Currently i have a Pioneer CQ-C3333U and it kind of really sucks. It has no sub controls, cheap sub output voltage, I do not know what is the CD Bit DAC, and when i play the cd player and the bass is hitting hard, the cd player doesn't skip, but it cuts out ???? can anyone tell me anything about the cd bit dac and another question is i have a direct ipod connection, not just ear phone to rca jacks. Is it true that if i use the ipod connection it would only play at 1 bit dac??? because it doesn't sound bad but i have heard my system hit harder. Right now i am thinking about getting the Eclipse CD 5000, and it is a 16 or 24 bit dac don't really remember and it has 8 volt pre outs so thats actually really good and much better than my current deck. Has anyone else had problems with this panasonic deck or is there just something wrong??? sorry this is not a properly asked question, but im kind of in a rush. Thanks everyone.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ChYKLLwCX9y/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=features_and_specs&i=133C3333#Tab
Replies (23)
swez on 11/10/2006 20:38:43
DON'T BE IN A RUSH AT THIS STAGE OR YOU'LL PAY MORE LATER".
This is not a bad "Budget" HU. It does have pretty good features and options for such a low cost unit. The EQ system is pretty basic here, but usable.
If the CD player blanks out at high SPL levels, ain't gonna be very happy with this one, once you add that monster bass engine.
Bit rate converter: The higher the number, the better the fidelity we get from a DAC, Digital/Analog Converter. The Burr-Brown 24-bit DAC is considered the Gold Standard used by Nakamichi and other fine HU's presently.
The Eclipse CD5000 is a very nice HU. It's also very pricey. If you want all the flexibilty, soundshaping tools and other nice features, the Pioneer Premier series can do the same with a much lower price.
1. Pioneer DEH-P4800MP (Nice, low budget HU)
2. Pioneer DEH-P6800MP (Next step up and nice features too)
3. Pioneer DEH-P77DH (Probably your best fit in the dash)
The tricky part will be fitment issues for the 1.5 DIN dash mount in your truck. Am sure there are dash kits to make most 1.0 DIN units fit
this truck. Some careful research is needed to find the right kit, if you do that install part yourself. However, a Pro Installer can always do the HU install part for you and then you can do the rest.
Comments?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/11/2006 13:11:14
well that Eclipse cd5000 retails for about 600 but i can get it for around 400 brand new including shipping. out of those pioneers, each had their downside. the 4800 was only 2.2 v pre-out and only has 3 band eq... the 6800 also has 2.2 v pre-out and only 7 band eq, but the 7800 looks pretty good and the 9800 looks like a winner, but it only has a 1 bit DAC so thats not good. Whats the DAC on the 7800??? Well all i know is that the ECLIPSE CD5000 has an Advanced 24-bit DAC and 8V pre-out for about 400 bucks. Here is the link for the eclipse
http://www.eclipse-web.com/cd/cd5000.html
cplkittle on 11/11/2006 16:48:09
your attention to detail on the DAC specs is admirable, but to even be able to tell a difference, the rest of your stereo must be top of the line, and even then the only audible difference to the human ear would be with the car parked, engine off.
I may be preaching to the choir, you may have a $10,000 set up. I just don't want you wasting money on something you don't need or won't be able to enjoy due to a lack of quality somewhere within the system. one cheap component (even RCAs) could ruin the capabilities of an otherwise outstanding setup.
swez on 11/11/2006 19:37:58
What he said.... Word up!
Uhmmmm, if you look closely at the preout voltage specs for the Eclipse CD5000, note the RCA voltage is rated at 8 volts max output at 55 ohms impedence to your amp. Most car amps are more like 1,000 - 10,000 ohms impedence at the input stage. Hense, the higher the input impedence value, the lower the output voltage will be from the HU.
"Figures don't lie... but liers can figure". Don't let a less than honest marketing ploy sway you.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-I2fcg418e06/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=detailed_info&i=099CD5000#Tab
Hey, this is a very nice HU model and some very good features to be sure. If that is what you want and can afford the price tag, go for it.
If you are very keen on the 24 Bit DAC, this Pioneer has all that and more for under $350.00
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16654 ($309.00)
Pioneer Premier DEH-P780MP
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/12/2006 11:37:11
hey swez really good catch on that pre-out thing. so in reality about how many volts would that eclipse be? this pioneer is looking like the winner for now. im almost sure its the one...
swez on 11/12/2006 11:56:21
I really cannot say for sure if this formulae applies to the Eclipse HU, but if we double the resistance, (Impedence) power is cut in half. Like this:
8 volts @ 55 ohms
4 volts @ 110 ohms
2 volts @ 220 ohms
1 volt @ 440 ohms
0.5 volts @ 880 ohms
0.25 volts @ 1760 ohms etc.
This CD5000 HU may be fine for an Eclipse amp that is well matched to that HU series. However, if another amp brand is used and impedence matching is way off, you'll wind up adding a Line Driver between the HU and outbaord amp, to get adequate amp output and low signal to noise ratios.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/13/2006 01:33:46
wow i did not know any of that thanks for the knowledge :D
swez on 11/13/2006 09:28:27
Yeah, am working with another guy now on his Eclipse 2000 amp. It's very strong and really pounds out the bass too. But if I recall this right, that amp series has a very low gain ratio. (0.250 - 2.0 volts RCA inputs)
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/14/2006 00:36:19
so what exactly does that mean?
swez on 11/14/2006 10:39:45
Gain ratio matching is where we choose amps and HU's with similar or compatible input/output circuits. Some amps have very narrow gain ratios while others have pretty wide ratios.
Here's one idea: A look at 2 measuring cups
We have a small measuring cup. It takes 2 ounces to fill it. Adding more than 2 oz's of liquid, the cup runs over the edge. The cup has measuring hash marks on it. (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1.0, 1-1/4, 1-1/2, 1-3/4 & 2.0 ounces)
We have a 2nd cup. This is a measuring cup is bigger and goes up to 6 oz's. It also has the same hash marking, but it takes 6 oz's to fill it.
The smaller cup can handle any amount of contents up to 2 oz's, before it is over-filled. The larger cup can a larger amount of contents, but because it has many hash marks, we can accurately use it for lesser contents too. Are you with me so far?
Now, let's apply that to HU and amplifier scenarios below.
Application #1:
We have a HU that is rated at 2.0 volts output. That means its maximum clean output is 2.0 volts. (Substitute ounces for volts)
We have 2 amplifiers as well. One amp has a maximum capacity of 2.0 volts (Oz's) and the other can take 4.0 volts (Oz's) to fill it. Both amps have hash marks for reasonably accurate measuring. (Calibration)
Which amp is most suitable to the HU mentioned and why?
Answer this one now, and we'll go to the next option, once you have a clearer picture.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/14/2006 19:52:44
well since they both have very small hash marks, they will both be substantially equal. my first choice was to go with the 2 volt input amp, becasue it doesn't have to strain anymore to lean the power, but the larger one has small hash marks causing it to calibrate it so i say both can handle this HU equally well.
swez on 11/14/2006 22:41:48
That is correct and you have this one down pat.
Now for scenario #2:
Application #1:
We have a HU that is rated at 4.0 volts output. That means its maximum clean output is 4.0 volts. (Substitute ounces for volts)
We have the same amplifiers as well. One amp has a maximum capacity of 2.0 volts (Oz's) and the other can take 4.0 volts (Oz's) to fill it. Both amps have hash marks for reasonably accurate measuring. (Calibration)
Which amp is most suitable to this 4.0 volt HU scenario mentioned and why?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/16/2006 17:37:30
hey swez sorry it took me long to answer i've been really busy, but the answer for that question would be the 4 volt amplifier, because as you said you could have a cup that can handle 2 oz with accurate hash marks, but when you put 4 oz of water or whatever in it those extra 2 oz will drip out... The 4 volt amp however will make use of all that clean power and utilize it with no damage or safety shut off... I'm curious how many volts can my AX-2000 USAMP can take???? thanks in advance.
swez on 11/16/2006 19:25:09
You have got the concept! We use the gain control on a given amplifier to MATCH the HU output power it can safely deliver.
In summary:
1. A 2 volt HU is usable in practically all amping choices with no additional tools. (Just adjusting the gain to match the HU is needed)
2. If we have a 4 volt HU and a 2 volt amp, we use an attenuator circuit at times, to match the HU output, to the the amp input range.
As for the gain range on your AX-2000 amp, grab your manual and look up the specifications on the operating range of that specific amp. If you don't have that spec, contact Tech Support at US AMPS and get that detail from them OK?
http://www.usamps.com/ (Flash player 8.0 required)
Well done...
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/17/2006 19:47:54
oh ok this is starting to make sense. So lets say i have a 4 volt amp, but the HU has a max output of 2 volts do i put the gain on the amp at 50%. Thanks in advance.
swez on 11/17/2006 20:10:24
That is a Roger!
If there are hash marks on the gain control, consider them as a reference point. Few amps are marked exactly like a measuring cup would be, so you have to adjust and fine tune by ear or an AC voltmeter.
I think you have the concept down... now, teach your buddies.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/17/2006 20:40:50
alright, so lets say my Amplifier has 10 Volt of gain, and my HU is only 2.5 Volts out where should my gain be at right now?
swez on 11/17/2006 23:31:04
Very few amps I have looked at have much higher than 5-6 volts tops. However, some have selectable switches, (ranges) we can use to match HU gain output well.
Also, if the amp has a variable gain control, (Most do) we can use the HU. If not, we have 3 main choices:
1. Experiement with the amp gain and see if we can get accepable results by adjusting the amp gain
2. If that is not cutting the mustard, then we use a Line Driver between the HU and amp to bump up the HU's output to a usable range. (Enough to drive the amplifier to full potential)
3. If we don't want a Line Driver, we can use the speaker outputs of the HU to drive the amp. Most HU speaker outs can generate a solid 8 -10 volts worth of signal. That may be enough, depending on the amp/HU used.
FYI: Line Drivers are preamps that kick up the HU RCA voltage. They require power and have RCA in and outs along with some type of variable output adjustments. (Calibration pots or a Master Volume Control) Some come with active crossovers or EQ circuits too.
Does that suffice?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/18/2006 13:20:16
yes it does swez thank you very much. Ur the best
swez on 11/18/2006 13:30:20
You are most welcome and a very good student too Cec! CLAP
This is one of the most difficult parts of setting up a complex audio system. If one can get the gain setting correctly done, they can expect solid performance for just about any combination out there today.
"A teacher/mentor is only effective, when the student understands the concepts, applies them and gets the desired results."
I turned this one around for you a bit as I believed you had a pretty good handle on it. It was just done to show in your own words... YOU GOT the concept. HAPPY
Swez
PS If you get stuck, just ask for more assitance.
cecilio87 on 11/18/2006 14:50:37
Its good to have people that are very willing to help. When i get very knowledgeable at this i will be more than glad to do the same and help out most people with questions. Right now i know you are one of the top people on this forum, so it always seems like you're on top of every question. I can't really compete with the best YET haha but maybe soon. I will see you later.
swez on 11/18/2006 19:51:22
Well Cec, you have already learned a lot in the past few weeks. Keep up the efforts and apply whatever you learn and pass it on to others that come after you.
There's always room at the top of this board for more Golds. That can be your next goal, is you so desire. We have a few specialists and several generalists here now. Pick an area you are most interested in and run with it.
We don't often compete with each other here. This is a team effort. Each has his specialty and comes through with some clutch plays when others are stummped. But one thing I have noted over a long time, each player, (Gold or not) is growing and adding their skills by the week.
Your day will come and I'll be very pleased to present your name as a future Gold candidate, when the time comes. In the meantime, read, learn and contribute as you can. Just be your best, no matter what area you choose to focus on. That makes all the difference in the world!
Swez
PS To be sure, there are some things you do/know now, that would have me going... "Do what? How's that?... "I don't get it" So, in some ways, we all strive to be the best in one thing or another. Keep up the good work and ask plenty of questions when stuck OK? HAPPY
cecilio87 on 11/20/2006 13:44:28
Dont worry swez i will ask hundreds of questions lol. Thanks again
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ChYKLLwCX9y/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=features_and_specs&i=133C3333#Tab
Replies (23)
swez on 11/10/2006 20:38:43
DON'T BE IN A RUSH AT THIS STAGE OR YOU'LL PAY MORE LATER".
This is not a bad "Budget" HU. It does have pretty good features and options for such a low cost unit. The EQ system is pretty basic here, but usable.
If the CD player blanks out at high SPL levels, ain't gonna be very happy with this one, once you add that monster bass engine.
Bit rate converter: The higher the number, the better the fidelity we get from a DAC, Digital/Analog Converter. The Burr-Brown 24-bit DAC is considered the Gold Standard used by Nakamichi and other fine HU's presently.
The Eclipse CD5000 is a very nice HU. It's also very pricey. If you want all the flexibilty, soundshaping tools and other nice features, the Pioneer Premier series can do the same with a much lower price.
1. Pioneer DEH-P4800MP (Nice, low budget HU)
2. Pioneer DEH-P6800MP (Next step up and nice features too)
3. Pioneer DEH-P77DH (Probably your best fit in the dash)
The tricky part will be fitment issues for the 1.5 DIN dash mount in your truck. Am sure there are dash kits to make most 1.0 DIN units fit
this truck. Some careful research is needed to find the right kit, if you do that install part yourself. However, a Pro Installer can always do the HU install part for you and then you can do the rest.
Comments?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/11/2006 13:11:14
well that Eclipse cd5000 retails for about 600 but i can get it for around 400 brand new including shipping. out of those pioneers, each had their downside. the 4800 was only 2.2 v pre-out and only has 3 band eq... the 6800 also has 2.2 v pre-out and only 7 band eq, but the 7800 looks pretty good and the 9800 looks like a winner, but it only has a 1 bit DAC so thats not good. Whats the DAC on the 7800??? Well all i know is that the ECLIPSE CD5000 has an Advanced 24-bit DAC and 8V pre-out for about 400 bucks. Here is the link for the eclipse
http://www.eclipse-web.com/cd/cd5000.html
cplkittle on 11/11/2006 16:48:09
your attention to detail on the DAC specs is admirable, but to even be able to tell a difference, the rest of your stereo must be top of the line, and even then the only audible difference to the human ear would be with the car parked, engine off.
I may be preaching to the choir, you may have a $10,000 set up. I just don't want you wasting money on something you don't need or won't be able to enjoy due to a lack of quality somewhere within the system. one cheap component (even RCAs) could ruin the capabilities of an otherwise outstanding setup.
swez on 11/11/2006 19:37:58
What he said.... Word up!
Uhmmmm, if you look closely at the preout voltage specs for the Eclipse CD5000, note the RCA voltage is rated at 8 volts max output at 55 ohms impedence to your amp. Most car amps are more like 1,000 - 10,000 ohms impedence at the input stage. Hense, the higher the input impedence value, the lower the output voltage will be from the HU.
"Figures don't lie... but liers can figure". Don't let a less than honest marketing ploy sway you.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-I2fcg418e06/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&tab=detailed_info&i=099CD5000#Tab
Hey, this is a very nice HU model and some very good features to be sure. If that is what you want and can afford the price tag, go for it.
If you are very keen on the 24 Bit DAC, this Pioneer has all that and more for under $350.00
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16654 ($309.00)
Pioneer Premier DEH-P780MP
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/12/2006 11:37:11
hey swez really good catch on that pre-out thing. so in reality about how many volts would that eclipse be? this pioneer is looking like the winner for now. im almost sure its the one...
swez on 11/12/2006 11:56:21
I really cannot say for sure if this formulae applies to the Eclipse HU, but if we double the resistance, (Impedence) power is cut in half. Like this:
8 volts @ 55 ohms
4 volts @ 110 ohms
2 volts @ 220 ohms
1 volt @ 440 ohms
0.5 volts @ 880 ohms
0.25 volts @ 1760 ohms etc.
This CD5000 HU may be fine for an Eclipse amp that is well matched to that HU series. However, if another amp brand is used and impedence matching is way off, you'll wind up adding a Line Driver between the HU and outbaord amp, to get adequate amp output and low signal to noise ratios.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/13/2006 01:33:46
wow i did not know any of that thanks for the knowledge :D
swez on 11/13/2006 09:28:27
Yeah, am working with another guy now on his Eclipse 2000 amp. It's very strong and really pounds out the bass too. But if I recall this right, that amp series has a very low gain ratio. (0.250 - 2.0 volts RCA inputs)
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/14/2006 00:36:19
so what exactly does that mean?
swez on 11/14/2006 10:39:45
Gain ratio matching is where we choose amps and HU's with similar or compatible input/output circuits. Some amps have very narrow gain ratios while others have pretty wide ratios.
Here's one idea: A look at 2 measuring cups
We have a small measuring cup. It takes 2 ounces to fill it. Adding more than 2 oz's of liquid, the cup runs over the edge. The cup has measuring hash marks on it. (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1.0, 1-1/4, 1-1/2, 1-3/4 & 2.0 ounces)
We have a 2nd cup. This is a measuring cup is bigger and goes up to 6 oz's. It also has the same hash marking, but it takes 6 oz's to fill it.
The smaller cup can handle any amount of contents up to 2 oz's, before it is over-filled. The larger cup can a larger amount of contents, but because it has many hash marks, we can accurately use it for lesser contents too. Are you with me so far?
Now, let's apply that to HU and amplifier scenarios below.
Application #1:
We have a HU that is rated at 2.0 volts output. That means its maximum clean output is 2.0 volts. (Substitute ounces for volts)
We have 2 amplifiers as well. One amp has a maximum capacity of 2.0 volts (Oz's) and the other can take 4.0 volts (Oz's) to fill it. Both amps have hash marks for reasonably accurate measuring. (Calibration)
Which amp is most suitable to the HU mentioned and why?
Answer this one now, and we'll go to the next option, once you have a clearer picture.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/14/2006 19:52:44
well since they both have very small hash marks, they will both be substantially equal. my first choice was to go with the 2 volt input amp, becasue it doesn't have to strain anymore to lean the power, but the larger one has small hash marks causing it to calibrate it so i say both can handle this HU equally well.
swez on 11/14/2006 22:41:48
That is correct and you have this one down pat.
Now for scenario #2:
Application #1:
We have a HU that is rated at 4.0 volts output. That means its maximum clean output is 4.0 volts. (Substitute ounces for volts)
We have the same amplifiers as well. One amp has a maximum capacity of 2.0 volts (Oz's) and the other can take 4.0 volts (Oz's) to fill it. Both amps have hash marks for reasonably accurate measuring. (Calibration)
Which amp is most suitable to this 4.0 volt HU scenario mentioned and why?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/16/2006 17:37:30
hey swez sorry it took me long to answer i've been really busy, but the answer for that question would be the 4 volt amplifier, because as you said you could have a cup that can handle 2 oz with accurate hash marks, but when you put 4 oz of water or whatever in it those extra 2 oz will drip out... The 4 volt amp however will make use of all that clean power and utilize it with no damage or safety shut off... I'm curious how many volts can my AX-2000 USAMP can take???? thanks in advance.
swez on 11/16/2006 19:25:09
You have got the concept! We use the gain control on a given amplifier to MATCH the HU output power it can safely deliver.
In summary:
1. A 2 volt HU is usable in practically all amping choices with no additional tools. (Just adjusting the gain to match the HU is needed)
2. If we have a 4 volt HU and a 2 volt amp, we use an attenuator circuit at times, to match the HU output, to the the amp input range.
As for the gain range on your AX-2000 amp, grab your manual and look up the specifications on the operating range of that specific amp. If you don't have that spec, contact Tech Support at US AMPS and get that detail from them OK?
http://www.usamps.com/ (Flash player 8.0 required)
Well done...
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/17/2006 19:47:54
oh ok this is starting to make sense. So lets say i have a 4 volt amp, but the HU has a max output of 2 volts do i put the gain on the amp at 50%. Thanks in advance.
swez on 11/17/2006 20:10:24
That is a Roger!
If there are hash marks on the gain control, consider them as a reference point. Few amps are marked exactly like a measuring cup would be, so you have to adjust and fine tune by ear or an AC voltmeter.
I think you have the concept down... now, teach your buddies.
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/17/2006 20:40:50
alright, so lets say my Amplifier has 10 Volt of gain, and my HU is only 2.5 Volts out where should my gain be at right now?
swez on 11/17/2006 23:31:04
Very few amps I have looked at have much higher than 5-6 volts tops. However, some have selectable switches, (ranges) we can use to match HU gain output well.
Also, if the amp has a variable gain control, (Most do) we can use the HU. If not, we have 3 main choices:
1. Experiement with the amp gain and see if we can get accepable results by adjusting the amp gain
2. If that is not cutting the mustard, then we use a Line Driver between the HU and amp to bump up the HU's output to a usable range. (Enough to drive the amplifier to full potential)
3. If we don't want a Line Driver, we can use the speaker outputs of the HU to drive the amp. Most HU speaker outs can generate a solid 8 -10 volts worth of signal. That may be enough, depending on the amp/HU used.
FYI: Line Drivers are preamps that kick up the HU RCA voltage. They require power and have RCA in and outs along with some type of variable output adjustments. (Calibration pots or a Master Volume Control) Some come with active crossovers or EQ circuits too.
Does that suffice?
Swez
cecilio87 on 11/18/2006 13:20:16
yes it does swez thank you very much. Ur the best
swez on 11/18/2006 13:30:20
You are most welcome and a very good student too Cec! CLAP
This is one of the most difficult parts of setting up a complex audio system. If one can get the gain setting correctly done, they can expect solid performance for just about any combination out there today.
"A teacher/mentor is only effective, when the student understands the concepts, applies them and gets the desired results."
I turned this one around for you a bit as I believed you had a pretty good handle on it. It was just done to show in your own words... YOU GOT the concept. HAPPY
Swez
PS If you get stuck, just ask for more assitance.
cecilio87 on 11/18/2006 14:50:37
Its good to have people that are very willing to help. When i get very knowledgeable at this i will be more than glad to do the same and help out most people with questions. Right now i know you are one of the top people on this forum, so it always seems like you're on top of every question. I can't really compete with the best YET haha but maybe soon. I will see you later.
swez on 11/18/2006 19:51:22
Well Cec, you have already learned a lot in the past few weeks. Keep up the efforts and apply whatever you learn and pass it on to others that come after you.
There's always room at the top of this board for more Golds. That can be your next goal, is you so desire. We have a few specialists and several generalists here now. Pick an area you are most interested in and run with it.
We don't often compete with each other here. This is a team effort. Each has his specialty and comes through with some clutch plays when others are stummped. But one thing I have noted over a long time, each player, (Gold or not) is growing and adding their skills by the week.
Your day will come and I'll be very pleased to present your name as a future Gold candidate, when the time comes. In the meantime, read, learn and contribute as you can. Just be your best, no matter what area you choose to focus on. That makes all the difference in the world!
Swez
PS To be sure, there are some things you do/know now, that would have me going... "Do what? How's that?... "I don't get it" So, in some ways, we all strive to be the best in one thing or another. Keep up the good work and ask plenty of questions when stuck OK? HAPPY
cecilio87 on 11/20/2006 13:44:28
Dont worry swez i will ask hundreds of questions lol. Thanks again
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