's on front and rear channel amps to 80 Hz for now (Can be tweaked later as needed)
6. Set LPF on sub amp to 80 Hz for now too (Can be tweaked later as needed)
I'll stop here and see how well you can interpret and digest the given info so far. After this is well understood, we'll proceed to power wiring, fusing shemes to your D-block/amps and grounding of amps.
This D-block mentioned, is it the 2x #4 gage inputs and 4 x #8 outputs noted before? (Voodoo D-Block)
Swez
PS Confirm your undertsanding of this info and if you wish, make a block diagram to insure we both have a clear picture of the methods noted above.
Dreamerrr on 06/6/2007 19:30:27
Hi Swez,
I've just put together a quick map of what I think should go where:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/Asembly_small.jpg
I've just had a closer look at the two different types of AMPs, and the two T-130's have OFF, High pass and Low pass options. Should I turn them off, or as you've said above? And on the Clarion what do I set the Selectable 60/90 Hz Low-Pass Crossover to be on? Here is a pic of what I'm talking about:
http://www.mchiptr.com/media/products/main/EQS746.jpg
As I'm not going to be upgrading for a while after this system is finished, I opted for the voodoo 1 x 4awg in, and 4 x 8awg out D. Block.
Thanks,
Bryan
swez on 06/7/2007 06:51:58
Your schematic is correct and well done too. The only error I see is the main fuse off the BAT to your D-block. It shows a 15A fuse near the battery. THIS SHOULD BE AN 80-100A fuse here. (ANL style fuse and holder are your best bet here)
On your EQ LPF, use the 90 Hz. setting to feed your Jensen/Picard sub. Set the LPF on the Jensen amp to ~80 Hz and adjust as needed later.
On your Alpine 130's, set the HPF feature to 80 Hz. This will allow all highs to pass above 80 Hz, to your mid/high speakers.
The #4 gage main line should be enough to feed all 3 amps well as each amp gets a #8 power and ground. (Good to go there)
Other than that, things are in good shape.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/12/2007 10:47:00
Hi Swez,
Thought I'd give you a quick update.
I've started installing everything which is taking longer than I thought it was going to. I've put the sub into the new sub box, finally managed to get most of the correct wiring which I need, and started to rip off my dash board to figure out what does where.
I've got a few quick questions. I needed alittle extra wiring for the remote wire, and all I could find over lunch was some 20/0.2 wire. Will this be large enough for the remote? I was also thinking of using it for the power and gnd of the EQ. Now having bought a small amount of the wire, I noticed that it's not copper inside, its a kind of silver wire? I'm guessing that it's used in computer applications and not sure it's a good idea for the application I'm using it for.
I'll be taking some photos when I get home of the install.
I've also got a few parts still on order, like the soldering iron, and a connector for the main power wire (battery side).
Cheers,
Bryan
PS I also got the 80 AMP power wire fuse. I can't believe that more places around london don't stock these kind of components. It's absolutely amazing to me that I have to order from somewhere up country to get the correct parts!?
swez on 06/12/2007 13:38:45
Ahhh, making good progress and yes, to do this well, it's a long process indeed. But when all is said and done, you should be very happy with the results after all the tweaks are made.
As for the Remote extetion line, #20 gage is OK as this is a very low wattage feeder to amps and EQ Rems. Copper is best for conductivity, but silver or pre-tinned copper works well too. Aluminum wire should be avoided however. Why? "Galvanic effects"... when 2 dissimilar metals are joined, oxides will form and eventually become a problem and that circuit will become problematic.
I would not use #20 gage line to power and ground the EQ. Use #16-18 gage wires here for best results. One can buy any gage bulk wire at the local hardware stores here in the States. You can buy color coded wires or standard lamp cord, or speaker cables too. Just note polarity when using lamp or speaker cord. In most cases, we get speaker wire that is easy to ID. One line is often copper and the other is tinned copper. (Silvery look to it)
Tech Tip: For car audio apps, always use strand wire and never solid core wires. Solid core is only good for fixed installs like phone cables and home/commercial/industrial applictaions which are installed in conduits.
What is the airspace for that sub enclosure you bought for your Picard sub anyway? If sealed, I would hope to see 1.0 Ft^3 +/- 0.25 ft^3.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 06/12/2007 15:30:22
If you have to use lamp cord you can maintain proper polarity by looking closley at the insulation, one conductor has tiny ribs on the insulation and the other is smooth. Even the clear lamp wire has the ribs but they are hardest to see. Most clear has one conductor tinned so it looks silver in color.
Dreamerrr on 06/13/2007 11:46:39
Alright... I'll have to organise some decent 16 gauge for the power.
I remember somewhere earlier in the post, someone mentions that the reason why sometimes you get the engine noise in the sound, is because wires are either really close to each other, or crossing... something like that, but what wasn't said was if I should split the RCA's to go down one side of the car, and the power cables down the other, and if that would help?
Jamesp - I'm not too sure what you mean about using the lamp cord. You mentioned that it's got an insulation side, and a smooth side, but if I look at the wire (either blue, brown or green), I don't see a smooth or tiny ribbed side. Could you explain?
Thanks,
Bryan
swez on 06/13/2007 12:23:13
To eliminate "ground loops" that cause engine noise in the audio system, it is best to run the main power line feeder on one side of the vehicle and RCA signal cables on the other side. The general rule of thumb is 18" apart or more.
Lamp cord is common and it has 2 wire jackets fused together. (2 conductor) The American Wire Gage Society, AWG... stipulates that the jackets have some form of ID markings for polarity ID. In most cases, one side of the pair is smooth and round. The other side can be ribbed or have a flat indent on the jacket. Some wires even have stamped information to help with polarity ID.
It's better to use 2-3 colored wires when running lines where polarity issues are a concern. (DC circuits and speaker cables) The most common colors, (Colours for you Brits) are:
Ground: Black or green
Constant +12 volts: Yellow
ACC switched +12 volts: Red
Hope that helps,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/13/2007 16:08:21
Thanks.
I've just check the measurements of the box, and I'm not sure that I'm correct in calculation. Here are my measurements:
Width - 85cm
Height - 36cm
Depth 1 - 17.5cm
Depth 2 - 27.5cm
I converted those measurements into inches using google, and then entered them into the web page link you mentioned above. The result came back 1.72259 cubic feet. But somehow I just don't think it's correct. When I was putting the sub into the box, it only just managed to fit in. And if the calculations are correct what does that mean for the sound quality?
I've taken some pictures, which I'll post abit later of the install.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/13/2007 17:03:51
Bryan,
OK, I ran some numbers too and depending on the board thickness used in this box, we have a range of 1.6 to 1.7 ft^3 minus the sub displacement. (Say about 0.07ft^3)
Since we do not have the T/S parameters of this sub, am thinking this sub will sound boomy and have sluggish bass response in a sealed box that is over 1.2 ft^3 internally. One can compensate for this by adding blocks of wood to decrease the internal airspace of the box, if that is indeed the case.
I suggest you try the box as is and go easy on the power you throw at this Picard sub initially. If the sub begins to show signs it's getting too sloppy and wild excursions, then adding internal blocks is the next step.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/14/2007 04:54:12
Thanks Swez,
As usual, I have a quick question. For the normal un-educated ear, what should I be listening for that would make the sub sloppy with wild excursions? Do I take a song that I know well and listen for differences in the bass line? Or if the bass isn't acurate to the front mid's bass line?
Cheers,
Bryan
PS the board thickness is 3/4".
swez on 06/14/2007 11:22:23
OK, if the board is 3/4", you're down to 1.6 ft^3.
Yes, listen for chrisp, well defined bass on music you know well. Electronica type music has some of the more purer tones if the bass lines are fast changing and use keyboard based tone generators. (Synth-bass) This is good for accuracy and response capabilities if the bass engine.
Jazz cuts can give a sub a good workout too. One I like a lot is a bass solo off Yanni's "Live at the Acropolis" CD. This guy is fantastic on his riffs, use of harmonics and slap bass techniques. (Track #4: The Rain Rust Fall) His solo starts at 3:50 and Wow... this fella has talent. Although there is not a lot of low bass in this solo, it moves fast and a very good test for sub response and accuracy in rapid transitions.
If you listen to deep bass tones that are common to Rap and Hip Hop, "cone whop" or "brapping" sounds tell us the sub cannot handle the juiced up bass at higher SPL levels.
If the suspension system, (Spider, surround and dampening of the motor system is weak) it does not have enough resistance and the larger airspace is not able to provide enough back pressure to keep the cone within normal operating limits. Hense, we often hear mechanical noise from the sub that will eventually destroy itself.
Lastly, in larger boxes, bass lines are sloppy in the transitions from one octave to 3rds and 5ths above and below. Most subs will sound pretty good at say 55 Hz. (That's low "A" open on a 4 string bass) But as we drop to the lowest string, "E" open, this is where subs can fall apart. The transitions between like low "G" and "F" show the shortfalls in any poorly designed sub, enclosure or EQ methods.
Swez
PS I gave a lot more information than you may be able to understand at the moment. However, there are others that may be tracking this post as well, (Lurker's) and they too may benefit from the extra details. We have a lot of silent readership here and I want to address them as well as your specific needs.
Dreamerrr on 06/17/2007 19:18:55
Thanks Swez, I think that the more details the better, as most of us are trying to learn about sound. I've already found that there is more to car sound than I thought was possible, and I'm sure from here, it gets even more complicated.
I'm about to start work on the relay and quneching diode. However, I'd just like to double check something that I'm not 100% certain on. On the webite mentioned above, there is a diagram of the quenching diode being connected inbetween the positive and negative terminals, but in the picture lower down the page, it doesn't seem like the diode is connected to the positve and ground wires (I'm only going on the colour of the wires), so I'd like to 100% certain that I should be connecting the diode between the 30 (pos) and 85 (gnd) with the striped end on the positive side?
Also, I've been thinking about the bridging of the Jensen amp. What exactly do I have to do to bridge the two channels? Is it just a switch I have to flick? Or do I have to join the two channels with wires that go to the sub?
So far I've managed to get most the power wires done and installed into the left hand side of the car. Tomorrow I should have enough time to finish the install (RCA's and EQ install). Can't wait!
I've taken some pictures but am having problems getting on to the photo bucket wesite, so I'll take some more tomorrow and will post the rest of the install photos as well.
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 06/17/2007 19:22:52
Here are the pictures I finally managed to upload. Just some of the car in a slight disassembled state and what she looks like from the outside:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior05.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior04.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior03.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior02.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior01.jpg
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/17/2007 22:05:53
The Quenching diode is connected to pins 85 and 86 on this relay. If you look at the diagrams at bcae1, it shows one end of the diode goes from the HU REMote pin to ground.
Pin 85 is HU Remote
Pin 86 is ground
A diode is a simle one-way switch. It allows power to flow in only one direction and blocks power from flowing in the reverse direction. In this application, Pin 85 is the power supply feed from the HU REMote. When the HU is switched on, the REM also powers up the coil in the relay and closes the contacts of the relay so that your add on devices now get power from the AUX power feed line. (Pins 87 & 30 and ground, which is Pin 86) Are you still with me on this?
The side of the diode with the dark band is soldered to pin 85.
The opposite side of the diode is soldered to pin 86.
Here's how it works:
When the HU is turned on, the diode will pass current from the HU REM to the relay coil and energize the coil. When the coil is energized, it completes a circuit that energizes pin #30. Now we have much power to feed other devices w/o damage to the HU REM.
When we shut off the HU. The REM power line stops providing power to the coil and the coil will open up again. (Open circuit) Now, the devices connected to Pin #30 also shut off.
However, when the relay coil loses power, the energy stored in the coil needs a place to drain safely to ground and not back to the HU REM supply transistor. (This technique is called reverse EMF shunting)
Tech Tip: Relay coils produce a voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses. (Rever EMF) This reverse flow of current can damage the HU REM chip. To prevent that, we use the quenching diode to direct this spike safely to ground and not back to the HU.
OK, I took the long route on explaining how to use the "Quenching Diode" here. I hope it is clear what it does, how to use it properly and why it's important. If you wish, make a diagram and show me how you have interpreted the use of the relay and diode in this application. I will review it and double check your work before you install it later OK? If you got the details right, the diagram will confirm your understanding or confusion. (This is not easy for non- electrical guys to understand) If we need to go over it again in picture form, no prob.
Swez - COFFEE -
swez on 06/17/2007 23:03:28
About bridging the Jensen amp, here's a copy of the manual for that amp. Print a copy for your files and look on page 8 for the proper way to bridge your amp to the 4 ohm Picard sub:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/110/110XA2250.PDF
L+ goes to sub + terminal
L- not used
R- to sub - terminal
R+ not used
LPF enabled
LPF setting is ~80-100 Hz.
Bass Boost: Should not need it, but can if desired
FYI: You may wish to start looking for some add on tweeters for the Octane front speakers mentioned before. This will add a lot to the Hi-Fi clarity in the front stage of your ride. (Good mids and much better Highs)
A 3/4" - 1.0" surface or flush mount system would be fine. I suggest soft dome textile or silk tweeters as these are more natural sounding than most metal dome tweeters. As for power handling, 30-50 watts RMS, 4 ohms is a good choice. The only thing needed would be passive filterin capacitors to block mids that would damage the tweeters. No need to spen huge money on these tweets either. $30.00 a pair should get the job done.
Once you have a set of tweeters you's like to use, I'll look at the specs and tell you what filtering caps to use.
Swez
PS You have been a most excellent student to date and I am enjoying the process and progress you have made. HAPPY
Look at how much you have learned already!!! Yes, there's more to come, but when you are done, this system is going to sound so much better than you would have ever guess was possible with the gear you have now. This is going to be a real big step up from the prior system install. CLAP
I looked at your pics and you are doing a great job at dismantling the dash and wire runs should be easier with all the panels removed.
Have you found a good spot for your Clarion EQ yet?
Dreamerrr on 06/18/2007 08:34:56
Hi Swez...
Okay, so I spent alot of yesterday installing the wiring, ripping my hands to pieces. Lesson for the day - bare metal is sharp...
So far, I've managed to lay down all the RCA's, and all the power lines, as well as the remote. What still has to be done, is make a mounting board for the two T-130's and maybe the CD changer if I can fit it on. The Jensen has been mounted on the rear of the sub box to save alittle space around the other amps, then I have to connect up the relay and quenching diode, lay the right hand side speaker cable for the front mid, and then just connect the power to the battery, although I'm waiting for everything to be setup before I hit the power switch.
Yes I have found a place for the Clarion. Just in front of the gear lever (stick shift).
I had something alittle strange happen yesterday. After I finished install of the cabling, I took a look at the head unit. Now, I didn't mention before that I had a second head unit connected in my car, which was a kenwood with D-Mask, as some of the connections in the face had faults, and there was no display. So, I removed the 2nd HU, and took a look at the wiring harness which was jacked to the 1st HU's harness. I carefully disconnected all the wires that were jacked into the 1st HU's harness (and this is when the problem comes in), I took the HU, plugged it in, and... wait for it... NOTHING... Just like there is absolutely no power getting to it. Now my question is if there is something other than the power wire that could affect the HU not switching on?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/18/2007 15:45:35
Hello Bryan,
Yes, running wires in tight places with sharp metal all around, that's one thing we can count on... nicks, scatches and abrasions of all kinds. (I feel you pain... BTDT many times)
No power to your Sony HU? Does the engine start? After many hours of working with just dome lights and such on, this will sap a battery pretty low. If the car does start, let it run for a bit as it takes some time to recharge a very low battery.
The other thing to look for here, blown fuses. That would be the one in the fuse panel marked "Radio" in most cases and also look at the fuse in the HU to insure it's OK.
The HU will only turn on when the engine is running or the key is in the ACC/IGN positions. Otherwise, there is no power to turn the HU on.
This easiest way to wire an Aftermarket HU to a factory harness, is to use a harness conversion kit that is specific to your vehicle. These are low cost, easy to use and a real time saver. If you don't have one now, please do get one. Your's will look much like this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kO1YsQKacia/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=103000&tab=morephotos&pi=1&i=120701722&display=L#Tab
If you have this installed correctly and the HU is not working, time to pull out a 12 volt test probe or DMM and start probing for voltages off the following harness color codes:
Red = + 12 volt only when key is in ACC/IGN modes
Yellow = + 12 volts all the time
Black = Ground/Earth or return
Orange = Illumination (Connected to dash lighting or N/C)
Tech tip: The wires noted should have power and one end of the probe/clip is connected to body ground and the other probes each wire noted. With out a good ground, you'll get no readings or error readings.
If this is not happening, we need to look closer at the items noted above. This Sony HU was working before you started right. So, as long as nothing major has changed, (save for a dead battery of a blown fuse) it should be OK now right?
Oh, those Octane speakers up front, are they coaxial speakers? (Meaning, they have a midrange and tweeter in the same speaker basket? If yes, no need for add on tweeters. However, if there is only a midrange speaker and no tweeters, add on tweeters are highly recommended.
If you have any question about the Sony HU wiring codes, consult the manual and it will give you all the wire functions:
http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdxc6500r_manual/
Comments? Keep em coming,
Dave
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 06:08:48
Hi Swez,
So I've been working away, and I've got a mounting board for the amps now, so they're now in the boot (trunk), just waiting to be connected up. The only wire I've yet to install is the second front speaker wire, but I'll get around to that tonight.
I'm still having issues with the Head Unit. Yes, the car starts, and with the ignition turned on, but the HU stays dead. Very depressing. I'll be taking it around to the a car place that does sound over the week-end to see if anyone knows what the problem is. Unfortuantly, I don't have one of those volt testers, so I can't find where the proplem is.
Another question for you, for the GND wires of the relay and the EQ, I found a bolt that is already used as a ground for the battery. Now, I haven't connected the GND wire to the battery, but from the battery, there is a wire running to the frame, and I connected them there. Is that okay, seeing as though there is also a wire comming straight off the battery?
As for the Octane speakers, yeah, they are coaxial. Well, they do have a small tweeter looking thing in the middle of the cone. If I got some tweeters, would I have to connect them to the wires that are connected to front mids, or would I connect them to another amp?
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 06:56:31
Just one quick other thing I've been thinking about. Power. Running 3 amps, a sub, 6x9's and mids off of the battery, is that going to kill the battery? Will there be enough power to keep the battery charged as well running the sound, not to mention starting the car?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/22/2007 09:28:27
Hello Bryan,
Running 3 amps of this size should be managable for your car. These are not huge power hog amps, so they will not pose a major threat to your car electricals. The Jensen amp is the largest power consuming amp for your sub and depending on how hard you push the bass, that will determine the power drain on your system at large.
If the battery is more than 4-5 years old, it may be time to replace it soon. I would guess this car is probably on the 2nd battery and a few years on it at that. So, if it's weak now, it will show up more as an issue later. We can address that later as needed.
As for grounding your relay, almost all metal parts in a car are grounded. That means the floor pan, firewall and any metal parts welded or bolted to the chassis in the boot are good grounding sources. For ease of wiring, the relay can be mounted in the boot, near the amps and powered off one of your open ports in the D-block.
The ground used for your amps can be the same ground for your relay too. Yes, this means a long wire from the HU REMote, to the boot, (Where the relay is) but that's a very common practice too. Keep it simple and easy to install.
As for this HU not working now, something in the HU is not getting power from the main harness. It could be a poor ground to the HU, the Red or Yellow wires are not getting the +12 volts they need from the harness or a blown fuse. A good car audio tech should be able to diagnose and correct this in a matter of minutes. It may be as simple as a poor wiring splice in the dash area too. Aftermarket HU's need "dedicated grounds". (Do not use the factory harness ground alone as it is often shared by the dash instruments and other devices) Using the factory harness ground will often lead to noise and ground loop problems later. It's best to ground the HU to a good bare metal ground in the dash, firewall or floor pan.
Tech Tip: An electrical test meter is a very handy thing to have around. One can test AC/DC voltages, resistance of a load, use it as a continuity tester and more. It can also test how much voltage the amps are getting from the BAT/ALT and any voltage drops we may see at the amplifier voltage inputs. It is also a good tool to meansure AC signal voltage coming out of our amplifiers that feed the speakers and sub(s). We can buy low budget Digital meters in the US for $20.00. Here's a good example of a good, low cost DMM: (I use one similar to this a lot)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103174&cp=&sr=1&origkw=Multimeters&kw=multimeters&parentPage=search
Lastly, when the engine is running, the Alternator charges the battery and supplies power to all electrical devices in the vehicle. If the power draw of any electrical devices becomes larger than the ALT can manage on its own, it can borrow reserve power from the battery for short durations. (That's why they call it a storage battery)
If the dash intrument cluster has a voltage gage, we can tell at a glance how hard the charging system is working and/or if there is a failure pending too. When the system is healthy, we note a solid 13.5 volts on the gage or higher, when the engine is running and the ALT is charging properly. If the gage drops below ~12.5 volts, the system is having a hard time keeping up with power demands on the system.
When the engine is shut off, the gage will read about 12.0 - 12.5 volts. (Key in ACC/IGN modes) This is the voltage of the storage battery by itself. If the system drops below about 10.5 volts, the system has a problem and the car will eventually shut down and not start. This can indicate a failing ALT or battery.
Got all that now?
Swez
PS It is not a good idea to run our amps and such for very long on just the battery power alone. Yes, we can do this for a few minutes w/o a major drain on the battery. But when using our gear at high power levels, we need the engine running to provide the needed power for the amps used.
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 10:52:19
Hi Swez,
I've found this one, it should do the job right?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=37279&criteria=Multimeter&doy=22m6
Also, seeing as though I've already connected the grounds, would it be okay to leave them where they are (on the frame where the battery negative connects to the frame)?
I think I might have found the problem with the HU (hopfully). In reading through the manual, it states that if you're installing the HU for the first time, or for some reason the power went off (change of battery etc,.), then you have to hit the reset button. Now, I'm not sure that this is really the fix, but it's worth a try.
And i think that you're right about the battery. I think that I'll have to replace it within the next year. The car fires up after the first turn, but that first turn coming from the battery seems a little slow for my liking.
Also, in going through the manual for the HU, I couldn't find a page that details which wire does what. You mentioned that the two wires I should be looking for are the red and yellow wires? What are they for? Is there a standard to what the wires are?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/22/2007 19:42:50
Yep that meter will work! Good, simple and easy to use. When you get it, I can help you figure out how to use the key features. (AC volts, DC volts, Ohmic loads) In the mean time, read the "destructions" when you get the meter. Most come with helpful app notes. Others assume the user knows how to use it correctly.
The ground line you have should be OK. Just make sure it's connected down to bare metal and free of paint, rust or grime. When you get the meter, I can show you how to confirm if this ground is good or not. This ground can be used for the relay, HU and EQ/LD if you wish.
Hey, a side bar here... a clean copy of this HU manual:
http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sony/sony_europe/sony_MDX-C6500RV_operation_manual.pdf
Reset button, definitely a good call. Since the HU memory has been stored on a chip and the chip has lost power, the reset function on page 7 might be helpful. This is only the User's Manual. It is 32 pages in English and a diagnotics table at the end too. Pgs 29-31)
Hey, I was just looking at the manual for a Sony CDX-C6850 I have packed away in my garage. A buddy gave it to me when I did some install work for him. It has many of the same features as your HU but no MD player... just a CD slot and a few more features than your HU. I'll dig it out and have a look as these units are probably identical in wiring needs in many ways. (This one has 3 RCA preouts.... Front/Rear/Sub and HP/LP filters) Go figure huh... I don't have a copy of the Installer's manual though. Guess I'll go hunt it down and then can help you too. That manual has the wiring coloor codes and what goes where too. I would guess that most CDX-Cxxxx HU's are the same. Let's see what we can find on the installer manual side.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 12:30:31
Hi Swez,
Just a quick update for you. I've managed to find the problem with the power. It seems that when the last owner did the install, he cut into a wire for the GND of the HU, but didn't cut away the plastic properly. So, I reconnected the wire properly, and now everything works again.
I've also managed to install all the power wire, and connected them to the AMPs, with gnd's etc,. Now it's time to double check the relay wires and connect up the EQ. Everything is almost ready to go. Once I've connected all those up, I'll connect the main power to the battery, and we'll see if everything switches on.
Something I wanted to check with you though. In the rear of the HU, there are 3 RCA plugs. Firstly the input, which I used to plug the CD shuttle into, and the other two are outs for the front and rear speakers. I'm not sure on which one to use to the EQ. So far I've used the front out. Should I change this to the rear out?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/23/2007 13:19:20
Good, you found the HU issue!!! CLAP
As for the connections between the HU and EQ/LD, use the front channel RCA's from the HU to the input side of the EQ. From there, the EQA has output pairs to F,R & S amp channels and controls for each.
1. Master volume
2. Fade control (F/R balance)
3. Sub volume (Boost/cut sub output)
4. Mid/high EQ
5. Sub EQ
Think of the EQ/LD as a preamp mixer. It not only sends the proper signals to the correct amp assignment channels, but it also has EQ features and kicks up the input voltage to each amp used.
This EQ/LD does a lot. Your HU only supplies L/R channel audio signals and controls overall features like:
1. Source selection (AM/FM/MB, MD and CD Changer)
2. Audio signal volume from the HU
3. Basic Bass/Treble boost
4. REMote feed turn on signal to relay/amps
The EQ/LD pretty much does everything else.
1. 3 paired channels control (F/R & S)
2. Mixing/balancing full range signals (F/R & S)
3. EQ for Mid/high/sub
4. Gain matching of F/R & Sub channels
5. Master Gain control for Sub and full range amps
Got all that?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 14:16:21
Hi Swez,
Yip, got all that... I think that was the reason why I decided (or you convinced me) to go for the EQ. Basically, it was the EQ (which in itself is a really cool addition), but the HU didn't have enough control over the sound. So it was either, new HU, or cool toy add-on which was also cheaper than the new HU.
Okay, so, I've got some good news and some bad news. I've finished installing everything except one speaker cable (front right), turned on the ignition, switched on the CD, and NOTHING! Damn it! SAD Checked the amps... no power. So, I took the relay, and just connected the remote wires instead of going through the relay, and all three amps switched on (which is the good news GRIN PROUD ).
So I guess now, the problem lies in the relay some how. I've connected everything the way you mentioned above, and nothing.
Pin 85 is HU REMote
Pin 86 is GND
Pin 30 is POS
Pin 87 is EQ REMote
right?
What do reckon it could be swez? Do you think that I could have the wrong relay ?THINK
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/23/2007 17:50:12
"Danger.... Will Robinson!!!" Running all 3 amps off the HU REMote + the relay coil will overload the REM chip and render it useless. (Blown power chip for REM)
The pin outs on the relay seem to be correct, as long as it's a 12 volt DC relay, that part is good.
Does the EQ fire up off of Pin 87? If yes, then the amp remotes also need to be connected to pin 87. If not, you make have the "quenching diode" install improperly. This diode is connected between Pin 85 and Pin 86.
When installed properly, the diode passes current in only one direction. If wired correctly, as soon as the HU is turned on, you can feel/hear the relay coil click to the on position. This means the coil is now energized and power will flow from Pin 87.
If the diode is wired in reverse direction, no power to relay solinoid and no power at pin 87 either. A quick test would be to remove one leg of the diode at Pin 85. If Pin 87 now has power, the diode polarity needs to be reversed. Worst case, remove the diode and run w/o it.
Swez
Pin 85 is HU REMote
Pin 86 is GND
Pin 30 is POS
Pin 87 is EQ REMote, and amp remotes
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 22:23:50
Okay, I'll double check everything in the morning.
I didn't check that the EQ was working as I've just got to hook up the speakers, and was only checking that the amps were getting power. If the EQ isn't working, then I'd guess that the GND's on both are incorrect (as they're grounded to the same place).
So right now, I've got the remote connected from the HU to the 1A fuse, into the relay, then from relay to the EQ, daisy chained to the first of the amps, then the second and then the third. Am I right in saying that I might have to connect the amps directly from the 87 pin?
I took a picture of the relay and EQ setup this afternoon, but my phone has been giving me some hassles, so I should be able to get it online at some point tomorrow. I'll take off a side of the diode as you mentioned and hopefully that'll work.
In the below picture (taken when I first started), you can see on the Jensen that it's got three knobs on it. First, is the boost, the second and third are the HPF and LPF settings and go from 0 to 240. What are they exaclty and what should I set them to? I'm guessing that it's the amount of power going to each frequency? Or possibly the amount of signal sent to each pass?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007197.jpg
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/24/2007 01:02:13
If the diode is installed Bass-ack-wards, the EQ will not power up and neither will the amps off pin 87 of the relay.
For your Jensen sub amp, use the LPF filter, set between roughly 80-100 Hz. This allows only bass signals to pass through this amp and into your sub. Since the range is so wide on the dial, you may have to S.W.A.G. it when the tweaking process begins.
S.W.A.G. = Scientific Wild Azz Guess methodology SMILE
Basically, no vocals, no mids here. Only Bass and kick drum and low tone synth are passed to the sub. The rest goes to your mid/high amps and speakers.
I hope it's only the diode is wired wrong. You'll know for sure if the EQ lamps do not come on.
Dave
PS Have a good night as I plan to sleep in late tomorrow. It's been a long day and we have a 4 hour time zone difference. London is "0" GMT right? I am " -4 hours" GMT here. Amazingly, it seems to work out OK regardless.
Keep the faith and be patient Bryan, we'll get ya home in time for Mid-summer at this pace! "zzzzzzzz" good night!
Dreamerrr on 06/24/2007 10:52:26
IT WORKS!!! If you remember, the ebay auction link you posted had two relays? I used the other one which worked, then I attached the spare diode to it in the opposite direction, switched it on, and it works! Haven't had a chance to turn it up, but that'll come tomorrow when I've installed the last speaker cable. Almost there.
Could you give me some guides to the setup of the system, e.g. turn the HU and AMPs up, and then adjust the sound using only the EQ... or something like that?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/24/2007 13:55:24
Yes, I can do tis for you later. This is time consuming and your meter will be most helpful too. (Not so much on full range amps, but sub tweaks for sure.
Some of the tuning is best by voltage meter readings, The full range is best done by ear and trial and error.
We do have methods in outrDIY section as a good guide too:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
If you have questions, just ask...
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/25/2007 13:33:08
Hey Swez,
Nice little artical you've got. So, I've now gone out and bought the voltage meter. I do however feel like an idiot though, as I only know the OHM sign and the diode sign (which I didn't know before starting this project).
So, where should I start? And how does measuring voltage translate into good well balanced sound?
Cheers,
Bryan.
swez on 06/25/2007 14:17:31
The sub amp setup is easy and usually the last itme to tweak. Here, we use the AC voltage side of the meter. (The 3:00 side) More on that later.
As for dialing in your T130's, it's harder to get accurate measurements of AC voltage when crossovers are used. We often get false readings off the meter when reading inductive/capacitive loads. Here, you can do tis pretty well by ear.
1. Start with the front stage amp and speakers and follow the method outline in the link I gave you before. We are looking for clean power to the speakers when the HU is set to "flat tone controls" and 80% HU volume settings.
2. Since the EQ is also part of the audio chain, set the EQ sliders to flat, (No boost/no cut and adjust the Master volume to midpoint of its range and then adjust amp gains for the front speakers to get a clean, strong signal.
3. Once you have the front stage dialed in well, we then move to the rear stage amp and repeat the process. The trick here, is to balance the rear speakers by using the gain settings for that amp. (We don't wnat the rear speakers to overpower the front speakers) Rear speakers often sound louder then front speakers and require less power to balance the F/R stages. Minor tweaks can also be done via the fade feature on the EQ.
4. Finally, we do the sub amp in the same manner. Since the EQ has a Sub control feature, one can control how much or little bass is added by adjusting this dial.
As for your filter settings on all amps, start here:
Front amp HPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
Rear amp HPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
Sub amp LPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
One can adjust the filter settings a tad higher or lower, depending on the cone sizes used in the front or rear. If we hear speaker cone whopping at high SPL and low frequencies, adjust the HPF settings until the problem is corrected.
To set your sub amp properly, do the steps noted above and use the AC voltage side of the meter. (3:00 position of the selector) Shoot for 34.0 volts AC when the sub amp is banging at the highest level SPL you will be using. This allows a few more volts of clean power that will come from the EQ settings later. We measure AC voltage off the amp outputs that feed the sub.
Once you have things set up to your liking, take a measurement of the DC voltage at the battery using the DC volts selector side of the meter. (That's the 9:00 position on your selector dial on this meter) With the engine off and nothing electrical is on, you should expect a 12.0-12.5 volt reading off the battery terminals.
Now, go back to the amps and measure the DC voltage they are getting under the same conditions. (Ground and B+ terminals of each amp) Hopefully, you will see no more than a 0.5 volt drop between amps and the battery. (If amp voltages are much lower, something is not right) We can diagnose that if it shows up.
Now, start the engine and repeat the same steps. This time, the battery will read between 13.5 and 14.4 Volts DC. One should see about the same at each amp power lug. If the number are much lower than this, we may have a problem to look at later.
Finally, on this meter, you will use the lower right corner probe inputs only. Black is ground, the middle Red is Volts and Ohms readings. The top Red probe port is for reading amperage. You will not be using this feature in any of these tests.
Got all that?
Swez
PS It's most helpful to have a 2nd pair of hands to dial in the amp gains while another sits inside the car and listens to the results. In most cases, hand signals from the driver tell the guy dialing in the amps, what to do.
PSS When using EQ features on the HU, EQ or other sound shaping tools like loudness contour, it is best to cut the MIDS a few dB and use minimal boost on lows and highs. At first, it will feel a lot like "Juggling Jello". But with time and a little experimentation, you are gonna love having that EQ/LD at hand.
I've just brought home a Honda Civic. The way the sound has been setup from my knowledge is reasonably atrocious. I have 2 subs, 3 amps, a set of 6x9's and a couple mids in the front door panels. For starters, the mids are run off the head unit, the 6x9's aren't even working, and all I can hear is bass. I was hoping someone on this forum wouldn't mind taking 5 minutes just to help me with the way the setup should be.
Below is a link to a schematic that I quickly drew up from what I can see in the boot, as well as a few pictures of the equipment:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/soundSetup.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007180.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007181.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007183.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007184.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/17052007185.jpg
What I'd really like to know is what I should plug into what, and any words of advice would be great appreciated. GRIN
Thanks,
Bryan
Replies (69)
trunkisloud on 05/17/2007 17:21:16
well i wouldnt match the subs together as im sure others will agree....what model alpine amp is that?? the 6x9s are alpine which is good depending on what kinda shape theyre in....the "unknown" 480watt amp...whats the brand and model number.??....basically this forum works best when you provide brands and model numbers....that way the guys will know exactly how to wire it up to get maximum performance...and the front speakers...be sure to include the info on those....
welcome to the show..
swez on 05/17/2007 17:57:42
Nice diagram artwork... you're hired for the open diagram layout position needed here.
Will need a systematic plan to check all amps and speakers to see what works and what does not. It sound like you have bass now from your Jensen amp and mixed subs. If that works OK, we'll leave this one be for now.
The next step is to test your 6x9 rear speakers to see if they still work. This is often best done with a Digital Multimeter. (Ohms, ACVolts, DC Volts and a few other basic features are adequate) The picture shows no wiring to the speaker. That's one thing to fix as soon as you know the speakers are good.
Then, test the front speakers with the Ohmeter. If you don't get any readings here, these may be blown or disconnected.
That Sony HU, what model # is it? How many RCA output jacks does it have? Are you planning to use that No-Name 480 watt amp?
We'll start with this grouping and work through the process as needed.
Swez
PS Welcome aboard and BTW, did you know that this vehicle has the steering wheel and gages on the wrong side of the car? LOL Where ya from mate?
Dreamerrr on 05/18/2007 05:03:35
Thanks for the good starts guys. I've just arrived at work, so I can't check the finer details, however I can tell you that the 6x9's work, however, I think that there is a faulty connection on the Jensen AMP. From the Jensen, there are a couple wires (are they RCA's?) that connect into the Alpine amp (which is what the 6x9's feed from). The 6x9's worked intermittently when I moved the connection on the Jensen. So, should I take the Jensen off of the sub box, and open it up to see if I can fix the faulty connection? Or is this not advised because of stored power that might shock the hell out of me (a friend of mine said that happened to him once).
The mids in the front door do work, however they push out such a small amount of sound (compared obviously) to the subs in the back. I don't think they're blown, just not getting enough power from the head unit to make good clear sound.
As for the head unit. I'll get the finer details this evening. All I know right now is that its 50wattX4.
Another thing that I noticed, is that when I'm driving on say, the motorway (highway) around 3 or 4 thousand rpm (which should mean the charging system is working fully), the sound almost cuts out for a second every three/four seconds. And if I turn the volume down, it plays without pause. Is this because my car isn't generating enough power?
And Swez, I'm from the land where people drive on the correct side of the road, the people who invented driving... The English. lol. Orginally from Cape Town, South Africa, but now live in London (England).
Oh yeah, if you guys need anything like those diagrams, or possibly something more fancy, let me know and I'll see what I can do. I'll post some of my work that might interest you. Thanks for the help.
-Bryan
swez on 05/18/2007 06:19:03
OK, helpful reply and let's work with what we know so far.
1. Your subs are cutting out: This is often a simple case of re-adjusting the amp gain control. Many amps will shut off and come back on as mentioned, when the gain setting is too sensitive. Just dial back on the amp gain a little until the subs stay on at all levels of listening.
2. The mids in the front door would be much better if amped. This will make a big difference in sound output to the front stage of the car. It's a simple thing to do if the HU has RCA signal output jacks for the front, rear and sub. We can walk you through that process or have it done by a qualified audio tech.
3. The rear speakers look like they are in good condition. Here again, amping them too will help with staging. The general idea is to get your front and rear speakers working together with the subs. We look for a balanced system. The front stage should be dominant. (Strong) The rear speakers should fill in and compliment the front stage speakers. The subs provide low frequency bass to a level that one prefers.
4. It sounds like the RCA signal lines are faulty here. (Alpine/Jensen wires) If you can wiggle the jacks and the rear speakers work, it could be a simple jack failure or loose connections inside the amp. This is common in older amps that have been banged around for a while. In most cases, the jacks are mounted to the main circuit board inside the amp and may have come loose or have poor soldered connections to the board. (Loose tooth wobble) This is easy to repair if one has some basic repair bench skills and the proper tools. (To prevent electrical shock, this is best done when the amp is removed from the vehicle and the power feed and ground cables are removed) Can give more details as requested.
5. This Sony HU says 50 watts x 4 channels. This is a peak power rating. The internal amps are generally rated at about 20-22 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. (Normal full range speaker load rating) This is often adequate power for moderate listening levels when outboard amps are not used or perhaps to feed the rear speakers only. (Rear fill as we call it) For best performance, most aftermarket speakers work/sound much better when they are amped properly. Again, we can walk you through this aspect too.
In a nutshell, it may be wise to examine all the wiring options available from this Sony HU. If it has 2-3 sets of RCA outputs, (Front, Rear and Sub) that would be the best way to go. Knowing the model # of this HU would be a big help. Then we can look up the features, find a copy of the installer/users manuals and work through the steps to maximize your system performance.
Swez
PS London, England you say? Interesting... as we get a lot of readers from all over the world on this site. This site is based in the USA. (Florida, USA) But we have techs and Golds from various states to support our readers.
We have one guy based in India and a good number of folks from Canada as well. This site attracts folks from the UK, Mexico, Austrailia, Asia, South America, the Caribbian Islands and even Japan. That's quiet a mix huh? The interesting part, we all speak a common language... music and car audio-speak. How cool is that?
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 05/18/2007 10:03:59
Wow, that was a very informative post, and the pictures were great. Ok, I looked at the pics, and here are the problems that I see.
First off, the 6x9 you have pictured has no wires going to it at all. I am not sure if you disconnected them, but that would be a first check problem for me.
Mosfet Amplifier Amp480 has no speaker wires coming out of it, and I am not sure if it has any RCA inputs going into it. It seems like an illusion, but it seems there is nothing there.
A lot of wires are crossing here, and quality of said wire is leaving a lot to be desired here. I honestly wouldnt doubt ig the RCA's that I did see werent slplit ofen and crossing somwehere. If they were, there would be a possibility that a split that happened in the wire wouldn't be disturbed until a nice loud bass vibration might cause them to touch.
Is there any signal noise/ engine whing occuring at all? I looks like that may occur with all the wires that are crossing.
Good to be back to our mixed squad of audiophiles. We also come from many age groups as well. One giant online multinational team dedicated to making the world sound better...........
Dreamerrr on 05/18/2007 10:21:39
Well, the idea is to do this all myself in order to learn how car sound works and the best way to set it up. I'll be taking more pictures as I continue to set everything up properly.
Yes the 6x9's don't have wires connected right now, but thats because I disconnected them to take the picture. I have the feeling you're right about the Mosfet AMP being a lame duck/limp noodle, but I'll get some more details shots of it over the week-end. I'll also be taking apart the Jensen to fix the connection problem.
Yes, there is engine noise sometimes. I'm guess that when the wiring got mixed around in the boot/trunk they crossed causing the engine noise.
What I think the best idea is, is to rip out all of the existing wiring, then replace it with the correct length of quality wiring.
I think the thing that I understand the least is how the power is actually used. I read an informative post, saying that wattage does translate to how much power is actually being used in the system. So what is the difference between watts, ohms etc,.?
Okay, so my plan for this week-end, will be to disconnect everything, (after taking alot of pictures), fix the Jensen, and from there we can start putting the system back together. I'd also like to test the Mosfet to see if it's actually working. Is it a good idea to connect it up to the 6x9's for the test?
And what is the deal with the remote wire? I noticed it sits inbetween the power cables? Is it similar to a grounding wire?
jamesp on 05/18/2007 10:40:15
Dreamerrr, here is a link to a wonderful tutorial that contains all the answers to your questions. Just click on the subject of interest on the menu column on the right side of the page and, Voila’ dig in.
This site can always be accessed from the "links" section on the left up top on this page. Choose "General Car Audio Help" then from the page that opens choose"Basic Car Audio Electronics" It is all there.
http://www.bcae1.com/
trunkisloud on 05/18/2007 18:03:40
haha i love it when they call it a boot....
swez on 05/18/2007 19:07:36
BCAE1 is a great wealth of knowledge site. I see 2 links you may benefit from reading a few times as you go along the re-wiring and troubleshooting process. Here's a few good ones to study:
http://www.bcae1.com/installationprimer.htm
http://www.bcae1.com/audiots.htm
Don't be surprised if some of this is a bit over your head at first. We can help clarify questions as they come up. Enjoy the weekend reading as you dive in.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/20/2007 14:09:31
Thanks chaps. So here is the latest update on what I've been up to. Below are several pictures I took while taking everything apart. I believe that the two unknown wires are actually from the door mids which has since been connected straight to the head unit.
I also found 2 sets of RCA's coming out of the head unit, one which leads to the AMPS, and the other that runs to the CD changer. Do you need any other info about the Head Unit?
I had a little time to test the purple Mosfet AMP. It worked! However, when I switched the option of Sub-Woofer on, it stopped working. I also found one of the fuses blown (there are 2). So, if one of the fuses is blown and the AMP still plays, what isn't working because of the blown fuse? And what amp/ohm/watt fuse should I be using? One of the fuses is a 10, and the other, which is now blown is a 7.5.
Also in one of the photos you can see where I opened the Jensen AMP, and found the problem which was causing the 6x9's to cut out.
Here are the pictures, including a picture of the less than wonderful wiring, which I'm really tempted to throw away and replace:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007189.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007197.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007199.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007201.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007202.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007203.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007211.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007212.jpg
So, now, I'm looking for the best way to connect the system back together in the way that is going to get me the most accurate, clear and strong sound. My un-educated guess would be, the Jensen to the 2 Subs, the Mosfet to the 6x9's and the Alpine to the front door speakers, with new, correct size wiring. Should I find out anymore particular information on any of the system's parts?
Cheers
Bryan
swez on 05/20/2007 17:18:56
The Alpine T130 is the best amp of the bunch in terms of quality and reliability. It's rated at 50 x 2 Wrms @ 4 ohms, 65 Wrms @ 2 ohms/ch. This amp would be a good MATCH for your rear speakers.
What speakers are used in the front stage? Knowing what you have there, will help us figure out the best amp choice there.
I think I would set the Purple Toy amp aside for now. If both channels are not working, this amp is pretty useless. More often then not, when an amp fuse blows, there's something wrong inside the amp. (Repairs may not be worth it as this amp is very low power and of questionable quality) The low fuse values indicate a very low grade power amp.
The pictures of your Jensen amp guts suggest one pair of RCA jacks have been damaged. If I were to guess, these are probably preouts that feed your Alpine. If faulty here, the Alpine amp may drop out on you when driving on bumpy roads. This wiring method is often called "Daisy Chain" connections. It works best, (As is) for the rear channel speakers and a sub out. If each amp used has its own dedicated RCA lines off the HU, even better.
That Sony HU you mentioned, what is the model # of that HU? If it only has 1 pair of RCA signal lines to feed outboard amps, we may need to reconfigure things for better control of all amped channels used. Based on your model # and other details we can learn about this HU, have a few ideas on what to try on the rewiring plan.
Do you have some spare pocket change to upgrade an amp or 2 and perhaps some solid front stage speakers and such? Knowing your fiscal limits will help us determine the best ways to get the most from what you have now and may need later.
Finally, that Jensen amp... what are the fuse values in this amp? (25 x 2) I looked it up in an archives and it seems to be a decent amp for sub use. The power output here is a modest 300 - 350 Wrms @ 4 ohms when bridged MONO. That's pretty good for a decent 4 ohm sub. (Dual 10's or one 12")
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-EvHWBDGDTRN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=100&tab=detailed_info&i=110XA2250#Tab (Amp details)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/110/110XA2250.PDF (Amp manual)
Swez
PS This original install is a real mess at the moment. It is difficult to tell what goes where. (Wire wise) But the work you have figured out so far is moving in the right direction.
Don't be shocked if you end up starting from scratch. Yes, it's a longer road, but when it's all said and done, you'll know exactly what you have, where things are connected and a very clean install. That yields a solid understanding of how the work was done and why. You up for that one mate?
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 06:30:45
Hells yeah! I'm really looking forward to getting everything up to a decent spec. I'll check the HU model number tonight. It should be on the outside of the case right?
I should be able to afford an AMP upgrade at some point, I'd like to try to make do with what I have as much as possible, but upgrade the wiring so that all the possible bottle necks of the system are free. Then when I finally have some cash to upgrade the system, I don't have to think about the poor wiring hindering the system, so I can just plug in whatever I've bought with minimal worry. I'm not sure that I'm looking at it in the correct way, but I'd like to get the basics nicely setup first. Then worry about the strength of the system. Is this the correct way to go about it?
I'll be having a look on ebay for maybe a good wiring kit, and one or two other small upgrades. Would it be worth my while looking at a cross-over control unit? (I've been reading those websites above).
I'll let you know the details about the HeadUnit and the front door mid's details when I get home tonight. Also, on one of the websites above, it mentions that the correct way to get a good ground, is to attach the wire to some point on the base of the car (as mine has been done), however on the rear of one of the AMPs, it states that the ground should not be connected to the frame/chasis? So which is correct?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 08:29:54
The way I see things now, you will need 5-6 amp channels to do this well.
2 channels for the front speakers (6.5" rounds are factory size)
2 channels for the rear speakers (6x9" ovals here)
1-2 channels for the subs
From what I see in your gear so far, the Jensen and Alpine amps are usable. The "Purple Toy" amp seems to be the snag as it is very low power and one channel is not working. (Is that correct?)
That Jensen amp can be used for full range front speakers or your subs. The Alpine amp is good for your rear speakers.
Depending on the HU features available/lacking here, it might be best to add a Line Driver/EQ or Line Driver/Crossover network and 1 more amp. This additional amp can either be a Class D MONO amp for your subs or a 2 channel amp to power your front speakers. The choice depends on the sub(s) used and the power handling of the front speakers used.
Yes, the HU model number is usually noted on the face plate.
Note: Sony is one difficult brand to research. Their web info on car audio products is very limited and lame at that. (Especially older models) However, if I can find the specs/features on your HU model #, we should be able to pull things together with time. Do you have the install and user manuals for this HU?
There are several ways to obtain very good integration with even the most basic of HU designs. Some options are easy and cheap. Others are more complex and more expensive. The good news is, if the HU is in good working order, we can figure out a way to get the most from it.
As for a wiring kit, until we get a handle on the amps used, it's difficult to judge what you will need for power wire gage and a Distribution Block. The Alpine and Jensen amps need #8 gage wires each for power. Depending on the 3rd amp used, another #8 or even a #4 gage wire may be needed. Rather than shooting from the hip on wiring kits now, I suggest we concentrate on the hardware component side of this install for now. Then we can figure out the wiring kit needs.
Tell me about the subs you have now.
1. What are the RMS power ratings of each sub you have now?
2. What is the ohmic value of each sub?
3. Are these 10's [254mm] or 12" [305mm] subs? (I cannot tell from the pictures)
There are many more details to cover as we go through this process. Take your time and plan each step well now, then buy smartly as needed. This will give you the best results for your time, efforts and monies spent.
Quote: "Also, on one of the websites above, it mentions that the correct way to get a good ground, is to attach the wire to some point on the base of the car (as mine has been done), however on the rear of one of the AMPs, it states that the ground should not be connected to the frame/chasis? So which is correct?"
Hummm, which amp mentions this grounding method is incorrect? It is standard practice to ground an amplifier to the floor pan, chassis or frame. It is best to ground all amps to the same location and to bare metal with a bolt/nut or stud connection. A 10mm diameter bolt/stud should suffice. The trick is to keep all ground wires as short as possible. (Under 1 meter length per ground wire)
Say more as you can on the HU model # and subs you have now OK?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 09:03:15
Great! I'll have all the info this evening... I can't believe I haven't done this sooner. At some point this week, I'll start trawling ebay for the Line Driver/Crossover network.
For some reason, the wiring to the mids were disconnected from the purple rubbish amp. From what I heard, it plays both channels, but you're right about it being under powered. So, it looks like I'm going to replace the purple amp, for something to power the front mids, and I'll keep the Jensen on the Subs, although, I think that they're going to be under powered by the single amp. They're 12' subs. But I'll check on the RMS and ohmic values of each of them. Eventually, I'd like to sell both of them to get two of the same.
Thanks Swez.
- Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 09:18:21
As for your subs, if you plan to trade/trash or sell them later, consider a single 12" sub for your Jensen amp. Here, an SVC, 4 ohm sub is one option. The other option is a decent 2+2 DVC sub. At 300 watts RMS, there are many good 12's out there that will do the job very well in about 1.0 ft^3 sealed box or smaller. ( A tad larger if you want a ported box)
JBL, Infinity, Kenwood, Polk and Alpine all make good SQL subs to match this Jensen amp.
Consider these as you look around:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=113XW12DVC&g=520
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=1081250W
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWS1223
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWR1222
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xW4xv6JxPWN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=107DB124
Happy hunting,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/21/2007 15:53:33
Okay... So, heres what I have:
Head Unit - SONY, 50Wx4, MDX-C6500R
Specs: http://www.ewtoo.org/~matt/minidisc/spec-6500.htm
Front door Mids - Phoenix 4 ohm Octane R speakers:
• 5.25 inch (130mm) Coaxial
• Frequency response: 90Hz-20kHz
• Sensitivity: 89dB (1W/1M)
• 50/100W (RMS/PEAK)
The Subs - (heres where it gets tricky...):
Picard Pro-plus 12inch of which has absolutely no markings on the rear of the sub. The only writing on it, is on the front which says "Picard Pro-Plus". I did a search and only picked up this forum log - http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/archive/index.php/t-170925.html
Alpine Type E 12 inch - has markings on the rear that say 4 ohms and a serial number - SWE-1241. According to a review site is: 12" 4-ohm Component Subwoofer Kevlar reinforced pulp cone, rubber surround, 50-200W RMS total power range, 26-1,000 Hz frequency response.
Below are some photos of the (what I think) is poor quality of wiring inside the sub-box, some pictures of the speakers and a few of the Picard Sub:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007216.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007218.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007219.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007220.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007221.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/21052007222.jpg
I think that covers most of everything. As I said, I couldn't find anymore information on the Picard Sub. I'm not sure if you guys are more familiar with them?
One thing I'd like to know, is that from the rear of the CD Changer, there are three wires the two RCA cables, and a black wire which seems to find its way into the rear of the head unit. Does this mean that the CD changer takes is power from the head unit? Also, the specs on my head unit say that it has 2 pre-amp outlets. I'm guessing this is where the two RCA's plug into. However, if they are outputs, then why does the CD changer's RCA plug into them? I didn't follow the wires all the way under the dash board, but the wires and the connectors looked the same.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/21/2007 18:11:57
Call it luck... but I did find a copy of the manual for this HU model on the Internet. Here's the general link and all you need do is hit the "Next" link on top of the page to change pages. I suggest you print this out for future references. Thank you Simon Gardner:
http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdxc6500r_manual/
Page 27 on this manual notes this HU has 2 pairs of RCA outputs. (Front & Rear, but no Sub channel) We can still work with this as is and you can even shut off the internal amps to conserve power and improve performance of this HU.
As for additional features to consider, if you'd like a dash mounted
EQ/Line Driver and 3 sets of preamp outs, (F,R & Sub) there are a good number of products to choose from. It just depends on your listening preferences, budget and what is available in your area. More on that later if you wish.
Front speakers are modest and a 2nd matching Alpine T-130 would be a very good option for the front door speakers mentioned. That would be the cheapest way to go and still have good stereo imaging and fade control. Look around and see what you can find.
As for the bass engine, it looks like you can use either sub or both with decent results. It seems the Picard sub can handle more power, (~300 Wrms) and if only using one sub, that would be a good choice when bridging your Jensen amp to MONO mode. I would recommend a sealed enclosure for this Picard sub. 1.12 Pro Plus, 4 ohms, SVC.
Looks like a very cheap full range wedge enclosure here. From best I can see, you have 2 speaker wire jacks in this box, a pair of cheap horms and probably some cheap capacitor type filters on the horns. If you would, consider getting a better sub enclosure that fits your Picard sub only. A sealed sub enclosure would be best as we really don't know enough about the sub specs to do ported. I would say a 0.85 - 1.25 ft^3 sealed box range would be good for this Picard sub. That box is poorly made and not much better than fire wood.
Finally, those front door Octane R5.0 speakers... did they come with remote tweeters and matching crossovers? (Hope so)
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Phoenix-Gold-Octane-R5-0-5-1-4-Component-Speakers_W0QQitemZ180109358844QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Cheers mate! You do have your work cut out here friend. This is a major do-over. But the end results should be much better than before.
Swez
PS I have to take off for now and will get back to you later on the CD changer part of your question then.
Dreamerrr on 05/22/2007 07:50:38
Great! I've found another Alpine T-130 on ebay which is ending this evening, so I should have the power for the front mids and rear 6x9's. Now, I've just got to sort out the sub box.
In England we've got a place called Halfords who do sound boxes etc,. I'll head around to them on the week-end.
So now, I've got 2 choices:
1. Buy a single sub box for the Picard sub
2. Buy a more powerful replacement AMP for both of the subs
3. Buy another AMP in addition to the Jensen for the second sub
Is that about correct? I mean, the single Jensen isn't powerful enough to cope with both subs properly. So, will the system produce better sound with the one properly powered sub, than the Jensen powering both?
Now, I'm not looking for the loudest system, but I'd really like to focus more so on quality. So, I'm guessing that going for the single Sub, powered by the Jensen, the mids and 6x9's power by their own Alpine T130 should give me a good quality system right?
Now, with regards to your comment about the remote tweakers, I don't have them. But if I did get some, a) where would I put them (I really hate the idea of sticking them onto the dashboard), b) what would I power them with? Do they need to be powered by an AMP?
I don't think that I'm going to go down the route of having a dash mounted EQ/Line Driver, as I'm looking to build a system that will play good all-round sound well, and not just loud bass, etc,. (I'm also not THAT fussy about the small changes between music that would require a Line Driver). So I think that what I need is the correct way to split the signals to the 3 amps without losing any power in that signal. I could use Y connectors, but wouldn't this reduce that signal? Would it be better to daisy chain the RCA's from the head unit, first into the Jensen, then into the 1st and then the 2nd T130?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/22/2007 09:27:31
That's great that you found another Alpine T-130 amp for the Front speakers. I would suggest adding tweeters with good passive crossover for your tweeters. Most can be purchased as separates and not very expensive. (30-50 Watts RMS power handling is good) The trick is mounting them in a location that gives you very good stereo imaging in the front stage. This would add a nice presents to your front speakers when amped. They can often be flush mounted or surface mounted, depending on the kit used. In many cases, it is good to mount in the door panels, a few inches for your Octane Mids. They will have a passive crossover to block lows and can be powered off the HU front channel amps or connected to the Octane mids. A picture of your door panels may be very helpful in placement. These are often very small speakers and easily mounted in or on the doors panels as desired.
As for your bass engine, that Jensen amp is adequate for some good bump off a single 12" sub, sealed or ported box. In this case, you'll have stronger, clean bass from this system than you had before with your dual 12's. Right now, each sub is only getting about 75-100 watts RMS per sub. Giving that Picard sub a solid 300 - 350 Watts RMS in a sealed box should sound much better than what you have now. Worth the effort here Bryan.
I suggested the Line Driver/EQ to give you more control over each part of the system from the driver's seat. The type I have used a few times now with very good results, is the Audiobahn AEQ6 or Q7. Clarion and a few others also make them as well.
The advantage here, you can control overall system volume at your fingers and also boost or cut sub volume as needed. It only requires 1 pair of RCA line from the HU and splits the signal into 3 pairs of RCA's.
(Front, Rear & Sub + a Master volume. It has a line driver to insure all amps get adequate audio signal power to each amp.
This unit also has several dials for EQ so one can cut/boost Bass, Mids and Highs as needed. It's very compact too. (1/2 Din in size) Think it over as this HU does not have many features that can tailor your sound as well as this little device can. It also has an AUX input source for I-Pods, MP3 players or even DVD audio. They were selling off e-bay for about $60.00 (USD) Have a look:
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/process.html
Yes, you can also run dual RCA lined to the amps as noted. One pair to the front channel amp, T-130. The rear RCA's can be split with "Y" cables to feed your rear channel T-130 and the Jensen amp too. It will work OK this way, but you won't have as much stage contol as when using the EQ/LD mentioned above.
If you just want to use "Y" splitters, do this back at the amps. You have more room to work there and easy to hide the wiring later. Just a short pair of RCA patch cables are needed in this case.
Got all that?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 07:46:28
Damn, thats a fair amount of information!
So, it looks like you've twisted my arm Swez. I'm going to start looking for a Audiobahn Line Driver. I found one in the states, but the bastards won't send overseas. I don't understand how, if you're going to be posting the item anyway, why can't I just pay the difference and they put an extra few stamps on the box?!
I do have a quick question. We've been talking about how the Picard takes around 300 - 350 watts RMS. But is that at 2 ohms of 4 ohms? Can you set an amp between 2 and 4 ohms? When looking at stats on amps, they always state e.g. 50watts at 4 ohms, and 120watts at 2 ohms.
You also mentioned that my sub box was the equivalent of fire wood, so what constitutes a well made sub box? Even in South Africa was had sub boxes made with chip board. Also, if I get a single sub box, where would you suggest mounting the 3 amps? I was thinking about turning the old sub box into a sort of mounting board.
Having looked on ebay for the Audiobahn Line Driver, and only finding one in the states, do you have some other decent options I can look for?
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 07:54:02
Something like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-CLARION-EQS-746-7-BAND-EQUALIZERS-7-EQ-EQS746_W0QQitemZ170114474675QQihZ007QQcategoryZ79841QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
swez on 05/24/2007 11:46:35
Yes, that Clarion has the same general features and a very good price as well. Good find!
I don't know a lot about your Picard sub other than what we have researched and passed back and forth already. From the picture I saw in one of your earlier posts, it's likely to be a 4 ohm sub. I saw only one set of speaker coil terminals on it, and most Singe Voice Coils, (SVC's) are 4 ohms. You can easily confirm that with an ohmeter. If you see an ohmic reading of say 3.4 - 3.6 ohms with your meter, it's a 4 ohm sub.
As for box materials to use, we prefer Medium Density Fiberboard. (3/4" MDF is plenty good for thickness here) It's easy to cut, moderate cost per sheet and very easy to tool as needed. Normal Partical Board can be used, but it has some deterimental properties too.
As for mounting your amps, there are many ways to do this. The best way is to use a flat piece of MDF board. Map out where you'd like to mount it and then figure out how to arrange the amps for best wiring of all amps. (Power, grounds, RCA's, Remotes and probably a good Power Distribution Block too)
The D-block makes things very clean and simple to connect multiple amps to one location. In your case, a D-block with 1/0 or 2x4 gage inputs are good and 3-4 x #8 outputs. If you are not familiar with D-blocks, have a look here:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-lCXuDqYawU5/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=715&I=211DBX3448&search=Power+Distribution+Blocks (General details)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/211/211DBX3448.PDF (Manual)
There is more to get you home, but not wanting to get the cart before the horse here.
Swez
PS Are you familiar with relay controlled devices? It looks like you'll need one for 3 Amp REMotes and the EQ/LD part of the circuit too. These are not expensive, but will add a bit more effort to your install as you progress. We can walk you through it. No need to fret... you're OK here and we'll see ya through.
PSS Do you use PayPal? I ask as we, (CK) are in need of some operating funds soon. If yes, this is easy to donate to CK needs as you feel appropriate. No, we don't ask an arm, leg or 1st born child... but a few Euro's/English pounds are very appropriate for this level of support. What say you?
Dreamerrr on 05/24/2007 14:46:47
Okay, I'm thinking of just buying the material and making the box myself. It shouldn't be the hardest thing in the world. Seeing as though I missed the boat on the T130 on ebay, I've found a second amp, something quite similar for a good price to power the front octane's with tweeters. Or I could use the T130 I have now, to power those and use this amp to power the 6x9's. Here are the details, let me know what you think:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270120526742&rd=1&rd=1
Specifications
RMS Power (at 14.4V,20Hz-20kHz)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 40W x 2 (0.08% THD)
Per channel into 2 ohms- 60W x 2 (0.3% THD)
Bridged 4 ohms- 120W x 1 (0.3% THD)
10% THD Power (at 14.4V)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 60W x 2 (1kHz)
MAX Power (at 14.4V,EIAJ)
Per channel into 4 ohms- 90W x 2
Bridged 4 ohms- 240W x 1
I'm guessing that should be enough to run either decently.
I've also found this power distribution block (should I be using fused or non-fused?):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Power-Ground-Distribution-Block-2x4-AWG-4x8-AWG-Out_W0QQitemZ250077602401QQihZ015QQcategoryZ14932QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
or something heavier:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDIOPIPE-AGU-POWER-DISTRIBUTION-BLOCK-PDC1414_W0QQitemZ270121363205QQihZ017QQcategoryZ50550QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem
I'm not familiar with relay controlled devices, but I did wonder if we were going to end up daisy chaining the remote wires. Do you have any in particular you could point me to?
And yeah, I am going to donate to the site. The information I've receieved so far, is far more than I would have by just speaking to a local tech, and its also quality advise. The guys around here, would take my car, re-connect everything as it was, and hand it back to me saying something like, if I want better sound, they're going to have to re-do the whole system. Should hopefully be able to donate at the end of next week or the week after.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/24/2007 16:55:10
This Alpine (Flex 2) would be best used to power your rear speakers if you get it. Use the stronger amp, (T-130) for your front Octane speakers. This is a new e-bayer that is selling and his approval rating is a very low 80% positive feedback. Check out the negative comment listed on his account and consider that before you buy.
The Voodoo D-block is fine if all your amps have fuses in them already. Fused D-blocks are nice when using amps that don't have their own fuses.
With 3 amps and perhaps that Clarion EQ/LD, that's 4 devices in all that need REMote turn on leads. Most HU's will support 2 devices and be OK. Here, a relay is almost a must. Here's a good primer on how relays are used: (Use the single pole, single throw version)
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
These are very low cost devices and easy to get the Bosch automotive relay, (Or OEM equivilent) at any good auto parts stores in the USA. ($3.00)
Study the diagram well as you will be working with a few extra wires here. The output side of the relay can supply up to 30 amperes of current to drive all REMote turn on circuits. However, for the items noted, the main power feed line will only need about 3-5 amperes of current. (Yes, you can daisy-chain all amps off the relay as mentioned)
Use an inline fuse as noted, between the HU REMote wire and the relay. The "quenching diode" is a very good idea to protect your HU REMote circuit when the relay is shut off by the HU. If you don't use that diode, the system will still work, but the diode will protect your HU circuit from the reverse inductive voltage spike very well.
Again, read this one over carefully until you have a clear picture in your mind how to use one. It can be in the dash, wired back where the amps live or any point it between.
Cheers,
Swez
PS Am glad you feel comfortable with our little site. We are very newbie friendly, rated PG for a good reason and operate off of donations and limited advertising. When one donates, they get a gold star noting they are a site contributor. How cool is that? CLAP
Dreamerrr on 05/25/2007 06:13:18
So on your advise about the e-bay seller's feed back, I didn't get the amp. I do know of a second T130 that is going up on ebay in the next few days which I'll keep my eyes on.
I'm pretty confortable with the relay idea. I looked through the link you posted, and understand why it's nessesary. Now I guess the idea is to get all the smaller parts together while I look for the bigger parts ie, the EQ/LD, amp and sub box.
Just thinking of the smaller things, please correct me if I'm wrong, but heres what I'm going to be looking to buy:
VooDoo D-Block (non fused)
relay - single pole, single throw version
quenching diode
inline fuse for the relay wire (did you mean the quenching diode is the fuse?)
various crimps, clips and rings for wiring later on. (What size should I get for the power, remote, and speaker wires?)
I'll hopfully be able to get all of those on Sunday.
Cheers,
Bryan
PS I haven't received a gold star since school ;)
swez on 05/25/2007 08:58:16
It may be good that you passed on that Alpine Flex 2 for now. When we see low feedback numbers, (Well below 97%) it's either a new e-bayer who has to learn the biz or a bad apple.
Right now, you can gather up your basic parts and begin the "pre-wire phase". Once that is done, everything you buy later will drop right in. This stuff adds up fast. Some install kits come with most items and are usually lower in cost that buying separates.
Here's the basic parts list you'll be gathering: (the basics)
1. Main Power Cable: #4 gage line from BAT to D-block (A length that will reach from the engine compartment to your amp location plus a few extra feet to hide it. [4-5 meters long should do it] A terminal ring on the battery post connection is recommended. (#4 gage ring)
2. Main power inline fuse and holder: (For this install, I'd suggest an 80 - 100 amp ANL type fuse, close to the battery... 0.5 meters or closer) Like these: [you may already have one in the original install kit)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STIGANL80PT
http://www.cardomain.com/item/LITLSFHANL2
3. Voodoo D-block as noted
4. #16 gage "speaker wire": (About 5 meters should do it, from amp in rear to HU harness for front speakers and some left over for rear speakers too)
5. #12 gage speaker wire from sub amp to sub (1 meter should do it)
6. #8 gage power line: (Enough to reach each amp off the D-block)
7. #8 gage grounding line: (About 3 meters is all you should need) Each amp will have its own ground wire. It is best to find a location for the grounding point that keeps each wire under 1 meter or less.
8. 3 x #8 gage ring terminals for your grounds
9. Bosch relay: 12 volt type, SPST (Some come with a "quenching diode installed, otherwise, you'll need to put one in manually)
10. Inline fuse holders:
a. One for the HU REMote to relay: 1.0 A's
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=070-609
b. A larger current version for the main power line on relay: 10 - 15 A's is adequate here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=070-675
11. REMote feeder line: #16 gage stranded wire is fine. You can buy it in bulk, (Blue or Purple) and just cut to lengths and use butt or barrel connectors as needed. (Off the HU to relay and relay to amp area)You can now daisy chain each amp as needed.
How are you set for RCA cables now? Use what you have and I can suggest other add on as needed. If you are handy with a soldering pencil, you can just buy bulk coaxial wire and solder type RCA males and make your own to custom lengths. (I often use #16/18 gage coaxial wire for these. See this link for details:
http://www.bcae1.com/rcacable.htm
OK, this is a good start. Check what you already have on hand from the previous install. If parts are in good shape, use them over again and save some time and money.
Comments?
Dave
PS OK, the Gold Star may seem a bit cheezy, but the idea is pretty simple... we recognise our contributors for their support. It may take a few days to have your name listed and the Gold star is posted to your name, but it will ID you as a site contributor.
PSS The guys with Gold Medallions are the Go-Too guys for quality information and feedback. Yes, we have a few non-Golds that are well qualified to give excellent advice too. They just have not been around long enough to merit the Gold Medallion is all.
Dreamerrr on 05/27/2007 17:27:45
Okay, so after fumbing around a major car store in my area, all I managed to come up with was 5 meters of #16 gauge speaker wire, some speaker connectors, and some measurements of a 12" sub box they have there.
I asked about the bosch relay, and they said that they didn't have any. I asked about inline fuses, and they have, but I wasn't sure which ampage to get. I found from 5 amps to 30 amps. You said for the remote, I should get 1.0A's, did you mean a 1 amp inline fuse? I do already have an inline fuse on the main power wire from the battery (about 30 cm from it). They also didn't have any 4# gauge power wire.
They had a D-block, but didn't have the correct input points.
As I mentioned above, I found a sub box, took some measurements, but can't remember the formula from school to work out something's volume that has a wedge on it. I don't suppose you can remember swez?
The measurements are:
Width = 17.5 inches
Heigh = 14.5 inches
Base Depth = 12.5 inches
Top Depth = 8.74 inches
The sub box looks well made, and also comes with a well made price tag to match, but it would be a qulity addition to the system.
I also have a fair amount of the wire I need for the remote wires and power wires left from the last install.
I do have a question about the relay. I found the following on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OEM-SPDT-Relay-Socket-12V-DC-30-40-AMP-Bosch-Style_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33724QQihZ010QQitemZ200113161811QQrdZ1
Now, it comes with a fair few wires (4), however, if this is for the relay, then what do we end up connecting to what? And what ampage relay am I looking for?
I'll be looking at ordering the Clarion EQ this week, as well as hopfully getting the amp that I need. Then hopfully we can start putting things together. What is used to power the Clarion EQ?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 05/27/2007 19:42:52
Quote: "I asked about the bosch relay, and they said that they didn't have any. I asked about inline fuses, and they have, but I wasn't sure which ampage to get. I found from 5 amps to 30 amps. You said for the remote, I should get 1.0A's, did you mean a 1 amp inline fuse? I do already have an inline fuse on the main power wire from the battery (about 30 cm from it). They also didn't have any 4# gauge power wire.
Reply:
1. That Bosch relay shown in your link is the correct one. It's a bit over-kill on the amperage rating, but yes, it will work just fine. These are easlily found at a good autoparts store for cheap. (~$3.00 USD)
2. Need a 1 amp fuse and holder between the HU REMote line and your relay solinoid connection. This protects the HU REMote circuit from excess current that would normally blow the chip.
3. On the Constant Battery feed line to the relay, a simple 10-20 amp fuse is plenty.
4. Your main power line for the amps to battery should be minimally a #4 gage line. A #2 line would be better if you can find some. If the D-block has dual #4 input line ports, can still use #2 wire here, but have to strip back the insulation enough to tease out enough stranded wires to fill each #4 port and seal off exposed wire.
Quote: "As I mentioned above, I found a sub box, took some measurements, but can't remember the formula from school to work out something's volume that has a wedge on it. I don't suppose you can remember swez?
Reply: Need to know the board thickness used to get the proper internal volume. I'll give you 5/8" and 3/4" board calcs.
5/8" thickness: 1.1 ft^3 is internal of this box
3/4" thickness: 1.03 ft^3
If you want to use this auto calc, I find it very reliable. This page gives details and plug in your numbers for sealed, ported, rectangles, full wedge, modified wedge and round enclosures. A Port calculator is also available:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#wed
Quote: "Now, it comes with a fair few wires (4), however, if this is for the relay, then what do we end up connecting to what? And what ampage relay am I looking for?
Reply: That relay you showed from E-bay is good. It even has the pigtail wire and harness attachment to make things easier. This one is rated 30-40 amperes. You won't need that much power, but it will work out fine.
As for wiring the relay, remember the link I gave a few threads up. That is your guide. See the section marked out as the Bosch Relay in the middle of this link:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
Pin 86 is connected to HU Remote line (1 amp fuse here)
Pin 30 connects to +12 volt battery (10 amp fuse is good here and you can use the D-block for a Constant +12 volt source too)
Pin 85 is to ground
Pin 87 feeds your amp REMote turn on lugs and can be daisy chained
Pin 87a is not used
Quote: " What is used to power the Clarion EQ?"
Reply: This has 3 power wires.
A. Constant +12 volt
B. Ground
C. REMote turn on lead
The RCA outputs are pretty straight up too.
1. One pair of RCA inputs from your HU front channel RCA's
2. One pair RCA's to front channel amp
3. One pair RCA's to rear channel amp
4. One pair RCA's to sub amp
As for spare wiring on hand, use what you have as needed. If you have a long length of #8 gage line, this can be cut to fit from your D-block outputs to each amp inputs. (3-4 feet per amp should do it)
Each amp also needs a #8 gage grounding wire. All amps should be gronded to the same location and keep the lines as short as is practical. (2-3 feet is plenty)
The Remote line can be #18 gage wire or larger if that's all you have. If you wire the relay near the amps, less wire is needed. The longest wire will be the REMote output line from the HU to the relay.
Whew... this is another long posting Mang... you ask a lot of questions. (But they are all good ones too) It's all good and the results will be well worth it.
Keep it coming... Cheers to my new buddy in London, England
Dave
Dreamerrr on 05/29/2007 04:56:14
Hi Dave,
I've got a few questions for you. But right now, I'm just going to stick with the one that I need to get the correct cables. What is the diameter of a 4 gauge wire? If 16 gauge is 1.5mm, does that mean that the 4 gauge is 6mm? I just have to check if I've got the correct gauge running from the battery right now (from the previous install).
Also, if i'm getting a D-Block with 2 x 4 gauge inputs, does that mean I have to have 2 4 gauge power wires running off the battery or do I split them at the D-Block?
Also, in your experience, what length cable would reach from the HU to the boot (trunk)?
Cheers,
Bryan
jamesp on 05/29/2007 08:03:05
Dreamerrr, here is a link showing metric and other conversions from AWG (American Wire Guage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Table_of_AWGs_and_approximate_corresponding_sizes
swez on 05/29/2007 10:50:30
#4 gage is 0.2043 inches or 5.189mm in diameter. With the insulation jacket, it will be a little larger when using calipers to measure the wire.
Use the chart noted by JamesP and you'll see all the common gage numbers, resistance per foot and such. (Thanks Jimmy... good call)
That double 4 D-block may come in handy if you upgrade to larger amps in the future. Then you can run dual #4 wires and that equals a #2 gage line in current carry ability and very low resistance per foot. Right now, only one #4 line is needed for this present rig.
Length of wire varies a lot depending on how one routes the wire. In most cases, knowing the length of your vehicle and adding about 6-8 feet more, you should have enough. In your case ~20 feet or 6 meters should be sufficient.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 05/29/2007 11:26:15
Thanks James. Wikipedia is an amazing site. I should have looked there first.
Dave, is this the correct relay I should get?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-DC-SPST-10A-RELAY-LOW-PROFILE-PCB-MOUNTING-TYPE_W0QQitemZ170115267832QQihZ007QQcategoryZ42899QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Looks like I've found the correct diode to connect from a place called Maplin. I've also bought the Clarion and am awaiting delivery, as well as the 1A inline fuse for the remote wire (from Maplin). So everything is starting to build up. I'll get that sub box I mentioned this week-end, then all we'll be waiting for is the extra amp.
Does the Clarion EQ come with something so that you can mount them in the dashboard? I've got a free space near the gear lever (uh, stick shift as I believe you guys call it) which I thought would be a better location than under the driver's seat.
Cheers,
B
swez on 05/29/2007 12:02:00
That relay will not work for your install. It is designed for mounting to PC boards and you'd have a very difficult time soldering wires to this one. DO NOT BUY THIS ONE.
This is the style of relay you need:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Marine-engine-power-trim-relays-Bosch-12V-relays-boat_W0QQitemZ180123553095QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15263QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
As for mounting this EQ, not sure what comes in the package for mounting hardware. If you have a dash opening or console pocket at the gear shift/gear lever, that would be a good spot if it fits. This unit is small and light weight. You can even use dual sided stick tape strips if you like, after the wires are secured and placement is where you can make adjustments on the fly as needed.
Don't hide it under the seat as you'll want to have easy access to the controls as you drive. Most guys who use these are constant tweakers and want easy access to the controls on the EQ. Yes, for those who are less picky, one can set it and forget it too. If that is your preference, then it would be fine to mount back near the amps and set it once and forget it.
This would save you considerable time and money on RCA cables. But then you'll lose the "on the fly" adjustments many of us SQ guys demand.
FYI: Have you ever noticed when listening to several CD's, one cut sounds great and no adjustments to EQ are needed. Then, the next track from the same set of musicians sounds terrible and we reach for the tone controls to get the right sound?
That's why I strongly suggest mounting this unit where you can make adjustments as you drive w/o having to look at it. (With time and experience, one can make desired adjustments when blindfolded)
Cheers mate,
Swez
PS Gear lever is a good term as that is what it does. Somehow American's opted for "Stick Shift" as the preferred term. Ahhh, what do we know about proper King's English? American's were generally rebels from the start. That's why our forefathers left "not -so-jolly" ol England. Many were misfits, anarchists and outcasts in that era or wanted more religious freedom then found under the crown.
If we look at 200+ years of history, it turns out that America has done well to separated from our Mother Country. (England) However, we have since grown up a bit, mended broken ties and have become good supporters to England in her times of need. (WW I & WW II) Now, the Brits and Americans are tight on many key issues, but divided on others. I often wonder what our UK brothers think about thier bratty and often brash American counterparts? (Tony Blair and George Bush ect?)
Dreamerrr on 06/5/2007 04:56:48
Hey. Just a quick update to let you guys know what I've been upto over the past week or so.
I've managed to buy the relay(s) (thanks for the link swez), the quenching diode (got two of them), the remote in-line fuse with 1amp fuse, several hundred ring connectors, another T-130, a 12" sub box and the clarion eq, all of which should be arriving anyday now.
Once I've got the clarion, I'll have a look to see where the best place for fitting it is, and then I'll be able to decide what length cabling I'm going to need. I've got an e-bay store which has all the cabling I need for the install, so I'll make a bulk order from them and hopfully get a small shipping discount.
So now, I'm almost at the point of install, and so increably geeked out on car sound that my girl friend hates me right now... ;)
I'll let you know when it's all here. Can you feel the excitment? - B.
swez on 06/5/2007 09:16:20
Very good progress to date Dream...
Uhmmm, we all know that car audio systems are "chick chasers". When doing such extensive projects, there's little time and money left for dating. (She's feeling neglected, put on the back burner and out of the loop) Just calmly explain that you are in a new project that demands a lot of time, concentration and funds to pull it off well. Try to make 1 date night each week while in this project and explain that it will not be like this forever.
If she does not respect that, whines and gives ya a raft of crap about it, you have a good idea where her emotional needs are and can extrapolate that into what to expect in a serious, long-term dating scenario that might lead to marriage later. If you two cannot learn to compromise now, it only gets worse later.
Choose wisely now,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/6/2007 08:39:07
Hey Swez,
Yeah, the missus is fine. She knows I like to imerse myself in a project.
Okay, so I'm now starting to get everything together (recieved the Clarion and the relay) for the install and would like to go over how I'm going to connect everything. So if you don't mind, I'll repeat some of the things said before but just to be sure on everything:
Power:
4 gauge to 15A inline fuse, then to the D. Block.
D. Block (3 x 8 gauge) to each amp.
From battery, a 16 gauge power wire to the EQ (I think), do I need a 10A fuse here?
Ground from each amp (3x 8 gauge) to the ground point.
ground from the EQ to a ground point.
Remote:
From HU to 1A inline fuse, then into the relay, then into the EQ.
From the EQ (daisy chain) into the Jensen and daisy chained to the first of the T-130's then into the second T-130.
RCAs:
0.5m RCA from HU to EQ
3 x 5m RCA's from EQ to each amp
1 x 5m RCA from the CD changer to the HU
Then, about the settings on all the amps and on the EQ. When setting up all the amps, do I have to turn the boost all the way down or keep it all the way up, and then adjust it only on the EQ? Also there is a frequency option on top of the EQ, I think the options are 60 to 90? Which one should it be on, as well as each amp (as I think they also have the same option)? What about the bass boost option? On or Off for each amp?
Also, I have to setup the quenching diode. So, having looked at that site above, I noticed that you connect the diode from the ground to the positive, with the bar (on the diode) sitting on the positive side. And when I say connect, I solder the diode onto the relay? Is that correct?
With the EQ, I got a 1A 240volt fuse. should I use that on the relay side of things? Or I have an inline fuse for both the reomte (1A), and the positive wire (10A)?
I think thats about it... is there anything that I've missed?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/6/2007 09:16:03
Do you have Power Point to read and make drawings with? Pictures are so much easier, though they take longer to map out.
Yes, the quenching diode is best soldered as noted in the diagram at bcae1 site. (Between relay coil and REMote feeder line) Basically a one way switch.
Here's a general method that will work for most installs:
HU/EQ power wiring:
1. REMote on HU to relay coil only (1A inline fuse between HU and relay coil)
2. Relay needs a separate power lead that is constant +12 volts (fuse this too @ 10A's or less)
3. Relay output lead goes to power your amp REMotes (Daisy chain is good) You can fuse this low too... 5-10A's)
4. EQ needs a good ground (Same as HU ground is good, to floor pan or bare metal in dash
EQ to amps: (Signal level RCA's)
1. One short pair RCA's from HU to EQ input (Front channel HU tap is fine)
2. Three pairs of RCA outputs from EQ to respective amps (Front, rear and sub amps respectively
3. If EQ and amps have HP/LP filters, use the amp filters only
4. For initial setup steps, use NO bass boost functions on all amps or EQ (Set HU tone controls to "flat" for now. (No cut/boost as the EQ will do this for you later in the tweaking stages)
5. Set HPF's on front and rear channel amps to 80 Hz for now (Can be tweaked later as needed)
6. Set LPF on sub amp to 80 Hz for now too (Can be tweaked later as needed)
I'll stop here and see how well you can interpret and digest the given info so far. After this is well understood, we'll proceed to power wiring, fusing shemes to your D-block/amps and grounding of amps.
This D-block mentioned, is it the 2x #4 gage inputs and 4 x #8 outputs noted before? (Voodoo D-Block)
Swez
PS Confirm your undertsanding of this info and if you wish, make a block diagram to insure we both have a clear picture of the methods noted above.
Dreamerrr on 06/6/2007 19:30:27
Hi Swez,
I've just put together a quick map of what I think should go where:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/Asembly_small.jpg
I've just had a closer look at the two different types of AMPs, and the two T-130's have OFF, High pass and Low pass options. Should I turn them off, or as you've said above? And on the Clarion what do I set the Selectable 60/90 Hz Low-Pass Crossover to be on? Here is a pic of what I'm talking about:
http://www.mchiptr.com/media/products/main/EQS746.jpg
As I'm not going to be upgrading for a while after this system is finished, I opted for the voodoo 1 x 4awg in, and 4 x 8awg out D. Block.
Thanks,
Bryan
swez on 06/7/2007 06:51:58
Your schematic is correct and well done too. The only error I see is the main fuse off the BAT to your D-block. It shows a 15A fuse near the battery. THIS SHOULD BE AN 80-100A fuse here. (ANL style fuse and holder are your best bet here)
On your EQ LPF, use the 90 Hz. setting to feed your Jensen/Picard sub. Set the LPF on the Jensen amp to ~80 Hz and adjust as needed later.
On your Alpine 130's, set the HPF feature to 80 Hz. This will allow all highs to pass above 80 Hz, to your mid/high speakers.
The #4 gage main line should be enough to feed all 3 amps well as each amp gets a #8 power and ground. (Good to go there)
Other than that, things are in good shape.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/12/2007 10:47:00
Hi Swez,
Thought I'd give you a quick update.
I've started installing everything which is taking longer than I thought it was going to. I've put the sub into the new sub box, finally managed to get most of the correct wiring which I need, and started to rip off my dash board to figure out what does where.
I've got a few quick questions. I needed alittle extra wiring for the remote wire, and all I could find over lunch was some 20/0.2 wire. Will this be large enough for the remote? I was also thinking of using it for the power and gnd of the EQ. Now having bought a small amount of the wire, I noticed that it's not copper inside, its a kind of silver wire? I'm guessing that it's used in computer applications and not sure it's a good idea for the application I'm using it for.
I'll be taking some photos when I get home of the install.
I've also got a few parts still on order, like the soldering iron, and a connector for the main power wire (battery side).
Cheers,
Bryan
PS I also got the 80 AMP power wire fuse. I can't believe that more places around london don't stock these kind of components. It's absolutely amazing to me that I have to order from somewhere up country to get the correct parts!?
swez on 06/12/2007 13:38:45
Ahhh, making good progress and yes, to do this well, it's a long process indeed. But when all is said and done, you should be very happy with the results after all the tweaks are made.
As for the Remote extetion line, #20 gage is OK as this is a very low wattage feeder to amps and EQ Rems. Copper is best for conductivity, but silver or pre-tinned copper works well too. Aluminum wire should be avoided however. Why? "Galvanic effects"... when 2 dissimilar metals are joined, oxides will form and eventually become a problem and that circuit will become problematic.
I would not use #20 gage line to power and ground the EQ. Use #16-18 gage wires here for best results. One can buy any gage bulk wire at the local hardware stores here in the States. You can buy color coded wires or standard lamp cord, or speaker cables too. Just note polarity when using lamp or speaker cord. In most cases, we get speaker wire that is easy to ID. One line is often copper and the other is tinned copper. (Silvery look to it)
Tech Tip: For car audio apps, always use strand wire and never solid core wires. Solid core is only good for fixed installs like phone cables and home/commercial/industrial applictaions which are installed in conduits.
What is the airspace for that sub enclosure you bought for your Picard sub anyway? If sealed, I would hope to see 1.0 Ft^3 +/- 0.25 ft^3.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 06/12/2007 15:30:22
If you have to use lamp cord you can maintain proper polarity by looking closley at the insulation, one conductor has tiny ribs on the insulation and the other is smooth. Even the clear lamp wire has the ribs but they are hardest to see. Most clear has one conductor tinned so it looks silver in color.
Dreamerrr on 06/13/2007 11:46:39
Alright... I'll have to organise some decent 16 gauge for the power.
I remember somewhere earlier in the post, someone mentions that the reason why sometimes you get the engine noise in the sound, is because wires are either really close to each other, or crossing... something like that, but what wasn't said was if I should split the RCA's to go down one side of the car, and the power cables down the other, and if that would help?
Jamesp - I'm not too sure what you mean about using the lamp cord. You mentioned that it's got an insulation side, and a smooth side, but if I look at the wire (either blue, brown or green), I don't see a smooth or tiny ribbed side. Could you explain?
Thanks,
Bryan
swez on 06/13/2007 12:23:13
To eliminate "ground loops" that cause engine noise in the audio system, it is best to run the main power line feeder on one side of the vehicle and RCA signal cables on the other side. The general rule of thumb is 18" apart or more.
Lamp cord is common and it has 2 wire jackets fused together. (2 conductor) The American Wire Gage Society, AWG... stipulates that the jackets have some form of ID markings for polarity ID. In most cases, one side of the pair is smooth and round. The other side can be ribbed or have a flat indent on the jacket. Some wires even have stamped information to help with polarity ID.
It's better to use 2-3 colored wires when running lines where polarity issues are a concern. (DC circuits and speaker cables) The most common colors, (Colours for you Brits) are:
Ground: Black or green
Constant +12 volts: Yellow
ACC switched +12 volts: Red
Hope that helps,
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/13/2007 16:08:21
Thanks.
I've just check the measurements of the box, and I'm not sure that I'm correct in calculation. Here are my measurements:
Width - 85cm
Height - 36cm
Depth 1 - 17.5cm
Depth 2 - 27.5cm
I converted those measurements into inches using google, and then entered them into the web page link you mentioned above. The result came back 1.72259 cubic feet. But somehow I just don't think it's correct. When I was putting the sub into the box, it only just managed to fit in. And if the calculations are correct what does that mean for the sound quality?
I've taken some pictures, which I'll post abit later of the install.
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/13/2007 17:03:51
Bryan,
OK, I ran some numbers too and depending on the board thickness used in this box, we have a range of 1.6 to 1.7 ft^3 minus the sub displacement. (Say about 0.07ft^3)
Since we do not have the T/S parameters of this sub, am thinking this sub will sound boomy and have sluggish bass response in a sealed box that is over 1.2 ft^3 internally. One can compensate for this by adding blocks of wood to decrease the internal airspace of the box, if that is indeed the case.
I suggest you try the box as is and go easy on the power you throw at this Picard sub initially. If the sub begins to show signs it's getting too sloppy and wild excursions, then adding internal blocks is the next step.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/14/2007 04:54:12
Thanks Swez,
As usual, I have a quick question. For the normal un-educated ear, what should I be listening for that would make the sub sloppy with wild excursions? Do I take a song that I know well and listen for differences in the bass line? Or if the bass isn't acurate to the front mid's bass line?
Cheers,
Bryan
PS the board thickness is 3/4".
swez on 06/14/2007 11:22:23
OK, if the board is 3/4", you're down to 1.6 ft^3.
Yes, listen for chrisp, well defined bass on music you know well. Electronica type music has some of the more purer tones if the bass lines are fast changing and use keyboard based tone generators. (Synth-bass) This is good for accuracy and response capabilities if the bass engine.
Jazz cuts can give a sub a good workout too. One I like a lot is a bass solo off Yanni's "Live at the Acropolis" CD. This guy is fantastic on his riffs, use of harmonics and slap bass techniques. (Track #4: The Rain Rust Fall) His solo starts at 3:50 and Wow... this fella has talent. Although there is not a lot of low bass in this solo, it moves fast and a very good test for sub response and accuracy in rapid transitions.
If you listen to deep bass tones that are common to Rap and Hip Hop, "cone whop" or "brapping" sounds tell us the sub cannot handle the juiced up bass at higher SPL levels.
If the suspension system, (Spider, surround and dampening of the motor system is weak) it does not have enough resistance and the larger airspace is not able to provide enough back pressure to keep the cone within normal operating limits. Hense, we often hear mechanical noise from the sub that will eventually destroy itself.
Lastly, in larger boxes, bass lines are sloppy in the transitions from one octave to 3rds and 5ths above and below. Most subs will sound pretty good at say 55 Hz. (That's low "A" open on a 4 string bass) But as we drop to the lowest string, "E" open, this is where subs can fall apart. The transitions between like low "G" and "F" show the shortfalls in any poorly designed sub, enclosure or EQ methods.
Swez
PS I gave a lot more information than you may be able to understand at the moment. However, there are others that may be tracking this post as well, (Lurker's) and they too may benefit from the extra details. We have a lot of silent readership here and I want to address them as well as your specific needs.
Dreamerrr on 06/17/2007 19:18:55
Thanks Swez, I think that the more details the better, as most of us are trying to learn about sound. I've already found that there is more to car sound than I thought was possible, and I'm sure from here, it gets even more complicated.
I'm about to start work on the relay and quneching diode. However, I'd just like to double check something that I'm not 100% certain on. On the webite mentioned above, there is a diagram of the quenching diode being connected inbetween the positive and negative terminals, but in the picture lower down the page, it doesn't seem like the diode is connected to the positve and ground wires (I'm only going on the colour of the wires), so I'd like to 100% certain that I should be connecting the diode between the 30 (pos) and 85 (gnd) with the striped end on the positive side?
Also, I've been thinking about the bridging of the Jensen amp. What exactly do I have to do to bridge the two channels? Is it just a switch I have to flick? Or do I have to join the two channels with wires that go to the sub?
So far I've managed to get most the power wires done and installed into the left hand side of the car. Tomorrow I should have enough time to finish the install (RCA's and EQ install). Can't wait!
I've taken some pictures but am having problems getting on to the photo bucket wesite, so I'll take some more tomorrow and will post the rest of the install photos as well.
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 06/17/2007 19:22:52
Here are the pictures I finally managed to upload. Just some of the car in a slight disassembled state and what she looks like from the outside:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior05.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior04.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior03.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior02.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/interior01.jpg
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/17/2007 22:05:53
The Quenching diode is connected to pins 85 and 86 on this relay. If you look at the diagrams at bcae1, it shows one end of the diode goes from the HU REMote pin to ground.
Pin 85 is HU Remote
Pin 86 is ground
A diode is a simle one-way switch. It allows power to flow in only one direction and blocks power from flowing in the reverse direction. In this application, Pin 85 is the power supply feed from the HU REMote. When the HU is switched on, the REM also powers up the coil in the relay and closes the contacts of the relay so that your add on devices now get power from the AUX power feed line. (Pins 87 & 30 and ground, which is Pin 86) Are you still with me on this?
The side of the diode with the dark band is soldered to pin 85.
The opposite side of the diode is soldered to pin 86.
Here's how it works:
When the HU is turned on, the diode will pass current from the HU REM to the relay coil and energize the coil. When the coil is energized, it completes a circuit that energizes pin #30. Now we have much power to feed other devices w/o damage to the HU REM.
When we shut off the HU. The REM power line stops providing power to the coil and the coil will open up again. (Open circuit) Now, the devices connected to Pin #30 also shut off.
However, when the relay coil loses power, the energy stored in the coil needs a place to drain safely to ground and not back to the HU REM supply transistor. (This technique is called reverse EMF shunting)
Tech Tip: Relay coils produce a voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses. (Rever EMF) This reverse flow of current can damage the HU REM chip. To prevent that, we use the quenching diode to direct this spike safely to ground and not back to the HU.
OK, I took the long route on explaining how to use the "Quenching Diode" here. I hope it is clear what it does, how to use it properly and why it's important. If you wish, make a diagram and show me how you have interpreted the use of the relay and diode in this application. I will review it and double check your work before you install it later OK? If you got the details right, the diagram will confirm your understanding or confusion. (This is not easy for non- electrical guys to understand) If we need to go over it again in picture form, no prob.
Swez - COFFEE -
swez on 06/17/2007 23:03:28
About bridging the Jensen amp, here's a copy of the manual for that amp. Print a copy for your files and look on page 8 for the proper way to bridge your amp to the 4 ohm Picard sub:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/110/110XA2250.PDF
L+ goes to sub + terminal
L- not used
R- to sub - terminal
R+ not used
LPF enabled
LPF setting is ~80-100 Hz.
Bass Boost: Should not need it, but can if desired
FYI: You may wish to start looking for some add on tweeters for the Octane front speakers mentioned before. This will add a lot to the Hi-Fi clarity in the front stage of your ride. (Good mids and much better Highs)
A 3/4" - 1.0" surface or flush mount system would be fine. I suggest soft dome textile or silk tweeters as these are more natural sounding than most metal dome tweeters. As for power handling, 30-50 watts RMS, 4 ohms is a good choice. The only thing needed would be passive filterin capacitors to block mids that would damage the tweeters. No need to spen huge money on these tweets either. $30.00 a pair should get the job done.
Once you have a set of tweeters you's like to use, I'll look at the specs and tell you what filtering caps to use.
Swez
PS You have been a most excellent student to date and I am enjoying the process and progress you have made. HAPPY
Look at how much you have learned already!!! Yes, there's more to come, but when you are done, this system is going to sound so much better than you would have ever guess was possible with the gear you have now. This is going to be a real big step up from the prior system install. CLAP
I looked at your pics and you are doing a great job at dismantling the dash and wire runs should be easier with all the panels removed.
Have you found a good spot for your Clarion EQ yet?
Dreamerrr on 06/18/2007 08:34:56
Hi Swez...
Okay, so I spent alot of yesterday installing the wiring, ripping my hands to pieces. Lesson for the day - bare metal is sharp...
So far, I've managed to lay down all the RCA's, and all the power lines, as well as the remote. What still has to be done, is make a mounting board for the two T-130's and maybe the CD changer if I can fit it on. The Jensen has been mounted on the rear of the sub box to save alittle space around the other amps, then I have to connect up the relay and quenching diode, lay the right hand side speaker cable for the front mid, and then just connect the power to the battery, although I'm waiting for everything to be setup before I hit the power switch.
Yes I have found a place for the Clarion. Just in front of the gear lever (stick shift).
I had something alittle strange happen yesterday. After I finished install of the cabling, I took a look at the head unit. Now, I didn't mention before that I had a second head unit connected in my car, which was a kenwood with D-Mask, as some of the connections in the face had faults, and there was no display. So, I removed the 2nd HU, and took a look at the wiring harness which was jacked to the 1st HU's harness. I carefully disconnected all the wires that were jacked into the 1st HU's harness (and this is when the problem comes in), I took the HU, plugged it in, and... wait for it... NOTHING... Just like there is absolutely no power getting to it. Now my question is if there is something other than the power wire that could affect the HU not switching on?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/18/2007 15:45:35
Hello Bryan,
Yes, running wires in tight places with sharp metal all around, that's one thing we can count on... nicks, scatches and abrasions of all kinds. (I feel you pain... BTDT many times)
No power to your Sony HU? Does the engine start? After many hours of working with just dome lights and such on, this will sap a battery pretty low. If the car does start, let it run for a bit as it takes some time to recharge a very low battery.
The other thing to look for here, blown fuses. That would be the one in the fuse panel marked "Radio" in most cases and also look at the fuse in the HU to insure it's OK.
The HU will only turn on when the engine is running or the key is in the ACC/IGN positions. Otherwise, there is no power to turn the HU on.
This easiest way to wire an Aftermarket HU to a factory harness, is to use a harness conversion kit that is specific to your vehicle. These are low cost, easy to use and a real time saver. If you don't have one now, please do get one. Your's will look much like this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kO1YsQKacia/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=103000&tab=morephotos&pi=1&i=120701722&display=L#Tab
If you have this installed correctly and the HU is not working, time to pull out a 12 volt test probe or DMM and start probing for voltages off the following harness color codes:
Red = + 12 volt only when key is in ACC/IGN modes
Yellow = + 12 volts all the time
Black = Ground/Earth or return
Orange = Illumination (Connected to dash lighting or N/C)
Tech tip: The wires noted should have power and one end of the probe/clip is connected to body ground and the other probes each wire noted. With out a good ground, you'll get no readings or error readings.
If this is not happening, we need to look closer at the items noted above. This Sony HU was working before you started right. So, as long as nothing major has changed, (save for a dead battery of a blown fuse) it should be OK now right?
Oh, those Octane speakers up front, are they coaxial speakers? (Meaning, they have a midrange and tweeter in the same speaker basket? If yes, no need for add on tweeters. However, if there is only a midrange speaker and no tweeters, add on tweeters are highly recommended.
If you have any question about the Sony HU wiring codes, consult the manual and it will give you all the wire functions:
http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mdxc6500r_manual/
Comments? Keep em coming,
Dave
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 06:08:48
Hi Swez,
So I've been working away, and I've got a mounting board for the amps now, so they're now in the boot (trunk), just waiting to be connected up. The only wire I've yet to install is the second front speaker wire, but I'll get around to that tonight.
I'm still having issues with the Head Unit. Yes, the car starts, and with the ignition turned on, but the HU stays dead. Very depressing. I'll be taking it around to the a car place that does sound over the week-end to see if anyone knows what the problem is. Unfortuantly, I don't have one of those volt testers, so I can't find where the proplem is.
Another question for you, for the GND wires of the relay and the EQ, I found a bolt that is already used as a ground for the battery. Now, I haven't connected the GND wire to the battery, but from the battery, there is a wire running to the frame, and I connected them there. Is that okay, seeing as though there is also a wire comming straight off the battery?
As for the Octane speakers, yeah, they are coaxial. Well, they do have a small tweeter looking thing in the middle of the cone. If I got some tweeters, would I have to connect them to the wires that are connected to front mids, or would I connect them to another amp?
Cheers,
Bryan
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 06:56:31
Just one quick other thing I've been thinking about. Power. Running 3 amps, a sub, 6x9's and mids off of the battery, is that going to kill the battery? Will there be enough power to keep the battery charged as well running the sound, not to mention starting the car?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/22/2007 09:28:27
Hello Bryan,
Running 3 amps of this size should be managable for your car. These are not huge power hog amps, so they will not pose a major threat to your car electricals. The Jensen amp is the largest power consuming amp for your sub and depending on how hard you push the bass, that will determine the power drain on your system at large.
If the battery is more than 4-5 years old, it may be time to replace it soon. I would guess this car is probably on the 2nd battery and a few years on it at that. So, if it's weak now, it will show up more as an issue later. We can address that later as needed.
As for grounding your relay, almost all metal parts in a car are grounded. That means the floor pan, firewall and any metal parts welded or bolted to the chassis in the boot are good grounding sources. For ease of wiring, the relay can be mounted in the boot, near the amps and powered off one of your open ports in the D-block.
The ground used for your amps can be the same ground for your relay too. Yes, this means a long wire from the HU REMote, to the boot, (Where the relay is) but that's a very common practice too. Keep it simple and easy to install.
As for this HU not working now, something in the HU is not getting power from the main harness. It could be a poor ground to the HU, the Red or Yellow wires are not getting the +12 volts they need from the harness or a blown fuse. A good car audio tech should be able to diagnose and correct this in a matter of minutes. It may be as simple as a poor wiring splice in the dash area too. Aftermarket HU's need "dedicated grounds". (Do not use the factory harness ground alone as it is often shared by the dash instruments and other devices) Using the factory harness ground will often lead to noise and ground loop problems later. It's best to ground the HU to a good bare metal ground in the dash, firewall or floor pan.
Tech Tip: An electrical test meter is a very handy thing to have around. One can test AC/DC voltages, resistance of a load, use it as a continuity tester and more. It can also test how much voltage the amps are getting from the BAT/ALT and any voltage drops we may see at the amplifier voltage inputs. It is also a good tool to meansure AC signal voltage coming out of our amplifiers that feed the speakers and sub(s). We can buy low budget Digital meters in the US for $20.00. Here's a good example of a good, low cost DMM: (I use one similar to this a lot)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103174&cp=&sr=1&origkw=Multimeters&kw=multimeters&parentPage=search
Lastly, when the engine is running, the Alternator charges the battery and supplies power to all electrical devices in the vehicle. If the power draw of any electrical devices becomes larger than the ALT can manage on its own, it can borrow reserve power from the battery for short durations. (That's why they call it a storage battery)
If the dash intrument cluster has a voltage gage, we can tell at a glance how hard the charging system is working and/or if there is a failure pending too. When the system is healthy, we note a solid 13.5 volts on the gage or higher, when the engine is running and the ALT is charging properly. If the gage drops below ~12.5 volts, the system is having a hard time keeping up with power demands on the system.
When the engine is shut off, the gage will read about 12.0 - 12.5 volts. (Key in ACC/IGN modes) This is the voltage of the storage battery by itself. If the system drops below about 10.5 volts, the system has a problem and the car will eventually shut down and not start. This can indicate a failing ALT or battery.
Got all that now?
Swez
PS It is not a good idea to run our amps and such for very long on just the battery power alone. Yes, we can do this for a few minutes w/o a major drain on the battery. But when using our gear at high power levels, we need the engine running to provide the needed power for the amps used.
Dreamerrr on 06/22/2007 10:52:19
Hi Swez,
I've found this one, it should do the job right?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=37279&criteria=Multimeter&doy=22m6
Also, seeing as though I've already connected the grounds, would it be okay to leave them where they are (on the frame where the battery negative connects to the frame)?
I think I might have found the problem with the HU (hopfully). In reading through the manual, it states that if you're installing the HU for the first time, or for some reason the power went off (change of battery etc,.), then you have to hit the reset button. Now, I'm not sure that this is really the fix, but it's worth a try.
And i think that you're right about the battery. I think that I'll have to replace it within the next year. The car fires up after the first turn, but that first turn coming from the battery seems a little slow for my liking.
Also, in going through the manual for the HU, I couldn't find a page that details which wire does what. You mentioned that the two wires I should be looking for are the red and yellow wires? What are they for? Is there a standard to what the wires are?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/22/2007 19:42:50
Yep that meter will work! Good, simple and easy to use. When you get it, I can help you figure out how to use the key features. (AC volts, DC volts, Ohmic loads) In the mean time, read the "destructions" when you get the meter. Most come with helpful app notes. Others assume the user knows how to use it correctly.
The ground line you have should be OK. Just make sure it's connected down to bare metal and free of paint, rust or grime. When you get the meter, I can show you how to confirm if this ground is good or not. This ground can be used for the relay, HU and EQ/LD if you wish.
Hey, a side bar here... a clean copy of this HU manual:
http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sony/sony_europe/sony_MDX-C6500RV_operation_manual.pdf
Reset button, definitely a good call. Since the HU memory has been stored on a chip and the chip has lost power, the reset function on page 7 might be helpful. This is only the User's Manual. It is 32 pages in English and a diagnotics table at the end too. Pgs 29-31)
Hey, I was just looking at the manual for a Sony CDX-C6850 I have packed away in my garage. A buddy gave it to me when I did some install work for him. It has many of the same features as your HU but no MD player... just a CD slot and a few more features than your HU. I'll dig it out and have a look as these units are probably identical in wiring needs in many ways. (This one has 3 RCA preouts.... Front/Rear/Sub and HP/LP filters) Go figure huh... I don't have a copy of the Installer's manual though. Guess I'll go hunt it down and then can help you too. That manual has the wiring coloor codes and what goes where too. I would guess that most CDX-Cxxxx HU's are the same. Let's see what we can find on the installer manual side.
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 12:30:31
Hi Swez,
Just a quick update for you. I've managed to find the problem with the power. It seems that when the last owner did the install, he cut into a wire for the GND of the HU, but didn't cut away the plastic properly. So, I reconnected the wire properly, and now everything works again.
I've also managed to install all the power wire, and connected them to the AMPs, with gnd's etc,. Now it's time to double check the relay wires and connect up the EQ. Everything is almost ready to go. Once I've connected all those up, I'll connect the main power to the battery, and we'll see if everything switches on.
Something I wanted to check with you though. In the rear of the HU, there are 3 RCA plugs. Firstly the input, which I used to plug the CD shuttle into, and the other two are outs for the front and rear speakers. I'm not sure on which one to use to the EQ. So far I've used the front out. Should I change this to the rear out?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/23/2007 13:19:20
Good, you found the HU issue!!! CLAP
As for the connections between the HU and EQ/LD, use the front channel RCA's from the HU to the input side of the EQ. From there, the EQA has output pairs to F,R & S amp channels and controls for each.
1. Master volume
2. Fade control (F/R balance)
3. Sub volume (Boost/cut sub output)
4. Mid/high EQ
5. Sub EQ
Think of the EQ/LD as a preamp mixer. It not only sends the proper signals to the correct amp assignment channels, but it also has EQ features and kicks up the input voltage to each amp used.
This EQ/LD does a lot. Your HU only supplies L/R channel audio signals and controls overall features like:
1. Source selection (AM/FM/MB, MD and CD Changer)
2. Audio signal volume from the HU
3. Basic Bass/Treble boost
4. REMote feed turn on signal to relay/amps
The EQ/LD pretty much does everything else.
1. 3 paired channels control (F/R & S)
2. Mixing/balancing full range signals (F/R & S)
3. EQ for Mid/high/sub
4. Gain matching of F/R & Sub channels
5. Master Gain control for Sub and full range amps
Got all that?
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 14:16:21
Hi Swez,
Yip, got all that... I think that was the reason why I decided (or you convinced me) to go for the EQ. Basically, it was the EQ (which in itself is a really cool addition), but the HU didn't have enough control over the sound. So it was either, new HU, or cool toy add-on which was also cheaper than the new HU.
Okay, so, I've got some good news and some bad news. I've finished installing everything except one speaker cable (front right), turned on the ignition, switched on the CD, and NOTHING! Damn it! SAD Checked the amps... no power. So, I took the relay, and just connected the remote wires instead of going through the relay, and all three amps switched on (which is the good news GRIN PROUD ).
So I guess now, the problem lies in the relay some how. I've connected everything the way you mentioned above, and nothing.
Pin 85 is HU REMote
Pin 86 is GND
Pin 30 is POS
Pin 87 is EQ REMote
right?
What do reckon it could be swez? Do you think that I could have the wrong relay ?THINK
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/23/2007 17:50:12
"Danger.... Will Robinson!!!" Running all 3 amps off the HU REMote + the relay coil will overload the REM chip and render it useless. (Blown power chip for REM)
The pin outs on the relay seem to be correct, as long as it's a 12 volt DC relay, that part is good.
Does the EQ fire up off of Pin 87? If yes, then the amp remotes also need to be connected to pin 87. If not, you make have the "quenching diode" install improperly. This diode is connected between Pin 85 and Pin 86.
When installed properly, the diode passes current in only one direction. If wired correctly, as soon as the HU is turned on, you can feel/hear the relay coil click to the on position. This means the coil is now energized and power will flow from Pin 87.
If the diode is wired in reverse direction, no power to relay solinoid and no power at pin 87 either. A quick test would be to remove one leg of the diode at Pin 85. If Pin 87 now has power, the diode polarity needs to be reversed. Worst case, remove the diode and run w/o it.
Swez
Pin 85 is HU REMote
Pin 86 is GND
Pin 30 is POS
Pin 87 is EQ REMote, and amp remotes
Dreamerrr on 06/23/2007 22:23:50
Okay, I'll double check everything in the morning.
I didn't check that the EQ was working as I've just got to hook up the speakers, and was only checking that the amps were getting power. If the EQ isn't working, then I'd guess that the GND's on both are incorrect (as they're grounded to the same place).
So right now, I've got the remote connected from the HU to the 1A fuse, into the relay, then from relay to the EQ, daisy chained to the first of the amps, then the second and then the third. Am I right in saying that I might have to connect the amps directly from the 87 pin?
I took a picture of the relay and EQ setup this afternoon, but my phone has been giving me some hassles, so I should be able to get it online at some point tomorrow. I'll take off a side of the diode as you mentioned and hopefully that'll work.
In the below picture (taken when I first started), you can see on the Jensen that it's got three knobs on it. First, is the boost, the second and third are the HPF and LPF settings and go from 0 to 240. What are they exaclty and what should I set them to? I'm guessing that it's the amount of power going to each frequency? Or possibly the amount of signal sent to each pass?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/Dreamerrr_/20052007197.jpg
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/24/2007 01:02:13
If the diode is installed Bass-ack-wards, the EQ will not power up and neither will the amps off pin 87 of the relay.
For your Jensen sub amp, use the LPF filter, set between roughly 80-100 Hz. This allows only bass signals to pass through this amp and into your sub. Since the range is so wide on the dial, you may have to S.W.A.G. it when the tweaking process begins.
S.W.A.G. = Scientific Wild Azz Guess methodology SMILE
Basically, no vocals, no mids here. Only Bass and kick drum and low tone synth are passed to the sub. The rest goes to your mid/high amps and speakers.
I hope it's only the diode is wired wrong. You'll know for sure if the EQ lamps do not come on.
Dave
PS Have a good night as I plan to sleep in late tomorrow. It's been a long day and we have a 4 hour time zone difference. London is "0" GMT right? I am " -4 hours" GMT here. Amazingly, it seems to work out OK regardless.
Keep the faith and be patient Bryan, we'll get ya home in time for Mid-summer at this pace! "zzzzzzzz" good night!
Dreamerrr on 06/24/2007 10:52:26
IT WORKS!!! If you remember, the ebay auction link you posted had two relays? I used the other one which worked, then I attached the spare diode to it in the opposite direction, switched it on, and it works! Haven't had a chance to turn it up, but that'll come tomorrow when I've installed the last speaker cable. Almost there.
Could you give me some guides to the setup of the system, e.g. turn the HU and AMPs up, and then adjust the sound using only the EQ... or something like that?
Cheers,
Bryan
swez on 06/24/2007 13:55:24
Yes, I can do tis for you later. This is time consuming and your meter will be most helpful too. (Not so much on full range amps, but sub tweaks for sure.
Some of the tuning is best by voltage meter readings, The full range is best done by ear and trial and error.
We do have methods in outrDIY section as a good guide too:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
If you have questions, just ask...
Swez
Dreamerrr on 06/25/2007 13:33:08
Hey Swez,
Nice little artical you've got. So, I've now gone out and bought the voltage meter. I do however feel like an idiot though, as I only know the OHM sign and the diode sign (which I didn't know before starting this project).
So, where should I start? And how does measuring voltage translate into good well balanced sound?
Cheers,
Bryan.
swez on 06/25/2007 14:17:31
The sub amp setup is easy and usually the last itme to tweak. Here, we use the AC voltage side of the meter. (The 3:00 side) More on that later.
As for dialing in your T130's, it's harder to get accurate measurements of AC voltage when crossovers are used. We often get false readings off the meter when reading inductive/capacitive loads. Here, you can do tis pretty well by ear.
1. Start with the front stage amp and speakers and follow the method outline in the link I gave you before. We are looking for clean power to the speakers when the HU is set to "flat tone controls" and 80% HU volume settings.
2. Since the EQ is also part of the audio chain, set the EQ sliders to flat, (No boost/no cut and adjust the Master volume to midpoint of its range and then adjust amp gains for the front speakers to get a clean, strong signal.
3. Once you have the front stage dialed in well, we then move to the rear stage amp and repeat the process. The trick here, is to balance the rear speakers by using the gain settings for that amp. (We don't wnat the rear speakers to overpower the front speakers) Rear speakers often sound louder then front speakers and require less power to balance the F/R stages. Minor tweaks can also be done via the fade feature on the EQ.
4. Finally, we do the sub amp in the same manner. Since the EQ has a Sub control feature, one can control how much or little bass is added by adjusting this dial.
As for your filter settings on all amps, start here:
Front amp HPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
Rear amp HPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
Sub amp LPF setting: ~80-100 Hz.
One can adjust the filter settings a tad higher or lower, depending on the cone sizes used in the front or rear. If we hear speaker cone whopping at high SPL and low frequencies, adjust the HPF settings until the problem is corrected.
To set your sub amp properly, do the steps noted above and use the AC voltage side of the meter. (3:00 position of the selector) Shoot for 34.0 volts AC when the sub amp is banging at the highest level SPL you will be using. This allows a few more volts of clean power that will come from the EQ settings later. We measure AC voltage off the amp outputs that feed the sub.
Once you have things set up to your liking, take a measurement of the DC voltage at the battery using the DC volts selector side of the meter. (That's the 9:00 position on your selector dial on this meter) With the engine off and nothing electrical is on, you should expect a 12.0-12.5 volt reading off the battery terminals.
Now, go back to the amps and measure the DC voltage they are getting under the same conditions. (Ground and B+ terminals of each amp) Hopefully, you will see no more than a 0.5 volt drop between amps and the battery. (If amp voltages are much lower, something is not right) We can diagnose that if it shows up.
Now, start the engine and repeat the same steps. This time, the battery will read between 13.5 and 14.4 Volts DC. One should see about the same at each amp power lug. If the number are much lower than this, we may have a problem to look at later.
Finally, on this meter, you will use the lower right corner probe inputs only. Black is ground, the middle Red is Volts and Ohms readings. The top Red probe port is for reading amperage. You will not be using this feature in any of these tests.
Got all that?
Swez
PS It's most helpful to have a 2nd pair of hands to dial in the amp gains while another sits inside the car and listens to the results. In most cases, hand signals from the driver tell the guy dialing in the amps, what to do.
PSS When using EQ features on the HU, EQ or other sound shaping tools like loudness contour, it is best to cut the MIDS a few dB and use minimal boost on lows and highs. At first, it will feel a lot like "Juggling Jello". But with time and a little experimentation, you are gonna love having that EQ/LD at hand.
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