Hi guys,
Am working on a project of late and would like some feedback on what is a good way to paint a fiberglass/graphite composite fishing rod blank?
This paint needs to flex well and not chip, crack or peel off. I will be top coating it after the painting process with a 2 part epoxy coating. (2 coats)
As for color, I am hoping for a nice maroon color and perhaps some metal flake. A 2 oz. spray can should be plenty here. It can even be a liquid and applied by brushing. I can also bake the paint as needed for better adhesion ect.
Not sure if automotive touch up paint would work, an acrylic based paint or perhaps something I have yet to hear about.
Comments welcome,
Swez
PS Yep, I am itchin' for Spring and this will be a combination Bass and Walleye rod. 2 pc, 7'6" long, fast action and single foot Hardalloy guides. Yes, have made custom rods before and am getting back into it again. Can build a custom rod better and cheaper than factory rods I see for over $100.00.
Replies (15)
cplkittle on 02/6/2007 21:51:56
I would contact your local custom powder coater and see what he charges for polymer powders that will flex with your rod. They will be able to give you a perfectly uniform finish (it cures at 350-500 degrees, so if you have nylon or plastic eyes, you might not be able to do this.
swez on 02/6/2007 22:15:19
Too high a temperature for curing here Kit. From my readings so far, 150-200 degrees is tops for temperature on a rod blank of this composition.
The fiberglass/graphite is pressed on to a steel form mandril and then baked at ~300 degrees to set and cure. Anything much higher than 200 degrees can destroy the blank by weakening the binders with heat.
Good thought though. Am researching some options that are more off-the-shelf if possible. Am wondering if Krylon for plastics would stand up to considerable flexing??? I like the colors and fleck options in the paint line for plastics as they bond very well. (Chemical valance bonding)
Cocoa Brown #2525 looks kinda neat?
http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=10&productid=1857&content=product_details
Swez
cplkittle on 02/7/2007 00:21:14
How porus is the rod, wonder how it would absorb and take a dye.
P0werLifter on 02/7/2007 00:46:55
Good idea Kittle.
Wish I could really give some input but I'm use to spray paint, and automotive paint haha. Nothing else really =/
-PL
swez on 02/7/2007 06:24:50
Tried a Mahogany staining dye, (Minwax) already and it just did not go deep into the pores of the blank. It did give some darker tones in the test section I was experimenting with, but not nearly enough colorant to get the job done.
Contacted Krylon Techs to see what they have to say about their plastics paint formulations. Just waiting for their response.
PL, am also thinking that Automotive paints may be a good solution here too. The paints used on bumpers and other flexible materials, may have merit here as they do bond very well and are also flexible. Am wondering is several "flash coats" would be the way to go.
Have sanded the blank well, (down to #400 grit) so it's a pretty clean and a smooth surface already. If needed, willing to do a few flash coats of primer for better surface adhesion. Primers have a high solids content, so they tend to be durable, promote better adhesion and good for opaque substrates too.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 02/7/2007 14:33:44
Krylon responded that their "plastic paints" do not flex well enough to use in this application. The plastic paints offer very good adhesion to various subtrates, (like fiberglass) but when flexing is part of the equation, this paint is likely to crack or flake off...
Next...
Swez
PL on 02/7/2007 14:34:40
At least you got a pretty quick response from them. I would try calling an automotive Body Shop and inquire about the type of paint they use on pumpers, etc and get their opinion maybe?
=PL
cplkittle on 02/7/2007 19:42:48
Hey Swez,
I have a friend that used to fish professionaly. I called him up and asked him if he had ever built a rod himself. He has never built one, but he has a good friend named John Miles that builds custom rods in Cleveland TN. Here is his website:
http://www.jmilescustomrods.com/
He said John was a really nice guy, and if you emailed him or called him he would probably tell you what type of paint or epoxy to use. Hope that helps.
swez on 02/7/2007 23:09:57
Super!!! Will look/contact John's site and see what he specializes in. This seems to be more or less a trade secret for Custom Rod Builders and none of the big name makers are willing to openly discuss their trade secrets.
Custom rod building is very specialized art form. After doing a few of them in years gone by, I see value in keeping those details private. However, my brother and I are thinking of getting into this as a hobby and maybe a private label line of gear in the future.
There is room for such enterprises, but we are most interested in local and regional business and not a full time endeavor. We desire the best, but not at the premium prices we see out there for branded names.
Right now, this is just a hobby and such. Thanks for your inputs!
Swez
jamesp on 02/8/2007 15:42:13
Hi Swez, the way that I understand it, the composite,(glass/graphite) rods are colored with the gelcoat over the outer glass wrapping the graphite core, then cleared over the entire blank after the guide wrapping is finished. On the "high dollar" rods like Sage and G. Loomis, the latest generation high modulas graphite is generally left natural or sanded with only the clear coat applied. I have a 4 pc. G. Loomis fly rod that is finished with a matte clear that looks very nice.I dont know of any system to "color" the clear finish which is generally epoxy. I do know that you cannot simply add glycol based colorant to it, like automotive paints and house paints are tinted with.
You could experiment with some artist acrylic mixed into the resin of the epoxy finish you are going to use before you add the hardener. If the acrylic will mix evenly into your resin without clouding it, then when the activator is added in it should only change the color a tiny bit. Try that on the tip of the blank that you removed. If you can get the look you want it will be as durable and flexible as the epoxy finish was to begin with.
swez on 02/8/2007 20:04:12
Good inputs Jimmy... The blank has been sanded and looks a bit speckled from a previous pigment. This blank would look awful w/o some kind of pigment. Like the idea of using acrylics as they tend to flex well and offer good adhesion to a clean substrate.
Yes, I will be doing two coats of very thin epoxy after the colorant is cured, just like Redington, Loomis, Sage and others do. I do have spare pieces of the original blank to play with as samples. This was originally an 8' fly rod (~30 MM Modulus/ medium flex) before and now to be a 7.0' - 7.5' spinning rod when completed.
The goal is a very light rod weight, med/fast to fast action tip and a stout butt and can handle 8-12 lb test. I use Spider Wire's braided formulation these days as it has very minimal stretch at 40 yards, very small diameter and with the right rod, sensitivity to light strikes, (Timid Walleye) are excellent.
Once the blank is coated, will be installing single foot ceramic guides and tip and making my own cork handle as well. I really like cork for sensitivity transmission. Don't care much for foam/neoprene based handles. They tend to dampen "feel" a bit too much.
G. Loomis makes some very nice rods dude! What weight and action is your 4 pc?
Ever heard of Quarrow's Drake Big Horn series? I bought a #7, 3pc, IM7/med/fast 9.0' rod last spring and find it stacks up very well to Redington's IM7, (RS3 Series) for <1/2 the price.
The next addition will be a #5 rig for small bass, large pans and trout. I may stick w/ Quarrow or just make one this summer. Thinking an IM7-IM8 blank, med/fast-fast action tip here as well. Am a bit shy on the IM8 blanks at such light weights as they don't take well to bead heads that hit the blank. (Yeah, am still learning to work a weighted bug) They act very different on light weight rods and more practice is needed.
Swez
jamesp on 02/8/2007 20:59:10
Swez, I have a G. Loomis 4pc 8wt,
GLX. It is a pretty fast action rod that I use for bones in the flats and specled sea trout and redfish and small permit in the back country, but I also use it for hybrids in the local waters and the ocasional striper. I have Sage RPLX saltwater series rods in 9 wt and 10wt and an 11 wt Reddington also. I use a Lamson 3" reel on the 8wt and a Billy Pate Bonefish(3.5") reel on the 9 and 10 wieght rods. I have a Valentine anti reverse reel on the big rod to keep from breaking fingers on big bull dolphin and Tarpon. I caught 1 decent Wahoo on the fly in April 05 in the Keys.I have a little 4 wt. Orvis outfit and a 6wt Lamiglass for playing around trout streams and farm ponds. I used the 8 wt. rod in Oregon in the Alsea and Siletz rivers on sea run cutthroats (blue backs) Lost a big Steelhead there on the Deschutes. I also fished the Metolius on that trip.I bought it for that trip originally. I get to Florida a lot more often. I have a fortune in spinning and casting stuff too and mostly stick with Shimano reels here.I do love to fish..The White Bass and Hybrids will start coming up the river in March. Im ready.GRIN
swez on 02/9/2007 06:25:17
Hehe, you sound like my brother... he's got a passle of Fly rod rigs for many different conditions. He's got Orvis, Fenwick and Redington rods of many weights and lengths too. His favorite reels are mostly Ross. Here in MI, we don't have the bruisers like strippers this far north. However, we do have large pike, musky and tiger musky hybrids. To play with and in the spring and fall, we get a good run on Steelhead, Browns and various Salmonoids. Our King Salmon get upwards of 35-40 lbs. But the average Browns and Steelies are 4-15 lbs.
Just got back into fly fishing 2.5 years ago, after a 30 year stint with spinning gear only. Did not have much time to fish seriously while the kids were younger, so I focused on golf a lot more. Now, have more time to devote to fishing again and golf has become so expensive here, ($45-150.00 a round) fishing looks better than golf now.
Have a friend up in Jersey and he says the Strippers did not migrate soon enough this fall to his area. The waters were too warm up north and they did not migrate until late and the season closed in his area when they started to move down. Strippers are a blast, but compared to other salt species you mentioned, I can see why you have such large rigs for Bones, Reds, Tarpon and White Bass.
Here, we get the pike and musky runs after ice out in late February and early March. This is also when the Steelies come in from the Great Lakes again to spawn. Then come the Suckers, Walleye and White Bass during March-May. By late May, the bass begin their spawning cycles and large/small mouth Bass are pretty active until fall. In the fall, the Salmonoids come in from the lakes to spawn and die off. The Browns and some Steelies will follow them in and action can be pretty good until Christmas.
Am definitely getting a case of cabin fever right now. We've been in the deep freeze for over a week now. (Highs in the low teens, lows in the single digits and windchills in the sub zero range at night) Time to tie more flies, buggers and poppers huh?
Tight lines there Jimmy boy!
Swez SMILE
Same here... Shimano reels all the way around. Love em!
jamesp on 02/9/2007 11:52:52
In the last 2.5 years I have gotten behind in my fishing. Only 1 trip to Florida in 06 to Appalachicola. Since I have a real job and am not self employed for the first time 1985 I just have not been going as much as I used to.I havent cranked the motor on my "big" boat since September. I do fully intend to catch up on my fishing but there always seems to be something in the way that used to not impede my time on the water.I also seem to have lost my drive for hunting the last few years.
I had the golf hook in me pretty deep too, until I broke my back in a 4 wheeler mishap. It takes up more time than I am willing to devote to it these days.
The bottom line is just that Im getting old....but Im not going to let that stop me. I get mad at myself when I start feeling that a fishing trip can seem to be more work than Im willing to put into it. I used to never let that stop me, and while I would rather not be rushed, many times I have left w my fishing buddy on a minutes notice, called the wifey while on my way and driven down to Florida on Friday , fished Sat. and Sun. and driven back Sunday night. I just need to get some of the drive back that I used to have.lol
swez on 02/9/2007 12:30:32
Am thinking as we get older, men tend to weigh the hassles VS rewards side of things. When we were younger, it was easier to just chuck a bunch of gear in the truck/boat and just go.
Now, it's to a point that I just keep my gear ready to go at a moments notice and scaled back on how much I choose to take. It's easier wade fish the local streams, small lakes and ponds. Simple to have the waders, vest, a hat, a few rods & reels ready and just go. Everthing I need is in a duffle bag now. It's just a matter of grab and go now. In most cases, a 45 minute drive, suit up and we're in the water in about an hour. Simplicity adds to the enjoyment factor a lot huh?
My small boat has been sitting for 3-4 years now. But this spring, am planning to get it ready for use. This opens up more opportunities to fish bigger waters and work the deep holes and such. Nothin fancy at all, but rigging up some new lights, a fresh battery for the trolling motor and a good cleaning should do the trick.
This boat is only 12' long and perfect for 2 adults. It has a very wide beam, so one can fly fish while the other does the navigation and spinning gear routine. It's definitely not a 1st class Bass boat, but who cares... it's the skill and luck of the guys fishing that matters... not the $25,000 Ranger logo. hehe Yes, I'd love to have a 19 foot bass boat someday, but the boating season is so short here in MI, (May-October) is it really worth the expenses? If one could get out 2-3 times a week, yeah!
Swez
PS Define fishing: "A jerk on one end of the pole, waiting for a jerk at the other end of the line". "Bout sums it up huh?" Fish On!!!
Am working on a project of late and would like some feedback on what is a good way to paint a fiberglass/graphite composite fishing rod blank?
This paint needs to flex well and not chip, crack or peel off. I will be top coating it after the painting process with a 2 part epoxy coating. (2 coats)
As for color, I am hoping for a nice maroon color and perhaps some metal flake. A 2 oz. spray can should be plenty here. It can even be a liquid and applied by brushing. I can also bake the paint as needed for better adhesion ect.
Not sure if automotive touch up paint would work, an acrylic based paint or perhaps something I have yet to hear about.
Comments welcome,
Swez
PS Yep, I am itchin' for Spring and this will be a combination Bass and Walleye rod. 2 pc, 7'6" long, fast action and single foot Hardalloy guides. Yes, have made custom rods before and am getting back into it again. Can build a custom rod better and cheaper than factory rods I see for over $100.00.
Replies (15)
cplkittle on 02/6/2007 21:51:56
I would contact your local custom powder coater and see what he charges for polymer powders that will flex with your rod. They will be able to give you a perfectly uniform finish (it cures at 350-500 degrees, so if you have nylon or plastic eyes, you might not be able to do this.
swez on 02/6/2007 22:15:19
Too high a temperature for curing here Kit. From my readings so far, 150-200 degrees is tops for temperature on a rod blank of this composition.
The fiberglass/graphite is pressed on to a steel form mandril and then baked at ~300 degrees to set and cure. Anything much higher than 200 degrees can destroy the blank by weakening the binders with heat.
Good thought though. Am researching some options that are more off-the-shelf if possible. Am wondering if Krylon for plastics would stand up to considerable flexing??? I like the colors and fleck options in the paint line for plastics as they bond very well. (Chemical valance bonding)
Cocoa Brown #2525 looks kinda neat?
http://www.krylon.com/main/product_template.cfm?levelid=5&sub_levelid=10&productid=1857&content=product_details
Swez
cplkittle on 02/7/2007 00:21:14
How porus is the rod, wonder how it would absorb and take a dye.
P0werLifter on 02/7/2007 00:46:55
Good idea Kittle.
Wish I could really give some input but I'm use to spray paint, and automotive paint haha. Nothing else really =/
-PL
swez on 02/7/2007 06:24:50
Tried a Mahogany staining dye, (Minwax) already and it just did not go deep into the pores of the blank. It did give some darker tones in the test section I was experimenting with, but not nearly enough colorant to get the job done.
Contacted Krylon Techs to see what they have to say about their plastics paint formulations. Just waiting for their response.
PL, am also thinking that Automotive paints may be a good solution here too. The paints used on bumpers and other flexible materials, may have merit here as they do bond very well and are also flexible. Am wondering is several "flash coats" would be the way to go.
Have sanded the blank well, (down to #400 grit) so it's a pretty clean and a smooth surface already. If needed, willing to do a few flash coats of primer for better surface adhesion. Primers have a high solids content, so they tend to be durable, promote better adhesion and good for opaque substrates too.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 02/7/2007 14:33:44
Krylon responded that their "plastic paints" do not flex well enough to use in this application. The plastic paints offer very good adhesion to various subtrates, (like fiberglass) but when flexing is part of the equation, this paint is likely to crack or flake off...
Next...
Swez
PL on 02/7/2007 14:34:40
At least you got a pretty quick response from them. I would try calling an automotive Body Shop and inquire about the type of paint they use on pumpers, etc and get their opinion maybe?
=PL
cplkittle on 02/7/2007 19:42:48
Hey Swez,
I have a friend that used to fish professionaly. I called him up and asked him if he had ever built a rod himself. He has never built one, but he has a good friend named John Miles that builds custom rods in Cleveland TN. Here is his website:
http://www.jmilescustomrods.com/
He said John was a really nice guy, and if you emailed him or called him he would probably tell you what type of paint or epoxy to use. Hope that helps.
swez on 02/7/2007 23:09:57
Super!!! Will look/contact John's site and see what he specializes in. This seems to be more or less a trade secret for Custom Rod Builders and none of the big name makers are willing to openly discuss their trade secrets.
Custom rod building is very specialized art form. After doing a few of them in years gone by, I see value in keeping those details private. However, my brother and I are thinking of getting into this as a hobby and maybe a private label line of gear in the future.
There is room for such enterprises, but we are most interested in local and regional business and not a full time endeavor. We desire the best, but not at the premium prices we see out there for branded names.
Right now, this is just a hobby and such. Thanks for your inputs!
Swez
jamesp on 02/8/2007 15:42:13
Hi Swez, the way that I understand it, the composite,(glass/graphite) rods are colored with the gelcoat over the outer glass wrapping the graphite core, then cleared over the entire blank after the guide wrapping is finished. On the "high dollar" rods like Sage and G. Loomis, the latest generation high modulas graphite is generally left natural or sanded with only the clear coat applied. I have a 4 pc. G. Loomis fly rod that is finished with a matte clear that looks very nice.I dont know of any system to "color" the clear finish which is generally epoxy. I do know that you cannot simply add glycol based colorant to it, like automotive paints and house paints are tinted with.
You could experiment with some artist acrylic mixed into the resin of the epoxy finish you are going to use before you add the hardener. If the acrylic will mix evenly into your resin without clouding it, then when the activator is added in it should only change the color a tiny bit. Try that on the tip of the blank that you removed. If you can get the look you want it will be as durable and flexible as the epoxy finish was to begin with.
swez on 02/8/2007 20:04:12
Good inputs Jimmy... The blank has been sanded and looks a bit speckled from a previous pigment. This blank would look awful w/o some kind of pigment. Like the idea of using acrylics as they tend to flex well and offer good adhesion to a clean substrate.
Yes, I will be doing two coats of very thin epoxy after the colorant is cured, just like Redington, Loomis, Sage and others do. I do have spare pieces of the original blank to play with as samples. This was originally an 8' fly rod (~30 MM Modulus/ medium flex) before and now to be a 7.0' - 7.5' spinning rod when completed.
The goal is a very light rod weight, med/fast to fast action tip and a stout butt and can handle 8-12 lb test. I use Spider Wire's braided formulation these days as it has very minimal stretch at 40 yards, very small diameter and with the right rod, sensitivity to light strikes, (Timid Walleye) are excellent.
Once the blank is coated, will be installing single foot ceramic guides and tip and making my own cork handle as well. I really like cork for sensitivity transmission. Don't care much for foam/neoprene based handles. They tend to dampen "feel" a bit too much.
G. Loomis makes some very nice rods dude! What weight and action is your 4 pc?
Ever heard of Quarrow's Drake Big Horn series? I bought a #7, 3pc, IM7/med/fast 9.0' rod last spring and find it stacks up very well to Redington's IM7, (RS3 Series) for <1/2 the price.
The next addition will be a #5 rig for small bass, large pans and trout. I may stick w/ Quarrow or just make one this summer. Thinking an IM7-IM8 blank, med/fast-fast action tip here as well. Am a bit shy on the IM8 blanks at such light weights as they don't take well to bead heads that hit the blank. (Yeah, am still learning to work a weighted bug) They act very different on light weight rods and more practice is needed.
Swez
jamesp on 02/8/2007 20:59:10
Swez, I have a G. Loomis 4pc 8wt,
GLX. It is a pretty fast action rod that I use for bones in the flats and specled sea trout and redfish and small permit in the back country, but I also use it for hybrids in the local waters and the ocasional striper. I have Sage RPLX saltwater series rods in 9 wt and 10wt and an 11 wt Reddington also. I use a Lamson 3" reel on the 8wt and a Billy Pate Bonefish(3.5") reel on the 9 and 10 wieght rods. I have a Valentine anti reverse reel on the big rod to keep from breaking fingers on big bull dolphin and Tarpon. I caught 1 decent Wahoo on the fly in April 05 in the Keys.I have a little 4 wt. Orvis outfit and a 6wt Lamiglass for playing around trout streams and farm ponds. I used the 8 wt. rod in Oregon in the Alsea and Siletz rivers on sea run cutthroats (blue backs) Lost a big Steelhead there on the Deschutes. I also fished the Metolius on that trip.I bought it for that trip originally. I get to Florida a lot more often. I have a fortune in spinning and casting stuff too and mostly stick with Shimano reels here.I do love to fish..The White Bass and Hybrids will start coming up the river in March. Im ready.GRIN
swez on 02/9/2007 06:25:17
Hehe, you sound like my brother... he's got a passle of Fly rod rigs for many different conditions. He's got Orvis, Fenwick and Redington rods of many weights and lengths too. His favorite reels are mostly Ross. Here in MI, we don't have the bruisers like strippers this far north. However, we do have large pike, musky and tiger musky hybrids. To play with and in the spring and fall, we get a good run on Steelhead, Browns and various Salmonoids. Our King Salmon get upwards of 35-40 lbs. But the average Browns and Steelies are 4-15 lbs.
Just got back into fly fishing 2.5 years ago, after a 30 year stint with spinning gear only. Did not have much time to fish seriously while the kids were younger, so I focused on golf a lot more. Now, have more time to devote to fishing again and golf has become so expensive here, ($45-150.00 a round) fishing looks better than golf now.
Have a friend up in Jersey and he says the Strippers did not migrate soon enough this fall to his area. The waters were too warm up north and they did not migrate until late and the season closed in his area when they started to move down. Strippers are a blast, but compared to other salt species you mentioned, I can see why you have such large rigs for Bones, Reds, Tarpon and White Bass.
Here, we get the pike and musky runs after ice out in late February and early March. This is also when the Steelies come in from the Great Lakes again to spawn. Then come the Suckers, Walleye and White Bass during March-May. By late May, the bass begin their spawning cycles and large/small mouth Bass are pretty active until fall. In the fall, the Salmonoids come in from the lakes to spawn and die off. The Browns and some Steelies will follow them in and action can be pretty good until Christmas.
Am definitely getting a case of cabin fever right now. We've been in the deep freeze for over a week now. (Highs in the low teens, lows in the single digits and windchills in the sub zero range at night) Time to tie more flies, buggers and poppers huh?
Tight lines there Jimmy boy!
Swez SMILE
Same here... Shimano reels all the way around. Love em!
jamesp on 02/9/2007 11:52:52
In the last 2.5 years I have gotten behind in my fishing. Only 1 trip to Florida in 06 to Appalachicola. Since I have a real job and am not self employed for the first time 1985 I just have not been going as much as I used to.I havent cranked the motor on my "big" boat since September. I do fully intend to catch up on my fishing but there always seems to be something in the way that used to not impede my time on the water.I also seem to have lost my drive for hunting the last few years.
I had the golf hook in me pretty deep too, until I broke my back in a 4 wheeler mishap. It takes up more time than I am willing to devote to it these days.
The bottom line is just that Im getting old....but Im not going to let that stop me. I get mad at myself when I start feeling that a fishing trip can seem to be more work than Im willing to put into it. I used to never let that stop me, and while I would rather not be rushed, many times I have left w my fishing buddy on a minutes notice, called the wifey while on my way and driven down to Florida on Friday , fished Sat. and Sun. and driven back Sunday night. I just need to get some of the drive back that I used to have.lol
swez on 02/9/2007 12:30:32
Am thinking as we get older, men tend to weigh the hassles VS rewards side of things. When we were younger, it was easier to just chuck a bunch of gear in the truck/boat and just go.
Now, it's to a point that I just keep my gear ready to go at a moments notice and scaled back on how much I choose to take. It's easier wade fish the local streams, small lakes and ponds. Simple to have the waders, vest, a hat, a few rods & reels ready and just go. Everthing I need is in a duffle bag now. It's just a matter of grab and go now. In most cases, a 45 minute drive, suit up and we're in the water in about an hour. Simplicity adds to the enjoyment factor a lot huh?
My small boat has been sitting for 3-4 years now. But this spring, am planning to get it ready for use. This opens up more opportunities to fish bigger waters and work the deep holes and such. Nothin fancy at all, but rigging up some new lights, a fresh battery for the trolling motor and a good cleaning should do the trick.
This boat is only 12' long and perfect for 2 adults. It has a very wide beam, so one can fly fish while the other does the navigation and spinning gear routine. It's definitely not a 1st class Bass boat, but who cares... it's the skill and luck of the guys fishing that matters... not the $25,000 Ranger logo. hehe Yes, I'd love to have a 19 foot bass boat someday, but the boating season is so short here in MI, (May-October) is it really worth the expenses? If one could get out 2-3 times a week, yeah!
Swez
PS Define fishing: "A jerk on one end of the pole, waiting for a jerk at the other end of the line". "Bout sums it up huh?" Fish On!!!
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