So I have finally got a new toy for the bucket, a piece of crap Dual 10" in a box for the old Bazooka Ax Triangle subs, modified to stuff that mother in. I practially died laughing when I saw the box's ghetto, but overall decent use of truly cannabilized sub enclosure. And at "dental floss" gauge wiring. I have actually got this thing to sound quite good, because I know how to mask something that sounds bad, but I need a basic understanding on a few things that don't make much sense to me yet.
My first issue is my amp, and some issues it has/may have. We are now pushing my POS amp down to two ohms, which I know isn't reccomended on a bridged 2-channel, but It doesn't sound any worse, I keep my gain well below half, and I very closely monitor the temp of the amp, as it is under my driver's seat, I can check it just by reaching behind my seat and I do it often. If it starts getting hot, I crank it down lower for a while.. But since the day I bought this $20 pawn shop junker, it has the subs making a sound very similar to a rattling or vibration. Hooking the subs up to another amp or stereo makes the sound magically disappear, so I am absolutely sure it is not them. I know I need a new amp, but this will take some time, because as always, I'm broke. It could be my H/U sub outs, but I doubt this very highly. I'll check this out on my next days off.
Here is the only info I can find on my amp
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Profile_Baja_BA400/
Second issue is phasing and cancellations. I have been learning more and more about this, but haven't until now been able to apply any of this knowledge. To mask the crappy reproduction of bass of the Dual, I have it facing the backseat, scooched up as close as possible to vertical face, seatbelted in so It wont take my dome off in an accident. I have tried everywhere in the vehicle except the front seats and the trunk (which are not options) and this is where it sounds best by far. BUT, no matter where I stick the thing, it sounds like absolute hell unless wired 180 degrees out of phase.
None of this is really a problem, as my stereo is sounding good, and has little auidible distortion. I know its there, and with different speaker placement it would all sound like crap, but I have rigged it to sound pretty great. but I am curious to the cause of this problem. Could it be caused by the super weak crossover in my amp, causing a phase shift down the line of subs?
Another suspected cause is sound cancellations. My other sub is in a bandpass box, with a port that fires from the side of the box. The box is wedged in my footwell between front and rear seats. The port ends up about flush with the drivers side of the passenger seat, firing towards the drivers rear door. Could cancellations be the cause of needing to wire the Dual sub out of phase, keeping in mind that it sounds like crap no matter where it is located if not wired out of phase?
Any info here would be great, it's not life or death, but I am completely stumped on the causes of this. Any takers?
Replies (5)
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/13/2007 05:11:37
I have now found the manual for my amp, but beleive the specs to be highly doubtable
Baja BA400
http://www.profilecaraudio.com/Manuals/BA400.pdf
I have never put this amp into protect mode, but can definetly assume safely that the guy who had it before me probably did.
No model number on Dual sub is available, and I have taken out the sub to look. I beleive its rated about 150 RMS, but am unsure as the packaging wasn't included on the sub. I would never shop at CarToys if my homie didn't give me 5% over cost.
The sub in the bandpass box is a severly damaged Boston Acoustics RS10. The tinsel leads broke, on multiple occaisons, and I now have the speaker wire soldered directly to the voice coil. I got skills with the soldering gun now!
Anyway, what do you guys say? It'll all be out the door in a few months, but I am curious if how I can make all of this work better. Maybe I have too much time on my hands. When are we going to be able to write how to articles again?
cplkittle on 02/13/2007 22:58:00
The phase problem could be a direct result of which side of the bandpass sub is ported. If the face of the sub is facing the sealed side, and the rear of the sub is on the ported side, another sub in the vehicle with the face of the sub firing into the vehicle would put everything out of phase.
swez on 02/13/2007 23:06:27
I would think that most of the issues noted are due to low quality gear and install location limitations.
Here, it would be wise to set some clear-cut goals for your future install needs and stick to the plan as well as possible. Even if $$$ is tight, good shopping can still bring a great system together in time. I know this well as my finances have been very tight at times and delayed gratification is not something most of us like. But, with a goal in mind, somehow we always manage to get there because we don't get side-tracked as much.
Some would call that a curse... but I see it as a blessing. When finances are well managed, (In tough times) we can always look for ways to cut expenses and mayby take on a few side jobs when a full time one is not available??? Some have learned this by trial and error. Others have few real other options. Figure out which camp we are in and respond sccordingly. ;-)
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/14/2007 01:12:59
Sweet! I was wondering if something simple like that wasn't the cause, and forgot to put that on my list of suspects of the phase shift. The rear side of the BP sub is the port side, and I always wondered about if that would cause a problem, it did, and it was quickly worked around.
Will keeping a sub out of phase like that cause any permanent damage? This I really want to know, because I will reverse mount the Dual to save it's pathetic little life till I get some new gear.
A new amp, and on a tight budget, is the next piece that will find it's way to the hoopty. My brother had an Alpine MRD-M450 in his Bimmer, so I'm going to borrow it for a few minutes and see for sure that it is the amp I want. It is the cheapest Class D I can get my hands on, and I am totally sick of two channel amps for my subs. I can get this amp at 5% over wholesale cost, so once I find out what that price is, I'll fire it at you guys and see If we can't fire something comparable at a lower price, and we'll decide from there.
We are definitely on a real tight budget here, but I have enough junker equipment already, I will save up for decent stuff. We are definitely in the Anti-POS Equipment camp, and ammo is slowly arriving at the fort. Most of my gear has been free, or was really a really good deal. Fortunately, my H/U, RCA's, connectors and amp cables all are very high quality, which is probably why this junker bass engine pulls itself together.
After I buy my amp, I'm thinking the route of the Alpine Type-E, or the JBL GTO series. My buddy says the GTO lineup is pretty much a disguised Infinity Reference, since both are Harmon Kardon products. I have owned a Reference in the past, and put a Type-E in my lady's car, and both subs I was completely impressed and satisfied with.
My plans for a good SQ engine need a good push in the right direction. I am kind of at a stalemate with good mounting places for speakers in the ride, as the doors aren't very spacious, the whole dash is flat as a pancake, with weak 4X6 stockers firing upward at towards the windshield. I have "upgrades" in the SQ department, but I will post pics so you guys can understand a little more of the crap I'm working with.
My Mids/ Highs consist of..............
5.25 midranges and 3.5 inch tweeters, ???power handling, 8 0hms each, ??? crossover point (did pull the crossovers for these), pulled from extra house speakers, wired in series with......
Stock 4X6 OEM POS 16W RMS speakers, in stock locations, this series configuration wired in parallel with........
Alpine SPS-1625 6.5, 30W RMS, 4 0hm Type S's I believe, back when Alpine made stuff with paper cones. Powered by.......
The two front channels only off my Alpine 9807. Each channel is rated 23W RMS, but with the unknown ohmage I am pushing, this could be anything now. Each channel has a passive crossover rated originally at 200Hz, but the unknown ohmage would change that.
Here I want to do a set of components with a really high sensitivity, lower range power handling, and some 8's for midbass, but I have no Idea where to go with this. I want to keep power handling as low as possible so I can get the most performance from a small, probably 2 channel amp, but the internal amp will probably push them for a while before that.
FYI I am getting older and more mature, and high SQ is Waaaayyy more important than loudness. I hate distortion with a passion, and find myself saying "punk little kids" every time I hear some clipped out to the max stereo overpowering mine at a stoplight.
Spring is coming, which means a lot of people are wanting new bumps for the summer, so side jobs are slowly coming in. Unfortunately, it's mostly freinds/coworkers who expect me to work for virtually nothing, so I need to put some spine into my work and make people pay some decent money for my work. I really need to get on at a stereo shop so I can make more money and make sure that I get more OJT expeirence in the field.
So what do you guys say? I really need some help getting 80 hz and up figured out, so how bout a good push in a good direction. You guys are always good at that. There will be no more "for now" upgrades, unless given to me, which happens often.
swez on 02/14/2007 09:26:59
Wow... covered a lot of topics here. Let's break them down to managable bite.
1. Sub phasing is a matter of wiring and location of the subs. We know we are in phase with full range speakers when bass sounds fullest and crisp. If the subs are out of phase and sound best that way... go with it as it will not hurt the subs at all.
2. Your 4x6 stock dash speakers are obviously not up to par when amped. They can/should be deleted if you wish and just use quality Comps in the front doors or kick panels. A matched pair with good passive crossovers, makes all the difference too. Then, it's just a matter of amping and filtering them to blend with the sub and rear speakers. For now, that Baja seems to have enough power to drive most good Aftermarket speakers. (100 RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms) Not bad at all. Just not a quality amp is all, but still usable if it's in good working order. ou can even run 2 ohm Comps like the JBL or Infinity's. This amp is rated at 150 RMS x 2 @ 2 ohms per channel. That 40A fuse tells us this amp is able to deliver those power ratings as stated.
3. The Alpine speakers and amp noted, would be usable in the rear channels. These will deliver good mids and highs from the back. Since they are fairly efficient, a smaller amp should get the job done.
4. As for your bass engine, The Dual subs are not half bad. In the right enclosure and adequate power, they can deliver pretty solid bass. The trick here is the correct enclosure and an amp that can handle the power needed at the correct ohmic load you anticipate. Don't be afraid to look at 1 sub and 300-500 watts for your bass engine. If SQ or SQL is your goal, a modest amp and a solid 10-12 sub can be a very good match.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI: A few months back, one my neighbor's homies were having problems with his pair of Duals and a Soundstorm amp. Basically, the bass sounded hike hammered doggie poop. I took the subs out and noted how badly wired they were. (No soldering, no push on clips ect.) I soldered in fresh #12 wires and tested them on my Peavey CS-800. They sounded very good at about 200 watts. (Sealed box, ~1.2 cf per chamber)
I then took the box back, rewired his amp power lines and installed #12 speaker cables and then dialed in his LPF, BB and gain. What an eye opener. He was stunned at the overall performance as I grinned and walked away shaking my head. (Darn amatures can really mess up a decent setup huh)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can discuss MB fill at a later date. Right now, we have no idea what the initial system performance will be, so the point is moot for now. If you find MB is lacking, we can look at several options as needed, when the time comes.
Swez
My first issue is my amp, and some issues it has/may have. We are now pushing my POS amp down to two ohms, which I know isn't reccomended on a bridged 2-channel, but It doesn't sound any worse, I keep my gain well below half, and I very closely monitor the temp of the amp, as it is under my driver's seat, I can check it just by reaching behind my seat and I do it often. If it starts getting hot, I crank it down lower for a while.. But since the day I bought this $20 pawn shop junker, it has the subs making a sound very similar to a rattling or vibration. Hooking the subs up to another amp or stereo makes the sound magically disappear, so I am absolutely sure it is not them. I know I need a new amp, but this will take some time, because as always, I'm broke. It could be my H/U sub outs, but I doubt this very highly. I'll check this out on my next days off.
Here is the only info I can find on my amp
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Profile_Baja_BA400/
Second issue is phasing and cancellations. I have been learning more and more about this, but haven't until now been able to apply any of this knowledge. To mask the crappy reproduction of bass of the Dual, I have it facing the backseat, scooched up as close as possible to vertical face, seatbelted in so It wont take my dome off in an accident. I have tried everywhere in the vehicle except the front seats and the trunk (which are not options) and this is where it sounds best by far. BUT, no matter where I stick the thing, it sounds like absolute hell unless wired 180 degrees out of phase.
None of this is really a problem, as my stereo is sounding good, and has little auidible distortion. I know its there, and with different speaker placement it would all sound like crap, but I have rigged it to sound pretty great. but I am curious to the cause of this problem. Could it be caused by the super weak crossover in my amp, causing a phase shift down the line of subs?
Another suspected cause is sound cancellations. My other sub is in a bandpass box, with a port that fires from the side of the box. The box is wedged in my footwell between front and rear seats. The port ends up about flush with the drivers side of the passenger seat, firing towards the drivers rear door. Could cancellations be the cause of needing to wire the Dual sub out of phase, keeping in mind that it sounds like crap no matter where it is located if not wired out of phase?
Any info here would be great, it's not life or death, but I am completely stumped on the causes of this. Any takers?
Replies (5)
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/13/2007 05:11:37
I have now found the manual for my amp, but beleive the specs to be highly doubtable
Baja BA400
http://www.profilecaraudio.com/Manuals/BA400.pdf
I have never put this amp into protect mode, but can definetly assume safely that the guy who had it before me probably did.
No model number on Dual sub is available, and I have taken out the sub to look. I beleive its rated about 150 RMS, but am unsure as the packaging wasn't included on the sub. I would never shop at CarToys if my homie didn't give me 5% over cost.
The sub in the bandpass box is a severly damaged Boston Acoustics RS10. The tinsel leads broke, on multiple occaisons, and I now have the speaker wire soldered directly to the voice coil. I got skills with the soldering gun now!
Anyway, what do you guys say? It'll all be out the door in a few months, but I am curious if how I can make all of this work better. Maybe I have too much time on my hands. When are we going to be able to write how to articles again?
cplkittle on 02/13/2007 22:58:00
The phase problem could be a direct result of which side of the bandpass sub is ported. If the face of the sub is facing the sealed side, and the rear of the sub is on the ported side, another sub in the vehicle with the face of the sub firing into the vehicle would put everything out of phase.
swez on 02/13/2007 23:06:27
I would think that most of the issues noted are due to low quality gear and install location limitations.
Here, it would be wise to set some clear-cut goals for your future install needs and stick to the plan as well as possible. Even if $$$ is tight, good shopping can still bring a great system together in time. I know this well as my finances have been very tight at times and delayed gratification is not something most of us like. But, with a goal in mind, somehow we always manage to get there because we don't get side-tracked as much.
Some would call that a curse... but I see it as a blessing. When finances are well managed, (In tough times) we can always look for ways to cut expenses and mayby take on a few side jobs when a full time one is not available??? Some have learned this by trial and error. Others have few real other options. Figure out which camp we are in and respond sccordingly. ;-)
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/14/2007 01:12:59
Sweet! I was wondering if something simple like that wasn't the cause, and forgot to put that on my list of suspects of the phase shift. The rear side of the BP sub is the port side, and I always wondered about if that would cause a problem, it did, and it was quickly worked around.
Will keeping a sub out of phase like that cause any permanent damage? This I really want to know, because I will reverse mount the Dual to save it's pathetic little life till I get some new gear.
A new amp, and on a tight budget, is the next piece that will find it's way to the hoopty. My brother had an Alpine MRD-M450 in his Bimmer, so I'm going to borrow it for a few minutes and see for sure that it is the amp I want. It is the cheapest Class D I can get my hands on, and I am totally sick of two channel amps for my subs. I can get this amp at 5% over wholesale cost, so once I find out what that price is, I'll fire it at you guys and see If we can't fire something comparable at a lower price, and we'll decide from there.
We are definitely on a real tight budget here, but I have enough junker equipment already, I will save up for decent stuff. We are definitely in the Anti-POS Equipment camp, and ammo is slowly arriving at the fort. Most of my gear has been free, or was really a really good deal. Fortunately, my H/U, RCA's, connectors and amp cables all are very high quality, which is probably why this junker bass engine pulls itself together.
After I buy my amp, I'm thinking the route of the Alpine Type-E, or the JBL GTO series. My buddy says the GTO lineup is pretty much a disguised Infinity Reference, since both are Harmon Kardon products. I have owned a Reference in the past, and put a Type-E in my lady's car, and both subs I was completely impressed and satisfied with.
My plans for a good SQ engine need a good push in the right direction. I am kind of at a stalemate with good mounting places for speakers in the ride, as the doors aren't very spacious, the whole dash is flat as a pancake, with weak 4X6 stockers firing upward at towards the windshield. I have "upgrades" in the SQ department, but I will post pics so you guys can understand a little more of the crap I'm working with.
My Mids/ Highs consist of..............
5.25 midranges and 3.5 inch tweeters, ???power handling, 8 0hms each, ??? crossover point (did pull the crossovers for these), pulled from extra house speakers, wired in series with......
Stock 4X6 OEM POS 16W RMS speakers, in stock locations, this series configuration wired in parallel with........
Alpine SPS-1625 6.5, 30W RMS, 4 0hm Type S's I believe, back when Alpine made stuff with paper cones. Powered by.......
The two front channels only off my Alpine 9807. Each channel is rated 23W RMS, but with the unknown ohmage I am pushing, this could be anything now. Each channel has a passive crossover rated originally at 200Hz, but the unknown ohmage would change that.
Here I want to do a set of components with a really high sensitivity, lower range power handling, and some 8's for midbass, but I have no Idea where to go with this. I want to keep power handling as low as possible so I can get the most performance from a small, probably 2 channel amp, but the internal amp will probably push them for a while before that.
FYI I am getting older and more mature, and high SQ is Waaaayyy more important than loudness. I hate distortion with a passion, and find myself saying "punk little kids" every time I hear some clipped out to the max stereo overpowering mine at a stoplight.
Spring is coming, which means a lot of people are wanting new bumps for the summer, so side jobs are slowly coming in. Unfortunately, it's mostly freinds/coworkers who expect me to work for virtually nothing, so I need to put some spine into my work and make people pay some decent money for my work. I really need to get on at a stereo shop so I can make more money and make sure that I get more OJT expeirence in the field.
So what do you guys say? I really need some help getting 80 hz and up figured out, so how bout a good push in a good direction. You guys are always good at that. There will be no more "for now" upgrades, unless given to me, which happens often.
swez on 02/14/2007 09:26:59
Wow... covered a lot of topics here. Let's break them down to managable bite.
1. Sub phasing is a matter of wiring and location of the subs. We know we are in phase with full range speakers when bass sounds fullest and crisp. If the subs are out of phase and sound best that way... go with it as it will not hurt the subs at all.
2. Your 4x6 stock dash speakers are obviously not up to par when amped. They can/should be deleted if you wish and just use quality Comps in the front doors or kick panels. A matched pair with good passive crossovers, makes all the difference too. Then, it's just a matter of amping and filtering them to blend with the sub and rear speakers. For now, that Baja seems to have enough power to drive most good Aftermarket speakers. (100 RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms) Not bad at all. Just not a quality amp is all, but still usable if it's in good working order. ou can even run 2 ohm Comps like the JBL or Infinity's. This amp is rated at 150 RMS x 2 @ 2 ohms per channel. That 40A fuse tells us this amp is able to deliver those power ratings as stated.
3. The Alpine speakers and amp noted, would be usable in the rear channels. These will deliver good mids and highs from the back. Since they are fairly efficient, a smaller amp should get the job done.
4. As for your bass engine, The Dual subs are not half bad. In the right enclosure and adequate power, they can deliver pretty solid bass. The trick here is the correct enclosure and an amp that can handle the power needed at the correct ohmic load you anticipate. Don't be afraid to look at 1 sub and 300-500 watts for your bass engine. If SQ or SQL is your goal, a modest amp and a solid 10-12 sub can be a very good match.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI: A few months back, one my neighbor's homies were having problems with his pair of Duals and a Soundstorm amp. Basically, the bass sounded hike hammered doggie poop. I took the subs out and noted how badly wired they were. (No soldering, no push on clips ect.) I soldered in fresh #12 wires and tested them on my Peavey CS-800. They sounded very good at about 200 watts. (Sealed box, ~1.2 cf per chamber)
I then took the box back, rewired his amp power lines and installed #12 speaker cables and then dialed in his LPF, BB and gain. What an eye opener. He was stunned at the overall performance as I grinned and walked away shaking my head. (Darn amatures can really mess up a decent setup huh)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can discuss MB fill at a later date. Right now, we have no idea what the initial system performance will be, so the point is moot for now. If you find MB is lacking, we can look at several options as needed, when the time comes.
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
