Hello guys I will be doing some extensive re-adjusting and fine tuning to my system now that my equipment is back in order. My goal is to maximize the performance of each stage component in my system utalizing your expertise. Swez, hopefully you can help me as you have done a great job initially, coaching me with this initial install. I feel as though after some equipment failure (warranty service needed) and experimentation of amp settings I need professional advice and help tweaking and tuning of amps.
FRONT STAGE
a/d/s/ 346cs 61/2" comps powered by a JL 300/2
Ok, woofere are mounted in the front door stock locations in a custom air tight housing. Doors completelly are heavily deadened with Raamat. Tweeters are mounted in the dash aimed toward the windshield and sound excellant with +3dB attenuation setting. Woofers lack lower midrange and midbass region( no kick here at all).
I currently have the crossover networks mounted under the dash and I have the crossovers bi-wired with 12awg knuconceptz bi-wire due to mounting location (as an experiment do to the distance the crossovers are mounted from the amp in the trunk). This experiment failed due to the fact that the 300/2 does not accept the 2ea12awg wires per terminal very well. I have purchased 10awg karma kable and will be rewiring the crossovers to amp for a better connection.
AMP SETTINGS 300/2
These are my current settings, please advise me of any changes needed.
preamp output section---(high pass) not used here
amp filter control--- freq range (x1), filter freq (80Hz), filter mode (hp)
amp input section--input voltage (low)
input voltage sensativity set to (24.5V)
Where should my freq range setting be? x1 or x10
REAR STAGE CDT CL-69X w/ 560 crossover upgrade and TW-24 tweet powered by a JL A2150
Not issues here other than the 6x9 woofers used here are very average and do not put out ANY thump in the lower midrange to midbass region at all. Swez and I have been there already!
amp settings JL A2150
filter mode (HP)
filter freq (80Hz)
input sens(V13.4)
BASS ENGINE 12W7 tuned enclosure 32Hz JL 1000/1
amp settings
Infrasonic filter (ON 30Hz )
Q (1.)
center freq (35)
bass eq (ON)
bass boost (+2)
amp lp filter mode/slope (12dB)
filter freq (80Hz)
input voltage (low)
input sens (54.7V)
I will be installing a RBC-1 bass control from 1000/1 for bass boost adjustments at the dash. reccomended settings on 1000/1 according to my 12W7 manual with the use of the RBC-1 are as follows
Q (1.1)
center freq (45Hz)
bass boost (0)
LPF (85Hz)
One thing I am not clear on is input voltage setting LOW/HIGH with the use of my Pioneer 7800mp HU with a preamp voltage of 5V. My JL amp manuals say LOW input voltage should be used, however the gain adjustments on the full range amps meets max unclipped output at almost max gain. A multimeter and a 1KH test tone are used to calibrate gains here.
I know this is a lot of info but if you guys have time please review my settings and let me know if you see any adjustments that may be in line. I am hoping the RBC-1 will allow me to achieve a boost in clean bass responce over a wider freq range. Maybe you guys have some ideas for increasing bass responce from the a/d/s/ woofers?
Thanks for all feedback.
Demetrios
Replies (14)
swez on 03/8/2007 05:10:18
Hey Demetrios,
Your amp output voltages are right on target for each amp. Am wondering if your mid/high speakers can handle a slight adjustment to the HPF's for improving MB punch. Try lowering the HPF settings on your 300/2 and e-2150 to say 60-70 Hz and see how that works out. This should give you a few more dB below 80 Hz. If the speakers begin to rattle or sound rough, we'll try a different approach.
As for your 1000/1, adjust the LPF on this amp to say 100 Hz. This will give you more upper bass punch and perhaps a little bump in SPL as well.
By doing this adjustment plan, we get a wider overlap between the HP/LP filters on all amps. My hope is this is additive for MB performance and not cause undue cancellations to the point where MB punch is actually degraded.
If this is not to your satisfaction, we'll go another route on the next go round.
Your PEQ settings on this HU can also help. What are the present setting for each of the 7 bands now?
1. Center freq.
2. "Q" factor
3. Cut or boost number for each band? (1-7)
As for the signal source used on your amp gain settings, try using Pink noise as the signal for mid/highs and recheck your voltage readings. It should give you a better reference point than a 1KHz test tone. Do this with your sub amp turned off. Then add the sub amp once you have dialed in your mid/highs. (Just pull the RCA cables out of the 1000/1 and cap/tape them off so they don't ground out or short)
Swez
PS A laptop with an RTA program installed and using a calibrated mike would be most helpful for this stage of tuning.
MrBrownstone on 03/8/2007 14:38:25
SIDE NOTE: I wish everyone gave us this detail when posting. It makes it much easier. PROUD
A few easy comments, the more equipment you have dividing the signal (biwiring to me means bi-amping), the more difficulties you'll have with sensitivity.
The component woofers are likely suffering from 2 of the following problems:
1. They are designed for free air...larger enclosure or open air
2. They are not designed to put out a lot of deep bass...< 80Hz
3. Crossover set too high
4. Crossover slope rates don't match, phase issues
I would consider setting your component crossover at 60Hz, not 80. The 6x9s, 50Hz would be better.
Tell me about this:
"...input voltage sensativity set to (24.5V)..."
they list Input Range: 200mV – 8V RMS which is very typical of the industry.
MrBrownstone on 03/8/2007 14:45:53
PS if you crossover rates are 12dB & 18dB, they are partially out of phase and you'll see cancellation that way.
The fewer crossovers the better
swez on 03/8/2007 17:22:59
Dem and I have worked extensively on this project for a long time and he is very well able to spit out the key points as needed. Gotta love working with guys like him huh?
Sensitivity here means his gain settings and voltage output readings from each amp at the appropriate load before clipping becomes an issue. At this point, the HU is a bit low on RCA voltage per amp, but enough to reach target voltages from all amps.
Also, the front doors are matted and to some extent, so are the rear speakers. They still are more like "Free Air" then any real enclosure. The problem he seems to be having is the lower MB performance is lacking from both front and rear speakers. Part of this is the vehicle, while some of it is also the speakers. The A/D/S Comps up front, just lack the low punch he desires and we're trying to figure out ways to get that up to par with the rest of the system.
More later...
demetman on 03/8/2007 22:28:47
Thank you for the feedback guys. It will be a week or so untill I can p/u my HU and amp from service and reinstall the equipment with the changes noted. I will certainly make the changes on the lower crossover settings and document results.
Could someone please help me understand and select the proper settings for the 300/2. This info is stated dirrectly from my manual.
"Depending on the speaker system and the vehicle, different filter slopes may be required to produce a smooth transition between the sound of different speakers in the system. Experiment to findwhich slope best matches the acoustic requirements of the system. The sharper "24dB" setting will do a better job of protecting small speakers with limited power handeling. The shallower "12dB" octave setting allows the rear speakers to produce more low-frequency content.'
"Freq Range" Control: When thrown to the right, this switch multiplies the cutoff frequency selected by the rotary "filter Freq"(Hz) by a factor of 10. In the "x1" position, the range of rotary control is 50-500Hz (as marked). In the "x10" position the range of rotary control is 500Hz-5Kz (5000Hz)".
This info regarding "Amplifier Input Section" has also been taken from the 300/2 manual as I could use some clarification here as well.
"Input Voltage Range": A wide range of signal input voltages can be accomplished by the 300/2's input section (200mV-8V). This wide range is split up into two sub-ranges, accessible via a switch located in the " Amplifier Input Section".
The "LOW" position on the' Input Voltage' switch selects an input sensitivity range between 200mV-2V. This means that the "Input Sens." rotary control will operate within that voltage window. If you are using an aftermarket source unit, with conventional preamp-level outputs, this is most likely the position you will use".
The"HIGH" position on the "Input Voltage" switch selects an input sensitivity range between 800mV-8V. This is useful for certain high-output preamp level signals as well as speaker- level output from source units and small amplifiers.
Would my HU (pioneer P7800MP) be considered to produce high-output preamp level signal, warranting a "HIGH" selection on the "Input Voltage"switch? Maybe the current "LOW" selection is an explanation of almost max gain when input voltage sensitivity is met at max un-clipped voltage (24.5V)? Just some deeper thinking and some clarification on this setting needed. Thanks again for your coments and input.
Demetrios
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 03/8/2007 23:54:06
Your deck is a 5 volt preout, and in this case you would definitely want to use the "HIGH" input in this case. This may explain how you can turn your gain nearly full without clipping, but I was thinking this would be the opposite. I have never worked with JL epuipment before, so I am not sure. Perhaps the amp won't take anymore input voltage after the 2V mark. I see you are using the low setting. Definitely try using the high setting, but crank down your gain some first.
I am not quite an expert like Swez or Mr. B, but this is my personal observation. How are you bi wiring your mids and tweets though? I am trying to think of how this is done with only a two channel and an full front/ rear stage.
swez on 03/9/2007 00:32:17
Based on the output voltage your amps are netting, the LOW sensitivity selector on your JL amps, are the correct ones to use for this HU. The High sensitivity selector would be OK if you had a Line Driver or used HU speaker signals and ran them through the RCA inputs. (It appears this HU is rated at 5 volts, but not at the input impedence of your JL amps) From what I gather from your present amp settings, this HU is really delivering about 1 volt from each RCA set. (F,R & S) But that is enough to get these amps up to target voltage. The numbers mentioned show you are indeed hitting target output voltages now.
FYI: As long as the amp gain settings used, provides the proper output voltage, it does not matter where the gain settings are on the amps. (You are there on all counts as mentioned)
Quote: "Freq Range" Control: When thrown to the right, this switch multiplies the cutoff frequency selected by the rotary "filter Freq" (Hz) by a factor of 10. In the "x1" position, the range of rotary control is 50-500Hz (as marked). In the "x10" position the range of rotary control is 500Hz-5Kz (5000Hz)".
This means if the selector is set at the "x1" position, that is the frequency noted on the dial where the filter begins to work. (Example: Say we want the crossovers' HPF set at 60 Hz. We select the "x1" position and set the dial to 60 Hz. If we use the "x10" selector, the HPF is now at 600 Hz.) Got all that? It's a multiplier switch.
Quote: "Depending on the speaker system and the vehicle, different filter slopes may be required to produce a smooth transition between the sound of different speakers in the system. Experiment to find which slope best matches the acoustic requirements of the system. The sharper "24dB" setting will do a better job of protecting small speakers with limited power handeling. The shallower "12dB" octave setting allows the rear speakers to produce more low-frequency content."
Here, the manual is stating we can use the gradual -12dB HPF for larger speakers. (6", 6.5", 6x8" & 6x9" speakers) If using smaller format speakers like, (3.5", 4x6, 4" and 5.25") we would want a -24dB slope to block low frequencies faster and protect the smaller format drivers.
Also. if the HU has filters, (This Pioneer does) using both the HU & amp filters will compound the effects. (Faster rolloff slopes and less MB to speakers) In this case, disable the HU crossovers and use the amps' crossovers. Use the -12dB selection as you have larger speakers that can handle the power.
Hope that clarifies and de-mystifies things for you Dem!
Best regards,
Swez
PS Shoot, just because a HU boast a high output signal, that does not always apply to all amps. Most car audio amps have a high input impedence value of 1,000 to 10,000 ohms. If the HU rates its voltage output at 100 ohms impedence or less, but the amp input impedence is much higher, the HU numbers are only a marketing ploy.
There are many tricks and ploys that are not widely known in car audio. They can make such claims and get away with it because the average consumer is not all that savvy and there are few regulations/standards that limit the claims made. As one gets deeper into this field, this will become evident. But for the "apprectice", these tricks and deceptions are hard to spot unless one knows where to look and how to interpret the less obvious. As with most things in this world, question everything do not take all things at face value. COFFEE
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 03/9/2007 03:42:40
Thanks Swez. I don't usually judge by face value, and Pioneer's a brand I don't really trust. Always appreciate a good lesson though, I had no Idea about the effects of RCA impendance on amps. Thanks for the FYI
PS-My Bad Coach GRIN
swez on 03/9/2007 08:45:22
Bad to da Bone Coach...hehe
It's not just Pioneer that does this type of thing. (The DEH-P7800MP is rated at 5 volts @ 100 ohms)
Eclipse does the same thing and rates their HU's at 5 volts, (55 ohms) load impedence. (But at least they state the parameters)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MsBGbPaG3sP/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=detailed_info&i=099CD7000#Tab
This is not what all HU makers do, but several brands are more prone to such practices then others.
The main thing here, most modern model amps can deliver full power with as little as 0.25 volts. One just needs to know how to measure the output voltage to insure their gain settings are correct.
Swez COFFEE
demetman on 03/9/2007 08:55:45
Thanks Swez, you do have a way of translating technical info into a more comprehendable understanding. I know my Pioneer HU preamps do not put out 5V and the X1 input setting is very clear now simply just a multiplier for a crossover freq range. A shallower -12dB HPF setting is now the obvious chioce for my component application especially with the high power handeling of the speakers(150W RMS) and the lack of MB responce. I'll keep you posted with my results as info is obtained. Looks like a break in weather this up and coming week! Almost time to lube up the fishing reels and dig out the tackle for spring.
demetman on 03/9/2007 09:20:35
Shootuh, the a/d/s/ 346cs comps were bi-wired as an experiment to note an increase in SQ utelizing thicker guage wire (12awg) and connecting the wire to both woofer + and - & both tweeter + & - inputs from my two channel amp. This connection is shown in my a/d/s/ manual and is recommended for installations where the crossover networks are mounted far from the amplifier. These special bi-wire Knukonceptz twisted pair have 2+ and 2- wires per wire run, one for each channel. It is obvious that these wires allow more current to move through to the crossovers but 2+ & 2- wires are a bit to bulky for each amp terminal to accept.
As a result I purchased 10awg wire and will re-wire using the standard connection. I understand your inquirey here as I researched this wiring method extensivelly, got the approval from JL to do so and tried it. Honestly I think there may have been a slight improvement in sound with the car in park, but on the road that improvement in SQ was masked by road noise. Swez, advised me before I conducted this experiment that this would yeild minimal results if any. I'm glad I took the time and resources to do this, because know I know for sure that bi-wiring (without bi-amping) is not woth the effort. Hope that clears things up.
Demetrios
demetman on 03/13/2007 19:28:13
Ok, guys here is a follow up on this topic. I spent a few hours today reinstalling my HU, rewiring my a/d/s/ crossovers with 10awg wire, installing a remote bass control nob to 1000/1 and reinstalling my repaired 300/2. My 300/2 came back from JL with an incident report indicating that the output circuit was found to be defective due to an open gate resistor. This is what caused my tweeter to make a hissing staticky noise.
My 300/2 HPF set to 65Hz, Input voltage set at X1, Filter Slope12dB and input voltage 24.5V. After a quick listen, WOW the midrange is quite a bit stronger and the highs are so loud I can't believe the output. With this amp operating the way it should I believe there is at least a +6db increase in highs alone! My ears are now crippled.
The 1000/1 was next with the LPF set to 100Hz, the SS Filter was lowered to 25H, Q 1.1, CF, 45Hz, Filter Slope set at 24 dB and input voltage set at 54.7V.
Last the a2150 was dialed in to 12.8V and the LPF set at 60Hz. When I first crancked her up the front comps overpowered everything leaving very little bass from the 12W7 and no rear fill tobe heard from CDT 6X9's. These a/d/s/ comps are now rediculous and would EASILY over power 2 -12W7 and 2-1000/1's with astonishing clarity at max input voltage. With a 1/4 boost of the RBC-1 the bass kicks up but still falls short to the front comps. I used to listen to my system at around 45 on the volume dial(max is 62) and now at 35 my ears are instantly fatigued.
After dialing back on the gain on the 300/2 I was able to reach a higher volume level allowing the sub to pick up and do it's thing. The CDT 6x9's did not put aout any additional bass with a lower LPF setting. I definatelly have more tweaking to experiment with to balance things out, just ran out of light today. More follow ups later
Demetrios
swez on 03/13/2007 20:32:04
Ahhh, the ADS Comps are Alive "Johnny 5" !!! Good, now that you have all that squared away, dialing back the gain on the 300/2 will give extra "headroom" for transient peaks in their new range of operation. Check that amp for a bit more heat as it will be working harder than before.
We seem to be lacking in the rear fill Phil... am wondering if a little more amping power would get your CDT's up to snuff. Or, consider upping the ante to Infinity 6x9 Coaxials with 2 ohms. Now, your getting ~50 Wrms per 4 ohm with the e-2150. With 2 ohm speakers and higher efficiency levels, should push about 75-85 Wrms @ 2 ohms in stereo back there. Your call Paul... The speakers would be cheaper to replace than the amp, but more effort too.
Sub... what can we do now? It seems you have pretty well max'd out this sub/amp combo and your present electrical supply too. Adding a 2nd 1000/1 and another 12W7, (Vented) could anticipate another +4-6dB of bass SPL. A pretty expensive upgrade, to be sure huh? Not to mention electrical issues we have discussed too.
Where does it all end friend?
Swez
PS Am leaving for Florida tomorrow and will have 2 days of drive time. I may not have much time on the Internet over the next 2 weeks unless I can find a place that allows me to plug in and sit for a while to do some follow up posts. However, where there's a will, there's a way huh?
The other option is me calling you from a cell phone. Shoot me a quick e-mail with your phone # and best time to chat. I will also pass my cell number back to you via reply.
swez on 03/13/2007 20:53:08
Hey Demitrios, check your e-mail...
Swez
FRONT STAGE
a/d/s/ 346cs 61/2" comps powered by a JL 300/2
Ok, woofere are mounted in the front door stock locations in a custom air tight housing. Doors completelly are heavily deadened with Raamat. Tweeters are mounted in the dash aimed toward the windshield and sound excellant with +3dB attenuation setting. Woofers lack lower midrange and midbass region( no kick here at all).
I currently have the crossover networks mounted under the dash and I have the crossovers bi-wired with 12awg knuconceptz bi-wire due to mounting location (as an experiment do to the distance the crossovers are mounted from the amp in the trunk). This experiment failed due to the fact that the 300/2 does not accept the 2ea12awg wires per terminal very well. I have purchased 10awg karma kable and will be rewiring the crossovers to amp for a better connection.
AMP SETTINGS 300/2
These are my current settings, please advise me of any changes needed.
preamp output section---(high pass) not used here
amp filter control--- freq range (x1), filter freq (80Hz), filter mode (hp)
amp input section--input voltage (low)
input voltage sensativity set to (24.5V)
Where should my freq range setting be? x1 or x10
REAR STAGE CDT CL-69X w/ 560 crossover upgrade and TW-24 tweet powered by a JL A2150
Not issues here other than the 6x9 woofers used here are very average and do not put out ANY thump in the lower midrange to midbass region at all. Swez and I have been there already!
amp settings JL A2150
filter mode (HP)
filter freq (80Hz)
input sens(V13.4)
BASS ENGINE 12W7 tuned enclosure 32Hz JL 1000/1
amp settings
Infrasonic filter (ON 30Hz )
Q (1.)
center freq (35)
bass eq (ON)
bass boost (+2)
amp lp filter mode/slope (12dB)
filter freq (80Hz)
input voltage (low)
input sens (54.7V)
I will be installing a RBC-1 bass control from 1000/1 for bass boost adjustments at the dash. reccomended settings on 1000/1 according to my 12W7 manual with the use of the RBC-1 are as follows
Q (1.1)
center freq (45Hz)
bass boost (0)
LPF (85Hz)
One thing I am not clear on is input voltage setting LOW/HIGH with the use of my Pioneer 7800mp HU with a preamp voltage of 5V. My JL amp manuals say LOW input voltage should be used, however the gain adjustments on the full range amps meets max unclipped output at almost max gain. A multimeter and a 1KH test tone are used to calibrate gains here.
I know this is a lot of info but if you guys have time please review my settings and let me know if you see any adjustments that may be in line. I am hoping the RBC-1 will allow me to achieve a boost in clean bass responce over a wider freq range. Maybe you guys have some ideas for increasing bass responce from the a/d/s/ woofers?
Thanks for all feedback.
Demetrios
Replies (14)
swez on 03/8/2007 05:10:18
Hey Demetrios,
Your amp output voltages are right on target for each amp. Am wondering if your mid/high speakers can handle a slight adjustment to the HPF's for improving MB punch. Try lowering the HPF settings on your 300/2 and e-2150 to say 60-70 Hz and see how that works out. This should give you a few more dB below 80 Hz. If the speakers begin to rattle or sound rough, we'll try a different approach.
As for your 1000/1, adjust the LPF on this amp to say 100 Hz. This will give you more upper bass punch and perhaps a little bump in SPL as well.
By doing this adjustment plan, we get a wider overlap between the HP/LP filters on all amps. My hope is this is additive for MB performance and not cause undue cancellations to the point where MB punch is actually degraded.
If this is not to your satisfaction, we'll go another route on the next go round.
Your PEQ settings on this HU can also help. What are the present setting for each of the 7 bands now?
1. Center freq.
2. "Q" factor
3. Cut or boost number for each band? (1-7)
As for the signal source used on your amp gain settings, try using Pink noise as the signal for mid/highs and recheck your voltage readings. It should give you a better reference point than a 1KHz test tone. Do this with your sub amp turned off. Then add the sub amp once you have dialed in your mid/highs. (Just pull the RCA cables out of the 1000/1 and cap/tape them off so they don't ground out or short)
Swez
PS A laptop with an RTA program installed and using a calibrated mike would be most helpful for this stage of tuning.
MrBrownstone on 03/8/2007 14:38:25
SIDE NOTE: I wish everyone gave us this detail when posting. It makes it much easier. PROUD
A few easy comments, the more equipment you have dividing the signal (biwiring to me means bi-amping), the more difficulties you'll have with sensitivity.
The component woofers are likely suffering from 2 of the following problems:
1. They are designed for free air...larger enclosure or open air
2. They are not designed to put out a lot of deep bass...< 80Hz
3. Crossover set too high
4. Crossover slope rates don't match, phase issues
I would consider setting your component crossover at 60Hz, not 80. The 6x9s, 50Hz would be better.
Tell me about this:
"...input voltage sensativity set to (24.5V)..."
they list Input Range: 200mV – 8V RMS which is very typical of the industry.
MrBrownstone on 03/8/2007 14:45:53
PS if you crossover rates are 12dB & 18dB, they are partially out of phase and you'll see cancellation that way.
The fewer crossovers the better
swez on 03/8/2007 17:22:59
Dem and I have worked extensively on this project for a long time and he is very well able to spit out the key points as needed. Gotta love working with guys like him huh?
Sensitivity here means his gain settings and voltage output readings from each amp at the appropriate load before clipping becomes an issue. At this point, the HU is a bit low on RCA voltage per amp, but enough to reach target voltages from all amps.
Also, the front doors are matted and to some extent, so are the rear speakers. They still are more like "Free Air" then any real enclosure. The problem he seems to be having is the lower MB performance is lacking from both front and rear speakers. Part of this is the vehicle, while some of it is also the speakers. The A/D/S Comps up front, just lack the low punch he desires and we're trying to figure out ways to get that up to par with the rest of the system.
More later...
demetman on 03/8/2007 22:28:47
Thank you for the feedback guys. It will be a week or so untill I can p/u my HU and amp from service and reinstall the equipment with the changes noted. I will certainly make the changes on the lower crossover settings and document results.
Could someone please help me understand and select the proper settings for the 300/2. This info is stated dirrectly from my manual.
"Depending on the speaker system and the vehicle, different filter slopes may be required to produce a smooth transition between the sound of different speakers in the system. Experiment to findwhich slope best matches the acoustic requirements of the system. The sharper "24dB" setting will do a better job of protecting small speakers with limited power handeling. The shallower "12dB" octave setting allows the rear speakers to produce more low-frequency content.'
"Freq Range" Control: When thrown to the right, this switch multiplies the cutoff frequency selected by the rotary "filter Freq"(Hz) by a factor of 10. In the "x1" position, the range of rotary control is 50-500Hz (as marked). In the "x10" position the range of rotary control is 500Hz-5Kz (5000Hz)".
This info regarding "Amplifier Input Section" has also been taken from the 300/2 manual as I could use some clarification here as well.
"Input Voltage Range": A wide range of signal input voltages can be accomplished by the 300/2's input section (200mV-8V). This wide range is split up into two sub-ranges, accessible via a switch located in the " Amplifier Input Section".
The "LOW" position on the' Input Voltage' switch selects an input sensitivity range between 200mV-2V. This means that the "Input Sens." rotary control will operate within that voltage window. If you are using an aftermarket source unit, with conventional preamp-level outputs, this is most likely the position you will use".
The"HIGH" position on the "Input Voltage" switch selects an input sensitivity range between 800mV-8V. This is useful for certain high-output preamp level signals as well as speaker- level output from source units and small amplifiers.
Would my HU (pioneer P7800MP) be considered to produce high-output preamp level signal, warranting a "HIGH" selection on the "Input Voltage"switch? Maybe the current "LOW" selection is an explanation of almost max gain when input voltage sensitivity is met at max un-clipped voltage (24.5V)? Just some deeper thinking and some clarification on this setting needed. Thanks again for your coments and input.
Demetrios
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 03/8/2007 23:54:06
Your deck is a 5 volt preout, and in this case you would definitely want to use the "HIGH" input in this case. This may explain how you can turn your gain nearly full without clipping, but I was thinking this would be the opposite. I have never worked with JL epuipment before, so I am not sure. Perhaps the amp won't take anymore input voltage after the 2V mark. I see you are using the low setting. Definitely try using the high setting, but crank down your gain some first.
I am not quite an expert like Swez or Mr. B, but this is my personal observation. How are you bi wiring your mids and tweets though? I am trying to think of how this is done with only a two channel and an full front/ rear stage.
swez on 03/9/2007 00:32:17
Based on the output voltage your amps are netting, the LOW sensitivity selector on your JL amps, are the correct ones to use for this HU. The High sensitivity selector would be OK if you had a Line Driver or used HU speaker signals and ran them through the RCA inputs. (It appears this HU is rated at 5 volts, but not at the input impedence of your JL amps) From what I gather from your present amp settings, this HU is really delivering about 1 volt from each RCA set. (F,R & S) But that is enough to get these amps up to target voltage. The numbers mentioned show you are indeed hitting target output voltages now.
FYI: As long as the amp gain settings used, provides the proper output voltage, it does not matter where the gain settings are on the amps. (You are there on all counts as mentioned)
Quote: "Freq Range" Control: When thrown to the right, this switch multiplies the cutoff frequency selected by the rotary "filter Freq" (Hz) by a factor of 10. In the "x1" position, the range of rotary control is 50-500Hz (as marked). In the "x10" position the range of rotary control is 500Hz-5Kz (5000Hz)".
This means if the selector is set at the "x1" position, that is the frequency noted on the dial where the filter begins to work. (Example: Say we want the crossovers' HPF set at 60 Hz. We select the "x1" position and set the dial to 60 Hz. If we use the "x10" selector, the HPF is now at 600 Hz.) Got all that? It's a multiplier switch.
Quote: "Depending on the speaker system and the vehicle, different filter slopes may be required to produce a smooth transition between the sound of different speakers in the system. Experiment to find which slope best matches the acoustic requirements of the system. The sharper "24dB" setting will do a better job of protecting small speakers with limited power handeling. The shallower "12dB" octave setting allows the rear speakers to produce more low-frequency content."
Here, the manual is stating we can use the gradual -12dB HPF for larger speakers. (6", 6.5", 6x8" & 6x9" speakers) If using smaller format speakers like, (3.5", 4x6, 4" and 5.25") we would want a -24dB slope to block low frequencies faster and protect the smaller format drivers.
Also. if the HU has filters, (This Pioneer does) using both the HU & amp filters will compound the effects. (Faster rolloff slopes and less MB to speakers) In this case, disable the HU crossovers and use the amps' crossovers. Use the -12dB selection as you have larger speakers that can handle the power.
Hope that clarifies and de-mystifies things for you Dem!
Best regards,
Swez
PS Shoot, just because a HU boast a high output signal, that does not always apply to all amps. Most car audio amps have a high input impedence value of 1,000 to 10,000 ohms. If the HU rates its voltage output at 100 ohms impedence or less, but the amp input impedence is much higher, the HU numbers are only a marketing ploy.
There are many tricks and ploys that are not widely known in car audio. They can make such claims and get away with it because the average consumer is not all that savvy and there are few regulations/standards that limit the claims made. As one gets deeper into this field, this will become evident. But for the "apprectice", these tricks and deceptions are hard to spot unless one knows where to look and how to interpret the less obvious. As with most things in this world, question everything do not take all things at face value. COFFEE
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 03/9/2007 03:42:40
Thanks Swez. I don't usually judge by face value, and Pioneer's a brand I don't really trust. Always appreciate a good lesson though, I had no Idea about the effects of RCA impendance on amps. Thanks for the FYI
PS-My Bad Coach GRIN
swez on 03/9/2007 08:45:22
Bad to da Bone Coach...hehe
It's not just Pioneer that does this type of thing. (The DEH-P7800MP is rated at 5 volts @ 100 ohms)
Eclipse does the same thing and rates their HU's at 5 volts, (55 ohms) load impedence. (But at least they state the parameters)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MsBGbPaG3sP/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=detailed_info&i=099CD7000#Tab
This is not what all HU makers do, but several brands are more prone to such practices then others.
The main thing here, most modern model amps can deliver full power with as little as 0.25 volts. One just needs to know how to measure the output voltage to insure their gain settings are correct.
Swez COFFEE
demetman on 03/9/2007 08:55:45
Thanks Swez, you do have a way of translating technical info into a more comprehendable understanding. I know my Pioneer HU preamps do not put out 5V and the X1 input setting is very clear now simply just a multiplier for a crossover freq range. A shallower -12dB HPF setting is now the obvious chioce for my component application especially with the high power handeling of the speakers(150W RMS) and the lack of MB responce. I'll keep you posted with my results as info is obtained. Looks like a break in weather this up and coming week! Almost time to lube up the fishing reels and dig out the tackle for spring.
demetman on 03/9/2007 09:20:35
Shootuh, the a/d/s/ 346cs comps were bi-wired as an experiment to note an increase in SQ utelizing thicker guage wire (12awg) and connecting the wire to both woofer + and - & both tweeter + & - inputs from my two channel amp. This connection is shown in my a/d/s/ manual and is recommended for installations where the crossover networks are mounted far from the amplifier. These special bi-wire Knukonceptz twisted pair have 2+ and 2- wires per wire run, one for each channel. It is obvious that these wires allow more current to move through to the crossovers but 2+ & 2- wires are a bit to bulky for each amp terminal to accept.
As a result I purchased 10awg wire and will re-wire using the standard connection. I understand your inquirey here as I researched this wiring method extensivelly, got the approval from JL to do so and tried it. Honestly I think there may have been a slight improvement in sound with the car in park, but on the road that improvement in SQ was masked by road noise. Swez, advised me before I conducted this experiment that this would yeild minimal results if any. I'm glad I took the time and resources to do this, because know I know for sure that bi-wiring (without bi-amping) is not woth the effort. Hope that clears things up.
Demetrios
demetman on 03/13/2007 19:28:13
Ok, guys here is a follow up on this topic. I spent a few hours today reinstalling my HU, rewiring my a/d/s/ crossovers with 10awg wire, installing a remote bass control nob to 1000/1 and reinstalling my repaired 300/2. My 300/2 came back from JL with an incident report indicating that the output circuit was found to be defective due to an open gate resistor. This is what caused my tweeter to make a hissing staticky noise.
My 300/2 HPF set to 65Hz, Input voltage set at X1, Filter Slope12dB and input voltage 24.5V. After a quick listen, WOW the midrange is quite a bit stronger and the highs are so loud I can't believe the output. With this amp operating the way it should I believe there is at least a +6db increase in highs alone! My ears are now crippled.
The 1000/1 was next with the LPF set to 100Hz, the SS Filter was lowered to 25H, Q 1.1, CF, 45Hz, Filter Slope set at 24 dB and input voltage set at 54.7V.
Last the a2150 was dialed in to 12.8V and the LPF set at 60Hz. When I first crancked her up the front comps overpowered everything leaving very little bass from the 12W7 and no rear fill tobe heard from CDT 6X9's. These a/d/s/ comps are now rediculous and would EASILY over power 2 -12W7 and 2-1000/1's with astonishing clarity at max input voltage. With a 1/4 boost of the RBC-1 the bass kicks up but still falls short to the front comps. I used to listen to my system at around 45 on the volume dial(max is 62) and now at 35 my ears are instantly fatigued.
After dialing back on the gain on the 300/2 I was able to reach a higher volume level allowing the sub to pick up and do it's thing. The CDT 6x9's did not put aout any additional bass with a lower LPF setting. I definatelly have more tweaking to experiment with to balance things out, just ran out of light today. More follow ups later
Demetrios
swez on 03/13/2007 20:32:04
Ahhh, the ADS Comps are Alive "Johnny 5" !!! Good, now that you have all that squared away, dialing back the gain on the 300/2 will give extra "headroom" for transient peaks in their new range of operation. Check that amp for a bit more heat as it will be working harder than before.
We seem to be lacking in the rear fill Phil... am wondering if a little more amping power would get your CDT's up to snuff. Or, consider upping the ante to Infinity 6x9 Coaxials with 2 ohms. Now, your getting ~50 Wrms per 4 ohm with the e-2150. With 2 ohm speakers and higher efficiency levels, should push about 75-85 Wrms @ 2 ohms in stereo back there. Your call Paul... The speakers would be cheaper to replace than the amp, but more effort too.
Sub... what can we do now? It seems you have pretty well max'd out this sub/amp combo and your present electrical supply too. Adding a 2nd 1000/1 and another 12W7, (Vented) could anticipate another +4-6dB of bass SPL. A pretty expensive upgrade, to be sure huh? Not to mention electrical issues we have discussed too.
Where does it all end friend?
Swez
PS Am leaving for Florida tomorrow and will have 2 days of drive time. I may not have much time on the Internet over the next 2 weeks unless I can find a place that allows me to plug in and sit for a while to do some follow up posts. However, where there's a will, there's a way huh?
The other option is me calling you from a cell phone. Shoot me a quick e-mail with your phone # and best time to chat. I will also pass my cell number back to you via reply.
swez on 03/13/2007 20:53:08
Hey Demitrios, check your e-mail...
Swez
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