Anyone have any experience with these like the "wicked one"? I have been kicking the idea around of doing one for the mustang, but with 8"s....... I happen to have 4 mb quart 8's that I have access too (of course now looking back I also have 4 10" polk audio subs as well)and am not afraid of the box even though it would be the craziest I have ever built. Anyone ever played with this specifically with 8's?
Replies (57)
Victor on 01/18/2007 15:30:05
Have researched a lot on the Wicked one a year back, done a lot of drawings and plans.. never really went to the extent of actually building one, so cant say how they actually perform.
I got tonnes of material with me related to the wicked one.. could surely join you in this experiment...
Where are we at this stage..??
Design and Basics of the Wicked one are not too tough, they work on certain ratios which remain constant no matter what sub you use.. tho i doubt this desing to be successful with every 8 / 10 / 12 inch sub, as the specs vary a lot and some may plot a very boomy response.
time delay is another factor i am not sure how to handle with this specific design.
its too late here and i am damn sleepy, probably we cud take this up on yahoo messenger.
my id is
victorginger@yahoo.com
Victor...
ttocs on 01/18/2007 16:43:58
I have 4 mb quart 8's that I could use. They are a good sub although I do not have them with me at the moment and can't remember the model either.... Crap, now that I think of it those are the subs terry(teal) gave me along with some cash when I installed it clifford AG5 alarm. Glad I only did one of those and now that I think about it it would be a perfect "tribute" to the guy to put his subs in the craziest box we could design and build. He was never interested in doing it the easy way, just the best..... This would be a fun experiment and if we could do it right could look pretty cool as well. I would love to design it to stand up with the port side facing up to the rear window. I would also like to have the sides facing into the trunk as well as through to the cabin with the seats down, made outta plexi(maybe some leds fer show) just to show what it is. If there isn't enough space there I am considering a rear seat delet since all anybody does is complain when they are back there. I would rather hear sweet sound all the time then somebody complaining some of the time. I also hate that my knees are in the dash with even a small person in the back. I just don't know why they put the seat there..........
I am just not high tech enough to use messenger, and would love to get help with the calculations if you could. I was looking them over but I realize by doing that why I have always been a fan of sealed enclusures.
swez on 01/18/2007 21:46:05
This is one large Enchalada ttocs. One has to be very good on a table saw and get the angle cuts right too. Also, it's not a small format box either. Have a look:
http://www.decware.com/whorn.htm
Swez
ttocs on 01/18/2007 22:05:07
I have been over it and it doesn't scare me as far as the construction. I am confident that if I plan it out properly that I can make it. I am just not up to speed on the calculations that would be needed to get the best sound. The one I thought I saw used 4 subs facing each other in a clamshell push-pull type of configeration with a folded horn design. is that a different one? Anyone seen it?
cplkittle on 01/18/2007 22:07:29
From the picture you can almost guess the measurements.
Are you going to do an isobaric load?
I would do a dual like in the picture, and take the other two and put them in a ported box just for reference.
ttocs on 01/18/2007 23:00:51
doesn't look too bad really if you follow it step by step.
http://www.decware.com/whornok.htm
with 4 speakers.
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=64144&highlight=wicked
swez on 01/18/2007 23:00:57
Yes, this design will accomodate the Isobaric, (Clamshell) type loading with 4 subs. That would increase power handling of you needed it. Just be sure you have an amp that will match the load when fully loaded.
I'd go with Kit's suggestion and do one pair in the Wicked One and use the other pair for ported. Then you can use one set in the house and the other in your truck.
Decware does have a forum now and those who want detailed helps on such a project, am sure can get everything needed via that forum.
Swez
ttocs on 01/18/2007 23:09:30
my home stereo consists of two 115 lbs 5ft tall towers with 7 drivers each, including 2 powered 10's in each. I really don't need any more bass in there..... they are currently in a sealed box now I could use a reference as well. more power handling? more is better right???
ttocs on 01/19/2007 01:40:21
ah ha.....
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Wicked;action=display;num=1155583718
I just got done ripping the tint off of the windows of my truck and I am plannin on doing them this weekend(after the barett jackson auction saterday) and will have to get a sheet of wood amd hoperully some plexi after and start cuttin. I do not want the dust in the garage before I tint the windows... I think I have it worked out to make at least one of the tops from plexi to see it, I will just have to worry about keeping the inside clean enough that I will want to see it.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/19/2007 09:51:09
I like where this is going. You guys got me on the edge of my seat thinking about something like this. I really want to build a similar enclosure, so let me know how it works. That is also a cool tribute to your freind who passed on.
ttocs on 01/19/2007 11:17:31
I was also thinkin of what I would need to drive 4 8" speakers. I was thinkin old school with a PG M25 or M50 cheater amp. They can go down to 1 ohm mono easy and kick out the tunes like heck. If I did the mids and highs right I could get a 2nd one running the same way, and have my whole system powered by 100 watts(cheating). I always loved the M series amps, and come to think of it my boss has had a couple sitting in his store room for some time......
I hope to start this after the weekend but I am a heck of a procrastonator(as evidence by my truck) and the road to heck is paved with good intentions.....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/19/2007 11:26:30
Why is such low wattage cheating?
ttocs on 01/19/2007 16:18:25
they rate them at 4 ohms, but double their power every time you cut the impedence in half you double the pwr and they are 1/2 ohm stable. so 24 watts X 2 @4ohm, 48 X 2 @ 2ohm, 96 X 2 @1ohm, 192 Watts X 2 @ 1/2 ohm. you could run 2 of these amps at 1/2 ohm and enter the <100 watt catagory while be pushing much much more....
they just look cool too..........
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/24/2007 01:57:48
How is this project going, ttocs? Are these amps imposible to find now? And also, how would tou get the ohmage down to a half ohm?
ttocs on 01/24/2007 09:22:51
I started a topic at the wicked one forum asking for help and have a couple of responces that look promising to help, as well as I just sent a PM to victor. The design may or may not work since I want it wide and short but I am willing to try, as well as tweek it if I need to.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Car;action=display;num=1169180170;start=0#10
Right now I can't find any info on the speakers MB Quart QM200.92 to help with the design phase. I have already figured out how to build the box out of my garage. I will have home depot cut the top, bottom, and a bunch of strips the length of the pieces I would need for the internals(they are all the same height) and then use my neighbors chop saw to get the angles I need. I will build the top and bottom out of wood initially but if I can get it to sound good i will use them as guides for my router to make exact copies out of plexi to see it. I am also hoping to use all 4 subs inside rather then 2, I will have the length across.....
The design phase is taking longer then I like and reminding me why I liked sealed boxes.... Get the Vas, and then spend the next 5-10 mins remembering my algebra, done.....
Also eyeing couple PG M amps on ebay.......
Victor on 01/24/2007 14:30:59
hey scott, got a couple of innovative options which require no major changes in the design to fit your purpose.. you wanted to shrink the design to 15" to place in under the oepning as u stated in the decware forum post..
this one is just something that would seem soo stupid not to think off... and it can get u to a point where u can build a 10" tall box and easily slide it under the 15" mark ;).. where can we talk about this with picture illustrations i managed to quiclky sketch..
yahoo messenger : victorginger@yahoo.com
msn messenger : victorexports@hotmail.com
Victor...
Victor on 01/24/2007 14:43:22
if you wanna do an isobaric loading then u can get it done in 48" width x 18" height x 10" depth or a 48" width x 18" depth x 10" height...to be precise....
If you wanna load each of those 4 drivers seperately then you can do it in a 48" width x 36" depth x 10" height
I guess that should excite u a bit now GRIN...
you can even do a 20" x 24" x 18" for home audio use..
They are so simple modifications in the design that u can make them easily adaptable to your requirement...
If you have done the basics of designing and played with lego blocks in your childhood, then by reading the dimensions u may already have made out what those changes could be...IDEA
Ok.. try looking at the basic lay out of the WO, try cutting it into 2 identical pieces...
play around with them as 2 blocks each with different identity, then try mix matching those blocks in different ways...rotate, flip, invert , cut , copy, paste, visualising in 3 dimension is the key... and an IDEA will strike ;) have fun playing with those blocks...
I got some dirty little paintshop drawings here that could help you better.. where could i mail them to u...?? is this ur e-mail sorensenscott@hotmail.com..???
Victor....
I tried looking for the specs on your subs but couldnt find anything.. its time MBQuart did some customer support service...why dont u let them help you...i always like bothering the company fellas GRIN
ttocs on 01/24/2007 23:42:17
I did email them, have not heard back 2 days later.
I will join the 90's and sign up for msn messenger I guess, but when is a good time to catch you? I am in the mountain time zone of the us, not sure about you?
That is my email, look forward to the pics.
one thing I just remembered that we will need to take into account is the trunk opening is small, might have to go through the back seat if it is too big.
Victor on 01/25/2007 00:47:26
pictures -emailed....
I live in India.. and the time is +10:30 hrs to yours...
Victor..
Victor on 01/28/2007 15:49:41
Hey scott,
Did you receive the pictures i mailed you...??
What have you thought about.... are we going ahead with this project...??
Victor....
ttocs on 01/28/2007 21:20:43
yea I did get the drawings. Didn't mean to ignore you but been a crazy week between dr's, and insurance phone calls. Thanks for taking the time. I did some more measuring and drew up a design on paper that is to scale. I think the recommended airspace is .4 ft per sub. I have also made a list of supplies tha t I need to do so as well as the pieces of wood that I would need. Seems like since we do not know if it will work or not, or how well it would be easier just to build it and listen then to try and gues what will happen. I would like to try and start on it this week, then I will just need an amp to push it........
The other concern I realized was that I would have a hard time getting the box into the trunk since the trunk opening is so small. I figured out a way to build it into two halfs and put it together in the trunk.
Victor on 01/29/2007 00:38:22
do u mean 0.4 cuft for a sealed enclosure or for the Vr in 4th order bandpass enclosure...???
With the dimensions given in the drawings i sent you, the Vr would be a bit less then 0.7 cuft, consider the driver displacement and then adjust the interior wolume by adding bracings as required...
this is a very flexible design in terms of self adjusting to variations.. it should sound good and definitely loud..
cplkittle on 01/29/2007 01:43:28
I have been following this post and am thinking of giving this a try as well. Which design are you using? I noticed two types..
http://www.decware.com/wicked1.htm
and
http://www.decware.com/whorn.htm
I did build a ported box based on this design about a year ago that really impressed me. Instead of having the subs inside the box, I mounted them on the internal outward facing angles in front of the port opening. I changed the angle of the X so that the subs were 90 degrees from each other. It was more of a boredom experiment than anything. There was alot of cancellation, but between 35-40 it really sang.
Victor on 01/29/2007 02:33:02
This cabinet design employees two series of conical tapers that are mirror imaged and combined into a rapid flare resulting in a wide angle discharge.
Sharing the mouth of this horn between two conical tapers effectively gives you two horn flares each over 5 feet in length that fit into a box only 24 x 32 inches.
While this design is a variation of the original wicked one, it is more of a true horn where the driver is front loaded by the taper with a sealed box to load the back side. The original wicked one cabinet was larger and used two band pass boxes where the horn flares were used in place of ports.
An obvious difference between the WO32 flare design and a more conventional horn is that the taper shrinks to a point. The woofer is loaded on the sidewall of the taper firing directly into the adjacent surface less than 1 inch away. This technique over-dampens the woofer resulting in a flatter impedance curve, excellent power handling, and better linearity. The typical air space between the cone and throat has been almost eliminated. This creates a direct linear relationship between the air in the horn flare and the woofer driving it.
Courtesy http://www.decware.com/WO32/wo32.htm
But the plans for these are not available for free.. where as indepth details for WO are easily available....
ttocs on 01/29/2007 12:35:39
I was gonna do the 2nd one. I am also planning on playing with it for a while, switching the sub direction, as well as adding the 2nd set in a clamshell configeration that I have seen pics of.
Victory to answer your question, I was only able to get somebody to answer me that the recommended sealed volume was .4 cubic ft. What number/spec should I be looking for?
Victor on 01/29/2007 14:42:28
T/S parameters....
Inverting the sub wont make a lot of difference, probably you would get a bit more of low freqs at the cost of sacrificing a bit of transient response...
an isobaric loading would be a very good option for good tight controlled bass.. you can use more power too..
the dimensions in those drawings I send you seem pretty fine to me for loading those 4 subs in isobaric style...
As far as I see it, the 0.7 cuft you get in the Vr is good enuf for those subs, cause considering the sub displacement and also factoring the BP calculations ( depends on the T/S parameters ) .
but probably that sub wont need more than 0.7 cuft Vr in a 4th order bandpass if the sealed enclosure required s 0.4 cuft...
those are assumptions which are usually right but after all its an assumption... Precise T/S parameters would be the best to calculate the Volume required...
Also
You need to properly calculate the load / phase while wiring them to the amp and also decide wether you want to run them of a mono signal or a stero signal.. I would presonally prefer a mono for car applications..
Victor...
ttocs on 01/29/2007 18:10:03
I was probably going to go mono myself, my deck has a sub output with a good bass EQ(alpine 9857) that should help for tuning. I would love an old PG M50 amp bridged down to 3/4 ohm(subs are 3 ohm) but I will probably settle for an alpine pdx amp(accomodations are comming up) and bridge it to 3 ohms. I like the PDX series as they are so efficient. I already have some underdrive pullies for the motor that will add 8 hp, but may sacrifice some voltage at the same time. I am planning on upgrading the alternator to help, but that is down the list a bit.
I kept the box they came in, a single chamber sealed box that I can use as a comparison. They sounded pretty descent in there.....
OK, Who made this a FAQ? No pressure huh..........
swez on 01/29/2007 18:49:16
Quote: "OK, Who made this a FAQ? No pressure huh"
Too funny mang. I guess one of the Golds or Walt thought this one was note worthy enough to flag it as an FAQ. I agree... It's a bold step and not everyone has the time, talent and tools to create such a neat lil monster box.
Swez
cplkittle on 01/29/2007 19:53:11
I am bidding on 4 x 6.5" diamond M6 component midbass drivers at the moment. I am going to try the isobaric box if all speakers test out ok.
and it wasn't me.
Victor on 01/30/2007 00:22:31
Hehe.
Thats what I call assumptions and Optimisim..GRIN..
It was nothing but a wrong click and I marked this a FAQ by mistake.. lol........the mouse was drunk.....
Victor...
swez on 01/30/2007 06:21:54
I kinda figured it might be Victor... when his mouse has been drinking, it wanders off to many strange places... lol
I see the same effects on drunken monkeys too. GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 01/30/2007 12:44:46
great, victors drunk mouse strikes again.... I don't even want to know where that thing has been before it clicked the faq button. His or Mr B's...........
swez on 01/30/2007 13:48:58
I'm with you ttocs... let's go get a cold beer and discuss something more interesting...
Swez
PS I almost hate to ask... but how are you making out with that fellow on the stang forum? Last I checked, you guys are in agreement on several matters and awaiting the MO company to re-issue new funds? I sure hope this works out for both of you guys.
Victor on 01/30/2007 14:04:51
Ah.. come on,, I made a confession...!!!!!GRIN
cplkittle on 01/30/2007 17:46:46
Didn't you have problems with a mountain bike a few years ago, Ttocs?
ttocs on 01/30/2007 19:56:39
I thought I found my stolen bike a few years ago on ebay, was not the one after all.
We sent the MO receipts into the MO company and it will take a couple weeks to get the cash back. I still think he was out to screw me but changed his mind. I did how ever come across an even better deal on the same wheels with tires here locally, brand spankin new. He wanted to put them on an older fox body that they would not fit on, and then didn't want to have to pay to ship them back. They look great and the price was really right.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2395420/4
I stopped by a hardware store today to start getting supplies. I bought some wood fasteners that will allow me to use machine screws for the top and bottom. I plan on taking the top on and off more then a few times to tweek it so I wanted a good relaiable and re-usable screw system that will last. I also got a tool to help me measure the angles that I will need. With this and the chop saw it should be cake to get the angles perfect.
ttocs on 02/1/2007 22:58:22
I bought the wood yesterday and started the box today. Only problem so far is that my buddy's 10" chop saw will not cut my 12" pieces of wood that I need. It will take a little more time since I will have to make the angled cuts with my router and some sanding, but I got a start today. I have all the square pieces cut out and now will have to take a litte more time to finish the others. Hopefully not too long.....
Victor on 02/1/2007 23:28:36
Silicone , dont forget to use a lot of it at all the joints, since the construction of the WO uses a lot of angles you would need to make it sure that none of them leak air...
jamesp on 02/2/2007 07:52:00
Yes, unfortunatley a 10" mitre or 10" compound mitre saw will only cut a 45° angle on about a 4" board. If you go to a rental store and rent a 10" compound mitre slide or rail saw, some people call them sawbucks,you can easily cut your 10" wide boards at any angle. 1/2 day rent should be less than 20 bucks and will save you a lot of aggravation. A good homeowner model can be bought for about half of what they cost 10 years ago. It might not hold up to daily hauling around construction site abuse but would be great in your shop.
swez on 02/2/2007 10:35:13
What are the angles you have to make for this box ttocs?
Jamesp makes an almost good call on the sliding rail type miter saws. When cutting angles, is often limited to <12" of cutting width and that's at 90 degree (vertical cuts). When cutting angles, the board width in often about 8 inches at 48 degrees. This is with a 12" saw. (Even less cut width on a 10" blade) This saw may not get the job done on 12" or wider boards. It depends on the rail length of the slide and blade diameter.
A table saw is often limited to about 48 degree angle too. However, a table width shim stock of 0.5" - 1.0" thick x 1" width,on the right side of the blade, will elevate your cutting stock board and provide greater angle, (Bevel) cutting range. Also, this shim needs to be placed close to the blade as well. The location of of this shim stock in reference to the blade will also change the cutting angle, (Bevel) range available.
This will require a little experimentation to determine the proper angle to set the blade, to achieve the desired angle, (Bevel) cut you need. The thicker your shim, the greater the angle you can make the bevel. The trick is knowing the maximum blade height your saw can still cut at the blade angle needed.
Again, some careful measuring of angles needed and several test cuts will tell you the limits of such a jig.
Can you visualize what I am trying to put out here?
Swez
jamesp on 02/2/2007 12:08:29
I think my little Dewalt back fence sliding compound unit will cut a 0° to 48° angle at 90° on about a 13" board. Diagonally at the stops it is only about 7", maybe a bit more.
swez on 02/2/2007 14:43:38
That's funny as I looked up some DeWalt specs while researching what a contractor's level slider CP Miter can do.
As a contractor for over 8 years now, cannot afford to use cheap tools or homeowner type grades. They just don't hold up under heavy use and not worth the hassles.
Jim, did you understand my idea about using a table saw and shimming? Tried to make it clear and concise, but pics are better than words at times huh?
Swez
ttocs on 02/2/2007 16:16:26
I was planning on smoothing the corners with a layer of glass to help seal and strengthen them.
I only have a couple of pieces that I need to cut so I will probably fight through it. Heavy grit sand paper seems to cut through the mdf edges fairly well to shape them.
I am off to a slow start as last night around 10:00 there was a scratching at my door, turns out to be a 4 month old beagle puppy. I posted some signs at the mailboxes and figured somebody would be looking for him. I ended up listening to him cry most of the night.... Got up this morning and took my dog and him for a walk, we where halfway done when a lady in a car drove by, she had been looking for him all morning. Now at 2pm I find myself again getting out of bed.
swez on 02/2/2007 18:56:40
Good puppy story... all's well that ends well huh?
Yeah, a belt sander with 50 grit paper will make quick work on MDF. What I have done before, is mark lines on the top and bottom faces of a given board that needed to be beveled and then just let the belt sander do the work.
A light touch up with a medium file makes the faces flush and good enough to glue. After the glue cures, then you can sand off any high spots or chamfer the point if desired. If the glue did its job, no need for glassing unless you just want some added strength.
Swez
jamesp on 02/2/2007 22:35:24
Swez, yes, I know what you are talking about. I used to set up my table saw with some jigs to help me especially when working alone. My dad has "saw buck", that is what he always called it anyway. Its a real old Delta and has about 30" rails, It isnt a mitre but was made to cut large mouldings for trim and mantles. I always killed a lot of wood with it because it actually cuts the moulding right side up instead of inverted. In have a touch of dyslexia...a bit more than a touch, and even though to most people it is easier to use it messes me up.
I cleaned up in my shop some today, I want to build a ported box to try my sub out in. Im going to try and come up with some specs and would like to get your input before butchering the wood...just trying to learn a little..
swez on 02/3/2007 21:21:21
"SawBuck" refers to several items...
1. A $10.00 bill
2. A "Dime Bag" of weed
3. A series of "X" type support saw horses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawbuck
Swez
jamesp on 02/4/2007 17:52:05
Swez, in my post above I said the "sawbuck" wasnt a mitre saw, It is a mitre saw, it is not a chop saw. It works more like a radial arm saw but the saw head that you pull,rides and slides on rails. The name may have come from the legs of the table which unfold like a TV tray and are X shaped when set up.
I, umm, dont know anything about #2 above
swez on 02/4/2007 20:16:26
Yeah... Radial Arm saw....that's the term I was searching for...
#2: Ummmm, yeah... I believe you.... when I see pigs fly! LOL
Swez
ttocs on 02/5/2007 00:47:12
#2? wait, what are we talking about?
My dad has a radial arm saw in his little wood shop in the basement. Wish i had room for a workshop like that here.... No space in Az.
swez on 02/5/2007 07:09:03
#2 is a coded answer...
With all the fabrication experience you have gathered over the years, you'll be F.I.N.E. (Fouled-up, Insecure, Neurotic & Emotional) GRIN
Swez COFFEE
Victor on 02/5/2007 15:50:34
Hey scott...!
Hows the project proceeding...?? hope everythings going smooth from design to dimensions and its construction.....
And what amp have you finally decided to have with this WO....
I am waiting to hear about the actual results of this one... cause i am planning to build one soon... probably make it out of fibreglass tho...
ttocs on 02/6/2007 08:39:23
it is comming along. I realized that the corner near the throat would be hard to round off if I didn't do it before it was together so I took care of it over the weekend. I could only work for a couple hours at a time before the dust would bother my allergies bad enough I had to quit. Some edging and a little bondo and they look pretty good now. Mom and I are taking a roadtrip to tucson today or I would work on it some more.
Victor on 02/14/2007 01:25:22
Where are we scott...?? any further developments..?? hope you document this project well for future references with pictures and notes..
Do keep us updated....
Victor....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/14/2007 01:31:42
I'm with Victor on this one............
ttocs on 02/14/2007 12:50:22
been a couple set backs. The dust really seems to be bothering my allergies worse then normal. After a couple hours of work I was sick for a day even while using a resperator while cutting and sanding...
That was really the smallest of the set backs as I was willing to work through it. my mother has been staying with me for a little while now since I have been sick. My garage is small so I actually have to drop my passenger off outside my house, and then pull my truck in about 2 inches from the wall. For the mustang I drop my passenger off outside and then back it in the other side, again 2 inches from the wall. I have become very good at paking cars inches apart from one another after all the shops I have worked at. I don't get nervouse until it is less then 1" but mom is not that comfortable. I had the largest part of the box in between the 2 vehicles where I thought they would be safe but she showed me i was wrong by "nudging" it with the truck. I am happy to say that the corners I smoothed out made for a very stong bond as they held up as the box snapped inbetween the joints............
My buddy suprised me with tickets to the US Vs Mexico world cup tickets last week(he bought them in sept). We went out and had a great time, it was my first pro soccer game. As soon as I started backing the mustang into the garage and looking in my mirrors I saw the pieces laying there. I was really dissappointed as I had just finished those corners that day and was ready to continue with the rest but I certainly cannot yell at mom as she is an angel that just can't drive........ sucks but back to the start basically.
Victor on 02/14/2007 23:34:37
I agree, moms are darlings...
swez on 02/15/2007 01:02:15
Amen... Mom's are as human as anyone I know. I'll just leave it at that.
Swez
Replies (57)
Victor on 01/18/2007 15:30:05
Have researched a lot on the Wicked one a year back, done a lot of drawings and plans.. never really went to the extent of actually building one, so cant say how they actually perform.
I got tonnes of material with me related to the wicked one.. could surely join you in this experiment...
Where are we at this stage..??
Design and Basics of the Wicked one are not too tough, they work on certain ratios which remain constant no matter what sub you use.. tho i doubt this desing to be successful with every 8 / 10 / 12 inch sub, as the specs vary a lot and some may plot a very boomy response.
time delay is another factor i am not sure how to handle with this specific design.
its too late here and i am damn sleepy, probably we cud take this up on yahoo messenger.
my id is
victorginger@yahoo.com
Victor...
ttocs on 01/18/2007 16:43:58
I have 4 mb quart 8's that I could use. They are a good sub although I do not have them with me at the moment and can't remember the model either.... Crap, now that I think of it those are the subs terry(teal) gave me along with some cash when I installed it clifford AG5 alarm. Glad I only did one of those and now that I think about it it would be a perfect "tribute" to the guy to put his subs in the craziest box we could design and build. He was never interested in doing it the easy way, just the best..... This would be a fun experiment and if we could do it right could look pretty cool as well. I would love to design it to stand up with the port side facing up to the rear window. I would also like to have the sides facing into the trunk as well as through to the cabin with the seats down, made outta plexi(maybe some leds fer show) just to show what it is. If there isn't enough space there I am considering a rear seat delet since all anybody does is complain when they are back there. I would rather hear sweet sound all the time then somebody complaining some of the time. I also hate that my knees are in the dash with even a small person in the back. I just don't know why they put the seat there..........
I am just not high tech enough to use messenger, and would love to get help with the calculations if you could. I was looking them over but I realize by doing that why I have always been a fan of sealed enclusures.
swez on 01/18/2007 21:46:05
This is one large Enchalada ttocs. One has to be very good on a table saw and get the angle cuts right too. Also, it's not a small format box either. Have a look:
http://www.decware.com/whorn.htm
Swez
ttocs on 01/18/2007 22:05:07
I have been over it and it doesn't scare me as far as the construction. I am confident that if I plan it out properly that I can make it. I am just not up to speed on the calculations that would be needed to get the best sound. The one I thought I saw used 4 subs facing each other in a clamshell push-pull type of configeration with a folded horn design. is that a different one? Anyone seen it?
cplkittle on 01/18/2007 22:07:29
From the picture you can almost guess the measurements.
Are you going to do an isobaric load?
I would do a dual like in the picture, and take the other two and put them in a ported box just for reference.
ttocs on 01/18/2007 23:00:51
doesn't look too bad really if you follow it step by step.
http://www.decware.com/whornok.htm
with 4 speakers.
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=64144&highlight=wicked
swez on 01/18/2007 23:00:57
Yes, this design will accomodate the Isobaric, (Clamshell) type loading with 4 subs. That would increase power handling of you needed it. Just be sure you have an amp that will match the load when fully loaded.
I'd go with Kit's suggestion and do one pair in the Wicked One and use the other pair for ported. Then you can use one set in the house and the other in your truck.
Decware does have a forum now and those who want detailed helps on such a project, am sure can get everything needed via that forum.
Swez
ttocs on 01/18/2007 23:09:30
my home stereo consists of two 115 lbs 5ft tall towers with 7 drivers each, including 2 powered 10's in each. I really don't need any more bass in there..... they are currently in a sealed box now I could use a reference as well. more power handling? more is better right???
ttocs on 01/19/2007 01:40:21
ah ha.....
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Wicked;action=display;num=1155583718
I just got done ripping the tint off of the windows of my truck and I am plannin on doing them this weekend(after the barett jackson auction saterday) and will have to get a sheet of wood amd hoperully some plexi after and start cuttin. I do not want the dust in the garage before I tint the windows... I think I have it worked out to make at least one of the tops from plexi to see it, I will just have to worry about keeping the inside clean enough that I will want to see it.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/19/2007 09:51:09
I like where this is going. You guys got me on the edge of my seat thinking about something like this. I really want to build a similar enclosure, so let me know how it works. That is also a cool tribute to your freind who passed on.
ttocs on 01/19/2007 11:17:31
I was also thinkin of what I would need to drive 4 8" speakers. I was thinkin old school with a PG M25 or M50 cheater amp. They can go down to 1 ohm mono easy and kick out the tunes like heck. If I did the mids and highs right I could get a 2nd one running the same way, and have my whole system powered by 100 watts(cheating). I always loved the M series amps, and come to think of it my boss has had a couple sitting in his store room for some time......
I hope to start this after the weekend but I am a heck of a procrastonator(as evidence by my truck) and the road to heck is paved with good intentions.....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/19/2007 11:26:30
Why is such low wattage cheating?
ttocs on 01/19/2007 16:18:25
they rate them at 4 ohms, but double their power every time you cut the impedence in half you double the pwr and they are 1/2 ohm stable. so 24 watts X 2 @4ohm, 48 X 2 @ 2ohm, 96 X 2 @1ohm, 192 Watts X 2 @ 1/2 ohm. you could run 2 of these amps at 1/2 ohm and enter the <100 watt catagory while be pushing much much more....
they just look cool too..........
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 01/24/2007 01:57:48
How is this project going, ttocs? Are these amps imposible to find now? And also, how would tou get the ohmage down to a half ohm?
ttocs on 01/24/2007 09:22:51
I started a topic at the wicked one forum asking for help and have a couple of responces that look promising to help, as well as I just sent a PM to victor. The design may or may not work since I want it wide and short but I am willing to try, as well as tweek it if I need to.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Car;action=display;num=1169180170;start=0#10
Right now I can't find any info on the speakers MB Quart QM200.92 to help with the design phase. I have already figured out how to build the box out of my garage. I will have home depot cut the top, bottom, and a bunch of strips the length of the pieces I would need for the internals(they are all the same height) and then use my neighbors chop saw to get the angles I need. I will build the top and bottom out of wood initially but if I can get it to sound good i will use them as guides for my router to make exact copies out of plexi to see it. I am also hoping to use all 4 subs inside rather then 2, I will have the length across.....
The design phase is taking longer then I like and reminding me why I liked sealed boxes.... Get the Vas, and then spend the next 5-10 mins remembering my algebra, done.....
Also eyeing couple PG M amps on ebay.......
Victor on 01/24/2007 14:30:59
hey scott, got a couple of innovative options which require no major changes in the design to fit your purpose.. you wanted to shrink the design to 15" to place in under the oepning as u stated in the decware forum post..
this one is just something that would seem soo stupid not to think off... and it can get u to a point where u can build a 10" tall box and easily slide it under the 15" mark ;).. where can we talk about this with picture illustrations i managed to quiclky sketch..
yahoo messenger : victorginger@yahoo.com
msn messenger : victorexports@hotmail.com
Victor...
Victor on 01/24/2007 14:43:22
if you wanna do an isobaric loading then u can get it done in 48" width x 18" height x 10" depth or a 48" width x 18" depth x 10" height...to be precise....
If you wanna load each of those 4 drivers seperately then you can do it in a 48" width x 36" depth x 10" height
I guess that should excite u a bit now GRIN...
you can even do a 20" x 24" x 18" for home audio use..
They are so simple modifications in the design that u can make them easily adaptable to your requirement...
If you have done the basics of designing and played with lego blocks in your childhood, then by reading the dimensions u may already have made out what those changes could be...IDEA
Ok.. try looking at the basic lay out of the WO, try cutting it into 2 identical pieces...
play around with them as 2 blocks each with different identity, then try mix matching those blocks in different ways...rotate, flip, invert , cut , copy, paste, visualising in 3 dimension is the key... and an IDEA will strike ;) have fun playing with those blocks...
I got some dirty little paintshop drawings here that could help you better.. where could i mail them to u...?? is this ur e-mail sorensenscott@hotmail.com..???
Victor....
I tried looking for the specs on your subs but couldnt find anything.. its time MBQuart did some customer support service...why dont u let them help you...i always like bothering the company fellas GRIN
ttocs on 01/24/2007 23:42:17
I did email them, have not heard back 2 days later.
I will join the 90's and sign up for msn messenger I guess, but when is a good time to catch you? I am in the mountain time zone of the us, not sure about you?
That is my email, look forward to the pics.
one thing I just remembered that we will need to take into account is the trunk opening is small, might have to go through the back seat if it is too big.
Victor on 01/25/2007 00:47:26
pictures -emailed....
I live in India.. and the time is +10:30 hrs to yours...
Victor..
Victor on 01/28/2007 15:49:41
Hey scott,
Did you receive the pictures i mailed you...??
What have you thought about.... are we going ahead with this project...??
Victor....
ttocs on 01/28/2007 21:20:43
yea I did get the drawings. Didn't mean to ignore you but been a crazy week between dr's, and insurance phone calls. Thanks for taking the time. I did some more measuring and drew up a design on paper that is to scale. I think the recommended airspace is .4 ft per sub. I have also made a list of supplies tha t I need to do so as well as the pieces of wood that I would need. Seems like since we do not know if it will work or not, or how well it would be easier just to build it and listen then to try and gues what will happen. I would like to try and start on it this week, then I will just need an amp to push it........
The other concern I realized was that I would have a hard time getting the box into the trunk since the trunk opening is so small. I figured out a way to build it into two halfs and put it together in the trunk.
Victor on 01/29/2007 00:38:22
do u mean 0.4 cuft for a sealed enclosure or for the Vr in 4th order bandpass enclosure...???
With the dimensions given in the drawings i sent you, the Vr would be a bit less then 0.7 cuft, consider the driver displacement and then adjust the interior wolume by adding bracings as required...
this is a very flexible design in terms of self adjusting to variations.. it should sound good and definitely loud..
cplkittle on 01/29/2007 01:43:28
I have been following this post and am thinking of giving this a try as well. Which design are you using? I noticed two types..
http://www.decware.com/wicked1.htm
and
http://www.decware.com/whorn.htm
I did build a ported box based on this design about a year ago that really impressed me. Instead of having the subs inside the box, I mounted them on the internal outward facing angles in front of the port opening. I changed the angle of the X so that the subs were 90 degrees from each other. It was more of a boredom experiment than anything. There was alot of cancellation, but between 35-40 it really sang.
Victor on 01/29/2007 02:33:02
This cabinet design employees two series of conical tapers that are mirror imaged and combined into a rapid flare resulting in a wide angle discharge.
Sharing the mouth of this horn between two conical tapers effectively gives you two horn flares each over 5 feet in length that fit into a box only 24 x 32 inches.
While this design is a variation of the original wicked one, it is more of a true horn where the driver is front loaded by the taper with a sealed box to load the back side. The original wicked one cabinet was larger and used two band pass boxes where the horn flares were used in place of ports.
An obvious difference between the WO32 flare design and a more conventional horn is that the taper shrinks to a point. The woofer is loaded on the sidewall of the taper firing directly into the adjacent surface less than 1 inch away. This technique over-dampens the woofer resulting in a flatter impedance curve, excellent power handling, and better linearity. The typical air space between the cone and throat has been almost eliminated. This creates a direct linear relationship between the air in the horn flare and the woofer driving it.
Courtesy http://www.decware.com/WO32/wo32.htm
But the plans for these are not available for free.. where as indepth details for WO are easily available....
ttocs on 01/29/2007 12:35:39
I was gonna do the 2nd one. I am also planning on playing with it for a while, switching the sub direction, as well as adding the 2nd set in a clamshell configeration that I have seen pics of.
Victory to answer your question, I was only able to get somebody to answer me that the recommended sealed volume was .4 cubic ft. What number/spec should I be looking for?
Victor on 01/29/2007 14:42:28
T/S parameters....
Inverting the sub wont make a lot of difference, probably you would get a bit more of low freqs at the cost of sacrificing a bit of transient response...
an isobaric loading would be a very good option for good tight controlled bass.. you can use more power too..
the dimensions in those drawings I send you seem pretty fine to me for loading those 4 subs in isobaric style...
As far as I see it, the 0.7 cuft you get in the Vr is good enuf for those subs, cause considering the sub displacement and also factoring the BP calculations ( depends on the T/S parameters ) .
but probably that sub wont need more than 0.7 cuft Vr in a 4th order bandpass if the sealed enclosure required s 0.4 cuft...
those are assumptions which are usually right but after all its an assumption... Precise T/S parameters would be the best to calculate the Volume required...
Also
You need to properly calculate the load / phase while wiring them to the amp and also decide wether you want to run them of a mono signal or a stero signal.. I would presonally prefer a mono for car applications..
Victor...
ttocs on 01/29/2007 18:10:03
I was probably going to go mono myself, my deck has a sub output with a good bass EQ(alpine 9857) that should help for tuning. I would love an old PG M50 amp bridged down to 3/4 ohm(subs are 3 ohm) but I will probably settle for an alpine pdx amp(accomodations are comming up) and bridge it to 3 ohms. I like the PDX series as they are so efficient. I already have some underdrive pullies for the motor that will add 8 hp, but may sacrifice some voltage at the same time. I am planning on upgrading the alternator to help, but that is down the list a bit.
I kept the box they came in, a single chamber sealed box that I can use as a comparison. They sounded pretty descent in there.....
OK, Who made this a FAQ? No pressure huh..........
swez on 01/29/2007 18:49:16
Quote: "OK, Who made this a FAQ? No pressure huh"
Too funny mang. I guess one of the Golds or Walt thought this one was note worthy enough to flag it as an FAQ. I agree... It's a bold step and not everyone has the time, talent and tools to create such a neat lil monster box.
Swez
cplkittle on 01/29/2007 19:53:11
I am bidding on 4 x 6.5" diamond M6 component midbass drivers at the moment. I am going to try the isobaric box if all speakers test out ok.
and it wasn't me.
Victor on 01/30/2007 00:22:31
Hehe.
Thats what I call assumptions and Optimisim..GRIN..
It was nothing but a wrong click and I marked this a FAQ by mistake.. lol........the mouse was drunk.....
Victor...
swez on 01/30/2007 06:21:54
I kinda figured it might be Victor... when his mouse has been drinking, it wanders off to many strange places... lol
I see the same effects on drunken monkeys too. GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 01/30/2007 12:44:46
great, victors drunk mouse strikes again.... I don't even want to know where that thing has been before it clicked the faq button. His or Mr B's...........
swez on 01/30/2007 13:48:58
I'm with you ttocs... let's go get a cold beer and discuss something more interesting...
Swez
PS I almost hate to ask... but how are you making out with that fellow on the stang forum? Last I checked, you guys are in agreement on several matters and awaiting the MO company to re-issue new funds? I sure hope this works out for both of you guys.
Victor on 01/30/2007 14:04:51
Ah.. come on,, I made a confession...!!!!!GRIN
cplkittle on 01/30/2007 17:46:46
Didn't you have problems with a mountain bike a few years ago, Ttocs?
ttocs on 01/30/2007 19:56:39
I thought I found my stolen bike a few years ago on ebay, was not the one after all.
We sent the MO receipts into the MO company and it will take a couple weeks to get the cash back. I still think he was out to screw me but changed his mind. I did how ever come across an even better deal on the same wheels with tires here locally, brand spankin new. He wanted to put them on an older fox body that they would not fit on, and then didn't want to have to pay to ship them back. They look great and the price was really right.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2395420/4
I stopped by a hardware store today to start getting supplies. I bought some wood fasteners that will allow me to use machine screws for the top and bottom. I plan on taking the top on and off more then a few times to tweek it so I wanted a good relaiable and re-usable screw system that will last. I also got a tool to help me measure the angles that I will need. With this and the chop saw it should be cake to get the angles perfect.
ttocs on 02/1/2007 22:58:22
I bought the wood yesterday and started the box today. Only problem so far is that my buddy's 10" chop saw will not cut my 12" pieces of wood that I need. It will take a little more time since I will have to make the angled cuts with my router and some sanding, but I got a start today. I have all the square pieces cut out and now will have to take a litte more time to finish the others. Hopefully not too long.....
Victor on 02/1/2007 23:28:36
Silicone , dont forget to use a lot of it at all the joints, since the construction of the WO uses a lot of angles you would need to make it sure that none of them leak air...
jamesp on 02/2/2007 07:52:00
Yes, unfortunatley a 10" mitre or 10" compound mitre saw will only cut a 45° angle on about a 4" board. If you go to a rental store and rent a 10" compound mitre slide or rail saw, some people call them sawbucks,you can easily cut your 10" wide boards at any angle. 1/2 day rent should be less than 20 bucks and will save you a lot of aggravation. A good homeowner model can be bought for about half of what they cost 10 years ago. It might not hold up to daily hauling around construction site abuse but would be great in your shop.
swez on 02/2/2007 10:35:13
What are the angles you have to make for this box ttocs?
Jamesp makes an almost good call on the sliding rail type miter saws. When cutting angles, is often limited to <12" of cutting width and that's at 90 degree (vertical cuts). When cutting angles, the board width in often about 8 inches at 48 degrees. This is with a 12" saw. (Even less cut width on a 10" blade) This saw may not get the job done on 12" or wider boards. It depends on the rail length of the slide and blade diameter.
A table saw is often limited to about 48 degree angle too. However, a table width shim stock of 0.5" - 1.0" thick x 1" width,on the right side of the blade, will elevate your cutting stock board and provide greater angle, (Bevel) cutting range. Also, this shim needs to be placed close to the blade as well. The location of of this shim stock in reference to the blade will also change the cutting angle, (Bevel) range available.
This will require a little experimentation to determine the proper angle to set the blade, to achieve the desired angle, (Bevel) cut you need. The thicker your shim, the greater the angle you can make the bevel. The trick is knowing the maximum blade height your saw can still cut at the blade angle needed.
Again, some careful measuring of angles needed and several test cuts will tell you the limits of such a jig.
Can you visualize what I am trying to put out here?
Swez
jamesp on 02/2/2007 12:08:29
I think my little Dewalt back fence sliding compound unit will cut a 0° to 48° angle at 90° on about a 13" board. Diagonally at the stops it is only about 7", maybe a bit more.
swez on 02/2/2007 14:43:38
That's funny as I looked up some DeWalt specs while researching what a contractor's level slider CP Miter can do.
As a contractor for over 8 years now, cannot afford to use cheap tools or homeowner type grades. They just don't hold up under heavy use and not worth the hassles.
Jim, did you understand my idea about using a table saw and shimming? Tried to make it clear and concise, but pics are better than words at times huh?
Swez
ttocs on 02/2/2007 16:16:26
I was planning on smoothing the corners with a layer of glass to help seal and strengthen them.
I only have a couple of pieces that I need to cut so I will probably fight through it. Heavy grit sand paper seems to cut through the mdf edges fairly well to shape them.
I am off to a slow start as last night around 10:00 there was a scratching at my door, turns out to be a 4 month old beagle puppy. I posted some signs at the mailboxes and figured somebody would be looking for him. I ended up listening to him cry most of the night.... Got up this morning and took my dog and him for a walk, we where halfway done when a lady in a car drove by, she had been looking for him all morning. Now at 2pm I find myself again getting out of bed.
swez on 02/2/2007 18:56:40
Good puppy story... all's well that ends well huh?
Yeah, a belt sander with 50 grit paper will make quick work on MDF. What I have done before, is mark lines on the top and bottom faces of a given board that needed to be beveled and then just let the belt sander do the work.
A light touch up with a medium file makes the faces flush and good enough to glue. After the glue cures, then you can sand off any high spots or chamfer the point if desired. If the glue did its job, no need for glassing unless you just want some added strength.
Swez
jamesp on 02/2/2007 22:35:24
Swez, yes, I know what you are talking about. I used to set up my table saw with some jigs to help me especially when working alone. My dad has "saw buck", that is what he always called it anyway. Its a real old Delta and has about 30" rails, It isnt a mitre but was made to cut large mouldings for trim and mantles. I always killed a lot of wood with it because it actually cuts the moulding right side up instead of inverted. In have a touch of dyslexia...a bit more than a touch, and even though to most people it is easier to use it messes me up.
I cleaned up in my shop some today, I want to build a ported box to try my sub out in. Im going to try and come up with some specs and would like to get your input before butchering the wood...just trying to learn a little..
swez on 02/3/2007 21:21:21
"SawBuck" refers to several items...
1. A $10.00 bill
2. A "Dime Bag" of weed
3. A series of "X" type support saw horses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawbuck
Swez
jamesp on 02/4/2007 17:52:05
Swez, in my post above I said the "sawbuck" wasnt a mitre saw, It is a mitre saw, it is not a chop saw. It works more like a radial arm saw but the saw head that you pull,rides and slides on rails. The name may have come from the legs of the table which unfold like a TV tray and are X shaped when set up.
I, umm, dont know anything about #2 above
swez on 02/4/2007 20:16:26
Yeah... Radial Arm saw....that's the term I was searching for...
#2: Ummmm, yeah... I believe you.... when I see pigs fly! LOL
Swez
ttocs on 02/5/2007 00:47:12
#2? wait, what are we talking about?
My dad has a radial arm saw in his little wood shop in the basement. Wish i had room for a workshop like that here.... No space in Az.
swez on 02/5/2007 07:09:03
#2 is a coded answer...
With all the fabrication experience you have gathered over the years, you'll be F.I.N.E. (Fouled-up, Insecure, Neurotic & Emotional) GRIN
Swez COFFEE
Victor on 02/5/2007 15:50:34
Hey scott...!
Hows the project proceeding...?? hope everythings going smooth from design to dimensions and its construction.....
And what amp have you finally decided to have with this WO....
I am waiting to hear about the actual results of this one... cause i am planning to build one soon... probably make it out of fibreglass tho...
ttocs on 02/6/2007 08:39:23
it is comming along. I realized that the corner near the throat would be hard to round off if I didn't do it before it was together so I took care of it over the weekend. I could only work for a couple hours at a time before the dust would bother my allergies bad enough I had to quit. Some edging and a little bondo and they look pretty good now. Mom and I are taking a roadtrip to tucson today or I would work on it some more.
Victor on 02/14/2007 01:25:22
Where are we scott...?? any further developments..?? hope you document this project well for future references with pictures and notes..
Do keep us updated....
Victor....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 02/14/2007 01:31:42
I'm with Victor on this one............
ttocs on 02/14/2007 12:50:22
been a couple set backs. The dust really seems to be bothering my allergies worse then normal. After a couple hours of work I was sick for a day even while using a resperator while cutting and sanding...
That was really the smallest of the set backs as I was willing to work through it. my mother has been staying with me for a little while now since I have been sick. My garage is small so I actually have to drop my passenger off outside my house, and then pull my truck in about 2 inches from the wall. For the mustang I drop my passenger off outside and then back it in the other side, again 2 inches from the wall. I have become very good at paking cars inches apart from one another after all the shops I have worked at. I don't get nervouse until it is less then 1" but mom is not that comfortable. I had the largest part of the box in between the 2 vehicles where I thought they would be safe but she showed me i was wrong by "nudging" it with the truck. I am happy to say that the corners I smoothed out made for a very stong bond as they held up as the box snapped inbetween the joints............
My buddy suprised me with tickets to the US Vs Mexico world cup tickets last week(he bought them in sept). We went out and had a great time, it was my first pro soccer game. As soon as I started backing the mustang into the garage and looking in my mirrors I saw the pieces laying there. I was really dissappointed as I had just finished those corners that day and was ready to continue with the rest but I certainly cannot yell at mom as she is an angel that just can't drive........ sucks but back to the start basically.
Victor on 02/14/2007 23:34:37
I agree, moms are darlings...
swez on 02/15/2007 01:02:15
Amen... Mom's are as human as anyone I know. I'll just leave it at that.
Swez
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