I have a Pioneer DEH-3800 cd player.It has 2, 2.5 volt outputs one sub and one rear.I was just wondering which one would I plug into the input rca on a Clarion eq.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16889
Replies (23)
swez on 11/11/2006 22:43:38
In this case, you'll only need the front channel RCA's off the HU.
That will feed into the Clarion EQ inputs and your F,R & S channels are all controlled by the EQ. This EQ has a Master volume, a Sub channel volume and F/R fader.
Here, you'll need a 4 channel amp for mid/highs to power your F & R speakers, and a sub amp. This EQ does all the work for you, when there are enough amp channels (5/6) to work with.
Comprehend all that?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/11/2006 22:52:05
Got it Swez. One more question though, will I still setup the features on the HU or should I leave them alone and control everything from the eq.?
swez on 11/12/2006 09:43:49
Since the HU is only a music signal source now, use the EQ features as much as possible.
Your HU will not be able to control rear and sub channels when using this EQ as noted. You will not have fade or sub control features in the HU available. Those menu selections can be disabled or left as default factory settings.
You can still use HU EQ, crossovers and balance controls off the HU. All other features are pretty much bypassed and now controlled by the EQ.
Swez
PS Which features are you concerned about losing in the HU?
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 11:16:03
Oh, I wasn't worried about losing any features I'm just new to equalizers and was wondering kinda how it worked. I wasn't too sure about the rca outputs on the head unit so I was just gonna go buy a new head unit with only one rca output. So when I want to turn the music volume up and down do I do it straight on the eq? I've decided to change my whole setup starting with adding one of these instead of a line driver or crossover.
swez on 11/12/2006 12:07:05
That EQ is both a Line Driver and EQ. You only need 1 pair of RCA's to feed the EQ. Your present HU can cover that just fine and the EQ controls (Master volume, Sub Volume, fader and EQ bands) are just there for fast adjustments on the fly. If the HU works well enough now, no need to replace it.
Here, there is no need to fart around with tedious HU menu selections once the EQ is tweaked properly with default HU settings. Yes, you can control volume with either the HU volume control or use the EQ's Master Volume if you wish.
FYI: It does take a little more time to set up all your gear properly when adding an EQ/LD to the list. However, the simplicity of use and adjusting EQ curves on the fly, are well worth the time.
Swez
PS I have installed a few Audiobahn AEQ6's already and found this product to be very easy to use and dial in. Your Clarion system is very similar in function and once installed, you'll love the added conveiniences.
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 14:00:42
Thanks swez.I was wondering if I could have your input on this matter while I have your attention, as to I have a hard time making decisions on car audio and there is so much to choose from.
I'm looking at subs and amps.Amp wise I wanna get something from online car stereo.They seem to have good enough prices,warranty and reputable. Sub wise I'm looking at Ascendant Audio,and FI Car Audio. These are the two companies I'm interested in through tons of research and reading. Budget wise is 500 for amp and 500-600 for subs.
I don't compete or anything I just want some deep bass you can feel in your chest and it makes you wanna turn it down but instead you turn it up.I don't really wanna upgrade the alt. but I'm not worried about that, if I have to I'll upgrade.6-8 cubes sealed or ported.
I just don't know what way to go Swez. Four 12"s sealed, one 18" ported, two 15"s ported.Here's some links
1 of these Q18"s- https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1545576e2a24007/shopdata/0020_Q/product_overview.shopscript
4 of these- http://www.ascendantaudio.com/assassin12specs.html
2 of these SSD 15"s- https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1545576e2a24007/shopdata/0030_SSD/product_overview.shopscript
2 of these- http://www.ascendantaudio.com/arsenal15specs.html
Victor on 11/12/2006 17:13:13
heard a few good things about the ascendant audio , u shud have a look at the Resonant Engineering as well as the Adire Audio line of subs.....
swez on 11/12/2006 18:01:42
I have not had a chance to review Ascendent Audio products to date, but from what I note in your links, you can go either way on the 12" Assassin series or a pair of Arsenals with very good results. Ported, both will give you very nice lows. Same with the Fi sub options.
I guess it really boils down to real estate you can provide in the install:
1. A set of 4 x 12's are 2.0 cf/sub. (~10.0 cf external here)
2. A pair of 15's is 3.5 cf/sub. (~ 8.5 cf external here)
3. A single Fi Q18 needs a huge ported box, but it's a bit more efficient too. This would be a great option for 60 Hz and lower. A 1200 watt RMS amp is plenty here and probably the most cost effective option as well. (Dual 1 ohm DVC here)
I also note low efficiency numbers for both of the AA subs. That's not a real problem. It just means a larger amp to power them properly. The Fi Q15's makes more sense, if you have the real estate for such large boxes.
Amp wise, looks like a 1 ohm stable amp, (~1500 watts RMS) is needed for either system. Or, using dual amps @ 2 ohms (~700 watts RMS/ea.) if you wish.
OK, it really depends on budget and space in your vehicle, which option is best. Frankly, a pair of Arsenals would be a very good choice if you really want to move some serious lows. The enclosure would be a tad smaller and one can always build dual boxes for ease of loading and drop to one box when extra cargo space is needed.
As I looked at the Fi Q15 series, that would probably be my overall best picks for a dual 15" system. They are pretty efficient, can handle plenty of RMS power and you can scale the enclosure and tuning frequency as needed. I also like the 1 or 2 ohm DVC option here.
Yes, these subs would like a larger amp... 2000 + watts RMS and depending on your listening habits, electrical upgrades would definitely be an added expense.
1. H.O. ALT (250-300 amperes)
2. Big 3 wiring upgrade kit
3. A strong Deep Cycle BAT (perhaps 2) when you really push them hard
Keep all that in mind as you plan your moves and also think about a strong Mid/High amp and speakers to keep up with your subs as well.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 19:20:01
Swez I appreciate your time bro.I'm just lookin for someone that has your knowledge of this, that is willing to kick around some ideas.There are so many products out there that I cannot make my mind up.Here's somemore info.
Wiring wise I'll have 0 gauge all the way around(big three, amp).Mids and hi's got it taken care of.Upgrading the battery I will do.Alternator I really don't want to but won't be a problem if I have to.Don't want to add another batt. it would be a huge p.i.t.a..
With info and current situation thus far,and subs mentioned, what would you do with a ......
Kicker zx1500.1
Kicker zx1000.1
The things I keep in back of my mind are with ported boxes they require less power to reach full potential,sealed built to spec you wanna match rms values,adding a more power or more cone area will get you a few db's(depending on how much more power and cone area).
The main thing is when it comes down to it I don;t know how to put all these meanings together to form the solution on what to buy.I did limit the amp range down to the two kicker's though.I guess I'm kinda gettin there.
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 20:30:58
Well after reading your recommendations over a few times and thinking.What about the kicker zx1000.1 and the Q18"? Since they are both rated for 1000 watts rms what type of box?I mean with ported that will be louder but at the same time it reduces power handling.
swez on 11/12/2006 20:54:15
The Kicker amps make a lot of sence when coupled with the Fi Q18 sub. The 1000.1 is enough power and you can go ported with this amp as it had am Infrasonic filter too.
I would probably want to contact Fi about more compact ported designs and see what they recommend. It would be nice if you could use say 5.0-6.0 cf, ported and tuned to about 30 Hz.
If you went this route, you may not need much more than a larger CCA rated BAT, depending on your listening habits. If you do note significant light dimming, it will only be at low engine RPM's and that can be remedied by a smaller diameter pully on your ALT. This will give the ALT more RPM at low idle speeds and kick up available output.
How much amping power is enough? When the sub is able to reach X-Max, you have enough power to make the sub work to its full capacity. Any more power than that, is often wasted on heat or can damage mechanicals of a given sub. We can tell when a sub has reached that point by listening and observing cone movement.
The main thing I try to stress in strong woofer performance, "KEEP THE AMP POWER CLEAN". A given sub that is rated at say 500 watts RMS, will be very happy to have an amp that can deliver clean power spikes that are well over 500 RMS.
On the other side of the coin, yes... a 300 watt amp can deliver well over 500 watts for short durations. However, the amp will be clipping badly at that point and this causes heat buildup in the sub coils.
A robust sub can handle10-25% clipping for short periods. However, it's when some dummy runs his cheepie sub and amp at very high distortion levels... (all the time) he fries the coils or the sub will seize up.
This is a learning process and we have helped thousands of readers over the years. Get in line, put on your thinking cap and get out your wallet... we'll help you with the rest OK?
No need to get a migrane over all this either. We've been down this path so often, I can do this in my sleep. All you need do is pay attention and don't abuse your gear. Take a few deep breaths and chill... we've got your backside covered.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 21:26:39
I read some articles on their website and 6 cf. after all displacments would work for 2 15"s or 1 18".
As of now I got it narrowed down to the Kicker 1500.1 and the two 15s or the kicker 1000.1 and the single 18".The thing is on the 1500.1 could I just get away with a HO alt. and one optima yellow top under the hood or do you think I'll need 2 batts.?
swez on 11/13/2006 09:24:20
May not need the H.O. ALT here, but a strong BAT and Big 3 wiring for sure. Depends on the current rating of your present ALT.
Flexing panels and glass??? Oh yeah... if the vehicle seals well and does not leak a lot of air, either of these systems will flex them pretty good.
There is not a huge difference in SPL between 2x15's or a single 18. The Q18 is pretty high efficiency and a coupled with a ZX1000.1, this should be a very strong sub system. Going ported and using about 6 cf should be managable and still give great low bass and High SPL numbers.
It's really up to you here Anon. But frankly, the Q18/ZX1000.1 is gonna boom nice and save ya some cash too. You may not even need a H.O. ALT here, depending on your listening habits. Use the 1+1 DVC if you go with the Q18.
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/13/2006 12:54:29
See thats the type of stuff I can't put together when choosing equipment,"There is not a huge difference in SPL between 2x15's or a single 18".I'm not trying to squeeze every number out in a spl comp, I just wanna move some major air and flex.Like I said before I have no clue why but I love to see a car get hammered.Most people don't want panel flex,me I love it.Don't get me wrong I know trunk rattling is way annoying but I know how to control it so it doesn't just sound like crap.
swez on 11/13/2006 13:22:08
A lot of this depends on the subs used, enclosure, amp power, sub efficiencies, placement/aiming and acoustic coupling within the vehicle used.That's a lot of parameters to weigh and consider.
One thing I don't recall, what type of vehicle are you working with here? The internal dimensions of the space the sub/box will be set and location/aiming will also deternine what fits best in a given vehicle too.
Fill in that part next OK?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/13/2006 17:55:29
I don't have the car yet but most likely it will be a cavalier 95-00.However my current cars consist of, 1994 Pontiac Sunbird and 2001 Chevy Malibu.I've done some checking around and some measuring and the Sunbird has the same dimensions as the Cavaliers.Another interesting thing is the Malibu only has 2 more inches(depth wise) but the other dimensions are the same.
Box wise I plan on using the whole trunk which I figure is around 6-8 cubes of usable space.I don't plan on building the box until I actually have the car just to be sure.Plans I've been thinking of are making a rectangular box with sub(s) facing up and port facing rear bumper.I figure I can take out the backseat and slide it in.Port wise I wanna do more of a square port that faces the rear rather than a conventional slot or round port.
swez on 11/13/2006 22:07:33
OK, good that you mentioned a sedan as this may change your strategy a bit on sub choice and orientation.
In a sedan, up-firing subs toward the trunk lid usually nets very poor results. Why? When the sub cone is only 6-10" from a solid, reflective surface, (metal trunk lid) bass waves deflect off the truck lid and back to the sub cone. Results... terrible bass cancellations and poor sounding bass, until we oprn up the truck. (Gets much better now)
Now, mounting the sub box under the parcel shelf, firing to the rear of a sedan is MUCH better. Here, the bass waves have some space to propagate well. If the rear seat folds down, even better as we get more bass propagation into the cabin area of a sedan.
Also, a huge coffin enclosure eats up a lot of trunk space. This in turn, creates less airspace for bass waves to propagate and actually hinders net bass output. (Fine if you have a large SUV, Van or extended cab truck) But not in a sedan!!! Here, a 2-3cf enclosure makes much more sense.
In short, digest all this and strongly consider going to dual 12 or dual 15's that will fit under the rear deck and fire toward the rear bumper. Many very good subs out there today that can do a fine job in compact ported enclosures. Even a single strong 12 or 15 in a well designed enclosure will deliver excellent bass in a sedan.
Trust me on this one Anon... I would not allow you to spend all this time, money and effort and wind up very unhappy with the results.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/14/2006 00:08:33
Well Swez I got some new insights.I know I'm tryin to squeeze 100lbs. of ____ (insert word of choice) into a 5lb. bag.It feels good not being pushed into buying stuff as to knowing the technicalities and net better results.I'm stoked about the 18 idea just something new I wanted to try,but I think I got some better ideas.As to checking out some rides like the kind I'm thinking about 2 15s would work facing the rear bumper.I guess on the second round of this I'll start with subs first then pick the amp.
It would be easy picking a good pair of subs but i want hand built subs that are tested through and through and backed with a good warranty and not something thats just thrown together on a assembly line or something and stamped with bogus numbers.
I'm coming from a single 12" sub.Don't get me wrong I know what single setups with correct power and box size can do.My single 12 slammed hard and it shocked everyone that heard it because they thought I had a few subs.It just wasn't moving the kind of air I wanted it to because it was only 12" of cone area.
Let me know what you think of either two of these 12s or two 15s
http://soundsplinter.com/rlp_premium_series_12_and_15_inch_subwoofer.html
swez on 11/14/2006 11:30:44
Yes, these subs are modeled with precision components and very accurate at high SPL levels too. (BL sq'd technololgy) This is becoming more common in high accuracy HT and car audio offerings from Resonant Engineering and used by Adire Audio too.
These subs are designed for linear and very flat response curves that demand excellent cone controll at high bass SPL.
If you can use dual 12's into this app, use this box for car apps. Two of these subs will need a medium-size enclosure(s). Figure the minimum height/width for a box using this sub, will be about 15" H x 15" W x "Y" Deep = 1.5 Ft^3 + port(s) displacement.
The Vented, 1.5 cu ft net, Tuned to 34 Hz., 20 sq. in. This Vent Area is best for Car audio apps. This means a box Vb of 1.5 ft^3 + vent displacement per sub. (RL-p Twelve)
http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_premium_series_12_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html
If you can fit a single15 into this app, use this box for car apps. Two of these subs will need very large enclosures. Figure the minimum height/width for a box using this sub, will be about 18" H x 18" W x "Y" Deep = 2.5 Ft^3 + port(s) displacement.
Vented, 2.5 cu ft net, Tuned to 28 Hz, 30 sq. in. of Vent Area
http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_premium_series_15_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html
NOTE: The larger the port area used, the longer the port will be to reach proper Port Tuning Frequency target. (PTF) Am sure you can get some accurate input from Splinter on port designs for either sub option(s), in a given box design.
http://www.soundsplinter.com/contact_us.html
Swez
PS Nice subs and a very fair price for premium subs too. Let's see how well they respond to your porting questions.
anonymous_a on 11/14/2006 15:02:37
I came across a box design and I like the masurements.Why I chose this is because,I'm new to building ported enclosures and this is a very good detailed diagram on correct measurements,port calculations,and such.I was just wondering what is the cubic feet of this box and do you think I could use other subwoofer brands in it( like the two soundsplinter12s or the FI SSD 12s) other than Diamond audio as long as the enclosure specs match up to the sub?Also would I be able to change the tuning frequency from the recommended 30hz. to something elese?
http://www.diamondaudio.com/products/pdfs/Dual%2012%20in%20Vented%2005.pdf
P.S. I'm wainting on an email from Soundsplinter for the questions.Oh and what is the formula for calculating cubic feet?
swez on 11/14/2006 18:21:30
The overall box internal airspace, including ports is about 3.750 cf. Then we must subtract the ports, subs and bracing displacements to get Vb. (Vb is the sealed equivelent internal airspace the sub actually works in)
Vent Disp: 0.24 cf/pr.
Bracing Disp: ~0.1 cf
Sub Disp: 0.15 cf/sub (D9 series 12")
Vb = 1.875 - 0.12 - 0.5 - 0.15 = 1.105 ft^3/chamber
May be a tad off on net Vb as vent displacement is probably a bit larger than noted above, due to wall thickness variations in the vents.
To calculate overall, (external) cubic foot of a given enclosure, we simply use this formula: H" x W" x D''/1728
Example: 12" H x 12" W x 12" W = 1728in^3/1728 = 1.0 cf. (0.669 cf internal) Wood thickness is 3/4". (Or... 0.75")
To determine the internal airspace of a box, we have to subtract the wood thickness. I use this calculator to speed up the process:
Volume Calculator - Rectangular/Square Enclosures
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#rec
FYI: Note the 1.105 sealed air space, (Vb) of this Diamond enclosure. This is more like a High SPL box design that will produce strong lows near PTF.
For the Sound Splinter subs mentioned earlier, this box is too small to get the most low end performance from them or the Fi subs noted. Wait for your response from Soundsplinter on box parameters before diving in on your own OK?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/25/2006 13:12:25
It's been a week and after lots of debating and chatting with a couple company reps. I've decided to do two FI SSD12s.Swez, beings that I don't have a clue about ported box building I was wondering if you could help me design a box using that Diamond Audio box plan and changing the dimensions as necessary?Here's the links-
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=15456884b687b42/shopdata/0030_SSD/product_overview.shopscript
http://www.diamondaudio.com/products/pdfs/Dual%2012%20in%20Vented%2005.pdf
swez on 11/25/2006 13:21:58
This will be a very labor intensive process on both our parts Anon. I reserve this level of design and fabrication support for fee paying customers only.
If you wish, we can discuss the basics here, but as for drawings, cut lists and port design info, would need to go off-board and work out the details via e-mails and maybe online chats like YIM or SKYPE.
Swez
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16889
Replies (23)
swez on 11/11/2006 22:43:38
In this case, you'll only need the front channel RCA's off the HU.
That will feed into the Clarion EQ inputs and your F,R & S channels are all controlled by the EQ. This EQ has a Master volume, a Sub channel volume and F/R fader.
Here, you'll need a 4 channel amp for mid/highs to power your F & R speakers, and a sub amp. This EQ does all the work for you, when there are enough amp channels (5/6) to work with.
Comprehend all that?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/11/2006 22:52:05
Got it Swez. One more question though, will I still setup the features on the HU or should I leave them alone and control everything from the eq.?
swez on 11/12/2006 09:43:49
Since the HU is only a music signal source now, use the EQ features as much as possible.
Your HU will not be able to control rear and sub channels when using this EQ as noted. You will not have fade or sub control features in the HU available. Those menu selections can be disabled or left as default factory settings.
You can still use HU EQ, crossovers and balance controls off the HU. All other features are pretty much bypassed and now controlled by the EQ.
Swez
PS Which features are you concerned about losing in the HU?
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 11:16:03
Oh, I wasn't worried about losing any features I'm just new to equalizers and was wondering kinda how it worked. I wasn't too sure about the rca outputs on the head unit so I was just gonna go buy a new head unit with only one rca output. So when I want to turn the music volume up and down do I do it straight on the eq? I've decided to change my whole setup starting with adding one of these instead of a line driver or crossover.
swez on 11/12/2006 12:07:05
That EQ is both a Line Driver and EQ. You only need 1 pair of RCA's to feed the EQ. Your present HU can cover that just fine and the EQ controls (Master volume, Sub Volume, fader and EQ bands) are just there for fast adjustments on the fly. If the HU works well enough now, no need to replace it.
Here, there is no need to fart around with tedious HU menu selections once the EQ is tweaked properly with default HU settings. Yes, you can control volume with either the HU volume control or use the EQ's Master Volume if you wish.
FYI: It does take a little more time to set up all your gear properly when adding an EQ/LD to the list. However, the simplicity of use and adjusting EQ curves on the fly, are well worth the time.
Swez
PS I have installed a few Audiobahn AEQ6's already and found this product to be very easy to use and dial in. Your Clarion system is very similar in function and once installed, you'll love the added conveiniences.
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 14:00:42
Thanks swez.I was wondering if I could have your input on this matter while I have your attention, as to I have a hard time making decisions on car audio and there is so much to choose from.
I'm looking at subs and amps.Amp wise I wanna get something from online car stereo.They seem to have good enough prices,warranty and reputable. Sub wise I'm looking at Ascendant Audio,and FI Car Audio. These are the two companies I'm interested in through tons of research and reading. Budget wise is 500 for amp and 500-600 for subs.
I don't compete or anything I just want some deep bass you can feel in your chest and it makes you wanna turn it down but instead you turn it up.I don't really wanna upgrade the alt. but I'm not worried about that, if I have to I'll upgrade.6-8 cubes sealed or ported.
I just don't know what way to go Swez. Four 12"s sealed, one 18" ported, two 15"s ported.Here's some links
1 of these Q18"s- https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1545576e2a24007/shopdata/0020_Q/product_overview.shopscript
4 of these- http://www.ascendantaudio.com/assassin12specs.html
2 of these SSD 15"s- https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1545576e2a24007/shopdata/0030_SSD/product_overview.shopscript
2 of these- http://www.ascendantaudio.com/arsenal15specs.html
Victor on 11/12/2006 17:13:13
heard a few good things about the ascendant audio , u shud have a look at the Resonant Engineering as well as the Adire Audio line of subs.....
swez on 11/12/2006 18:01:42
I have not had a chance to review Ascendent Audio products to date, but from what I note in your links, you can go either way on the 12" Assassin series or a pair of Arsenals with very good results. Ported, both will give you very nice lows. Same with the Fi sub options.
I guess it really boils down to real estate you can provide in the install:
1. A set of 4 x 12's are 2.0 cf/sub. (~10.0 cf external here)
2. A pair of 15's is 3.5 cf/sub. (~ 8.5 cf external here)
3. A single Fi Q18 needs a huge ported box, but it's a bit more efficient too. This would be a great option for 60 Hz and lower. A 1200 watt RMS amp is plenty here and probably the most cost effective option as well. (Dual 1 ohm DVC here)
I also note low efficiency numbers for both of the AA subs. That's not a real problem. It just means a larger amp to power them properly. The Fi Q15's makes more sense, if you have the real estate for such large boxes.
Amp wise, looks like a 1 ohm stable amp, (~1500 watts RMS) is needed for either system. Or, using dual amps @ 2 ohms (~700 watts RMS/ea.) if you wish.
OK, it really depends on budget and space in your vehicle, which option is best. Frankly, a pair of Arsenals would be a very good choice if you really want to move some serious lows. The enclosure would be a tad smaller and one can always build dual boxes for ease of loading and drop to one box when extra cargo space is needed.
As I looked at the Fi Q15 series, that would probably be my overall best picks for a dual 15" system. They are pretty efficient, can handle plenty of RMS power and you can scale the enclosure and tuning frequency as needed. I also like the 1 or 2 ohm DVC option here.
Yes, these subs would like a larger amp... 2000 + watts RMS and depending on your listening habits, electrical upgrades would definitely be an added expense.
1. H.O. ALT (250-300 amperes)
2. Big 3 wiring upgrade kit
3. A strong Deep Cycle BAT (perhaps 2) when you really push them hard
Keep all that in mind as you plan your moves and also think about a strong Mid/High amp and speakers to keep up with your subs as well.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 19:20:01
Swez I appreciate your time bro.I'm just lookin for someone that has your knowledge of this, that is willing to kick around some ideas.There are so many products out there that I cannot make my mind up.Here's somemore info.
Wiring wise I'll have 0 gauge all the way around(big three, amp).Mids and hi's got it taken care of.Upgrading the battery I will do.Alternator I really don't want to but won't be a problem if I have to.Don't want to add another batt. it would be a huge p.i.t.a..
With info and current situation thus far,and subs mentioned, what would you do with a ......
Kicker zx1500.1
Kicker zx1000.1
The things I keep in back of my mind are with ported boxes they require less power to reach full potential,sealed built to spec you wanna match rms values,adding a more power or more cone area will get you a few db's(depending on how much more power and cone area).
The main thing is when it comes down to it I don;t know how to put all these meanings together to form the solution on what to buy.I did limit the amp range down to the two kicker's though.I guess I'm kinda gettin there.
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 20:30:58
Well after reading your recommendations over a few times and thinking.What about the kicker zx1000.1 and the Q18"? Since they are both rated for 1000 watts rms what type of box?I mean with ported that will be louder but at the same time it reduces power handling.
swez on 11/12/2006 20:54:15
The Kicker amps make a lot of sence when coupled with the Fi Q18 sub. The 1000.1 is enough power and you can go ported with this amp as it had am Infrasonic filter too.
I would probably want to contact Fi about more compact ported designs and see what they recommend. It would be nice if you could use say 5.0-6.0 cf, ported and tuned to about 30 Hz.
If you went this route, you may not need much more than a larger CCA rated BAT, depending on your listening habits. If you do note significant light dimming, it will only be at low engine RPM's and that can be remedied by a smaller diameter pully on your ALT. This will give the ALT more RPM at low idle speeds and kick up available output.
How much amping power is enough? When the sub is able to reach X-Max, you have enough power to make the sub work to its full capacity. Any more power than that, is often wasted on heat or can damage mechanicals of a given sub. We can tell when a sub has reached that point by listening and observing cone movement.
The main thing I try to stress in strong woofer performance, "KEEP THE AMP POWER CLEAN". A given sub that is rated at say 500 watts RMS, will be very happy to have an amp that can deliver clean power spikes that are well over 500 RMS.
On the other side of the coin, yes... a 300 watt amp can deliver well over 500 watts for short durations. However, the amp will be clipping badly at that point and this causes heat buildup in the sub coils.
A robust sub can handle10-25% clipping for short periods. However, it's when some dummy runs his cheepie sub and amp at very high distortion levels... (all the time) he fries the coils or the sub will seize up.
This is a learning process and we have helped thousands of readers over the years. Get in line, put on your thinking cap and get out your wallet... we'll help you with the rest OK?
No need to get a migrane over all this either. We've been down this path so often, I can do this in my sleep. All you need do is pay attention and don't abuse your gear. Take a few deep breaths and chill... we've got your backside covered.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/12/2006 21:26:39
I read some articles on their website and 6 cf. after all displacments would work for 2 15"s or 1 18".
As of now I got it narrowed down to the Kicker 1500.1 and the two 15s or the kicker 1000.1 and the single 18".The thing is on the 1500.1 could I just get away with a HO alt. and one optima yellow top under the hood or do you think I'll need 2 batts.?
swez on 11/13/2006 09:24:20
May not need the H.O. ALT here, but a strong BAT and Big 3 wiring for sure. Depends on the current rating of your present ALT.
Flexing panels and glass??? Oh yeah... if the vehicle seals well and does not leak a lot of air, either of these systems will flex them pretty good.
There is not a huge difference in SPL between 2x15's or a single 18. The Q18 is pretty high efficiency and a coupled with a ZX1000.1, this should be a very strong sub system. Going ported and using about 6 cf should be managable and still give great low bass and High SPL numbers.
It's really up to you here Anon. But frankly, the Q18/ZX1000.1 is gonna boom nice and save ya some cash too. You may not even need a H.O. ALT here, depending on your listening habits. Use the 1+1 DVC if you go with the Q18.
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/13/2006 12:54:29
See thats the type of stuff I can't put together when choosing equipment,"There is not a huge difference in SPL between 2x15's or a single 18".I'm not trying to squeeze every number out in a spl comp, I just wanna move some major air and flex.Like I said before I have no clue why but I love to see a car get hammered.Most people don't want panel flex,me I love it.Don't get me wrong I know trunk rattling is way annoying but I know how to control it so it doesn't just sound like crap.
swez on 11/13/2006 13:22:08
A lot of this depends on the subs used, enclosure, amp power, sub efficiencies, placement/aiming and acoustic coupling within the vehicle used.That's a lot of parameters to weigh and consider.
One thing I don't recall, what type of vehicle are you working with here? The internal dimensions of the space the sub/box will be set and location/aiming will also deternine what fits best in a given vehicle too.
Fill in that part next OK?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/13/2006 17:55:29
I don't have the car yet but most likely it will be a cavalier 95-00.However my current cars consist of, 1994 Pontiac Sunbird and 2001 Chevy Malibu.I've done some checking around and some measuring and the Sunbird has the same dimensions as the Cavaliers.Another interesting thing is the Malibu only has 2 more inches(depth wise) but the other dimensions are the same.
Box wise I plan on using the whole trunk which I figure is around 6-8 cubes of usable space.I don't plan on building the box until I actually have the car just to be sure.Plans I've been thinking of are making a rectangular box with sub(s) facing up and port facing rear bumper.I figure I can take out the backseat and slide it in.Port wise I wanna do more of a square port that faces the rear rather than a conventional slot or round port.
swez on 11/13/2006 22:07:33
OK, good that you mentioned a sedan as this may change your strategy a bit on sub choice and orientation.
In a sedan, up-firing subs toward the trunk lid usually nets very poor results. Why? When the sub cone is only 6-10" from a solid, reflective surface, (metal trunk lid) bass waves deflect off the truck lid and back to the sub cone. Results... terrible bass cancellations and poor sounding bass, until we oprn up the truck. (Gets much better now)
Now, mounting the sub box under the parcel shelf, firing to the rear of a sedan is MUCH better. Here, the bass waves have some space to propagate well. If the rear seat folds down, even better as we get more bass propagation into the cabin area of a sedan.
Also, a huge coffin enclosure eats up a lot of trunk space. This in turn, creates less airspace for bass waves to propagate and actually hinders net bass output. (Fine if you have a large SUV, Van or extended cab truck) But not in a sedan!!! Here, a 2-3cf enclosure makes much more sense.
In short, digest all this and strongly consider going to dual 12 or dual 15's that will fit under the rear deck and fire toward the rear bumper. Many very good subs out there today that can do a fine job in compact ported enclosures. Even a single strong 12 or 15 in a well designed enclosure will deliver excellent bass in a sedan.
Trust me on this one Anon... I would not allow you to spend all this time, money and effort and wind up very unhappy with the results.
Comments?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/14/2006 00:08:33
Well Swez I got some new insights.I know I'm tryin to squeeze 100lbs. of ____ (insert word of choice) into a 5lb. bag.It feels good not being pushed into buying stuff as to knowing the technicalities and net better results.I'm stoked about the 18 idea just something new I wanted to try,but I think I got some better ideas.As to checking out some rides like the kind I'm thinking about 2 15s would work facing the rear bumper.I guess on the second round of this I'll start with subs first then pick the amp.
It would be easy picking a good pair of subs but i want hand built subs that are tested through and through and backed with a good warranty and not something thats just thrown together on a assembly line or something and stamped with bogus numbers.
I'm coming from a single 12" sub.Don't get me wrong I know what single setups with correct power and box size can do.My single 12 slammed hard and it shocked everyone that heard it because they thought I had a few subs.It just wasn't moving the kind of air I wanted it to because it was only 12" of cone area.
Let me know what you think of either two of these 12s or two 15s
http://soundsplinter.com/rlp_premium_series_12_and_15_inch_subwoofer.html
swez on 11/14/2006 11:30:44
Yes, these subs are modeled with precision components and very accurate at high SPL levels too. (BL sq'd technololgy) This is becoming more common in high accuracy HT and car audio offerings from Resonant Engineering and used by Adire Audio too.
These subs are designed for linear and very flat response curves that demand excellent cone controll at high bass SPL.
If you can use dual 12's into this app, use this box for car apps. Two of these subs will need a medium-size enclosure(s). Figure the minimum height/width for a box using this sub, will be about 15" H x 15" W x "Y" Deep = 1.5 Ft^3 + port(s) displacement.
The Vented, 1.5 cu ft net, Tuned to 34 Hz., 20 sq. in. This Vent Area is best for Car audio apps. This means a box Vb of 1.5 ft^3 + vent displacement per sub. (RL-p Twelve)
http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_premium_series_12_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html
If you can fit a single15 into this app, use this box for car apps. Two of these subs will need very large enclosures. Figure the minimum height/width for a box using this sub, will be about 18" H x 18" W x "Y" Deep = 2.5 Ft^3 + port(s) displacement.
Vented, 2.5 cu ft net, Tuned to 28 Hz, 30 sq. in. of Vent Area
http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_premium_series_15_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html
NOTE: The larger the port area used, the longer the port will be to reach proper Port Tuning Frequency target. (PTF) Am sure you can get some accurate input from Splinter on port designs for either sub option(s), in a given box design.
http://www.soundsplinter.com/contact_us.html
Swez
PS Nice subs and a very fair price for premium subs too. Let's see how well they respond to your porting questions.
anonymous_a on 11/14/2006 15:02:37
I came across a box design and I like the masurements.Why I chose this is because,I'm new to building ported enclosures and this is a very good detailed diagram on correct measurements,port calculations,and such.I was just wondering what is the cubic feet of this box and do you think I could use other subwoofer brands in it( like the two soundsplinter12s or the FI SSD 12s) other than Diamond audio as long as the enclosure specs match up to the sub?Also would I be able to change the tuning frequency from the recommended 30hz. to something elese?
http://www.diamondaudio.com/products/pdfs/Dual%2012%20in%20Vented%2005.pdf
P.S. I'm wainting on an email from Soundsplinter for the questions.Oh and what is the formula for calculating cubic feet?
swez on 11/14/2006 18:21:30
The overall box internal airspace, including ports is about 3.750 cf. Then we must subtract the ports, subs and bracing displacements to get Vb. (Vb is the sealed equivelent internal airspace the sub actually works in)
Vent Disp: 0.24 cf/pr.
Bracing Disp: ~0.1 cf
Sub Disp: 0.15 cf/sub (D9 series 12")
Vb = 1.875 - 0.12 - 0.5 - 0.15 = 1.105 ft^3/chamber
May be a tad off on net Vb as vent displacement is probably a bit larger than noted above, due to wall thickness variations in the vents.
To calculate overall, (external) cubic foot of a given enclosure, we simply use this formula: H" x W" x D''/1728
Example: 12" H x 12" W x 12" W = 1728in^3/1728 = 1.0 cf. (0.669 cf internal) Wood thickness is 3/4". (Or... 0.75")
To determine the internal airspace of a box, we have to subtract the wood thickness. I use this calculator to speed up the process:
Volume Calculator - Rectangular/Square Enclosures
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#rec
FYI: Note the 1.105 sealed air space, (Vb) of this Diamond enclosure. This is more like a High SPL box design that will produce strong lows near PTF.
For the Sound Splinter subs mentioned earlier, this box is too small to get the most low end performance from them or the Fi subs noted. Wait for your response from Soundsplinter on box parameters before diving in on your own OK?
Swez
anonymous_a on 11/25/2006 13:12:25
It's been a week and after lots of debating and chatting with a couple company reps. I've decided to do two FI SSD12s.Swez, beings that I don't have a clue about ported box building I was wondering if you could help me design a box using that Diamond Audio box plan and changing the dimensions as necessary?Here's the links-
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=15456884b687b42/shopdata/0030_SSD/product_overview.shopscript
http://www.diamondaudio.com/products/pdfs/Dual%2012%20in%20Vented%2005.pdf
swez on 11/25/2006 13:21:58
This will be a very labor intensive process on both our parts Anon. I reserve this level of design and fabrication support for fee paying customers only.
If you wish, we can discuss the basics here, but as for drawings, cut lists and port design info, would need to go off-board and work out the details via e-mails and maybe online chats like YIM or SKYPE.
Swez
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