Just thought I would update you guys and let you know I pulled the trigger on a 15" SI Mag D2 after extensive research and multiple chats with the owner of Stereo Integrity. I am real excited to put this monster to the test! I will be putting this sub in a sealed enclosure at 2.75cuft powered by my 1000/1.
I am expecting a tremendous increase in SQ over the 12W7 and most likely I should see an increase in SPL in a sealed enclosure. I should recieve the sub by late next week or the beginning of the following. I'm 60% on having a custom box fabed for my vehicle but I think I could build a sealed box with the help of my carpenter buddy and his tools and save a few bucks.
30 Hertz good reccomendation on the Mag I found a whole new class of drivers during my research. Sound Splinter, Mach5 Audio, Ascendant, Tumult and Rainbow just to name a few. There is a how new world out there testing, abusing and reviewing these somewhat underground solid built performance subwoofers. The best of it all is the very competative price point offered and the level of service offered by these manufacturers.
Here is a link http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html
Replies (73)
MrBrownstone on 05/2/2007 19:49:39
I don't want to crap on your parade, but the SQ of your subwoofer is dependent upon:
Input signal
Box design
quality of speaker
in the case of the W7...I don't see a whole lot of improvement in the industry with respect to the quality of the speaker. The only real improvement you might see, particularly in a sealed enclosure, is the box placement OR, the box wasn't properly matched with the woofer.
With monster woofers, it's all about what you are trying to accomplish. You can get 100% SPL, 100% SQ, or 75% of one OR the other. You'll never get both.
The penalty for SPL is sound quality, and vice versa.
jamesp on 05/2/2007 21:45:55
D-man, hope you get what you are looking for with that sub.It sure looks good if that means anything.
swez on 05/2/2007 22:19:11
This may work out nice in the right box design. The extra cone area will help move more air and power rating is a good match for your 1000/1 too.
Keep us posted OK?
Dave
demetman on 05/2/2007 22:26:15
Point well taken Mr. Brownstone. Sometimes you need to take risks to reap rewards. I have been on here inquiring, researching and probing for opinions for weeks now and I have decided to try something new. At least know I will be able to tell you guys what the results are and if more SPL and SQ can be achieved using this driver.
It's only a subwoofer not a heart transplant. If sealed yeilds less than expected SPL I can always try a ported enclosure. I'm a little upset with the sugar coated info JL has claimed to get me to spend big bucks(adding 2nd 12W7 will yeild 3-6dB same power). I have been watching homeade videos showing peak excursion and output of this Mag and litterally this thing wangs real nice! soundsolutions.com has it all. I think I may have been fooling myself all thistime using a ported enclosure. My musical taste is all over the road and SQ has always been the key factor to quality music reproduction. The 12W7 does a poor job with kick drum bass(crossover set at 90Hz) and upper register of bass guitar, but really shines in the low low end and inaudable notes. Bass mekanik never sounded so good until the W7. I'll be sure to post a review after the Mag D2 is installed and broken in.
D
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 01:57:38
I think you'll be very happy with the performance of the Mag D2 Keep us posted on the progress and take some pics if possible =)
Glad I could help open your eyes to some of the other markets out there for high quality subs in a reasonable price bracket!
Take Care
-30
jamesp on 05/3/2007 09:01:47
Dementman, can the 12" Magl be had for $400 or less?
ttocs on 05/3/2007 09:11:34
if you know a carpenter with a table saw I would hit him up. A box for a carpenter with the proper tools is like asking somebody for a penny, it is nothing to them....
demetman on 05/3/2007 11:15:05
Jamesp sub shipped $475 from http://www.innovativeride.com/. I may hit you guys up for box design specs if I may. If I could save $250 a very generous donation to CK will be in line. Would you guys be able to help me out? A guy I work with does carpentry part time with all the tools needed.
I promise to post pictures of present install and Mag install.
D
swez on 05/3/2007 14:36:09
Yes, wecan help ya there too. Once you know the box specs for this sub, we can help you determine the design and fit issues and dimensions of the panels as needed. This one sealed right: (15")
http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html
Sealed: 2.3 - 3.0 ft^3
Swez
Victor on 05/3/2007 15:23:47
sealed box building shouldnt be an issue i guess.. simple and solid construction.
if u plan to go ported .. just for reference you can use something like this..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/Ported153.jpg
MrBrownstone on 05/3/2007 16:56:42
just bear in mind in this industry, 90% is installation, 10% is the product.
A Ferrari 350 vs a Chev Camaro SS wee 100K different in price, but reliability & performance were EQUAL!!!!!
Style, Ferrari all the way. However, with subwoofers, the style is actually inside the box, and who looks there anyway?
If you are unhappy with the performance of the W7, it's likely YOUR installation...unless the product is damaged. That woofer is friggin seriously overbuilt. I hope you exhausted all the installation tricks prior to going with a new woofer.
2 woofers in a similarly installed sealed enclosure will perform similarly. Unless you improperly accomodated your W7, it's a remarkable performer.
Good Luck
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 20:29:33
The 12W7 is a massive woofer that has always performed to its name. However there are woofers out there that offer the same performance at half the price.
Install is 90% of the outcome, product is the other 10
Personally I prefer to use the products not well known.
Either way, Solid product and you will be happy with it. If you need help with a design hit me up.
demetman on 05/3/2007 20:51:47
My buddy gave me the thumbs up on assisting me with the sealed enclosure fabrication. As per my conversations with Nick the owner of Stereo Integrity a sealed enclosure of 2.7cuft. should give me an excellant mix of SQ and SPL to compliment the acoustic property of my Dodge Magnum.
As for available trunk area I need to stay under 14.4". As for width I have 38.5" and length( top of back of seat to hatch) 32". This should yeild plenty of room for a very solid box. Any accessories(terminal carpet etc) should be considered first so I can order them from PE and have them ready for next week. Here is a link once again http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html.
Mr B. I fully understand proper installation makes the success of quality equipment. The performance of my W7 is not in question, I am simply the type of person who needs to experiment and switch things up at my own expence. shshshshsh wife knows nothing about this little project. I have been interested in car audio for over 15yrs having listened to many high powered quality systems over the years. I never took the time to learn how 12V audio worked nor have I been in a position to purchase high end equipment until later years. I had a "pro" audio shop butcher a very expensive install about a year ago leaving me with failed equip and many problems to fix on my own. I came here for help and Swez as well as others fixed me on up. You may very well be correct by suggesting the W7 may not be in an optimum enclosure for peak performance. I had a very detail oriented authorized JL dealer fab the enclosure exactly to JL's specs 1.75cuft. tuned to 32Hz. Maybe we can addres the box specs after this project. Don't get me wrong the W7 produces tremendous output, makes my radar detector hover and rear view mirror rattle all over the place to certain music. I feel the hype of the W7 has left my expectations not quite met. To me the W6 series is a FAR superior sub to the W7 with much more SQ with decent output potential. I just had to have the "the best sub on the market". Enough rambeling I ready for some specs.
D
demetman on 05/3/2007 22:37:25
A thought just came to mind. I won't be able to use my trunk slide cover because the box will need to exceed 14.4" high to house the 15" sub. No big deel just wanted to clarify.
D
Victor on 05/4/2007 00:57:04
You can use a wedge shaped enclosure here...
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp
there are 2 variations of this design on the page...
fill in the figures and u'll get the resultant internal box volume..
enter thickness of wood as 0.75" or 1" which ever one you plan to use..
with design one where its a simple triangular design.. here is what you can go with..
width = 30"
height = 14"
depth = 25"
thickness = 0.75"
to yeild a net internal volume of 2.42, here you shall get a surface of 28" x 30" to mount the driver...and a depth of 19" from the surface to the right angled corner... more than enough for a single 15" huh...
and with design 2 you can go with..
width = 30"
height 1 = 3" ( if you want a net volume of 3 cuft just make this 5" )
height 2 = 14"
depth = 25"
thickness = 0.75"
to net an internal volume of 2.7 cuft.
here you shall get a surface thats 27" x 30" again enuf for mounting a 15" sub...
i would personally suggest you go with the second option....
hope this helps..
Victor...
swez on 05/4/2007 07:06:33
Agree w/ Victor here too. If you have a 14" limit and a 15" sub, a modified wedge is the best option. This allows the front baffle panel to be tall enough to accomodate the sub and we make up the differences with H1/H2 and W. (H is fixed per your needs)
Consider this as your external dimensions:
width = 30" ........................width = 30"
height 1 = 3"....................... H1 = 3.0"
height 2 = 14"..................... H2 = 14.0"
depth = 25.75".....................D = 28.75"
thickness = 0.75".................T = 1.0" MDF
This will net 2.8 ft^3 and when we subtract sub displacement, you'll be pretty darn close to the target... 2.7ft^3.
I don't see the sub displacement specs on the D2 15" sub. It is 8" deep and this wedge should accomodate that well enough. Talk to the sub guys and ask what the displacement number is for the D2. If it is larger than 0.1 ft^3, adjusting the Depth is all that is needed.
Also, since this box is 30" Wide and >24" Deep, you may need to consider some internal bracing to limit panel resonances and flexing. That means a slightly larger box to compensate for any bracing used. If using 1.0" MDF, that should eliminate the need for bracing.
Comments?
Swez
demetman on 05/4/2007 10:19:57
Is it possible for you guys to lay out each cut piece so I can understand this a little clearer. Perhaps you could write it in crayon lol! This is all very new to me and carpentry is not in my repertoire. My buddy has all the tools and skill to cut perfect pieces (he even has a miterbox for algeled cuts)? I would like to use 1"MDF all around and 1.5" front baffle for extra strength when mounting the speaker. I
Correct me if I wrong but the bottom piece for the enclosure is the "base" where all sides will sit on. I would like to add internal bracing as well. I will let you know what the driver displacement is as soon as I find out. Thanks
D
swez on 05/4/2007 14:55:41
That a good idea... 1'' MDF case and 1.5" baffle and then some braces as well. This box will be larger/heavier with those aspects, but solid too.
As for a drawing of this box and panel cuts, I can probably do something like this in PowerPoint format. However, the angle section may be a bit more difficult to figure out and can be done last, after a dry fit of top, back & sides are fabricated. Here, I often use an angle measuring tool and transfer the angle to saw blade settings to match. Fortunately, once the angle is found, all angle cuts are the same.
Note: Am not a "Master Carpenter", but have done a few wedge designs that worked out pretty well.
How soon do you need to submit a drawing to your buddy for cutting? That will give me a time frame to complete the drawing and send you drafts and dimensions.
Swez
PS For cleaning up rough edges and slight shavings to fit, have found that a good belt sander is a big help. On flat and flush cut clean ups, a router will do a very nice job. The same is true for the sub circle. A router and Jasper jig.
swez on 05/4/2007 16:15:09
Oh, if you can get your hands on some 1" thick styrofoam panels, it might be a very good idea to make a full sized model of this box to insure a good fit in your car and sub placement for depth as well. Yes, it will take a little time to do this, but it will insure a no-goof outcome on the angles needed and sub depth needs. This will also give a good template for your wood cutting dimensions.
Swez
demetman on 05/5/2007 00:11:32
No specifics on timing for this one Swez. I'm just kind of anxious to have a nice enclosure to mount the new sub in when I recieve it late next week. Actually I would rather take the time to plan this well, get all materials needed and take my time to produce the best possible product for the install. My buddy is very flexable and will help me anytime next week with a days notice.
I failed to reach someone at SI for sub displacement factor so I guess we are on hold until then. I will also need to order cup terminal, carpeting, and any other materials needed from parts Express. I have already sourced these items. If you think a standard rectangular box would be more manageable and fit well I'm down with that. let me know and thanks for your help! Oh I took a look at the 12 Volt calculator and it all makes perfect sence now. I was looking at the wrong design first time around. That would be an easy enough way to reference this project. Talk to you later.
D
swez on 05/5/2007 08:54:30
Good, at the moment, we can safely use a sub displacement number of about 0.10 - 0.125ft^3.
I have a few basics already modeled in MS Word and Power Point. Right now, I just need to calculate some bracing displacements and now your sub. Will send what I have via e-mail for you to look at in a day or so. Will advise shortly.
Swez
PS We are targeting 2.7 ft^3 sealed here right? Am figuring a tolerance of +/- 5% initially and tighten that down as needed.
swez on 05/5/2007 10:52:13
Demetman,
OK, I sent you an e-mail with the initial details of this wedge box design to consider. Have a close look at the picture, overall bracing and baffle support panel information.
If you have any questions, just ask. A detailed cut list will follow later, once we confirm the actual sub displacement number to use. I anticipate that number to be:
> than 0.10 ft^3
< than 0.125 ft^3
Cheers,
Swez
demetman on 05/6/2007 01:01:31
Thanks for the draft Swez, it looks nice. My buddy is pumped to build this box especially after I told him we need to compare the 12W7 ported to the Mag sealed using a wide variety of music. We will be documenting all aspecs of each box over a wide range of frequencies and intencities. I will certainly take plenty of pictures and post detailed results when complete. This should be a fun project and a great learning experience. I hope to achieve excellant SQ and solid SPL from this new sub and sealed enclosure.
I think Wed will be the day we start the enclosure. Mon morning I will get you the sub displacement and we can finish the box specs. It looks like this box may get finished until the following week due to supplies from Parts Express not arriving by Wed. I'd like to get a supply list completed for Home Depot(screws, wood glue, spray adhesive etc). Thanks again and I'll talk to you later.
D
swez on 05/6/2007 10:27:01
Am working out your cut list and detail drawings for "H" braces noted in the 1st e-mail. I don't know if I am just slow here or this just takes a lot of time to map things out. Looks like the next set of info will be 2-3 pages of PPT's for you.
Have a good day at work my man,
Swez
gearhead on 05/7/2007 01:00:04
Radio Shack carries some pretty stout speaker cups. They're rectangular, and accept banana plugs, spade terminals, or up to 10ga. wire. As-is they have 4 screw mounting holes, but they're easily modified to use 8.
demetman on 05/7/2007 11:07:34
Hello Swez, I showed my buddy Bill the draft you prepared and we took some measurements of my trunk. I spent the morning doing some homework so hopefully some pictures will help. Bill would like to know if it is possible to manipulate the design to utalize more space behind the seat. I am planning to use a thinner trunk liner tray of 1/4" to gain a little space(maybe plexi glass or MDF carpeted). We have determined that the seat is a 60 degree angle from top to bottom. With no tray at all I have 16 3/8" straight up to trunk cover bar.http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0280.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0278.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0277.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0281.jpg
It would be nice to be able to make the back panel 14" H plus the 2" additional inches from top and bottom piece totaling 16 1/4" with 1/4" trunk tray. Let me know if I am confusing you or you need additional pictures.
Oh, the displacement of the sub is .15 cubes.
D
swez on 05/7/2007 13:18:30
OK, think I understand the parameters you are splaining here. Let's review and confirm:
Max height: 16-3/8" (+tray thickness)
Max Width: 39.0"
Max Depth: ~42.0"
Rear box angle: 60 degrees (Butt to seat backs)
Sub Disp: 0.150 ft^3
Hum, can you measure the woofer diameter from lip to lip? The sub cutout is 14.0" right? I would expect a lip to lip OD of just about 15.0", +/- 1/4". Please confirm that OK?
If these parameters are correct, (depending on the sub OD) may still need to angle the front baffle panel to accomodate the sub.
...../____\..... is one option I can see. It would be nice if we could do it with only 1 face angle. ....../_____
demetman on 05/7/2007 14:49:09
Yes Swez the specs you have are correct. I have not recieved the sub yet so I'm not sure of lip to lip measurements. I do see what you are saying for an angled front panel for the sub to mount in. It's only a guess but I would think an upward angle would supportamore favorable bass responce allowing the wave to reflect off the rear hatch and pass through between the roof and the top of the box../.....\ Thanks
D
demetman on 05/7/2007 16:36:22
Oops, I may have accidentally deleted your last reply without being able to view it Swez. From the topic heading it looks as if you posted but I don't see it here:( Let me know what you think our next coarse of action is. Thanks
D
swez on 05/7/2007 18:29:13
Nope D, I deleated your double is all.
Anyway, as I have looked at some basic calculations, the hinge pin between a fairly easy box making to a more complex one, rests on the actual OD of this woofer.
I looked at the site and see no specifics on this D2 woofer for that dimension. However, after looking at several pictures and such on their forum, this looks to be one solid sub.
We may have to use the /........\ design here. It does offer the benefit of sub aiming to the roof top and rear window and I see that as a plus. To make it somewhat symetrical, both angle panels will probably be a about 60 degrees. (perhaps a tad less on the baffle panel) We'll still shoot for about 3.0 cf internally and add internal braces as needed to bring it down to the targeted 2.7 ft^3. The trick is getting enough surface area on the speaker baffle panel to meet the height restrictions.
Swez
Swez
Victor on 05/8/2007 01:24:37
swez have mailed you something regarding this one..
swez on 05/8/2007 10:48:22
Victor,
Got your e-mail and liked your option. This is pretty much the plan we are working off. Sent you a return e-mail as well. Read and reply and then I will look at your suggestion.
Swez
PS Hope all is well with you, the family and your new business enterprises. Take care and God bless. Is there a good time slot to catch up w/ you on YIM?
demetman on 05/8/2007 21:36:50
Hey Swez! I recieved an email indicating that my sub shipped today and will arrive on Thurs 5/10. May 24 starts my summer season full time kick off and most of my free time will be consumed with work. Hopefully we can nail this enclosure design and I can finish the enclosure next week.
I have a couple of questions regarding accessories. I have plenty of Knukonceptz 8awg Kollossus power cable, can I wire my sub with that? If yes what where can I find 8awg female connectors to attach to the inside of the terminal cup? How much of this carpeting will I need to order. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-768&CFID=12897279&CFTOKEN=66050071 Is there a prefered brand of wood glue and are there better screws to use for the enclosure and mounting the sub? Talk to you later.
D
30Hertz on 05/8/2007 22:01:00
You can use 8guage wire to run from the amplifier to your subwoofer. I used 8guage a lot when I was running 2500watts to my XXX even though it was overkill =).
Get some bannana plugs or something of the like to plug into the terminal cups. Just make sure the terminal cups accept bannana plugs. Most of the time I just drill holes and run the wire straight through the enclosure and silicone it to minimize the amount of connections. Terminal cups are nice though =). Bannana Plugs can be purchased from Parts Express. (You might be able to find some female connectors fro the 8guage but I havent seen any. Check Knuconcepts or www.Darvex.com)
For wood glue, I like to use Liquid Nails or Gorrilla Glue. Both work great and hold like no other although the Gorrilla Glue can be a bit messy.
For Screws, most of the time I use drywall screws for the enclosure and T-Nuts to mount the sub to the enclosure. T-Nuts can be purchased from your local hardware store or from Parts Express.
I cant really comment on the Carpet since most of the time I paint. Carpet is sold in Yards so you shouldnt need more than two yards I'd think.
-30
jamesp on 05/9/2007 11:18:00
Dementman, a couple of things; I was able to get the yellow 10-12 awg female spade terminals on 2 different brands of 8 ga wire. Since I am new at this, not sure, but I assume that some wire brands are true to the guage size and others may not be??? Stinger 8 ga. went in the yellow connectors without spreading them, but you can tap a small tip screwdriver in the seam of the tube and spread them a bit if necessary.
Use a quality crimping tool..
If you use Gorilla Glue, use enough clamps to hold things nice and tight if it is going to take long to install the screws as this is an expanding urethane adhesive and can actually move pieces apart during the expansion and curing process. Franklin Titebond 2 is a good waterproof aliphatic wood glue(yellow colored) and Ross makes a really good product(dont know if you can find it in your area).Both are better than Elmers IMO but Elmers now makes a product like Gorilla Glue and acts like it is some newly invented product but the Monkey was around years before.
Seems like 8ga. specific terminals are non-existant around here, dont know for sure but I made do nicely with the yellow ones. Good luck with your project..
swez on 05/9/2007 11:44:02
Gorilla glue is great and very robust. It's a bit pricey, but if that's what you want... by all means. Elmer's Pro carpentry glues work very well too. Have not had a joint failure yet using same.
For screws, use #8 x 2" drywall screws. Look for the coarse thread ones as they hold better. Always use a pilot hole on butt joints and counter sink the heads as well. (Prevents splitting) The screws are just a mechanical bond until the glue cures. Wood glue bonds are very strong once they set up. As James said, Tee-nuts and bolts for the sub mounting are the way to go. A 1/4" x 20 x 2" thread should be plenty good. Tee-nuts are always used on Pro speaker fabs.
I have some time today to design a box per your request. Will shoot for a 3.0 ft^3 box (internal) and will use "H" braces and sub displacements to bring it down to 2.7 ft^3. Will shoot you some e-mails later by Thursday with drawings and build notes.
Swez
swez on 05/9/2007 22:05:31
Hum, ever feel like we have bitten off more than one can really chew?
I feel that way at the moment as I am designing this new sealed box for you Demetman...
OK, am looking at a balanced trapezoid design here. Basically, we have 2 right triangles as discussed before. /........\ The angles will be 60 degrees on both ends.
A. Fit nice against your seat backs
B. The front baffle is large enough to accomodate your sub
The trick is the math computations are complex and need to be accurate enough so the box fits A & B, but also has the right size internal space for your sub. I don't have a problem going a tad large and make up the difference with braces and such, but not going well below the target value we established.
I still have a few numbers to crunch and should have this info over to you in a day or so with a build list too. Frankly, I have never tried to design a sealed box that has so many variables to consider. Have a good case of MEGO now. (My Eyes Glaze Over)
A good nights' sleep and a fresh perspective should do the trick.
Swez
PS I shoulda paid more attention to Geometry/Trig and such when I was in school huh? D'oh It bored me to tears. Can you say "Isosceles trapezoid"? What is the area of an "IT" ? Darned if I know, but am going to find out anyway. GRIN
jamesp on 05/9/2007 22:33:41
The area of an isosceles trapezoid (or any trapezoid) is equal to the average of the bases times the height. In the diagram in the link below, b1 = segment AD, b2 = segment BC and h is the length of a line segment between AD and BC and perpendicular to them. The area is given as follows:
A=(b1+ b2) / 2
Here is a link to the diagram....Im sure you know this, but sometimes a pic helps.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Isoscelestriangle2.jpg
I have to seperate the box into its 2 triangular components and calculate the volume of each, then calculate the volume of the remaining rectangle in the center section. This way you can easily add or subtract volume by changing the width of the center rectangle and the 2 triangular components will retain thier volume...as long as the length doesnt change. I had to do a similar calc on my certification exam yesterday except it was a tank and the sides AND ends sloped so I had 4 triangles and that problem was only worth .769 of 1 point GRIN
swez on 05/10/2007 10:55:42
Thank Jimmy...
I looked it up too and came up with the same equation. The area is not so much of a problem here. It's the innermost panels of the triangles, (90 degree uprights) that have to be cut away to some degree and used as inner braces. (Yet also pass bass waves through the entire chamber)
How much to cut away, then equates to remaining area inside the entire box is the key point here.
Getting this wrong is not a matter of a few points lost in this one. (I wish it was just that)
1. The guy building it has to understand it
2. The guy who's paying for the build is depending on accuracy
3. I feel very responsible to provide the optimal design info here or it will mess up the other 2 guys in the picture
Can you help me out by checking my math computation on this design? Math was not my strongest suit way back when. Knowing those limitations, it's best to get a 2nd opinion from someone who does have a strong background in math. Care to check my work and add comments as needed to insure success? (Very much appreciated too)
Swez
PS Have a basic drawing and ran some numbers already. Just need to put it all together in a Power Point format and can pass it to you for review. You mind looking at it and make some comments?
jamesp on 05/10/2007 11:49:33
Swez, I will be happy to try and help. I think that if you make the base board full width, it will simplify things as then you will only have to angle cut the upper and lower length of the 2 long sides of the box and the top can be routered to match the bevel if needed.
The volume of the right triangles created by the sloping sides is easy to determine. (base x height)/2 x length. If the sub mounts on the top horizontal plane, the top piece has to be say 16-17" wide minimum, does that leave the ability to keep a 60 degree rt. triangle front and back and stay within the maximum space allowed?
swez on 05/10/2007 13:02:52
Thanks bro... yes, the hypotneus is 17.2" H and 30.0" W. With angles of 90, 60 and 35.5 degrees on each triangle, the sub will mount fine.
As I see it so far, the triangles are as followed: (Mirror images L & R)
Max H: 16.0" (14" nom.)
Base: 8.0"
Hypot: 17.2" L x 30" W x 1" Thick
Thickness: 1.0" MDF
Baffle brace: 16" x 24" x 1/2" (0.11 ft^3)
Sub disp: 0.150 ft^3 (Yea, a big sub huh?)
I calculated the area of each triangle at ~0.73 cf each. This is w/o the baffle brace board figured in and will also need to make a pass through holes for both triangles as well This dimension is variable to meet the overall internal airspace needs of the wedges.
Does that square with your calcs? (60 degrees and a Hypotneus of ~17" (+/- 0.250")
Once we confirm these, the center chamber can be calculated for an optimal 2.7 ft^3 + Sub Disp, Braces and inner supports. (Am thinking an net 3.0 ft^3 should about do it)
What say you Jimmy?
Swez
Wedge spes:
jamesp on 05/10/2007 14:23:32
Swez, if the base is 8" and the hieght of the imaginary vertical line created from the base to the top of the angled side(the vertical line that makes the rt. angle) = 16" and the length= 30"...we have (8x16)/2=64in² and 64in² x 30" = 1920in³ so 1920in³/ 1728in³ = 1.11ft³ per triangular section.
Im thinking of a box that is wider at the bottom than the top and has equal angles on the front and back side so looking from the end it would be a pyramid with the top half cut off...is this correct??? I am assuming internal dimensions since we are calculating volume.
swez on 05/10/2007 15:15:44
Yes, we are tracking on most of this so far. It is similar to a pyramid, but the top will be lopped off and a wider base too. One thing I am pondering, the boards at the base and top are 1.0" caps. That brings the net volume down in each right angle... right? (16.0 - 2.0" = 14" net)So, the actual usable volume of each right triangle is well under 1.11 ft^3. (See that detail? Am I missing something here?)
The base is 1.0" MDF, so we have to account for that thickness too. The same is true of the capping board.
There are more details I will share with you later, but let's see if we agree on the items above before pressing on to the next group of details.
Swez
PS I used this calculator for the right triangles in this box. The numbers used were:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#wed2
Height max = 16"
Width = 32.0"
Depth = 8.0"
Board thickness: 1.0"
Net internal volume: 0.73 ft^3
Do we match/agree so far?
jamesp on 05/10/2007 16:30:40
Swez, if I use a base dimention of 7" and a hieght of 14" and a length of 30" , I come up with .85 cu/ft
All I am using is the internal measurements and of course the hieght measurement imaginary line that forms the right angle with the base. base =7", hieght= 14" and length=30 so
BxH/2= x L or 7x14/2=49. 49x30 = 1470 cu/in 1470/1728 = .850cu/ft.
if the base is 7" and the hieght is 14" the hypotenuse = 15.65"
what do you think
jamesp on 05/10/2007 16:53:15
Swez, I went to the link you provided above and used the rt. triangle calculator, plugged in a "0" for the thickness and it came out just like my calc above.... .850 cu/ft interior volume using 7, 14 and 30 inches.
Also, if the box has a 60 degree angle front and back it would form a perfect equilateral triangle if it continued up till both ends touched(as viewed from one end,,,,,,a perfect pyramid. 3, 60 degree angles = 180 degrees.
swez on 05/10/2007 19:59:11
Hum, I did use the calculator again at 12 volt and plugging in these numbers: (Note: When using this calculator, we plug in the outer dimensions and wood thickness. It gives us the interal airspace at the end of the calulation) Keep that in mind... Here's the numbers I used
H = 16"
W = 32"
D = 8"
Thick = 1"
The inner airspace is 0.729 ft^3. (Rounded to 0.73)
I then subtracted the vertical upright segment of this triangle and came up with the following:
32" x 16" x 1" = 512/1728 = 0.296 ft^3 (0.3 is a good number)
Now, I added 0.3 + 0.73 = 1.026 ft^3 (vertical leg nulled out) So, that as it is, each triangle is 1.02 ft^3. (That's bigger than the 0.85 mentioned in your calculations) Hum, It's close... but we are still off by 0.34 ft^3 in these sections alone. Am I missing something here?
I also used your method and got the same number... 0.85 ft^3. However, since we are removing the vertical upright panel for now, the number has to be larger than 0.85 right? (Or am I not smokin' the right stuff here?)
OK, let's say we now have 1.02 ft^3 per triangle as noted. (Vertical legs are not counted) Am shooting at a net internal of 3.0 Ft^3. Now, we look at the center rectangle form for the rest of the needed dimensions.
1.02 x 2 = 2.04 ft^3 This is the number we'll go with for the angled Front & Back sections of the box. Yes, 90, 60 & 35.5 degrees and a hypotneus of 17.?" I can fly on that. (If we agree, let's call it 1.2 Ft^3 per end... 2.0 ft^3 is fine)
That would leave 1.0 ft^3 remaining to play with to get the targeted
3.0 ft^3.
But there's more.. we have to consider the sub displacement, (0.150) a backer board for the sub side triangle, (16" x 24" x 1/2"... and a 14" hole in the center and some internal bracing members on base and sides as well. Let's see what that all means:
Sub Disp: 0.150 ft^3
Baffle board support: 16" x 24" x 1/2" = 192/1728 = 0.11 ft^3
14" cutout is: 0.045 ft^3
0.150 + 0.11 = 0.26 - 0.045 = 0.22 ft^3 of displacements. That's fixed and the margin of error is so minimal, it does not matter.
Let's see where this goes now:
Net internal target: 3.0 ft^3
Triangles: 1.0 ft^3 x 2 = 2.0 ft^3
Displacements: 0.22 ft^3
3.0-2.0 = 1.0 + 0.22 = [0.1.22 ft^3] for the center chamber rectangle. Back to the box calculator.
H = 16.0"
W = 32.0"
D = 5.5"
T = 1.0"
Net internal volume here: 0.85 fT^3. Close enough for jazz. Let's recap for a moment:
1.0 + 1.0 + = 2.0 ft^3 ends
0.85 ft^3 center chamber
1 + 1+ 0.85 = [2.85 ft^3] net internal volume.
Hum, I like this. This allows for 0.15 cubes of internal bracing. If we cut 14" diameter holes on both sides of the center chamber and add a few more braces.
2.85 + 0.1 = [2.96 ft^3]. We can use 0.26 ft^3 for bracing to reach the final target of 2.7 ft^3. That will work my boy. CLAP
Care to look over my madness and comment JamesP?
Swez HAPPY
jamesp on 05/11/2007 07:59:15
Swez, does this box actually have any vertical panels inside of it?
I think I see why we differ a bit on internal rt. triangle volumes.
Quote "I then subtracted the vertical upright segment of this triangle and came up with the following:"
When you subtract this "imaginary line, you have assigned it a value = to 1" thick. Assign a value of "0" since for now we are concerned only with Volume or the interior dimentions.
As long as the number used for the "BASE" is accurate and reflects the length along the base from inside the angled outside piece(hypotenuse bottom) to a point on the base precisly under the top of the angled (hpotenuse top) piece that creates a right angle with the base. The imaginary line that is used for Height has no width and therefore should not be assigned one. The box calculator. probably "splits the difference"here and shortens the Base when you try to subtract the volume of the 1" piece out of the formula.
I obviously have a hard time putting this into words and have poor graphics skills with pc's but...
I need to see a simple end view diagram of the box. Im under the impression that it is wide open inside(less some bracing, that comes later) and has no vertical members other than the end pieces. An equaliteral triangle with the top half cut off. Could you email a end view outline? /___\ this with a top?
I hope I have not confused you here. All I know is the simple math involved to get an accurate internal volume
swez on 05/11/2007 08:12:20
Yeah, a diagram was e-mailed to your e-mail addy last night to get a better picture of what I see as the build model. Just a 1 page drawing with some numbers and general specs. (Simple Power Point drawing)
Actually, we are making progress as your inputs have been most helpful Jimmy. We seem to be on the same page for the most part and now it just a matter of crunching the rest of the numbers to get the proper bracing and interior fill.
I get what you are saying here so far though. Basically, we have 2 right triangles and a rectangle between them. The net interior volume target is 2.7 ft^3, after all the displacements and braces are accounted for.
Once you see that e-mail, shoot me your thoughts OK?
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 09:34:35
OK Ill check my email. Im in and out of my office today distributing payroll and stuff.
I fell asleep in my recliner last night and woke up at 1 am, just in time to go to bedGRIN. My wifey just let me snooze.
swez on 05/11/2007 09:44:53
OK, look when you can and then post a comment or send return e-mail.
You have a good woman and that is usually the results of a good man. (Unless you were a naughty boy and had to sleep on the couch)
Don't forget Mother's Day this Sunday!
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 09:54:16
Alright Dave, we are now on the same page. I thought the box was empty. I see that it actually has vertical boards with 14" cutouts forming the right angle with the base.
Is the vertical board centered on the 8" dimension or does it center on it?
I also ASSumed that the sub was mounted in the top, facing up..we are on to something now. This would be a perfect equilateral triangle (the top would be a 60º angle too) if it was not truncated.
swez on 05/11/2007 12:59:22
Yes, the box is truncated. Yes, it would normally be an equallaterial triangle other wise. (60/60/60 degrees)
Funny how language, (English) gets in the way... but a picture/diagram says so much more.
The 8" vertical face is actually 7" when we subtract board thickness. (1.0") Unless I have err'd on the small side, the rest can be made up by braces and incerts for a perfect 2.7 ft^3. (internal)
No, the sub is mounted on the rear/right side of the hypotneus. It is facing to the rear od the vehicle. (See diagram I sent you) We need at least 16" x 16" for mounting the sub correctly. It will be mounted with an upward angle, but not parallel to floor or roof.
If I missed something, point it out!
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 13:21:02
Swez, is there some reason for the 2 vertical components ( with the 14" cut outs in the drawing). They will only be 5" or so apart and made out of 1" mdf. Structuraly it seems to be overkill. If it is for sonic purposes then ok. If not wouldnt a single, center mounted piece of 1" cut to fit the inside dimentions, then remove a lg portion(rectangle) out of the center and leave maybe 2-2.5 inches of material all the way around be sufficient to brace the entire box. That 1" material is pretty robust and it seems like an inner frame centered under the flat top piece would hold up an elephant. ???
swez on 05/11/2007 16:08:49
This is true and a good thought. Will need to adjust the box parameters a bit though. Taking out one panel, will change the parameters enough where it will work fine for bracing, but the overall width of the base needs to be narrowed to make up for the internal brace changes.
Thanks for pointing that out... 2 support panels are indeed overkill with a 1.0" thick board setup. Back to the drawing board for a few more tweaks.
Swez
demetman on 05/14/2007 13:42:07
Thanks for the draft Swez. What a busy weekend for me at work! I was able to show it to the builder and he seems to think we can get this done. He was wondering if the front and rear 60 degree angled baffles will have angled ends to meet the top and bottom boards and is that the 35.5 degrees stated on the draft? Also the front baffle has a measurement of 17.2" H x 32.0"W X 1.5"T what idoes the decimal .2 of an inch mean? The internal brace cutout is a little unclear and will the sub mount center on the front baffle?
I had to special order the 1' MDF no lumber yard or home improvement center stocks this wood. The wood is do in tomorrow as well as my Parts Express order. I hope to start the box on Wed and should take a couple of days. I appreciate yout efforts with this project. Thanks to jamesp as well for your sharp math skills. Talk to you later.
PS I finally caught up with the UPS guy today and recieved my sub. It looks nice and robust! Can't wait to put this thing to the test.
D
Victor on 05/14/2007 16:36:00
http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm
17.2 inches converts to 43.688cm or 1.4333 ft or 436.88 mm.... hehe..
just look on the scale , an inch is devided in 16 equal parts...
!.:.:.:.!.:.:.:.!
!.:.:.:.! this is half an inch ie. 0.5"
!.:.: this is half of it means 0.25"
!.: this is 0.125"
!.:. this hence becomes 0.1875" thats the closet u can get to 0.2" on a scale....SAD.....
this is a reason why i avoid calculating for very very very precise cu.ft measurements... a 0.05 error in cu.ft calcs done by box calculators can be forgiven.. and can even handled by using polyfill and stuff like that...
always have to keep in mind the construction phase ....specially when its not a straight forward cubic box...
wedge encls. dont allow a larger maring of error when the wooden joinery is concerned... air leaks and box integrity have to be watched...
you can probably cut a piece a bit longer and then , while assembling the box, sand the side down a little thread by thread and place the joints and see when it places well.. sand one more light layer to roughen the surface, place sufficient quantity of glue .. hold em tight, screw..
Victor...
swez on 05/14/2007 20:36:47
The 0.2" is just a fuzz under 1/4". As Victor mentioned and I do the same, go a tad longer and use a belt sander to shave down any overlaps.
Tech Tip: The angles were all calculated and each "imaginary triangle" has a 90, 60 and a fuzz under 30 degree angle in them. The 35.5 degree angle turned out to be a computation error. (Input error) Please take note of that in the drawing I sent you. Since these are true right triangles, the sum of all angles will be 180 degrees.
Also, be mindful of how he caps the top on this box. I used a net height of 16.0" from base to top cap. Depeding on the way it is constructed, the hypotenuse will either be 16.125" or 17.88". Both should work for your sub, but I'd go the longer route on the hypotenuse and shave as needed.
The center support board is basically a 3" internal bracing board. The rest is cut away to allow air flow and back pressure for the sub.
The front baffle board was designed as a sandwich of 1.0" board and a 1/2" boards, glued and screwed together for a net 1-1/2" total thickness. I did not know the outer lip dimensions of this sub, (15.? inches) so there is no specification on exactly where to mount it. So I left that detail up the carpenter to fit it as best is possible. Since there is a very steep angle on that face, he may have to go slightly above center, to accomodate the depth of this sub. (8.0" is the depth spec on this sub)
I tried to take the approach of using a dry fit measuring system here. All panels would be dry-fitted together, adjust panel parameters as needed by a router, tablesaw and belt sander. Once everything fits tight, then it can be glued and screwed for final assembly. Basically, the drawing shows the side facing dimensions and angles required. The rest of the panels are then measured and cut off those parameters to fit.
The bottom, center support and top panels are all internal to the side panel shown. The end caps are overlapping fits to make it easier to adjust for best fitment.
Hope that clarifies things for you and your carpenter. Victor covered the rest. An air tight seal is the end goal here. Plan on using silicone or Liquid Nails to seal all internal joints.
Swez
Victor on 05/15/2007 03:14:46
i havent seen the drawings dave.. but was just thinking about the joinery detail... what kind of a joint would be used for the entire box..i mean are u joining 2 planes at 90' or are they 45' wedge joints..??
have u used more than 1 joint detail in the entire box..??
Victor...
swez on 05/15/2007 10:08:00
The drawing is pretty basic initially Victor. The base angles, (Front and Back) are 60 degrees and the cap angle is 30 degrees. This is a basically a pair of right triangles with a rectangle in the center. I can send you the draft if you would like to look at it.
One thing I have learned on this one, having a second pair of sharp eyes to check the work and confirm accuracy is very important. (Especially when working in previously uncharted waters)
Swez
jamesp on 05/15/2007 10:56:58
D-man, you might need a pair of air shocks on his Magnum after installing this box? 1" MDF weighs between 88 and 133 lbs per sheet.GRIN
I hope this sub delivers all that you want it to. It is a good looking piece of equipment and should sound good in your wagon. It is a Magnum wagon, right?
Victor on 05/15/2007 16:13:41
Sure dave , mail me the pics...
am travelling for the next 2 days for marketting my products....
shall be able to reply on 18th of this month... hope that does not delay the building process...
Victor...
if such is the case.. lemme know, will look around for some cyber cafe and reply inbetween 2 dealership calls...
swez on 05/15/2007 18:40:39
Yes, I sent it already to your e-mail. Have a look as you may see a few things I may have missed and we want to catch it before Dem's carpenter get's at it.
Appreciate your comments and time pal!
Dave
demetman on 05/15/2007 23:07:12
Yea jamesp this is going to be one heavy rig when complete. Snapped a couple quick shots of the Mag for you guys. This sub weighs in at 36# which is a few pounds shy of my 12W7.
I was planning to pick up my wood tomorrow and kick this project off but maybe I will wait until Mon of next week for Victor's responce. I would much rather wait and see if this design is ready to build or minor adjustments need to be made to produce the best possible enclosure for this sub. After all Victor is an expert in this catagory.
I appreciate all your hard work and dedication to help me with this box swez. A donation to the d swezene fly fishing club of america goes in the mail tommorrow. Let me know when you get any updates. Thanks
D
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?
action=view¤t=DSCN0292.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?
action=view¤t=DSCN0294.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0293.jpg
swez on 05/16/2007 06:27:38
Dem,
Yes, please do hold off as this box is a lot more complex and if we missed something now, it can be remedied before the build. I consulted with my brother a bit on this one. He too said this was a very difficult design to build . He should know... he's built hundreds of designs and often had to make adjustments on the fly.
Barter is a great thing huh? I know where your heart is at and you seem to know where mine is too... Thank you for the consideration.
Swez
demetman on 05/21/2007 00:40:17
Victor,
Have you had a chance to review the draft that swez sent to you via email last week? I only have one day Tues May 22 to utalize my friends tools and skills to complete this project. I would be most grateful to have any changes to the original draft printed out tomorrow (Mon) so I can start the box first thing Tues morning. Thanks.
D
Victor on 05/21/2007 01:08:15
guys i did get the draft... i am planning to redraw the full thing and send it to u by today evening..
Victor..
by the way , i didnt like the scale and measurings... if the base of the triangle is 8" and the height is 16" , so it has to be twice higher than its base.. which it is not...
also the top of the box is 6".. how is it bigger than the base of the triangle thats 8"....
if the height is 16" and the base 8" then the hypotenus becomes 17.88" and is difficult to cut and assemble
and those are definitely not 60' 30' angles.. those are more like 45'
this is just a primary finding.. will send in a detailed thingy soon
Area of a trapezoid is 1/2 (top + base ) x Height = 1/2 (28) x h = 14 x 16 = 224 sq inches...
with a width of 32" the volume becomes 7168 cu in...
= 4.14 cu ft..........( EXT volume )
swez on 05/21/2007 07:04:25
Victor,
Run your numbers as we are looking for a 2.7 ft^3 internal volume after all the displacements are accounted for. Dem also needs a surface area of >16.0" to mount his sub. The sub baffle panel is to be 1.5" thickness too.
I did a scale drawing on graph paper and to the best of my knowledge, the numbers came out to the correct volume with angles noted. The critical angles are the front and back faces of this box. (~60 degrees)
Yes, please do run the numbers and see what your calcs come out to. It would be most helpful to have a set of trained eyes on this one so we get the correct results. If I overlooked some key elements, I'd rather eat a little humble pie then have Dem's box come out wrong. (These math skills are a bit rusty and I admit it)
Thanks Victor, appreciate your help!
Swez
Victor on 05/21/2007 15:45:58
Guys sorry for the late reply...
heres something i did.. not too good drawings as was in a real hurry to pack up and leave for the next trip...
hope this helps..
how to construct..
first take a 1" thick board of 24" x 32"
this becomes the base for the box..
next draw 2 nos... trapezoids of the following measurements out of 1" thick board ( namely trapezoid a & c)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidac.jpg
22" base x 13.6" height x 5" top
these become your sides
and 3rd trapezoid namely "b" from 1.5" board cut out shall be used to make the bracing..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidb.jpg
fix the base board and fix 2 of these trapezoids at each end.. ( do not glue, just predrill and screw )
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoid1fixed.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidacfixed.jpg
then, take the 3rd trapezoid thats made out of 1.5" thick board and cut out spaces for air to flow thru the bracing...
and place it at the perfect center of the base board that becomes 14.25" to 15.75" ( fix, do not glue, pre-drill screw)
so now you have a basic skeleton ready, the base and the 3 trapezoids...
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidabcfixed.jpg
you shall notice such a thing afer this much is done...
now whats left are the side covers and the top cover..
cut 2 pieces 18.5" x 32" of the 1" board, these become the 2 slanting sides...
if you want a thicker piece to mount the sub, i would suggest just a simple square cutout from another 1" board just in the mounting area of the sub..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/topsidepanels.jpg
predrill screw these pieces to the side ( do not glue )...
there shall be some odd corners sticking out from the top and bottom of these piece... you will have to sand them gradually.. to match them with the base and also make proper fit for the 6" x 32" top cut out from 1" thick board to finish the box....
once every thing is in its place, and all is set well.. dis assemble the box, and sand each surface to make it rough , apply glue, screw and fix then permanently..
Victor.....
External dimensions of this box shall be, b1 = 24". b2 = 6" . h = 15.6" . L = 32" and the mounting surface available shall be 18",
total internal volume becomes 3.4 cu ft.... ( substracting the bracing and the woofer displacement you should be pretty close to the 3 cu ft mark..
if u wanna go further low, then either you can decrease the length of this enclosure from 32" to 30" or add more bracings.. each of such bracing made from 1.5" board should be around 0.08 cuft..and if made from a 1 " board then would be around 0.05 cuft...
i would suggest you dont need to buy 1.5" board just for a piece of bracing... a 1" board is sufficiently strong and you can always use another layer of the 1" board if you want a thicker and stronger bracing or mounting surface... the 1.5" board is costlier as compared to a 1" board.. why waste money when the 1"er would be enough...
swez on 05/21/2007 17:07:23
Good drawings for the time allowed Victor... Interesting how our numbers match, but the angle are a tad off on my part. Looks like your angles are closer to 45 degrees? Also, see the height is has been adjusted downward to a lower height. That's cool if the sub has enough space on that baffle board.
The center brace could be a bit less cut out and nets less internal airspace too. A little extra boarding, (Filler) can be used to bring the internal box size to the desired dimensions after all the displacements are calculated.
Swez
PS Nice work on the layout and fabrication info. I had a rough time with this design and have learned that I have limits and need to ask for more help at times. Thanks for pitching in.
PSS Should we talk about a rebate Dem?
Victor on 05/21/2007 17:22:10
the numbers will surely be very close as I didnt go all the way to design a new box, just took whatever u mailed me as a base drawing and modified it to scale, just a few minor changes here and there.....
a lot of people find it hard to understand 2d technical level drawings such as plans, sections and elevations..i just tried to draw a 3 d image as its easier to understand an image that replicates to what we actually see..
the angles are 60' and 30' to be precise...
trigonometry...
on a right angled triangle ABC where angle B = 90'
if AB = 9" , AC ( hypotenus ) = 18" and angle CAB = 60' then the resultant height of the adjacent side ie. BC = 15.6"
Victor..
Ps. making the bracing cut outs a bit smaller can help occupy more volume to close in to the desired internal volume..and also make the bracing much more stronger...
either we add more bracings or decrease the length of the box by an inch or 2 as required.. rest all seems to be fine if the guy who is making this box understands the integration...
Pss . At CK and specially for a guide and friend like you dave.. "thanks" and "sorry" are 2 words that are out of my dictionary.. COFFEE
just noticed something.. this seems to be the longest post i have seen in this current year.. this box has to work out.. i appreciate the kind of patience shown by demet on this project.. lot of people give in and buy a pre-fab only to regret it later..
swez on 05/21/2007 18:18:16
Indeed... a less patient man would give up and buy a prefab for sure.
As for "Thanks and Sorry"... they are considered very appropriate words in our culture. Unfortunately, too many youngers do not show such appreciation or regrets. I don't know what it is, but I was raised to say Please, Thank you, Yes Sir, No Sir and if I made a mistake, appologize or my Dad would rectify that in short order. (Then I would really be sorry for the broken laws of his Kingdom) What can I say... I was just raised that way. Hehe
Cheers Mate,
Swez
Victor on 05/22/2007 11:13:57
SMILE I agree they are words of a Humble man...
SWEZ : Thank you Victor...
Victor : Ah... ure always welcome, anything for you Dave..
hehehehehe...
I believe in simplicity... no thanks no welcome,, no matter even if we've never seen each others face.... we're friends.... that says it all.. COFFEE..
Pss.. Dem please document this project at all levels with pictures and short notes... its good habit to document projects so that we can learn from the process and keep on improving...
swez on 05/22/2007 21:37:04
Uh Huh... you get it! So do I...
Swez
I am expecting a tremendous increase in SQ over the 12W7 and most likely I should see an increase in SPL in a sealed enclosure. I should recieve the sub by late next week or the beginning of the following. I'm 60% on having a custom box fabed for my vehicle but I think I could build a sealed box with the help of my carpenter buddy and his tools and save a few bucks.
30 Hertz good reccomendation on the Mag I found a whole new class of drivers during my research. Sound Splinter, Mach5 Audio, Ascendant, Tumult and Rainbow just to name a few. There is a how new world out there testing, abusing and reviewing these somewhat underground solid built performance subwoofers. The best of it all is the very competative price point offered and the level of service offered by these manufacturers.
Here is a link http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html
Replies (73)
MrBrownstone on 05/2/2007 19:49:39
I don't want to crap on your parade, but the SQ of your subwoofer is dependent upon:
Input signal
Box design
quality of speaker
in the case of the W7...I don't see a whole lot of improvement in the industry with respect to the quality of the speaker. The only real improvement you might see, particularly in a sealed enclosure, is the box placement OR, the box wasn't properly matched with the woofer.
With monster woofers, it's all about what you are trying to accomplish. You can get 100% SPL, 100% SQ, or 75% of one OR the other. You'll never get both.
The penalty for SPL is sound quality, and vice versa.
jamesp on 05/2/2007 21:45:55
D-man, hope you get what you are looking for with that sub.It sure looks good if that means anything.
swez on 05/2/2007 22:19:11
This may work out nice in the right box design. The extra cone area will help move more air and power rating is a good match for your 1000/1 too.
Keep us posted OK?
Dave
demetman on 05/2/2007 22:26:15
Point well taken Mr. Brownstone. Sometimes you need to take risks to reap rewards. I have been on here inquiring, researching and probing for opinions for weeks now and I have decided to try something new. At least know I will be able to tell you guys what the results are and if more SPL and SQ can be achieved using this driver.
It's only a subwoofer not a heart transplant. If sealed yeilds less than expected SPL I can always try a ported enclosure. I'm a little upset with the sugar coated info JL has claimed to get me to spend big bucks(adding 2nd 12W7 will yeild 3-6dB same power). I have been watching homeade videos showing peak excursion and output of this Mag and litterally this thing wangs real nice! soundsolutions.com has it all. I think I may have been fooling myself all thistime using a ported enclosure. My musical taste is all over the road and SQ has always been the key factor to quality music reproduction. The 12W7 does a poor job with kick drum bass(crossover set at 90Hz) and upper register of bass guitar, but really shines in the low low end and inaudable notes. Bass mekanik never sounded so good until the W7. I'll be sure to post a review after the Mag D2 is installed and broken in.
D
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 01:57:38
I think you'll be very happy with the performance of the Mag D2 Keep us posted on the progress and take some pics if possible =)
Glad I could help open your eyes to some of the other markets out there for high quality subs in a reasonable price bracket!
Take Care
-30
jamesp on 05/3/2007 09:01:47
Dementman, can the 12" Magl be had for $400 or less?
ttocs on 05/3/2007 09:11:34
if you know a carpenter with a table saw I would hit him up. A box for a carpenter with the proper tools is like asking somebody for a penny, it is nothing to them....
demetman on 05/3/2007 11:15:05
Jamesp sub shipped $475 from http://www.innovativeride.com/. I may hit you guys up for box design specs if I may. If I could save $250 a very generous donation to CK will be in line. Would you guys be able to help me out? A guy I work with does carpentry part time with all the tools needed.
I promise to post pictures of present install and Mag install.
D
swez on 05/3/2007 14:36:09
Yes, wecan help ya there too. Once you know the box specs for this sub, we can help you determine the design and fit issues and dimensions of the panels as needed. This one sealed right: (15")
http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html
Sealed: 2.3 - 3.0 ft^3
Swez
Victor on 05/3/2007 15:23:47
sealed box building shouldnt be an issue i guess.. simple and solid construction.
if u plan to go ported .. just for reference you can use something like this..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/Ported153.jpg
MrBrownstone on 05/3/2007 16:56:42
just bear in mind in this industry, 90% is installation, 10% is the product.
A Ferrari 350 vs a Chev Camaro SS wee 100K different in price, but reliability & performance were EQUAL!!!!!
Style, Ferrari all the way. However, with subwoofers, the style is actually inside the box, and who looks there anyway?
If you are unhappy with the performance of the W7, it's likely YOUR installation...unless the product is damaged. That woofer is friggin seriously overbuilt. I hope you exhausted all the installation tricks prior to going with a new woofer.
2 woofers in a similarly installed sealed enclosure will perform similarly. Unless you improperly accomodated your W7, it's a remarkable performer.
Good Luck
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 20:29:33
The 12W7 is a massive woofer that has always performed to its name. However there are woofers out there that offer the same performance at half the price.
Install is 90% of the outcome, product is the other 10
Personally I prefer to use the products not well known.
Either way, Solid product and you will be happy with it. If you need help with a design hit me up.
demetman on 05/3/2007 20:51:47
My buddy gave me the thumbs up on assisting me with the sealed enclosure fabrication. As per my conversations with Nick the owner of Stereo Integrity a sealed enclosure of 2.7cuft. should give me an excellant mix of SQ and SPL to compliment the acoustic property of my Dodge Magnum.
As for available trunk area I need to stay under 14.4". As for width I have 38.5" and length( top of back of seat to hatch) 32". This should yeild plenty of room for a very solid box. Any accessories(terminal carpet etc) should be considered first so I can order them from PE and have them ready for next week. Here is a link once again http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html.
Mr B. I fully understand proper installation makes the success of quality equipment. The performance of my W7 is not in question, I am simply the type of person who needs to experiment and switch things up at my own expence. shshshshsh wife knows nothing about this little project. I have been interested in car audio for over 15yrs having listened to many high powered quality systems over the years. I never took the time to learn how 12V audio worked nor have I been in a position to purchase high end equipment until later years. I had a "pro" audio shop butcher a very expensive install about a year ago leaving me with failed equip and many problems to fix on my own. I came here for help and Swez as well as others fixed me on up. You may very well be correct by suggesting the W7 may not be in an optimum enclosure for peak performance. I had a very detail oriented authorized JL dealer fab the enclosure exactly to JL's specs 1.75cuft. tuned to 32Hz. Maybe we can addres the box specs after this project. Don't get me wrong the W7 produces tremendous output, makes my radar detector hover and rear view mirror rattle all over the place to certain music. I feel the hype of the W7 has left my expectations not quite met. To me the W6 series is a FAR superior sub to the W7 with much more SQ with decent output potential. I just had to have the "the best sub on the market". Enough rambeling I ready for some specs.
D
demetman on 05/3/2007 22:37:25
A thought just came to mind. I won't be able to use my trunk slide cover because the box will need to exceed 14.4" high to house the 15" sub. No big deel just wanted to clarify.
D
Victor on 05/4/2007 00:57:04
You can use a wedge shaped enclosure here...
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp
there are 2 variations of this design on the page...
fill in the figures and u'll get the resultant internal box volume..
enter thickness of wood as 0.75" or 1" which ever one you plan to use..
with design one where its a simple triangular design.. here is what you can go with..
width = 30"
height = 14"
depth = 25"
thickness = 0.75"
to yeild a net internal volume of 2.42, here you shall get a surface of 28" x 30" to mount the driver...and a depth of 19" from the surface to the right angled corner... more than enough for a single 15" huh...
and with design 2 you can go with..
width = 30"
height 1 = 3" ( if you want a net volume of 3 cuft just make this 5" )
height 2 = 14"
depth = 25"
thickness = 0.75"
to net an internal volume of 2.7 cuft.
here you shall get a surface thats 27" x 30" again enuf for mounting a 15" sub...
i would personally suggest you go with the second option....
hope this helps..
Victor...
swez on 05/4/2007 07:06:33
Agree w/ Victor here too. If you have a 14" limit and a 15" sub, a modified wedge is the best option. This allows the front baffle panel to be tall enough to accomodate the sub and we make up the differences with H1/H2 and W. (H is fixed per your needs)
Consider this as your external dimensions:
width = 30" ........................width = 30"
height 1 = 3"....................... H1 = 3.0"
height 2 = 14"..................... H2 = 14.0"
depth = 25.75".....................D = 28.75"
thickness = 0.75".................T = 1.0" MDF
This will net 2.8 ft^3 and when we subtract sub displacement, you'll be pretty darn close to the target... 2.7ft^3.
I don't see the sub displacement specs on the D2 15" sub. It is 8" deep and this wedge should accomodate that well enough. Talk to the sub guys and ask what the displacement number is for the D2. If it is larger than 0.1 ft^3, adjusting the Depth is all that is needed.
Also, since this box is 30" Wide and >24" Deep, you may need to consider some internal bracing to limit panel resonances and flexing. That means a slightly larger box to compensate for any bracing used. If using 1.0" MDF, that should eliminate the need for bracing.
Comments?
Swez
demetman on 05/4/2007 10:19:57
Is it possible for you guys to lay out each cut piece so I can understand this a little clearer. Perhaps you could write it in crayon lol! This is all very new to me and carpentry is not in my repertoire. My buddy has all the tools and skill to cut perfect pieces (he even has a miterbox for algeled cuts)? I would like to use 1"MDF all around and 1.5" front baffle for extra strength when mounting the speaker. I
Correct me if I wrong but the bottom piece for the enclosure is the "base" where all sides will sit on. I would like to add internal bracing as well. I will let you know what the driver displacement is as soon as I find out. Thanks
D
swez on 05/4/2007 14:55:41
That a good idea... 1'' MDF case and 1.5" baffle and then some braces as well. This box will be larger/heavier with those aspects, but solid too.
As for a drawing of this box and panel cuts, I can probably do something like this in PowerPoint format. However, the angle section may be a bit more difficult to figure out and can be done last, after a dry fit of top, back & sides are fabricated. Here, I often use an angle measuring tool and transfer the angle to saw blade settings to match. Fortunately, once the angle is found, all angle cuts are the same.
Note: Am not a "Master Carpenter", but have done a few wedge designs that worked out pretty well.
How soon do you need to submit a drawing to your buddy for cutting? That will give me a time frame to complete the drawing and send you drafts and dimensions.
Swez
PS For cleaning up rough edges and slight shavings to fit, have found that a good belt sander is a big help. On flat and flush cut clean ups, a router will do a very nice job. The same is true for the sub circle. A router and Jasper jig.
swez on 05/4/2007 16:15:09
Oh, if you can get your hands on some 1" thick styrofoam panels, it might be a very good idea to make a full sized model of this box to insure a good fit in your car and sub placement for depth as well. Yes, it will take a little time to do this, but it will insure a no-goof outcome on the angles needed and sub depth needs. This will also give a good template for your wood cutting dimensions.
Swez
demetman on 05/5/2007 00:11:32
No specifics on timing for this one Swez. I'm just kind of anxious to have a nice enclosure to mount the new sub in when I recieve it late next week. Actually I would rather take the time to plan this well, get all materials needed and take my time to produce the best possible product for the install. My buddy is very flexable and will help me anytime next week with a days notice.
I failed to reach someone at SI for sub displacement factor so I guess we are on hold until then. I will also need to order cup terminal, carpeting, and any other materials needed from parts Express. I have already sourced these items. If you think a standard rectangular box would be more manageable and fit well I'm down with that. let me know and thanks for your help! Oh I took a look at the 12 Volt calculator and it all makes perfect sence now. I was looking at the wrong design first time around. That would be an easy enough way to reference this project. Talk to you later.
D
swez on 05/5/2007 08:54:30
Good, at the moment, we can safely use a sub displacement number of about 0.10 - 0.125ft^3.
I have a few basics already modeled in MS Word and Power Point. Right now, I just need to calculate some bracing displacements and now your sub. Will send what I have via e-mail for you to look at in a day or so. Will advise shortly.
Swez
PS We are targeting 2.7 ft^3 sealed here right? Am figuring a tolerance of +/- 5% initially and tighten that down as needed.
swez on 05/5/2007 10:52:13
Demetman,
OK, I sent you an e-mail with the initial details of this wedge box design to consider. Have a close look at the picture, overall bracing and baffle support panel information.
If you have any questions, just ask. A detailed cut list will follow later, once we confirm the actual sub displacement number to use. I anticipate that number to be:
> than 0.10 ft^3
< than 0.125 ft^3
Cheers,
Swez
demetman on 05/6/2007 01:01:31
Thanks for the draft Swez, it looks nice. My buddy is pumped to build this box especially after I told him we need to compare the 12W7 ported to the Mag sealed using a wide variety of music. We will be documenting all aspecs of each box over a wide range of frequencies and intencities. I will certainly take plenty of pictures and post detailed results when complete. This should be a fun project and a great learning experience. I hope to achieve excellant SQ and solid SPL from this new sub and sealed enclosure.
I think Wed will be the day we start the enclosure. Mon morning I will get you the sub displacement and we can finish the box specs. It looks like this box may get finished until the following week due to supplies from Parts Express not arriving by Wed. I'd like to get a supply list completed for Home Depot(screws, wood glue, spray adhesive etc). Thanks again and I'll talk to you later.
D
swez on 05/6/2007 10:27:01
Am working out your cut list and detail drawings for "H" braces noted in the 1st e-mail. I don't know if I am just slow here or this just takes a lot of time to map things out. Looks like the next set of info will be 2-3 pages of PPT's for you.
Have a good day at work my man,
Swez
gearhead on 05/7/2007 01:00:04
Radio Shack carries some pretty stout speaker cups. They're rectangular, and accept banana plugs, spade terminals, or up to 10ga. wire. As-is they have 4 screw mounting holes, but they're easily modified to use 8.
demetman on 05/7/2007 11:07:34
Hello Swez, I showed my buddy Bill the draft you prepared and we took some measurements of my trunk. I spent the morning doing some homework so hopefully some pictures will help. Bill would like to know if it is possible to manipulate the design to utalize more space behind the seat. I am planning to use a thinner trunk liner tray of 1/4" to gain a little space(maybe plexi glass or MDF carpeted). We have determined that the seat is a 60 degree angle from top to bottom. With no tray at all I have 16 3/8" straight up to trunk cover bar.http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0280.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0278.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0277.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0281.jpg
It would be nice to be able to make the back panel 14" H plus the 2" additional inches from top and bottom piece totaling 16 1/4" with 1/4" trunk tray. Let me know if I am confusing you or you need additional pictures.
Oh, the displacement of the sub is .15 cubes.
D
swez on 05/7/2007 13:18:30
OK, think I understand the parameters you are splaining here. Let's review and confirm:
Max height: 16-3/8" (+tray thickness)
Max Width: 39.0"
Max Depth: ~42.0"
Rear box angle: 60 degrees (Butt to seat backs)
Sub Disp: 0.150 ft^3
Hum, can you measure the woofer diameter from lip to lip? The sub cutout is 14.0" right? I would expect a lip to lip OD of just about 15.0", +/- 1/4". Please confirm that OK?
If these parameters are correct, (depending on the sub OD) may still need to angle the front baffle panel to accomodate the sub.
...../____\..... is one option I can see. It would be nice if we could do it with only 1 face angle. ....../_____
demetman on 05/7/2007 14:49:09
Yes Swez the specs you have are correct. I have not recieved the sub yet so I'm not sure of lip to lip measurements. I do see what you are saying for an angled front panel for the sub to mount in. It's only a guess but I would think an upward angle would supportamore favorable bass responce allowing the wave to reflect off the rear hatch and pass through between the roof and the top of the box../.....\ Thanks
D
demetman on 05/7/2007 16:36:22
Oops, I may have accidentally deleted your last reply without being able to view it Swez. From the topic heading it looks as if you posted but I don't see it here:( Let me know what you think our next coarse of action is. Thanks
D
swez on 05/7/2007 18:29:13
Nope D, I deleated your double is all.
Anyway, as I have looked at some basic calculations, the hinge pin between a fairly easy box making to a more complex one, rests on the actual OD of this woofer.
I looked at the site and see no specifics on this D2 woofer for that dimension. However, after looking at several pictures and such on their forum, this looks to be one solid sub.
We may have to use the /........\ design here. It does offer the benefit of sub aiming to the roof top and rear window and I see that as a plus. To make it somewhat symetrical, both angle panels will probably be a about 60 degrees. (perhaps a tad less on the baffle panel) We'll still shoot for about 3.0 cf internally and add internal braces as needed to bring it down to the targeted 2.7 ft^3. The trick is getting enough surface area on the speaker baffle panel to meet the height restrictions.
Swez
Swez
Victor on 05/8/2007 01:24:37
swez have mailed you something regarding this one..
swez on 05/8/2007 10:48:22
Victor,
Got your e-mail and liked your option. This is pretty much the plan we are working off. Sent you a return e-mail as well. Read and reply and then I will look at your suggestion.
Swez
PS Hope all is well with you, the family and your new business enterprises. Take care and God bless. Is there a good time slot to catch up w/ you on YIM?
demetman on 05/8/2007 21:36:50
Hey Swez! I recieved an email indicating that my sub shipped today and will arrive on Thurs 5/10. May 24 starts my summer season full time kick off and most of my free time will be consumed with work. Hopefully we can nail this enclosure design and I can finish the enclosure next week.
I have a couple of questions regarding accessories. I have plenty of Knukonceptz 8awg Kollossus power cable, can I wire my sub with that? If yes what where can I find 8awg female connectors to attach to the inside of the terminal cup? How much of this carpeting will I need to order. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-768&CFID=12897279&CFTOKEN=66050071 Is there a prefered brand of wood glue and are there better screws to use for the enclosure and mounting the sub? Talk to you later.
D
30Hertz on 05/8/2007 22:01:00
You can use 8guage wire to run from the amplifier to your subwoofer. I used 8guage a lot when I was running 2500watts to my XXX even though it was overkill =).
Get some bannana plugs or something of the like to plug into the terminal cups. Just make sure the terminal cups accept bannana plugs. Most of the time I just drill holes and run the wire straight through the enclosure and silicone it to minimize the amount of connections. Terminal cups are nice though =). Bannana Plugs can be purchased from Parts Express. (You might be able to find some female connectors fro the 8guage but I havent seen any. Check Knuconcepts or www.Darvex.com)
For wood glue, I like to use Liquid Nails or Gorrilla Glue. Both work great and hold like no other although the Gorrilla Glue can be a bit messy.
For Screws, most of the time I use drywall screws for the enclosure and T-Nuts to mount the sub to the enclosure. T-Nuts can be purchased from your local hardware store or from Parts Express.
I cant really comment on the Carpet since most of the time I paint. Carpet is sold in Yards so you shouldnt need more than two yards I'd think.
-30
jamesp on 05/9/2007 11:18:00
Dementman, a couple of things; I was able to get the yellow 10-12 awg female spade terminals on 2 different brands of 8 ga wire. Since I am new at this, not sure, but I assume that some wire brands are true to the guage size and others may not be??? Stinger 8 ga. went in the yellow connectors without spreading them, but you can tap a small tip screwdriver in the seam of the tube and spread them a bit if necessary.
Use a quality crimping tool..
If you use Gorilla Glue, use enough clamps to hold things nice and tight if it is going to take long to install the screws as this is an expanding urethane adhesive and can actually move pieces apart during the expansion and curing process. Franklin Titebond 2 is a good waterproof aliphatic wood glue(yellow colored) and Ross makes a really good product(dont know if you can find it in your area).Both are better than Elmers IMO but Elmers now makes a product like Gorilla Glue and acts like it is some newly invented product but the Monkey was around years before.
Seems like 8ga. specific terminals are non-existant around here, dont know for sure but I made do nicely with the yellow ones. Good luck with your project..
swez on 05/9/2007 11:44:02
Gorilla glue is great and very robust. It's a bit pricey, but if that's what you want... by all means. Elmer's Pro carpentry glues work very well too. Have not had a joint failure yet using same.
For screws, use #8 x 2" drywall screws. Look for the coarse thread ones as they hold better. Always use a pilot hole on butt joints and counter sink the heads as well. (Prevents splitting) The screws are just a mechanical bond until the glue cures. Wood glue bonds are very strong once they set up. As James said, Tee-nuts and bolts for the sub mounting are the way to go. A 1/4" x 20 x 2" thread should be plenty good. Tee-nuts are always used on Pro speaker fabs.
I have some time today to design a box per your request. Will shoot for a 3.0 ft^3 box (internal) and will use "H" braces and sub displacements to bring it down to 2.7 ft^3. Will shoot you some e-mails later by Thursday with drawings and build notes.
Swez
swez on 05/9/2007 22:05:31
Hum, ever feel like we have bitten off more than one can really chew?
I feel that way at the moment as I am designing this new sealed box for you Demetman...
OK, am looking at a balanced trapezoid design here. Basically, we have 2 right triangles as discussed before. /........\ The angles will be 60 degrees on both ends.
A. Fit nice against your seat backs
B. The front baffle is large enough to accomodate your sub
The trick is the math computations are complex and need to be accurate enough so the box fits A & B, but also has the right size internal space for your sub. I don't have a problem going a tad large and make up the difference with braces and such, but not going well below the target value we established.
I still have a few numbers to crunch and should have this info over to you in a day or so with a build list too. Frankly, I have never tried to design a sealed box that has so many variables to consider. Have a good case of MEGO now. (My Eyes Glaze Over)
A good nights' sleep and a fresh perspective should do the trick.
Swez
PS I shoulda paid more attention to Geometry/Trig and such when I was in school huh? D'oh It bored me to tears. Can you say "Isosceles trapezoid"? What is the area of an "IT" ? Darned if I know, but am going to find out anyway. GRIN
jamesp on 05/9/2007 22:33:41
The area of an isosceles trapezoid (or any trapezoid) is equal to the average of the bases times the height. In the diagram in the link below, b1 = segment AD, b2 = segment BC and h is the length of a line segment between AD and BC and perpendicular to them. The area is given as follows:
A=(b1+ b2) / 2
Here is a link to the diagram....Im sure you know this, but sometimes a pic helps.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Isoscelestriangle2.jpg
I have to seperate the box into its 2 triangular components and calculate the volume of each, then calculate the volume of the remaining rectangle in the center section. This way you can easily add or subtract volume by changing the width of the center rectangle and the 2 triangular components will retain thier volume...as long as the length doesnt change. I had to do a similar calc on my certification exam yesterday except it was a tank and the sides AND ends sloped so I had 4 triangles and that problem was only worth .769 of 1 point GRIN
swez on 05/10/2007 10:55:42
Thank Jimmy...
I looked it up too and came up with the same equation. The area is not so much of a problem here. It's the innermost panels of the triangles, (90 degree uprights) that have to be cut away to some degree and used as inner braces. (Yet also pass bass waves through the entire chamber)
How much to cut away, then equates to remaining area inside the entire box is the key point here.
Getting this wrong is not a matter of a few points lost in this one. (I wish it was just that)
1. The guy building it has to understand it
2. The guy who's paying for the build is depending on accuracy
3. I feel very responsible to provide the optimal design info here or it will mess up the other 2 guys in the picture
Can you help me out by checking my math computation on this design? Math was not my strongest suit way back when. Knowing those limitations, it's best to get a 2nd opinion from someone who does have a strong background in math. Care to check my work and add comments as needed to insure success? (Very much appreciated too)
Swez
PS Have a basic drawing and ran some numbers already. Just need to put it all together in a Power Point format and can pass it to you for review. You mind looking at it and make some comments?
jamesp on 05/10/2007 11:49:33
Swez, I will be happy to try and help. I think that if you make the base board full width, it will simplify things as then you will only have to angle cut the upper and lower length of the 2 long sides of the box and the top can be routered to match the bevel if needed.
The volume of the right triangles created by the sloping sides is easy to determine. (base x height)/2 x length. If the sub mounts on the top horizontal plane, the top piece has to be say 16-17" wide minimum, does that leave the ability to keep a 60 degree rt. triangle front and back and stay within the maximum space allowed?
swez on 05/10/2007 13:02:52
Thanks bro... yes, the hypotneus is 17.2" H and 30.0" W. With angles of 90, 60 and 35.5 degrees on each triangle, the sub will mount fine.
As I see it so far, the triangles are as followed: (Mirror images L & R)
Max H: 16.0" (14" nom.)
Base: 8.0"
Hypot: 17.2" L x 30" W x 1" Thick
Thickness: 1.0" MDF
Baffle brace: 16" x 24" x 1/2" (0.11 ft^3)
Sub disp: 0.150 ft^3 (Yea, a big sub huh?)
I calculated the area of each triangle at ~0.73 cf each. This is w/o the baffle brace board figured in and will also need to make a pass through holes for both triangles as well This dimension is variable to meet the overall internal airspace needs of the wedges.
Does that square with your calcs? (60 degrees and a Hypotneus of ~17" (+/- 0.250")
Once we confirm these, the center chamber can be calculated for an optimal 2.7 ft^3 + Sub Disp, Braces and inner supports. (Am thinking an net 3.0 ft^3 should about do it)
What say you Jimmy?
Swez
Wedge spes:
jamesp on 05/10/2007 14:23:32
Swez, if the base is 8" and the hieght of the imaginary vertical line created from the base to the top of the angled side(the vertical line that makes the rt. angle) = 16" and the length= 30"...we have (8x16)/2=64in² and 64in² x 30" = 1920in³ so 1920in³/ 1728in³ = 1.11ft³ per triangular section.
Im thinking of a box that is wider at the bottom than the top and has equal angles on the front and back side so looking from the end it would be a pyramid with the top half cut off...is this correct??? I am assuming internal dimensions since we are calculating volume.
swez on 05/10/2007 15:15:44
Yes, we are tracking on most of this so far. It is similar to a pyramid, but the top will be lopped off and a wider base too. One thing I am pondering, the boards at the base and top are 1.0" caps. That brings the net volume down in each right angle... right? (16.0 - 2.0" = 14" net)So, the actual usable volume of each right triangle is well under 1.11 ft^3. (See that detail? Am I missing something here?)
The base is 1.0" MDF, so we have to account for that thickness too. The same is true of the capping board.
There are more details I will share with you later, but let's see if we agree on the items above before pressing on to the next group of details.
Swez
PS I used this calculator for the right triangles in this box. The numbers used were:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#wed2
Height max = 16"
Width = 32.0"
Depth = 8.0"
Board thickness: 1.0"
Net internal volume: 0.73 ft^3
Do we match/agree so far?
jamesp on 05/10/2007 16:30:40
Swez, if I use a base dimention of 7" and a hieght of 14" and a length of 30" , I come up with .85 cu/ft
All I am using is the internal measurements and of course the hieght measurement imaginary line that forms the right angle with the base. base =7", hieght= 14" and length=30 so
BxH/2= x L or 7x14/2=49. 49x30 = 1470 cu/in 1470/1728 = .850cu/ft.
if the base is 7" and the hieght is 14" the hypotenuse = 15.65"
what do you think
jamesp on 05/10/2007 16:53:15
Swez, I went to the link you provided above and used the rt. triangle calculator, plugged in a "0" for the thickness and it came out just like my calc above.... .850 cu/ft interior volume using 7, 14 and 30 inches.
Also, if the box has a 60 degree angle front and back it would form a perfect equilateral triangle if it continued up till both ends touched(as viewed from one end,,,,,,a perfect pyramid. 3, 60 degree angles = 180 degrees.
swez on 05/10/2007 19:59:11
Hum, I did use the calculator again at 12 volt and plugging in these numbers: (Note: When using this calculator, we plug in the outer dimensions and wood thickness. It gives us the interal airspace at the end of the calulation) Keep that in mind... Here's the numbers I used
H = 16"
W = 32"
D = 8"
Thick = 1"
The inner airspace is 0.729 ft^3. (Rounded to 0.73)
I then subtracted the vertical upright segment of this triangle and came up with the following:
32" x 16" x 1" = 512/1728 = 0.296 ft^3 (0.3 is a good number)
Now, I added 0.3 + 0.73 = 1.026 ft^3 (vertical leg nulled out) So, that as it is, each triangle is 1.02 ft^3. (That's bigger than the 0.85 mentioned in your calculations) Hum, It's close... but we are still off by 0.34 ft^3 in these sections alone. Am I missing something here?
I also used your method and got the same number... 0.85 ft^3. However, since we are removing the vertical upright panel for now, the number has to be larger than 0.85 right? (Or am I not smokin' the right stuff here?)
OK, let's say we now have 1.02 ft^3 per triangle as noted. (Vertical legs are not counted) Am shooting at a net internal of 3.0 Ft^3. Now, we look at the center rectangle form for the rest of the needed dimensions.
1.02 x 2 = 2.04 ft^3 This is the number we'll go with for the angled Front & Back sections of the box. Yes, 90, 60 & 35.5 degrees and a hypotneus of 17.?" I can fly on that. (If we agree, let's call it 1.2 Ft^3 per end... 2.0 ft^3 is fine)
That would leave 1.0 ft^3 remaining to play with to get the targeted
3.0 ft^3.
But there's more.. we have to consider the sub displacement, (0.150) a backer board for the sub side triangle, (16" x 24" x 1/2"... and a 14" hole in the center and some internal bracing members on base and sides as well. Let's see what that all means:
Sub Disp: 0.150 ft^3
Baffle board support: 16" x 24" x 1/2" = 192/1728 = 0.11 ft^3
14" cutout is: 0.045 ft^3
0.150 + 0.11 = 0.26 - 0.045 = 0.22 ft^3 of displacements. That's fixed and the margin of error is so minimal, it does not matter.
Let's see where this goes now:
Net internal target: 3.0 ft^3
Triangles: 1.0 ft^3 x 2 = 2.0 ft^3
Displacements: 0.22 ft^3
3.0-2.0 = 1.0 + 0.22 = [0.1.22 ft^3] for the center chamber rectangle. Back to the box calculator.
H = 16.0"
W = 32.0"
D = 5.5"
T = 1.0"
Net internal volume here: 0.85 fT^3. Close enough for jazz. Let's recap for a moment:
1.0 + 1.0 + = 2.0 ft^3 ends
0.85 ft^3 center chamber
1 + 1+ 0.85 = [2.85 ft^3] net internal volume.
Hum, I like this. This allows for 0.15 cubes of internal bracing. If we cut 14" diameter holes on both sides of the center chamber and add a few more braces.
2.85 + 0.1 = [2.96 ft^3]. We can use 0.26 ft^3 for bracing to reach the final target of 2.7 ft^3. That will work my boy. CLAP
Care to look over my madness and comment JamesP?
Swez HAPPY
jamesp on 05/11/2007 07:59:15
Swez, does this box actually have any vertical panels inside of it?
I think I see why we differ a bit on internal rt. triangle volumes.
Quote "I then subtracted the vertical upright segment of this triangle and came up with the following:"
When you subtract this "imaginary line, you have assigned it a value = to 1" thick. Assign a value of "0" since for now we are concerned only with Volume or the interior dimentions.
As long as the number used for the "BASE" is accurate and reflects the length along the base from inside the angled outside piece(hypotenuse bottom) to a point on the base precisly under the top of the angled (hpotenuse top) piece that creates a right angle with the base. The imaginary line that is used for Height has no width and therefore should not be assigned one. The box calculator. probably "splits the difference"here and shortens the Base when you try to subtract the volume of the 1" piece out of the formula.
I obviously have a hard time putting this into words and have poor graphics skills with pc's but...
I need to see a simple end view diagram of the box. Im under the impression that it is wide open inside(less some bracing, that comes later) and has no vertical members other than the end pieces. An equaliteral triangle with the top half cut off. Could you email a end view outline? /___\ this with a top?
I hope I have not confused you here. All I know is the simple math involved to get an accurate internal volume
swez on 05/11/2007 08:12:20
Yeah, a diagram was e-mailed to your e-mail addy last night to get a better picture of what I see as the build model. Just a 1 page drawing with some numbers and general specs. (Simple Power Point drawing)
Actually, we are making progress as your inputs have been most helpful Jimmy. We seem to be on the same page for the most part and now it just a matter of crunching the rest of the numbers to get the proper bracing and interior fill.
I get what you are saying here so far though. Basically, we have 2 right triangles and a rectangle between them. The net interior volume target is 2.7 ft^3, after all the displacements and braces are accounted for.
Once you see that e-mail, shoot me your thoughts OK?
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 09:34:35
OK Ill check my email. Im in and out of my office today distributing payroll and stuff.
I fell asleep in my recliner last night and woke up at 1 am, just in time to go to bedGRIN. My wifey just let me snooze.
swez on 05/11/2007 09:44:53
OK, look when you can and then post a comment or send return e-mail.
You have a good woman and that is usually the results of a good man. (Unless you were a naughty boy and had to sleep on the couch)
Don't forget Mother's Day this Sunday!
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 09:54:16
Alright Dave, we are now on the same page. I thought the box was empty. I see that it actually has vertical boards with 14" cutouts forming the right angle with the base.
Is the vertical board centered on the 8" dimension or does it center on it?
I also ASSumed that the sub was mounted in the top, facing up..we are on to something now. This would be a perfect equilateral triangle (the top would be a 60º angle too) if it was not truncated.
swez on 05/11/2007 12:59:22
Yes, the box is truncated. Yes, it would normally be an equallaterial triangle other wise. (60/60/60 degrees)
Funny how language, (English) gets in the way... but a picture/diagram says so much more.
The 8" vertical face is actually 7" when we subtract board thickness. (1.0") Unless I have err'd on the small side, the rest can be made up by braces and incerts for a perfect 2.7 ft^3. (internal)
No, the sub is mounted on the rear/right side of the hypotneus. It is facing to the rear od the vehicle. (See diagram I sent you) We need at least 16" x 16" for mounting the sub correctly. It will be mounted with an upward angle, but not parallel to floor or roof.
If I missed something, point it out!
Swez
jamesp on 05/11/2007 13:21:02
Swez, is there some reason for the 2 vertical components ( with the 14" cut outs in the drawing). They will only be 5" or so apart and made out of 1" mdf. Structuraly it seems to be overkill. If it is for sonic purposes then ok. If not wouldnt a single, center mounted piece of 1" cut to fit the inside dimentions, then remove a lg portion(rectangle) out of the center and leave maybe 2-2.5 inches of material all the way around be sufficient to brace the entire box. That 1" material is pretty robust and it seems like an inner frame centered under the flat top piece would hold up an elephant. ???
swez on 05/11/2007 16:08:49
This is true and a good thought. Will need to adjust the box parameters a bit though. Taking out one panel, will change the parameters enough where it will work fine for bracing, but the overall width of the base needs to be narrowed to make up for the internal brace changes.
Thanks for pointing that out... 2 support panels are indeed overkill with a 1.0" thick board setup. Back to the drawing board for a few more tweaks.
Swez
demetman on 05/14/2007 13:42:07
Thanks for the draft Swez. What a busy weekend for me at work! I was able to show it to the builder and he seems to think we can get this done. He was wondering if the front and rear 60 degree angled baffles will have angled ends to meet the top and bottom boards and is that the 35.5 degrees stated on the draft? Also the front baffle has a measurement of 17.2" H x 32.0"W X 1.5"T what idoes the decimal .2 of an inch mean? The internal brace cutout is a little unclear and will the sub mount center on the front baffle?
I had to special order the 1' MDF no lumber yard or home improvement center stocks this wood. The wood is do in tomorrow as well as my Parts Express order. I hope to start the box on Wed and should take a couple of days. I appreciate yout efforts with this project. Thanks to jamesp as well for your sharp math skills. Talk to you later.
PS I finally caught up with the UPS guy today and recieved my sub. It looks nice and robust! Can't wait to put this thing to the test.
D
Victor on 05/14/2007 16:36:00
http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm
17.2 inches converts to 43.688cm or 1.4333 ft or 436.88 mm.... hehe..
just look on the scale , an inch is devided in 16 equal parts...
!.:.:.:.!.:.:.:.!
!.:.:.:.! this is half an inch ie. 0.5"
!.:.: this is half of it means 0.25"
!.: this is 0.125"
!.:. this hence becomes 0.1875" thats the closet u can get to 0.2" on a scale....SAD.....
this is a reason why i avoid calculating for very very very precise cu.ft measurements... a 0.05 error in cu.ft calcs done by box calculators can be forgiven.. and can even handled by using polyfill and stuff like that...
always have to keep in mind the construction phase ....specially when its not a straight forward cubic box...
wedge encls. dont allow a larger maring of error when the wooden joinery is concerned... air leaks and box integrity have to be watched...
you can probably cut a piece a bit longer and then , while assembling the box, sand the side down a little thread by thread and place the joints and see when it places well.. sand one more light layer to roughen the surface, place sufficient quantity of glue .. hold em tight, screw..
Victor...
swez on 05/14/2007 20:36:47
The 0.2" is just a fuzz under 1/4". As Victor mentioned and I do the same, go a tad longer and use a belt sander to shave down any overlaps.
Tech Tip: The angles were all calculated and each "imaginary triangle" has a 90, 60 and a fuzz under 30 degree angle in them. The 35.5 degree angle turned out to be a computation error. (Input error) Please take note of that in the drawing I sent you. Since these are true right triangles, the sum of all angles will be 180 degrees.
Also, be mindful of how he caps the top on this box. I used a net height of 16.0" from base to top cap. Depeding on the way it is constructed, the hypotenuse will either be 16.125" or 17.88". Both should work for your sub, but I'd go the longer route on the hypotenuse and shave as needed.
The center support board is basically a 3" internal bracing board. The rest is cut away to allow air flow and back pressure for the sub.
The front baffle board was designed as a sandwich of 1.0" board and a 1/2" boards, glued and screwed together for a net 1-1/2" total thickness. I did not know the outer lip dimensions of this sub, (15.? inches) so there is no specification on exactly where to mount it. So I left that detail up the carpenter to fit it as best is possible. Since there is a very steep angle on that face, he may have to go slightly above center, to accomodate the depth of this sub. (8.0" is the depth spec on this sub)
I tried to take the approach of using a dry fit measuring system here. All panels would be dry-fitted together, adjust panel parameters as needed by a router, tablesaw and belt sander. Once everything fits tight, then it can be glued and screwed for final assembly. Basically, the drawing shows the side facing dimensions and angles required. The rest of the panels are then measured and cut off those parameters to fit.
The bottom, center support and top panels are all internal to the side panel shown. The end caps are overlapping fits to make it easier to adjust for best fitment.
Hope that clarifies things for you and your carpenter. Victor covered the rest. An air tight seal is the end goal here. Plan on using silicone or Liquid Nails to seal all internal joints.
Swez
Victor on 05/15/2007 03:14:46
i havent seen the drawings dave.. but was just thinking about the joinery detail... what kind of a joint would be used for the entire box..i mean are u joining 2 planes at 90' or are they 45' wedge joints..??
have u used more than 1 joint detail in the entire box..??
Victor...
swez on 05/15/2007 10:08:00
The drawing is pretty basic initially Victor. The base angles, (Front and Back) are 60 degrees and the cap angle is 30 degrees. This is a basically a pair of right triangles with a rectangle in the center. I can send you the draft if you would like to look at it.
One thing I have learned on this one, having a second pair of sharp eyes to check the work and confirm accuracy is very important. (Especially when working in previously uncharted waters)
Swez
jamesp on 05/15/2007 10:56:58
D-man, you might need a pair of air shocks on his Magnum after installing this box? 1" MDF weighs between 88 and 133 lbs per sheet.GRIN
I hope this sub delivers all that you want it to. It is a good looking piece of equipment and should sound good in your wagon. It is a Magnum wagon, right?
Victor on 05/15/2007 16:13:41
Sure dave , mail me the pics...
am travelling for the next 2 days for marketting my products....
shall be able to reply on 18th of this month... hope that does not delay the building process...
Victor...
if such is the case.. lemme know, will look around for some cyber cafe and reply inbetween 2 dealership calls...
swez on 05/15/2007 18:40:39
Yes, I sent it already to your e-mail. Have a look as you may see a few things I may have missed and we want to catch it before Dem's carpenter get's at it.
Appreciate your comments and time pal!
Dave
demetman on 05/15/2007 23:07:12
Yea jamesp this is going to be one heavy rig when complete. Snapped a couple quick shots of the Mag for you guys. This sub weighs in at 36# which is a few pounds shy of my 12W7.
I was planning to pick up my wood tomorrow and kick this project off but maybe I will wait until Mon of next week for Victor's responce. I would much rather wait and see if this design is ready to build or minor adjustments need to be made to produce the best possible enclosure for this sub. After all Victor is an expert in this catagory.
I appreciate all your hard work and dedication to help me with this box swez. A donation to the d swezene fly fishing club of america goes in the mail tommorrow. Let me know when you get any updates. Thanks
D
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?
action=view¤t=DSCN0292.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?
action=view¤t=DSCN0294.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x150/demetman/?action=view¤t=DSCN0293.jpg
swez on 05/16/2007 06:27:38
Dem,
Yes, please do hold off as this box is a lot more complex and if we missed something now, it can be remedied before the build. I consulted with my brother a bit on this one. He too said this was a very difficult design to build . He should know... he's built hundreds of designs and often had to make adjustments on the fly.
Barter is a great thing huh? I know where your heart is at and you seem to know where mine is too... Thank you for the consideration.
Swez
demetman on 05/21/2007 00:40:17
Victor,
Have you had a chance to review the draft that swez sent to you via email last week? I only have one day Tues May 22 to utalize my friends tools and skills to complete this project. I would be most grateful to have any changes to the original draft printed out tomorrow (Mon) so I can start the box first thing Tues morning. Thanks.
D
Victor on 05/21/2007 01:08:15
guys i did get the draft... i am planning to redraw the full thing and send it to u by today evening..
Victor..
by the way , i didnt like the scale and measurings... if the base of the triangle is 8" and the height is 16" , so it has to be twice higher than its base.. which it is not...
also the top of the box is 6".. how is it bigger than the base of the triangle thats 8"....
if the height is 16" and the base 8" then the hypotenus becomes 17.88" and is difficult to cut and assemble
and those are definitely not 60' 30' angles.. those are more like 45'
this is just a primary finding.. will send in a detailed thingy soon
Area of a trapezoid is 1/2 (top + base ) x Height = 1/2 (28) x h = 14 x 16 = 224 sq inches...
with a width of 32" the volume becomes 7168 cu in...
= 4.14 cu ft..........( EXT volume )
swez on 05/21/2007 07:04:25
Victor,
Run your numbers as we are looking for a 2.7 ft^3 internal volume after all the displacements are accounted for. Dem also needs a surface area of >16.0" to mount his sub. The sub baffle panel is to be 1.5" thickness too.
I did a scale drawing on graph paper and to the best of my knowledge, the numbers came out to the correct volume with angles noted. The critical angles are the front and back faces of this box. (~60 degrees)
Yes, please do run the numbers and see what your calcs come out to. It would be most helpful to have a set of trained eyes on this one so we get the correct results. If I overlooked some key elements, I'd rather eat a little humble pie then have Dem's box come out wrong. (These math skills are a bit rusty and I admit it)
Thanks Victor, appreciate your help!
Swez
Victor on 05/21/2007 15:45:58
Guys sorry for the late reply...
heres something i did.. not too good drawings as was in a real hurry to pack up and leave for the next trip...
hope this helps..
how to construct..
first take a 1" thick board of 24" x 32"
this becomes the base for the box..
next draw 2 nos... trapezoids of the following measurements out of 1" thick board ( namely trapezoid a & c)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidac.jpg
22" base x 13.6" height x 5" top
these become your sides
and 3rd trapezoid namely "b" from 1.5" board cut out shall be used to make the bracing..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidb.jpg
fix the base board and fix 2 of these trapezoids at each end.. ( do not glue, just predrill and screw )
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoid1fixed.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidacfixed.jpg
then, take the 3rd trapezoid thats made out of 1.5" thick board and cut out spaces for air to flow thru the bracing...
and place it at the perfect center of the base board that becomes 14.25" to 15.75" ( fix, do not glue, pre-drill screw)
so now you have a basic skeleton ready, the base and the 3 trapezoids...
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/trapezoidabcfixed.jpg
you shall notice such a thing afer this much is done...
now whats left are the side covers and the top cover..
cut 2 pieces 18.5" x 32" of the 1" board, these become the 2 slanting sides...
if you want a thicker piece to mount the sub, i would suggest just a simple square cutout from another 1" board just in the mounting area of the sub..
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w214/victorginger/topsidepanels.jpg
predrill screw these pieces to the side ( do not glue )...
there shall be some odd corners sticking out from the top and bottom of these piece... you will have to sand them gradually.. to match them with the base and also make proper fit for the 6" x 32" top cut out from 1" thick board to finish the box....
once every thing is in its place, and all is set well.. dis assemble the box, and sand each surface to make it rough , apply glue, screw and fix then permanently..
Victor.....
External dimensions of this box shall be, b1 = 24". b2 = 6" . h = 15.6" . L = 32" and the mounting surface available shall be 18",
total internal volume becomes 3.4 cu ft.... ( substracting the bracing and the woofer displacement you should be pretty close to the 3 cu ft mark..
if u wanna go further low, then either you can decrease the length of this enclosure from 32" to 30" or add more bracings.. each of such bracing made from 1.5" board should be around 0.08 cuft..and if made from a 1 " board then would be around 0.05 cuft...
i would suggest you dont need to buy 1.5" board just for a piece of bracing... a 1" board is sufficiently strong and you can always use another layer of the 1" board if you want a thicker and stronger bracing or mounting surface... the 1.5" board is costlier as compared to a 1" board.. why waste money when the 1"er would be enough...
swez on 05/21/2007 17:07:23
Good drawings for the time allowed Victor... Interesting how our numbers match, but the angle are a tad off on my part. Looks like your angles are closer to 45 degrees? Also, see the height is has been adjusted downward to a lower height. That's cool if the sub has enough space on that baffle board.
The center brace could be a bit less cut out and nets less internal airspace too. A little extra boarding, (Filler) can be used to bring the internal box size to the desired dimensions after all the displacements are calculated.
Swez
PS Nice work on the layout and fabrication info. I had a rough time with this design and have learned that I have limits and need to ask for more help at times. Thanks for pitching in.
PSS Should we talk about a rebate Dem?
Victor on 05/21/2007 17:22:10
the numbers will surely be very close as I didnt go all the way to design a new box, just took whatever u mailed me as a base drawing and modified it to scale, just a few minor changes here and there.....
a lot of people find it hard to understand 2d technical level drawings such as plans, sections and elevations..i just tried to draw a 3 d image as its easier to understand an image that replicates to what we actually see..
the angles are 60' and 30' to be precise...
trigonometry...
on a right angled triangle ABC where angle B = 90'
if AB = 9" , AC ( hypotenus ) = 18" and angle CAB = 60' then the resultant height of the adjacent side ie. BC = 15.6"
Victor..
Ps. making the bracing cut outs a bit smaller can help occupy more volume to close in to the desired internal volume..and also make the bracing much more stronger...
either we add more bracings or decrease the length of the box by an inch or 2 as required.. rest all seems to be fine if the guy who is making this box understands the integration...
Pss . At CK and specially for a guide and friend like you dave.. "thanks" and "sorry" are 2 words that are out of my dictionary.. COFFEE
just noticed something.. this seems to be the longest post i have seen in this current year.. this box has to work out.. i appreciate the kind of patience shown by demet on this project.. lot of people give in and buy a pre-fab only to regret it later..
swez on 05/21/2007 18:18:16
Indeed... a less patient man would give up and buy a prefab for sure.
As for "Thanks and Sorry"... they are considered very appropriate words in our culture. Unfortunately, too many youngers do not show such appreciation or regrets. I don't know what it is, but I was raised to say Please, Thank you, Yes Sir, No Sir and if I made a mistake, appologize or my Dad would rectify that in short order. (Then I would really be sorry for the broken laws of his Kingdom) What can I say... I was just raised that way. Hehe
Cheers Mate,
Swez
Victor on 05/22/2007 11:13:57
SMILE I agree they are words of a Humble man...
SWEZ : Thank you Victor...
Victor : Ah... ure always welcome, anything for you Dave..
hehehehehe...
I believe in simplicity... no thanks no welcome,, no matter even if we've never seen each others face.... we're friends.... that says it all.. COFFEE..
Pss.. Dem please document this project at all levels with pictures and short notes... its good habit to document projects so that we can learn from the process and keep on improving...
swez on 05/22/2007 21:37:04
Uh Huh... you get it! So do I...
Swez
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