Been out of car audio for a good 10 years and just getting back into it. I have an 01 Navigator and I want to install amps while keeping the third row seat. Is it possible to install in the rear door? Amps to be used are Hifonics. A Zues zx1100 and zx4400. I know there arent a lot of Hifonics fans out there but they came from a friend on the cheap so i wnat to give em a try.
Replies (22)
swez on 04/8/2007 14:55:45
Door mounting may not be a good option for heat dissipation issues. Under the seats are one option or making a false floor amp rack might be a better option. (That keeps little and big feet off your amps and provides a stealthy install too)
Some use cooling fans to help pull off the extra heat as well when using semi-enclosed amp racks. If you really like to jam when out on your own, the fans will help keep the amps cool under high load conditions.
Actually, HiFonics has been a bit up and down the past few years since they were aacquired by Maxxsonics a while back. The older amps were pretty good for the price and features. We do recommend them on certain installs too.
Comments?
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/8/2007 17:00:18
Thanks for the reply! What I was thinking was sort of a flush mount into the back door panel with two fans, one in and one out to keep air flowing over the amps. My main concern is making sure the door is leak free/proof and of course getting power wire into the door and still being able to use it properly. Any insight there? What is a safe gauge wire for these amps?
swez on 04/8/2007 22:18:40
OK, I see what you are saying and yes, that does make sense. You may not even need fans either. I was thinking initially that you were talking about the rear passenger doors and that's not a good option.
The rear cargo doors on this Nav, are they dual side by side panel doors common in larger vans and such or a tailgate bottom and flip up hatch window on top?
As for wiring, I would probably go with 1/0 gage from the battery to the rear door area. From there, you can split the amps with a Distribution block using #4 power lines to each amp. Depending on the door design, that may be a bit more tricky. A picture of the rear door system would be most helpful if you can find one.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/8/2007 23:55:31
Its the gate/hatch combo. Both flip up to open. I have had the trim panel off and mounting looks like cake but running large gauge wire in looks like it will be rough. Wires now entering the door do so now at the top of the door.
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 00:00:07
......also would two runs of 4 gauge form the battery (one for each amp) be enough?
swez on 04/9/2007 10:37:18
You could do it that way if the sub amp is not fused greater than 80A's.
I suggested the 1/0 as a main feed as this is a long wire run from the engine compartment to the back of this truck. (25 feet of wire?) Using 1/0 gage wire insures little or no voltage drops in runs this long. Using a pair of #4's would probably drop the voltage by 1/2 a volt or more. (We try to avoid that whenever possible) That's why I mentioned the 1/0 as your main feeder, then split the 1/0 down to short runs of #4 so that minimal voltage drops are noted.
Yes, this will cost more to use the 1/0 and a D-block, but the performance is often worth the extra cost and effort.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 12:35:13
Cool. Thanks again for the insight. I think I will run it that way and then split to 4 before going into the door to make that part simpler. Whats a good online resource for door boots? Also there is a cap to be used on the amps if that makes any difference.
swez on 04/9/2007 14:02:10
Great! Am glad you see the connection here. It will insure your amps get the power they need and very low voltage losses are what you want here.
Cap for the sub amp might help a little with light dimming on long bass hits. They can help reduce that issue when using larger sub amps. However, that's not always the last word. Try it and see how well your Nav handles the new electrical upgrades. If the Cap does not cover it, we can explore other tried and true methods later.
Boots for the rear hatch? Good question Cath. Is there an electrical conduit between the body and top hatch for your tail lights and such there already? If yes and you can squeeze a pair of #4 lines in there, use it. As for grounding the rear hatch, you may need to add a grounding wire to insure noise free operation of the amps. The hinges and other hardware may not be sufficient grounding. You may have to add a grounding strap as well. That would be an easy step too. (Flat braided wire from an autoparts store whould do the job. (Use 2 of them)
Swez
I would suggest a secondary boot for your RCA's and speaker lines.
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 14:35:49
There is a boot there now for the rear wiper etc. I could probably get the power through it but will def need another for RCA and Speaker. I could probably get another stock boot but cutting the whole will suck because they are not round.
swez on 04/9/2007 16:53:06
You could start with a round hole and grind the hole into the proper shape with a dremel tool and a grinding stone or two. If no dremel is handy, just use a standard drill and chuck up your grinding wheels to approximate the hole size and shape desired. Here, a variable high speed drill would be in order. (Not a slow speed battery powered drill... it would take forever to grind) How's that sound to you?
Also, since you have the rear window wiper back there, install your RCA lines as far away as is possible from that motor. DC motors can emit RF noise when they operate and give you noise problems if the signal cables are too close to that motor. That would not be enjoyable huh? ;-)
Swez
cplkittle on 04/9/2007 18:53:33
If you can find a rubber cap for the wire it would be very helpful here as the cut end of a wire is difficult to push through a corrugated rubber boot. A little lotion or wire glide lubricant (KY will work too) will help out alot getting the wires through the boots.
If you have motor noise after the install, a layer of aluminum foil over the motor should help shield the noise. I would look for a nice set of RCAs to begin with though (double or triple shielded).
jamesp on 04/9/2007 19:08:01
It would sure make your job easier to install your amp(s) under the second row seat. All wiring runs would be shorter and easily run under the floor trim strips and carpet. The main power wire will only need to be about 9 or 10 feet long. If amping the front and rear channels, 12'-15' RCA sets will work great and maybe a longer pair for the sub. This wouldnt interfere with your 3 rd row seat and it could be taken out or left in as needed. You wouldnt have to worry about cooling your amps in this location as there is good circulation here
The logistics for running the large wire into a hinged door are not insurmountable but could be problematic.
Just something to think about....Good luck with your install.
swez on 04/9/2007 23:11:57
Agreed... but that suggestion seems to have gone by way of the Dodo bird for the moment. Let's see how Cath sees things and if we can sway him into a bit less work. If not, we'll just have to trust his eyes and sense of the task at hand.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 10:13:39
thanks again all for the input. I have decided to sell teh hifonics and use my MTX amps as they will fit under the second row seats. I thought it would be a sweet install to have them flush in the rear door and really fear wasnt an issue. What it comes down to is the weight. I woudl have to restrut the hatch etc to hold the extra weight and thats where its lost its appeal for me. The amps I will now use are two thunder 282's ( for front and rear) and a thunder 421d for the sub.
swez on 04/10/2007 11:36:05
Hum, that's a good thing to have thought of in advance. The extra weight of amps embedded in the rear hatch, would definitely add a strain to the hatch lift struts. (Not to mention the wiring issues and such as well) Good call for sure!
Do you have specs on the amps mentioned? Are they an older version of the MTX lineup? I searched for the sub amp mentioned and could not find much in specs and such on that item.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 12:01:56
They are a little older.
Thunder 282
Key Features
Amplifier Type Dual Channel
Bridgable Bridgable
RMS Power at 4 Ohms 45 W x 2
RMS Power at 2 Ohms 90 W x 2
Performance
Frequency Response 20 Hz - 20000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB
THD at Rated RMS Power 1 %
Crossover / Equalizer
Bass Boost Without Bass Boost
Low - Pass Frequency 85 Hz - 85 Hz
High - Pass Frequency 85 Hz - 85 Hz
Other Features
Input Voltage 12.5 volt
MOSFET Circuitry Yes
3 Way Ready Yes
Dimensions
Width 9.4 in.
Depth 9.75 in.
Height 2.1 in.
Thunder 421D
Amplifier Type Mono Channel
Bridgable Not Bridgable
RMS Power at 4 Ohms 150 W x 1
RMS Power at 2 Ohms 300 W x 1
Performance
Frequency Response 20 Hz - 20000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB
THD at Rated RMS Power 1 %
Crossover / Equalizer
Bass Boost With Bass Boost
Bass Boost Frequency 40 Hz
Low - Pass Frequency 40 Hz - 200 Hz
Other Features
Input Voltage 12.5 volt
MOSFET Circuitry Yes
3 Way Ready No
Dimensions
Width 9.4 in.
Depth 9.75 in.
Height 2.1 in.
swez on 04/10/2007 12:19:38
Cool... that tells a lot and this will be a modest SQL system when finished.
The sub amp is great for some good bump, but won't overpower the mid/highs either. The overall current draw for all 3 amps will be in a range that should not radically overtax your stock electrical system too. From the specs noted, The sub amp, (Thunder 421D) will be fused at about 30-40A's. The Thunder 282's may be fused at 40A's per each. Can you confirm that?
Once we know the fusing details on all amps, that will help determine the proper wire gage to use for the main power line and what the appropriate D-block needs are as well.
It still looks like 1/0 would be a good choice for your main power feed line. The D-block needed, would be 3-4 x #8 outs to feed each amp. (If my earlier assertions are correct.
When using 3 amps, you may find it advantagous to install a manual switched line as a REMote turn on for all 3 amps. (Flip a switch at the dash and all 3 amps will turn on) We can discuss these options as you get to that stage of planning and installation.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 12:32:53
what would be the reason for a switch? Is the amp turn on from the head unit not enough?
kirchatndftbl on 04/10/2007 13:00:30
most headunits remote will only turn on roughly 2 not many can handle 3 and can mess up the amps or the hu
swez on 04/10/2007 13:02:24
Most HU's are limited to about 250-300 mA's of current draw before they bust out. Some older MTX amps exceed that draw when more than 2 amps are used. This is why I mentioned that option.
If you used the HU REMote and the amps draw more than the HU can deliver, it will blow that section of the HU. (It cannot handle that level of turn on current)
Some of the older MTX amps are as high as 14mA's of REM draw/amp. Using 2 amps is fine. However, adding a 3rd amp may exceed the limits and blow the HU REM chip. That's why I am suggesting the alternate method. Read this and take things into consideration as needed: (REMote circuits and relays for outboard amps) the thought here..."Better safe than sorry".
http://www.bcae1.com/amplfier.htm
You have 4 options here:
1. Try all 3 amps and see if the HU can trigger them all (Risky)
2. Install a manual REMote line in the dash as a safety measure (100% safe)
3. Use a relay and fused 12 volt tap system to feed amp REM's and be assured you are good to go (100% safe)
4. Tap off your ACC/IGN circuit and fuse it at 0.5A's (This is often the easiest way and usually very reliable too)
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 20:39:24
I seem to remember frying an Alpines rem out that way in the late 90's. A relay woudl be easy enough. Thanks for that I would have not remembered I am sure.
swez on 04/11/2007 13:03:26
Did a job for a fellow CKer last year and he had a Nak with a Bahn AEQ6 installed in the same slot. He used a pair of JL amps and this Nak could not handle all 3 Rems. So, I left the AEQ on the REM and wired the amps direct to his ACC/IGN circuit instead. That worked out perfectly.
Since we were battling the clock and such, I did not use a relay circuit for this install, but would have if the ACC/IGN did not work so well.
Swez
Replies (22)
swez on 04/8/2007 14:55:45
Door mounting may not be a good option for heat dissipation issues. Under the seats are one option or making a false floor amp rack might be a better option. (That keeps little and big feet off your amps and provides a stealthy install too)
Some use cooling fans to help pull off the extra heat as well when using semi-enclosed amp racks. If you really like to jam when out on your own, the fans will help keep the amps cool under high load conditions.
Actually, HiFonics has been a bit up and down the past few years since they were aacquired by Maxxsonics a while back. The older amps were pretty good for the price and features. We do recommend them on certain installs too.
Comments?
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/8/2007 17:00:18
Thanks for the reply! What I was thinking was sort of a flush mount into the back door panel with two fans, one in and one out to keep air flowing over the amps. My main concern is making sure the door is leak free/proof and of course getting power wire into the door and still being able to use it properly. Any insight there? What is a safe gauge wire for these amps?
swez on 04/8/2007 22:18:40
OK, I see what you are saying and yes, that does make sense. You may not even need fans either. I was thinking initially that you were talking about the rear passenger doors and that's not a good option.
The rear cargo doors on this Nav, are they dual side by side panel doors common in larger vans and such or a tailgate bottom and flip up hatch window on top?
As for wiring, I would probably go with 1/0 gage from the battery to the rear door area. From there, you can split the amps with a Distribution block using #4 power lines to each amp. Depending on the door design, that may be a bit more tricky. A picture of the rear door system would be most helpful if you can find one.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/8/2007 23:55:31
Its the gate/hatch combo. Both flip up to open. I have had the trim panel off and mounting looks like cake but running large gauge wire in looks like it will be rough. Wires now entering the door do so now at the top of the door.
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 00:00:07
......also would two runs of 4 gauge form the battery (one for each amp) be enough?
swez on 04/9/2007 10:37:18
You could do it that way if the sub amp is not fused greater than 80A's.
I suggested the 1/0 as a main feed as this is a long wire run from the engine compartment to the back of this truck. (25 feet of wire?) Using 1/0 gage wire insures little or no voltage drops in runs this long. Using a pair of #4's would probably drop the voltage by 1/2 a volt or more. (We try to avoid that whenever possible) That's why I mentioned the 1/0 as your main feeder, then split the 1/0 down to short runs of #4 so that minimal voltage drops are noted.
Yes, this will cost more to use the 1/0 and a D-block, but the performance is often worth the extra cost and effort.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 12:35:13
Cool. Thanks again for the insight. I think I will run it that way and then split to 4 before going into the door to make that part simpler. Whats a good online resource for door boots? Also there is a cap to be used on the amps if that makes any difference.
swez on 04/9/2007 14:02:10
Great! Am glad you see the connection here. It will insure your amps get the power they need and very low voltage losses are what you want here.
Cap for the sub amp might help a little with light dimming on long bass hits. They can help reduce that issue when using larger sub amps. However, that's not always the last word. Try it and see how well your Nav handles the new electrical upgrades. If the Cap does not cover it, we can explore other tried and true methods later.
Boots for the rear hatch? Good question Cath. Is there an electrical conduit between the body and top hatch for your tail lights and such there already? If yes and you can squeeze a pair of #4 lines in there, use it. As for grounding the rear hatch, you may need to add a grounding wire to insure noise free operation of the amps. The hinges and other hardware may not be sufficient grounding. You may have to add a grounding strap as well. That would be an easy step too. (Flat braided wire from an autoparts store whould do the job. (Use 2 of them)
Swez
I would suggest a secondary boot for your RCA's and speaker lines.
Catharsis70 on 04/9/2007 14:35:49
There is a boot there now for the rear wiper etc. I could probably get the power through it but will def need another for RCA and Speaker. I could probably get another stock boot but cutting the whole will suck because they are not round.
swez on 04/9/2007 16:53:06
You could start with a round hole and grind the hole into the proper shape with a dremel tool and a grinding stone or two. If no dremel is handy, just use a standard drill and chuck up your grinding wheels to approximate the hole size and shape desired. Here, a variable high speed drill would be in order. (Not a slow speed battery powered drill... it would take forever to grind) How's that sound to you?
Also, since you have the rear window wiper back there, install your RCA lines as far away as is possible from that motor. DC motors can emit RF noise when they operate and give you noise problems if the signal cables are too close to that motor. That would not be enjoyable huh? ;-)
Swez
cplkittle on 04/9/2007 18:53:33
If you can find a rubber cap for the wire it would be very helpful here as the cut end of a wire is difficult to push through a corrugated rubber boot. A little lotion or wire glide lubricant (KY will work too) will help out alot getting the wires through the boots.
If you have motor noise after the install, a layer of aluminum foil over the motor should help shield the noise. I would look for a nice set of RCAs to begin with though (double or triple shielded).
jamesp on 04/9/2007 19:08:01
It would sure make your job easier to install your amp(s) under the second row seat. All wiring runs would be shorter and easily run under the floor trim strips and carpet. The main power wire will only need to be about 9 or 10 feet long. If amping the front and rear channels, 12'-15' RCA sets will work great and maybe a longer pair for the sub. This wouldnt interfere with your 3 rd row seat and it could be taken out or left in as needed. You wouldnt have to worry about cooling your amps in this location as there is good circulation here
The logistics for running the large wire into a hinged door are not insurmountable but could be problematic.
Just something to think about....Good luck with your install.
swez on 04/9/2007 23:11:57
Agreed... but that suggestion seems to have gone by way of the Dodo bird for the moment. Let's see how Cath sees things and if we can sway him into a bit less work. If not, we'll just have to trust his eyes and sense of the task at hand.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 10:13:39
thanks again all for the input. I have decided to sell teh hifonics and use my MTX amps as they will fit under the second row seats. I thought it would be a sweet install to have them flush in the rear door and really fear wasnt an issue. What it comes down to is the weight. I woudl have to restrut the hatch etc to hold the extra weight and thats where its lost its appeal for me. The amps I will now use are two thunder 282's ( for front and rear) and a thunder 421d for the sub.
swez on 04/10/2007 11:36:05
Hum, that's a good thing to have thought of in advance. The extra weight of amps embedded in the rear hatch, would definitely add a strain to the hatch lift struts. (Not to mention the wiring issues and such as well) Good call for sure!
Do you have specs on the amps mentioned? Are they an older version of the MTX lineup? I searched for the sub amp mentioned and could not find much in specs and such on that item.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 12:01:56
They are a little older.
Thunder 282
Key Features
Amplifier Type Dual Channel
Bridgable Bridgable
RMS Power at 4 Ohms 45 W x 2
RMS Power at 2 Ohms 90 W x 2
Performance
Frequency Response 20 Hz - 20000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB
THD at Rated RMS Power 1 %
Crossover / Equalizer
Bass Boost Without Bass Boost
Low - Pass Frequency 85 Hz - 85 Hz
High - Pass Frequency 85 Hz - 85 Hz
Other Features
Input Voltage 12.5 volt
MOSFET Circuitry Yes
3 Way Ready Yes
Dimensions
Width 9.4 in.
Depth 9.75 in.
Height 2.1 in.
Thunder 421D
Amplifier Type Mono Channel
Bridgable Not Bridgable
RMS Power at 4 Ohms 150 W x 1
RMS Power at 2 Ohms 300 W x 1
Performance
Frequency Response 20 Hz - 20000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB
THD at Rated RMS Power 1 %
Crossover / Equalizer
Bass Boost With Bass Boost
Bass Boost Frequency 40 Hz
Low - Pass Frequency 40 Hz - 200 Hz
Other Features
Input Voltage 12.5 volt
MOSFET Circuitry Yes
3 Way Ready No
Dimensions
Width 9.4 in.
Depth 9.75 in.
Height 2.1 in.
swez on 04/10/2007 12:19:38
Cool... that tells a lot and this will be a modest SQL system when finished.
The sub amp is great for some good bump, but won't overpower the mid/highs either. The overall current draw for all 3 amps will be in a range that should not radically overtax your stock electrical system too. From the specs noted, The sub amp, (Thunder 421D) will be fused at about 30-40A's. The Thunder 282's may be fused at 40A's per each. Can you confirm that?
Once we know the fusing details on all amps, that will help determine the proper wire gage to use for the main power line and what the appropriate D-block needs are as well.
It still looks like 1/0 would be a good choice for your main power feed line. The D-block needed, would be 3-4 x #8 outs to feed each amp. (If my earlier assertions are correct.
When using 3 amps, you may find it advantagous to install a manual switched line as a REMote turn on for all 3 amps. (Flip a switch at the dash and all 3 amps will turn on) We can discuss these options as you get to that stage of planning and installation.
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 12:32:53
what would be the reason for a switch? Is the amp turn on from the head unit not enough?
kirchatndftbl on 04/10/2007 13:00:30
most headunits remote will only turn on roughly 2 not many can handle 3 and can mess up the amps or the hu
swez on 04/10/2007 13:02:24
Most HU's are limited to about 250-300 mA's of current draw before they bust out. Some older MTX amps exceed that draw when more than 2 amps are used. This is why I mentioned that option.
If you used the HU REMote and the amps draw more than the HU can deliver, it will blow that section of the HU. (It cannot handle that level of turn on current)
Some of the older MTX amps are as high as 14mA's of REM draw/amp. Using 2 amps is fine. However, adding a 3rd amp may exceed the limits and blow the HU REM chip. That's why I am suggesting the alternate method. Read this and take things into consideration as needed: (REMote circuits and relays for outboard amps) the thought here..."Better safe than sorry".
http://www.bcae1.com/amplfier.htm
You have 4 options here:
1. Try all 3 amps and see if the HU can trigger them all (Risky)
2. Install a manual REMote line in the dash as a safety measure (100% safe)
3. Use a relay and fused 12 volt tap system to feed amp REM's and be assured you are good to go (100% safe)
4. Tap off your ACC/IGN circuit and fuse it at 0.5A's (This is often the easiest way and usually very reliable too)
Swez
Catharsis70 on 04/10/2007 20:39:24
I seem to remember frying an Alpines rem out that way in the late 90's. A relay woudl be easy enough. Thanks for that I would have not remembered I am sure.
swez on 04/11/2007 13:03:26
Did a job for a fellow CKer last year and he had a Nak with a Bahn AEQ6 installed in the same slot. He used a pair of JL amps and this Nak could not handle all 3 Rems. So, I left the AEQ on the REM and wired the amps direct to his ACC/IGN circuit instead. That worked out perfectly.
Since we were battling the clock and such, I did not use a relay circuit for this install, but would have if the ACC/IGN did not work so well.
Swez
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