I have a 97' 4 runner. I have a 12" alpine sub. Phoenix gold amp.
(Xs 2500) my sub has a dual voice coil (alpine sws 1242d). I am running my amp bridged to the single sub, that is set to run at 2ohms.Q-logic ported enclosure.It hits harder with back window open any ideas why? Oh yea also can I benefit from a bigger amp? Thanks for any advice you may be able to offer me.
Replies (44)
cplkittle on 03/31/2007 23:45:23
That is also known as outlaw in SPL competitions.
I'm not exactly sure how to explain it in technical terms, but it has to do with the fact that sound waves can escape the car and don't become stale so to speak. It also has to do with the fact that there is no back pressure in the cabin of the car. Think of your car as a speakerbox. If all the windows are up you could consider it a sealed box. If one is cracked, it is considered ported. Ported boxes are twice as loud as sealed boxes.
trunkisloud on 04/1/2007 01:01:24
that amp is probably plenty if not too much for the type s ....so no worries there
swez on 04/1/2007 14:21:34
Yes, this is like a pressure relief valve in many ways. The bass will be contained and sound pressure is restricted to some degree with the doors, windows and trunk/hatch closed. (High pressure containment)
When we open a vent, window or similar, bass pressure waves are expelled outside the vehicle. One can even note a degree of bass tuning properties by the amount of venting space we allow the bass waves to escape. (Like a ported sub enclosure)
That's all for now,
Swez
4runner on 04/1/2007 15:25:21
Thanks for the info everyone. That makes perfect sense.would you guys run that particular sub with that amp set at 2ohms or 4ohms? Thanks for any input.
swez on 04/1/2007 17:03:31
This sub is rated at 300 watts RMS power and can be used as 2 or 8 ohms, depending on how it's wired. Am not familiar with this PG amp version. Do you have specs or a web link for the PG XS2500?
I did find something on this amp. It's an older amp and now discontinued. It's a 2 channel amp and not best suited for a single Alpine 4+4 DVC sub. Here are the specs:
Max Continuous Bridged Power @ 1% THD 500 watts x 1 into 4 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
Max Continuous Power per Channel @ 1% THD 250 watts x 2 into 2 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
Nominal Continuous Power per Channel @ 1 % THD 150 Watts x 2 into 4 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
IASCA/USAC Power Rating 50 Watts x 2 into 4 ohms @ 12.5 Vdc
In short form, running the sub off both channels bridged MONO and the sub coils wired at 8 ohms, will net about 250 watts RMS and be safe for the amp and sub.
The other safe option is to use only 1 channel of this amp and wire the sub for 2 ohms. Same power as noted above. If you added a 2nd SWS sub to match, then use channel 2 to power sub B. That would give some nice bump.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/1/2007 17:25:43
My setup sounds pretty dull without the passenger front window down. Sounds best with all 3 (LOL) down, but the rears won't really make a difference without at least having the front cracked. Sucks when it gets cold!
swez on 04/1/2007 23:43:19
Hope your Ghetto Hoopty Bucket has a good heater system in it. That year model did have a solid heater system when its working properly.
Swez
trunkisloud on 04/2/2007 00:27:33
yea my 86 lesabre heater works good ..but only on defrost
swez on 04/2/2007 09:47:37
That's probably the most important system anyway.
There's a series of ducts under the dash that are usually vacuum controlled by the heater control module. If the linkage is damaged or binding, a major dash removal job is often needed to repair that system. It could be as simple as a broken or loose cable that allows the heater duct mechanicals to change from defrost to floor or dash vents. Or, more complex like a bad vacuum leak, damaged directional vane or the vaccum motor has ruptured and cannot move to other positions.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/2/2007 10:03:27
Heater works great, fortunately enough, and I may have to drop the words Ghetto Hoopty off of the name in a few months as the car is slowly making a full 180 for the better. Still be a bucket though. Wouldn't have it any other wayPROUD
4runner on 04/2/2007 16:53:51
Hey Swez thanks for the help. I also have a kenwood excelon mono sub amp I could ose instead. Wasn't sure if it might be to much for my sub? It's a kenwood excelon model# kac-x401m. What do you think? I really appreciate everyones input, thanks...
swez on 04/2/2007 18:46:41
Yes, this Kenwood amp, (KAC-X401m) would work well with your SWS series sub. It is a mite strong at 2 ohms, but you can easily dial back to power by trimming the gain control.
This amp can put out up to 600 Wrms of power @ 2 ohms. Having an AC voltmeter handy, would be a good way to test the power at given gain settings so you don't fry the sub.
Nice amp BTW!
Here's the specs on that amp:
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Kenwood_KAC-X401M/
Swez
PS Your PG amp would make a nice full range amp for powering front and rear speakers too. It's too strong for stock speakers, but if you really wanted to upgrade to a very good Bass, Mid/Highs system over time, we can help get you there.
4runner on 04/3/2007 15:43:16
Thanks for the help Swez! I have an excelon deck that will let me adjust all the amp settings on that amp. From my head unit.with my PG all I have is an LPL.controler. Sounds like I will put in the ole excelon gear. I'll let you know how it turns out.Thanks again!!!
swez on 04/3/2007 15:54:33
4Runner,
This PG amp is full range and can easily be used for subs or full range speakers. The Remote you mentioned is only used to control the Bass Boost feature on this amp. It would not be needed for full range speakers though. This amp also has LP/HP variable filtering crossovers and you can use them or the HU crossover features if you wish. (Very strong amp here too... great for full range speakers and cutting through the heavy bass you will get from that Kenwood 401M)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOXS2500
Specs: PG XS2500
Every XS Series amplifier "exceeds published power ratings" and comes with its own spec sheet.
Features:
Thermally Efficient Heatsink
Timed Acoustically Integrated Muting (TAIM)
Differential Speaker or RCA Level Inputs
Tri-Linear Capability Allows Simultaneous Stereo and Bridged Operation
24dB / Octave High-Pass and Low-Pass Crossover
Rnet Programmable 20Hz to 20kHz Crossover Frequency ***
Auxiliary Outputs Route Full Range Signals
Twin "T" Bass Circuit Provides Up to 18 dB of Boost at 45 Hz
Optional LPL44 Remote Bass Level Control
2 Ohm Bridged Stable
*** Note: This amp has LP/HP filters and can be used for bass or full range apps.
Nice amp too! (Why not use it if you can)
Swez
4runner on 04/4/2007 16:06:00
Swez, after a little thinking, I am going to keep my excelon head unit and my pg amp. I am going to get another sws-1242d. And run them bolth off the pg. I have infinity mids and highs, running on a 4 channel pg amp.allready, hopefully another alpine sub added in the mix will give me the extra bump I'm lookin for. My system already sounds beautifully clear and loud.the one sws sub hits brutaly hard so two ought to bee what I'm looking to achieve.any extra advice you my have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks againa, 4runner (sarasota florida)
swez on 04/4/2007 18:12:20
Yes, a 2nd SWS sub would be a good match for this amp when bridged MONO and wired for a net 4 ohms. (Series/parallel) This amp can deliver 250 Wrms/channel or 500 bridged and should give 2 subs a good kick as well.
Swez
4runner on 04/4/2007 20:11:10
THANKS SWEZ I'LL WORK ON THAT OVER THE NEXT WEEK OR SO AND LET YOU KNOW HOW THING WORK OUT. THANKS A TON 4RUNNER...
HPRacing on 04/4/2007 22:13:54
Are you talking about the backdoor window or the backseat ones? if you are talkign about the sound been more powerfull by opening the back rear door window, BIG NO. This is a problem and you might not see it soon but your subs are gonna blow from the inside coil by doing this. Yes not only does your sub is already on a box to maximize pressure but your car is aswell and ones you open anything in the car you will hear it louder but all the pressure that was inside will be so dangerous for the sub that I have seen some bad things happend to two $500 dollars each subs.Always open the window first and then if you want turn the music on; but never have the sub running and open the window. About having a better amp, it will always work but..theres a big but there, all depends on how good your instalation is. This industry is not about the brand as many like to believe is on the guy behind it installing it, if he's true and has heart it will show no matter if you have a 800 watts lancer or a 2300 MTX. Also you might want to search for a good amp only by their RMS never by their watts unless you are looking for a amp for your speakers or mids. I have seen a 1600 watt amp really amazing as well btw, when I read its book and I tested it; it only gave out 69 rpms. which in that case my mother cars radio would be more powerfull than the amp. Somethings to think about.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/4/2007 22:33:16
Although I agree that brand is not as important as installation, I would have to dissagree on the subject of opening the window causing damage. If this were caused by an air pressure in the cabin, the same thing would basically occur every time a person rolled through a Micky D's drive thru.
Openeing a window releases pressure, it doesn't cause it to be contained. Thats where having the difference in window up or window down comes into play. It sounds better with it down usually because of instead of being trapped, it has somewhere to go, flows better, and nets us a better sound.
If this were caused by changing the point of deflection of bass, you would blow a sub if you turned the box around.
And finally, a sub is optimized for a specific size of airspace in a box, and in a sealed box, we do have a degree of pressure pulling back on the sub, no sub is truly optimized for a specific pressure on the other side of the cone. If this were the case, a specific set of subs would be neded for specific vehicles.
BTW RMS is wattage, just the true, continuios wattage. Peak wattage is the amount of watts an amp can give for a small fraction of a second. Generally a number manufacturers use to hook a sucker.
cplkittle on 04/4/2007 23:04:27
Rolling your window down will not damage the sub!!!
I don't know where you are getting this information, but you are way off. I am not trying to bash you here, just trying to prevent any unnecessary worries.
Just out of curiosity, how did you test the 1600 watt amplifier that only produced 69 watts? I know there is alot of overrating in the car audio world, but not that severe.
HPRacing on 04/4/2007 23:29:13
You are right. RMS are wattz, when I mentioned it was because most people or customers I have ran upon only seem to read the labels on the box that say on big numbers how much wattz the amp is going to give, and most of the amps I have delt with are sorry to say quite crappy when it comes to upholding true power and lasting life while at work.
Now about the window conversation, one reason why I ask if it was the back door window or backseat was precisely the answer you gave out, if its the inside windows where people sit yea it brings out more power and sound and no it would never harm the subs, yet what I was mentioning when I said "Thats a Big No" was more of a cuation thing because just like you said no harm in opening any of the front windows but if he was playing the music and had the bass all the way up and opened the back door's window or the hole door itself , say to show off for a few minutes, I have myself done this and it has cost me quite a penny to buy new subs. It is more likely and faster of a visual to recognize the nice boom impact it makes if it was in a car, yet since he has a Runner the entire car is opened on the inside so it would take more time and more open and close of the back door but none the less it would happend if it is done as many times as required for that sub to blow up from the coil. I got one more thing to say about the boom boxes but I have some other important business to attend to right now, 2 things I would liek to know, how long have you been in the industry? just personnally asking and 2 I'll check up on this later on lol gtg. BTW who ever made this site, is a real life saver. I haven't talked to anyone about sounds sistems and my personall expirience with anyone and always wanted to expand my knowladge with someone.
cplkittle on 04/4/2007 23:44:15
The box, whether ported, sealed, 4th order, 6th order, transmission line, or folded horn is the deciding factor in how the sub performs. The box is the only thing that affects the performance of the sub and it's longevity as far as backpressure is concerned. I have a Kia sportage, and I often show off with all doors and the hatch open. It's all about the box.
I have been a car audio junkie since I was a teenager (early 90's).
I have worked on and off for shops for several years. I managed one for over a year before moving on. I prefer the install bay over the office.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 00:14:47
Lmao, (coinsidence) kia sportage...I remember I built a nice and sweet audio around a kia rio stationwagon, very nice car two. Very nice, the fact you have been for so much in this industry, Family onwed a audio store back in Puerto Rico and I was the student for installing audio, I learned some thing and came to love the industry. I haven't been on it for quite a while now so I might not know whats new.
About where i get my info from...nothign but pure personal and first hand expirience, (just like when I saw...or should I say made a caps blew up for inverting the cables), like I said my family own the store and i was a student at it so I had to test things out. How did I test it? I might not quite remember the whole procedure right now..its been quite a while since I have touched a audio cable, but I do remember the tester, the one with the numbers and the two cables coming from it that you attach to the end of the connecter from the amp that feed audio to the subs...I know; I know that was way to long of an explanation, its been years. And believe me yes it is that far jacked up the amps, I dont know with what types of amps you have worked on but when like me you work with amps that come from taiwan or china they tend to be quite...surprising, cplkittle what do you think about the new ways they use for box, the molded ones, not sure how they are called. I think they use fiber glass and mold it to the cars interiors shape..personnally to me that just looks pretty, not effective, but thats my opinion, whats yours?
swez on 04/5/2007 01:03:25
Welcome to CK there HP!
There are several seasoned installers on this site and a few die-hard system designers/engineers too. Between us, we probably have over 30 years of combined experience in one form or another.
As you say, the enclosure is pressurized and also the cabin. But a good sub of todays' calibur should stand up to an open door, window or hatch if the user has observed the enclosure specs for a given sub. The box provides adequate back pressure to keep the sub from over-excursion. (Even is we open a door or hatch) It boils down to X-max parameters of a given sub. If we stay in the target range of a given sub, it will survive.
Now, if you are talking extreme SPL Comps installs, that a horse of a different color. In that scenario, The tighter the cabin from leaks and such, the more SPL is trapped inside the vehicle. (Higher SPL #'s) Most guys here are a mix of SPL/SQL. Few run only SPL COMPS as a daily driver and we cater primarily to SQL and SQ apps. If one is soley interested in max SPL, we can only take them so far. (It's not the main focus of this site.
Uhmmm, have been on this site for over 8 years now and still have much to learn about certain aspects of car audio. Have also been into Pro Audio design, installs and the like for over 10+ years as well. (Mostly live sound reinforcement, stage monitoring and some studio monitor designs as well. Am not claiming to be an expert in all cases, but after over 20 years + in this field, few can catch me napping for long. (Same with Kittle and a few others)
FYI: The fried woofers you mentioned earlier, were they ported, BP, EBS enclosure designs? It sounds like the enclosure design was on the "hairy fringe" of X-max when installed. Sub technology has made a quantum leap or two in the past few years and those subs were just not able to take the transition. They either greatly exceeded X-max or were over-powered to the point of failure with only minor air pressure changes to the cabin.
In the sub world today, most premium subs can handle such annomolies and come back for more. Older subs were not as robust and just a minor deviation would be enough to push them past the point to failure. (Save for perhaps the Vega Strokers)
Swez
jamesp on 04/5/2007 07:41:12
GRIN CLAP
swez on 04/5/2007 09:15:50
What's that all about Jimmy? SMILE
Swez...
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 09:43:25
I have personally been involved with car audio about four years now, but never on a truly proffessional basis. I am known throughout the hood as the "stereo guy," and I am usually the first person people turn to around my home for audio questions, since no shops will answer a question around here without trying to rob you on a new system. I've been kickin around here since around Sept. or Oct.
Again, I am not trying to bash, but I am absolutely confident in the fact that no rolling down of windows will damage a modern sub. I have had subs close enough to my rear door window, and have openend enough hatchbacks and trunks with the systems blaring enough times to be fully confident on this. have even done such with various older subs, and some ratty *** house woofers and never had a problem.
If this really ocurred in your vehicle, I would say you had a massive fluke happen to you, and some probably defective woofers.
My guess on what would fry a sub that way would be some sort of noise or short caused by working the switch on a rear window. I would have blown thousands of subs if this was really a common problem.
swez on 04/5/2007 10:01:52
That said it well in street language most can understand. LOL
What is a *** house woofer anyway? Nevermind, I may not really want to know that answer anyway but get the general idea. (I take it you mean a cheap or crappy woofer or enclosure combo) hehe
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:09:45
I was refering to the homonym for a donkey. Ratty just seemed to sound best paired up with said donkey reference. And I am more than sure judging by my current system, (which is Almost the best I ever had), one can assume I have seen the rattiest of the ratty, and still used them. My favorite to date: a bandpass 6.5 rated at 45 watts peak, from a DVD player with a built in 5.1 surround amp. I am suprised this thing still works, but now I use it as a test load when testing amps.
jamesp on 04/5/2007 10:35:00
Swez, my post, or lack of post above is just a graphic representation of the fact that I liked what you said and liked the way you said it......and I deleted my post as it could have possibly been considered inappropriate so I emoti-CONNED my way out of itGRIN
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:38:35
Gettin all innapproite like on us, there, Jimmy? I reckon there is no need for that there, but emoticons are cool.
swez on 04/5/2007 10:45:15
Ahhh, I see the picture now. A man of few words is often a sign of wisdom and learning. I need some work on that one admittedly. GRIN
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:49:09
Word. I should probably zip it more frequently myself.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 11:20:58
Nice, very nice info there swiz. I obviously went out of the industry for far to long. I do enjoy the info on audio, yes when I referred to them blowing up is when one uses to much distortion to make pressure. Like me I dont know about must of you but about now I cant run unless is no higher than 170db, I just cant feel it anymore. Shootuh yes now I that I read some of you guys responses I see that new subs have ressisteance but when i reffered to it was of expirience say back in 98-99, and like I told swez I only ride with no less than 170 so thats why I kept saying it dows blows, imagine 170 in the trunk of a mitsubishi mirage 2 doors and all the sudden you pop it open to show off...thats is a nasty site, it almost looks retarded how the just sort of pop out and die on you.BTW theres no bashin in it for me I havent been in this for a while so if you guys deal with new tech probably will be waydiferent from what i used to deal with so I might talk about somwhtign happend to me but tech today may have worked up on it, so pls do share anything I love info on audio, what I will do say is that I do more with my hands than with words, so sometimes I might come up with halfway info and that is because I know hwo to make it happend but do not know how to talk about it ot refered to it in words for people.
jamesp on 04/5/2007 11:48:48
Wow, what was the world record in 1998, 171dB or so with 50 amps and the doors bolted shut and bullet proof glass. Yes at those levels a sudden window opening is going to break something for sure.163dB can open your windows all by itself. I take it that you were not playing music with this system.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 11:54:12
lol no its a made cd for competitions only, it makes a wistheling noise three times and then it tried to blow your subs out, the purpose it obvious to see hwo has the best sound pressure. I've seen bad stuff happend to good sound sistems, its almost funny.
4runner on 04/5/2007 19:57:16
Swez,
I have always had my sub or sub's rearward facing in a various number of cars. However they have all had a trunk. My 4runner has a completely open cab you could say (no trunk). If this were your truck with my system, considering I am going to add to it another sws-1242D over the weekend, in a Q-logic ported enclosure. Would you face sub's front or to the rear.
Thanks for your expertise. 4runner
cplkittle on 04/5/2007 20:02:11
I really want to see some pictures of a 170dB+ Mirage.
swez on 04/5/2007 20:08:13
In most cases, rearward facing subs sound the best in most vehicles. Feel free to experiment if you like and change the firing direction of this sub and/or the 2nd one when installed and see where the sweet spot is.
In most cases, we get very good results in small SUV's with the subs butted up to the rear seat backs, but firing toward the tailgate.
Try them all and see what you like best.
Swez
4runner on 04/5/2007 20:49:08
Thanks, swez I will try bolth and see what sounds best. I was looking for my users manual for my pg xs2500 and I can't find it. Do you know where I can a free download able version?
Thanks, 4runner
cplkittle on 04/5/2007 20:54:18
ftp://208.187.38.55/Phoenix_Gold/Manuals/Amplifiers/XS/
The 2500 is not listed, but the 2200, 2300, and 6600 are.
I didn't see anything else.
swez on 04/6/2007 08:31:03
If you open the file that says "xs2chan.pdf", it has the 2300 and 2500 specs and install instructions.
One thing that is unique about this amp, it is rated at 2 ohms stable when bridged MONO and 1 ohm stable in stereo mode. That's very unusual for most Class A/B amps, but a definite plus as it acts more like like a High Current, (HC) class A/B amp. A nice feature to be sure.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/6/2007 09:40:14
That's pretty sweet. I always use 2ohm mono operation with 2 channels, but I always break the rules with stuff like that. I am sure if I cranked the gain any higher for very long though, the amp I have would revolt.
4runner on 04/6/2007 15:47:40
Thanks for the info guys.
(Xs 2500) my sub has a dual voice coil (alpine sws 1242d). I am running my amp bridged to the single sub, that is set to run at 2ohms.Q-logic ported enclosure.It hits harder with back window open any ideas why? Oh yea also can I benefit from a bigger amp? Thanks for any advice you may be able to offer me.
Replies (44)
cplkittle on 03/31/2007 23:45:23
That is also known as outlaw in SPL competitions.
I'm not exactly sure how to explain it in technical terms, but it has to do with the fact that sound waves can escape the car and don't become stale so to speak. It also has to do with the fact that there is no back pressure in the cabin of the car. Think of your car as a speakerbox. If all the windows are up you could consider it a sealed box. If one is cracked, it is considered ported. Ported boxes are twice as loud as sealed boxes.
trunkisloud on 04/1/2007 01:01:24
that amp is probably plenty if not too much for the type s ....so no worries there
swez on 04/1/2007 14:21:34
Yes, this is like a pressure relief valve in many ways. The bass will be contained and sound pressure is restricted to some degree with the doors, windows and trunk/hatch closed. (High pressure containment)
When we open a vent, window or similar, bass pressure waves are expelled outside the vehicle. One can even note a degree of bass tuning properties by the amount of venting space we allow the bass waves to escape. (Like a ported sub enclosure)
That's all for now,
Swez
4runner on 04/1/2007 15:25:21
Thanks for the info everyone. That makes perfect sense.would you guys run that particular sub with that amp set at 2ohms or 4ohms? Thanks for any input.
swez on 04/1/2007 17:03:31
This sub is rated at 300 watts RMS power and can be used as 2 or 8 ohms, depending on how it's wired. Am not familiar with this PG amp version. Do you have specs or a web link for the PG XS2500?
I did find something on this amp. It's an older amp and now discontinued. It's a 2 channel amp and not best suited for a single Alpine 4+4 DVC sub. Here are the specs:
Max Continuous Bridged Power @ 1% THD 500 watts x 1 into 4 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
Max Continuous Power per Channel @ 1% THD 250 watts x 2 into 2 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
Nominal Continuous Power per Channel @ 1 % THD 150 Watts x 2 into 4 ohms @ 14.4 Vdc
IASCA/USAC Power Rating 50 Watts x 2 into 4 ohms @ 12.5 Vdc
In short form, running the sub off both channels bridged MONO and the sub coils wired at 8 ohms, will net about 250 watts RMS and be safe for the amp and sub.
The other safe option is to use only 1 channel of this amp and wire the sub for 2 ohms. Same power as noted above. If you added a 2nd SWS sub to match, then use channel 2 to power sub B. That would give some nice bump.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/1/2007 17:25:43
My setup sounds pretty dull without the passenger front window down. Sounds best with all 3 (LOL) down, but the rears won't really make a difference without at least having the front cracked. Sucks when it gets cold!
swez on 04/1/2007 23:43:19
Hope your Ghetto Hoopty Bucket has a good heater system in it. That year model did have a solid heater system when its working properly.
Swez
trunkisloud on 04/2/2007 00:27:33
yea my 86 lesabre heater works good ..but only on defrost
swez on 04/2/2007 09:47:37
That's probably the most important system anyway.
There's a series of ducts under the dash that are usually vacuum controlled by the heater control module. If the linkage is damaged or binding, a major dash removal job is often needed to repair that system. It could be as simple as a broken or loose cable that allows the heater duct mechanicals to change from defrost to floor or dash vents. Or, more complex like a bad vacuum leak, damaged directional vane or the vaccum motor has ruptured and cannot move to other positions.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/2/2007 10:03:27
Heater works great, fortunately enough, and I may have to drop the words Ghetto Hoopty off of the name in a few months as the car is slowly making a full 180 for the better. Still be a bucket though. Wouldn't have it any other wayPROUD
4runner on 04/2/2007 16:53:51
Hey Swez thanks for the help. I also have a kenwood excelon mono sub amp I could ose instead. Wasn't sure if it might be to much for my sub? It's a kenwood excelon model# kac-x401m. What do you think? I really appreciate everyones input, thanks...
swez on 04/2/2007 18:46:41
Yes, this Kenwood amp, (KAC-X401m) would work well with your SWS series sub. It is a mite strong at 2 ohms, but you can easily dial back to power by trimming the gain control.
This amp can put out up to 600 Wrms of power @ 2 ohms. Having an AC voltmeter handy, would be a good way to test the power at given gain settings so you don't fry the sub.
Nice amp BTW!
Here's the specs on that amp:
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Kenwood_KAC-X401M/
Swez
PS Your PG amp would make a nice full range amp for powering front and rear speakers too. It's too strong for stock speakers, but if you really wanted to upgrade to a very good Bass, Mid/Highs system over time, we can help get you there.
4runner on 04/3/2007 15:43:16
Thanks for the help Swez! I have an excelon deck that will let me adjust all the amp settings on that amp. From my head unit.with my PG all I have is an LPL.controler. Sounds like I will put in the ole excelon gear. I'll let you know how it turns out.Thanks again!!!
swez on 04/3/2007 15:54:33
4Runner,
This PG amp is full range and can easily be used for subs or full range speakers. The Remote you mentioned is only used to control the Bass Boost feature on this amp. It would not be needed for full range speakers though. This amp also has LP/HP variable filtering crossovers and you can use them or the HU crossover features if you wish. (Very strong amp here too... great for full range speakers and cutting through the heavy bass you will get from that Kenwood 401M)
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOXS2500
Specs: PG XS2500
Every XS Series amplifier "exceeds published power ratings" and comes with its own spec sheet.
Features:
Thermally Efficient Heatsink
Timed Acoustically Integrated Muting (TAIM)
Differential Speaker or RCA Level Inputs
Tri-Linear Capability Allows Simultaneous Stereo and Bridged Operation
24dB / Octave High-Pass and Low-Pass Crossover
Rnet Programmable 20Hz to 20kHz Crossover Frequency ***
Auxiliary Outputs Route Full Range Signals
Twin "T" Bass Circuit Provides Up to 18 dB of Boost at 45 Hz
Optional LPL44 Remote Bass Level Control
2 Ohm Bridged Stable
*** Note: This amp has LP/HP filters and can be used for bass or full range apps.
Nice amp too! (Why not use it if you can)
Swez
4runner on 04/4/2007 16:06:00
Swez, after a little thinking, I am going to keep my excelon head unit and my pg amp. I am going to get another sws-1242d. And run them bolth off the pg. I have infinity mids and highs, running on a 4 channel pg amp.allready, hopefully another alpine sub added in the mix will give me the extra bump I'm lookin for. My system already sounds beautifully clear and loud.the one sws sub hits brutaly hard so two ought to bee what I'm looking to achieve.any extra advice you my have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks againa, 4runner (sarasota florida)
swez on 04/4/2007 18:12:20
Yes, a 2nd SWS sub would be a good match for this amp when bridged MONO and wired for a net 4 ohms. (Series/parallel) This amp can deliver 250 Wrms/channel or 500 bridged and should give 2 subs a good kick as well.
Swez
4runner on 04/4/2007 20:11:10
THANKS SWEZ I'LL WORK ON THAT OVER THE NEXT WEEK OR SO AND LET YOU KNOW HOW THING WORK OUT. THANKS A TON 4RUNNER...
HPRacing on 04/4/2007 22:13:54
Are you talking about the backdoor window or the backseat ones? if you are talkign about the sound been more powerfull by opening the back rear door window, BIG NO. This is a problem and you might not see it soon but your subs are gonna blow from the inside coil by doing this. Yes not only does your sub is already on a box to maximize pressure but your car is aswell and ones you open anything in the car you will hear it louder but all the pressure that was inside will be so dangerous for the sub that I have seen some bad things happend to two $500 dollars each subs.Always open the window first and then if you want turn the music on; but never have the sub running and open the window. About having a better amp, it will always work but..theres a big but there, all depends on how good your instalation is. This industry is not about the brand as many like to believe is on the guy behind it installing it, if he's true and has heart it will show no matter if you have a 800 watts lancer or a 2300 MTX. Also you might want to search for a good amp only by their RMS never by their watts unless you are looking for a amp for your speakers or mids. I have seen a 1600 watt amp really amazing as well btw, when I read its book and I tested it; it only gave out 69 rpms. which in that case my mother cars radio would be more powerfull than the amp. Somethings to think about.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/4/2007 22:33:16
Although I agree that brand is not as important as installation, I would have to dissagree on the subject of opening the window causing damage. If this were caused by an air pressure in the cabin, the same thing would basically occur every time a person rolled through a Micky D's drive thru.
Openeing a window releases pressure, it doesn't cause it to be contained. Thats where having the difference in window up or window down comes into play. It sounds better with it down usually because of instead of being trapped, it has somewhere to go, flows better, and nets us a better sound.
If this were caused by changing the point of deflection of bass, you would blow a sub if you turned the box around.
And finally, a sub is optimized for a specific size of airspace in a box, and in a sealed box, we do have a degree of pressure pulling back on the sub, no sub is truly optimized for a specific pressure on the other side of the cone. If this were the case, a specific set of subs would be neded for specific vehicles.
BTW RMS is wattage, just the true, continuios wattage. Peak wattage is the amount of watts an amp can give for a small fraction of a second. Generally a number manufacturers use to hook a sucker.
cplkittle on 04/4/2007 23:04:27
Rolling your window down will not damage the sub!!!
I don't know where you are getting this information, but you are way off. I am not trying to bash you here, just trying to prevent any unnecessary worries.
Just out of curiosity, how did you test the 1600 watt amplifier that only produced 69 watts? I know there is alot of overrating in the car audio world, but not that severe.
HPRacing on 04/4/2007 23:29:13
You are right. RMS are wattz, when I mentioned it was because most people or customers I have ran upon only seem to read the labels on the box that say on big numbers how much wattz the amp is going to give, and most of the amps I have delt with are sorry to say quite crappy when it comes to upholding true power and lasting life while at work.
Now about the window conversation, one reason why I ask if it was the back door window or backseat was precisely the answer you gave out, if its the inside windows where people sit yea it brings out more power and sound and no it would never harm the subs, yet what I was mentioning when I said "Thats a Big No" was more of a cuation thing because just like you said no harm in opening any of the front windows but if he was playing the music and had the bass all the way up and opened the back door's window or the hole door itself , say to show off for a few minutes, I have myself done this and it has cost me quite a penny to buy new subs. It is more likely and faster of a visual to recognize the nice boom impact it makes if it was in a car, yet since he has a Runner the entire car is opened on the inside so it would take more time and more open and close of the back door but none the less it would happend if it is done as many times as required for that sub to blow up from the coil. I got one more thing to say about the boom boxes but I have some other important business to attend to right now, 2 things I would liek to know, how long have you been in the industry? just personnally asking and 2 I'll check up on this later on lol gtg. BTW who ever made this site, is a real life saver. I haven't talked to anyone about sounds sistems and my personall expirience with anyone and always wanted to expand my knowladge with someone.
cplkittle on 04/4/2007 23:44:15
The box, whether ported, sealed, 4th order, 6th order, transmission line, or folded horn is the deciding factor in how the sub performs. The box is the only thing that affects the performance of the sub and it's longevity as far as backpressure is concerned. I have a Kia sportage, and I often show off with all doors and the hatch open. It's all about the box.
I have been a car audio junkie since I was a teenager (early 90's).
I have worked on and off for shops for several years. I managed one for over a year before moving on. I prefer the install bay over the office.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 00:14:47
Lmao, (coinsidence) kia sportage...I remember I built a nice and sweet audio around a kia rio stationwagon, very nice car two. Very nice, the fact you have been for so much in this industry, Family onwed a audio store back in Puerto Rico and I was the student for installing audio, I learned some thing and came to love the industry. I haven't been on it for quite a while now so I might not know whats new.
About where i get my info from...nothign but pure personal and first hand expirience, (just like when I saw...or should I say made a caps blew up for inverting the cables), like I said my family own the store and i was a student at it so I had to test things out. How did I test it? I might not quite remember the whole procedure right now..its been quite a while since I have touched a audio cable, but I do remember the tester, the one with the numbers and the two cables coming from it that you attach to the end of the connecter from the amp that feed audio to the subs...I know; I know that was way to long of an explanation, its been years. And believe me yes it is that far jacked up the amps, I dont know with what types of amps you have worked on but when like me you work with amps that come from taiwan or china they tend to be quite...surprising, cplkittle what do you think about the new ways they use for box, the molded ones, not sure how they are called. I think they use fiber glass and mold it to the cars interiors shape..personnally to me that just looks pretty, not effective, but thats my opinion, whats yours?
swez on 04/5/2007 01:03:25
Welcome to CK there HP!
There are several seasoned installers on this site and a few die-hard system designers/engineers too. Between us, we probably have over 30 years of combined experience in one form or another.
As you say, the enclosure is pressurized and also the cabin. But a good sub of todays' calibur should stand up to an open door, window or hatch if the user has observed the enclosure specs for a given sub. The box provides adequate back pressure to keep the sub from over-excursion. (Even is we open a door or hatch) It boils down to X-max parameters of a given sub. If we stay in the target range of a given sub, it will survive.
Now, if you are talking extreme SPL Comps installs, that a horse of a different color. In that scenario, The tighter the cabin from leaks and such, the more SPL is trapped inside the vehicle. (Higher SPL #'s) Most guys here are a mix of SPL/SQL. Few run only SPL COMPS as a daily driver and we cater primarily to SQL and SQ apps. If one is soley interested in max SPL, we can only take them so far. (It's not the main focus of this site.
Uhmmm, have been on this site for over 8 years now and still have much to learn about certain aspects of car audio. Have also been into Pro Audio design, installs and the like for over 10+ years as well. (Mostly live sound reinforcement, stage monitoring and some studio monitor designs as well. Am not claiming to be an expert in all cases, but after over 20 years + in this field, few can catch me napping for long. (Same with Kittle and a few others)
FYI: The fried woofers you mentioned earlier, were they ported, BP, EBS enclosure designs? It sounds like the enclosure design was on the "hairy fringe" of X-max when installed. Sub technology has made a quantum leap or two in the past few years and those subs were just not able to take the transition. They either greatly exceeded X-max or were over-powered to the point of failure with only minor air pressure changes to the cabin.
In the sub world today, most premium subs can handle such annomolies and come back for more. Older subs were not as robust and just a minor deviation would be enough to push them past the point to failure. (Save for perhaps the Vega Strokers)
Swez
jamesp on 04/5/2007 07:41:12
GRIN CLAP
swez on 04/5/2007 09:15:50
What's that all about Jimmy? SMILE
Swez...
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 09:43:25
I have personally been involved with car audio about four years now, but never on a truly proffessional basis. I am known throughout the hood as the "stereo guy," and I am usually the first person people turn to around my home for audio questions, since no shops will answer a question around here without trying to rob you on a new system. I've been kickin around here since around Sept. or Oct.
Again, I am not trying to bash, but I am absolutely confident in the fact that no rolling down of windows will damage a modern sub. I have had subs close enough to my rear door window, and have openend enough hatchbacks and trunks with the systems blaring enough times to be fully confident on this. have even done such with various older subs, and some ratty *** house woofers and never had a problem.
If this really ocurred in your vehicle, I would say you had a massive fluke happen to you, and some probably defective woofers.
My guess on what would fry a sub that way would be some sort of noise or short caused by working the switch on a rear window. I would have blown thousands of subs if this was really a common problem.
swez on 04/5/2007 10:01:52
That said it well in street language most can understand. LOL
What is a *** house woofer anyway? Nevermind, I may not really want to know that answer anyway but get the general idea. (I take it you mean a cheap or crappy woofer or enclosure combo) hehe
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:09:45
I was refering to the homonym for a donkey. Ratty just seemed to sound best paired up with said donkey reference. And I am more than sure judging by my current system, (which is Almost the best I ever had), one can assume I have seen the rattiest of the ratty, and still used them. My favorite to date: a bandpass 6.5 rated at 45 watts peak, from a DVD player with a built in 5.1 surround amp. I am suprised this thing still works, but now I use it as a test load when testing amps.
jamesp on 04/5/2007 10:35:00
Swez, my post, or lack of post above is just a graphic representation of the fact that I liked what you said and liked the way you said it......and I deleted my post as it could have possibly been considered inappropriate so I emoti-CONNED my way out of itGRIN
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:38:35
Gettin all innapproite like on us, there, Jimmy? I reckon there is no need for that there, but emoticons are cool.
swez on 04/5/2007 10:45:15
Ahhh, I see the picture now. A man of few words is often a sign of wisdom and learning. I need some work on that one admittedly. GRIN
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/5/2007 10:49:09
Word. I should probably zip it more frequently myself.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 11:20:58
Nice, very nice info there swiz. I obviously went out of the industry for far to long. I do enjoy the info on audio, yes when I referred to them blowing up is when one uses to much distortion to make pressure. Like me I dont know about must of you but about now I cant run unless is no higher than 170db, I just cant feel it anymore. Shootuh yes now I that I read some of you guys responses I see that new subs have ressisteance but when i reffered to it was of expirience say back in 98-99, and like I told swez I only ride with no less than 170 so thats why I kept saying it dows blows, imagine 170 in the trunk of a mitsubishi mirage 2 doors and all the sudden you pop it open to show off...thats is a nasty site, it almost looks retarded how the just sort of pop out and die on you.BTW theres no bashin in it for me I havent been in this for a while so if you guys deal with new tech probably will be waydiferent from what i used to deal with so I might talk about somwhtign happend to me but tech today may have worked up on it, so pls do share anything I love info on audio, what I will do say is that I do more with my hands than with words, so sometimes I might come up with halfway info and that is because I know hwo to make it happend but do not know how to talk about it ot refered to it in words for people.
jamesp on 04/5/2007 11:48:48
Wow, what was the world record in 1998, 171dB or so with 50 amps and the doors bolted shut and bullet proof glass. Yes at those levels a sudden window opening is going to break something for sure.163dB can open your windows all by itself. I take it that you were not playing music with this system.
HPRacing on 04/5/2007 11:54:12
lol no its a made cd for competitions only, it makes a wistheling noise three times and then it tried to blow your subs out, the purpose it obvious to see hwo has the best sound pressure. I've seen bad stuff happend to good sound sistems, its almost funny.
4runner on 04/5/2007 19:57:16
Swez,
I have always had my sub or sub's rearward facing in a various number of cars. However they have all had a trunk. My 4runner has a completely open cab you could say (no trunk). If this were your truck with my system, considering I am going to add to it another sws-1242D over the weekend, in a Q-logic ported enclosure. Would you face sub's front or to the rear.
Thanks for your expertise. 4runner
cplkittle on 04/5/2007 20:02:11
I really want to see some pictures of a 170dB+ Mirage.
swez on 04/5/2007 20:08:13
In most cases, rearward facing subs sound the best in most vehicles. Feel free to experiment if you like and change the firing direction of this sub and/or the 2nd one when installed and see where the sweet spot is.
In most cases, we get very good results in small SUV's with the subs butted up to the rear seat backs, but firing toward the tailgate.
Try them all and see what you like best.
Swez
4runner on 04/5/2007 20:49:08
Thanks, swez I will try bolth and see what sounds best. I was looking for my users manual for my pg xs2500 and I can't find it. Do you know where I can a free download able version?
Thanks, 4runner
cplkittle on 04/5/2007 20:54:18
ftp://208.187.38.55/Phoenix_Gold/Manuals/Amplifiers/XS/
The 2500 is not listed, but the 2200, 2300, and 6600 are.
I didn't see anything else.
swez on 04/6/2007 08:31:03
If you open the file that says "xs2chan.pdf", it has the 2300 and 2500 specs and install instructions.
One thing that is unique about this amp, it is rated at 2 ohms stable when bridged MONO and 1 ohm stable in stereo mode. That's very unusual for most Class A/B amps, but a definite plus as it acts more like like a High Current, (HC) class A/B amp. A nice feature to be sure.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 04/6/2007 09:40:14
That's pretty sweet. I always use 2ohm mono operation with 2 channels, but I always break the rules with stuff like that. I am sure if I cranked the gain any higher for very long though, the amp I have would revolt.
4runner on 04/6/2007 15:47:40
Thanks for the info guys.
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