Hey everyone, im MO and i just joined now. Very nice forum by the way. I have been into caraudio since the late 90's. I am 25 now and run a used car dealer. I drive a 1999 Ford Crown Victoria. Here is what i have got so far :
Pioneer Premier DEH-780MP
CDT HD62 component set
PPI a600.2
JL 12w6v2 / sealed box
JL 500/1
KnuKonceptz 1/0 split into two 4 gauge outs to the amps above.
Viper 350HV alarm
I left the stock rear speakers in the rear deck and faded the sound to the front so that only the people on the back can hear anything.
Crossovers on HU :
12db @ 80hz LPF
12db @ 80-100hz HPF depends
Crossovers on JL 500/1 set to :
12db @ 80hz
PPI a600.2 does not have any crossovers so we are ok with that.
The Pioneer 780 HU crossover for the LPF can not be set to pass or off.
I have a choice of 18db,12db,6db octave slopes and right now i set it to 12db since i had my 500/1 amp set to 12db aswell.
Whould this mean that i whould be getting 24db slope total ?
Hope this makes sense.
I have the Q on the 500/1 at 1.1 and the bass boost turned off and the input/gain alittle past a quarter of the way up. I will need to go back and set it the right way.
I have the doors dampened with dynamat extreme but need to go back and dampen the door panels with some damplier pro i have left.
Anyways i will check back for your replies. Thanks in advance.
Replies (28)
cplkittle on 12/17/2006 20:15:42
Sounds like a pretty nice setup. As far as the dual LPF settings, they do not add to each other, just make a more accurate filter/slope (what one might miss, the other one catches). Overall, without hearing it, I would say that I would have set it up the same way.
swez on 12/17/2006 22:04:36
Agreed... to get a -24dB slope filter, this requires several caps and coils of very specific values and then coupled to a load matching resistor for proper impedance matching between amp, crossover and sub. You should be fine with a -12dB LPF in a sealed box.
Should be a very nice system in all. However, if the rear speakers are getting full range signals, you may want to consider Bass Blockers, (HPF caps) to block lows if the rear speakers begin to hack out too much.
Do you know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers? (6x8's are common in Fords)
Swez
MO on 12/17/2006 23:51:02
Actually i forgot to mention that i do have a rear HPF and its set to 12db @ 100hz right now. What do you think ? Should i worry about replacing the rears ?
So you guys think i should keep my HU xover slope at 12db and keep my amp on 12db aswell ?
I whould imagine a steeper 18db or 24db octave slope for the LPF whould be good for subs. Usually sounds cleaner and less muddy as a 12db slope.
I have always set my LPF to 18db @ 63-80hz and my HPF to 12db @ 80-100 hz.
This way i whould get a nice gap between the two with a good roll off from the mid to the sub and a flatter freq response.
"Do you know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers?"
No i don't know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers.
I know the front speakers were 6x8's aswell but i replaced them with the CDT HD62 set and mounted the main tweeter close to the mid as possible like CDT recommends.
I was mainly curious about the xover setting for the LPF.
I tried turning off the JL 500/1's xover and just using the HU's but it didnt sound as smooth as when i had it on at 12db octave slope and the HU at 12db.
Tommorow i will set up the gains for the front stage aswell as the sub stage.
I have my EQ set up pretty close to FLAT with the exception of a few bands which are +1 at most or whatever it requires.
swez on 12/18/2006 00:41:50
Rear speakers: If they are doing the job well enough, no need to change them for now. The HPF is good @ 100 Hz., and minimizes large cone excursion issues with that size cone.
Filter slopes are a matter of choice and preferences. Most car audio gear makers stick to the -12dB Butterworth of L/R slopes. They have relatively smooth slopes and are easy to keep lows, mids and highs properly phase aligned.
High slope filters, (18/24db per oct.) are great for protecting expensive and delicate tweeters or removing subsonic/infrasonics from strong sub systems. Other then that, 3rd and 4th order filter networks have their own unique quirks due to phase shifting with each order used.
Muddy subs? Most notable when using LPF setting of higher than about 120 -150 Hz and only -12dB/oct. This is more dependent on the quality of the filter design. JL makes great HP/LP filtering networks. The problem you might be calling out as muddy, has more to due with transfer function and resonance issues from this vehicle. (Cabin Gain Effect)
A quick test is to pull the sub out of the vehicle and listen to it as a stand alone in a large open area. If the muddiness is gone, it not the LPF, it's transfer function peaks in the vehicle that need to be dialed out with EQ. If the sub sounds muddy outside the vehicle too, look at EQ settings, try a narrower "Q" setting and check the box internal dimensions. (A larger sealed box can go low well, but can make the cone go sloppy at high SPL too)
Did I cover everything?
Swez
MO on 12/18/2006 01:16:08
That makes alot of sense actually. JL recommends 1.25 cuft net for a single 12w6v2 and the box im currently using is 1.5 gross cuft and probably around 1.34 net or somthing with close to a pound of polyfill inside. I bet that along with the trunk have somthing to do with that.
I can always switch the slope on my HU crossover to 18db @ 80hz but for now it sounds good at 12db @ 80 on the HU and amp.
Looks like you covered mostly everything.
You think i should consider a new sealed box built to JL specs ?
What 2 way component speaker sets do you recommend. I listen to mostly rap, dance and rock and vocal pieces.
I was just curiuos of upgrading or finding a set with great off axis response.
Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1 possibly or ?
Ash on 12/18/2006 07:38:03
You could try removing some or all of the stuffing and see if that helps any. Stuffing really has it most effects when you are on the larger side of the recommended enclosure. So removing that factor may net you the results you are looking for.
Another alternative is to add more wood or another solid object inside the enclosure to detract from the net volume, essentially a smaller box.
Try these before building another one.
swez on 12/18/2006 12:41:40
Agree with Ash... if the box you have now is sturdy and solid, just add internal blocking materials to shrink the internal airspace the sub is working in. That along with removing some stuffing will help.
NOTE: A common board, (Blocking) of 2" x 6" x 12" will displace about 0.06 cf of airspace. You may have to do a little experimentation to find the best sounding internal range. (0.95 - 1.25 cf)
Also, trunk loaded subs tend to be a bit muddy or peaked as the trunk is sealed off from the cabin. Here, some find making an air/sound vent into the main cabin tends to add more punch to the upper bass performance in large sedans.
As for good 2-way Comps, Alpine, Infinity, JBL, CDT, Diamond, Focal and many other brands can be a great addition to your front & rear sound stages. The rear stage can be coaxial 2-ways with enough efficiency to get good rear fill with a modest 2 channel amp or run off the HU amps. It's more a preference to the listener how much rear fill they prefer or can do without.
Swez
MO on 12/18/2006 15:31:46
I went out to my car and removed the polyfill inside the box and put the 12w6v2 back inside the box and it sounded differant but i did not like the sound. It sounded to dry and sharp and didnt have the softness as before when the bass or drums whould come in. So i ended up putting the polyfill back inside the box and stuffed it in better and overall i prefer this sub with polyfill. It simply softness up some of the lower freq and notes that normally should sound to sharp.
As a matter of fact, i own a JL prowedge box which was made for 2 12w6v2's and when i bought it from my JL dealer it had about a pound of polyfill in each chamber. That is what JL uses in there sealed box's and i now understand why. Just a preferance really but i like the subs with a bit of polyfill :)
Now i have my CDT comps already installed with the mid in the door and the tweeter angle mounted close to the mid near the dash in a crown victoria.
I really don't like how the crown victoria door panels block the midrange which i can tell is ruining the frontstage. They originally were made for 6x8's in that oval shape. The door panel grill looks more like a rectangle and is muffled up with some foam behind the grill.
The more i think about it the more im starting to think i whould be better off with coaxials of quality. Somthing more stealth looking if you know what i mean.
Now the amp i currently have installed is a ppi a600.2 which is one of my favorite amps of all time but it can do 150 rms x 2 @ 4 ohm
I know this is more power then ill ever need but its a nice amp and i know its better to have more power handy then less power.
What do you guys suggest i try next for this approach ?
Ash on 12/18/2006 17:25:41
Are the door speakers situated up high like in the Towncar? Can't remember, but if so, you will never get real good imaging without some kind of time delay adjustment. They are just too close.
If you could somehow relocate them to the kickpanels, then it would be a world of a difference.
I had a 1982 Buick Park Avenue once with similar placed speakers. It was setup very nice, but I always found myself balancing to the passenger side more to get a even output. Then the rears ended up suffering.
Perhaps on the subs you could remove only part of the stuffing until you get the results you want. Since there is a big difference between stuffed and non-stuffed, then between may be the key to your perfection!
MO on 12/18/2006 17:56:20
Thanks man, yeah the door speakers are up high like in the towncar you mentioned. This is a bummer because ive always been use to stock 6.5 speakers down low on the kicks which sounds better to me then up high like my car.
What do you suggest as far as speakers for this car ?
Should i just replace what i have now with some coaxials and go with the stealth appraoce i mentioned ?
Making custom kickpods etc.. will cost me alot of money especially with the installers around the DC / MD / VA areas. Trust me i have looked everywhere.
Ash on 12/18/2006 20:02:24
I wouldn't switch anything for the CDT's. Youv'e already got some nice gear as far as I'm concerned. You just got to figure out a way to maximize it.
Perhaps there is a way to remove some or all of the foam behind the grills to help open up the sound a bit.
Going with coaxials might only make it worse as you will lose the capability of the tweeters being placed elsewhere to help make up for the problem. I had coaxials in the Park Ave and if they were comp sets I believe it could have been much better. The sound just stay right there.
Try aiming the tweets toward the center of the windshield and upwards a bit. Maybe that can help "draw" the stage out a bit.
MO on 12/18/2006 23:58:02
Yeah i will try re aiming the tweeters tommorow. I will keep what i have for now. Thanks for the advice.
What type of music should i listen to when i go to adjust the gain for my component set ?
I have a bass mekanik CD that plays all types of bass and freq / double disc/ reload and alot of other types of music.
cplkittle on 12/19/2006 00:40:47
To properly adjust gain and crossover points for components, I would first use the bass mechanic CD on a medium volume with the subs off to unsure that no heavy bass is coming from the components. Then I would choose at least 2 different types of music (rock, rap, country, jazz, classical) to make sure there is a balance between the front/rear, and the overall mids and highs v/s lows. Listen for any distortion or any noise that does not sound right.
Make sure that if you want to show off, the component gain is low enough that it will not distort when you turn it up. I recommend using the HU sub gain for showing off. Set it to the middle level when balancing, and keep in mind the maximum volume that you get clean sound from the components, and do not exceed that when playing the subs loud.
It is very easy to blow a component set when playing bass at a loud volume. Many times the bass is loud enough that you don't hear the distress coming from the components. Then when you turn it back down, all of a sudden the comps are raspy and popping.
swez on 12/19/2006 02:50:25
Agreed...This may be more of a process of isolating and fine tuning each element in your present setup. The User Manual is complex and has many steps, but it is pretty comprehensive too. If you don't have a copy, register at Pioneer's Home site and you can get a copy for reference and working on fine tuning features for this model:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/vgn/images/portal/cit_11221/310077201DEHP780MPOperationManual.pdf
In a nut shell, we start with the basics and move to the more advanced features as needed. The setup process begins on page 55 of the Owner's Manual.
1. Start with turning off the subs and optimizing the Front and Rear stages for Balance, Fade, EQ and Time alignments. This is best done at very moderate volume levels. (10-15 watts or under 90dB of SPL) The human ear cannot do a very good job at fine tuning and proper EQ level setting at high SPL levels. (Above 95dB SPL)
2. As mentioned, pick several music selections we know very well. That might include Jazz, Easy Listening, Soft Rock, Country or even some ambient New Age cuts that are rich in Male/female vocals, complex and simple instrumentation, percussions and other delicate musical cuts.
A. Time alignments, (Page 57) show how to set this feature. Using string and masking tape works well for most guys for accurate time align settings. Your reference point is the driver's head rest and each axis point is FL, FR, RR & LR speaker locations.
B. HPF/LPF settings: You seem to understand this feature well already. I would suggest concentrating on the HPF setting for your "Front Stage Components" using 63 and 80 Hz., settings. The one that sounds best to your ears, determines the one used.
The Rear Stage HPF might sound best with 80 or 100 Hz., settings. Some prefer only midbass from the rear channels, while other like full range. (Pick one)
C. Deactivate the Loudness contour setting functions if possible. Minimal LC or none at all, is best with this HU.
D. Custom EQ is best used to cut frequencies that dominate bands where our hearing is most sensitive. (125 - 2,000 Hz. range) We hear this range best. (-6dB to flat) The frequencies above and below that range can be boosted a few dB (0dB to +6dB is plenty) to compensate for vehicle acoustics and hearing compensation.
E. The preset EQ curves are helpful for on the fly EQ adjustments as we switch songs and music source player features. In the Premier line, many like the "Powerful" setting for Rock and other high energy music. "Natural" may be a good option for other music types. (Feel free to experiment as needed)
F. BBE,Compression & BMX Functions: These are neat circuits that offer a wide range of customized Dynamic Range control of our sound source players. Experiment with them and see if you like the effects they produce. In most cases, minimal use of any of these features is often the best place to start.
When you get these to your liking, then it's time to bring up the Bass Engine features. (Adding the sub woofer to your Mid/High mixing) JL amps have a dash remote device that is nice for on the fly adjustments. Here, you can add or subtract bass SPL as needed to blend everything together. This is also a good "Panic Button" tool to mute bass fast when desired. (Prevent Noise tickets if you are observent)
OK, this is a long reply, but it is also comprehensive. Digest it, play with the controls and see what sounds best as you tweak. If you need more help, just ask.
Swez
MO on 12/19/2006 12:42:38
OK i have my front stage set up how i like it and now time to adjust the 500/1 amp gain to the 12w6v2 for good blend of bass.
I know there is a proper way to do this in the 500/1 owners manual.
I dont have a DMM right now and whould have to adjust this gain / input sensitivity by ear.
I whould imagine the gain should be kept less then half way if its a 5 volt preout HU.
Just assuming but not set in stone.
Whats my best bet for now ?
swez on 12/19/2006 16:48:07
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Here is a tweaking process for getting the most from your subs and amp. Additional boom from the sub(s) is/are our main goal here, so will focus mainly upon that. Here we go:
Get out a few of your favorite CD's. Something with good mix and some low thump content. Dial back on the sub amp gain so there is very little sub in the mix. Turn off any bass boost features in the amp for now. May need a little later, but for now, no bass boost for now. Let's get to work 'cause BABY, it's cold outside!
1. Set the EQ functions on HU to "0" or "flat" (no cuts, no boost)
2. Pop in the CD/tape/MP3 and select your favorite cut(s) and repeat
3. Turn up the HU volume knob until you hear some distortions from the interior stage speakers. (~80% of max on aftermarket HU's)
4. Back off on the volume until distortions are gone. Is best to get out of the car and listen with doors open from a few feet away. If you still hear a rough sound, back off on the volume a bit more.
5. Now, time to add the sub into the mix. If amp has a Low Pass filter, set it in a range between 70-120 Hz. (*0 Hz., is typ.) No bass boost just yet. If you have continously variable LPF, determine what sounds best in your ears, within the range noted
6. Bring up the gain on the sub amp, until you get it thumping and hear a "little" distortion
7. Back off on the sub gain (a wee bit) until it sound full, deep and clean
8. If bass seems a bit lacking of punch or deep lows, a small amount of Bass Boost, can be added. (+3 to +6dB is all you should ever need here)
9. Again, if you hear the sub getting rough from distortion, back off on the gain a bit more
10. Now, you may use the Bass Tone control on the HU to adjust your bass from the driver's seat. This works well in simple HU's. But if you have a menu driven EQ system, this is a bit more cumbersome.
That's about it and now time for a test drive to ensure you have the system well balanced and in control. However, if you still have poor bass performance or weak bass output, try reverse the wires to the sub and see if that improves the overall affect. If it gets better, you're good to go. If it seems worse, return the sub wires to original orientation.
That's the scoop MO,
Swez
MO on 12/19/2006 18:50:37
Yeah i went ahead and picked up a DMM from the store and went to my car did it according to JL.
The # i was loooking for was 31.6 Volts on the DMM in AC mode.
I turned up the volume close to 75% of the way up and went to the back and turned up the gain until it read about 31.6. The gain is def only a quarter of the way up only.
It blends in really well with the EQ set to flat but on certain tracks it could def use some EQ in the 50hz band. I usually prefer to keep the bass boost on the amp to off and just use my EQ band on the HU.
Now i set my ppi a600.2 / 2 channel amp by ear.
It does 150 x 2 @ 4 ohm stereo to my components which are a 4 ohm set / CDT HD62
How could i correctly set the gain on the ppi amp using the DMM ?
swez on 12/19/2006 23:25:25
To use your DMM for that PPI amp, your target voltage will be 24.5 volts off the amp speaker lugs, with the speakers connected. (150 watts RMS per channel)
You may find this a bit more difficult to get an accurate reading due to the crossovers on your Comp set. If the display does not read close to that number, you'll have to tune by ear.
Tech Tip:
When dialing in full range speakers, it's best to open the doors and step behind the vehicle, (Say 15-20 feet) and listen. If you hear shrill highs and muddy lows, the amp is clipping too much.
Got all that?
Swez
MO on 12/20/2006 01:20:13
As much as ive learned in car audio i always like to answer questions to hear out others advice. Thanks Swez and i will try doing this tommorow morning somtime.
swez on 12/20/2006 23:08:13
Good, hope that helps... but don't be shocked if the DMM reads some odd numbers as you go.
JL has internal load circuits that allow one to adjust gain properly w/o speaker loads. Most amps do not have this feature and we often have to resort to tuning by ear.
Good luck and let us know how ya make out,
Swez
MO on 12/21/2006 16:25:39
Ok, i tried setting the gains with the DMM to the ppi a600.2 but it didnt work out like you were mentioning above.
I set the gain by ear and it seems like i didnt have to move the gain much at all. The gain is just about all the way to the minumum and it sounds loud and clean.
I set the volume of my 780 unit to 3/4 of the way up which is about 40-45 volume out of 65 or so and the gain didnt like going much higher. Anyways thats the best i could do by ear.
On some songs i notice that a 18db slope on the HU provides a better rolloff to the sub from the comps which are at 12db slope. Usually sounds better with -18db slope on rock and drums and such. Overall i change it to hear the differance on the HU from -12 to 18db slopes.
THe amp is set at -12db
swez on 12/21/2006 23:05:03
Am wondering if non-JL amps can be calibrated with AC voltage testing w/o the speakers connected to the outputs too?
Since most amps have some kind of internal protect circuits against shorts and ultra-low ohmics, I gotta believe they have internal load resistors when no speakers are connected to the outputs???
If you wish to try this, do it at very low power initially. (maybe 10 watts)
At 10 watts, here's the voltage readings I would expect to see:
2 ohms @ 10 watts = 1.4 VAC
4 ohms @ 10 watts = 6.3 VAC
Do this at your own risk, but I believe you'll get a better reading than with the speakers connected to the amp and probing.
GO EASY ON THIS TEST UNTIL YOU SENSE HOW THE AMP REACTS. Or just tune by ear.
Swez
MO on 12/24/2006 20:39:51
Well after playing with my tweeter location on my CDT HD62 set, i decided to place the main tweeter close as possible to the mid.
I used the angle mount that came with the set which was a plus and mounted the main tweeter right above the mid and angled them at the listeners in a criss cross pattern.
Once i mounted them i turned on and played all types of vocal music along with rap and rock and i have never been happier with a component set. This is probably the best component set that i have ever owned or heard.Very Smooth and Accurate. Almost every music is coming from the eye level and in front of my windshield, wide. Sometimes, it feels like a surround sound. The drum is far right, trumpet far left, and vocal near the middle.
Once you go SQ, you can't go back to SPL.
Patiance is definetly the key with a component set. Once you get it right its all worth while.
I set my crossovers like this :
Sub LPF : -18db @ 80hz
Subs I tend to cross over more steeply, and use midbass or mids to roll off to the subs. Great Blend
Comps HPF : -12db @ 100hz / Sounds Fantastic this way with 150 watts rms to both sides.
swez on 12/24/2006 21:04:54
Yep, the HD series from CDT is hard to beat. The Classics are a bit less cost and some sonics are not as clean as the HU series, but still of high quality, when intalled with great care. (Placements of drivers and good baffling for the MB driver are key)
Some like the "A" pillar mounting method that brings the highs up to cross the windshield with tweeters. This can sound very interesting and offers very good stereo imaging too. Since the windshield is a hard, curved surface, it can give some very sweet dispersion patterns to a dome tweeter.
Quote: "Once you go SQ, you can't go back to SPL."
You don't say?
SQ/SQL converts seem to be more a target for guys who have matured and don't feel the need to blast themselves and others into oblivion. Hehe... we have a new convert fellas! He's hooked and will never go back to a boom box on wheels. GRIN
Nice work MO and thanks for sharing your insights here at CK,
Swez
MO on 12/25/2006 00:47:56
Well with the CDT HD62 set i mounted the tweeter close because Soft domes with extended range(my tweeter) and hard dome tweeters work very well and usually best when mounted close to the driver. CDT recommended it aswell and it made all the differance once i placed the tweeter closer to the mid with the tweeter angled to the listeners in the criss cross fashion.
The problem with mounting the tweeter up high in sound quality applications is the fact that the tweeter's timing is out of phase with the woofers, making the higher frequencies reach your ears first.
As far as A-pillars, while good for added high frequency clarity, frequencies that require blending the tweeter and woofer (such as the typical female voice) will be off because the tweeter is heard faster than the woofer, making the soundstage less than perfect. Actually, competition winning vehicles usually use the component tweeter as close to the woofer as possible. This provides a centered soundstage with good blending of the drivers. Then, they may add additional tweeters up high and attenuate them just to raise the soundstage and give a bit more side to side definition. The reason "Professional" installations don't put them in places other than the A pillar is because most of them use factory door locations and use A pillars so they don't have to totally gash the interior to mount the tweeters, that and they don't often make kick panels
swez on 12/25/2006 12:03:02
I agree with you about using a planar approach between the woofers, mids and tweeters. As you say, for accurate SQ, having all coils in the same vertical plane axis, we get the best phase aligments from all frequencies. The key is often to use wide dispersion pattern tweeters and aim them upward as you have mentioned.
Have you had a chance to look at CDT's site about the ambient tweeter apps they have developed? They use a 2nd pair of tweeters and attenuators to bounce highs off the windshield. This in affect, raises the high frequency end audio stage upward toward the listener's ears.
Take a look if you wish to learn a bit about this application:
http://www.cdtaudio.com/cdt10lp.htm
As you say, it's more about the location of the factory speakers. Mid door mountings, seem to be a better option than most low door designs. It's not for everyone, but after trying this method in an older Chevy Blazer, I noted a definite improvement in front stage highs.
BTW, this is not a debate per-se. Others are probably tracking this post with interest too. Am just tossing this idea out for the masses to consider as "one option" to improve poor staging presents with typical stock locations.
In your case, it seems you have everything well in hand and very happy with the results. That's all that counts. ;-)
Swez
Ash on 12/25/2006 12:37:25
This is a good post. Your right Swez, I hope others are learning from this and can try to apply it as well.
One more thing you can do to the "ambient tweeters" mounted in the A-pillars is cross them over higher.
When using silks down low around the mid, another smaller tweeter set up high and crossed over around 6k will work good. The high setting will stop from drawing too much of the main source material away and add good ambience. These can be ran of HU power as well.
For example:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-025
Between the low power (maybe a resistor or two) and high x-over setting, staging can be improved without the mains being overtaken by them.
MO on 12/25/2006 15:34:56
It's important to note that car audio components aren't really standout performers to begin with. Most don't perform worth half or even 1/4 their cost.
Competition is primarily based upon who is and isn't sponsored. If you really want to know what the good drivers are, look at who chose them and paid for them because of their performance, not what they were given by a manufacturer. Past that, install and tuning account for far more than equipment, people have won competitions with factory systems before. The good thing about a car is that it's such a terrible acoustic environment that a car's inherent issues are far worse than the differences you'll have with drivers of different quality levels. Most that consistently place well with sponsored systems tend to use "prototype" drivers, which are usually home audio drivers shoved beneath a grill so that you can't make out what it really is. Biggs and Eldridge are an example.
The best midbass drivers you could hope for will have their roots on a home audio midbass driver that you can pick up for a cool $100-200 each. Among the better performers are SEAS Excels, Peerless Exclusives, Scanspeak Revelators, Vifa XG/XT offerings, some of the Eton and Accuton offerings are notable as well. Even some of the standard offerings of all those manufacturers are better than most of the industry's offerings.
Dyn, Morel, and DLS are losing ground in the market because their competitors are quickly walking past them. The main reason Dynaudio and Focal withdrew from the DIY market is because they neglected their competition and people began to realize that they weren't worth half what they cost. Dyn, DLS, and Morel are all based on the same technologies and consequently all are becoming rapidly outdated as they haven't put a lot of effort into improving upon anything since Scaaning developed these technologies for Dyn in the 1980s. The most recent notable improvement was when Dyn licensed some Scanspeak technology by adding copper to the motor, and the others being some of their tweeter technologies. None are really stellar performers anymore, even the Dayton Reference drivers can outperform them while being available from Parts Express for a cool ~$30 each. I love my Dyns, but as time moves on you really start to realize their drawbacks in comparison to other offerings available, it's more on par with today's mid-fi than "high end" anymore. Morel and DLS are even worse examples.
The good thing is that even with their drawbacks, the above mentioned drivers still outperform 99% of stuff in the car audio world, which can arguably make them a good value.
Pioneer Premier DEH-780MP
CDT HD62 component set
PPI a600.2
JL 12w6v2 / sealed box
JL 500/1
KnuKonceptz 1/0 split into two 4 gauge outs to the amps above.
Viper 350HV alarm
I left the stock rear speakers in the rear deck and faded the sound to the front so that only the people on the back can hear anything.
Crossovers on HU :
12db @ 80hz LPF
12db @ 80-100hz HPF depends
Crossovers on JL 500/1 set to :
12db @ 80hz
PPI a600.2 does not have any crossovers so we are ok with that.
The Pioneer 780 HU crossover for the LPF can not be set to pass or off.
I have a choice of 18db,12db,6db octave slopes and right now i set it to 12db since i had my 500/1 amp set to 12db aswell.
Whould this mean that i whould be getting 24db slope total ?
Hope this makes sense.
I have the Q on the 500/1 at 1.1 and the bass boost turned off and the input/gain alittle past a quarter of the way up. I will need to go back and set it the right way.
I have the doors dampened with dynamat extreme but need to go back and dampen the door panels with some damplier pro i have left.
Anyways i will check back for your replies. Thanks in advance.
Replies (28)
cplkittle on 12/17/2006 20:15:42
Sounds like a pretty nice setup. As far as the dual LPF settings, they do not add to each other, just make a more accurate filter/slope (what one might miss, the other one catches). Overall, without hearing it, I would say that I would have set it up the same way.
swez on 12/17/2006 22:04:36
Agreed... to get a -24dB slope filter, this requires several caps and coils of very specific values and then coupled to a load matching resistor for proper impedance matching between amp, crossover and sub. You should be fine with a -12dB LPF in a sealed box.
Should be a very nice system in all. However, if the rear speakers are getting full range signals, you may want to consider Bass Blockers, (HPF caps) to block lows if the rear speakers begin to hack out too much.
Do you know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers? (6x8's are common in Fords)
Swez
MO on 12/17/2006 23:51:02
Actually i forgot to mention that i do have a rear HPF and its set to 12db @ 100hz right now. What do you think ? Should i worry about replacing the rears ?
So you guys think i should keep my HU xover slope at 12db and keep my amp on 12db aswell ?
I whould imagine a steeper 18db or 24db octave slope for the LPF whould be good for subs. Usually sounds cleaner and less muddy as a 12db slope.
I have always set my LPF to 18db @ 63-80hz and my HPF to 12db @ 80-100 hz.
This way i whould get a nice gap between the two with a good roll off from the mid to the sub and a flatter freq response.
"Do you know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers?"
No i don't know the ohmic value and format size of the stock factory rear speakers.
I know the front speakers were 6x8's aswell but i replaced them with the CDT HD62 set and mounted the main tweeter close to the mid as possible like CDT recommends.
I was mainly curious about the xover setting for the LPF.
I tried turning off the JL 500/1's xover and just using the HU's but it didnt sound as smooth as when i had it on at 12db octave slope and the HU at 12db.
Tommorow i will set up the gains for the front stage aswell as the sub stage.
I have my EQ set up pretty close to FLAT with the exception of a few bands which are +1 at most or whatever it requires.
swez on 12/18/2006 00:41:50
Rear speakers: If they are doing the job well enough, no need to change them for now. The HPF is good @ 100 Hz., and minimizes large cone excursion issues with that size cone.
Filter slopes are a matter of choice and preferences. Most car audio gear makers stick to the -12dB Butterworth of L/R slopes. They have relatively smooth slopes and are easy to keep lows, mids and highs properly phase aligned.
High slope filters, (18/24db per oct.) are great for protecting expensive and delicate tweeters or removing subsonic/infrasonics from strong sub systems. Other then that, 3rd and 4th order filter networks have their own unique quirks due to phase shifting with each order used.
Muddy subs? Most notable when using LPF setting of higher than about 120 -150 Hz and only -12dB/oct. This is more dependent on the quality of the filter design. JL makes great HP/LP filtering networks. The problem you might be calling out as muddy, has more to due with transfer function and resonance issues from this vehicle. (Cabin Gain Effect)
A quick test is to pull the sub out of the vehicle and listen to it as a stand alone in a large open area. If the muddiness is gone, it not the LPF, it's transfer function peaks in the vehicle that need to be dialed out with EQ. If the sub sounds muddy outside the vehicle too, look at EQ settings, try a narrower "Q" setting and check the box internal dimensions. (A larger sealed box can go low well, but can make the cone go sloppy at high SPL too)
Did I cover everything?
Swez
MO on 12/18/2006 01:16:08
That makes alot of sense actually. JL recommends 1.25 cuft net for a single 12w6v2 and the box im currently using is 1.5 gross cuft and probably around 1.34 net or somthing with close to a pound of polyfill inside. I bet that along with the trunk have somthing to do with that.
I can always switch the slope on my HU crossover to 18db @ 80hz but for now it sounds good at 12db @ 80 on the HU and amp.
Looks like you covered mostly everything.
You think i should consider a new sealed box built to JL specs ?
What 2 way component speaker sets do you recommend. I listen to mostly rap, dance and rock and vocal pieces.
I was just curiuos of upgrading or finding a set with great off axis response.
Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1 possibly or ?
Ash on 12/18/2006 07:38:03
You could try removing some or all of the stuffing and see if that helps any. Stuffing really has it most effects when you are on the larger side of the recommended enclosure. So removing that factor may net you the results you are looking for.
Another alternative is to add more wood or another solid object inside the enclosure to detract from the net volume, essentially a smaller box.
Try these before building another one.
swez on 12/18/2006 12:41:40
Agree with Ash... if the box you have now is sturdy and solid, just add internal blocking materials to shrink the internal airspace the sub is working in. That along with removing some stuffing will help.
NOTE: A common board, (Blocking) of 2" x 6" x 12" will displace about 0.06 cf of airspace. You may have to do a little experimentation to find the best sounding internal range. (0.95 - 1.25 cf)
Also, trunk loaded subs tend to be a bit muddy or peaked as the trunk is sealed off from the cabin. Here, some find making an air/sound vent into the main cabin tends to add more punch to the upper bass performance in large sedans.
As for good 2-way Comps, Alpine, Infinity, JBL, CDT, Diamond, Focal and many other brands can be a great addition to your front & rear sound stages. The rear stage can be coaxial 2-ways with enough efficiency to get good rear fill with a modest 2 channel amp or run off the HU amps. It's more a preference to the listener how much rear fill they prefer or can do without.
Swez
MO on 12/18/2006 15:31:46
I went out to my car and removed the polyfill inside the box and put the 12w6v2 back inside the box and it sounded differant but i did not like the sound. It sounded to dry and sharp and didnt have the softness as before when the bass or drums whould come in. So i ended up putting the polyfill back inside the box and stuffed it in better and overall i prefer this sub with polyfill. It simply softness up some of the lower freq and notes that normally should sound to sharp.
As a matter of fact, i own a JL prowedge box which was made for 2 12w6v2's and when i bought it from my JL dealer it had about a pound of polyfill in each chamber. That is what JL uses in there sealed box's and i now understand why. Just a preferance really but i like the subs with a bit of polyfill :)
Now i have my CDT comps already installed with the mid in the door and the tweeter angle mounted close to the mid near the dash in a crown victoria.
I really don't like how the crown victoria door panels block the midrange which i can tell is ruining the frontstage. They originally were made for 6x8's in that oval shape. The door panel grill looks more like a rectangle and is muffled up with some foam behind the grill.
The more i think about it the more im starting to think i whould be better off with coaxials of quality. Somthing more stealth looking if you know what i mean.
Now the amp i currently have installed is a ppi a600.2 which is one of my favorite amps of all time but it can do 150 rms x 2 @ 4 ohm
I know this is more power then ill ever need but its a nice amp and i know its better to have more power handy then less power.
What do you guys suggest i try next for this approach ?
Ash on 12/18/2006 17:25:41
Are the door speakers situated up high like in the Towncar? Can't remember, but if so, you will never get real good imaging without some kind of time delay adjustment. They are just too close.
If you could somehow relocate them to the kickpanels, then it would be a world of a difference.
I had a 1982 Buick Park Avenue once with similar placed speakers. It was setup very nice, but I always found myself balancing to the passenger side more to get a even output. Then the rears ended up suffering.
Perhaps on the subs you could remove only part of the stuffing until you get the results you want. Since there is a big difference between stuffed and non-stuffed, then between may be the key to your perfection!
MO on 12/18/2006 17:56:20
Thanks man, yeah the door speakers are up high like in the towncar you mentioned. This is a bummer because ive always been use to stock 6.5 speakers down low on the kicks which sounds better to me then up high like my car.
What do you suggest as far as speakers for this car ?
Should i just replace what i have now with some coaxials and go with the stealth appraoce i mentioned ?
Making custom kickpods etc.. will cost me alot of money especially with the installers around the DC / MD / VA areas. Trust me i have looked everywhere.
Ash on 12/18/2006 20:02:24
I wouldn't switch anything for the CDT's. Youv'e already got some nice gear as far as I'm concerned. You just got to figure out a way to maximize it.
Perhaps there is a way to remove some or all of the foam behind the grills to help open up the sound a bit.
Going with coaxials might only make it worse as you will lose the capability of the tweeters being placed elsewhere to help make up for the problem. I had coaxials in the Park Ave and if they were comp sets I believe it could have been much better. The sound just stay right there.
Try aiming the tweets toward the center of the windshield and upwards a bit. Maybe that can help "draw" the stage out a bit.
MO on 12/18/2006 23:58:02
Yeah i will try re aiming the tweeters tommorow. I will keep what i have for now. Thanks for the advice.
What type of music should i listen to when i go to adjust the gain for my component set ?
I have a bass mekanik CD that plays all types of bass and freq / double disc/ reload and alot of other types of music.
cplkittle on 12/19/2006 00:40:47
To properly adjust gain and crossover points for components, I would first use the bass mechanic CD on a medium volume with the subs off to unsure that no heavy bass is coming from the components. Then I would choose at least 2 different types of music (rock, rap, country, jazz, classical) to make sure there is a balance between the front/rear, and the overall mids and highs v/s lows. Listen for any distortion or any noise that does not sound right.
Make sure that if you want to show off, the component gain is low enough that it will not distort when you turn it up. I recommend using the HU sub gain for showing off. Set it to the middle level when balancing, and keep in mind the maximum volume that you get clean sound from the components, and do not exceed that when playing the subs loud.
It is very easy to blow a component set when playing bass at a loud volume. Many times the bass is loud enough that you don't hear the distress coming from the components. Then when you turn it back down, all of a sudden the comps are raspy and popping.
swez on 12/19/2006 02:50:25
Agreed...This may be more of a process of isolating and fine tuning each element in your present setup. The User Manual is complex and has many steps, but it is pretty comprehensive too. If you don't have a copy, register at Pioneer's Home site and you can get a copy for reference and working on fine tuning features for this model:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/vgn/images/portal/cit_11221/310077201DEHP780MPOperationManual.pdf
In a nut shell, we start with the basics and move to the more advanced features as needed. The setup process begins on page 55 of the Owner's Manual.
1. Start with turning off the subs and optimizing the Front and Rear stages for Balance, Fade, EQ and Time alignments. This is best done at very moderate volume levels. (10-15 watts or under 90dB of SPL) The human ear cannot do a very good job at fine tuning and proper EQ level setting at high SPL levels. (Above 95dB SPL)
2. As mentioned, pick several music selections we know very well. That might include Jazz, Easy Listening, Soft Rock, Country or even some ambient New Age cuts that are rich in Male/female vocals, complex and simple instrumentation, percussions and other delicate musical cuts.
A. Time alignments, (Page 57) show how to set this feature. Using string and masking tape works well for most guys for accurate time align settings. Your reference point is the driver's head rest and each axis point is FL, FR, RR & LR speaker locations.
B. HPF/LPF settings: You seem to understand this feature well already. I would suggest concentrating on the HPF setting for your "Front Stage Components" using 63 and 80 Hz., settings. The one that sounds best to your ears, determines the one used.
The Rear Stage HPF might sound best with 80 or 100 Hz., settings. Some prefer only midbass from the rear channels, while other like full range. (Pick one)
C. Deactivate the Loudness contour setting functions if possible. Minimal LC or none at all, is best with this HU.
D. Custom EQ is best used to cut frequencies that dominate bands where our hearing is most sensitive. (125 - 2,000 Hz. range) We hear this range best. (-6dB to flat) The frequencies above and below that range can be boosted a few dB (0dB to +6dB is plenty) to compensate for vehicle acoustics and hearing compensation.
E. The preset EQ curves are helpful for on the fly EQ adjustments as we switch songs and music source player features. In the Premier line, many like the "Powerful" setting for Rock and other high energy music. "Natural" may be a good option for other music types. (Feel free to experiment as needed)
F. BBE,Compression & BMX Functions: These are neat circuits that offer a wide range of customized Dynamic Range control of our sound source players. Experiment with them and see if you like the effects they produce. In most cases, minimal use of any of these features is often the best place to start.
When you get these to your liking, then it's time to bring up the Bass Engine features. (Adding the sub woofer to your Mid/High mixing) JL amps have a dash remote device that is nice for on the fly adjustments. Here, you can add or subtract bass SPL as needed to blend everything together. This is also a good "Panic Button" tool to mute bass fast when desired. (Prevent Noise tickets if you are observent)
OK, this is a long reply, but it is also comprehensive. Digest it, play with the controls and see what sounds best as you tweak. If you need more help, just ask.
Swez
MO on 12/19/2006 12:42:38
OK i have my front stage set up how i like it and now time to adjust the 500/1 amp gain to the 12w6v2 for good blend of bass.
I know there is a proper way to do this in the 500/1 owners manual.
I dont have a DMM right now and whould have to adjust this gain / input sensitivity by ear.
I whould imagine the gain should be kept less then half way if its a 5 volt preout HU.
Just assuming but not set in stone.
Whats my best bet for now ?
swez on 12/19/2006 16:48:07
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
Here is a tweaking process for getting the most from your subs and amp. Additional boom from the sub(s) is/are our main goal here, so will focus mainly upon that. Here we go:
Get out a few of your favorite CD's. Something with good mix and some low thump content. Dial back on the sub amp gain so there is very little sub in the mix. Turn off any bass boost features in the amp for now. May need a little later, but for now, no bass boost for now. Let's get to work 'cause BABY, it's cold outside!
1. Set the EQ functions on HU to "0" or "flat" (no cuts, no boost)
2. Pop in the CD/tape/MP3 and select your favorite cut(s) and repeat
3. Turn up the HU volume knob until you hear some distortions from the interior stage speakers. (~80% of max on aftermarket HU's)
4. Back off on the volume until distortions are gone. Is best to get out of the car and listen with doors open from a few feet away. If you still hear a rough sound, back off on the volume a bit more.
5. Now, time to add the sub into the mix. If amp has a Low Pass filter, set it in a range between 70-120 Hz. (*0 Hz., is typ.) No bass boost just yet. If you have continously variable LPF, determine what sounds best in your ears, within the range noted
6. Bring up the gain on the sub amp, until you get it thumping and hear a "little" distortion
7. Back off on the sub gain (a wee bit) until it sound full, deep and clean
8. If bass seems a bit lacking of punch or deep lows, a small amount of Bass Boost, can be added. (+3 to +6dB is all you should ever need here)
9. Again, if you hear the sub getting rough from distortion, back off on the gain a bit more
10. Now, you may use the Bass Tone control on the HU to adjust your bass from the driver's seat. This works well in simple HU's. But if you have a menu driven EQ system, this is a bit more cumbersome.
That's about it and now time for a test drive to ensure you have the system well balanced and in control. However, if you still have poor bass performance or weak bass output, try reverse the wires to the sub and see if that improves the overall affect. If it gets better, you're good to go. If it seems worse, return the sub wires to original orientation.
That's the scoop MO,
Swez
MO on 12/19/2006 18:50:37
Yeah i went ahead and picked up a DMM from the store and went to my car did it according to JL.
The # i was loooking for was 31.6 Volts on the DMM in AC mode.
I turned up the volume close to 75% of the way up and went to the back and turned up the gain until it read about 31.6. The gain is def only a quarter of the way up only.
It blends in really well with the EQ set to flat but on certain tracks it could def use some EQ in the 50hz band. I usually prefer to keep the bass boost on the amp to off and just use my EQ band on the HU.
Now i set my ppi a600.2 / 2 channel amp by ear.
It does 150 x 2 @ 4 ohm stereo to my components which are a 4 ohm set / CDT HD62
How could i correctly set the gain on the ppi amp using the DMM ?
swez on 12/19/2006 23:25:25
To use your DMM for that PPI amp, your target voltage will be 24.5 volts off the amp speaker lugs, with the speakers connected. (150 watts RMS per channel)
You may find this a bit more difficult to get an accurate reading due to the crossovers on your Comp set. If the display does not read close to that number, you'll have to tune by ear.
Tech Tip:
When dialing in full range speakers, it's best to open the doors and step behind the vehicle, (Say 15-20 feet) and listen. If you hear shrill highs and muddy lows, the amp is clipping too much.
Got all that?
Swez
MO on 12/20/2006 01:20:13
As much as ive learned in car audio i always like to answer questions to hear out others advice. Thanks Swez and i will try doing this tommorow morning somtime.
swez on 12/20/2006 23:08:13
Good, hope that helps... but don't be shocked if the DMM reads some odd numbers as you go.
JL has internal load circuits that allow one to adjust gain properly w/o speaker loads. Most amps do not have this feature and we often have to resort to tuning by ear.
Good luck and let us know how ya make out,
Swez
MO on 12/21/2006 16:25:39
Ok, i tried setting the gains with the DMM to the ppi a600.2 but it didnt work out like you were mentioning above.
I set the gain by ear and it seems like i didnt have to move the gain much at all. The gain is just about all the way to the minumum and it sounds loud and clean.
I set the volume of my 780 unit to 3/4 of the way up which is about 40-45 volume out of 65 or so and the gain didnt like going much higher. Anyways thats the best i could do by ear.
On some songs i notice that a 18db slope on the HU provides a better rolloff to the sub from the comps which are at 12db slope. Usually sounds better with -18db slope on rock and drums and such. Overall i change it to hear the differance on the HU from -12 to 18db slopes.
THe amp is set at -12db
swez on 12/21/2006 23:05:03
Am wondering if non-JL amps can be calibrated with AC voltage testing w/o the speakers connected to the outputs too?
Since most amps have some kind of internal protect circuits against shorts and ultra-low ohmics, I gotta believe they have internal load resistors when no speakers are connected to the outputs???
If you wish to try this, do it at very low power initially. (maybe 10 watts)
At 10 watts, here's the voltage readings I would expect to see:
2 ohms @ 10 watts = 1.4 VAC
4 ohms @ 10 watts = 6.3 VAC
Do this at your own risk, but I believe you'll get a better reading than with the speakers connected to the amp and probing.
GO EASY ON THIS TEST UNTIL YOU SENSE HOW THE AMP REACTS. Or just tune by ear.
Swez
MO on 12/24/2006 20:39:51
Well after playing with my tweeter location on my CDT HD62 set, i decided to place the main tweeter close as possible to the mid.
I used the angle mount that came with the set which was a plus and mounted the main tweeter right above the mid and angled them at the listeners in a criss cross pattern.
Once i mounted them i turned on and played all types of vocal music along with rap and rock and i have never been happier with a component set. This is probably the best component set that i have ever owned or heard.Very Smooth and Accurate. Almost every music is coming from the eye level and in front of my windshield, wide. Sometimes, it feels like a surround sound. The drum is far right, trumpet far left, and vocal near the middle.
Once you go SQ, you can't go back to SPL.
Patiance is definetly the key with a component set. Once you get it right its all worth while.
I set my crossovers like this :
Sub LPF : -18db @ 80hz
Subs I tend to cross over more steeply, and use midbass or mids to roll off to the subs. Great Blend
Comps HPF : -12db @ 100hz / Sounds Fantastic this way with 150 watts rms to both sides.
swez on 12/24/2006 21:04:54
Yep, the HD series from CDT is hard to beat. The Classics are a bit less cost and some sonics are not as clean as the HU series, but still of high quality, when intalled with great care. (Placements of drivers and good baffling for the MB driver are key)
Some like the "A" pillar mounting method that brings the highs up to cross the windshield with tweeters. This can sound very interesting and offers very good stereo imaging too. Since the windshield is a hard, curved surface, it can give some very sweet dispersion patterns to a dome tweeter.
Quote: "Once you go SQ, you can't go back to SPL."
You don't say?
SQ/SQL converts seem to be more a target for guys who have matured and don't feel the need to blast themselves and others into oblivion. Hehe... we have a new convert fellas! He's hooked and will never go back to a boom box on wheels. GRIN
Nice work MO and thanks for sharing your insights here at CK,
Swez
MO on 12/25/2006 00:47:56
Well with the CDT HD62 set i mounted the tweeter close because Soft domes with extended range(my tweeter) and hard dome tweeters work very well and usually best when mounted close to the driver. CDT recommended it aswell and it made all the differance once i placed the tweeter closer to the mid with the tweeter angled to the listeners in the criss cross fashion.
The problem with mounting the tweeter up high in sound quality applications is the fact that the tweeter's timing is out of phase with the woofers, making the higher frequencies reach your ears first.
As far as A-pillars, while good for added high frequency clarity, frequencies that require blending the tweeter and woofer (such as the typical female voice) will be off because the tweeter is heard faster than the woofer, making the soundstage less than perfect. Actually, competition winning vehicles usually use the component tweeter as close to the woofer as possible. This provides a centered soundstage with good blending of the drivers. Then, they may add additional tweeters up high and attenuate them just to raise the soundstage and give a bit more side to side definition. The reason "Professional" installations don't put them in places other than the A pillar is because most of them use factory door locations and use A pillars so they don't have to totally gash the interior to mount the tweeters, that and they don't often make kick panels
swez on 12/25/2006 12:03:02
I agree with you about using a planar approach between the woofers, mids and tweeters. As you say, for accurate SQ, having all coils in the same vertical plane axis, we get the best phase aligments from all frequencies. The key is often to use wide dispersion pattern tweeters and aim them upward as you have mentioned.
Have you had a chance to look at CDT's site about the ambient tweeter apps they have developed? They use a 2nd pair of tweeters and attenuators to bounce highs off the windshield. This in affect, raises the high frequency end audio stage upward toward the listener's ears.
Take a look if you wish to learn a bit about this application:
http://www.cdtaudio.com/cdt10lp.htm
As you say, it's more about the location of the factory speakers. Mid door mountings, seem to be a better option than most low door designs. It's not for everyone, but after trying this method in an older Chevy Blazer, I noted a definite improvement in front stage highs.
BTW, this is not a debate per-se. Others are probably tracking this post with interest too. Am just tossing this idea out for the masses to consider as "one option" to improve poor staging presents with typical stock locations.
In your case, it seems you have everything well in hand and very happy with the results. That's all that counts. ;-)
Swez
Ash on 12/25/2006 12:37:25
This is a good post. Your right Swez, I hope others are learning from this and can try to apply it as well.
One more thing you can do to the "ambient tweeters" mounted in the A-pillars is cross them over higher.
When using silks down low around the mid, another smaller tweeter set up high and crossed over around 6k will work good. The high setting will stop from drawing too much of the main source material away and add good ambience. These can be ran of HU power as well.
For example:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-025
Between the low power (maybe a resistor or two) and high x-over setting, staging can be improved without the mains being overtaken by them.
MO on 12/25/2006 15:34:56
It's important to note that car audio components aren't really standout performers to begin with. Most don't perform worth half or even 1/4 their cost.
Competition is primarily based upon who is and isn't sponsored. If you really want to know what the good drivers are, look at who chose them and paid for them because of their performance, not what they were given by a manufacturer. Past that, install and tuning account for far more than equipment, people have won competitions with factory systems before. The good thing about a car is that it's such a terrible acoustic environment that a car's inherent issues are far worse than the differences you'll have with drivers of different quality levels. Most that consistently place well with sponsored systems tend to use "prototype" drivers, which are usually home audio drivers shoved beneath a grill so that you can't make out what it really is. Biggs and Eldridge are an example.
The best midbass drivers you could hope for will have their roots on a home audio midbass driver that you can pick up for a cool $100-200 each. Among the better performers are SEAS Excels, Peerless Exclusives, Scanspeak Revelators, Vifa XG/XT offerings, some of the Eton and Accuton offerings are notable as well. Even some of the standard offerings of all those manufacturers are better than most of the industry's offerings.
Dyn, Morel, and DLS are losing ground in the market because their competitors are quickly walking past them. The main reason Dynaudio and Focal withdrew from the DIY market is because they neglected their competition and people began to realize that they weren't worth half what they cost. Dyn, DLS, and Morel are all based on the same technologies and consequently all are becoming rapidly outdated as they haven't put a lot of effort into improving upon anything since Scaaning developed these technologies for Dyn in the 1980s. The most recent notable improvement was when Dyn licensed some Scanspeak technology by adding copper to the motor, and the others being some of their tweeter technologies. None are really stellar performers anymore, even the Dayton Reference drivers can outperform them while being available from Parts Express for a cool ~$30 each. I love my Dyns, but as time moves on you really start to realize their drawbacks in comparison to other offerings available, it's more on par with today's mid-fi than "high end" anymore. Morel and DLS are even worse examples.
The good thing is that even with their drawbacks, the above mentioned drivers still outperform 99% of stuff in the car audio world, which can arguably make them a good value.
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