Good day to all.
Been puzzled by this for quite some time. Would installing new speaker wires (say 12 gauge) directly from the amp to the speakers make a big difference as compared to just tapping into the original factory wires. This concerns me specially on door panel speakers. It would be really tedious to install new speaker wires (like a lightning audio 12 gauge) directly from amp to speakers, but is it worth the pain.
Replies (12)
swez on 01/24/2007 08:54:32
Not really... #16 gage is typical in factory wiring and can handle well over 100 watts per line set. No need to go through all that with #12.
Swez
ttocs on 01/24/2007 09:12:45
will you hear a difference, probably not..... Do you know its there and MIGHT help? Yes....
cplkittle on 01/24/2007 19:51:29
12 is pretty big, and factory wiring is good wiring. Lightning audio 12 gauge wire is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-16 gauge if it were measured (you measure the copper, not the insulation). high strand true gauge wire is difficult to come by, and it is expensive. I have compared Monster cable, Tsunami, Raptor, Stinger, Sound quest, Audiobahn, Boss, and several others side by side, and Stinger is by far the best wire in terms of higher strand count per gauge, and closer to true size.
Bottom line, unless you have a pair of 300watt RMS door speakers, the factory should be more than enough to carry the current. (It's 50x larger than the single strand voice coil wire).
Plus you don't have to spend hours trying to run new wires through the door boot.
rldelrosario on 01/24/2007 20:08:28
Thanks guys. So it's more of cosmetics rather than functionality then. Like what ttocs mentioned, you can't really tell the difference, but knowing that its there would sure boost bragging rights. Anyway, installing them would be a good exercise, although i may not rush into it. Thanks again.
ttocs on 01/24/2007 23:43:36
good exercise? go join a gym........ I have had my hands up in too many doors and the boots going to them to consider that "good" exercise.
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 09:51:54
yeah, but you have to do it at least once, just to say you did.
swez on 01/25/2007 12:44:24
Oh please.... LOL
This is a very silly concept. Look at house wiring for some concrete answers.
#12 gage is rated for 20 amperes of current at a nominal 120 volts AC. The math says: 20 x 120 = 2400 watts are possible in that line.
#14 gage is rated for 15 amperes of current at a nominal 120 volts AC. The math says: 15 x 120 = 1800 watts are possible in that line.
OK admittedly, we do want to get every volt we can from the amplifier to a given set of speakers. To do this effectively, wiring has to have a very low resistance value, at a given length.
A common #16 gage wire has 4.2 ohms/1,000 ft. (0.042 ohms/10ft)
A common #12 gage wire has 1.7 ohms/1,000 ft. (0.017 ohms/10ft)
True, the #14 gage has ~40% more resistance than the same length of #12 wire, but since we are looking at very short runs, does this really matter? Only the guy doing the work can judge that one. However, when powering subs and using 1000 watt + amplifiers, we are best served by using larger gage wires as they have less inductive reactance and therefore, less attenuation at low frequencies.
If you want to look at the charts:
http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&&&www.bnoack.com/data/wire-resistance.html
Swez
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 19:08:42
umm Professor Swez, are the charts a reflection of AC or DC current, and does it matter what voltage you are using?
gotta give ya a hard time Mr. D
swez on 01/25/2007 21:53:00
Since audio signals are AC in nature, this refers to AC signals.
I knew someone would site the DC question and figured it would be Kit or Victor. Alas, DC is a different animal and we both know larger gage wires are better for low voltage DC power lines.
Hint: Look at the battery charging cables we often use to jump a dead battery. The good ones are often #4 gage or thicker for maximum power transferance. The same can be noted in welding cables. There's a good reason for this, but I cannot say why, but it just works. Ever use a pair of cheapie jumper cables and they just don't get the job done?
Frankly, I don't have specific details on why they differ, other than to say inductive impedence is most problematic at low AC frequencies and DC current. I have yet to read a definitive article on such properties, but if you run across a few, pass them along.
Swez
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 22:32:33
With that being said, what changes in speaker wires to produce different frequencies?
A) the frequency of the alternating current in Hz
B) the voltage of the alternating current
C) both
really I don't know, I just thought it would be cool to put in a multiple choice format.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/26/2007 01:03:04
Funny that this should show up here at a time that I came up with an insteresting discovery. I was using 12-14 gauge wire, doubled up. I removed one length of the cable, for the sake of connecting another sub in the near future, and response of my sub significantly increased. trippy stuff.
swez on 01/26/2007 09:39:42
That is very strange. It would be interesting to "quantify" the performance in some way. That would make it easier to explain.
The initial thought that comes to mind is some form of stray capacitive and inductive factors here. When we have two conductors in parallel, separated by an insulator, we have a simple capacitor.
Example: Wire 'A' ... dielectric layer....wire 'B' = a capcitor
The value of capacitance is based on the materials use as conductor materials and its "area". Then, we use a dielectric, (Insulator) of some given properties, sandwiched between the conductors. That nets some degree of capacitance.
Now, what does a capacitor do in AC signals? It filters or attenuates low frequencies. The frequencies most affected, are based on AC frequency and the load. (Resistance)
Read this and see if the theory makes sense:
http://www.bcae1.com/reactnce.htm
Swez
Been puzzled by this for quite some time. Would installing new speaker wires (say 12 gauge) directly from the amp to the speakers make a big difference as compared to just tapping into the original factory wires. This concerns me specially on door panel speakers. It would be really tedious to install new speaker wires (like a lightning audio 12 gauge) directly from amp to speakers, but is it worth the pain.
Replies (12)
swez on 01/24/2007 08:54:32
Not really... #16 gage is typical in factory wiring and can handle well over 100 watts per line set. No need to go through all that with #12.
Swez
ttocs on 01/24/2007 09:12:45
will you hear a difference, probably not..... Do you know its there and MIGHT help? Yes....
cplkittle on 01/24/2007 19:51:29
12 is pretty big, and factory wiring is good wiring. Lightning audio 12 gauge wire is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-16 gauge if it were measured (you measure the copper, not the insulation). high strand true gauge wire is difficult to come by, and it is expensive. I have compared Monster cable, Tsunami, Raptor, Stinger, Sound quest, Audiobahn, Boss, and several others side by side, and Stinger is by far the best wire in terms of higher strand count per gauge, and closer to true size.
Bottom line, unless you have a pair of 300watt RMS door speakers, the factory should be more than enough to carry the current. (It's 50x larger than the single strand voice coil wire).
Plus you don't have to spend hours trying to run new wires through the door boot.
rldelrosario on 01/24/2007 20:08:28
Thanks guys. So it's more of cosmetics rather than functionality then. Like what ttocs mentioned, you can't really tell the difference, but knowing that its there would sure boost bragging rights. Anyway, installing them would be a good exercise, although i may not rush into it. Thanks again.
ttocs on 01/24/2007 23:43:36
good exercise? go join a gym........ I have had my hands up in too many doors and the boots going to them to consider that "good" exercise.
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 09:51:54
yeah, but you have to do it at least once, just to say you did.
swez on 01/25/2007 12:44:24
Oh please.... LOL
This is a very silly concept. Look at house wiring for some concrete answers.
#12 gage is rated for 20 amperes of current at a nominal 120 volts AC. The math says: 20 x 120 = 2400 watts are possible in that line.
#14 gage is rated for 15 amperes of current at a nominal 120 volts AC. The math says: 15 x 120 = 1800 watts are possible in that line.
OK admittedly, we do want to get every volt we can from the amplifier to a given set of speakers. To do this effectively, wiring has to have a very low resistance value, at a given length.
A common #16 gage wire has 4.2 ohms/1,000 ft. (0.042 ohms/10ft)
A common #12 gage wire has 1.7 ohms/1,000 ft. (0.017 ohms/10ft)
True, the #14 gage has ~40% more resistance than the same length of #12 wire, but since we are looking at very short runs, does this really matter? Only the guy doing the work can judge that one. However, when powering subs and using 1000 watt + amplifiers, we are best served by using larger gage wires as they have less inductive reactance and therefore, less attenuation at low frequencies.
If you want to look at the charts:
http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&&&www.bnoack.com/data/wire-resistance.html
Swez
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 19:08:42
umm Professor Swez, are the charts a reflection of AC or DC current, and does it matter what voltage you are using?
gotta give ya a hard time Mr. D
swez on 01/25/2007 21:53:00
Since audio signals are AC in nature, this refers to AC signals.
I knew someone would site the DC question and figured it would be Kit or Victor. Alas, DC is a different animal and we both know larger gage wires are better for low voltage DC power lines.
Hint: Look at the battery charging cables we often use to jump a dead battery. The good ones are often #4 gage or thicker for maximum power transferance. The same can be noted in welding cables. There's a good reason for this, but I cannot say why, but it just works. Ever use a pair of cheapie jumper cables and they just don't get the job done?
Frankly, I don't have specific details on why they differ, other than to say inductive impedence is most problematic at low AC frequencies and DC current. I have yet to read a definitive article on such properties, but if you run across a few, pass them along.
Swez
cplkittle on 01/25/2007 22:32:33
With that being said, what changes in speaker wires to produce different frequencies?
A) the frequency of the alternating current in Hz
B) the voltage of the alternating current
C) both
really I don't know, I just thought it would be cool to put in a multiple choice format.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/26/2007 01:03:04
Funny that this should show up here at a time that I came up with an insteresting discovery. I was using 12-14 gauge wire, doubled up. I removed one length of the cable, for the sake of connecting another sub in the near future, and response of my sub significantly increased. trippy stuff.
swez on 01/26/2007 09:39:42
That is very strange. It would be interesting to "quantify" the performance in some way. That would make it easier to explain.
The initial thought that comes to mind is some form of stray capacitive and inductive factors here. When we have two conductors in parallel, separated by an insulator, we have a simple capacitor.
Example: Wire 'A' ... dielectric layer....wire 'B' = a capcitor
The value of capacitance is based on the materials use as conductor materials and its "area". Then, we use a dielectric, (Insulator) of some given properties, sandwiched between the conductors. That nets some degree of capacitance.
Now, what does a capacitor do in AC signals? It filters or attenuates low frequencies. The frequencies most affected, are based on AC frequency and the load. (Resistance)
Read this and see if the theory makes sense:
http://www.bcae1.com/reactnce.htm
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
