Hey guys I have a friend who would like to upgrade front and rear stock speakers in a 99 Ford Explorer. This is a 4 door vehicle with a factory amp. We currently have installed Alpine 9851 HU, Kicker L710 powered by a JL 500/1. I bypassed the factory amp using wiring adapter and powered stock speakers with HU.
I have proposed these speakers to my buddy as he has left the equipment decisions up to me. His budget on a 4 channel amp is under $200.
Infinity Kappa 680.7cs 6x8 2way comp set for front doors 90W rms
Infinity Kappa 982.7cf 6x8 coaxial speakers for rear 100W rms
I have only used JL and Alpine amps and I am not familiar with many other brands. I am looking for a class A/B 4 channel amp within the $100-$200 that will deliver. I have heard people using Hifonics products and are pleased with the results and price point. Would this amp deliver rated specs or do you guys have any suggestions.
Hifonics ZXi 3406 Zeus 4 channel amp
75W rms into 2ohm
Thanks for your input.
Replies (13)
cplkittle on 11/21/2006 01:31:40
http://www.millionbuy.com/caudioamppow.html
POWERBASS ASA 600.4
4-Channel 1600W Amplifier
Regular price: $220.00
Sale price: $139.95
We use these all the time when customers come to us with a smaller budget. I promise this amplifier will do 95% of what it says it will do. I have been very very very impressed with these products. On top of the performance issue, they are fairly low profile and have a really nice clean look.
The kappas will sound good as long as they get the power they need.
swez on 11/21/2006 08:36:09
Agree with your Infinity speaker choices and you can even consider the 2 ohm version Coaxial series for front and rear (Infinity Kappa 682.7cf) and use a modest 4 channel amp as well.
http://www.millionbuy.com/powasa4004.html
The POWERBASS ASA 400.4 , 4-Channel 800W A/B Amplifier at $99.00 would be adequate power for the 2 ohm version speakers and bring the package price down to about $300.00 for amp & 4 speakers.
If your buddy really wants Comps up front, the 5.25" Infinity Kappa 50.7cs should drop right in with the proper adapter plates. These are also 2 ohm units and offer high efficiency as well.
Swez
demetman on 11/21/2006 10:30:45
My bad swez, 682.7cf was the model I meant to list. Using the 2ohm version only makes sence in this application. It sounds like you guys would opt for the 5.25" comps and bag the 6x8s for the front door. I only looked at the 6x8s for straight up factory replacement.
I have heard good things about Powerbass products around here and will go with one of the above models. Thanks for the suggestions.
swez on 11/21/2006 19:20:42
If he wants full Comp performance in front, that's probably his best option. (5.25" or 6.5" Rounds) The 6.5's might fit with a custom speaker baffle plate. However, you already know that route and the 5.25's are almost as good, when rear fill is picking up the majority of the MB.
I just did some digging on Infinity's web site. They do offer the REF6810CS (6x8" Comps), but these are 4 ohm units. So, if you have your mind set on 2 ohm Comps, you'll have to go with the rounds.
Swez
PS Thanks for the kind words on a previous post on your car install. It was a pleasure working with you and I hope you are fully satisfied with the desired results. If not, give me a hollar and we can discuss some options.
demetman on 11/22/2006 00:00:44
Thanks for the info guys. I like the features, power and price tag of the Powerbass ASA 400.4 amp. The speakers I have chosen for my buddies install are
Infinity Kappa680.7cs 6x8 2ohm, 90W rms comp speakers &
Infinity Kappa682.7cf 6x8 2ohm, 100W rms 2 way speakers
I can't wait to hear these speakers for which everyone holds in such high regards. They should very well powered with the Powerbass amp as well. I'll be back with results after I get them installed.
Swez, I am extremelly grateful for the detailed diagrams, knowledge and info you shared with me from beginning to end of my project. I am truely sorry I haven't thanked you personally. I am currently customizing mdf enclosures for my CDT 6x9 comps in the rear trunk panels. The a/d/s/ comps are installed with the tweeters in the dash. I will be bi-wiring the crossover networks due to the distance they are mounted from the amp. Knukoncepts has very impressive 12awg bi-wire speaker wire. I tested one channel bi-wired vs one channel conventional wired and noted an increase in music quality in the bi-wired channel. My Pioneer HU is fully covered for warrenty service and awaiting parts. Let's chat soon Swez
swez on 11/22/2006 18:14:06
You have thanked me plenty good my friend. Doing so at CK was not a bad idea and I was delighted to read your glowing reports. Hey, you did the work. I just gave you the head knowledge to guide the hands and such. (Remote controlled installer?) LOL
Sorry to hear your 7800MP is now in the shop. Hopefully they can turn it around in short order for you.
Interesting comment about Bi-amping the ADS front comps too Dem. How is this accomplished when using a 2 channel amp?
As for your rear CDT's, shoot for a sealed enclosure of ~0.2 per cf speaker. Anything larger than that, will not support the woofer well enough and the woofer can get a bit wild, depending on the HPF settings. (~80 Hz is recommended here)
Swez
demetman on 11/23/2006 23:28:29
Swez, I may just be lucky on how observant you are. The fact that you asked me how I accomplished bi-wiring my a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" comps with the 2 channel JL 300/2 has raised some questions. I wired the amp by inserting both positive(+) wires to the positive(+) terminal and both negative(-) wires to the negative(-) terminal of one channel of the amp. Have I gone MAD here Swez? This was done as a test to compare conventional wiring to bi-wiring. I studied my a/d/s/ manual and on page 12 it looks like to me a proper wiring technique. This was done last week just before I removed my HU for warranty service. I didn't have any amplifier or speaker problems with the bi-wired channel at the time of testing. Should I disconnect the bi-wired channel and re-wire as conventional as to avoid any damage to amp or speakers before my HU is reinstalled?
This technique did seem a little odd to me as it was a little difficult to get 2ea 12awg wires into one terminal of the amp. You may have saved my butt here Swez once again. Thanks for attention to details.
Demetrios
swez on 11/24/2006 01:15:22
If I was in your kitchen and your understudy, you'd be on me like a new suit about doing things well the first time right? Well, same here Dem... "You're in my kitchen now" LOL
Overview:
Am not intimately familiar with ADS Comps. However, I do understand Bi,tri and quad amping techniques well. In a nutshell, each driver, (Twt,Mid, MB & Sub each have their own amp channels and filters.
The larger the driver element and lower the frequency it is asked to reproduce, (MB & Sub) the more power is required to drive it to the proper levels.
Conversely, small elements that only reproduce mids and highs, are very efficient with power and do not require a lot of power to get them up to target SPL levels.
More Details:
When using passive crossovers, the MB gets about 60-75% of the amp's power. The rest, goes to the tweeter. Each part of the crossover network has filters and attenuators to send the right amount of power and the correct frequency ranges to each driver.
In true Biamp scenarios, each driver has its own amp channel and filtering network. The amp that powers the woofer/MB is often pretty strong. The amping power needed to power the TW, is much smaller, to get a good match of SPL with the mated woofer. If the amp power is large, we run the risk of damaging the tweeter, (Too much power) unless that part of the crossover has attenuators and power protection circuits to bleed off excess input voltage.
Got all that so far?
Now, ADS may offer simulated or true Biamp configurations here. The manual will tell you that. We can tell if this Comp system is a true Biamp capable system if each driver, (TW/MB) have their own amp channel (termination) connections. As I recall, your crossovers have an internal switch for conventional 2-way or Biamping modes. Is that correct?
The only real concern here, is if you elect to go with the Biamp configuration and use one strong amp channel for both the TW and MB driver, will the crossover compensate for the power needs of the tweeter? If the tweeter's crossover is designed for that, it will have attenuators and maybe power dissapation devices, (power bleeding lamps) to protect your tweeters.
The only difference you may be hearing now is phase changes on the tweeter. With the conventional crossover, the tweet is often wired 180 degrees out of phase with the MB/woofer. This compensates for filter alignments used for each driver. The MB/woofer is often aligned at 0 degrees phasing. The tweeter is offset by 180 degrees due to the extra capacitors and inductors used. (Very complex circuits here and I don't see a need to bore any with these details)
In short, your ADS Comps may indeed be well suited to the new wiring changes made. My only concern in Biamping mode, is whether the tweets are:
A. Able to take the power that amp can deliver
B. Phase alignment issues bewteen TW and MB/woofer
If you have a .pdf link to these Comps, I'd be happy to review it and give you some thoughts.
Swez
PS Just watching your back side here Dem. If I were in your kitchen, you'd do the same for me too.
demetman on 11/24/2006 10:53:00
I appreciate you looking out for me here Swez! I just went to directed.com to see if I could grab the manual for you to review and like many sites, it's there I just could not access it. I do clearly understand bi-amping and the manual for these comps show seperate pages for bi-amping conections to the crossovers and bi-wiring to crossover using one amp. I also called directed and they are closed until Mon.
This is straight from the manual.
CROSSOVER INSTALLATION
The system supports conventional wiring, bi-wiring or bi-amping using the supplied passive crossovers. While conventional(parallel mode) will provide excellent sound, bi-wiring or bi-amping may further enhance the performance in no-compromise systems.
Bi-wiring uses a seperate pair of speaker wiresfor the high freq and low freq signal between an amplifier channel and it's associated crossover network. This gives you the option of chosing wire which may have slightly different sonic characteristics in order to optimize performance of each frequancy range. Also, it reduces the overall wiring resistance between the crossover and the amplifier, much like the use of larger guage wire. This option provides the most benefit when the crossover network is mounted a long distance away from the amplifier. If the crossover is mounted close to the amp it is doubtful that there will be an appreciable difference between bi-wiring and conventional wiring.
Maybe I need to make a call to directed Mon morning inquiring about the bi-wiring connections using a 2 channel amp. They do show a bi-wiring connections to crossover diagram on page 12 of the manual with one amp and two wires coming from one amp terminal and going to the + tweeter and + woofer terminal of the crossover network. The same for the - terminal of the amp to the crossover - terminals of the woofer and tweeter.
If I remember correctly, Victor once pointed out something specific from the manual related to bi-wiring. Maybe he has access to the manual and can clarify things. Well got to get to work. Talk to you soon.
swez on 11/24/2006 12:42:43
I did find the manual and link here:
http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/og/ads-mobile/G39301.06_04-04.pdf
Look at page 12 for details on bi-wiring. Note there are 4 wires coming off a single channel amp, but polarity is observed per the picture for proper phasing between woofer and tweeter.
I also see this crossover has thermal and anti-clipping circuits, attenuation and a phase switch for the tweeter. You can use the standard mode or bi-wiring configurations with no harm to your speakers.
Frankly, it is difficult to see the real benefits between convention and bi-wiring techniques here. (just 1 more wiring step) Also, true bi-amping setups may provide a some (but minimal) sonic improvement over the standard crossover or bi-wiring unless each amp has active bandpass filters.
Since these amps have active filters, there are no insertion losses from passive components and the crossover is not really needed at all in well designed bi-amping mode. The key here, is to stay within the adequate wattage range per element. (Woofer & Tweeter)
However, when bi-amping w/ the crossover, minimal filtering is needed as the crossover does all the work for you. Yes, one can expect a 1.0-1.5dB insertion loss w/ the crossover, but with adequate amping power, this issue is minimal.
In short, try the standard and bi-wiring modes as noted in the manual. Only then can you determine the benefits, (If any) for using one method over another. To my reckoning, Bi-amping makes sense in live audio, studio mixing and perhaps a very high end HT system. But for mobile apps, road noise and such will pretty much mask any real benefits and just add costs that most cannot justify.
Comments?
Swez
demetman on 11/25/2006 12:35:01
Thanks for looking at the manual for me Swez. I'm sure to many I wasted $50 on bi-wire when the comps already sounded great wired conventionally. I can't help myself to experiment with different things that potentially can improve the quality of sound, especially when supported by the menufacturer of a product.
Well at this point I have one channel of the 300/2 in bi-wired configuration and the other channel conventional. Now I'm just waiting for my HU to be repaired so I can conclude and wrap this up. I'll keep you posted.
Demetrios
swez on 11/25/2006 13:13:23
There ya go Dem... that will be a good test of which sounds best in real time. Pan full LF, then full RF and see if you hear any real differences in conventional VS bi-wiring.
The real acid test is not when parked and listening. It's motoring about your normal routes that will tell. Road noise tends to mask high definition audio upgrades anyway. Funny how we strive for the most perfect mobile sound possible, only to be over ruled by road noise.
Swez
swez on 11/25/2006 13:15:07
YIM chat this week? Can do if you wish... SMILE
Swez
I have proposed these speakers to my buddy as he has left the equipment decisions up to me. His budget on a 4 channel amp is under $200.
Infinity Kappa 680.7cs 6x8 2way comp set for front doors 90W rms
Infinity Kappa 982.7cf 6x8 coaxial speakers for rear 100W rms
I have only used JL and Alpine amps and I am not familiar with many other brands. I am looking for a class A/B 4 channel amp within the $100-$200 that will deliver. I have heard people using Hifonics products and are pleased with the results and price point. Would this amp deliver rated specs or do you guys have any suggestions.
Hifonics ZXi 3406 Zeus 4 channel amp
75W rms into 2ohm
Thanks for your input.
Replies (13)
cplkittle on 11/21/2006 01:31:40
http://www.millionbuy.com/caudioamppow.html
POWERBASS ASA 600.4
4-Channel 1600W Amplifier
Regular price: $220.00
Sale price: $139.95
We use these all the time when customers come to us with a smaller budget. I promise this amplifier will do 95% of what it says it will do. I have been very very very impressed with these products. On top of the performance issue, they are fairly low profile and have a really nice clean look.
The kappas will sound good as long as they get the power they need.
swez on 11/21/2006 08:36:09
Agree with your Infinity speaker choices and you can even consider the 2 ohm version Coaxial series for front and rear (Infinity Kappa 682.7cf) and use a modest 4 channel amp as well.
http://www.millionbuy.com/powasa4004.html
The POWERBASS ASA 400.4 , 4-Channel 800W A/B Amplifier at $99.00 would be adequate power for the 2 ohm version speakers and bring the package price down to about $300.00 for amp & 4 speakers.
If your buddy really wants Comps up front, the 5.25" Infinity Kappa 50.7cs should drop right in with the proper adapter plates. These are also 2 ohm units and offer high efficiency as well.
Swez
demetman on 11/21/2006 10:30:45
My bad swez, 682.7cf was the model I meant to list. Using the 2ohm version only makes sence in this application. It sounds like you guys would opt for the 5.25" comps and bag the 6x8s for the front door. I only looked at the 6x8s for straight up factory replacement.
I have heard good things about Powerbass products around here and will go with one of the above models. Thanks for the suggestions.
swez on 11/21/2006 19:20:42
If he wants full Comp performance in front, that's probably his best option. (5.25" or 6.5" Rounds) The 6.5's might fit with a custom speaker baffle plate. However, you already know that route and the 5.25's are almost as good, when rear fill is picking up the majority of the MB.
I just did some digging on Infinity's web site. They do offer the REF6810CS (6x8" Comps), but these are 4 ohm units. So, if you have your mind set on 2 ohm Comps, you'll have to go with the rounds.
Swez
PS Thanks for the kind words on a previous post on your car install. It was a pleasure working with you and I hope you are fully satisfied with the desired results. If not, give me a hollar and we can discuss some options.
demetman on 11/22/2006 00:00:44
Thanks for the info guys. I like the features, power and price tag of the Powerbass ASA 400.4 amp. The speakers I have chosen for my buddies install are
Infinity Kappa680.7cs 6x8 2ohm, 90W rms comp speakers &
Infinity Kappa682.7cf 6x8 2ohm, 100W rms 2 way speakers
I can't wait to hear these speakers for which everyone holds in such high regards. They should very well powered with the Powerbass amp as well. I'll be back with results after I get them installed.
Swez, I am extremelly grateful for the detailed diagrams, knowledge and info you shared with me from beginning to end of my project. I am truely sorry I haven't thanked you personally. I am currently customizing mdf enclosures for my CDT 6x9 comps in the rear trunk panels. The a/d/s/ comps are installed with the tweeters in the dash. I will be bi-wiring the crossover networks due to the distance they are mounted from the amp. Knukoncepts has very impressive 12awg bi-wire speaker wire. I tested one channel bi-wired vs one channel conventional wired and noted an increase in music quality in the bi-wired channel. My Pioneer HU is fully covered for warrenty service and awaiting parts. Let's chat soon Swez
swez on 11/22/2006 18:14:06
You have thanked me plenty good my friend. Doing so at CK was not a bad idea and I was delighted to read your glowing reports. Hey, you did the work. I just gave you the head knowledge to guide the hands and such. (Remote controlled installer?) LOL
Sorry to hear your 7800MP is now in the shop. Hopefully they can turn it around in short order for you.
Interesting comment about Bi-amping the ADS front comps too Dem. How is this accomplished when using a 2 channel amp?
As for your rear CDT's, shoot for a sealed enclosure of ~0.2 per cf speaker. Anything larger than that, will not support the woofer well enough and the woofer can get a bit wild, depending on the HPF settings. (~80 Hz is recommended here)
Swez
demetman on 11/23/2006 23:28:29
Swez, I may just be lucky on how observant you are. The fact that you asked me how I accomplished bi-wiring my a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" comps with the 2 channel JL 300/2 has raised some questions. I wired the amp by inserting both positive(+) wires to the positive(+) terminal and both negative(-) wires to the negative(-) terminal of one channel of the amp. Have I gone MAD here Swez? This was done as a test to compare conventional wiring to bi-wiring. I studied my a/d/s/ manual and on page 12 it looks like to me a proper wiring technique. This was done last week just before I removed my HU for warranty service. I didn't have any amplifier or speaker problems with the bi-wired channel at the time of testing. Should I disconnect the bi-wired channel and re-wire as conventional as to avoid any damage to amp or speakers before my HU is reinstalled?
This technique did seem a little odd to me as it was a little difficult to get 2ea 12awg wires into one terminal of the amp. You may have saved my butt here Swez once again. Thanks for attention to details.
Demetrios
swez on 11/24/2006 01:15:22
If I was in your kitchen and your understudy, you'd be on me like a new suit about doing things well the first time right? Well, same here Dem... "You're in my kitchen now" LOL
Overview:
Am not intimately familiar with ADS Comps. However, I do understand Bi,tri and quad amping techniques well. In a nutshell, each driver, (Twt,Mid, MB & Sub each have their own amp channels and filters.
The larger the driver element and lower the frequency it is asked to reproduce, (MB & Sub) the more power is required to drive it to the proper levels.
Conversely, small elements that only reproduce mids and highs, are very efficient with power and do not require a lot of power to get them up to target SPL levels.
More Details:
When using passive crossovers, the MB gets about 60-75% of the amp's power. The rest, goes to the tweeter. Each part of the crossover network has filters and attenuators to send the right amount of power and the correct frequency ranges to each driver.
In true Biamp scenarios, each driver has its own amp channel and filtering network. The amp that powers the woofer/MB is often pretty strong. The amping power needed to power the TW, is much smaller, to get a good match of SPL with the mated woofer. If the amp power is large, we run the risk of damaging the tweeter, (Too much power) unless that part of the crossover has attenuators and power protection circuits to bleed off excess input voltage.
Got all that so far?
Now, ADS may offer simulated or true Biamp configurations here. The manual will tell you that. We can tell if this Comp system is a true Biamp capable system if each driver, (TW/MB) have their own amp channel (termination) connections. As I recall, your crossovers have an internal switch for conventional 2-way or Biamping modes. Is that correct?
The only real concern here, is if you elect to go with the Biamp configuration and use one strong amp channel for both the TW and MB driver, will the crossover compensate for the power needs of the tweeter? If the tweeter's crossover is designed for that, it will have attenuators and maybe power dissapation devices, (power bleeding lamps) to protect your tweeters.
The only difference you may be hearing now is phase changes on the tweeter. With the conventional crossover, the tweet is often wired 180 degrees out of phase with the MB/woofer. This compensates for filter alignments used for each driver. The MB/woofer is often aligned at 0 degrees phasing. The tweeter is offset by 180 degrees due to the extra capacitors and inductors used. (Very complex circuits here and I don't see a need to bore any with these details)
In short, your ADS Comps may indeed be well suited to the new wiring changes made. My only concern in Biamping mode, is whether the tweets are:
A. Able to take the power that amp can deliver
B. Phase alignment issues bewteen TW and MB/woofer
If you have a .pdf link to these Comps, I'd be happy to review it and give you some thoughts.
Swez
PS Just watching your back side here Dem. If I were in your kitchen, you'd do the same for me too.
demetman on 11/24/2006 10:53:00
I appreciate you looking out for me here Swez! I just went to directed.com to see if I could grab the manual for you to review and like many sites, it's there I just could not access it. I do clearly understand bi-amping and the manual for these comps show seperate pages for bi-amping conections to the crossovers and bi-wiring to crossover using one amp. I also called directed and they are closed until Mon.
This is straight from the manual.
CROSSOVER INSTALLATION
The system supports conventional wiring, bi-wiring or bi-amping using the supplied passive crossovers. While conventional(parallel mode) will provide excellent sound, bi-wiring or bi-amping may further enhance the performance in no-compromise systems.
Bi-wiring uses a seperate pair of speaker wiresfor the high freq and low freq signal between an amplifier channel and it's associated crossover network. This gives you the option of chosing wire which may have slightly different sonic characteristics in order to optimize performance of each frequancy range. Also, it reduces the overall wiring resistance between the crossover and the amplifier, much like the use of larger guage wire. This option provides the most benefit when the crossover network is mounted a long distance away from the amplifier. If the crossover is mounted close to the amp it is doubtful that there will be an appreciable difference between bi-wiring and conventional wiring.
Maybe I need to make a call to directed Mon morning inquiring about the bi-wiring connections using a 2 channel amp. They do show a bi-wiring connections to crossover diagram on page 12 of the manual with one amp and two wires coming from one amp terminal and going to the + tweeter and + woofer terminal of the crossover network. The same for the - terminal of the amp to the crossover - terminals of the woofer and tweeter.
If I remember correctly, Victor once pointed out something specific from the manual related to bi-wiring. Maybe he has access to the manual and can clarify things. Well got to get to work. Talk to you soon.
swez on 11/24/2006 12:42:43
I did find the manual and link here:
http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/og/ads-mobile/G39301.06_04-04.pdf
Look at page 12 for details on bi-wiring. Note there are 4 wires coming off a single channel amp, but polarity is observed per the picture for proper phasing between woofer and tweeter.
I also see this crossover has thermal and anti-clipping circuits, attenuation and a phase switch for the tweeter. You can use the standard mode or bi-wiring configurations with no harm to your speakers.
Frankly, it is difficult to see the real benefits between convention and bi-wiring techniques here. (just 1 more wiring step) Also, true bi-amping setups may provide a some (but minimal) sonic improvement over the standard crossover or bi-wiring unless each amp has active bandpass filters.
Since these amps have active filters, there are no insertion losses from passive components and the crossover is not really needed at all in well designed bi-amping mode. The key here, is to stay within the adequate wattage range per element. (Woofer & Tweeter)
However, when bi-amping w/ the crossover, minimal filtering is needed as the crossover does all the work for you. Yes, one can expect a 1.0-1.5dB insertion loss w/ the crossover, but with adequate amping power, this issue is minimal.
In short, try the standard and bi-wiring modes as noted in the manual. Only then can you determine the benefits, (If any) for using one method over another. To my reckoning, Bi-amping makes sense in live audio, studio mixing and perhaps a very high end HT system. But for mobile apps, road noise and such will pretty much mask any real benefits and just add costs that most cannot justify.
Comments?
Swez
demetman on 11/25/2006 12:35:01
Thanks for looking at the manual for me Swez. I'm sure to many I wasted $50 on bi-wire when the comps already sounded great wired conventionally. I can't help myself to experiment with different things that potentially can improve the quality of sound, especially when supported by the menufacturer of a product.
Well at this point I have one channel of the 300/2 in bi-wired configuration and the other channel conventional. Now I'm just waiting for my HU to be repaired so I can conclude and wrap this up. I'll keep you posted.
Demetrios
swez on 11/25/2006 13:13:23
There ya go Dem... that will be a good test of which sounds best in real time. Pan full LF, then full RF and see if you hear any real differences in conventional VS bi-wiring.
The real acid test is not when parked and listening. It's motoring about your normal routes that will tell. Road noise tends to mask high definition audio upgrades anyway. Funny how we strive for the most perfect mobile sound possible, only to be over ruled by road noise.
Swez
swez on 11/25/2006 13:15:07
YIM chat this week? Can do if you wish... SMILE
Swez
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