Im aiming for simple setup like this one guys.
http://www.wickedcases.com/jeep/system.jpg
That looks like efficiant and ideal setup for a daily driver.
a master installer had mentioned this :
"My two Cerwin 12" in my IASCA car hit 151 in events on an Orion 280GX (160w x 2) and the same two subs are hitting 147.2dB in my Grand Cherokee on an Orion 2125SX now. (250w x 2) but I'm not into SPL competition at all. I much prefer sound quality, good imaging and soundstage, proper phase and so forth to the loud punks at stoplights."
I believe his box was 4.38 @ 30hz and with only 160 x 2 rms which is amazing.
Wonder if that orion 180gx had a subsonic filter or what he used.
Im def looking to do somthing like that with what i can find today.
Replies (12)
cplkittle on 01/30/2007 20:17:58
This is an old school setup. 2 components and 2 rear fill speakers running on channel 1 and 2 cerwin vega 12's on channel 2?
Honestly, you are better off with a 4 channel. You atleast get stereo sound that way.
151 is pretty high for 2 12's at 160 watts x2. That is one I would have to see to believe. Especially at 30Hz. 50 Hz maybe.
I'm not trying to knock everything this guy said, but he mentions sound quality, imaging and soundstage, proper phase and so forth.. Not all of these things come from one channel of a 2 channel amplifier.
MO on 01/30/2007 20:46:10
Well i can tell you that this guy is a honest guy and has been a installer for over 12 years and knows his stuff inside out.
I am also impressed with this spl db reading with that setup which is what made me so curious.
Besides i plan to build a efficiant setup just like that off of 2 amps.
ppi a300.2 and maybe a 500/1 and one or 2 really nice subs ported just like glasswolf had on this page.
Anyone else have any suggestions ?
P0werLifter on 01/30/2007 21:58:51
I have to agree with Kittle on this one. 151dB is an impressive number from two 12's with only 160watts of power.
SPL and SQ generally don't go hand in hand. From my own research and experiences in order to break the 150dB mark you have to have done a lot of testing and building enclosures just to hit that magic number and its usually off a single frequency. I've got a friend thats hitting 154's in a daily driver but he's running 2 15" Treos and 2 Memphis 4kw amps to em. I've seen others that get really loud with low wattage like the one listed above but its not in a daily driver enclosure. Another guy I know has almost broken 150dB with a single 8" with 600watts running to it.
Not saying its impossible, just improbable.
________________________________________
Your set up looks right for an efficient setup. Personally I'd run a single sub rather than two but I'm partial to single driver systems as most know :) .
What are you aiming for? SQ? SQL?
MO on 01/31/2007 00:46:31
Well i plan to change my car to a hatchback or SUV just to enjoy the experience of an SQ system that can get loud like mr glasswolfs system i posted above.
You do know that those Orion amps were underrated by a lot right? The old HCCA 250G4 and 275G4 says 50w rms x2 ad 75w rms x2. We all know that's not even close.
I think GlassWolf's bass achievement had lot to do with his box design.
Have you analyzed his statement? It was a Cherokee, meaning open cabin for the subs. In a sedan, the trunk muffles lot of the bass, some even seems like it's killing certain frequencies.
If you have test tones 20Hz - 300Hz, try it. You will see that not all cars resonate low frequencies the same. Some seem to "enhance" 60Hz, while others just about kill anything below 50Hz. Although you may have a box tuned to 30Hz, once it is in your trunk, it may not behave as designed.
You learn something new everyday.
P0werLifter on 01/31/2007 02:02:33
I have analyzed your statement before I made my post. Fact of the matter is I have done installs in Tahoes, Suburbans, Fullsize trucks, and hatchbacks. I understand that every car has a different resonant frequency and enclosure design has a huge effect of the overall capability to get loud.
To be quite frank I didn't post here for a debate on whether his system can hit the number stated. I stated my opinion on the matter and that was all.
Now whats your budget for your system? How much are you looking into for a sub(s) and have you looked into components? Hows your Head Unit?
-Thanks!
PL
MrBrownstone on 01/31/2007 02:40:32
Hitting numbers on a microphone is more like manipulating physics. Also, he probably didn't mention his amp was 'RATED' at 160 watts. Heck, phoenix Gold had a 50Wx2 amp that put out 1200W back in the day. Also, burptones aren't utilizing amps or speakers throughout the entire spectrum...simply one frequency for a short burst.
Harnessing acoustics is a skill...not a matter of math. You can't guarantee that with 2x the power you'll see 3dB readings higher. It's a lot more complicated than that.
PS we hit 151.8 with two 12" woofers...we moved up to 1 18" and hit 153...so it's not hard to conceive.
PPS Now, go from 153 to 160...you are talking the difference between falling off your tricycle to crashing a semi truck.
MO on 01/31/2007 11:10:55
Right now i have the following :
Pioneer DEH-P780MP and a Alpine CDA-9813 available
JL 500/1 good for any sub or subs.
2 old school PPI A600.2's for components or subs
KnuKonceptz 1/0 and 4 gauge wiring kits.
CDT HD62's components which i plan to sell once i sell my current car which its installed in already.
1 JL 12w6v2 sealed at 1.25cuft
I prefer the SQ overall with the ability to get loud when i whould like to. Right now i have the 500/1 and the 12w6v2 in the crown victoria and its not doing justice due to the trunk style and rear deck.
Im probably going to sell the CDT HD62's and find a component set that will sound great off of 75 watts rms aswell as subs that will sound good and get loud off of 500/1 amp.
Somthing more efficiant that has SQ and gets loud for a daily driver. I will consider a HO alternator if i have no other choice but im sure i whould be fine with a 500/1 and ppi a300.2
Thats 500-600rms from the 500/1 from 1.5-4 ohms.
75 x 2 @ 4 ohm which should be a clean 150rms for a good sounding comp set that doesnt cause fatigue after a 30 min drive etc... Somthing that can handle a strong clean 60-100 watts rms.
I listen to mostly RAP, Dance, Rock and high energy music with some international.
I can provide you with more info if you whould like.
I like brand such as Image Dynamics, JL, Treo, CDT, and many others
swez on 01/31/2007 22:34:36
Think I mentioned this before... since your sub is mounted in the trunk, cutting a pass through vent in the rear deck will greatly improve bass inside your cabin. (Especially the punchy stuff) There are several ways to accomplish this, but it is labor intensive. However, the results are stunning, compared to what you have now.
Also, to get the most from the rear deck speakers, they need a barrier of some kind to block the huge bass waves from your sub. Some use baffles while others make an enclosure for each rear speaker.
Is there something you don't like about the CDT HD Comps in front? If using the Ti tweeters, they can definitely give you "listener's fatigue", depending on the attenuator settings. A pair of silk domes would probably tone things down a lot too.
Say more MO,
Swez
MO on 01/31/2007 23:51:24
Actually i love my CDT HD62's and am using them right now in my crown vic. I use the DRT-26 silk dome tweeters and they are so forgiving and smooth. Impressive to say the least. The mids are just right and accurate.
If i do change cars which i plan to do. I whould like to sell my CDT HD62's and maybe get a more efficiant set of components. The CDT HD62's require a solid 150 - 200 rms to sound there best.
Again once i sell my cdt hd62's i will find a more efficiant set off about 50 - 100 watts rms max.
I will probably use a amp that will do a clean 50 x 4 @ 4 ohms or a 75 x 2 @ 4 ohm amp.
To choices so far are a ppi a404.2 or a ppi a300.2
Both are steller legendary amps.
I could try using the 12w6v2 in the new car off the 500/1 and see how it works out. I may try it out sealed and then ported.
Im open to subwoofer enclosure options aswell as other subs.
Let me know swez
swez on 02/1/2007 07:54:06
Consider demo's on the Infinity or JBL Comps with the 2 ohm coil system. These sound very good, very efficient and can use modest amps to get them up to adequate SPL levels too. They use 1" MMD tweeters and although they are not as smooth as silk domes, they still sound natural and able to cut through strong bass and not become overly harsh and overbearing either. The come in 5.25", 6.5" and 5x7/6x8" Comp versions too:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-241SZLMQheR/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=410&tab=detailed_info&i=108607CS#Tab
That JL sub/amp combo is really a good fit. The W7 would be a good upgrade if you wish, but in the right vehicle, no need. What are you considering as your next ride?
Swez
MO on 02/1/2007 08:55:26
1998 and up
Nissan Maxima, Honda Civic, Acura Integra, and other japanese rides. Reliable and good on gas and good for bass and SQ :)
swez on 02/1/2007 10:00:23
Cool... these often have flip down rear seats and bass SQL is often superior to a big trunk'd full size US made sedan.
Also, after working on a few of the Japanese sedans, they are generally easier to pimp than US made counterparts. About the only real issue you may have to address in a smaller sedan, is a low powered electrical system. (85A system VS a 110A system)
Once you find the vehicle of choice, we can look at your options.
Swez
http://www.wickedcases.com/jeep/system.jpg
That looks like efficiant and ideal setup for a daily driver.
a master installer had mentioned this :
"My two Cerwin 12" in my IASCA car hit 151 in events on an Orion 280GX (160w x 2) and the same two subs are hitting 147.2dB in my Grand Cherokee on an Orion 2125SX now. (250w x 2) but I'm not into SPL competition at all. I much prefer sound quality, good imaging and soundstage, proper phase and so forth to the loud punks at stoplights."
I believe his box was 4.38 @ 30hz and with only 160 x 2 rms which is amazing.
Wonder if that orion 180gx had a subsonic filter or what he used.
Im def looking to do somthing like that with what i can find today.
Replies (12)
cplkittle on 01/30/2007 20:17:58
This is an old school setup. 2 components and 2 rear fill speakers running on channel 1 and 2 cerwin vega 12's on channel 2?
Honestly, you are better off with a 4 channel. You atleast get stereo sound that way.
151 is pretty high for 2 12's at 160 watts x2. That is one I would have to see to believe. Especially at 30Hz. 50 Hz maybe.
I'm not trying to knock everything this guy said, but he mentions sound quality, imaging and soundstage, proper phase and so forth.. Not all of these things come from one channel of a 2 channel amplifier.
MO on 01/30/2007 20:46:10
Well i can tell you that this guy is a honest guy and has been a installer for over 12 years and knows his stuff inside out.
I am also impressed with this spl db reading with that setup which is what made me so curious.
Besides i plan to build a efficiant setup just like that off of 2 amps.
ppi a300.2 and maybe a 500/1 and one or 2 really nice subs ported just like glasswolf had on this page.
Anyone else have any suggestions ?
P0werLifter on 01/30/2007 21:58:51
I have to agree with Kittle on this one. 151dB is an impressive number from two 12's with only 160watts of power.
SPL and SQ generally don't go hand in hand. From my own research and experiences in order to break the 150dB mark you have to have done a lot of testing and building enclosures just to hit that magic number and its usually off a single frequency. I've got a friend thats hitting 154's in a daily driver but he's running 2 15" Treos and 2 Memphis 4kw amps to em. I've seen others that get really loud with low wattage like the one listed above but its not in a daily driver enclosure. Another guy I know has almost broken 150dB with a single 8" with 600watts running to it.
Not saying its impossible, just improbable.
________________________________________
Your set up looks right for an efficient setup. Personally I'd run a single sub rather than two but I'm partial to single driver systems as most know :) .
What are you aiming for? SQ? SQL?
MO on 01/31/2007 00:46:31
Well i plan to change my car to a hatchback or SUV just to enjoy the experience of an SQ system that can get loud like mr glasswolfs system i posted above.
You do know that those Orion amps were underrated by a lot right? The old HCCA 250G4 and 275G4 says 50w rms x2 ad 75w rms x2. We all know that's not even close.
I think GlassWolf's bass achievement had lot to do with his box design.
Have you analyzed his statement? It was a Cherokee, meaning open cabin for the subs. In a sedan, the trunk muffles lot of the bass, some even seems like it's killing certain frequencies.
If you have test tones 20Hz - 300Hz, try it. You will see that not all cars resonate low frequencies the same. Some seem to "enhance" 60Hz, while others just about kill anything below 50Hz. Although you may have a box tuned to 30Hz, once it is in your trunk, it may not behave as designed.
You learn something new everyday.
P0werLifter on 01/31/2007 02:02:33
I have analyzed your statement before I made my post. Fact of the matter is I have done installs in Tahoes, Suburbans, Fullsize trucks, and hatchbacks. I understand that every car has a different resonant frequency and enclosure design has a huge effect of the overall capability to get loud.
To be quite frank I didn't post here for a debate on whether his system can hit the number stated. I stated my opinion on the matter and that was all.
Now whats your budget for your system? How much are you looking into for a sub(s) and have you looked into components? Hows your Head Unit?
-Thanks!
PL
MrBrownstone on 01/31/2007 02:40:32
Hitting numbers on a microphone is more like manipulating physics. Also, he probably didn't mention his amp was 'RATED' at 160 watts. Heck, phoenix Gold had a 50Wx2 amp that put out 1200W back in the day. Also, burptones aren't utilizing amps or speakers throughout the entire spectrum...simply one frequency for a short burst.
Harnessing acoustics is a skill...not a matter of math. You can't guarantee that with 2x the power you'll see 3dB readings higher. It's a lot more complicated than that.
PS we hit 151.8 with two 12" woofers...we moved up to 1 18" and hit 153...so it's not hard to conceive.
PPS Now, go from 153 to 160...you are talking the difference between falling off your tricycle to crashing a semi truck.
MO on 01/31/2007 11:10:55
Right now i have the following :
Pioneer DEH-P780MP and a Alpine CDA-9813 available
JL 500/1 good for any sub or subs.
2 old school PPI A600.2's for components or subs
KnuKonceptz 1/0 and 4 gauge wiring kits.
CDT HD62's components which i plan to sell once i sell my current car which its installed in already.
1 JL 12w6v2 sealed at 1.25cuft
I prefer the SQ overall with the ability to get loud when i whould like to. Right now i have the 500/1 and the 12w6v2 in the crown victoria and its not doing justice due to the trunk style and rear deck.
Im probably going to sell the CDT HD62's and find a component set that will sound great off of 75 watts rms aswell as subs that will sound good and get loud off of 500/1 amp.
Somthing more efficiant that has SQ and gets loud for a daily driver. I will consider a HO alternator if i have no other choice but im sure i whould be fine with a 500/1 and ppi a300.2
Thats 500-600rms from the 500/1 from 1.5-4 ohms.
75 x 2 @ 4 ohm which should be a clean 150rms for a good sounding comp set that doesnt cause fatigue after a 30 min drive etc... Somthing that can handle a strong clean 60-100 watts rms.
I listen to mostly RAP, Dance, Rock and high energy music with some international.
I can provide you with more info if you whould like.
I like brand such as Image Dynamics, JL, Treo, CDT, and many others
swez on 01/31/2007 22:34:36
Think I mentioned this before... since your sub is mounted in the trunk, cutting a pass through vent in the rear deck will greatly improve bass inside your cabin. (Especially the punchy stuff) There are several ways to accomplish this, but it is labor intensive. However, the results are stunning, compared to what you have now.
Also, to get the most from the rear deck speakers, they need a barrier of some kind to block the huge bass waves from your sub. Some use baffles while others make an enclosure for each rear speaker.
Is there something you don't like about the CDT HD Comps in front? If using the Ti tweeters, they can definitely give you "listener's fatigue", depending on the attenuator settings. A pair of silk domes would probably tone things down a lot too.
Say more MO,
Swez
MO on 01/31/2007 23:51:24
Actually i love my CDT HD62's and am using them right now in my crown vic. I use the DRT-26 silk dome tweeters and they are so forgiving and smooth. Impressive to say the least. The mids are just right and accurate.
If i do change cars which i plan to do. I whould like to sell my CDT HD62's and maybe get a more efficiant set of components. The CDT HD62's require a solid 150 - 200 rms to sound there best.
Again once i sell my cdt hd62's i will find a more efficiant set off about 50 - 100 watts rms max.
I will probably use a amp that will do a clean 50 x 4 @ 4 ohms or a 75 x 2 @ 4 ohm amp.
To choices so far are a ppi a404.2 or a ppi a300.2
Both are steller legendary amps.
I could try using the 12w6v2 in the new car off the 500/1 and see how it works out. I may try it out sealed and then ported.
Im open to subwoofer enclosure options aswell as other subs.
Let me know swez
swez on 02/1/2007 07:54:06
Consider demo's on the Infinity or JBL Comps with the 2 ohm coil system. These sound very good, very efficient and can use modest amps to get them up to adequate SPL levels too. They use 1" MMD tweeters and although they are not as smooth as silk domes, they still sound natural and able to cut through strong bass and not become overly harsh and overbearing either. The come in 5.25", 6.5" and 5x7/6x8" Comp versions too:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-241SZLMQheR/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=410&tab=detailed_info&i=108607CS#Tab
That JL sub/amp combo is really a good fit. The W7 would be a good upgrade if you wish, but in the right vehicle, no need. What are you considering as your next ride?
Swez
MO on 02/1/2007 08:55:26
1998 and up
Nissan Maxima, Honda Civic, Acura Integra, and other japanese rides. Reliable and good on gas and good for bass and SQ :)
swez on 02/1/2007 10:00:23
Cool... these often have flip down rear seats and bass SQL is often superior to a big trunk'd full size US made sedan.
Also, after working on a few of the Japanese sedans, they are generally easier to pimp than US made counterparts. About the only real issue you may have to address in a smaller sedan, is a low powered electrical system. (85A system VS a 110A system)
Once you find the vehicle of choice, we can look at your options.
Swez
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