I am currently running 3 Phoenixgold Tantrum TX 12 DVC subs powered by 1 PG R801 amp. I plan to upgrade these subs. I have a few in mind but they are really out of my price range due to the US/Canadian exchange rate. Eclipse SW9122, JL W7, and the MTX 9000 series. Just want to know if there are less expensive brands that will deliver comparable results as these three.
I guess what I'm really aiming for is more bass that has alot of punch to it, not necessarily low bass that makes my ear go numb.
Replies (12)
Swez on 08/16/2003 16:15:11
May have more to do with the box used than the subs. With 3 subs in a huge box, no dividers etc, deep bass is usually the result. Also, being a sedan, the subs are mounted in the trunk. This tends to drop off the punch and give you a deep dronning bass too.
Can the rear seats fold down to open up the trunk into cabin on this model vehicle?
Would you be willing to hang tight on the subs, (good subs) make a new enclosure a tad smaller and use only 2 subs this time in a compact dual 12 enclosure?
Also, for now, try dialing back on the bass boost on amp to "0" boost, on HU, set bass tone controls closer to flat... (no boost, no cut) and reset the sub amp crossover to say 100 Hz. This may help pull out the deep bass in the 40-50 Hz range.
Finally, do you have the cf size of the present enclosure? Is it sealed or ported? Height, width and deep. (mm, cm or inches is fine)
Swez
PS The enclosure design is a critical part of the equation here. If the box is large, you get more boom. If using a more compact enclosure design (sealed) should be able to get some more punch from what you already have.
jmach on 08/19/2003 23:27:58
thanks for the comment. Yes the back seat can be folded down. As for the enclosure, I'm not sure what the dimension are because it was built by the car audio installer. Basically all 3 subs are squeezed into one box edge to edge. In fact the middle sub had some of the outside rubber trim cut away to make them fit.
So you're saying that I can get more punch with 2 subs in a better enclosure? What about the SPL? would I be able to hit the 150dB with what I have? What would I need to do to acheive that? Currently have dynamat in trunk and doors. Sound better than before but not enough.
Swez on 08/20/2003 08:14:41
Yes, changing the enclosure dimensions has a big effect on bass performance. Not so much the external dimensions, but the internal dimensions are the key.
Now, that PG 801 amp as I recall, is rated pretty much close to 800 watts RMS. Your subs were somewhere ~250 watts RMS each. That is why they used 3 of them. If you want them to sound better (less boomy) a change of the current box they are in should help.
Since you have 3 subs rim to rim to rim the width of the box is probabably 38-40". (3x12 =36") What is the height and depth measurements of your box? (Get out your YoYo and measure these) and run it back to this post and I'll crunch some numbers on it.
I would expect the "H" dimension to be 15-16" high. Confirm that and tell me what the depth (all dimensions) of the box is.
About hitting 150dB... there's a lot that goes into a system that can do 150 or higher. Mostly very larger amp(s), very high power handling subs and port tuning the sub box to the resonant frequency of your vehicle. This would be somewhere between 55-70 Hz.
Guys in this game, usually have dual ports. One for daily driving as it sounds better. The other port is tuned for car resonance and great for 1 loud burp tone and that's it. A lousy performer for anything but a burp tone.
Do you think you can sell the box and speakers for a decent price and just use 1 high performance sub in a dual port enclosure? If yes, I need to review the specs on your amp to see what the minimum safe ohms load it can handle.
After looking at your sub specs, a pair of them will not handle the power this amp can deliver without damage to the subs, or reducing amp power to the subs. Neither option will produce high SPL without potential damage to these subs.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have web links to this amp and subs? Saves me time having to do a search to find them.
jmach on 08/20/2003 23:09:33
http://www.phoenixgold.com/octane_r2/amplifiers.asp
this link is to download the manual for the R801
the amp is stable at two ohms - I think.
http://www.phoenixgold.com/tantrumx/txsub.html
this is manual for the subs.
here are the measurements for the enclosure
H 16 inch, D 10.5 inch and the W is 37.5 inch and the it's sealed.
I can't go any wider than this, I can go deeper if I cut the height about an inch to allow for the trunk hinges.
I don't understand what you mean by dual port? If I have dual port how can I only use one at a time, unless I plug one of them. Also how would I go get the proper enclosure size.
you also mentioned getting a more powerful sub. Would one of the above that I mentioned be able to hit the 150 with the same amp or do I need two amp and two sub.
If I can get away with just redesigning the enclosure, I would prefer that.
Swez on 08/21/2003 06:07:16
OK, looked at the amp specs and this one is a Class D mono amp. Good SQ choice... I might add.
The subs are 350 watts RMS x 3 and the enclosure specs I calculated are about 2.7 cf internally or ~0.9cf per sub... not bad here either. Could go a tad less in the depth dimension here, but leave H & W as is.
This is really not something I would recommend however, if high SPL is your goal, the system you have now, is pretty well balanced... but not enough amping power here to reach the SPL target you have mentioned. The subs will not take the power to reach your goal either. If you had 4 of these subs and a 1200 watt amp... maybe come pretty close to that 150dB in a burb tone test.
Before talking about revamping your entire system, we need to look at your power supply... ALT & BAT output capacity. Need to find out what the amperage rating of your ALT is now and also the CCA (cold cranking amps) of that battery. Can you call the dealer and find out what stock ALT rating is? If under ~100A, adding a larger amp may require a larger output ALT and larger CCA rated battery. This gets expensive if you have to change both and upgrade the power wires between AT/BAT and BAT/GND. (#4 gage wires)
Finally, about porting... yes, a dual port box is one which you have either a removable port and 2 port designs. One is for a daily driver. The other port is designed for burb tones and SPL tuned only. The other option, employ 2 ports in the enclosure. One tuned for daily use, the other for high SPL burps only. Just plug the one you don't need etc....
Comments?
Swez
PS I'd hate to suggest selling off what you have now, unless you are committed to a total revamp of the entire system. The problem, you'll loose a lot off the selling price of the system and have to cough up some big bucks to buy a larger amp, a pair of high SPL subs and a box. Then couple that with ALT/BAT upgrades... could be talking close to $2000 (CAN) Are you prepared to make that step?
jmach on 08/22/2003 00:03:05
I called the dealership and they told me the ALT is 105 amps. Still don't know what the battery CCA is. I have 4 guage power wire and ground right now so that won't be an issue.
I am prepared to drop another two grand to get 2 really good subs and enclosure amp, etc. to hit the 150+. However I don't know if that's attainable considering how overpriced everything is here in Canada. If I do decide to revamp my system do you have any suggestions as to where I can get the gear for cheaper? And where can I go to sell my existing stuff? I don't want to sell through Ebay because there's already thousands of ads for this stuff.
the other option I may consider too, is would a dual port enclosure fit in my trunk with the same # of subs or should I go with 2 subs?
I'll need to get the audio guys to build this box for me. Would they know what I'm talking about and be able to build it to the right cf?
Swez on 08/22/2003 14:33:17
If this is a stock electrical system and a modest 6 cylinder engine, probably have 550-600 CCA Stock battery. You get about 3-5 winters from this battery, so an upgrade to a larger battery is not wasted money.
That 105A ALT can be upgraded without too much fuss too. If you needed it later, am sure there is a 120A version that will drop right in. I would hope it's not needed for daily driver use, depending how loud you play your system.
Selling off ebay may be an option... but talk to your buddies and see if they will offer you a reasonable price. If all is in great condition and still has warrantee, start at 75% of what you paid for the gear. (not including the install)
As for getting new gear, the Internet is the best place for price and choices. Some E-tail shops will ship to Canada. If you live near a boarder crossing into USA, can always have a delivery there, have it sent to your home address and install as you can.
http://www.thezeb.com/help/policies.html
Shipping and Handling
Shipping is free for all orders over $99 (orders under $99 ship for just $6.95) delivered anywhere in the continental United States by UPS ground service. Your packages are fully insured. There are no hidden charges or fees. Shipping with UPS Next Day Air, UPS 2nd Day Air, USPS Priority Mail, Fed-Ex, or other service is available for an additional charge. If you live outside the continental United States, you will be emailed a shipping quote for your approval before your order is processed. Call for additional details.
BTW, how much did these shop guys charge you for a custom box design? Curious???
Finally, ported sub enclosures are much more math intensive, to design a well tuned system. For Daily Driver, port tuning of ~35Hz is very good. For High SPL tuning, have to figure out what the car resonance frequency is. A test tone CD and SPL meter will help you figure this one out. My guess... something in the range of 55-70 Hz would be max SPL. Once that number (Hz) is defined, then a tuned port for that frequency can be fabricated. But before going that far, have to start looking for subs that will meet your needs.
Thinking about Audiobahn, Cerwin Vega (Strokers), Adire Brahma, Crossfire, RF Power HX2, Lightning Audio and several others too... not cheap, but can take a lot of power.
Swez
PS Poke around on the zeb audion site and see if any of the above mentioned subs catch you attention.
jmach on 08/23/2003 09:47:56
thanks for all the help.
As for the box they charge me $350. It came as a package with all the gear and the install.
Swez on 08/23/2003 16:43:00
OK, maybe a good box, but this system will not get you to your final goals of High SPL and good SQ.
Am wondering if you can get a 2nd amp to match what you have and buy a pair of subs. One sub/one amp x 2. This will save you some loses on the sale of what you have now. If you can get enough cash from the sale of the enclosure and woofers to pay for a 2nd amp, can you swing about $800.00 (USD) for the 2 subs and a box?
Also, do you have any fiends that have wood working tools and some experience to help you fabricate a good enclosure? If yes, a solid enclosure will only cost ~ $65-80.00 (CAN) If you buy one, figure at least double that amount, if not more.
Have a look at these:
http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/woofers/highExcursion.html
AW1200Q 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 4ohm voice coils - 700 watts RMS $ 185.99 each.
http://www.splusa.net/products_woofers_splw.html
SPLW-12 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 1ohm voice coils - 1100 watts RMS $ 189.99
http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/DigitalAudio/DA_UE.htm 1DA-DAW1205 12 2 4 $209.99 ea.
NOTE: Going to be a challenge coming up with subs that net 2 ohms for your amp, and still take close to 800 RMS or higher per sub. Most in this power range are dual 2 ohm, 6 ohm versions and no 2 ohm single voice coils I know about. This power range gets pretty pricey so you may have to go with 1 sub & amp initially, then add a 2nd matching set as you can swing it.
Comment?
Swez
jmach on 09/7/2003 14:49:24
Hi Swez,
just to update you on what's happening here. I've decided to hold off on everything. Because I just install 2 other amps. One kenwood 2 channel RMS 40 X 2 for the back speakers and Phoenix gold R804 RMS 75 X 4 for the 2 sets of components up front. After doing all this there was no room left anymore amps. For now everything was installed on the back of the rear seats. The amps fit just perfectly. Any larger would not be possible. I have looked into the MTX Thunder 9500 subs which are better than the JL W7. I can get them for around $700 Cdn ea from an authorized dealer here. But I won't get them just yet as I don't know how I'm going to fit bigger amps without doing custom moulds for them in the trunk.
The other thing I wanted to ask you was, do I need to upgrade my alternator for the time being. The total current draw is 160 amp based on all the amp fuses total. And also I have an 80 amp fuse in the inline at the battery using a 4 guage power wire. What is the biggest fuse that this wire can handle without starting a fire?
thanks for all your suggestions and help.
ttocs on 09/7/2003 15:51:28
you could try taking some space from the speakers to get a little more punch as well. Try putting a brick in the box temporarily and see what happens. By taking volume from the speakers you should get a little higher tuning. If it works you can screw some extra wood in the box. if it doesn't work take the brick/wood out...
Swez on 09/7/2003 19:07:21
Yep... that works... makes the box smaller for more punch...
ALT... if your lights are not dimming badly on bass hists with all those extra amplifiers... not to worry. A larger CCA rated battery will help buffer current demands well to all amps. Figure a 800 CCA ampere rating or higher will do well.
That subs amp is a Class D amp so it will be very efficient with power in VS power output. Your PG Gold 4 channel may draw a bit more current than the sub amp at high SPL levels... but the 3rd amp is pretty small in power consumption compared to the others mentioned.
Finally, #4 gage wire may a tad too small if you are running all 3 amps of same. To chech if you need larger power/ground wiring here, run the system hard in a place you will not bother anyone for say 20 -30 minutes. Then feel the #4 power feed wire. If it feels warm or even hot... upgrade to #2 wire. If you do not notiice any overheating of the wire.... good enough. Check wire temps at both the fuse and the amp D-block.
Swez
I guess what I'm really aiming for is more bass that has alot of punch to it, not necessarily low bass that makes my ear go numb.
Replies (12)
Swez on 08/16/2003 16:15:11
May have more to do with the box used than the subs. With 3 subs in a huge box, no dividers etc, deep bass is usually the result. Also, being a sedan, the subs are mounted in the trunk. This tends to drop off the punch and give you a deep dronning bass too.
Can the rear seats fold down to open up the trunk into cabin on this model vehicle?
Would you be willing to hang tight on the subs, (good subs) make a new enclosure a tad smaller and use only 2 subs this time in a compact dual 12 enclosure?
Also, for now, try dialing back on the bass boost on amp to "0" boost, on HU, set bass tone controls closer to flat... (no boost, no cut) and reset the sub amp crossover to say 100 Hz. This may help pull out the deep bass in the 40-50 Hz range.
Finally, do you have the cf size of the present enclosure? Is it sealed or ported? Height, width and deep. (mm, cm or inches is fine)
Swez
PS The enclosure design is a critical part of the equation here. If the box is large, you get more boom. If using a more compact enclosure design (sealed) should be able to get some more punch from what you already have.
jmach on 08/19/2003 23:27:58
thanks for the comment. Yes the back seat can be folded down. As for the enclosure, I'm not sure what the dimension are because it was built by the car audio installer. Basically all 3 subs are squeezed into one box edge to edge. In fact the middle sub had some of the outside rubber trim cut away to make them fit.
So you're saying that I can get more punch with 2 subs in a better enclosure? What about the SPL? would I be able to hit the 150dB with what I have? What would I need to do to acheive that? Currently have dynamat in trunk and doors. Sound better than before but not enough.
Swez on 08/20/2003 08:14:41
Yes, changing the enclosure dimensions has a big effect on bass performance. Not so much the external dimensions, but the internal dimensions are the key.
Now, that PG 801 amp as I recall, is rated pretty much close to 800 watts RMS. Your subs were somewhere ~250 watts RMS each. That is why they used 3 of them. If you want them to sound better (less boomy) a change of the current box they are in should help.
Since you have 3 subs rim to rim to rim the width of the box is probabably 38-40". (3x12 =36") What is the height and depth measurements of your box? (Get out your YoYo and measure these) and run it back to this post and I'll crunch some numbers on it.
I would expect the "H" dimension to be 15-16" high. Confirm that and tell me what the depth (all dimensions) of the box is.
About hitting 150dB... there's a lot that goes into a system that can do 150 or higher. Mostly very larger amp(s), very high power handling subs and port tuning the sub box to the resonant frequency of your vehicle. This would be somewhere between 55-70 Hz.
Guys in this game, usually have dual ports. One for daily driving as it sounds better. The other port is tuned for car resonance and great for 1 loud burp tone and that's it. A lousy performer for anything but a burp tone.
Do you think you can sell the box and speakers for a decent price and just use 1 high performance sub in a dual port enclosure? If yes, I need to review the specs on your amp to see what the minimum safe ohms load it can handle.
After looking at your sub specs, a pair of them will not handle the power this amp can deliver without damage to the subs, or reducing amp power to the subs. Neither option will produce high SPL without potential damage to these subs.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have web links to this amp and subs? Saves me time having to do a search to find them.
jmach on 08/20/2003 23:09:33
http://www.phoenixgold.com/octane_r2/amplifiers.asp
this link is to download the manual for the R801
the amp is stable at two ohms - I think.
http://www.phoenixgold.com/tantrumx/txsub.html
this is manual for the subs.
here are the measurements for the enclosure
H 16 inch, D 10.5 inch and the W is 37.5 inch and the it's sealed.
I can't go any wider than this, I can go deeper if I cut the height about an inch to allow for the trunk hinges.
I don't understand what you mean by dual port? If I have dual port how can I only use one at a time, unless I plug one of them. Also how would I go get the proper enclosure size.
you also mentioned getting a more powerful sub. Would one of the above that I mentioned be able to hit the 150 with the same amp or do I need two amp and two sub.
If I can get away with just redesigning the enclosure, I would prefer that.
Swez on 08/21/2003 06:07:16
OK, looked at the amp specs and this one is a Class D mono amp. Good SQ choice... I might add.
The subs are 350 watts RMS x 3 and the enclosure specs I calculated are about 2.7 cf internally or ~0.9cf per sub... not bad here either. Could go a tad less in the depth dimension here, but leave H & W as is.
This is really not something I would recommend however, if high SPL is your goal, the system you have now, is pretty well balanced... but not enough amping power here to reach the SPL target you have mentioned. The subs will not take the power to reach your goal either. If you had 4 of these subs and a 1200 watt amp... maybe come pretty close to that 150dB in a burb tone test.
Before talking about revamping your entire system, we need to look at your power supply... ALT & BAT output capacity. Need to find out what the amperage rating of your ALT is now and also the CCA (cold cranking amps) of that battery. Can you call the dealer and find out what stock ALT rating is? If under ~100A, adding a larger amp may require a larger output ALT and larger CCA rated battery. This gets expensive if you have to change both and upgrade the power wires between AT/BAT and BAT/GND. (#4 gage wires)
Finally, about porting... yes, a dual port box is one which you have either a removable port and 2 port designs. One is for a daily driver. The other port is designed for burb tones and SPL tuned only. The other option, employ 2 ports in the enclosure. One tuned for daily use, the other for high SPL burps only. Just plug the one you don't need etc....
Comments?
Swez
PS I'd hate to suggest selling off what you have now, unless you are committed to a total revamp of the entire system. The problem, you'll loose a lot off the selling price of the system and have to cough up some big bucks to buy a larger amp, a pair of high SPL subs and a box. Then couple that with ALT/BAT upgrades... could be talking close to $2000 (CAN) Are you prepared to make that step?
jmach on 08/22/2003 00:03:05
I called the dealership and they told me the ALT is 105 amps. Still don't know what the battery CCA is. I have 4 guage power wire and ground right now so that won't be an issue.
I am prepared to drop another two grand to get 2 really good subs and enclosure amp, etc. to hit the 150+. However I don't know if that's attainable considering how overpriced everything is here in Canada. If I do decide to revamp my system do you have any suggestions as to where I can get the gear for cheaper? And where can I go to sell my existing stuff? I don't want to sell through Ebay because there's already thousands of ads for this stuff.
the other option I may consider too, is would a dual port enclosure fit in my trunk with the same # of subs or should I go with 2 subs?
I'll need to get the audio guys to build this box for me. Would they know what I'm talking about and be able to build it to the right cf?
Swez on 08/22/2003 14:33:17
If this is a stock electrical system and a modest 6 cylinder engine, probably have 550-600 CCA Stock battery. You get about 3-5 winters from this battery, so an upgrade to a larger battery is not wasted money.
That 105A ALT can be upgraded without too much fuss too. If you needed it later, am sure there is a 120A version that will drop right in. I would hope it's not needed for daily driver use, depending how loud you play your system.
Selling off ebay may be an option... but talk to your buddies and see if they will offer you a reasonable price. If all is in great condition and still has warrantee, start at 75% of what you paid for the gear. (not including the install)
As for getting new gear, the Internet is the best place for price and choices. Some E-tail shops will ship to Canada. If you live near a boarder crossing into USA, can always have a delivery there, have it sent to your home address and install as you can.
http://www.thezeb.com/help/policies.html
Shipping and Handling
Shipping is free for all orders over $99 (orders under $99 ship for just $6.95) delivered anywhere in the continental United States by UPS ground service. Your packages are fully insured. There are no hidden charges or fees. Shipping with UPS Next Day Air, UPS 2nd Day Air, USPS Priority Mail, Fed-Ex, or other service is available for an additional charge. If you live outside the continental United States, you will be emailed a shipping quote for your approval before your order is processed. Call for additional details.
BTW, how much did these shop guys charge you for a custom box design? Curious???
Finally, ported sub enclosures are much more math intensive, to design a well tuned system. For Daily Driver, port tuning of ~35Hz is very good. For High SPL tuning, have to figure out what the car resonance frequency is. A test tone CD and SPL meter will help you figure this one out. My guess... something in the range of 55-70 Hz would be max SPL. Once that number (Hz) is defined, then a tuned port for that frequency can be fabricated. But before going that far, have to start looking for subs that will meet your needs.
Thinking about Audiobahn, Cerwin Vega (Strokers), Adire Brahma, Crossfire, RF Power HX2, Lightning Audio and several others too... not cheap, but can take a lot of power.
Swez
PS Poke around on the zeb audion site and see if any of the above mentioned subs catch you attention.
jmach on 08/23/2003 09:47:56
thanks for all the help.
As for the box they charge me $350. It came as a package with all the gear and the install.
Swez on 08/23/2003 16:43:00
OK, maybe a good box, but this system will not get you to your final goals of High SPL and good SQ.
Am wondering if you can get a 2nd amp to match what you have and buy a pair of subs. One sub/one amp x 2. This will save you some loses on the sale of what you have now. If you can get enough cash from the sale of the enclosure and woofers to pay for a 2nd amp, can you swing about $800.00 (USD) for the 2 subs and a box?
Also, do you have any fiends that have wood working tools and some experience to help you fabricate a good enclosure? If yes, a solid enclosure will only cost ~ $65-80.00 (CAN) If you buy one, figure at least double that amount, if not more.
Have a look at these:
http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/woofers/highExcursion.html
AW1200Q 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 4ohm voice coils - 700 watts RMS $ 185.99 each.
http://www.splusa.net/products_woofers_splw.html
SPLW-12 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 1ohm voice coils - 1100 watts RMS $ 189.99
http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/DigitalAudio/DA_UE.htm 1DA-DAW1205 12 2 4 $209.99 ea.
NOTE: Going to be a challenge coming up with subs that net 2 ohms for your amp, and still take close to 800 RMS or higher per sub. Most in this power range are dual 2 ohm, 6 ohm versions and no 2 ohm single voice coils I know about. This power range gets pretty pricey so you may have to go with 1 sub & amp initially, then add a 2nd matching set as you can swing it.
Comment?
Swez
jmach on 09/7/2003 14:49:24
Hi Swez,
just to update you on what's happening here. I've decided to hold off on everything. Because I just install 2 other amps. One kenwood 2 channel RMS 40 X 2 for the back speakers and Phoenix gold R804 RMS 75 X 4 for the 2 sets of components up front. After doing all this there was no room left anymore amps. For now everything was installed on the back of the rear seats. The amps fit just perfectly. Any larger would not be possible. I have looked into the MTX Thunder 9500 subs which are better than the JL W7. I can get them for around $700 Cdn ea from an authorized dealer here. But I won't get them just yet as I don't know how I'm going to fit bigger amps without doing custom moulds for them in the trunk.
The other thing I wanted to ask you was, do I need to upgrade my alternator for the time being. The total current draw is 160 amp based on all the amp fuses total. And also I have an 80 amp fuse in the inline at the battery using a 4 guage power wire. What is the biggest fuse that this wire can handle without starting a fire?
thanks for all your suggestions and help.
ttocs on 09/7/2003 15:51:28
you could try taking some space from the speakers to get a little more punch as well. Try putting a brick in the box temporarily and see what happens. By taking volume from the speakers you should get a little higher tuning. If it works you can screw some extra wood in the box. if it doesn't work take the brick/wood out...
Swez on 09/7/2003 19:07:21
Yep... that works... makes the box smaller for more punch...
ALT... if your lights are not dimming badly on bass hists with all those extra amplifiers... not to worry. A larger CCA rated battery will help buffer current demands well to all amps. Figure a 800 CCA ampere rating or higher will do well.
That subs amp is a Class D amp so it will be very efficient with power in VS power output. Your PG Gold 4 channel may draw a bit more current than the sub amp at high SPL levels... but the 3rd amp is pretty small in power consumption compared to the others mentioned.
Finally, #4 gage wire may a tad too small if you are running all 3 amps of same. To chech if you need larger power/ground wiring here, run the system hard in a place you will not bother anyone for say 20 -30 minutes. Then feel the #4 power feed wire. If it feels warm or even hot... upgrade to #2 wire. If you do not notiice any overheating of the wire.... good enough. Check wire temps at both the fuse and the amp D-block.
Swez
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