After several types of enclosures and different size subs, I've can only come up with one answer. This suv must have a natural bad peak in the midbass and not a dip in the lower register as thought before.
I've ran 8's, 10's, and a hefty 12". The 12" presented the lowest f3 in the sealed category, while the 8" was designed with the lowest ported. All produced somewhat similar results; the EQ had to be adjusted in the upper bass register for more flatter results. I thought at one time that it had a lot to do with the rolloff not being low enough, but that does not seem the case. After recent playing around I found that lowering 160 and 200hz has a better effect than the usual 80hz that I played with (I'm currently using a Pioneer HU with an EZ-EQ).
.
After the last enclosure (8's slot ported and tuned to 40hz), it still produced a lot of unwanted harmonics somewhere in the 150-200hz range. 80hz seemingly, has an slightly better effect upon the subs frequency range though it's adds a little muddiness. That isn't so bad for more low end, but isn't so good either. Decreasing this range has degradent effect on the current midbass produced from the front stage. After trying the 160 & 200hz adjustment, the sub seem to be more responsive with better than before low end.
Am I crazy? I really must get a laptop with a RTA soon!
I'm even comtemplating designing a compact low ripple bandpass to see if that will produce better results within the 30-80hz range. I'm projecting that this will help stave off the unwanted midbass, then I won't have to adjust the eq and effect the doors. A simple separate front/rear eq might work, yet I don't really want to add to all the stuff I'm running (HU, 2 amps, {planned} separate x-over, and Kove processor).
Making any sense? What's your input?
Replies (15)
swez on 01/15/2007 09:57:29
Hummm, this is interesting but also a bit perplexing too. It would seem that filtering the subs at 80-100 Hz would knock out upper harmonics well enough unless the LPF is only a -6dB filtering network. (Not likely unless you had only a passive coil filter) The other thought here... the LPF on your sub amp is way off calibration???
Have you tried adjusting the crossover networks to say 60 Hz and see what happens under that scenario? It would be easier to isolate the problem by shutting off the sub and then adjusting your full range speakers to get the best from them. Then bring up the sub level until you find the sweet spot for them as well?
Yes, an RTA would definitely help isolate peaks and dips when using Pink noise as the audio source. This tool would allow you to get as close to flat response as possible for reference purposes. But when listening to various CD's, recording engineers have the last word. No two engineers have the same tastes, tools or skill levels either. That makes this target even harder to nail down.
Comments?
Swez
Ash on 01/15/2007 10:41:52
I have tried all sub combos with the low pass 80hz and under. Right now, it is around 50-60hz on the dial even though I doubt it is dead on accurate.
I found the sweet spot with a very nice midbass blend to where the subs disappeared, yet low end lacked on all subs. Some more than others. I figured a simple solution is to have a higher output low end than midbass on the sub which might work better. Could use a high power sub in a very low Q box (Qtc= .57- .69). Might be too muddy though. One sub thought of is the Dayton Reference HO 10". Uses micro enclosures as well.
Funny thing is US Acoustics uses a 24db slope! You would think that would be enough. That obviously is not the case.
I don't mind sacrificing efficiency for low end for it is to only complement the fronts, but the use of large subs in a large box isn't going to cut it either. The problem will still remain (Dayton 12"). Tried that one in about 1.2 ft^3 with a f3 of 43hz. Good output for a single sub. Low end still was better with 80-100hz adjustment. Tried it in a 1.6 ft^3 sealed.... overbearing!
After doing some modeling on WIN ISD, the 8's seem like they will give good results with a passband between 36-100hz. This and a fairly compact enclosure. Only negative is the -3db down output for the whole pass band compared to vented and sealed. Still might not be as bad as thought. I don't want SPL, I just want low end without clunkiness. That should be a fair tradeoff.
My music tastes are fairly wide (jazz, electronica, bass, r&b, hip hop, & bumper). The difference in music styles and producers ears is well noted with some having better system performance than most. I can live with it.
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 10:50:31
Back when i worked for a company that had an RTA, I did notice that I didn't have to make any adjustments to the 150-250Hz range, it was naturally flat in my SUV (kia sportage) but it is a small SUV. I had peaks and valleys in other places, but the midbass was up to par, backing up Ash's theory of more and not less. I have made alot of changes since then, but I was dealing primarily with the same 5 1/4 comps and 6.5 comps. I always had a bad peak in the 1.2-4.0 kHz range. I wonder how much of it has to do with the speakers.
As far as recording engineers go, I wonder what their target vehicle is for standard. If you use an all factory setup, you can bet your rear that it is going to be over-enhanced in some areas, and will be a nightmare to setup in an aftermarket atmosphere.
I find myself constantly changing the EQ settings in my car. The biggest complaint I have is the dramatic difference of the 12-16kHz range from song to song. Some songs have a well balanced high end, and some are just downright annoying. I can't tell a difference anymore when adjusting the 18-20kHz range. I guess that part of my hearing is gone for good. I remember being able to hear it in highschool when I bought my first 11band EQ.
Ash on 01/15/2007 11:14:39
I'm quite sure they have some exquisite stuff in their rides (cost wise anyways). Probably Bose... LOL!
This seems to be the only explanation for why each sub combo still needs some sort of upper bass eq-ing. An eq is always a good thing, but I feel it is better to design the drivers to play around the natural peaks and dips if possible. Then you can eq to fine tune things a little.
So CP', how did you overcome that problem or is it still there? I wonder how many small suv owners may have come across that problem or even notice it? They probably just thought the subs performance was inferior...
SPL wise I guess it wouldn't matter, as long as they felt the bass.....
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 11:34:19
I have 6 custom eq presets on my HU (alpine CDA-9835) all of them have a compensating dip at 1.6kHz usually -3db with a q factor of 1. I spent a couple of hours adjusting them with preset 1 being heavy on bass and a little heavy on the highs and preset 6 being more evened out. They graduate from heavy to moderate so it is easier to change by preset while I am driving.
The subs do well I think it is more the mids and the cabin gain. My 12's are crossed out at 60, and the sealed 10 is crossed out at 125.
Victor on 01/15/2007 17:07:05
I had a similar problem in an install I did a year back,
Derived a few conclusions
1 - Speaker directly exposed to the listening environment ( unlike rooms a car is a smaller envidonment and varied in terms or absorbtion and reflection and over laping and cancelling of waves, there are bound to be peaks and dips of a higher intensity then the room )
2 - Subs move the highest amount or air, and hence cause the maximum interference to sound emenating from other speakers.
3 - In a sedan the sub is isolated from the direct listening environment, what we listen in the cabin is much different from what it actually sounds in the boot , as much of unwanted resonance, ripples and peaks are filtered out as the sound reaches the listening environment..Along with this what the sedan does is it reduces the bass energy that reaches the cabin and hence it is always easier to achieve a higher spl in a SUV then a sedan.
What i have noticed is that many people pay the least attention to treating the car, the interiors or the listening environment as compared to the time and money they spend in researching about and buying the electronic and sound equipments. One needs to give a higher priority to the listening environment cause its the basic foundation of building a car audio system.
The environment we listen in come foremost even before u install the system.
what i see of your issue is a heavy overlap of 150-200hz waves...
how to deal with this..
1 - reduce resonating objects, material in the interior of the car.
2 - heavily sound dampen the entire car to alter the resonating freq of the sheet metal.
3 - cut off the unwanted frequencies gradually, bit by bits in steps..
for ex.
Set your HU eq low freq cut off's at 80Hz,Amp at 60Hz and the sub tuned around 35Hz it filters out more effectively than using just the HU or the AMP Xovers.
4 - While tweaking, begin with the steepest slopes and highest Q available to avoid marjor overlaps.
5 - This will give u a few voids in some freq range, which can be compensated later on.
Tweak Each speaker in a stand alone mode first. ie. Bass producing speakers, MB producing speakers, MR and Highs producing speakers as individuals that produce the same freq range.
Try Blending bass with highs, mids with highs, mids with bass, mr with mb as pairs. introduce the other freq ranges one by one. You may need to alter the slope and Q a bit for a good blend.
6 - Try isolating the speaker from directly radiating into the listening environment.
One way to do this is what u have already thought about ie. a BP tuned in the region or 30 to 70/80 Hz.. after all its a box in a box, meaning a lot of filteration before the sound reaches you. but one disadvantage here wud be the size of the box. And the use of a very good BP filter to avoid the ripple effect.
The simplest ( though it aint that simple ) form of a BP filter would be a Series or Parallel RLC , which you can design and make yourself after u do the math and find the parts of the values derived from the eqautions given here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit
A Quater wavelength Transmission line cud be another way out but with a similar trade off when it comes to size of the box.
since the mids radiate directly into the listening environment they also need to be handled well.
They are usually rated that they can go down well till 50Hz. well of all those i have heard till now, there are barely any good comps which can go clean and not create unwanted harmonics. I prefer cutting off the comps around 100 to 125Hz to help them play other freq better without making them work on unwanted freq which they anyways are not going to produce well. Again with a steeper slope.
Probably it may not be a peak amplitute wise, but a very distorted freq range that sounds harsh and gives an impression that the bass is not correct.
The comps are saved with a lot of stress , as the same motor and the same radiating surface has to produce a wide range of freq that too in an overlapping format as the music we listen to are not test tones they are a blend of over laps of freqs, its alwyas better to not load them with a freq they are not designed or incapable to handle.
The same theory applies when we use a Subsonic filter on subs..
that is very important too. A SS filter is necessary with a proted enclosure , but i even prefer using one on a sealed enclosure too, to block out freqs below 25Hz.
Enclosing the Mids in a proper sized enclosure is another requirement. As for home audio its possible to give a spec enclosure, but for car audio we are limited to using the door volume as an enclosure. Pods are a very good option and are generally noticed to produce better quality MB response.
This is all I would say for now as a feedback would be required before we could think of another solution. almost all of the SUV's I have done till now, did sound pretty sweet after these things were taken care of.
comments...
Victor..
swez on 01/15/2007 19:38:47
When he speaks.... he says a lot huh?
Actually, I'd have to agree with you on many points based on similar experimentation. The acoustical properties of any given listening area are always a tough battle. (Mobile audio has go to be the biggest nightmare for SQ guys, due to panel vibrations, reflections, cancellation nodes and additive crossover point overlaps)
One thing I have noted... when possible, do all your critical listening and tweaking in the dark. There's just something about shutting off the visual sensories and going strickly on what we hear, that seems to heighten audible acquity. I cannot explain it... but it just works. Use a good flashlight while adjusting, but the darker the work area, the better.
Have also noted that front and rear speakers do sound cleaner at high SPL's when they are rolled off somewhat higher than 60 Hz. Since there is no real enclosure to control the low frequency cones, they are either very stiff and low bass is poor, or the cones are not dampened adequately and get very muddy/sloppy with higher SLP levels. Hard to get a good middle ground here w/o a decent MB driver in a well matched box.
Finally, do all the critical tuning and such at very modest SPL levels. (Say 90-95 dB) That's only a few watts per speaker for most systems. But this is where we can detect the subtle adjustments. Above 100 dB, the brain begins to trigger our ears to go into "protection mode" and we lose acquity rapidly. My guess is that most get numbed out in about 10 minutes and don't even realize how poor the mix is, until we shut it off and come back later to try again. Then we pick up where we left off and wonder is some drunken sailor was in there before???
Swez
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 20:55:30
I agree with everything Victor said, but what is the difference or benifit of spending hours setting crossover points v/s 30 seconds dropping the level with the EQ?
Victor on 01/16/2007 00:12:24
Whats the difference in living with the girl u just married - and living with the girl u married before 5 years.. ??? THINK
Well you just come to know your system better, the way it behaves with sound. hours and hours of listening to your system and tweaking it at each level with minute detail helps smoothen the response to a great extent..
After 5 years you would know ur wife well. Make her talk sweet and train her well so that she doesnt make those harsh sounds. GRIN
Try using music that you are faimliar with , a variety of music would help better. Test tones are vry helpful but provided you ahve an RTA or atleast a caliberated mic and a RTA software. Orelse day to day music you listen would be the best choice, cause everytime you drive you wont be planning to put a 30Hz test tone to give ur girlfriend some orgasmic pleasure....GRINGRINGRIN
Dave... whats this new story about "The Darkness"..?? hehehehe..
dunno why but I have genrally done most tweaking in my system during the nights, probably because i never got good time during the day , need no disturbance too, also during the night there are no external sound interferences as during the day.
Its just too silent , and hence you can hear a lot more detailed sound than u can during the day time due to other ambient noises.
Victor...
cplkittle on 01/16/2007 00:25:14
lol, and I am lucky to have a wife that enjoys my work.
I am having troubles with the training though GRIN
Victor on 01/16/2007 00:44:30
Well, Probably the system is you and your wife the tweaking expert...SMILE...
Ask her if she's ever had trouble training you..?? GRIN
cplkittle on 01/16/2007 04:45:55
I think she has done a pretty good job training me. I sack up the garbage when it is full, put the toilet lid down, rinse off my dishes, make sure my dirty clothes go in the basket, fold up the blanket on the cou.....wait a minute... I think I've been housebroken without realizing it. or maybe even...'gulp'....whipped! Women are evil !!!
Ash on 01/16/2007 06:33:50
A mouthfull said! Plain and simple, to find and correct the nasty culprits an RTA will be a good help. That and a few other items I'm looking to get in a month or so will help.
Even though it's not a fix all, it is an setup aide and should produce quicker results than tinkering & guessing without knowing. I have had so many problems in the blazer trying to get the sound I want it is ridiculous. Buying "bigger and better" drivers may not be the answer as most would reccommend. I believe it will be targeting certain frequencies apparent in this particular environment.
As far as the BP goes, I'm hoping this could be the answer as I have noticed the same as Vic stated. At least in the rear. I have listened to the fronts alone and currently the sub is disconnected. There are a few problems existing that I have some solutions to.
To put you in mind:
There are 4" mids (Audax) in the dash using the amp's x-over (hipass @ 240). That is the highest setting on the amp. With just those and the sub I get a better blend, but it is too much stress on them and that should tell you how much midbass is being produced.
Using the same series 6.5" in the doors for MB only, an MTX x-over has the settings I need to shift the point into 300-400hz. That should eliminate that.
More on that later if you need, gotta head to work!
Victor on 01/16/2007 07:24:12
By the way, most of those Suv's I did had no rear or smaller rear speakers, just good front comps and even a 4"er could do pretty well for the rear fill.
Regarding the BP, you need to be careful as there will be a good lot bump in the passband, and if your car's acoustics amplify that bump even more, your are going to be in a Booooooooooom Car, with unbalanced mids and highs.
Victor....
swez on 01/16/2007 08:47:39
Tuning at night is like you say. Things quiet down and the ambient noise is less of a factor and not as distracting.
Uhmmm... Vic, the culture is very different here in the USA. Girls are taught from a very young age to train a child/man up right. (Well, in thier minds anyway) This is often due to the fact that many of their Mother's stay home with the kids as they are young.
Dad's/hubbies go to work and are gone much of the day and have minimal input on the day to day stuff. But when men come home, some are very engaged with their families while others, (MOST) are either tired or just out doing other things.
Women are naturally groomed to raise children and since many/most men act like children in the early years of marriage, wifey tends to have to train hubby too. Basically, if we want some honey from the queen bee that night, we play along or wind up sleeping on the couch.
Anyone else note this general phenomena? LOL
Swez
PS As the family matures, it tends to settle down into well scripted routines and the "balance of power" becomes more or less equal.
I've ran 8's, 10's, and a hefty 12". The 12" presented the lowest f3 in the sealed category, while the 8" was designed with the lowest ported. All produced somewhat similar results; the EQ had to be adjusted in the upper bass register for more flatter results. I thought at one time that it had a lot to do with the rolloff not being low enough, but that does not seem the case. After recent playing around I found that lowering 160 and 200hz has a better effect than the usual 80hz that I played with (I'm currently using a Pioneer HU with an EZ-EQ).
.
After the last enclosure (8's slot ported and tuned to 40hz), it still produced a lot of unwanted harmonics somewhere in the 150-200hz range. 80hz seemingly, has an slightly better effect upon the subs frequency range though it's adds a little muddiness. That isn't so bad for more low end, but isn't so good either. Decreasing this range has degradent effect on the current midbass produced from the front stage. After trying the 160 & 200hz adjustment, the sub seem to be more responsive with better than before low end.
Am I crazy? I really must get a laptop with a RTA soon!
I'm even comtemplating designing a compact low ripple bandpass to see if that will produce better results within the 30-80hz range. I'm projecting that this will help stave off the unwanted midbass, then I won't have to adjust the eq and effect the doors. A simple separate front/rear eq might work, yet I don't really want to add to all the stuff I'm running (HU, 2 amps, {planned} separate x-over, and Kove processor).
Making any sense? What's your input?
Replies (15)
swez on 01/15/2007 09:57:29
Hummm, this is interesting but also a bit perplexing too. It would seem that filtering the subs at 80-100 Hz would knock out upper harmonics well enough unless the LPF is only a -6dB filtering network. (Not likely unless you had only a passive coil filter) The other thought here... the LPF on your sub amp is way off calibration???
Have you tried adjusting the crossover networks to say 60 Hz and see what happens under that scenario? It would be easier to isolate the problem by shutting off the sub and then adjusting your full range speakers to get the best from them. Then bring up the sub level until you find the sweet spot for them as well?
Yes, an RTA would definitely help isolate peaks and dips when using Pink noise as the audio source. This tool would allow you to get as close to flat response as possible for reference purposes. But when listening to various CD's, recording engineers have the last word. No two engineers have the same tastes, tools or skill levels either. That makes this target even harder to nail down.
Comments?
Swez
Ash on 01/15/2007 10:41:52
I have tried all sub combos with the low pass 80hz and under. Right now, it is around 50-60hz on the dial even though I doubt it is dead on accurate.
I found the sweet spot with a very nice midbass blend to where the subs disappeared, yet low end lacked on all subs. Some more than others. I figured a simple solution is to have a higher output low end than midbass on the sub which might work better. Could use a high power sub in a very low Q box (Qtc= .57- .69). Might be too muddy though. One sub thought of is the Dayton Reference HO 10". Uses micro enclosures as well.
Funny thing is US Acoustics uses a 24db slope! You would think that would be enough. That obviously is not the case.
I don't mind sacrificing efficiency for low end for it is to only complement the fronts, but the use of large subs in a large box isn't going to cut it either. The problem will still remain (Dayton 12"). Tried that one in about 1.2 ft^3 with a f3 of 43hz. Good output for a single sub. Low end still was better with 80-100hz adjustment. Tried it in a 1.6 ft^3 sealed.... overbearing!
After doing some modeling on WIN ISD, the 8's seem like they will give good results with a passband between 36-100hz. This and a fairly compact enclosure. Only negative is the -3db down output for the whole pass band compared to vented and sealed. Still might not be as bad as thought. I don't want SPL, I just want low end without clunkiness. That should be a fair tradeoff.
My music tastes are fairly wide (jazz, electronica, bass, r&b, hip hop, & bumper). The difference in music styles and producers ears is well noted with some having better system performance than most. I can live with it.
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 10:50:31
Back when i worked for a company that had an RTA, I did notice that I didn't have to make any adjustments to the 150-250Hz range, it was naturally flat in my SUV (kia sportage) but it is a small SUV. I had peaks and valleys in other places, but the midbass was up to par, backing up Ash's theory of more and not less. I have made alot of changes since then, but I was dealing primarily with the same 5 1/4 comps and 6.5 comps. I always had a bad peak in the 1.2-4.0 kHz range. I wonder how much of it has to do with the speakers.
As far as recording engineers go, I wonder what their target vehicle is for standard. If you use an all factory setup, you can bet your rear that it is going to be over-enhanced in some areas, and will be a nightmare to setup in an aftermarket atmosphere.
I find myself constantly changing the EQ settings in my car. The biggest complaint I have is the dramatic difference of the 12-16kHz range from song to song. Some songs have a well balanced high end, and some are just downright annoying. I can't tell a difference anymore when adjusting the 18-20kHz range. I guess that part of my hearing is gone for good. I remember being able to hear it in highschool when I bought my first 11band EQ.
Ash on 01/15/2007 11:14:39
I'm quite sure they have some exquisite stuff in their rides (cost wise anyways). Probably Bose... LOL!
This seems to be the only explanation for why each sub combo still needs some sort of upper bass eq-ing. An eq is always a good thing, but I feel it is better to design the drivers to play around the natural peaks and dips if possible. Then you can eq to fine tune things a little.
So CP', how did you overcome that problem or is it still there? I wonder how many small suv owners may have come across that problem or even notice it? They probably just thought the subs performance was inferior...
SPL wise I guess it wouldn't matter, as long as they felt the bass.....
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 11:34:19
I have 6 custom eq presets on my HU (alpine CDA-9835) all of them have a compensating dip at 1.6kHz usually -3db with a q factor of 1. I spent a couple of hours adjusting them with preset 1 being heavy on bass and a little heavy on the highs and preset 6 being more evened out. They graduate from heavy to moderate so it is easier to change by preset while I am driving.
The subs do well I think it is more the mids and the cabin gain. My 12's are crossed out at 60, and the sealed 10 is crossed out at 125.
Victor on 01/15/2007 17:07:05
I had a similar problem in an install I did a year back,
Derived a few conclusions
1 - Speaker directly exposed to the listening environment ( unlike rooms a car is a smaller envidonment and varied in terms or absorbtion and reflection and over laping and cancelling of waves, there are bound to be peaks and dips of a higher intensity then the room )
2 - Subs move the highest amount or air, and hence cause the maximum interference to sound emenating from other speakers.
3 - In a sedan the sub is isolated from the direct listening environment, what we listen in the cabin is much different from what it actually sounds in the boot , as much of unwanted resonance, ripples and peaks are filtered out as the sound reaches the listening environment..Along with this what the sedan does is it reduces the bass energy that reaches the cabin and hence it is always easier to achieve a higher spl in a SUV then a sedan.
What i have noticed is that many people pay the least attention to treating the car, the interiors or the listening environment as compared to the time and money they spend in researching about and buying the electronic and sound equipments. One needs to give a higher priority to the listening environment cause its the basic foundation of building a car audio system.
The environment we listen in come foremost even before u install the system.
what i see of your issue is a heavy overlap of 150-200hz waves...
how to deal with this..
1 - reduce resonating objects, material in the interior of the car.
2 - heavily sound dampen the entire car to alter the resonating freq of the sheet metal.
3 - cut off the unwanted frequencies gradually, bit by bits in steps..
for ex.
Set your HU eq low freq cut off's at 80Hz,Amp at 60Hz and the sub tuned around 35Hz it filters out more effectively than using just the HU or the AMP Xovers.
4 - While tweaking, begin with the steepest slopes and highest Q available to avoid marjor overlaps.
5 - This will give u a few voids in some freq range, which can be compensated later on.
Tweak Each speaker in a stand alone mode first. ie. Bass producing speakers, MB producing speakers, MR and Highs producing speakers as individuals that produce the same freq range.
Try Blending bass with highs, mids with highs, mids with bass, mr with mb as pairs. introduce the other freq ranges one by one. You may need to alter the slope and Q a bit for a good blend.
6 - Try isolating the speaker from directly radiating into the listening environment.
One way to do this is what u have already thought about ie. a BP tuned in the region or 30 to 70/80 Hz.. after all its a box in a box, meaning a lot of filteration before the sound reaches you. but one disadvantage here wud be the size of the box. And the use of a very good BP filter to avoid the ripple effect.
The simplest ( though it aint that simple ) form of a BP filter would be a Series or Parallel RLC , which you can design and make yourself after u do the math and find the parts of the values derived from the eqautions given here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit
A Quater wavelength Transmission line cud be another way out but with a similar trade off when it comes to size of the box.
since the mids radiate directly into the listening environment they also need to be handled well.
They are usually rated that they can go down well till 50Hz. well of all those i have heard till now, there are barely any good comps which can go clean and not create unwanted harmonics. I prefer cutting off the comps around 100 to 125Hz to help them play other freq better without making them work on unwanted freq which they anyways are not going to produce well. Again with a steeper slope.
Probably it may not be a peak amplitute wise, but a very distorted freq range that sounds harsh and gives an impression that the bass is not correct.
The comps are saved with a lot of stress , as the same motor and the same radiating surface has to produce a wide range of freq that too in an overlapping format as the music we listen to are not test tones they are a blend of over laps of freqs, its alwyas better to not load them with a freq they are not designed or incapable to handle.
The same theory applies when we use a Subsonic filter on subs..
that is very important too. A SS filter is necessary with a proted enclosure , but i even prefer using one on a sealed enclosure too, to block out freqs below 25Hz.
Enclosing the Mids in a proper sized enclosure is another requirement. As for home audio its possible to give a spec enclosure, but for car audio we are limited to using the door volume as an enclosure. Pods are a very good option and are generally noticed to produce better quality MB response.
This is all I would say for now as a feedback would be required before we could think of another solution. almost all of the SUV's I have done till now, did sound pretty sweet after these things were taken care of.
comments...
Victor..
swez on 01/15/2007 19:38:47
When he speaks.... he says a lot huh?
Actually, I'd have to agree with you on many points based on similar experimentation. The acoustical properties of any given listening area are always a tough battle. (Mobile audio has go to be the biggest nightmare for SQ guys, due to panel vibrations, reflections, cancellation nodes and additive crossover point overlaps)
One thing I have noted... when possible, do all your critical listening and tweaking in the dark. There's just something about shutting off the visual sensories and going strickly on what we hear, that seems to heighten audible acquity. I cannot explain it... but it just works. Use a good flashlight while adjusting, but the darker the work area, the better.
Have also noted that front and rear speakers do sound cleaner at high SPL's when they are rolled off somewhat higher than 60 Hz. Since there is no real enclosure to control the low frequency cones, they are either very stiff and low bass is poor, or the cones are not dampened adequately and get very muddy/sloppy with higher SLP levels. Hard to get a good middle ground here w/o a decent MB driver in a well matched box.
Finally, do all the critical tuning and such at very modest SPL levels. (Say 90-95 dB) That's only a few watts per speaker for most systems. But this is where we can detect the subtle adjustments. Above 100 dB, the brain begins to trigger our ears to go into "protection mode" and we lose acquity rapidly. My guess is that most get numbed out in about 10 minutes and don't even realize how poor the mix is, until we shut it off and come back later to try again. Then we pick up where we left off and wonder is some drunken sailor was in there before???
Swez
cplkittle on 01/15/2007 20:55:30
I agree with everything Victor said, but what is the difference or benifit of spending hours setting crossover points v/s 30 seconds dropping the level with the EQ?
Victor on 01/16/2007 00:12:24
Whats the difference in living with the girl u just married - and living with the girl u married before 5 years.. ??? THINK
Well you just come to know your system better, the way it behaves with sound. hours and hours of listening to your system and tweaking it at each level with minute detail helps smoothen the response to a great extent..
After 5 years you would know ur wife well. Make her talk sweet and train her well so that she doesnt make those harsh sounds. GRIN
Try using music that you are faimliar with , a variety of music would help better. Test tones are vry helpful but provided you ahve an RTA or atleast a caliberated mic and a RTA software. Orelse day to day music you listen would be the best choice, cause everytime you drive you wont be planning to put a 30Hz test tone to give ur girlfriend some orgasmic pleasure....GRINGRINGRIN
Dave... whats this new story about "The Darkness"..?? hehehehe..
dunno why but I have genrally done most tweaking in my system during the nights, probably because i never got good time during the day , need no disturbance too, also during the night there are no external sound interferences as during the day.
Its just too silent , and hence you can hear a lot more detailed sound than u can during the day time due to other ambient noises.
Victor...
cplkittle on 01/16/2007 00:25:14
lol, and I am lucky to have a wife that enjoys my work.
I am having troubles with the training though GRIN
Victor on 01/16/2007 00:44:30
Well, Probably the system is you and your wife the tweaking expert...SMILE...
Ask her if she's ever had trouble training you..?? GRIN
cplkittle on 01/16/2007 04:45:55
I think she has done a pretty good job training me. I sack up the garbage when it is full, put the toilet lid down, rinse off my dishes, make sure my dirty clothes go in the basket, fold up the blanket on the cou.....wait a minute... I think I've been housebroken without realizing it. or maybe even...'gulp'....whipped! Women are evil !!!
Ash on 01/16/2007 06:33:50
A mouthfull said! Plain and simple, to find and correct the nasty culprits an RTA will be a good help. That and a few other items I'm looking to get in a month or so will help.
Even though it's not a fix all, it is an setup aide and should produce quicker results than tinkering & guessing without knowing. I have had so many problems in the blazer trying to get the sound I want it is ridiculous. Buying "bigger and better" drivers may not be the answer as most would reccommend. I believe it will be targeting certain frequencies apparent in this particular environment.
As far as the BP goes, I'm hoping this could be the answer as I have noticed the same as Vic stated. At least in the rear. I have listened to the fronts alone and currently the sub is disconnected. There are a few problems existing that I have some solutions to.
To put you in mind:
There are 4" mids (Audax) in the dash using the amp's x-over (hipass @ 240). That is the highest setting on the amp. With just those and the sub I get a better blend, but it is too much stress on them and that should tell you how much midbass is being produced.
Using the same series 6.5" in the doors for MB only, an MTX x-over has the settings I need to shift the point into 300-400hz. That should eliminate that.
More on that later if you need, gotta head to work!
Victor on 01/16/2007 07:24:12
By the way, most of those Suv's I did had no rear or smaller rear speakers, just good front comps and even a 4"er could do pretty well for the rear fill.
Regarding the BP, you need to be careful as there will be a good lot bump in the passband, and if your car's acoustics amplify that bump even more, your are going to be in a Booooooooooom Car, with unbalanced mids and highs.
Victor....
swez on 01/16/2007 08:47:39
Tuning at night is like you say. Things quiet down and the ambient noise is less of a factor and not as distracting.
Uhmmm... Vic, the culture is very different here in the USA. Girls are taught from a very young age to train a child/man up right. (Well, in thier minds anyway) This is often due to the fact that many of their Mother's stay home with the kids as they are young.
Dad's/hubbies go to work and are gone much of the day and have minimal input on the day to day stuff. But when men come home, some are very engaged with their families while others, (MOST) are either tired or just out doing other things.
Women are naturally groomed to raise children and since many/most men act like children in the early years of marriage, wifey tends to have to train hubby too. Basically, if we want some honey from the queen bee that night, we play along or wind up sleeping on the couch.
Anyone else note this general phenomena? LOL
Swez
PS As the family matures, it tends to settle down into well scripted routines and the "balance of power" becomes more or less equal.
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