I kind of have a two-part question.
From doing some reading now, I'm under the impression that the quality of the signal from a factory HU is not that great, mostly regarding clipping. If I'm not mis-informed, factory HUs begin to clip the signal well before full volume - is this correct? Because of this, the amplified signal is also clipped early and the result is only about 50% of the volume knob range on the HU can be used.
Working on this assumption, here is the setup I'm planning. Going to run a 2-Ch LOC from the front channels. The amp will be an Alpine PDX-4.100 - the amp will take channel 1 and 2 and run the signal to channels 3 and 4 (Left is 1 & 3; Right is 2 & 4). Speakers will be Polk db650 coaxials. I was going to use the HU fader to back down the signal going the front channels so that I could still use the full range of the HU volume knob with out running into clipping. I would use the amp gain adjustment to get the front-to-rear balance dialed in and the HU to balance the right-to-left direction.
Is this all appropriate, or is there a better way to approach the system? The HU is not a POS - it's the 6CD indash unit with Sirius built in - again, if I'm not mis-led, it's identical to the HU in the factory 290W Pioneer system (not that that system is real great).
I'm mainly looking for corroboration that what I'm planning will sound half way descent or, for other suggestions for setting it up, keeping the factory HU - that is the one stipulation.
Really appreciate any input. Thanks!
Replies (25)
jamesp on 04/12/2007 20:09:31
I used a 4 channel, adjustable LOC from my factory F-150 Ford head unit, bypassing the factory amp, To an RF 450.4 amp with a 4 channel(2 pr) RCA set. I wound up with Infinity Kappa 2 Ohm comps up front and RF 4 Ohm comps in the back. My fader then worked properly, and everything else did too.
I had no clipping problems at anywhere near half volume. I never verified that with a scope or freq. meter but it sounded very good. I did replace the factory HU with an Eclipse 5000 but mainly for mp3 player and file capabilities
swez on 04/12/2007 20:28:31
Ford uses a pretty robust stock HU. It will show signs of distortion at or above 50% on the volume control if we use too much EQ boost. (Bass especially)
This Alpine amp is pretty strong and there should not be any problems with running it in 4 channel mode with your Polks on the front stage and perhaps adding a good pair of aftermarket speakers, (6x8" Coaxials) in the back. This way, you need a 4 channel LOC, (2x2 is OK) and you'll have complete control over fade and balance too.
Are you planning to add a sub woofer at some point along the way?
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/12/2007 21:05:30
Yes on the sub - nothing huge - an 8" Rockford with a 2-ch A/B amp, bridged for 200w RMS - the sub is rated right at 200 RMS also - I think it will be ok. I plan on building a small sealed box for it - have the specs and all from RF already - went small due to space considerations. The amps are small on purpose too - need them hidden under the seats.
The other thing about the amp is that it has a swtich allowing 2 ch input to be distributed to all 4 channels output - do you think doing it this way I will lose substantial sound quality - as opposed to running all 4 channels to the amp from the HU? I am hoping to be able to set it up with the bass/treble flat on the HU.
My main concern is damaging effects from clipping, which I don't think will be a big issue - I rarely run things full volume. I'm more into improving quality over quantity - probably evident by the 8" sub. And for no good reason, I want to be able to use the full range on the volume knob and would simply like to get it set up so that even using the full range I (or nobody else....) will inadvertently damage things. Basically a conservative setup focusing on a modest budget and nice quality sound. Thanks for the help so far!
swez on 04/13/2007 06:22:33
Am with you on the goal and clarity of sound at a reasonable SPL level is plenty to enjoy personally w/o knocking the windows of the guy sutting next to you at a light.
Quote: "The other thing about the amp is that it has a swtich allowing 2 ch input to be distributed to all 4 channels output - do you think doing it this way I will lose substantial sound quality - as opposed to running all 4 channels to the amp from the HU? I am hoping to be able to set it up with the bass/treble flat on the HU."
This is the newest series from Alpine and I don't know a lot about it just yet. However from what have gathered, this amp is a dual purpose design that can run 4 full range speakers very well, (100 Wrms x 4) or a pair of modest subs. (200 Wrms x 2) It can also be used in 2 channel mode for plenty of clean power to Component speaker as well.
This amp does not have preamp outs to power your sub amp in daisy chain fashion. But if your HU has a 4 channel LOC, the rear channel LOC could be split to power both the rear channels of your Alpine and sub amp. All the LOC's do is convert high signal speaker voltages to RCA line levels that allow one to use RCA's all the way around and get the sound quality possible. ("Y" type patch cables)
Or, if your sub amp has preout RCA's, these can be use to feed the rear channels of the Alpine amp as well.
A 3rd option, add an EQ/Linedriver like Audiobahn's AEQ6/7 series and you only need a 2 channel LOC off the HU. The AEQ splits up a 2 channel input and gives 6 channel outputs for Front/Rear & Sub amps. There is a line driver to boost signal voltage to each amp channel, Variable EQ pots, a Master Volume control, separate sub control and fader from front to rear speakers. That would be a best case scenario and you would have a 1/2 din dash mounted EQ to contol everything at oyur finger tips. (Have done a truck in this way and the customer loved the setup flexibilty and features)
What say you on this last option?
Swez
cplkittle on 04/13/2007 07:01:49
Looks like everything has been covered for the most part, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
Clipping at half volume on this model surprises me. I would definitely recommend the 4 channel LOC in your case. Not so much for the full fade and balance, but for the fact that you are using a modestly powered amplifier. If you split the signal, either by using a set of RCA 'Y' adapters or using the 2channel / 4 channel switch, you cut the voltage in half. I honestly do not know the voltage on the RCA end of a LOC connected to a factory radio. Let's assume it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 volts. 2 volts is a little below average for most aftermarket HU RCA outputs. If you split the signal you are only giving each channel 1 volt. The amplifier has to work twice as hard to produce the same volume at this point, thus lowering what we refer to as headroom.
While this would be fine on the factory speakers, some aftermarket speakers might not give you exactly what you are looking for. If an improvement of 25% is all you gain for your time and money in this project, is that worth it to you? I'm not saying this will not work, and you may be perfectly happy with the results with a 2 channel LOC, but using a 4 channel would double the volume compared to splitting the signal at the same gain, and at higher volumes would cut the THD (Total harmonic distortion) by half.
Swez's suggestion of the AEQ6/7 would also alleviate this problem since it has a line driver.
Personally, I would rather have all the controlls (treble, bass, fade, balance) on the radio. The only suggestion I would make on setting up the radio is to set the gain on the amplifier either with a multimeter, or with the bass and treble turned all the way up on the radio. If you are looking for the safest way to set this up without any probability of damaging the speakers, max out the treble and bass on the HU, and crank it up a bit. Now set the amp gain just below the level of distortion. If the gain is set with the eq flat, adjustments to the EQ after the fact would give you unknown results.
onebluemcm on 04/13/2007 10:30:23
I like the idea of the EQ/Linedriver - that would help me set it up and tune it much better, no doubt. I am kind of at the end of my budget for this build - for now anyway - and I'm not sure where I would put the EQ. For what it's worth, I'm trying not to lose and interior room - I plan on removing the stupid little jumper seats in the back and in place of one, I will put the sub - so that will be an equal swap for space and I might even gain some by removing the other seat.
I hadn't thought about the consequences of splitting the signal from the LOC - the way the amp takes the 1/2 Ch signal and distributes it to the 3/4 Ch for 4-channel output, I'm not sure that there would be a loss in voltage - I don't know how the amp redistributes the signal, but it's all internal. It's like I am trying to figure out the trade-offs (and please correct me if I'm wrong): On one hand, if I use a 4-ch LOC, I get true 4-ch signal to the amp, no loss in voltage, and all controls at the HU BUT I won't be able to use full range of the HU volume knob. On the other hand, if I use a 2-ch LOC I can use the HU fader to back the signal down a bit allowing me full range of the volume knob on the HU BUT I might lose voltage in the signal going to the amp, I'm really only getting 2-ch signal in total (distributed to 4 speakers) and the front-rear balance adjustment is now on the amp. Does this make sense? If I'm wrong, let me hear it - definetly want to understand this fully.
If I go with a 4-ch LOC, can you adjust gain settings at the amp to allow full range use of the HU volume knob? I didn't think this would work because if the HU starts to send a clipped signal at, lets say, 60% Vol for example, then no matter what the amp gain settings, it would still receive a clipped signal at anything over 60% (just and example). That's why I though I should got 2-ch LOC and back off the outgoing signal using the HU fader.
If you guys have the time or interest, the Alpine website has the entire manual for the amp (PDX-4.100) in PDF form over there.
jamesp on 04/13/2007 12:36:51
Quote:
If I go with a 4-ch LOC, can you adjust gain settings at the amp to allow full range use of the HU volume knob?
Im new at this but...when I had my stock head unit and added the RF amps, I was able to dial the gain controls back enough to use the full travel of the volume control. This is what I would do in your situation. I am willing to bet that after you get everything installed and become comfortable with your system you will gradually adjust the gains up to thier proper levels. Your concern with damaging new components by accidentally inducing clipping is understandable but wil hopefully be unfounded since you seem to be concerned with sound quality and will probably not have sustained volume levels that will destroy your stuff. If you accidentally over rotate the volume knob momentarily nothing should break. I cant physically tolerate the volume of my system at levels well above 1/2 volume that are also below where I believe any clipping was taking place. With the quality of the amp you have, maybe you will feel the same way...It may well be a non- issue..Just play it safe as you learn the boundries of your new setup. Good luck.
swez on 04/13/2007 13:38:19
Well said JamesP and I agree that much of the uncertainties mentioned will fall into place after the install is done and initial tweaking too.
The AEQ6 mentioned is very compact and only needs 1/2 din space in or under the dash. It does a lot of very good things for a system and they used to sell off e-bay for about $60.00. Oh, I forgot to mention that this model has a dual input feature. You can run the HU and CD player on its mains and add an MP3, DVD or I-Pod as Aux. This Aux circuit has gain controls as well. (Allows one to get a clean signal from even low output devices if used)
A word about LOC's. Most quality LOC's have internal trim pots to adjust signal levels passed to the amps. A typical factory HU can supply between 8-13 volts at full output. This is way too high for most aftermarket amps. So, the LOC knocks down the voltage to a more usable range for the amps they feed. (2-4 volts is plenty good for most amps on the market today)
All that said, once you have installed your gear, we'll help you dial in the rest as needed. It's good you have a stock Ford system. These HU's are easy to remove and there's plenty of space in the pocket to stuff wires and other bulky components.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/13/2007 14:03:45
usually, if you are using an LOC with a factory unit, you can get most of the volume control without audible distortion...90%.
The main issue is if you get too much bass. Then the units usually have a circuit that decreases bass..i.e. you won't get any more bass beyond a certain point.
This is why I recommend a line driver,etc. The main reason to replace the factory unit is features. Crossovers, eq, subwoofer control, all that good stuff. That, and if you bought a used car, that unit could be 6-8 yrs old...time to replace it anyway.
onebluemcm on 04/13/2007 15:26:21
This truck was a special order - waited 8 weeks for it - and well worth it. I purposefully ordered it w/o the Ford Audiophile or Tremor systems b/c I wanted the flexibility of the 6CD in-dash HU alone - I had heard that the Audiophile and Tremor systems are as-is, you can't really modify them much at all, or it's difficult to do. So, I figured, I'd make sure it was the next best HU I could get and set it up the way I wanted it. So, it looks like it might work out. Also, I got it with the Sirius in the HU and it also has an input jack in the dash for an MP3 player or the like - so it's all there - just needed upgraded speakers, a sub and some amplification - that's where I, and you all, some in!!
I did just yank the HU today, just to see what the connectors were like and yes, there is a good bit of room back there for my LOC. It doesn't have a connector that I wanted - it would have had a remote turn-on line for the subs - so that is another issue I need to work out.
So, to the final comment by MrBrownstone (thanks, very much) - if I go with a 4-ch LOC, it should allow me to use nearly most of the range of the volume knob before distortion?
And one more question - more regarding the Alpine amp - I had read that it might have circuitry that may actually modulate the signal to reduce clipping - is this possible in an amp? Alpine, on their website, is not very explicit about what the amp can to with the input signal, but it seems like it's supposed to have some new feature that could possibly do that. I think i'm just too ignorant of the technology or terminology - I'm just now learning about all this stuff - some of you guys with a few years experience might be able to figure our what they mean.
jamesp on 04/13/2007 21:00:13
My daughter has a Ford Escape with 6 disc in dash head unit. Do not put a cleaning disc in it. Hers has one stuck in it so it is inoperable. It will play mp3 CD's but it is very picky about disc quality or thickness. We have to use the expensive CDR's in it (before it tore up.
The factory 6 disc changer that is in my truck will not play mp3 files but played any disc and now my new Eclipse head unit seems to play anything you put in it
I am going to try and take her head unit apart and fix it...warranty will not cover it.
swez on 04/13/2007 21:33:19
It sounds like this Alpine amp has a comparitor circuit that reads both the input signal and output signal and automatically compares the 2 simultanously for variations other than just amplitude.
If this is the case, an excellent anti-clipping feature too! (These circuits can detect signal degradation and distortions before it is amplified and delivered to your speakers) More or less, a self-correcting distortion blocking circuit. Very good feature there.
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 08:43:13
That sounds really cool - see, I had read the "comparitor circuit" thing, but I didn't really understand what it did. I hate admitting I made an uneducated purchase but my main driving force for getting this amp was it's size, and so long as I didn't see any negative feedback about it, I figured I couldn't go wrong. Well, having a feature like this seems to be nicely fitted for HU signals that might be "sub-optimal".
So, last night I was in the garage with the truck for a good hour removing the bed rail guards from the factory to prep it for a bed cap. It took a while to get them off b/c they used some super sticky double-sided tape. Anyway, I was able to play a few CDs with full-range sound - being that I was in the bed working on the rails, I ran it with the doors open and the volume up pretty loud - nearly all the way, about 85%-95% the whole time - figured I'd try to see when the HU began to put out a distorted signal. Kept Bass and Treble flat. Now, I've read that the human ear is really bad at picking up subtle distortion, particularly at high volume - so, I tried to keep a distance from it thinking maybe I would hear distortion better if I wasn't right inside with it a high volume. Anyway, after a long listening session, I think I only heard distortion with the --full factory set-up-- at 100% volume; back it off just 2-clicks and it was loud but souded pretty good to me. At full Vol, it was mainly the bass that seemed to be bad.
Is there anything wrong with this assessment? Please be critical - I have been musically oriented all my life and though not an expert, I think I have a good ear for quality sound and i tried to listen to a variety of music with it the way I described. But eventhough I did this little "experiment", I'm not sure it is a valid or legit way to assess a system for distortion.
jamesp on 04/14/2007 11:27:58
That is about what I saw with my factory "premium" amplified system. Even the junk stock speakers when new sounded alright for the time.
If those Polk coaxials are good for 60 watts rms or so...you should not have any problems.
To remove parts adhered with double stick monofiliment fishing line works good but braided dacron or micron line wrapped around both hands and slipped between the part and body will cut through it using a sawing motion in seconds. If you need to remove any adhesive residue use a deliminine cleaner (citrus oil conc.) and it will come off easily .
swez on 04/14/2007 14:39:28
You do have a good set of ears. Yes, I have preached this one many times.... open the doors and step back behind the vehicle some 15-20 feet and listen for clarity and distortion issues that pop up.
We often cannot hear them well inside the cabin as the ears don't take well to a steady 110dB of SPL or more for very long. We lose hearing acquity in that setting and have to get far enough away to really figure out whats going on. This is best done in an open area like a large parking lot, away from residential areas. (A school lot, shopping mall or an empty Church parking lot) This is where the best tuning and tweaking can be done.
I can tell you are a pretty intelligent fellow and perhaps a bit of a perfectionist too? Well, that makes it all the easier to guide you along. However, try not to over-think issues that are not even there yet. It'll drive ya nutz. That stock HU is one of the better designed ones out there. The Premium version is even a bit better. So, you have a good platform to build off of already. Keep at it and you'll be very pleased with the end results.
Swez
PS Jimmy... great tip on the improv hand saw. I love when guys come up with cheap, sensible solutions to lifes' many sticky issues. SMILE
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 17:18:10
Thanks for the compliments - you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the perfectionist idea - I freely admit that it might be more of a fault.
I think what I will do id pick up a 4-ch LOC and go that route - seems reasonable that it will work out allwing me to use most of the volume range on the HU (if I can even tollerate it up high).
The amp came in today - man, I think I'll be happy with it - for a Ranger, it fits perfectly under the drivers seat and has plenty of room to do the wiring. The small Profile amp I have for the sub also fits very nicely under the passenger seat.
Jim - FYI, the bed rail caps came off with "persuasive" pulling. I was puckered up a bit for fear of damaging the paint - the truck was built around mid-March - probably around the 13th or so - with new paint, I was a bit worried - probably unfounded anyway. The remainder of the tape rolled off by hand, just took time. I did use a bit of Goo Gone to get really thin residue off that we couldn't just rub off. I will definetly keep the dacron "hand saw" idea in mind. These caps had sort of an "L" shaped profile where they fitted along the inside of the rail - not sure the dacron line thing would have worked on this one....
So, with great gratitude, I think I have all of my ducks in a row. On a personal note, I am 3 weeks away from a board certification exam - I'm a vet in a radiology residency - so I will probably drop this thread for the time being so I can study. But, I will let you all know how things go with the install and will ask more questions as they arise - the install just won't happen for a few weeks. Seems like my attempt at a deliberate, thought out plan is working OK.
Swez - where 'bouts are you in the Motor City? I grew up up near Pontiac - we may even be moving back this fall, there is a big vet practice up near Pontiac that my wife is actually coming over to interview with next week. Though it's a long way off and our plans are nearly 100% uncertain, I would gladly show you the system once it's installed, if we move back that way. You never know - it's a small world....
jamesp on 04/14/2007 18:20:17
Im taking a certification exam myself on May 8 in Atlanta. I brought home about 50 lbs of study material this weekend and havent cracked a book yet. Im taking the Georgia Wastewater Lab Analyist Certification Exam. Im hoping that it will all come back to me from my science degree that I got almost 30 years ago.lol I already have my Water License so maybe Ill be OK....
Vet school was always my first choice but after a D in organic chemistry I was humbled into a less demanding undergraduate curriculum...
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 22:31:09
That's cool about your certification - I haven't excluded doing something entirely different down the road. One thing about radiology is that everything is quickly becoming digital - so one day, I might be able to work right out of the house, which could easily facilitate me trying out something different, career wise.
I hear a lot of people say vet school was their first choice but it was grades that made the decision. I still do not know why they make it so hard to get in - frankly, if they had less of the smarty-pants, know-it-all people and more of the down to earth, well-rounded type, we would all be better off. I'm just saying, it's still going on with admissions and I don't agree with it - grades are not the best "first screen" for the applicants.
As for studying - I haven't had to take a "standardized" test is years either and the hardest part had been learning how to study all over again! And, I'm too easily distracted, thus this thread!!!
swez on 04/15/2007 10:47:35
Yep, the bar is raised to unrealistic levels to thin out all but the choosen few. The less who can make it, the more $$$ there is available to those who can pass muster. That's the root of the issue.
I live near Dearborn and about 45 mins south of Pontiac. Am not 100% certain on this, but believe that Michigan State has one of the best Vet schools in the Midwest. They focus on Ag and sciences well too. Otherwise, if one is interested in human medicine, U of M is one of the best in the country. (Ann Arbor, MI and other off site campuses too)
Grades are important, but frankly that's not the last word in the real world. Have you ever run into a very bright student that could not think outside the box as needed or had a personality of a dead carp? I sure have and avoid them like the plague. They are intelligent and know who to gather knowledge in books and other media very well.
But, the applied know-how guy is often my 1st choice. He knows his trade inside and out and a raft of books cannot replace hands on experience and common sense for most professionals. An advanced degree is needed in many technical areas and that's fine. However, not all job skills come out of the University textbooks and labs. In many cases, education requirements are very over-rated and people skills, experience and a desire to be the best one can be, are very desirable qualities.
FYI: MI's economy is very tight now and we have not rebounded like other parts of the country. It's been a bear (bare) market for jobs and we are losing people to other states as job growth remains iffy.
Oakland County is the boom town growth area in MI now. That's where the best job opportunities and pay scales are very good. Taxes are very high there as well. Mull over your options before taking the big plunge to MI. It's a great state in many respects. But we have fallen on very difficult times for the past 5 years and we're not out of the woods yet either. Yes, there are some good things on the horizon, but it may take a decade to recapture our once booming economy.
Swez
PS Property values in many parts of the Tri-County area are at all time lows. The banks have a glut of repo homes and even more in receivership. A good number of people have moved out of state, abandoned their homes back to the banks and have elected to start over elsewhere. It's a buyers' market to be sure... if one can generate enough cash flow to make the monthly nut, it's a good time to buy in MI.
onebluemcm on 04/15/2007 13:46:55
I had heard that the economy has seen better times down that way. And, with all the repo homes, people leaving etc, yes, I bet it is a buyser market BUT....my understanding is that the banks are as tight as ever with financing etc because of all the mess. I know Oakland Co. has always been sort of the "money center" in the metro area and the taxes up that way make it really hard to facilitate moving back. We have been looking around, just browsing really, at real estate in Livingston and Macomb Counties as well - would make more of a drive to get to the Pontiac area - I guess in the end, if we end up coming back, we;ll have to weight the pros and cons of living in Oakland vs not.
Until recently, when we started looking back that way, I hadn't realized how much the economy had frozen up around there. I hear Detroit is back to the "politics" that were rampant in the 80s as well. It seemed like, for a while, that Detroit was really on a substantial up-swing. I could be mis-informed about the current state of things, being so peripheral to the area now.
I love Michigan though - my first choice would be to move out west for a few years, have always wanted to do that for at least a few years; if that doesn't work out though, MI is our second choice. The vet school at MSU might even hire us back as staff vets up there - that would be kid of cool too. We lots of options I guess.
Hope things stay on the up-and-up for you and your business. Dearborn is a pretty stable place, economy wise, I would think.
swez on 04/15/2007 17:42:30
Yes, MI did have a nice boom in the 90's and that came to screeching hault before 9/11 and has lasted since 2001 or so. The biggest hurdle in this state is politics and automotive issues.
I live in Wayne County and things are brutal. Even though taxes in this small town of ~50,000 is one of the lower zones, we pay big taxes on consumables like gas, alcohol, cigaretts and other like items. Gas is now the biggest concern. We are hovering close to $2.80 a gallon and it's just past Easter. This price hike is coming early and $3.00 a gallon is the predicted target by Memorial Day through Labor Day. Buy gas on Mon, Tues or Wed. By Thursday, hikes come and rise over the weekend and then fall back again. (Profit taking)
I have a friend in Livingston Co and just came from there. She bought a nice Condo 2.5 years ago, (New) and it has depreciated some 25% already. (~$60,000 depreciation) That's a big hit for a nice Lake side community.
Well, am not ranting about it as I to love MI and have spent most of my life here. But as far back as I can remember, we have never had such a deep recession and have it last so long. If you are a degreed professional, or a couple with marketable skills, it will work well if there's a demand for that skill. (Do very well here) The largest growing sectors are services, law enforcement and health care. Small niche business can do well in the right neighborhoods too. Outside of that, it's a tough lug nut to crack.
Research things well and see if things really add up in your sitiuation.
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/15/2007 22:22:57
This interview my wife has coming up is exactly that - research. I hear you about taxation and gasoline - where we are in NY (Ithaca - mid-state area) it's totally REDICULOUS!!! We've been flirting with the $3.00/gal price point for the last few weeks. It's horrible - and most of it is town or county taxes. Drive 10 miles, or less sometimes, and it's easily 10-15 cents per gallon cheaper. The entire state is rediculous with taxes - 8% sales tax across the board. And it is no better living that any other place we've been and we've been in MI, Indiana, and Virginia in the last 4 years. The way the last 2 years here have been, I see it easily reaching $3.50, maybe even $4.00 per gallon here this summer. It's crazy and anywhere but here will be an improvement.
swez on 04/16/2007 00:01:17
Compared to New York State, cost of living is cheaper to be sure in MI. We topped out at just over $3.00 a gallon for gas last summer and we are bracing for the same or a tad lower this summer driving season. The state tax on goods is only 6% here and state payroll is ~2%. So, since you are used to higher, you earning dollars will go a bit further in MI. Hotel taxes are a lot higher, but managable.
Our summers are warm and sometimes a bit sticky too, but manageble. Winters here have been on the mild side the past few years and we only have pockets that see the heavy lake effect snows.
If you happen to like the outdoors, we have lots of lakes and rivers to enjoy, some wonderful golf sites and skiing in the winter as one goes north.
The big happenings are in Oakland Co and that's where the action is job wise. Livingston Co is also very nice if you don't mind a more rural setting and a little more commute time. Most of the major newspapapers are on the Internet, so you can get a good picture of what's happening in specific areas.
Detroit News
Detroit Freepress
Oakland Press (I think that's the majors)
Keep in touch as needed,
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/16/2007 08:51:16
Thanks - will do. And certainly, I will post back once i get my install under way - I have nearly everything I need to do the job, now just need some time. Appreciate it greatly.
swez on 04/16/2007 12:16:01
10-4 Oneblue, we'll be here and ready to guide you.
Swez
From doing some reading now, I'm under the impression that the quality of the signal from a factory HU is not that great, mostly regarding clipping. If I'm not mis-informed, factory HUs begin to clip the signal well before full volume - is this correct? Because of this, the amplified signal is also clipped early and the result is only about 50% of the volume knob range on the HU can be used.
Working on this assumption, here is the setup I'm planning. Going to run a 2-Ch LOC from the front channels. The amp will be an Alpine PDX-4.100 - the amp will take channel 1 and 2 and run the signal to channels 3 and 4 (Left is 1 & 3; Right is 2 & 4). Speakers will be Polk db650 coaxials. I was going to use the HU fader to back down the signal going the front channels so that I could still use the full range of the HU volume knob with out running into clipping. I would use the amp gain adjustment to get the front-to-rear balance dialed in and the HU to balance the right-to-left direction.
Is this all appropriate, or is there a better way to approach the system? The HU is not a POS - it's the 6CD indash unit with Sirius built in - again, if I'm not mis-led, it's identical to the HU in the factory 290W Pioneer system (not that that system is real great).
I'm mainly looking for corroboration that what I'm planning will sound half way descent or, for other suggestions for setting it up, keeping the factory HU - that is the one stipulation.
Really appreciate any input. Thanks!
Replies (25)
jamesp on 04/12/2007 20:09:31
I used a 4 channel, adjustable LOC from my factory F-150 Ford head unit, bypassing the factory amp, To an RF 450.4 amp with a 4 channel(2 pr) RCA set. I wound up with Infinity Kappa 2 Ohm comps up front and RF 4 Ohm comps in the back. My fader then worked properly, and everything else did too.
I had no clipping problems at anywhere near half volume. I never verified that with a scope or freq. meter but it sounded very good. I did replace the factory HU with an Eclipse 5000 but mainly for mp3 player and file capabilities
swez on 04/12/2007 20:28:31
Ford uses a pretty robust stock HU. It will show signs of distortion at or above 50% on the volume control if we use too much EQ boost. (Bass especially)
This Alpine amp is pretty strong and there should not be any problems with running it in 4 channel mode with your Polks on the front stage and perhaps adding a good pair of aftermarket speakers, (6x8" Coaxials) in the back. This way, you need a 4 channel LOC, (2x2 is OK) and you'll have complete control over fade and balance too.
Are you planning to add a sub woofer at some point along the way?
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/12/2007 21:05:30
Yes on the sub - nothing huge - an 8" Rockford with a 2-ch A/B amp, bridged for 200w RMS - the sub is rated right at 200 RMS also - I think it will be ok. I plan on building a small sealed box for it - have the specs and all from RF already - went small due to space considerations. The amps are small on purpose too - need them hidden under the seats.
The other thing about the amp is that it has a swtich allowing 2 ch input to be distributed to all 4 channels output - do you think doing it this way I will lose substantial sound quality - as opposed to running all 4 channels to the amp from the HU? I am hoping to be able to set it up with the bass/treble flat on the HU.
My main concern is damaging effects from clipping, which I don't think will be a big issue - I rarely run things full volume. I'm more into improving quality over quantity - probably evident by the 8" sub. And for no good reason, I want to be able to use the full range on the volume knob and would simply like to get it set up so that even using the full range I (or nobody else....) will inadvertently damage things. Basically a conservative setup focusing on a modest budget and nice quality sound. Thanks for the help so far!
swez on 04/13/2007 06:22:33
Am with you on the goal and clarity of sound at a reasonable SPL level is plenty to enjoy personally w/o knocking the windows of the guy sutting next to you at a light.
Quote: "The other thing about the amp is that it has a swtich allowing 2 ch input to be distributed to all 4 channels output - do you think doing it this way I will lose substantial sound quality - as opposed to running all 4 channels to the amp from the HU? I am hoping to be able to set it up with the bass/treble flat on the HU."
This is the newest series from Alpine and I don't know a lot about it just yet. However from what have gathered, this amp is a dual purpose design that can run 4 full range speakers very well, (100 Wrms x 4) or a pair of modest subs. (200 Wrms x 2) It can also be used in 2 channel mode for plenty of clean power to Component speaker as well.
This amp does not have preamp outs to power your sub amp in daisy chain fashion. But if your HU has a 4 channel LOC, the rear channel LOC could be split to power both the rear channels of your Alpine and sub amp. All the LOC's do is convert high signal speaker voltages to RCA line levels that allow one to use RCA's all the way around and get the sound quality possible. ("Y" type patch cables)
Or, if your sub amp has preout RCA's, these can be use to feed the rear channels of the Alpine amp as well.
A 3rd option, add an EQ/Linedriver like Audiobahn's AEQ6/7 series and you only need a 2 channel LOC off the HU. The AEQ splits up a 2 channel input and gives 6 channel outputs for Front/Rear & Sub amps. There is a line driver to boost signal voltage to each amp channel, Variable EQ pots, a Master Volume control, separate sub control and fader from front to rear speakers. That would be a best case scenario and you would have a 1/2 din dash mounted EQ to contol everything at oyur finger tips. (Have done a truck in this way and the customer loved the setup flexibilty and features)
What say you on this last option?
Swez
cplkittle on 04/13/2007 07:01:49
Looks like everything has been covered for the most part, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
Clipping at half volume on this model surprises me. I would definitely recommend the 4 channel LOC in your case. Not so much for the full fade and balance, but for the fact that you are using a modestly powered amplifier. If you split the signal, either by using a set of RCA 'Y' adapters or using the 2channel / 4 channel switch, you cut the voltage in half. I honestly do not know the voltage on the RCA end of a LOC connected to a factory radio. Let's assume it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 volts. 2 volts is a little below average for most aftermarket HU RCA outputs. If you split the signal you are only giving each channel 1 volt. The amplifier has to work twice as hard to produce the same volume at this point, thus lowering what we refer to as headroom.
While this would be fine on the factory speakers, some aftermarket speakers might not give you exactly what you are looking for. If an improvement of 25% is all you gain for your time and money in this project, is that worth it to you? I'm not saying this will not work, and you may be perfectly happy with the results with a 2 channel LOC, but using a 4 channel would double the volume compared to splitting the signal at the same gain, and at higher volumes would cut the THD (Total harmonic distortion) by half.
Swez's suggestion of the AEQ6/7 would also alleviate this problem since it has a line driver.
Personally, I would rather have all the controlls (treble, bass, fade, balance) on the radio. The only suggestion I would make on setting up the radio is to set the gain on the amplifier either with a multimeter, or with the bass and treble turned all the way up on the radio. If you are looking for the safest way to set this up without any probability of damaging the speakers, max out the treble and bass on the HU, and crank it up a bit. Now set the amp gain just below the level of distortion. If the gain is set with the eq flat, adjustments to the EQ after the fact would give you unknown results.
onebluemcm on 04/13/2007 10:30:23
I like the idea of the EQ/Linedriver - that would help me set it up and tune it much better, no doubt. I am kind of at the end of my budget for this build - for now anyway - and I'm not sure where I would put the EQ. For what it's worth, I'm trying not to lose and interior room - I plan on removing the stupid little jumper seats in the back and in place of one, I will put the sub - so that will be an equal swap for space and I might even gain some by removing the other seat.
I hadn't thought about the consequences of splitting the signal from the LOC - the way the amp takes the 1/2 Ch signal and distributes it to the 3/4 Ch for 4-channel output, I'm not sure that there would be a loss in voltage - I don't know how the amp redistributes the signal, but it's all internal. It's like I am trying to figure out the trade-offs (and please correct me if I'm wrong): On one hand, if I use a 4-ch LOC, I get true 4-ch signal to the amp, no loss in voltage, and all controls at the HU BUT I won't be able to use full range of the HU volume knob. On the other hand, if I use a 2-ch LOC I can use the HU fader to back the signal down a bit allowing me full range of the volume knob on the HU BUT I might lose voltage in the signal going to the amp, I'm really only getting 2-ch signal in total (distributed to 4 speakers) and the front-rear balance adjustment is now on the amp. Does this make sense? If I'm wrong, let me hear it - definetly want to understand this fully.
If I go with a 4-ch LOC, can you adjust gain settings at the amp to allow full range use of the HU volume knob? I didn't think this would work because if the HU starts to send a clipped signal at, lets say, 60% Vol for example, then no matter what the amp gain settings, it would still receive a clipped signal at anything over 60% (just and example). That's why I though I should got 2-ch LOC and back off the outgoing signal using the HU fader.
If you guys have the time or interest, the Alpine website has the entire manual for the amp (PDX-4.100) in PDF form over there.
jamesp on 04/13/2007 12:36:51
Quote:
If I go with a 4-ch LOC, can you adjust gain settings at the amp to allow full range use of the HU volume knob?
Im new at this but...when I had my stock head unit and added the RF amps, I was able to dial the gain controls back enough to use the full travel of the volume control. This is what I would do in your situation. I am willing to bet that after you get everything installed and become comfortable with your system you will gradually adjust the gains up to thier proper levels. Your concern with damaging new components by accidentally inducing clipping is understandable but wil hopefully be unfounded since you seem to be concerned with sound quality and will probably not have sustained volume levels that will destroy your stuff. If you accidentally over rotate the volume knob momentarily nothing should break. I cant physically tolerate the volume of my system at levels well above 1/2 volume that are also below where I believe any clipping was taking place. With the quality of the amp you have, maybe you will feel the same way...It may well be a non- issue..Just play it safe as you learn the boundries of your new setup. Good luck.
swez on 04/13/2007 13:38:19
Well said JamesP and I agree that much of the uncertainties mentioned will fall into place after the install is done and initial tweaking too.
The AEQ6 mentioned is very compact and only needs 1/2 din space in or under the dash. It does a lot of very good things for a system and they used to sell off e-bay for about $60.00. Oh, I forgot to mention that this model has a dual input feature. You can run the HU and CD player on its mains and add an MP3, DVD or I-Pod as Aux. This Aux circuit has gain controls as well. (Allows one to get a clean signal from even low output devices if used)
A word about LOC's. Most quality LOC's have internal trim pots to adjust signal levels passed to the amps. A typical factory HU can supply between 8-13 volts at full output. This is way too high for most aftermarket amps. So, the LOC knocks down the voltage to a more usable range for the amps they feed. (2-4 volts is plenty good for most amps on the market today)
All that said, once you have installed your gear, we'll help you dial in the rest as needed. It's good you have a stock Ford system. These HU's are easy to remove and there's plenty of space in the pocket to stuff wires and other bulky components.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/13/2007 14:03:45
usually, if you are using an LOC with a factory unit, you can get most of the volume control without audible distortion...90%.
The main issue is if you get too much bass. Then the units usually have a circuit that decreases bass..i.e. you won't get any more bass beyond a certain point.
This is why I recommend a line driver,etc. The main reason to replace the factory unit is features. Crossovers, eq, subwoofer control, all that good stuff. That, and if you bought a used car, that unit could be 6-8 yrs old...time to replace it anyway.
onebluemcm on 04/13/2007 15:26:21
This truck was a special order - waited 8 weeks for it - and well worth it. I purposefully ordered it w/o the Ford Audiophile or Tremor systems b/c I wanted the flexibility of the 6CD in-dash HU alone - I had heard that the Audiophile and Tremor systems are as-is, you can't really modify them much at all, or it's difficult to do. So, I figured, I'd make sure it was the next best HU I could get and set it up the way I wanted it. So, it looks like it might work out. Also, I got it with the Sirius in the HU and it also has an input jack in the dash for an MP3 player or the like - so it's all there - just needed upgraded speakers, a sub and some amplification - that's where I, and you all, some in!!
I did just yank the HU today, just to see what the connectors were like and yes, there is a good bit of room back there for my LOC. It doesn't have a connector that I wanted - it would have had a remote turn-on line for the subs - so that is another issue I need to work out.
So, to the final comment by MrBrownstone (thanks, very much) - if I go with a 4-ch LOC, it should allow me to use nearly most of the range of the volume knob before distortion?
And one more question - more regarding the Alpine amp - I had read that it might have circuitry that may actually modulate the signal to reduce clipping - is this possible in an amp? Alpine, on their website, is not very explicit about what the amp can to with the input signal, but it seems like it's supposed to have some new feature that could possibly do that. I think i'm just too ignorant of the technology or terminology - I'm just now learning about all this stuff - some of you guys with a few years experience might be able to figure our what they mean.
jamesp on 04/13/2007 21:00:13
My daughter has a Ford Escape with 6 disc in dash head unit. Do not put a cleaning disc in it. Hers has one stuck in it so it is inoperable. It will play mp3 CD's but it is very picky about disc quality or thickness. We have to use the expensive CDR's in it (before it tore up.
The factory 6 disc changer that is in my truck will not play mp3 files but played any disc and now my new Eclipse head unit seems to play anything you put in it
I am going to try and take her head unit apart and fix it...warranty will not cover it.
swez on 04/13/2007 21:33:19
It sounds like this Alpine amp has a comparitor circuit that reads both the input signal and output signal and automatically compares the 2 simultanously for variations other than just amplitude.
If this is the case, an excellent anti-clipping feature too! (These circuits can detect signal degradation and distortions before it is amplified and delivered to your speakers) More or less, a self-correcting distortion blocking circuit. Very good feature there.
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 08:43:13
That sounds really cool - see, I had read the "comparitor circuit" thing, but I didn't really understand what it did. I hate admitting I made an uneducated purchase but my main driving force for getting this amp was it's size, and so long as I didn't see any negative feedback about it, I figured I couldn't go wrong. Well, having a feature like this seems to be nicely fitted for HU signals that might be "sub-optimal".
So, last night I was in the garage with the truck for a good hour removing the bed rail guards from the factory to prep it for a bed cap. It took a while to get them off b/c they used some super sticky double-sided tape. Anyway, I was able to play a few CDs with full-range sound - being that I was in the bed working on the rails, I ran it with the doors open and the volume up pretty loud - nearly all the way, about 85%-95% the whole time - figured I'd try to see when the HU began to put out a distorted signal. Kept Bass and Treble flat. Now, I've read that the human ear is really bad at picking up subtle distortion, particularly at high volume - so, I tried to keep a distance from it thinking maybe I would hear distortion better if I wasn't right inside with it a high volume. Anyway, after a long listening session, I think I only heard distortion with the --full factory set-up-- at 100% volume; back it off just 2-clicks and it was loud but souded pretty good to me. At full Vol, it was mainly the bass that seemed to be bad.
Is there anything wrong with this assessment? Please be critical - I have been musically oriented all my life and though not an expert, I think I have a good ear for quality sound and i tried to listen to a variety of music with it the way I described. But eventhough I did this little "experiment", I'm not sure it is a valid or legit way to assess a system for distortion.
jamesp on 04/14/2007 11:27:58
That is about what I saw with my factory "premium" amplified system. Even the junk stock speakers when new sounded alright for the time.
If those Polk coaxials are good for 60 watts rms or so...you should not have any problems.
To remove parts adhered with double stick monofiliment fishing line works good but braided dacron or micron line wrapped around both hands and slipped between the part and body will cut through it using a sawing motion in seconds. If you need to remove any adhesive residue use a deliminine cleaner (citrus oil conc.) and it will come off easily .
swez on 04/14/2007 14:39:28
You do have a good set of ears. Yes, I have preached this one many times.... open the doors and step back behind the vehicle some 15-20 feet and listen for clarity and distortion issues that pop up.
We often cannot hear them well inside the cabin as the ears don't take well to a steady 110dB of SPL or more for very long. We lose hearing acquity in that setting and have to get far enough away to really figure out whats going on. This is best done in an open area like a large parking lot, away from residential areas. (A school lot, shopping mall or an empty Church parking lot) This is where the best tuning and tweaking can be done.
I can tell you are a pretty intelligent fellow and perhaps a bit of a perfectionist too? Well, that makes it all the easier to guide you along. However, try not to over-think issues that are not even there yet. It'll drive ya nutz. That stock HU is one of the better designed ones out there. The Premium version is even a bit better. So, you have a good platform to build off of already. Keep at it and you'll be very pleased with the end results.
Swez
PS Jimmy... great tip on the improv hand saw. I love when guys come up with cheap, sensible solutions to lifes' many sticky issues. SMILE
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 17:18:10
Thanks for the compliments - you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the perfectionist idea - I freely admit that it might be more of a fault.
I think what I will do id pick up a 4-ch LOC and go that route - seems reasonable that it will work out allwing me to use most of the volume range on the HU (if I can even tollerate it up high).
The amp came in today - man, I think I'll be happy with it - for a Ranger, it fits perfectly under the drivers seat and has plenty of room to do the wiring. The small Profile amp I have for the sub also fits very nicely under the passenger seat.
Jim - FYI, the bed rail caps came off with "persuasive" pulling. I was puckered up a bit for fear of damaging the paint - the truck was built around mid-March - probably around the 13th or so - with new paint, I was a bit worried - probably unfounded anyway. The remainder of the tape rolled off by hand, just took time. I did use a bit of Goo Gone to get really thin residue off that we couldn't just rub off. I will definetly keep the dacron "hand saw" idea in mind. These caps had sort of an "L" shaped profile where they fitted along the inside of the rail - not sure the dacron line thing would have worked on this one....
So, with great gratitude, I think I have all of my ducks in a row. On a personal note, I am 3 weeks away from a board certification exam - I'm a vet in a radiology residency - so I will probably drop this thread for the time being so I can study. But, I will let you all know how things go with the install and will ask more questions as they arise - the install just won't happen for a few weeks. Seems like my attempt at a deliberate, thought out plan is working OK.
Swez - where 'bouts are you in the Motor City? I grew up up near Pontiac - we may even be moving back this fall, there is a big vet practice up near Pontiac that my wife is actually coming over to interview with next week. Though it's a long way off and our plans are nearly 100% uncertain, I would gladly show you the system once it's installed, if we move back that way. You never know - it's a small world....
jamesp on 04/14/2007 18:20:17
Im taking a certification exam myself on May 8 in Atlanta. I brought home about 50 lbs of study material this weekend and havent cracked a book yet. Im taking the Georgia Wastewater Lab Analyist Certification Exam. Im hoping that it will all come back to me from my science degree that I got almost 30 years ago.lol I already have my Water License so maybe Ill be OK....
Vet school was always my first choice but after a D in organic chemistry I was humbled into a less demanding undergraduate curriculum...
onebluemcm on 04/14/2007 22:31:09
That's cool about your certification - I haven't excluded doing something entirely different down the road. One thing about radiology is that everything is quickly becoming digital - so one day, I might be able to work right out of the house, which could easily facilitate me trying out something different, career wise.
I hear a lot of people say vet school was their first choice but it was grades that made the decision. I still do not know why they make it so hard to get in - frankly, if they had less of the smarty-pants, know-it-all people and more of the down to earth, well-rounded type, we would all be better off. I'm just saying, it's still going on with admissions and I don't agree with it - grades are not the best "first screen" for the applicants.
As for studying - I haven't had to take a "standardized" test is years either and the hardest part had been learning how to study all over again! And, I'm too easily distracted, thus this thread!!!
swez on 04/15/2007 10:47:35
Yep, the bar is raised to unrealistic levels to thin out all but the choosen few. The less who can make it, the more $$$ there is available to those who can pass muster. That's the root of the issue.
I live near Dearborn and about 45 mins south of Pontiac. Am not 100% certain on this, but believe that Michigan State has one of the best Vet schools in the Midwest. They focus on Ag and sciences well too. Otherwise, if one is interested in human medicine, U of M is one of the best in the country. (Ann Arbor, MI and other off site campuses too)
Grades are important, but frankly that's not the last word in the real world. Have you ever run into a very bright student that could not think outside the box as needed or had a personality of a dead carp? I sure have and avoid them like the plague. They are intelligent and know who to gather knowledge in books and other media very well.
But, the applied know-how guy is often my 1st choice. He knows his trade inside and out and a raft of books cannot replace hands on experience and common sense for most professionals. An advanced degree is needed in many technical areas and that's fine. However, not all job skills come out of the University textbooks and labs. In many cases, education requirements are very over-rated and people skills, experience and a desire to be the best one can be, are very desirable qualities.
FYI: MI's economy is very tight now and we have not rebounded like other parts of the country. It's been a bear (bare) market for jobs and we are losing people to other states as job growth remains iffy.
Oakland County is the boom town growth area in MI now. That's where the best job opportunities and pay scales are very good. Taxes are very high there as well. Mull over your options before taking the big plunge to MI. It's a great state in many respects. But we have fallen on very difficult times for the past 5 years and we're not out of the woods yet either. Yes, there are some good things on the horizon, but it may take a decade to recapture our once booming economy.
Swez
PS Property values in many parts of the Tri-County area are at all time lows. The banks have a glut of repo homes and even more in receivership. A good number of people have moved out of state, abandoned their homes back to the banks and have elected to start over elsewhere. It's a buyers' market to be sure... if one can generate enough cash flow to make the monthly nut, it's a good time to buy in MI.
onebluemcm on 04/15/2007 13:46:55
I had heard that the economy has seen better times down that way. And, with all the repo homes, people leaving etc, yes, I bet it is a buyser market BUT....my understanding is that the banks are as tight as ever with financing etc because of all the mess. I know Oakland Co. has always been sort of the "money center" in the metro area and the taxes up that way make it really hard to facilitate moving back. We have been looking around, just browsing really, at real estate in Livingston and Macomb Counties as well - would make more of a drive to get to the Pontiac area - I guess in the end, if we end up coming back, we;ll have to weight the pros and cons of living in Oakland vs not.
Until recently, when we started looking back that way, I hadn't realized how much the economy had frozen up around there. I hear Detroit is back to the "politics" that were rampant in the 80s as well. It seemed like, for a while, that Detroit was really on a substantial up-swing. I could be mis-informed about the current state of things, being so peripheral to the area now.
I love Michigan though - my first choice would be to move out west for a few years, have always wanted to do that for at least a few years; if that doesn't work out though, MI is our second choice. The vet school at MSU might even hire us back as staff vets up there - that would be kid of cool too. We lots of options I guess.
Hope things stay on the up-and-up for you and your business. Dearborn is a pretty stable place, economy wise, I would think.
swez on 04/15/2007 17:42:30
Yes, MI did have a nice boom in the 90's and that came to screeching hault before 9/11 and has lasted since 2001 or so. The biggest hurdle in this state is politics and automotive issues.
I live in Wayne County and things are brutal. Even though taxes in this small town of ~50,000 is one of the lower zones, we pay big taxes on consumables like gas, alcohol, cigaretts and other like items. Gas is now the biggest concern. We are hovering close to $2.80 a gallon and it's just past Easter. This price hike is coming early and $3.00 a gallon is the predicted target by Memorial Day through Labor Day. Buy gas on Mon, Tues or Wed. By Thursday, hikes come and rise over the weekend and then fall back again. (Profit taking)
I have a friend in Livingston Co and just came from there. She bought a nice Condo 2.5 years ago, (New) and it has depreciated some 25% already. (~$60,000 depreciation) That's a big hit for a nice Lake side community.
Well, am not ranting about it as I to love MI and have spent most of my life here. But as far back as I can remember, we have never had such a deep recession and have it last so long. If you are a degreed professional, or a couple with marketable skills, it will work well if there's a demand for that skill. (Do very well here) The largest growing sectors are services, law enforcement and health care. Small niche business can do well in the right neighborhoods too. Outside of that, it's a tough lug nut to crack.
Research things well and see if things really add up in your sitiuation.
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/15/2007 22:22:57
This interview my wife has coming up is exactly that - research. I hear you about taxation and gasoline - where we are in NY (Ithaca - mid-state area) it's totally REDICULOUS!!! We've been flirting with the $3.00/gal price point for the last few weeks. It's horrible - and most of it is town or county taxes. Drive 10 miles, or less sometimes, and it's easily 10-15 cents per gallon cheaper. The entire state is rediculous with taxes - 8% sales tax across the board. And it is no better living that any other place we've been and we've been in MI, Indiana, and Virginia in the last 4 years. The way the last 2 years here have been, I see it easily reaching $3.50, maybe even $4.00 per gallon here this summer. It's crazy and anywhere but here will be an improvement.
swez on 04/16/2007 00:01:17
Compared to New York State, cost of living is cheaper to be sure in MI. We topped out at just over $3.00 a gallon for gas last summer and we are bracing for the same or a tad lower this summer driving season. The state tax on goods is only 6% here and state payroll is ~2%. So, since you are used to higher, you earning dollars will go a bit further in MI. Hotel taxes are a lot higher, but managable.
Our summers are warm and sometimes a bit sticky too, but manageble. Winters here have been on the mild side the past few years and we only have pockets that see the heavy lake effect snows.
If you happen to like the outdoors, we have lots of lakes and rivers to enjoy, some wonderful golf sites and skiing in the winter as one goes north.
The big happenings are in Oakland Co and that's where the action is job wise. Livingston Co is also very nice if you don't mind a more rural setting and a little more commute time. Most of the major newspapapers are on the Internet, so you can get a good picture of what's happening in specific areas.
Detroit News
Detroit Freepress
Oakland Press (I think that's the majors)
Keep in touch as needed,
Swez
onebluemcm on 04/16/2007 08:51:16
Thanks - will do. And certainly, I will post back once i get my install under way - I have nearly everything I need to do the job, now just need some time. Appreciate it greatly.
swez on 04/16/2007 12:16:01
10-4 Oneblue, we'll be here and ready to guide you.
Swez
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