i have 4 12inch kenwood dual ohm subwoofers rated at 1500 peak and i am running them off a 2 ch 5000 watt amp but i am not pleased with there performance SAD. my question being THINK do i get another amp like it or get to new matching amps to run them please help.
Replies (35)
kirchatndftbl on 05/2/2007 07:40:09
what are the model numbers on the subs and amp?
when choosing an amplifier you should concentrate on the rms of a sub and amp not the peak power
trunkisloud on 05/2/2007 09:25:27
model numbers on the amp and subs are important ...as well as what type of enclosure and how big....
swez on 05/2/2007 09:42:55
There are many factors that go into having a great sounding sub system. It's not the number of subs used so much as the enclosure design they are housed in. Even placement in the vehicle can make a big difference too.
More information on your amp and subs would definitely be helpful. (Make and model numbers) With that, we can make some helpful suggestions.
What vehicle are you working with here?
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 05:34:20
the kenwood sub's are rated at 800 rms each the amp is powervox rated at 2300 rms the sub's are in sealed dual enclosure's an are placed facing upward. car 1988 corolla
jamesp on 05/3/2007 08:21:15
So far, I have only been able to find one 2 channel AS-6200 Powervox amp. It has no RMS rating and a max rating of 1400 watts.
Can you provide model numbers for the amp and subs?
It is hard for these guys to help you with no information on sub voice coil configuration and amp specs. Without this info it is all just a guess.
Bring on the details.
swez on 05/3/2007 08:31:26
Yes, make and model numbers would be most helpful here. I did not know Kenwood made any subs that can handle 800 Wrms/ea., in the US market. This one?
http://www.cardomain.com/item/KENKFCW3514DVC
Also, what is the major complaint with your system now? (Weak bass, sloppy bass, high distortion when you dial up the power?) Please ellaborate a bit OK?
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 09:36:10
thats the model. the amp is running at full power the bass is there but not as much as you would expect from four sub's. im from australia.
eckzman on 05/3/2007 10:32:06
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-5000-Watt-2-Channel-Car-Audio-Power-Amplifier-Amp_W0QQitemZ260113643842QQihZ016QQcategoryZ18796QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
eckzman on 05/3/2007 10:35:30
that is the link for the amp specs but it has no rms rating
gearhead on 05/3/2007 11:21:19
From what I can find, that amp has 3- 25A fuses, and it's "advertised" by the manufacturer at 500W/ch (whether that's RMS or peak it doesn't say, I'm willing to bet peak).
It looks like "someone" did some photoshopping on that eBay pic and changed the "2 x 500 WATTS" to "2 x 2500 WATTS"
http://www.powervox.cn/prodpic/200741695815271580.jpg
swez on 05/3/2007 14:27:56
Based on the fuses, (3 x 25=75) that amp is likely to spec out at about 500 - 600 Watts RMS when bridged. Not bad, but nowhere near strong enough to power all 4 Kenwood subs mentioned to capacity.
Suggestion: This amp is probably good for a pair of subs max. You can run 1 sub/channel and wire each sub for 2 ohms. (Each sub coil in parallel with the other) That would be usable and deliver some solid bass.
It will look like this wiring wise, but 1 sub per channel:
http://img8.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img8&image=1dvcparallel1yl.jpg
Swez
jamesp on 05/3/2007 14:49:17
They dont give you a lot of wiggle room on box sizes , huh?
I saw and heard a pair of Kenwood subs that look like these( they may all look alike as far as I know) at the local car audio shop and they sounded good to me.
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: 1.20 - 1.20 cu. ft.
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.70 - 1.70 cu. ft.
swez on 05/3/2007 14:58:18
There's probably good reason for the tight specs on these subs too. After looking at the sub, it seems well built for a medium budget sub, but not a powerhouse sub that can handle 800 Wrms all day long in a large ported box. A small enclosure helps limit excursion. That means more power can be thrown at it and still survive. However, that strong deep bass may be lacking as a result. It's a good "Daily Driver" system for sure, but not a "Ground Pounding" SPL sub at all.
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 20:32:37
so should i get another one like it to run the other pair. will that give alot of deep punchy bass?
eckzman on 05/3/2007 20:40:29
the amp ran one sub perfectly. no distortion clear deep bass it was freaky
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 20:47:43
More isnt always better. More = More Hassle basically. Yes you can assume a 3dB increase with each additional woofer added, but if you dont have the power to support the requirements of the woofers then in reality, your either breaking even or taking a loss in performance.
I prefer to run single sub setups. When I was competing my single 15 was beating out 3 12" systems, and some dual 15's. Yah, they would have whooped me if they had the proper wattage and spent as much time designing and testing as I did but they didnt. GG
Buy another amplifier if you have the right electrical upgrades. That is if you want to run two 12s or whatever.
Cant really make an indepth reply since I'm at work. Sorry
-30
eckzman on 05/3/2007 21:25:45
will capicator's help at all?
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 22:02:43
Capacitors will help with very minor light dimming but IMO their nothing more than Audio Jewelery. For the price of a cap, you can buy a higher CCA battery and get rid of the same problem. Not only that but Caps add more resistance because of the extra connections in the system. Yes its not that much but in the end the lower the resistance the better as far as power runs go.
With a high power system you end up upgrading your alternator to a higher output, bigger batteries (or multiple batts) and upgrading all your power and ground wires to 0 guage or multiple runs of such.
jamesp on 05/3/2007 22:14:45
Wire 2 subs at 2 Ohms each like Swez suggested in his post above. Put one sub on each channel and see how well that sounds. If they hit hard enough to suit you, then consider another amp for your second pair. You dont have enough power for 4 subs with the amp you have.
eckzman on 05/4/2007 03:55:08
i'll try that ok thanks for the suggestions fellas i'll see how i go
newB on 05/4/2007 04:25:45
or you can just go out and grab a decent amp.
;D
-Drew
swez on 05/4/2007 06:32:08
With this amp, 2 subs are probably the best option for now. Adding a 2nd matching amp and all 4 subs will create a new and more expensive option:
1. Cost of the 2nd amp
2. 0 gage power line
3. H.O. Battery needed
4. Probably need a H.O. Alternator too
Is an extra +3-5dB worth all that? For a bit more low end SPL Bass, consider a ported box and use only 2 subs as noted earlier. The porting will give a solid +3dB more bass around the port tuning frequency.
Swez
eckzman on 05/5/2007 02:15:07
wat kind of amp do u suggest to run all four sub's nicely?
wat would be the best RMS to run these sub's at?
swez on 05/5/2007 09:05:50
The recommended amp would be a Class D sub amp that can deliver a solid 2500 - 3000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. That will give each sub about 600 - 750 Wrms and be plenty for these subs.
However, the current draw on such an amp, will greatly tax your stock electrical system as well, when you really push the system to its limits. The amp alone can draw spikes in excess of 200 amperes of current.
eckzman on 05/6/2007 21:26:37
Wat brand of amp would have a RMS rating of that much? The highest i've seen is only 1000RMS from a 2ch us audio amp. Swez can u please suggest a few amp's that would be powerful enough much appreciated eckzman.
kirchatndftbl on 05/6/2007 22:30:04
maybe 2 amps one per 2 subs
swez on 05/7/2007 06:26:00
Eckzman,
Frankly, I don't have any comments on large power amps for SPL applications such as this one. Am sure there are a few CK'ers who have explored this venue far deeper than I have. Perhaps 30 Hertz, Kittle or others can guide you in this one. I just don't have the background on amps >1000 watts.
Any way it's sliced, this will be a very expensive project for amps and electrical upgrades. Consider looking at matching amps from HiFonics, Power Acoustik, US Amps or other amps that are 1 ohm stable and deliver about 1500 Wrms @ 1 ohm loads. (1 amp powering 2 subs each)
Good luck.
Swez
30Hertz on 05/8/2007 19:43:24
If your looking at amplifiers that are going to produce a solid 2000+ watts RMS at 2ohm or higher, your going to be forking out some serious cash. You might be able to find some two channels that can fork out that amount of power bridged for 2ohms but your going to loose the efficiency of a mono block.
Most high performance amplifiers are going to shine at 1ohm for power.
Generally when designing a system, you factor in the impendance of the drivers b4 buying the amplifier to avoid issues such as this (if this is the case).
For amplifiers check into:
Orion (I own an Orion 2500d and love it)
Sundown Audio
Incriminator Audio
Memphis
US Amps (look for an older generation amplifier, the new ones aren't exactly the same quality anymore, but their still fine)
Tru Technology
Resonant Engineering
There are others also. Quite frankly if your looking for SOLID performance any of the amps listed above will provide, However, these are not the cheapest around.
I tend to stay away from HiFonics since I hear alot of not so positive experiences from people I know. I've persoanlly used the Power Acoustik 3000dB amplifier and it ran just fine. After about a year of use the fan started to go out but still worked. Keep in mind It wasnt producing the wattage is claimed but non the less I was happy with it.
Also please bear in mind the fact that with bigger amplifiers, comes bigger amp draws from your electricals. Get ready for some upgrades such as a High Output alternator >200amp, Bigger Battery (high CCA) and larger guage wiring needed to keep the current flowing without problems.
-30
eckzman on 05/9/2007 03:38:48
What is the difference between running a mono or 2ch?
Im prepaired to pay because i want some serious bass.
How much power can be pumped into these sub's RMS wise?
swez on 05/9/2007 11:24:58
After looking at those subs, I would be hesitant to go much over 600 Wrms per sub. Yes, they say 800, but looking at them VS more expensive subs that tout same or higher ratings, I don't think these
K-woods can handle that rating.
As I said before, not to familiar w/ the heavy duty amps most SPL guys use. But 30 Hertz gave you a very good list. (I would take his advice on HiFonics too... look elsewhere)
Mono vs 2 channel?
Class D Mono amps are designed for Bass. They are more efficient with power draw VS power output too. (~80% efficiency too, draws 1000 watts, delivers ~800 watts)
Class A/B stereo amps, (full range) are fine for full range speakers and moderate Bass apps too. They are typically about 60% efficient. (Meaning, draws 1000 watts, puts out ~600 watts)
Yes, plan to fork out some serious cash here if you go to the hilt. We can guide you along, but just pay close attention to the advice and recommendations you get from CK'ers and follow Mfg'ers recommendations as well.
Swez
eckzman on 05/9/2007 23:20:24
ok thanks for the advice guy's im going to look into the list 30 suggested.
Taking into account wat swez said,run the sub"s at no more than 600. 30 would 2 mono amps with a rating of 1000 RMS or so would be enough then?
30Hertz on 05/9/2007 23:22:40
Yah two Mono Amplifiers with a rating of 1000rms each would be enough for the subs to work on. Just make sure when setting the gains you set them exactly the same. This can be a challenge but is doable.
Just make sure your electricals on the can can support the load =).
eckzman on 05/9/2007 23:53:24
30 wat is the best way to wire the sub's wen running two of them on a mono amp?
swez on 05/10/2007 11:05:58
It depends on the amps used. In this case, use a pair of 1 ohm stable Mono amps. Your subs can then be wired full parallel to each amp for a solid 1 ohm per amp. Here's a wiring chart to help you:
http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
Swez
kirchatndftbl on 05/10/2007 23:43:02
maybe take a look at this amp
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6522_Hifonics+BXi+1206D.html
Replies (35)
kirchatndftbl on 05/2/2007 07:40:09
what are the model numbers on the subs and amp?
when choosing an amplifier you should concentrate on the rms of a sub and amp not the peak power
trunkisloud on 05/2/2007 09:25:27
model numbers on the amp and subs are important ...as well as what type of enclosure and how big....
swez on 05/2/2007 09:42:55
There are many factors that go into having a great sounding sub system. It's not the number of subs used so much as the enclosure design they are housed in. Even placement in the vehicle can make a big difference too.
More information on your amp and subs would definitely be helpful. (Make and model numbers) With that, we can make some helpful suggestions.
What vehicle are you working with here?
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 05:34:20
the kenwood sub's are rated at 800 rms each the amp is powervox rated at 2300 rms the sub's are in sealed dual enclosure's an are placed facing upward. car 1988 corolla
jamesp on 05/3/2007 08:21:15
So far, I have only been able to find one 2 channel AS-6200 Powervox amp. It has no RMS rating and a max rating of 1400 watts.
Can you provide model numbers for the amp and subs?
It is hard for these guys to help you with no information on sub voice coil configuration and amp specs. Without this info it is all just a guess.
Bring on the details.
swez on 05/3/2007 08:31:26
Yes, make and model numbers would be most helpful here. I did not know Kenwood made any subs that can handle 800 Wrms/ea., in the US market. This one?
http://www.cardomain.com/item/KENKFCW3514DVC
Also, what is the major complaint with your system now? (Weak bass, sloppy bass, high distortion when you dial up the power?) Please ellaborate a bit OK?
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 09:36:10
thats the model. the amp is running at full power the bass is there but not as much as you would expect from four sub's. im from australia.
eckzman on 05/3/2007 10:32:06
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-5000-Watt-2-Channel-Car-Audio-Power-Amplifier-Amp_W0QQitemZ260113643842QQihZ016QQcategoryZ18796QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
eckzman on 05/3/2007 10:35:30
that is the link for the amp specs but it has no rms rating
gearhead on 05/3/2007 11:21:19
From what I can find, that amp has 3- 25A fuses, and it's "advertised" by the manufacturer at 500W/ch (whether that's RMS or peak it doesn't say, I'm willing to bet peak).
It looks like "someone" did some photoshopping on that eBay pic and changed the "2 x 500 WATTS" to "2 x 2500 WATTS"
http://www.powervox.cn/prodpic/200741695815271580.jpg
swez on 05/3/2007 14:27:56
Based on the fuses, (3 x 25=75) that amp is likely to spec out at about 500 - 600 Watts RMS when bridged. Not bad, but nowhere near strong enough to power all 4 Kenwood subs mentioned to capacity.
Suggestion: This amp is probably good for a pair of subs max. You can run 1 sub/channel and wire each sub for 2 ohms. (Each sub coil in parallel with the other) That would be usable and deliver some solid bass.
It will look like this wiring wise, but 1 sub per channel:
http://img8.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img8&image=1dvcparallel1yl.jpg
Swez
jamesp on 05/3/2007 14:49:17
They dont give you a lot of wiggle room on box sizes , huh?
I saw and heard a pair of Kenwood subs that look like these( they may all look alike as far as I know) at the local car audio shop and they sounded good to me.
Rec. Sealed Box Dims: 1.20 - 1.20 cu. ft.
Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.70 - 1.70 cu. ft.
swez on 05/3/2007 14:58:18
There's probably good reason for the tight specs on these subs too. After looking at the sub, it seems well built for a medium budget sub, but not a powerhouse sub that can handle 800 Wrms all day long in a large ported box. A small enclosure helps limit excursion. That means more power can be thrown at it and still survive. However, that strong deep bass may be lacking as a result. It's a good "Daily Driver" system for sure, but not a "Ground Pounding" SPL sub at all.
Swez
eckzman on 05/3/2007 20:32:37
so should i get another one like it to run the other pair. will that give alot of deep punchy bass?
eckzman on 05/3/2007 20:40:29
the amp ran one sub perfectly. no distortion clear deep bass it was freaky
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 20:47:43
More isnt always better. More = More Hassle basically. Yes you can assume a 3dB increase with each additional woofer added, but if you dont have the power to support the requirements of the woofers then in reality, your either breaking even or taking a loss in performance.
I prefer to run single sub setups. When I was competing my single 15 was beating out 3 12" systems, and some dual 15's. Yah, they would have whooped me if they had the proper wattage and spent as much time designing and testing as I did but they didnt. GG
Buy another amplifier if you have the right electrical upgrades. That is if you want to run two 12s or whatever.
Cant really make an indepth reply since I'm at work. Sorry
-30
eckzman on 05/3/2007 21:25:45
will capicator's help at all?
30Hertz on 05/3/2007 22:02:43
Capacitors will help with very minor light dimming but IMO their nothing more than Audio Jewelery. For the price of a cap, you can buy a higher CCA battery and get rid of the same problem. Not only that but Caps add more resistance because of the extra connections in the system. Yes its not that much but in the end the lower the resistance the better as far as power runs go.
With a high power system you end up upgrading your alternator to a higher output, bigger batteries (or multiple batts) and upgrading all your power and ground wires to 0 guage or multiple runs of such.
jamesp on 05/3/2007 22:14:45
Wire 2 subs at 2 Ohms each like Swez suggested in his post above. Put one sub on each channel and see how well that sounds. If they hit hard enough to suit you, then consider another amp for your second pair. You dont have enough power for 4 subs with the amp you have.
eckzman on 05/4/2007 03:55:08
i'll try that ok thanks for the suggestions fellas i'll see how i go
newB on 05/4/2007 04:25:45
or you can just go out and grab a decent amp.
;D
-Drew
swez on 05/4/2007 06:32:08
With this amp, 2 subs are probably the best option for now. Adding a 2nd matching amp and all 4 subs will create a new and more expensive option:
1. Cost of the 2nd amp
2. 0 gage power line
3. H.O. Battery needed
4. Probably need a H.O. Alternator too
Is an extra +3-5dB worth all that? For a bit more low end SPL Bass, consider a ported box and use only 2 subs as noted earlier. The porting will give a solid +3dB more bass around the port tuning frequency.
Swez
eckzman on 05/5/2007 02:15:07
wat kind of amp do u suggest to run all four sub's nicely?
wat would be the best RMS to run these sub's at?
swez on 05/5/2007 09:05:50
The recommended amp would be a Class D sub amp that can deliver a solid 2500 - 3000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. That will give each sub about 600 - 750 Wrms and be plenty for these subs.
However, the current draw on such an amp, will greatly tax your stock electrical system as well, when you really push the system to its limits. The amp alone can draw spikes in excess of 200 amperes of current.
eckzman on 05/6/2007 21:26:37
Wat brand of amp would have a RMS rating of that much? The highest i've seen is only 1000RMS from a 2ch us audio amp. Swez can u please suggest a few amp's that would be powerful enough much appreciated eckzman.
kirchatndftbl on 05/6/2007 22:30:04
maybe 2 amps one per 2 subs
swez on 05/7/2007 06:26:00
Eckzman,
Frankly, I don't have any comments on large power amps for SPL applications such as this one. Am sure there are a few CK'ers who have explored this venue far deeper than I have. Perhaps 30 Hertz, Kittle or others can guide you in this one. I just don't have the background on amps >1000 watts.
Any way it's sliced, this will be a very expensive project for amps and electrical upgrades. Consider looking at matching amps from HiFonics, Power Acoustik, US Amps or other amps that are 1 ohm stable and deliver about 1500 Wrms @ 1 ohm loads. (1 amp powering 2 subs each)
Good luck.
Swez
30Hertz on 05/8/2007 19:43:24
If your looking at amplifiers that are going to produce a solid 2000+ watts RMS at 2ohm or higher, your going to be forking out some serious cash. You might be able to find some two channels that can fork out that amount of power bridged for 2ohms but your going to loose the efficiency of a mono block.
Most high performance amplifiers are going to shine at 1ohm for power.
Generally when designing a system, you factor in the impendance of the drivers b4 buying the amplifier to avoid issues such as this (if this is the case).
For amplifiers check into:
Orion (I own an Orion 2500d and love it)
Sundown Audio
Incriminator Audio
Memphis
US Amps (look for an older generation amplifier, the new ones aren't exactly the same quality anymore, but their still fine)
Tru Technology
Resonant Engineering
There are others also. Quite frankly if your looking for SOLID performance any of the amps listed above will provide, However, these are not the cheapest around.
I tend to stay away from HiFonics since I hear alot of not so positive experiences from people I know. I've persoanlly used the Power Acoustik 3000dB amplifier and it ran just fine. After about a year of use the fan started to go out but still worked. Keep in mind It wasnt producing the wattage is claimed but non the less I was happy with it.
Also please bear in mind the fact that with bigger amplifiers, comes bigger amp draws from your electricals. Get ready for some upgrades such as a High Output alternator >200amp, Bigger Battery (high CCA) and larger guage wiring needed to keep the current flowing without problems.
-30
eckzman on 05/9/2007 03:38:48
What is the difference between running a mono or 2ch?
Im prepaired to pay because i want some serious bass.
How much power can be pumped into these sub's RMS wise?
swez on 05/9/2007 11:24:58
After looking at those subs, I would be hesitant to go much over 600 Wrms per sub. Yes, they say 800, but looking at them VS more expensive subs that tout same or higher ratings, I don't think these
K-woods can handle that rating.
As I said before, not to familiar w/ the heavy duty amps most SPL guys use. But 30 Hertz gave you a very good list. (I would take his advice on HiFonics too... look elsewhere)
Mono vs 2 channel?
Class D Mono amps are designed for Bass. They are more efficient with power draw VS power output too. (~80% efficiency too, draws 1000 watts, delivers ~800 watts)
Class A/B stereo amps, (full range) are fine for full range speakers and moderate Bass apps too. They are typically about 60% efficient. (Meaning, draws 1000 watts, puts out ~600 watts)
Yes, plan to fork out some serious cash here if you go to the hilt. We can guide you along, but just pay close attention to the advice and recommendations you get from CK'ers and follow Mfg'ers recommendations as well.
Swez
eckzman on 05/9/2007 23:20:24
ok thanks for the advice guy's im going to look into the list 30 suggested.
Taking into account wat swez said,run the sub"s at no more than 600. 30 would 2 mono amps with a rating of 1000 RMS or so would be enough then?
30Hertz on 05/9/2007 23:22:40
Yah two Mono Amplifiers with a rating of 1000rms each would be enough for the subs to work on. Just make sure when setting the gains you set them exactly the same. This can be a challenge but is doable.
Just make sure your electricals on the can can support the load =).
eckzman on 05/9/2007 23:53:24
30 wat is the best way to wire the sub's wen running two of them on a mono amp?
swez on 05/10/2007 11:05:58
It depends on the amps used. In this case, use a pair of 1 ohm stable Mono amps. Your subs can then be wired full parallel to each amp for a solid 1 ohm per amp. Here's a wiring chart to help you:
http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
Swez
kirchatndftbl on 05/10/2007 23:43:02
maybe take a look at this amp
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6522_Hifonics+BXi+1206D.html
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