Hi,
All,
My goal with this post, is to find out which bass enclosure should I use, to get the most bass.
My amp in mind is the Alpine MDR-M1005.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14926
Should I use 2x 12" rated at 500wrms each, in an ported enclosure tuned at 30 - 35hz.
or one 15" rated at 1000wrms, in a similar enclosure as the one above.
This is just a throught question,
If I build a sluted ported enclosure tuned at 35hz, for the 15" woofer. at the end of the requried lenght of the port, say i flare the end like a horn type enclosure.
will this worth my wild, or waste my time.
Thank you.
Regards
b_bass59. SMILE
Replies (17)
cplkittle on 04/7/2007 22:28:55
The flared opening, depending on the amount of flare, will make some difference, but not much.
If the port is 10" long, for example, and the last 2" are flared there will not be as much of an effect as a port that gradually gets larger the entire length (horn type enclosure).
cplkittle on 04/7/2007 22:42:07
Concerning one 15 or two 12's..
Volume (decibels, not air volume) is determined by surface area and excursion.
one 15" sub = 1.5625x12" subs
If both the 15 and the 12's have equal excursion, the 15 wins.
If the 12" subs have 1.5x more excursion than the 15, the 12's win.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/8/2007 08:59:36
There is also the factor of the vat the different sizes of cones move. 15's have a bigger, heavier cone, and may not be able to hit really fast notes as well.
cplkittle on 04/8/2007 12:11:05
There are some other factors (efficiency, cabin gain, q, etc..)
I would recommend either ported or bandpass for the most bass.
swez on 04/8/2007 15:06:46
It depends on the music you like most as well. Ported or slot vented boxes can help bring up the deep lows in Rap a lot. (I don't know if I'd ever want a "sluted" enclosure... j/k) However, the size of the box is much larger than a sealed one.
Sealed boxes are very accurate, roll off the deep lows predictably and can sound very nice in smaller sedan w/o taking up a huge amount of space or adding excessive weight to your ride.
Frankly, a pair of sealed or ported Alpine SWR-1222D's would be a very nice fit for this amp. When wired in series parallel, you get the magic 2 ohm load. (Perfect for this amp)
Does this Alpine amp have Infrasonic filtering? (Subsonic Filter = SSF) If you use a ported design, you'll need that. If sealed, no need for the SSF. Ahhh, just looked and yes, this amp has an SSF circuit)
Comments?
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/8/2007 17:12:38
This is what I had in mind. for the horn enclosure.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/holdtechsystems/photo/294928804319174020/0
swez on 04/8/2007 21:54:54
Hummm, not familiar with this type of venting system. The area ov the vent would be the part I would be most interested in. As the flare gets wider at the mouth, I can see a benefit as a horn loaded vent. (Low air speed velosity here = minimal port noise)
However, to use this type of vent/horn design, the throat of the horn would probably need computer generated parameters to get the right tuning frequency for the driver used. Does this box design come with some kind of software to calculate the specific tuning parameters?
Another thing I see and don't fully understand, it might just be tuned off the back wall portion of the port and the flare merely adds efficiency to the tuning panel?
Where did this design come from and is it well documented on how to optimize it for any given woofer?
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/8/2007 22:56:54
This enclosure design was developed by my friends and I, after looking at alot of bass scoop enclosures. we came up with this prototype design, to give us an idea what the enclosure should look like.
Looking at the design you can see, that the back portion of the port is tuned, the idea of the flared part of the port is to give us the scoop type gain, of a conventional bass scoop.
Note: This is just an idea not a well thought-out and calculated enclosure design.
What do you guys think can this work or it’s a waste of time, and money to try.
Thanks
Your opinion is greatly appreciated.
trunkisloud on 04/8/2007 23:36:51
give it a shot....if you took the time to draw it up...take the time to build at least one just to see how it works....what do you have to lose?...a 20 dollar sheet of mdf and a couple of hours.?......
swez on 04/9/2007 11:00:24
Got the idea and in theory, it has merit. The "V" type throat will act like a megaphone in application. How will that affect the port tuning factor of this enclosure? I have no idea. Only one way to find out... make a prototype and see.
May I suggest that you only screw in the panels and use silicone to seal all joints. If the box does not perform to expectations, you can remove the vent or dissassemble the box and and reuse the panels and reconfigure as needed. The silicone will seal all joints but can be dismantled w/o damaging the wood panels. Once you have a design that works, then use wood glue and screws for a permanent fix.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/9/2007 16:35:47
If you are comparing 2 woofers of the same line & manufacturer, and their excursion is similar, two 10" woofers have the same surface area as one 15" woofer. Two 12" woofers have more surface area, and subsequently, will put our more volume of sound. The 15" might produce a touch lower frequency bass...but compared to two 12s, you probably won't notice anyway.
Concerning a 15" woofer not being 'fast enough' etc as smaller woofers, this is just not true. The only issue you may have is if the cone is made from an inferior material and flexes too much...however, I don't think this has been a problem since the early 1990s.
When performance is the main issue, you have 2 choices...more accurate bass or, more indiscriminate output.
Vented enclosures operating closer to the bottom end of the audio spectrum (30-35Hz) provide the least amount of boost to output (efficiency), but the least degration to the quality of sound. Vented enclosures operating higher (40-45Hz) produce the most volume as most audio signal is above 40Hz.
This does mean, however, that if you want to use the higher frequency enclosure, you'll need to use high-pass filter to remove frequencies significantly below 45Hz...or the speaker will suffer.
It all depends on your listening habits. Are you listening to music, or, are you competing in a loudness competition? The more efficient your venting system, the more one-note your sound becomes.
The Trumpet port you mentioned, what is the purpose of this vent? The longer the 'horn' portion, the more reflection and loss of energy--but a change in frequency? Is that the goal?
MrBrownstone on 04/9/2007 16:37:45
"As the flare gets wider at the mouth, I can see a benefit as a horn loaded vent. (Low air speed velosity here = minimal port noise)
"
That's true...comparing a 3" port to a 4" port...however, the port noise has already been made prior to the bell section :-)
swez on 04/9/2007 17:05:41
That statement was made before the picture of the design was shown and since then, as you say, port noise is only an issue at the throat or the narrows part of the vent on the back wall.
The trumpet flared mouth will act like a wave guide for bass waves and expand the bass dispersion pattern like a long throw scoop enclosure used in outdoor concerts woofer systems. (Horn loaded woofers) It's a great design for efficiency and sending bass energy well out into the the air space in front of the flare. However, since this is port tuned, only the deep bass at PTF will be affected. Direct cone radiation will be just like a normal sealed woofer.
Swez
PS Nice to match wits with you again Mr. B. All is well again...
b_bass59 on 04/11/2007 13:06:40
I understand what you guys mean, doing something like this will only affect the PTF and not the whole performance of the bass spectrum.
I think I'll go with the 2 x12s. because of space requirments I,ll will enclose it like this.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/holdtechsystems/photo/294928804325193875/0
Thanks,
I am open for any corrections.
Regards
swez on 04/11/2007 13:18:54
That should work OK. You may wish to use 2 ports and a sealed divider between each woofer. That way, each woofer has it's own enclosure and port.
This method works best as if one sub blows out, each sub has its own air chamber. In your design, if one sub blows, the remaining sub is working in 2 times the recommended size airspace and cone over-excursion could/most likely lead to blowing out the remaining sub.
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/11/2007 22:46:39
I know this is not related to the topic.
Is this amp good for midrange
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17289
swez on 04/11/2007 23:02:15
Actually, that Clarion amp is a vey good choice to power your subs.
That Sony would be better to power Mid/highs. (With some careful gain and filter adjustments) The Sony amp is geared more toward full range speakers and you can power up to 4 speaker with it. If yoiu have ist now, it's usable. If not, a 4 channel amp that matches or slightly exceeds the present speakers will do nicely.
Swez
All,
My goal with this post, is to find out which bass enclosure should I use, to get the most bass.
My amp in mind is the Alpine MDR-M1005.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14926
Should I use 2x 12" rated at 500wrms each, in an ported enclosure tuned at 30 - 35hz.
or one 15" rated at 1000wrms, in a similar enclosure as the one above.
This is just a throught question,
If I build a sluted ported enclosure tuned at 35hz, for the 15" woofer. at the end of the requried lenght of the port, say i flare the end like a horn type enclosure.
will this worth my wild, or waste my time.
Thank you.
Regards
b_bass59. SMILE
Replies (17)
cplkittle on 04/7/2007 22:28:55
The flared opening, depending on the amount of flare, will make some difference, but not much.
If the port is 10" long, for example, and the last 2" are flared there will not be as much of an effect as a port that gradually gets larger the entire length (horn type enclosure).
cplkittle on 04/7/2007 22:42:07
Concerning one 15 or two 12's..
Volume (decibels, not air volume) is determined by surface area and excursion.
one 15" sub = 1.5625x12" subs
If both the 15 and the 12's have equal excursion, the 15 wins.
If the 12" subs have 1.5x more excursion than the 15, the 12's win.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/8/2007 08:59:36
There is also the factor of the vat the different sizes of cones move. 15's have a bigger, heavier cone, and may not be able to hit really fast notes as well.
cplkittle on 04/8/2007 12:11:05
There are some other factors (efficiency, cabin gain, q, etc..)
I would recommend either ported or bandpass for the most bass.
swez on 04/8/2007 15:06:46
It depends on the music you like most as well. Ported or slot vented boxes can help bring up the deep lows in Rap a lot. (I don't know if I'd ever want a "sluted" enclosure... j/k) However, the size of the box is much larger than a sealed one.
Sealed boxes are very accurate, roll off the deep lows predictably and can sound very nice in smaller sedan w/o taking up a huge amount of space or adding excessive weight to your ride.
Frankly, a pair of sealed or ported Alpine SWR-1222D's would be a very nice fit for this amp. When wired in series parallel, you get the magic 2 ohm load. (Perfect for this amp)
Does this Alpine amp have Infrasonic filtering? (Subsonic Filter = SSF) If you use a ported design, you'll need that. If sealed, no need for the SSF. Ahhh, just looked and yes, this amp has an SSF circuit)
Comments?
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/8/2007 17:12:38
This is what I had in mind. for the horn enclosure.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/holdtechsystems/photo/294928804319174020/0
swez on 04/8/2007 21:54:54
Hummm, not familiar with this type of venting system. The area ov the vent would be the part I would be most interested in. As the flare gets wider at the mouth, I can see a benefit as a horn loaded vent. (Low air speed velosity here = minimal port noise)
However, to use this type of vent/horn design, the throat of the horn would probably need computer generated parameters to get the right tuning frequency for the driver used. Does this box design come with some kind of software to calculate the specific tuning parameters?
Another thing I see and don't fully understand, it might just be tuned off the back wall portion of the port and the flare merely adds efficiency to the tuning panel?
Where did this design come from and is it well documented on how to optimize it for any given woofer?
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/8/2007 22:56:54
This enclosure design was developed by my friends and I, after looking at alot of bass scoop enclosures. we came up with this prototype design, to give us an idea what the enclosure should look like.
Looking at the design you can see, that the back portion of the port is tuned, the idea of the flared part of the port is to give us the scoop type gain, of a conventional bass scoop.
Note: This is just an idea not a well thought-out and calculated enclosure design.
What do you guys think can this work or it’s a waste of time, and money to try.
Thanks
Your opinion is greatly appreciated.
trunkisloud on 04/8/2007 23:36:51
give it a shot....if you took the time to draw it up...take the time to build at least one just to see how it works....what do you have to lose?...a 20 dollar sheet of mdf and a couple of hours.?......
swez on 04/9/2007 11:00:24
Got the idea and in theory, it has merit. The "V" type throat will act like a megaphone in application. How will that affect the port tuning factor of this enclosure? I have no idea. Only one way to find out... make a prototype and see.
May I suggest that you only screw in the panels and use silicone to seal all joints. If the box does not perform to expectations, you can remove the vent or dissassemble the box and and reuse the panels and reconfigure as needed. The silicone will seal all joints but can be dismantled w/o damaging the wood panels. Once you have a design that works, then use wood glue and screws for a permanent fix.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/9/2007 16:35:47
If you are comparing 2 woofers of the same line & manufacturer, and their excursion is similar, two 10" woofers have the same surface area as one 15" woofer. Two 12" woofers have more surface area, and subsequently, will put our more volume of sound. The 15" might produce a touch lower frequency bass...but compared to two 12s, you probably won't notice anyway.
Concerning a 15" woofer not being 'fast enough' etc as smaller woofers, this is just not true. The only issue you may have is if the cone is made from an inferior material and flexes too much...however, I don't think this has been a problem since the early 1990s.
When performance is the main issue, you have 2 choices...more accurate bass or, more indiscriminate output.
Vented enclosures operating closer to the bottom end of the audio spectrum (30-35Hz) provide the least amount of boost to output (efficiency), but the least degration to the quality of sound. Vented enclosures operating higher (40-45Hz) produce the most volume as most audio signal is above 40Hz.
This does mean, however, that if you want to use the higher frequency enclosure, you'll need to use high-pass filter to remove frequencies significantly below 45Hz...or the speaker will suffer.
It all depends on your listening habits. Are you listening to music, or, are you competing in a loudness competition? The more efficient your venting system, the more one-note your sound becomes.
The Trumpet port you mentioned, what is the purpose of this vent? The longer the 'horn' portion, the more reflection and loss of energy--but a change in frequency? Is that the goal?
MrBrownstone on 04/9/2007 16:37:45
"As the flare gets wider at the mouth, I can see a benefit as a horn loaded vent. (Low air speed velosity here = minimal port noise)
"
That's true...comparing a 3" port to a 4" port...however, the port noise has already been made prior to the bell section :-)
swez on 04/9/2007 17:05:41
That statement was made before the picture of the design was shown and since then, as you say, port noise is only an issue at the throat or the narrows part of the vent on the back wall.
The trumpet flared mouth will act like a wave guide for bass waves and expand the bass dispersion pattern like a long throw scoop enclosure used in outdoor concerts woofer systems. (Horn loaded woofers) It's a great design for efficiency and sending bass energy well out into the the air space in front of the flare. However, since this is port tuned, only the deep bass at PTF will be affected. Direct cone radiation will be just like a normal sealed woofer.
Swez
PS Nice to match wits with you again Mr. B. All is well again...
b_bass59 on 04/11/2007 13:06:40
I understand what you guys mean, doing something like this will only affect the PTF and not the whole performance of the bass spectrum.
I think I'll go with the 2 x12s. because of space requirments I,ll will enclose it like this.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/holdtechsystems/photo/294928804325193875/0
Thanks,
I am open for any corrections.
Regards
swez on 04/11/2007 13:18:54
That should work OK. You may wish to use 2 ports and a sealed divider between each woofer. That way, each woofer has it's own enclosure and port.
This method works best as if one sub blows out, each sub has its own air chamber. In your design, if one sub blows, the remaining sub is working in 2 times the recommended size airspace and cone over-excursion could/most likely lead to blowing out the remaining sub.
Swez
b_bass59 on 04/11/2007 22:46:39
I know this is not related to the topic.
Is this amp good for midrange
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17289
swez on 04/11/2007 23:02:15
Actually, that Clarion amp is a vey good choice to power your subs.
That Sony would be better to power Mid/highs. (With some careful gain and filter adjustments) The Sony amp is geared more toward full range speakers and you can power up to 4 speaker with it. If yoiu have ist now, it's usable. If not, a 4 channel amp that matches or slightly exceeds the present speakers will do nicely.
Swez
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