I just finished installing an '06 Kicker L7 12" 2 ohm in a vented kicker box (Model: VS12L72). I am running it with a Mono Kicker 750.1 amp, and a pioneer 4800 head unit. I read a bunch of stuff online about setting up the gain. I figured that this would be the best for setting it: I turned up the HU to 3/4 and the sub level to 2/3 with a kicker bass level remote. I left the sub level on the HU set on the middle setting becasue the kicker remote is easier to use. I set everything to flat and turned all loudness and booasts off. Set the high pass and low pass filters at 80. I then put the bass boost on the amp at 3db of 18. I put the x-over freq. at around 80-85. I then put in a few cds, slowly turning up the gain to find when the bass distorted.
This is where I am having a problem. I cant really tell where the bass is distorting. Some songs also start to sound distorted before otheres. Rap with low 808 bass gets louder and deeper much faster than Rock and roll or Reggae cds. When I get the gain to one notch over half it seems to start sounding distorted for most music, but i am having a hard time differentating distorting from ratteling. When I try to hold the carpet and everything down it will sometimes go over that mark before I think it starts sounding distorted.
I dont want to push the amp too hard because I am afraid to blow the sub, and I dont have a warrenty on it. What exactly am I listening to with distortion? What kind of music should I use? I think i should use rab with low hard hitting bass, becasue thats what will use the sub most, but most sites say use a blended kind of music with highs, mids, and lows.
Any help will be greatly appriciated thanks.
Replies (22)
cplkittle on 11/27/2006 00:39:00
Bass Mechanics put out a double CD called sonic overload, this is the one I use. I prefer digitally created bass cds to set up. Some rap songs have multiple frequencies overlapping and even on the most expensive systems it sounds bad. Pure computer generated tones such as those on bass CDs are the best to test with.
I also am against any and all bass boost. I never use it at all, all it ever gave me was noise. If you can find a bass song that 'sweeps' from high to low, that would be ideal. When using a bass remote Set the knob at 1/4 or 1/3 to balance the bass with the music nicely. This gives you plenty more when you want to turn it up, and enough to silence it when you pass a cop.
swez on 11/27/2006 11:58:25
Making good progress now Cyborg...
As noted, we do find some cuts of music are very hard to get a nice, clean bass level on. I've noted some Rap songs are so heavily loaded with bass, most systems cannot handle them well at all.
Anyway, your amp has an infrasonic filter. It should be enable for vented/ported enclosures. This feature blocks ulta low bass signals that can be damaging to a vented sub. This feature is fixed at 25 Hz. Make sure that is enabled.
Other tool that can help you, are an AC voltage meter and test tone CD's like Kittle mentioned. Test tone help dial in the amp for best overall performance as they are clean tones and at reference tone levels. (O dB ref point) Here, tones at 40, 60 and 80 Hz., are best for system calibration.
Also, since rattles and other vehicle resonance problems are present, it is good to do the setup with the woofer outside the vehicle. This way, you can easily tell woofer performance from vehicle rattles and such. Just use a long speaker cable and pull the sub enclosure out of the vehicle when doing this stage of settings. (This is good for testing the maximum system capabilities of your sub and amp)
To protect an amp from over driving, we can use an AC voltage meter and test tones as measuring and tweaking tools. This amp is rated at 750 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. The AC voltage reading at the sub should read no more than 38.0 volts AC when test tones are used. If you can get that number and the sub sounds clean and robust, the amp is now dialed in properly for full power and low distortion performance.
**************************************************************************
When testing mids and highs, we often use "Pink Noise" test tones. This is a composite tone that sounds like an FM radio that is off station. It's a full range hissing tone, calibrated for 0 dB reference as well.
When using this tone, we shut off the sub and only use Mids/Highs initially. Then, stop the tone and bring up the sub volume so that we get a nice full range "Hiss/Rumble" type test tone. Adjusting the sub output to match/blend with Mid/Highs is the goal in this test.
Are you amping the Mid/Highs at this point? Say more about that part of your system OK? (speakers,amp make and model #'s are very helpful)
Swez
swez on 11/27/2006 12:19:12
Placement of this woofer box in the vehicle has a big part part in sub performance too. In most cases, we have found the best location is to set the woofer box behind the rear seat backs, firing toward the rear bumper. This is often best for SUV's, hatchbacks and sedans.
If this system is mounted in a truck cabin, the best option is often to set the sub to fire upward toward the cabin roof. Allow adequate airspace for the side vent too. This allows the sub and vent to deliver it's best performance in PU's.
FYI: Since this box has the port on one side panel, make sure you allow plenty of clearance between the vent output port and other reflective/absorbant surfaces. A foot or more of airspace is most helpful.
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 17:14:54
Thanks for the help. I just went ahead and made a 50hz test cd. Popped it in and used the multi-meter to get the volts to get the voltage to 37.9. I was not able to get this voltage using only the gain. It only got up to around 32. I turned the bass boost up one quarter so i could get 37.9, and the gain is about a notch away from being full. Is this ok? I dont have an amp for the car speakers yet. They are pioneer speakers. I would have to take them out to get the exact model numbers off of them. They are a couple of years old, so I dont have the book any more. The front ones are 4 way 6.5 inchers, and the back are 5 ways 6x9's. The back ones have 400w max i think.
Again, thanks for the help.
swez on 11/27/2006 17:57:48
Good, that step tells you that the amp is now reaching full potential with your HU and current amp gain settings. (750 watts RMS)
The next step is to try some of your music CD's and monitor the voltage again. This time, the meter will fluctuate with different bass tones on various cuts. That's normal... but the voltage should not exceed 38 volts. If it does, the amp is now clipping and needs to be adjusted downward. (recording signals are stronger on these CD's)
As you have already figured out, this system is extremely bass heavy now. Amping mids/highs will help balance them to the heavy bass. That takes between 50 - 75 watts RMS per speaker.
Are you a happy camper now?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 21:13:41
ok I measured the voltaga again. I never got a number reading over 38, in fact 34 was the closest actuall reading i got. Problem was that I kept getting the O.L reading. I'm guessing this means over load. I dont know if this is beacuse the bass was bumping too high, or if it just couldnt keep up with the transitions. I had to turn the volume down a whole lot (around 20) to get a reading without the O.L. and the highest reading it got then was around 2.6 volts. I'm hoping that the O.L. doesent mean i'm maxing out the multi meter
swez on 11/27/2006 21:20:48
It might be the meter is over loading. Some meters have selectable voltage ranges and to check higher voltages, we sometimes have to move up to a 50 volt range setting to capture peaks and voltage spikes.
Also, some meters read RMS voltage. Others can do peak or spiked AC voltage too. It all depends on the meter.
How does your bass engine sound now, after the tweaks we have offered?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 22:11:10
The bass sounds much better now. It wasnt getting loud enough when I was trying to set it by ear. It hits hard and deep. Still having some trouble hearing if its distorting or not, but I set it under 38 with the 50hz so I dont think it is. I'm going to try to find a different multi meter and see if i can get a better reading while I'm playing music.
While i'm playing some songs with really low tones the sub really pushes out and sounds kind of weird with the trunk open, I'm going to take it out and test it outside the trunk tommorow.
Thanks for the help
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 23:45:49
OK, with the way I got it set it hits pretty hard for deep bass music like three 6 mafia, lil jon, lil wayne and stuff like that, but with with out deep bass like this, the sub is pretty weak. Maybe it is supposed to not have much bass, but with hardcore, metal, and even some rap with out those low low bass notes, I'm still dissapointed.
I'm thinking that it must be the L7 sub. I have tweaked this thing as mutch as I could within the limits that everyone said that I should keep it at and with the exception of a few rap groups, I'm not getting the response I expected.
Also, before I i started really reading up on setting the sub, I was using the equalizer on my HU and when I was listening to Hail Mary (2pac) I had my mirror shaking, it doesent shake anymore. Could this mean I was clipping my amp?
Sorry about all the questions, but isnt the 2 ohm version of the speaker more powerfull then the 4 ohm? If so why do I use less voltage for setting the amp for 2 ohm as I would for setting 4 ohm?
cplkittle on 11/28/2006 00:44:35
The difference in resistance of the voice coils does not change the power handling of the speaker. The differences are for more available wiring options. The amplifier will double the output from 4ohms to 2 ohms and double again from 2 ohms to 1 ohm (if it is stable at 1 ohm).
A dual 4 ohm speaker has the following wiring options:
8ohms if wired in series, and 2 ohms if wired parallel
And a dual 2 ohm sub could be wired:
4ohms series, and 1ohm parallel.
There are multiple configurations for 2 or more subs, but basically it is so that you can get the proper ohm load on the amplifier depending on the number of subs that amplifier is running.
jerrid on 11/28/2006 11:03:44
i would like to mention one thing and thats did you set the hu to your own settings or a factory setting cuz pi's have built in hz setting that you can fine tune to your system hold down the audio button and thairs your fr hz settins fine tune them and your system can then show every thing it has
swez on 11/28/2006 16:08:49
Wad he say?
I think Jerrid means is the Pioneer HU has custom Parametric EQ and also bass engine crossover filters. Here's what Crutchfield has on it:
Quote:
"Subwoofer Output: The unit has a pair of dedicated non-fading RCA subwoofer outputs with a low-pass filter, phase adjustment, and output level. When the subwoofer output is turned on, you can select the frequency of the 18dB/octave low pass filter (50, 63, 80, 100, or 125 Hz), select the subwoofer phase (normal/reverse), and the subwoofer gain (+6 to -24).
Set this filter to 80 Hz. That will bring up more of the upper bass notes and should not sound so weak.
Also, there are other settings in the Parametric EQ that can be adjusted too. Here's the manual, incase you don't have one handy:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/130/130DEHP480.PDF
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/28/2006 18:28:48
Ive got the filter set to 80hz. If I turn the EQ on I have to go back and set up the amp again right?
swez on 11/28/2006 18:51:53
You may need some minor adjustments on the amp gains, depending on how much EQ boost is employed by the EQ at frequencies below 80 Hz.
FYI: A +3dB increase at say 60 Hz., (off your HU EQ) is like doubling the signal power your amp will see at 60 Hz. Use EQ boost sparingly is the key.
Also, look at the Parametric EQ settings for lows in the menu for that feature. It gives several center points. 40, 80, 100 & 160 Hz. Use the 40 Hz. selection.
Then, you have narrow to wide "Q" selections too. Here, a little experimentation is needed. Try Narrow 1 & 2, then Wide 1 & 2. This is noted on pages 33 -35 of the manual.
FYI: DO NOT USE THE LOUDNESS FEATURE FUNCTION !!!
This circuit operates very poorly for most installs and should not be enabled.
Got all that?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/28/2006 21:25:14
Yeah, thanks a lot Swez, you've been a lot of help. When I was reading through the book when I got the Head Unit, i couldnt make sense of the fine adjustment settings.
I have been using the Mulit meter a lot to measure the voltage readings when I get home. I think I have everything figured out for the most part. I'm not getting readings above 38v, even where i would be listening to the music at its loudest with very heavy bass. Not turning up the sub to the max yet though. Kicker said "break it in" so i'm trying to. Hard to keep that volume down though.
swez on 11/28/2006 23:02:50
Very good CDC... this HU is moderately complex if we don't understand the features and how they are best used, things get all messed up.
That 38 or so volts is not a perfect number as we are working with a variable load resistance here. It's called "inductive reactance". In a nutshell, if your amp saw a perfect, (Fixed) 2 ohm load, you'd be getting slightly different readings. However, subwoofers and speakers change resistive values based on frequency and temperatures in the voice coil. This is normal and predictable.
I won't go into the physics and math behind all that, but rest assured, when that sub does break in, it gets deeper and fuller. Give it a week or so and you'll be reaching for the remote bass knob to dial back on the bass.
Swez ;-)
PS I wish all our readers were as determined as you are to learn!
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 13:26:08
When I change up the low frequencies (40 - 160) it makes no difference in the sound. I'm guessing I have to turn the lows up to get this to change? No sure if i'm comfertable doing this, you said that +3db increase will double the amp. How do I know how many db each number adds to the HU? (range from -6 to +6. Defult setting is 0) You might not know this, but I'm reading in the book, and its kindof vague.
Ok, also, if i'm set on 40hz and i turn the low up +1 is that plutting more or less power to the amp than say 80hz or 160hz setting?
swez on 11/30/2006 14:41:50
Quote: "When I change up the low frequencies (40 - 160) it makes no difference in the sound. I'm guessing I have to turn the lows up to get this to change?"
OK, that means the amp crossovers are doing their job... cutting off bass at 80 Hz. (All is good)
Quote: "you said that +3db increase will double the amp. How do I know how many db each number adds to the HU? (range from -6 to +6. Defult setting is 0)"
Yes, if we go from "0" dB at say 50 Hz. on an EQ setting and boost that EQ value by +3dB, we have basically asked the amplifier to double that frequency as opposed to the reference "0" dB. The HU offers a range of 'cuts', (-6 & -3dB), "0'' dB is reference and 'boost of' +3 & +6 dB.
At low power, (say 50 watts) a +3dB increase in EQ boost is noticable to the ear, but not a strain on a strong (500 watt) amp. That +3db boost has now doubled the amplifier output to 100 watts. (at a given frequency range... 50 Hz.)
This is not linear math however. It's logrithmic in nature. That's what makes this tuning/tweaking process seem more an art then hard science. That seems vague to those who are not familiar with amplifier design and performance concerns. It is hard science... but only if we have the tools and knowledge to apply it.
Quote: "Ok, also, if i'm set on 40hz and i turn the low up +1 is that plutting more or less power to the amp than say 80hz or 160hz setting? "
If we add +1dB boost at 40 Hz., and when using a narrow bandwidth of boost, it will not affect what we hear at 80 Hz. and above. We only hear a very slight increase at 40 Hz., +/- the bandwidth of "Q'' (narrow or wide) band selected.
FYI: This "Q" function is a very complex matter to discuss. I'll try to give you a basic explanation below:
A narrow "Q" is on the order of 40 Hz., about +/- 3 Hz. (37 - 43 Hz.)
A wider "Q" would be more like 40 Hz., +/- 8Hz. (32 - 48 Hz.)
Also, a +1dB boost is barely audible. If we have a very quiet room, (say +65dB) ambient background noise and introduce a +1 dB tone signal, we will hear a single tone at +66dB. We can usually pick out that single tone from the ambient noise in the room.
Now, say we are in a noisy place, (Like at the shoulder of a busy freeway) the ambient noise is over +85dB of noise as cars and trucks rush by right? Then we flip on our stereo and it puts out an 86dB test tone... will we hear it over the background noise? Inside the car with the windows up... YES. Outside the car and windows rolled down, probably not.
This has to do more with our proximity to the audio source. The closer we are to the speaker, the better we can pick out a given tone. As we move away from the speakers, that tone just blends in with other background noise.
Does this make any sense to you now?
Swez
Now, consider we have a 500 watt amp and it's working at 100% of its potential. Then, we add +3dB of boost to the amp. The amp is now being asked to put out 1000 watts of power. It cannot do so, but it will try. It will provide 500 watts of clean power and then go into clipping mode beyond the normal power ratings of the amp. (Ie about 650 watts of very distorted power) NOT GOOD FOR THE AMP OR SPEAKERS.
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 17:23:30
I just finished reading through this a second time, and I think i get it. If i have it set to 40hz and turn up the low setting, it will boost the db for 40hz and no higher tones. Instead of doing this I should adjust the Q wavelength from narow to wide. This dosent seem like it would do all that much in terms of sound. I think i'm just giong to leave it at flat for now. I'm not used to the fine adjustment setting though. While I can understand the basics of it, before i got the sub i could only tell a difference with the sound by using the preset eq (natural, super bass, ect.) Hopefully once the speaker is broken in it will give better bass response.
I installed the sub and the wiring with some help from a friend, and got everything to work. I had little problem with the physical stuff, its the math and numbers that was the hard part.
That is a great discription about the fine tuning, and I even understand most of it. But I need something visual to really grasp it. I'm just having a hard time picturing it in my head. It seems like if I adjust the Q level, it just moves the flat eq line up and down a little bit. I dont know how to get it at a point where everything will be set right. The higher level models like the 5800 to the 9800 have a visual eq bar, but they hade the bright annoying blue screen, and they are expensive.
I'm going to keep trying to adjust the fine tuning, but for a quick switch when I need that extra little amount of bass for rock and roll or punk/hardcore, I'm wondering If its safe to go from flat to Natural(high +1, mid +1, low +2?) I measured the voltage on high volumes of natural, and the music usually dosent even get over 25 volts.
swez on 11/30/2006 17:54:54
I have found the "Powerful" EQ setting most helpful when using preset values for Rock, Jazz and non-Rap music. There's a nice bump in bass on this setting and some gentle boost for mid/highs too.
"Q" settings are like a mathmatical Bell curve. A wide 'Q' gives a wide shape to the upper and lower parts of the bell curve. (Gentle slopes, up and down)
Narrow 'Q' settings are the opposite of wide bell curves. They have sharp sides and a norrow peak at the top of the bell.
Unfortunately, we cannot draw such things on this site to illustrate how Bell Curves work and what they look like. If you have a statistics background or advanced math, you'd know exactly what a bell curve is and how to interpret them. I will try something and see how it comes out:
Wide Bell curve: Wide "Q"
...........................................x.................................................
..................................x................x.........................................
...............................x.........................x...................................
..........................x...................................x..............................
.....................x..............................................x........................
................x........................................................x....................
.........x..................................................................... x............
..x.......................................................................................x..
Narrow Bell curve: Narrow "Q"
............................................x...............................................
.........................................x.....x............................................
.......................................x.........x..........................................
.....................................x.............x........................................
..................................x....................x....................................
...............................x..........................x.................................
.........................x...................................... x..........................
..................x........................................................x................
Well, whadda ya know about that??? It worked. CLAP
Do you see the differences in the shape of each Bell curve? The top of the peak is the EQ centering frequency. Note how gradual the upward and downward slopes are on the wider curve? This means more frequencies are included as we boost the center frequency. (Gradual slopes = wider and smoother "Q")
The narrow curve shows less additive boost of frequencies above and below the Peak point in this graph. This is a Narrow 'Q' type slope. It is good for targeting a narrow band of frequencies off the center point of the peak. This is often called a narrow bandpass filtering slope.
Get that?
Swez HAPPY
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 22:45:12
Yep, I got it. The W makes the eq wide and the N makes the eq narrow. I was hung up on when you were telling me about the 40hz setting. When I change the wide and narrow it changes the way the line is set up. If the equalizer was set up as a bell the wide would widen it and the narrow would make it pointy.
I think ive got everything worked out. Thanks again for the help. I will be sure to come back to this board if I have any more questions.
swez on 12/1/2006 15:18:28
Yep, you got it all down well. Happy tweaking! Come back as needed for more info.
Swez
This is where I am having a problem. I cant really tell where the bass is distorting. Some songs also start to sound distorted before otheres. Rap with low 808 bass gets louder and deeper much faster than Rock and roll or Reggae cds. When I get the gain to one notch over half it seems to start sounding distorted for most music, but i am having a hard time differentating distorting from ratteling. When I try to hold the carpet and everything down it will sometimes go over that mark before I think it starts sounding distorted.
I dont want to push the amp too hard because I am afraid to blow the sub, and I dont have a warrenty on it. What exactly am I listening to with distortion? What kind of music should I use? I think i should use rab with low hard hitting bass, becasue thats what will use the sub most, but most sites say use a blended kind of music with highs, mids, and lows.
Any help will be greatly appriciated thanks.
Replies (22)
cplkittle on 11/27/2006 00:39:00
Bass Mechanics put out a double CD called sonic overload, this is the one I use. I prefer digitally created bass cds to set up. Some rap songs have multiple frequencies overlapping and even on the most expensive systems it sounds bad. Pure computer generated tones such as those on bass CDs are the best to test with.
I also am against any and all bass boost. I never use it at all, all it ever gave me was noise. If you can find a bass song that 'sweeps' from high to low, that would be ideal. When using a bass remote Set the knob at 1/4 or 1/3 to balance the bass with the music nicely. This gives you plenty more when you want to turn it up, and enough to silence it when you pass a cop.
swez on 11/27/2006 11:58:25
Making good progress now Cyborg...
As noted, we do find some cuts of music are very hard to get a nice, clean bass level on. I've noted some Rap songs are so heavily loaded with bass, most systems cannot handle them well at all.
Anyway, your amp has an infrasonic filter. It should be enable for vented/ported enclosures. This feature blocks ulta low bass signals that can be damaging to a vented sub. This feature is fixed at 25 Hz. Make sure that is enabled.
Other tool that can help you, are an AC voltage meter and test tone CD's like Kittle mentioned. Test tone help dial in the amp for best overall performance as they are clean tones and at reference tone levels. (O dB ref point) Here, tones at 40, 60 and 80 Hz., are best for system calibration.
Also, since rattles and other vehicle resonance problems are present, it is good to do the setup with the woofer outside the vehicle. This way, you can easily tell woofer performance from vehicle rattles and such. Just use a long speaker cable and pull the sub enclosure out of the vehicle when doing this stage of settings. (This is good for testing the maximum system capabilities of your sub and amp)
To protect an amp from over driving, we can use an AC voltage meter and test tones as measuring and tweaking tools. This amp is rated at 750 watts RMS @ 2 ohms. The AC voltage reading at the sub should read no more than 38.0 volts AC when test tones are used. If you can get that number and the sub sounds clean and robust, the amp is now dialed in properly for full power and low distortion performance.
**************************************************************************
When testing mids and highs, we often use "Pink Noise" test tones. This is a composite tone that sounds like an FM radio that is off station. It's a full range hissing tone, calibrated for 0 dB reference as well.
When using this tone, we shut off the sub and only use Mids/Highs initially. Then, stop the tone and bring up the sub volume so that we get a nice full range "Hiss/Rumble" type test tone. Adjusting the sub output to match/blend with Mid/Highs is the goal in this test.
Are you amping the Mid/Highs at this point? Say more about that part of your system OK? (speakers,amp make and model #'s are very helpful)
Swez
swez on 11/27/2006 12:19:12
Placement of this woofer box in the vehicle has a big part part in sub performance too. In most cases, we have found the best location is to set the woofer box behind the rear seat backs, firing toward the rear bumper. This is often best for SUV's, hatchbacks and sedans.
If this system is mounted in a truck cabin, the best option is often to set the sub to fire upward toward the cabin roof. Allow adequate airspace for the side vent too. This allows the sub and vent to deliver it's best performance in PU's.
FYI: Since this box has the port on one side panel, make sure you allow plenty of clearance between the vent output port and other reflective/absorbant surfaces. A foot or more of airspace is most helpful.
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 17:14:54
Thanks for the help. I just went ahead and made a 50hz test cd. Popped it in and used the multi-meter to get the volts to get the voltage to 37.9. I was not able to get this voltage using only the gain. It only got up to around 32. I turned the bass boost up one quarter so i could get 37.9, and the gain is about a notch away from being full. Is this ok? I dont have an amp for the car speakers yet. They are pioneer speakers. I would have to take them out to get the exact model numbers off of them. They are a couple of years old, so I dont have the book any more. The front ones are 4 way 6.5 inchers, and the back are 5 ways 6x9's. The back ones have 400w max i think.
Again, thanks for the help.
swez on 11/27/2006 17:57:48
Good, that step tells you that the amp is now reaching full potential with your HU and current amp gain settings. (750 watts RMS)
The next step is to try some of your music CD's and monitor the voltage again. This time, the meter will fluctuate with different bass tones on various cuts. That's normal... but the voltage should not exceed 38 volts. If it does, the amp is now clipping and needs to be adjusted downward. (recording signals are stronger on these CD's)
As you have already figured out, this system is extremely bass heavy now. Amping mids/highs will help balance them to the heavy bass. That takes between 50 - 75 watts RMS per speaker.
Are you a happy camper now?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 21:13:41
ok I measured the voltaga again. I never got a number reading over 38, in fact 34 was the closest actuall reading i got. Problem was that I kept getting the O.L reading. I'm guessing this means over load. I dont know if this is beacuse the bass was bumping too high, or if it just couldnt keep up with the transitions. I had to turn the volume down a whole lot (around 20) to get a reading without the O.L. and the highest reading it got then was around 2.6 volts. I'm hoping that the O.L. doesent mean i'm maxing out the multi meter
swez on 11/27/2006 21:20:48
It might be the meter is over loading. Some meters have selectable voltage ranges and to check higher voltages, we sometimes have to move up to a 50 volt range setting to capture peaks and voltage spikes.
Also, some meters read RMS voltage. Others can do peak or spiked AC voltage too. It all depends on the meter.
How does your bass engine sound now, after the tweaks we have offered?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 22:11:10
The bass sounds much better now. It wasnt getting loud enough when I was trying to set it by ear. It hits hard and deep. Still having some trouble hearing if its distorting or not, but I set it under 38 with the 50hz so I dont think it is. I'm going to try to find a different multi meter and see if i can get a better reading while I'm playing music.
While i'm playing some songs with really low tones the sub really pushes out and sounds kind of weird with the trunk open, I'm going to take it out and test it outside the trunk tommorow.
Thanks for the help
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/27/2006 23:45:49
OK, with the way I got it set it hits pretty hard for deep bass music like three 6 mafia, lil jon, lil wayne and stuff like that, but with with out deep bass like this, the sub is pretty weak. Maybe it is supposed to not have much bass, but with hardcore, metal, and even some rap with out those low low bass notes, I'm still dissapointed.
I'm thinking that it must be the L7 sub. I have tweaked this thing as mutch as I could within the limits that everyone said that I should keep it at and with the exception of a few rap groups, I'm not getting the response I expected.
Also, before I i started really reading up on setting the sub, I was using the equalizer on my HU and when I was listening to Hail Mary (2pac) I had my mirror shaking, it doesent shake anymore. Could this mean I was clipping my amp?
Sorry about all the questions, but isnt the 2 ohm version of the speaker more powerfull then the 4 ohm? If so why do I use less voltage for setting the amp for 2 ohm as I would for setting 4 ohm?
cplkittle on 11/28/2006 00:44:35
The difference in resistance of the voice coils does not change the power handling of the speaker. The differences are for more available wiring options. The amplifier will double the output from 4ohms to 2 ohms and double again from 2 ohms to 1 ohm (if it is stable at 1 ohm).
A dual 4 ohm speaker has the following wiring options:
8ohms if wired in series, and 2 ohms if wired parallel
And a dual 2 ohm sub could be wired:
4ohms series, and 1ohm parallel.
There are multiple configurations for 2 or more subs, but basically it is so that you can get the proper ohm load on the amplifier depending on the number of subs that amplifier is running.
jerrid on 11/28/2006 11:03:44
i would like to mention one thing and thats did you set the hu to your own settings or a factory setting cuz pi's have built in hz setting that you can fine tune to your system hold down the audio button and thairs your fr hz settins fine tune them and your system can then show every thing it has
swez on 11/28/2006 16:08:49
Wad he say?
I think Jerrid means is the Pioneer HU has custom Parametric EQ and also bass engine crossover filters. Here's what Crutchfield has on it:
Quote:
"Subwoofer Output: The unit has a pair of dedicated non-fading RCA subwoofer outputs with a low-pass filter, phase adjustment, and output level. When the subwoofer output is turned on, you can select the frequency of the 18dB/octave low pass filter (50, 63, 80, 100, or 125 Hz), select the subwoofer phase (normal/reverse), and the subwoofer gain (+6 to -24).
Set this filter to 80 Hz. That will bring up more of the upper bass notes and should not sound so weak.
Also, there are other settings in the Parametric EQ that can be adjusted too. Here's the manual, incase you don't have one handy:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/130/130DEHP480.PDF
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/28/2006 18:28:48
Ive got the filter set to 80hz. If I turn the EQ on I have to go back and set up the amp again right?
swez on 11/28/2006 18:51:53
You may need some minor adjustments on the amp gains, depending on how much EQ boost is employed by the EQ at frequencies below 80 Hz.
FYI: A +3dB increase at say 60 Hz., (off your HU EQ) is like doubling the signal power your amp will see at 60 Hz. Use EQ boost sparingly is the key.
Also, look at the Parametric EQ settings for lows in the menu for that feature. It gives several center points. 40, 80, 100 & 160 Hz. Use the 40 Hz. selection.
Then, you have narrow to wide "Q" selections too. Here, a little experimentation is needed. Try Narrow 1 & 2, then Wide 1 & 2. This is noted on pages 33 -35 of the manual.
FYI: DO NOT USE THE LOUDNESS FEATURE FUNCTION !!!
This circuit operates very poorly for most installs and should not be enabled.
Got all that?
Swez
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/28/2006 21:25:14
Yeah, thanks a lot Swez, you've been a lot of help. When I was reading through the book when I got the Head Unit, i couldnt make sense of the fine adjustment settings.
I have been using the Mulit meter a lot to measure the voltage readings when I get home. I think I have everything figured out for the most part. I'm not getting readings above 38v, even where i would be listening to the music at its loudest with very heavy bass. Not turning up the sub to the max yet though. Kicker said "break it in" so i'm trying to. Hard to keep that volume down though.
swez on 11/28/2006 23:02:50
Very good CDC... this HU is moderately complex if we don't understand the features and how they are best used, things get all messed up.
That 38 or so volts is not a perfect number as we are working with a variable load resistance here. It's called "inductive reactance". In a nutshell, if your amp saw a perfect, (Fixed) 2 ohm load, you'd be getting slightly different readings. However, subwoofers and speakers change resistive values based on frequency and temperatures in the voice coil. This is normal and predictable.
I won't go into the physics and math behind all that, but rest assured, when that sub does break in, it gets deeper and fuller. Give it a week or so and you'll be reaching for the remote bass knob to dial back on the bass.
Swez ;-)
PS I wish all our readers were as determined as you are to learn!
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 13:26:08
When I change up the low frequencies (40 - 160) it makes no difference in the sound. I'm guessing I have to turn the lows up to get this to change? No sure if i'm comfertable doing this, you said that +3db increase will double the amp. How do I know how many db each number adds to the HU? (range from -6 to +6. Defult setting is 0) You might not know this, but I'm reading in the book, and its kindof vague.
Ok, also, if i'm set on 40hz and i turn the low up +1 is that plutting more or less power to the amp than say 80hz or 160hz setting?
swez on 11/30/2006 14:41:50
Quote: "When I change up the low frequencies (40 - 160) it makes no difference in the sound. I'm guessing I have to turn the lows up to get this to change?"
OK, that means the amp crossovers are doing their job... cutting off bass at 80 Hz. (All is good)
Quote: "you said that +3db increase will double the amp. How do I know how many db each number adds to the HU? (range from -6 to +6. Defult setting is 0)"
Yes, if we go from "0" dB at say 50 Hz. on an EQ setting and boost that EQ value by +3dB, we have basically asked the amplifier to double that frequency as opposed to the reference "0" dB. The HU offers a range of 'cuts', (-6 & -3dB), "0'' dB is reference and 'boost of' +3 & +6 dB.
At low power, (say 50 watts) a +3dB increase in EQ boost is noticable to the ear, but not a strain on a strong (500 watt) amp. That +3db boost has now doubled the amplifier output to 100 watts. (at a given frequency range... 50 Hz.)
This is not linear math however. It's logrithmic in nature. That's what makes this tuning/tweaking process seem more an art then hard science. That seems vague to those who are not familiar with amplifier design and performance concerns. It is hard science... but only if we have the tools and knowledge to apply it.
Quote: "Ok, also, if i'm set on 40hz and i turn the low up +1 is that plutting more or less power to the amp than say 80hz or 160hz setting? "
If we add +1dB boost at 40 Hz., and when using a narrow bandwidth of boost, it will not affect what we hear at 80 Hz. and above. We only hear a very slight increase at 40 Hz., +/- the bandwidth of "Q'' (narrow or wide) band selected.
FYI: This "Q" function is a very complex matter to discuss. I'll try to give you a basic explanation below:
A narrow "Q" is on the order of 40 Hz., about +/- 3 Hz. (37 - 43 Hz.)
A wider "Q" would be more like 40 Hz., +/- 8Hz. (32 - 48 Hz.)
Also, a +1dB boost is barely audible. If we have a very quiet room, (say +65dB) ambient background noise and introduce a +1 dB tone signal, we will hear a single tone at +66dB. We can usually pick out that single tone from the ambient noise in the room.
Now, say we are in a noisy place, (Like at the shoulder of a busy freeway) the ambient noise is over +85dB of noise as cars and trucks rush by right? Then we flip on our stereo and it puts out an 86dB test tone... will we hear it over the background noise? Inside the car with the windows up... YES. Outside the car and windows rolled down, probably not.
This has to do more with our proximity to the audio source. The closer we are to the speaker, the better we can pick out a given tone. As we move away from the speakers, that tone just blends in with other background noise.
Does this make any sense to you now?
Swez
Now, consider we have a 500 watt amp and it's working at 100% of its potential. Then, we add +3dB of boost to the amp. The amp is now being asked to put out 1000 watts of power. It cannot do so, but it will try. It will provide 500 watts of clean power and then go into clipping mode beyond the normal power ratings of the amp. (Ie about 650 watts of very distorted power) NOT GOOD FOR THE AMP OR SPEAKERS.
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 17:23:30
I just finished reading through this a second time, and I think i get it. If i have it set to 40hz and turn up the low setting, it will boost the db for 40hz and no higher tones. Instead of doing this I should adjust the Q wavelength from narow to wide. This dosent seem like it would do all that much in terms of sound. I think i'm just giong to leave it at flat for now. I'm not used to the fine adjustment setting though. While I can understand the basics of it, before i got the sub i could only tell a difference with the sound by using the preset eq (natural, super bass, ect.) Hopefully once the speaker is broken in it will give better bass response.
I installed the sub and the wiring with some help from a friend, and got everything to work. I had little problem with the physical stuff, its the math and numbers that was the hard part.
That is a great discription about the fine tuning, and I even understand most of it. But I need something visual to really grasp it. I'm just having a hard time picturing it in my head. It seems like if I adjust the Q level, it just moves the flat eq line up and down a little bit. I dont know how to get it at a point where everything will be set right. The higher level models like the 5800 to the 9800 have a visual eq bar, but they hade the bright annoying blue screen, and they are expensive.
I'm going to keep trying to adjust the fine tuning, but for a quick switch when I need that extra little amount of bass for rock and roll or punk/hardcore, I'm wondering If its safe to go from flat to Natural(high +1, mid +1, low +2?) I measured the voltage on high volumes of natural, and the music usually dosent even get over 25 volts.
swez on 11/30/2006 17:54:54
I have found the "Powerful" EQ setting most helpful when using preset values for Rock, Jazz and non-Rap music. There's a nice bump in bass on this setting and some gentle boost for mid/highs too.
"Q" settings are like a mathmatical Bell curve. A wide 'Q' gives a wide shape to the upper and lower parts of the bell curve. (Gentle slopes, up and down)
Narrow 'Q' settings are the opposite of wide bell curves. They have sharp sides and a norrow peak at the top of the bell.
Unfortunately, we cannot draw such things on this site to illustrate how Bell Curves work and what they look like. If you have a statistics background or advanced math, you'd know exactly what a bell curve is and how to interpret them. I will try something and see how it comes out:
Wide Bell curve: Wide "Q"
...........................................x.................................................
..................................x................x.........................................
...............................x.........................x...................................
..........................x...................................x..............................
.....................x..............................................x........................
................x........................................................x....................
.........x..................................................................... x............
..x.......................................................................................x..
Narrow Bell curve: Narrow "Q"
............................................x...............................................
.........................................x.....x............................................
.......................................x.........x..........................................
.....................................x.............x........................................
..................................x....................x....................................
...............................x..........................x.................................
.........................x...................................... x..........................
..................x........................................................x................
Well, whadda ya know about that??? It worked. CLAP
Do you see the differences in the shape of each Bell curve? The top of the peak is the EQ centering frequency. Note how gradual the upward and downward slopes are on the wider curve? This means more frequencies are included as we boost the center frequency. (Gradual slopes = wider and smoother "Q")
The narrow curve shows less additive boost of frequencies above and below the Peak point in this graph. This is a Narrow 'Q' type slope. It is good for targeting a narrow band of frequencies off the center point of the peak. This is often called a narrow bandpass filtering slope.
Get that?
Swez HAPPY
Cyborg_Death_Camp on 11/30/2006 22:45:12
Yep, I got it. The W makes the eq wide and the N makes the eq narrow. I was hung up on when you were telling me about the 40hz setting. When I change the wide and narrow it changes the way the line is set up. If the equalizer was set up as a bell the wide would widen it and the narrow would make it pointy.
I think ive got everything worked out. Thanks again for the help. I will be sure to come back to this board if I have any more questions.
swez on 12/1/2006 15:18:28
Yep, you got it all down well. Happy tweaking! Come back as needed for more info.
Swez
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