Hey guys, had a real hum-dinger troubleshooting job tonight. I'll give you the symtoms and some details and you guys try to figure out what went wrong OK?
Presenting issues: !997/98 Ford Taurus
1. Turn on HU w/o subs and mid/highs sounded OK
2. Add subs to mix and sounded like the subs were just farting out bass (very weak bass at that and heavy distortion too)
3. Bass was very weak, intermittent and amp would go into protect as well
Here's what he had:
1. A pair of DUAL 12" SVC subs, 8 ohm SVC's, (Sealed box, 1.0cf/chamber ) Not bad sounding subs either. (after I finished my work)
2. A SoundStorm 2 channel amp, bridged MONO (30 A fuse) Not a bad little amp either, for such a low budget product.
3. Sub were wired for net 4 ohms to bridged amp (This was sorta done correctly done previously by another guy) But he took a few very bad shortcuts. (part of the problem)
4. Not sure what HU was installed, but that part did its job fine.
OK... why would the subs sound so weak, very distorted and amp would shut off and go into protect mode often?
Hint: I worked on his system for about 90 minutes and got everything working very well after much re-wiring on amp and subs.
Alright fellas... where to start and what to look for that would cause the initial problems. How did I manage to get some pretty decent bass from this low budget setup when done? Throw out some ideas and then I'll give you the remedies that solved this situation.
Swez
Replies (19)
ttocs on 11/8/2006 23:40:42
are you sure they are in phase? Disconnect one just to see what happens...
MrBrownstone on 11/8/2006 23:51:18
A lot of times, the subs are incorrectly labeled +/- directly on the sub!!! try running wires again. This time, do them one at a time as the sub(s) may have been damaged.
Also, soundstorm is a boss/pyramid clone...so don't expect much. After that, we'll have to see if it's actually just a defective (or damaged amp)...but I'm going with phase right now. That's usually the #1 cause.
Victor on 11/8/2006 23:53:18
if u already solved it.. GRIN
cecilio87 on 11/9/2006 02:41:27
Well you said the guy took alot of bad shortcuts, so the farting sound could sound like a short or a really really bad ground. You keep mentioning the HU, so im guessing the HU had an internal bad ground. I faced a similar problem with my HU. i mean without subs the mids and highs were really nice and crisp and would never fart. But when subs come into the mix, as soon as i messed with anything electrical like power-windows while the subs were on, the amp and the subs would spike causing loud thuds even when volume is at zero. since its an internal ground on the pre outs, it doesn't really affect the mids and highs directly unless they are with an amp. since ground is bad on the pre outs, any voltage change will affect sub output. so am i close or not even. because if i am then there it is, if not then i will try some other trouble shooting methods.
cecilio87 on 11/9/2006 02:46:02
in addition to my previous response, you have to put an external ground on the HU or get a new one. the amp would go into protect mode because it was not recieving 12 volts properly. The amp would try to produce the bass with what little power was being recieved from signal, but all it sends is a really distorted signal. Im guessing it might have taken you longer because you probably knew it was a ground problem, but you thought it might have been an RCA that was malfunctioned and put a loop isolater. so there is my response i hope im right ;) lol because if not im probably sounding like an idiot.
swez on 11/9/2006 08:06:05
Ttocs, subs were in phase.
B, Subs and amp performed well after I finished working on them. This little amp delivers about 250 RMS when bridged, @ 4 ohms. Pretty clean too, once all the mistakes were corrected and controls were dialed in properly.
Victor, You did read the whole thing didn't ya? Someone's paying attention here!
Cec, HU ground was adequate and did not need to touch that at all. The RCA's were of decent quality and did their job too. Mids and highs were fine with or w/o subs. You are correct about problems with the power feed line connections. They were very shabby connections and lots of fray wires were were present on power, ground and sub wiring to amp. (At the under hood fuse and amp connections as well)
So far, Cec is the only one remotely close to the root problems I found. The root problems were only obvious when I looked closely (Visual inspection) and took things apart.
The root problems and remedies center around the lack of good wiring and connection methods. All wiring (previously done) was in the correct location and configured properly. However, the quality of his wiring work was extremely ghetto. (Ie: No crimp connection or soldering were used.
Round 2: OK, dig deeper fellas... (Again, amp and subs were adequate and produced good results when I finished) What turned a marginal set of products into a decent sounding "low budget" rig?
Hint: It's all install quality related stuff. The gear delivered good results, but the install methods are at the root of this scenario. (You won't believe how a few simple careless connections, made all the difference)
Swez
Victor on 11/9/2006 09:05:14
when the basics go wrong,,,, a lot goes wrong....dont dig deeper, try looking at simpler mistakes on the surface which are easily over looked.... THINK
swez on 11/9/2006 11:37:57
Victor, does your butt ever get "real sore" from sitting on that fence post and making/taking no position on either side of that fence?
You'd make a good politician pal.... GRIN
Swez
PS In one sense, you are spot on.... dealing with the obvious is always a good place to start. However, in this case, there were several issues found, that were not so obvious until I pulled the subs out for closer inpection. (Ie: speaker and termination wires were not soldered or had crimp connectors on them either.)
The wires were just wrapped around the sub and connector terminals. No tape, no solder, no crimp connectors here...... BIG CLUE HUH? And oh, the internal sub wires were good quality #12 wire. However, the amp to termination blocks was #16 gage wires too.
See a better picture of this mess now? Get off the fence before you get a major case of hemroids OK? LOL This is so funny huh? You won't believe the answers when I am ready to unwrap this scenario.
swez on 11/9/2006 16:44:17
Look for the posted results on Friday!
Swez
UKinstaller on 11/9/2006 23:55:03
voice coils wired improperly??
-UK
Victor on 11/10/2006 02:46:22
loose ends...............................
ttocs on 11/10/2006 02:57:54
could he have left 12 ft of wire in the box, causing it to hit the speaker when it moves? Try moving the speaker by hand and see if you can feel it slapping anything, better yet take it out and look.
swez on 11/10/2006 06:52:34
Better take it all apart and start all over... Here's what I found when I did so.
AMP: Removed power line under the hood @ fuse
1. Power & ground wires were badly frayed out. (Looked like a bad 70's afro doo) Removed them, cut fresh ends, stripped to 1/4" and reinstalled w/o any frays.
2. Speaker wires were also stripped off too long and + terminal frays were touching amp case and shorting out amp. (Protect issues)
3. Removed subs and noted the speaker wires were not soldered or crimped to termination points. (Just stripped and wrapped around speaker lugs and same on speaker termination cups) Installed fresh #12 wires, soldered all connections, reinstalled subs and tested them independently and then together. (The sub amp in my shop, showed these subs to be very capable)
4. Hooked up power line to fuse, adjusted gain, LPF and used just a little bass boost and Viola, things cleaned right up and no protect mode issues.
Summary: This cheap amp and sub kit sounded pretty decent when work was completed. It was dark and after 9:00 PM when we wrapped things up. So, did not put a meter on it all to check voltage output. Best guess, about 200-250 RMS into 4 ohm load w/ amp bridged MONO.
In a nutshell, the wiring job was totally ghetto!!! Sloppy workmanship was the root cause of all these problems. The gear used was very low budget stuff as noted earlier. However, when all wiring problems observed were cleaned up and amp was dialed in properly, this cheap ghetto rig actually sounded pretty good.
Take Away: As we frequently help others here and cannot see the workmanship quality of the install, a few minor wiring mishaps may indeed be the main reason for poor results. In this case, a number of minor wiriing mistakes, rendered a decent low budget system useless and on the brink of blowing the amp.
Comments: Even low budget gear can deliver good results, when the install work is done correctly. The subs and amp performed well, once all the mishaps were cleaned up.
There ya go gentleman, case closed!
Swez
Victor on 11/10/2006 07:52:49
Wow... what a quizmaster u are swez.....GRIN
swez on 11/10/2006 11:22:14
Thank You Mr. Fence Pole sitter! SMILE
Swez COFFEE
cplkittle on 11/11/2006 00:41:14
Comments: Even low budget gear can deliver good results, when the install work is done correctly.
......for about a week.
The one thing I have noticed is that people working on a low budget want the same results as their rich friend's $4,000 audio/video setup. Most have the mentality that "I only paid $30 for these two subs, so if they blow I haven't lost anything" or worse they come back to your shop and throw a hissy fit about how you sold them defective equiptment. I have been lucky, the two shops I have worked at only carried higher end products.
I do agree though, and it took me awhile to explain this to my boss. He was amazed by the sound of a lightning audio / soundstorm setup, and was ready to buy a full line of their products, but as I predicted they guy came back in less than 2 weeks with a fried amp and blown sub.
The clarity is there, and the overall performance is nice. The biggest difference compared to high dollar products is product life and resistance to abuse.
swez on 11/11/2006 09:03:31
I could not agree more Kit... this original install was full of abused "rules of engagement". I never saw such a hack install job before. But the amp survived!
However, the protect circuits in this Sound Storm amp worked well enough, even with the speaker outs grounded to the casing, it still worked well after cleaning up the original mess.
I set the gain, boost and LPF up fairly conservatively and if the guy does not monkey with it, will be interesting to see how long it lasts. I don't know how old the amp is, but it looked as though it had been through a few good battles already.
As we both know, there's a lot of "ignorant slobs" doing install work out there. This car was chock full of blunders and shabby workmanship. (Audio gear wise)
With all the blunders I fixed on this job, one cannot help but wonder
how many guys come here with similar work habits and try to whack and hack their way through an install too??? Guess we can gage that by the number of times they come back with problems later huh?
Swez
raulbustos on 11/11/2006 10:17:08
i may not know every thing about car audio but i do know a thing or too about getting riped off. after paying some moron good money to do a hack instal and ended up blowing my amp i decided i would learn how to instal and learn as much as i could about the equipment. since then i have had quiet a few people come to me where the only problem was a veery poor instal now i live in a smal town there is no shops here that sell car audio well walmart dose but its crap in my book any way there is verry little in a profesinal around here that i know of i think there is like 4 guys around that do car audio 3 of them from what i see do okay work they tend to leave the wires exposed where you can see them but the conections are all made rite now one of them is a total crok he sells brands that nobody has herd of for a hefty price and worst off he dose the worst insalls ever ive see people that dont know a thing about c/a do beter instals this guy needs a good wirestriper a scewdriver and a drill. have you ever seen some one run the power wire on top of the fender and then down the front of the door. and frayed wires every where. and it is because of people like this that i allways try to help every one that comes my way with knowledge. once again thanks to all you at CK who help so much!
swez on 11/11/2006 10:54:37
You must be talking about the same dude that installed this kids gear. He had the same work habits and ran the power line through the fender well and door jamb too... LOL
Yeah, a real hack job was noted as I poked about in this one. I didn't bother to look deeper into the HU and other things as the car is about to be sold and this kid was poorer than dirt too.
A very funny thing happened as the car owner and I were doing some clean up. I handed him my best wire strippers, a razor knife and some #12 plenum type cable for his sub to amp wiring. I then went to work on the power cables and such.
When he finished his part, I looked at his wire stripping and noted he badly gouged the conductor insulation when removing the outer jackets. All 4 had to be done all over again. Sheezzz... I could have done better with a dull pocket knife.
I pointed all this out to him and then showed him the right way to work with this type of cabling. D'oh!
BTW, in my early days, I too was guilty of sloppy workmanship. However, after joining CK, getting very involved in this site from all angles, now there are very few slip-shod things that get past a well trained pair of eyes and hands. We often learn best by watching skilled people do quality work. The good thing about that, once one learns the right stuff, they can easily show others and/or make some side cash too.
Personally, I don't think I would ever want to work in a fast paced install shop. (For peanuts) I work very methodically and at a pace that pretty much avoids slip-shod errors and compromises. Quality workmanship cannot be rushed. Yes, by doing 2-4 installs a day, one gets faster and still can maintain high quality standards. But, I'd rather take my time, do an expert job and pocket $300-500 for a job well done.
So far, no returns, equipment failures or any bad reports have come back to haunt the client or myself. Believe me, that means a lot and worth an few extra hours of free labor. It's well worth the extra effort and have 100% satisfaction and watch the WOW factor take affect on the customers face, when we run a demo test and final tweaks. ;-)
In a nutshell, do it well; do it right and you'll get plenty of side jobs from referrals too. Guys are very willing to shell out a few Benjiman's to the installer when they have invested a few $,$$$ in components, amps and such.
Swez
Presenting issues: !997/98 Ford Taurus
1. Turn on HU w/o subs and mid/highs sounded OK
2. Add subs to mix and sounded like the subs were just farting out bass (very weak bass at that and heavy distortion too)
3. Bass was very weak, intermittent and amp would go into protect as well
Here's what he had:
1. A pair of DUAL 12" SVC subs, 8 ohm SVC's, (Sealed box, 1.0cf/chamber ) Not bad sounding subs either. (after I finished my work)
2. A SoundStorm 2 channel amp, bridged MONO (30 A fuse) Not a bad little amp either, for such a low budget product.
3. Sub were wired for net 4 ohms to bridged amp (This was sorta done correctly done previously by another guy) But he took a few very bad shortcuts. (part of the problem)
4. Not sure what HU was installed, but that part did its job fine.
OK... why would the subs sound so weak, very distorted and amp would shut off and go into protect mode often?
Hint: I worked on his system for about 90 minutes and got everything working very well after much re-wiring on amp and subs.
Alright fellas... where to start and what to look for that would cause the initial problems. How did I manage to get some pretty decent bass from this low budget setup when done? Throw out some ideas and then I'll give you the remedies that solved this situation.
Swez
Replies (19)
ttocs on 11/8/2006 23:40:42
are you sure they are in phase? Disconnect one just to see what happens...
MrBrownstone on 11/8/2006 23:51:18
A lot of times, the subs are incorrectly labeled +/- directly on the sub!!! try running wires again. This time, do them one at a time as the sub(s) may have been damaged.
Also, soundstorm is a boss/pyramid clone...so don't expect much. After that, we'll have to see if it's actually just a defective (or damaged amp)...but I'm going with phase right now. That's usually the #1 cause.
Victor on 11/8/2006 23:53:18
if u already solved it.. GRIN
cecilio87 on 11/9/2006 02:41:27
Well you said the guy took alot of bad shortcuts, so the farting sound could sound like a short or a really really bad ground. You keep mentioning the HU, so im guessing the HU had an internal bad ground. I faced a similar problem with my HU. i mean without subs the mids and highs were really nice and crisp and would never fart. But when subs come into the mix, as soon as i messed with anything electrical like power-windows while the subs were on, the amp and the subs would spike causing loud thuds even when volume is at zero. since its an internal ground on the pre outs, it doesn't really affect the mids and highs directly unless they are with an amp. since ground is bad on the pre outs, any voltage change will affect sub output. so am i close or not even. because if i am then there it is, if not then i will try some other trouble shooting methods.
cecilio87 on 11/9/2006 02:46:02
in addition to my previous response, you have to put an external ground on the HU or get a new one. the amp would go into protect mode because it was not recieving 12 volts properly. The amp would try to produce the bass with what little power was being recieved from signal, but all it sends is a really distorted signal. Im guessing it might have taken you longer because you probably knew it was a ground problem, but you thought it might have been an RCA that was malfunctioned and put a loop isolater. so there is my response i hope im right ;) lol because if not im probably sounding like an idiot.
swez on 11/9/2006 08:06:05
Ttocs, subs were in phase.
B, Subs and amp performed well after I finished working on them. This little amp delivers about 250 RMS when bridged, @ 4 ohms. Pretty clean too, once all the mistakes were corrected and controls were dialed in properly.
Victor, You did read the whole thing didn't ya? Someone's paying attention here!
Cec, HU ground was adequate and did not need to touch that at all. The RCA's were of decent quality and did their job too. Mids and highs were fine with or w/o subs. You are correct about problems with the power feed line connections. They were very shabby connections and lots of fray wires were were present on power, ground and sub wiring to amp. (At the under hood fuse and amp connections as well)
So far, Cec is the only one remotely close to the root problems I found. The root problems were only obvious when I looked closely (Visual inspection) and took things apart.
The root problems and remedies center around the lack of good wiring and connection methods. All wiring (previously done) was in the correct location and configured properly. However, the quality of his wiring work was extremely ghetto. (Ie: No crimp connection or soldering were used.
Round 2: OK, dig deeper fellas... (Again, amp and subs were adequate and produced good results when I finished) What turned a marginal set of products into a decent sounding "low budget" rig?
Hint: It's all install quality related stuff. The gear delivered good results, but the install methods are at the root of this scenario. (You won't believe how a few simple careless connections, made all the difference)
Swez
Victor on 11/9/2006 09:05:14
when the basics go wrong,,,, a lot goes wrong....dont dig deeper, try looking at simpler mistakes on the surface which are easily over looked.... THINK
swez on 11/9/2006 11:37:57
Victor, does your butt ever get "real sore" from sitting on that fence post and making/taking no position on either side of that fence?
You'd make a good politician pal.... GRIN
Swez
PS In one sense, you are spot on.... dealing with the obvious is always a good place to start. However, in this case, there were several issues found, that were not so obvious until I pulled the subs out for closer inpection. (Ie: speaker and termination wires were not soldered or had crimp connectors on them either.)
The wires were just wrapped around the sub and connector terminals. No tape, no solder, no crimp connectors here...... BIG CLUE HUH? And oh, the internal sub wires were good quality #12 wire. However, the amp to termination blocks was #16 gage wires too.
See a better picture of this mess now? Get off the fence before you get a major case of hemroids OK? LOL This is so funny huh? You won't believe the answers when I am ready to unwrap this scenario.
swez on 11/9/2006 16:44:17
Look for the posted results on Friday!
Swez
UKinstaller on 11/9/2006 23:55:03
voice coils wired improperly??
-UK
Victor on 11/10/2006 02:46:22
loose ends...............................
ttocs on 11/10/2006 02:57:54
could he have left 12 ft of wire in the box, causing it to hit the speaker when it moves? Try moving the speaker by hand and see if you can feel it slapping anything, better yet take it out and look.
swez on 11/10/2006 06:52:34
Better take it all apart and start all over... Here's what I found when I did so.
AMP: Removed power line under the hood @ fuse
1. Power & ground wires were badly frayed out. (Looked like a bad 70's afro doo) Removed them, cut fresh ends, stripped to 1/4" and reinstalled w/o any frays.
2. Speaker wires were also stripped off too long and + terminal frays were touching amp case and shorting out amp. (Protect issues)
3. Removed subs and noted the speaker wires were not soldered or crimped to termination points. (Just stripped and wrapped around speaker lugs and same on speaker termination cups) Installed fresh #12 wires, soldered all connections, reinstalled subs and tested them independently and then together. (The sub amp in my shop, showed these subs to be very capable)
4. Hooked up power line to fuse, adjusted gain, LPF and used just a little bass boost and Viola, things cleaned right up and no protect mode issues.
Summary: This cheap amp and sub kit sounded pretty decent when work was completed. It was dark and after 9:00 PM when we wrapped things up. So, did not put a meter on it all to check voltage output. Best guess, about 200-250 RMS into 4 ohm load w/ amp bridged MONO.
In a nutshell, the wiring job was totally ghetto!!! Sloppy workmanship was the root cause of all these problems. The gear used was very low budget stuff as noted earlier. However, when all wiring problems observed were cleaned up and amp was dialed in properly, this cheap ghetto rig actually sounded pretty good.
Take Away: As we frequently help others here and cannot see the workmanship quality of the install, a few minor wiring mishaps may indeed be the main reason for poor results. In this case, a number of minor wiriing mistakes, rendered a decent low budget system useless and on the brink of blowing the amp.
Comments: Even low budget gear can deliver good results, when the install work is done correctly. The subs and amp performed well, once all the mishaps were cleaned up.
There ya go gentleman, case closed!
Swez
Victor on 11/10/2006 07:52:49
Wow... what a quizmaster u are swez.....GRIN
swez on 11/10/2006 11:22:14
Thank You Mr. Fence Pole sitter! SMILE
Swez COFFEE
cplkittle on 11/11/2006 00:41:14
Comments: Even low budget gear can deliver good results, when the install work is done correctly.
......for about a week.
The one thing I have noticed is that people working on a low budget want the same results as their rich friend's $4,000 audio/video setup. Most have the mentality that "I only paid $30 for these two subs, so if they blow I haven't lost anything" or worse they come back to your shop and throw a hissy fit about how you sold them defective equiptment. I have been lucky, the two shops I have worked at only carried higher end products.
I do agree though, and it took me awhile to explain this to my boss. He was amazed by the sound of a lightning audio / soundstorm setup, and was ready to buy a full line of their products, but as I predicted they guy came back in less than 2 weeks with a fried amp and blown sub.
The clarity is there, and the overall performance is nice. The biggest difference compared to high dollar products is product life and resistance to abuse.
swez on 11/11/2006 09:03:31
I could not agree more Kit... this original install was full of abused "rules of engagement". I never saw such a hack install job before. But the amp survived!
However, the protect circuits in this Sound Storm amp worked well enough, even with the speaker outs grounded to the casing, it still worked well after cleaning up the original mess.
I set the gain, boost and LPF up fairly conservatively and if the guy does not monkey with it, will be interesting to see how long it lasts. I don't know how old the amp is, but it looked as though it had been through a few good battles already.
As we both know, there's a lot of "ignorant slobs" doing install work out there. This car was chock full of blunders and shabby workmanship. (Audio gear wise)
With all the blunders I fixed on this job, one cannot help but wonder
how many guys come here with similar work habits and try to whack and hack their way through an install too??? Guess we can gage that by the number of times they come back with problems later huh?
Swez
raulbustos on 11/11/2006 10:17:08
i may not know every thing about car audio but i do know a thing or too about getting riped off. after paying some moron good money to do a hack instal and ended up blowing my amp i decided i would learn how to instal and learn as much as i could about the equipment. since then i have had quiet a few people come to me where the only problem was a veery poor instal now i live in a smal town there is no shops here that sell car audio well walmart dose but its crap in my book any way there is verry little in a profesinal around here that i know of i think there is like 4 guys around that do car audio 3 of them from what i see do okay work they tend to leave the wires exposed where you can see them but the conections are all made rite now one of them is a total crok he sells brands that nobody has herd of for a hefty price and worst off he dose the worst insalls ever ive see people that dont know a thing about c/a do beter instals this guy needs a good wirestriper a scewdriver and a drill. have you ever seen some one run the power wire on top of the fender and then down the front of the door. and frayed wires every where. and it is because of people like this that i allways try to help every one that comes my way with knowledge. once again thanks to all you at CK who help so much!
swez on 11/11/2006 10:54:37
You must be talking about the same dude that installed this kids gear. He had the same work habits and ran the power line through the fender well and door jamb too... LOL
Yeah, a real hack job was noted as I poked about in this one. I didn't bother to look deeper into the HU and other things as the car is about to be sold and this kid was poorer than dirt too.
A very funny thing happened as the car owner and I were doing some clean up. I handed him my best wire strippers, a razor knife and some #12 plenum type cable for his sub to amp wiring. I then went to work on the power cables and such.
When he finished his part, I looked at his wire stripping and noted he badly gouged the conductor insulation when removing the outer jackets. All 4 had to be done all over again. Sheezzz... I could have done better with a dull pocket knife.
I pointed all this out to him and then showed him the right way to work with this type of cabling. D'oh!
BTW, in my early days, I too was guilty of sloppy workmanship. However, after joining CK, getting very involved in this site from all angles, now there are very few slip-shod things that get past a well trained pair of eyes and hands. We often learn best by watching skilled people do quality work. The good thing about that, once one learns the right stuff, they can easily show others and/or make some side cash too.
Personally, I don't think I would ever want to work in a fast paced install shop. (For peanuts) I work very methodically and at a pace that pretty much avoids slip-shod errors and compromises. Quality workmanship cannot be rushed. Yes, by doing 2-4 installs a day, one gets faster and still can maintain high quality standards. But, I'd rather take my time, do an expert job and pocket $300-500 for a job well done.
So far, no returns, equipment failures or any bad reports have come back to haunt the client or myself. Believe me, that means a lot and worth an few extra hours of free labor. It's well worth the extra effort and have 100% satisfaction and watch the WOW factor take affect on the customers face, when we run a demo test and final tweaks. ;-)
In a nutshell, do it well; do it right and you'll get plenty of side jobs from referrals too. Guys are very willing to shell out a few Benjiman's to the installer when they have invested a few $,$$$ in components, amps and such.
Swez
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