Hi,
All
I have think of all the things that I am not sure of in Car Audio, and decide to place them in this forum.
I not know if some of these stuff are mension in recent forums, but here they are.
Bass ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What can I do, to get the most of my sub in a ported box?
I mean what is the most effective bass frequency, what frequence to tune my box to also the best placment of the sub (facing front, side or back)
Does the type back seat affect the sound?
Mids and Highs +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What is the best placement and direction, to place the speakers, (backdash, front doors)
What type of enclosure? (seal, ported or open air)
Matching +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How to match the bass with the mid and highs, What I mean when you head out to buy stuff for example, and you get a 1000rms sub and the right amp to run it, is there anyway to know what to buy for mids?
Thanks
Regards
b_bass59
Replies (4)
Ash on 10/30/2006 20:13:55
Lot of questions there guy! Though I'm sure others will have different opinions, a lot will rest upon what sounds good to you.
Since everyone's hearing differs to some degree, there are no hard rules to a install in driver placement nor frequency. Different genres will call for different tunings and enclosures as well. As for placement, it is best that you experiment through temporary means to "audition" the best location for the vehicle. Each one is different and slight changes can make a big difference.
Perhaps, if your more specific about the type of music you mostly listen to, we could cut through all the uncessary stuff.
"Matching": depends upon what your tastes are but, in general it is usual to have about two to three times the power of your mids running to your subs. For instance: 60 rms per side for mids matched with about 300 rms to sub(s) is a good start for everyday driving. The latter will depend upon sub type and enclosure.
Before going with an "all out" 1000 "megawatt" setup, just remember that it takes a extremely large increase in power just to get a few extra db's. Sticking to a reasonable amount of power used efficiently will attain almost just as good results without electrical strain.
I know that was quite vague, but there is so much involved that it is best to be more specific to a persons tastes than try to shoot for a all around setup.
swez on 10/30/2006 23:10:11
Ash said it well... it's all about a given person's tastes and preferences. If one is looking to replicate the quality of sound and balance we see in a studio grade mix, there are many variables that need to be looked at.
If another person is really into Bass SPL and not else matters, this is more about brute amping power, efficient subs, enclosure choices and vehicle acoustical resonance properties. This too, requires a good deal of trial and error.
Many are in the middle of these extremes. They want strong Bass when desired, but well balanced Mids and Highs to keep up with a strong bass engine. The Mid/High choices, power and placement all come into play here. Factory locations for most car speakers is little more than an after-thought and placement is whatever is available, once the rest of the car is designed. Fortunately, this "Old School" thinking is being revised and addressed by many car makers now.
FYI: High SPL apps (Above 110dB) are very difficult (if not Impossible) to manage in a confined space. Once we get into a limited space with lots of power available, one cannot accurately tune as we cannot find a good balance point. Our senses get overloaded at this point and one cannot accurately detect and adjust all variables with any degree of acquity.
Our perception of the details is lost and we cannot do a good job with the mixing process. Best to do these at low SPL levels (~85dB) and then test our initial results with a few more dB added and listen for the new results. Chances are very good, we'll get a better mix at low SPL levels first. Then, put a "little pepper" on it and listen for the details.
Say more about your specific audio targets and we'll try to address each one as needed OK?
swez
b_bass59 on 10/31/2006 15:18:11
Thanks Guys,
I really want a well balance system, of Bass, Mods and Highs.
Ash
Quote
"For instance: 60 rms per side for mids matched with about 300 rms to sub(s) is a good start for everyday driving. The latter will depend upon sub type and enclosure. "
I don't quite understand the 60rms per side, how many side you mean 4 or two.
Thanks
Regards
swez on 10/31/2006 17:52:01
We can look at this in several ways. Instead of wattage and power numbers, we can also look at clean SPL from each speaker in the mix.
For a solid SQL type daily driver, let's say we target clean SPL from any given speaker placement:
1. Front speakers: (Mids/Highs) Front Stage
This is our bread & butter part of the system. Here, we target efficient speakers, well balanced drivers and a solid crossover. To get a solid 110dB of clean SPL and minimal clipping, we use efficient speakers, (say +90dB @ 1 watt/1 meter) 80-100 watts RMS and yes, we can use 2 or 4 ohm sets as desired.
Here, placement is the key element for above average staging presents and good L/R imaging characteristics. Stock door speakers are OK for midbass and mids. However, they do crossfire and tend to cancel out a lot below about 250 Hz. If we can eliminate or minimize crossfiring cancellations by angling door speakers upward and offset angles, we get a lot better overall results.
The tweeters tend to sound best when we elevate them to the dash or "A" pillars. Here, it's good to try several positions before we make a final mounting choice. Some like the tweeters firing at or just below the rear view mirror.
Others will prefer kick panel mounts and angle them upward toward the driver's right shoulder. (Aim for the center dome light and adjust for best imaging)
The typical door mount is generally a compromise at best. If this is your best option, avoid beaming the tweeters right at the driver and passenger's heads. Here, an angled apporach will often work best. Try firing them at belly/chest levels and aimed inward toward the front seats. This limits direct radiation "beaming" issues and we can get pretty good results.
Rear Speakers: (Rear fill, Midbass or full range) Rear Stage
Some like only Midbass in the rear stage. Others prefer full range. Neither is good or bad. (Just a personal preference)
Here, the rear deck is often elevated and speakers fire into the rear window and bounce into the front of the vehicle. We want to blend blend the Rear Stage here. These speakers tend to be notably louder with less amping power too. Some attenuation of the rear amp channels, will provide good F/R mixing and balance.
In door mounted speakers, we often run into the same issues as noted in the front doors. Again, avoiding the direct "Crossfire effect" works well. We also see a tendency to use more power to get this stage up to snuff. Midbass is not as pronounced as we often get in the rear deck application. However, if we use sealed pods for the MB drivers and don't crossfire them into each other, very good results can be had in this manner.
We can use 2 or 4 ohm drivers here too. The SPL will be about -6dB below the front stage in many cases, but easliy managed via the fader, amp gains or passive attenuators. Most will find a SPL range of 100 - 105dB as a very good match for the front stage speakers.
Bass Engine: (Subs)
This is totally up to the preferences of the owner. A clean bass engine will deliver a solid +120dB of bass with an efficient sub, well matched box and a modest bass amp. (~300 RMS)
Here, cabin gain effects, (transfer function) of a given vehicle can really add more bass w/o a huge amp and several subs. A large SUV or similar vehicle can give us about +12/15dB more bass w/o adding large power amps and lots of subs.
Hatchbacks can also provide a nice kick in bass SPL too. Here, a +9/12dB kicker is often the case, when the rear seats are folded down.
Trunk mounted subs are hard to work with and get the punchy bass some like. Larger trucks are great for deep bass boominess like in Rap and R&B. Not much upper bass here though, unless we cut a pass through hole from the truck to the interior cabin.
In a pickup truck system, use up or down firing subs when possible. Since PU trucks tend to have smaller cabin space and a high roof, upfiring subs make a lot of sense.
The most difficult trucks to get good bass from, are small format trucks like a 2 door, bench seat truck like the S-10, Ranger series and Dodge Dakota's. Here, small subs can do wonders when they can be mounted in up-firing orientations. Using a pair of strong 8" woofers is often a very good choice here. There's not a lot of stowage room in these vehicles, so custom sub enclosures are the norm.
Does this info help at all?
swez
All
I have think of all the things that I am not sure of in Car Audio, and decide to place them in this forum.
I not know if some of these stuff are mension in recent forums, but here they are.
Bass ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What can I do, to get the most of my sub in a ported box?
I mean what is the most effective bass frequency, what frequence to tune my box to also the best placment of the sub (facing front, side or back)
Does the type back seat affect the sound?
Mids and Highs +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What is the best placement and direction, to place the speakers, (backdash, front doors)
What type of enclosure? (seal, ported or open air)
Matching +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How to match the bass with the mid and highs, What I mean when you head out to buy stuff for example, and you get a 1000rms sub and the right amp to run it, is there anyway to know what to buy for mids?
Thanks
Regards
b_bass59
Replies (4)
Ash on 10/30/2006 20:13:55
Lot of questions there guy! Though I'm sure others will have different opinions, a lot will rest upon what sounds good to you.
Since everyone's hearing differs to some degree, there are no hard rules to a install in driver placement nor frequency. Different genres will call for different tunings and enclosures as well. As for placement, it is best that you experiment through temporary means to "audition" the best location for the vehicle. Each one is different and slight changes can make a big difference.
Perhaps, if your more specific about the type of music you mostly listen to, we could cut through all the uncessary stuff.
"Matching": depends upon what your tastes are but, in general it is usual to have about two to three times the power of your mids running to your subs. For instance: 60 rms per side for mids matched with about 300 rms to sub(s) is a good start for everyday driving. The latter will depend upon sub type and enclosure.
Before going with an "all out" 1000 "megawatt" setup, just remember that it takes a extremely large increase in power just to get a few extra db's. Sticking to a reasonable amount of power used efficiently will attain almost just as good results without electrical strain.
I know that was quite vague, but there is so much involved that it is best to be more specific to a persons tastes than try to shoot for a all around setup.
swez on 10/30/2006 23:10:11
Ash said it well... it's all about a given person's tastes and preferences. If one is looking to replicate the quality of sound and balance we see in a studio grade mix, there are many variables that need to be looked at.
If another person is really into Bass SPL and not else matters, this is more about brute amping power, efficient subs, enclosure choices and vehicle acoustical resonance properties. This too, requires a good deal of trial and error.
Many are in the middle of these extremes. They want strong Bass when desired, but well balanced Mids and Highs to keep up with a strong bass engine. The Mid/High choices, power and placement all come into play here. Factory locations for most car speakers is little more than an after-thought and placement is whatever is available, once the rest of the car is designed. Fortunately, this "Old School" thinking is being revised and addressed by many car makers now.
FYI: High SPL apps (Above 110dB) are very difficult (if not Impossible) to manage in a confined space. Once we get into a limited space with lots of power available, one cannot accurately tune as we cannot find a good balance point. Our senses get overloaded at this point and one cannot accurately detect and adjust all variables with any degree of acquity.
Our perception of the details is lost and we cannot do a good job with the mixing process. Best to do these at low SPL levels (~85dB) and then test our initial results with a few more dB added and listen for the new results. Chances are very good, we'll get a better mix at low SPL levels first. Then, put a "little pepper" on it and listen for the details.
Say more about your specific audio targets and we'll try to address each one as needed OK?
swez
b_bass59 on 10/31/2006 15:18:11
Thanks Guys,
I really want a well balance system, of Bass, Mods and Highs.
Ash
Quote
"For instance: 60 rms per side for mids matched with about 300 rms to sub(s) is a good start for everyday driving. The latter will depend upon sub type and enclosure. "
I don't quite understand the 60rms per side, how many side you mean 4 or two.
Thanks
Regards
swez on 10/31/2006 17:52:01
We can look at this in several ways. Instead of wattage and power numbers, we can also look at clean SPL from each speaker in the mix.
For a solid SQL type daily driver, let's say we target clean SPL from any given speaker placement:
1. Front speakers: (Mids/Highs) Front Stage
This is our bread & butter part of the system. Here, we target efficient speakers, well balanced drivers and a solid crossover. To get a solid 110dB of clean SPL and minimal clipping, we use efficient speakers, (say +90dB @ 1 watt/1 meter) 80-100 watts RMS and yes, we can use 2 or 4 ohm sets as desired.
Here, placement is the key element for above average staging presents and good L/R imaging characteristics. Stock door speakers are OK for midbass and mids. However, they do crossfire and tend to cancel out a lot below about 250 Hz. If we can eliminate or minimize crossfiring cancellations by angling door speakers upward and offset angles, we get a lot better overall results.
The tweeters tend to sound best when we elevate them to the dash or "A" pillars. Here, it's good to try several positions before we make a final mounting choice. Some like the tweeters firing at or just below the rear view mirror.
Others will prefer kick panel mounts and angle them upward toward the driver's right shoulder. (Aim for the center dome light and adjust for best imaging)
The typical door mount is generally a compromise at best. If this is your best option, avoid beaming the tweeters right at the driver and passenger's heads. Here, an angled apporach will often work best. Try firing them at belly/chest levels and aimed inward toward the front seats. This limits direct radiation "beaming" issues and we can get pretty good results.
Rear Speakers: (Rear fill, Midbass or full range) Rear Stage
Some like only Midbass in the rear stage. Others prefer full range. Neither is good or bad. (Just a personal preference)
Here, the rear deck is often elevated and speakers fire into the rear window and bounce into the front of the vehicle. We want to blend blend the Rear Stage here. These speakers tend to be notably louder with less amping power too. Some attenuation of the rear amp channels, will provide good F/R mixing and balance.
In door mounted speakers, we often run into the same issues as noted in the front doors. Again, avoiding the direct "Crossfire effect" works well. We also see a tendency to use more power to get this stage up to snuff. Midbass is not as pronounced as we often get in the rear deck application. However, if we use sealed pods for the MB drivers and don't crossfire them into each other, very good results can be had in this manner.
We can use 2 or 4 ohm drivers here too. The SPL will be about -6dB below the front stage in many cases, but easliy managed via the fader, amp gains or passive attenuators. Most will find a SPL range of 100 - 105dB as a very good match for the front stage speakers.
Bass Engine: (Subs)
This is totally up to the preferences of the owner. A clean bass engine will deliver a solid +120dB of bass with an efficient sub, well matched box and a modest bass amp. (~300 RMS)
Here, cabin gain effects, (transfer function) of a given vehicle can really add more bass w/o a huge amp and several subs. A large SUV or similar vehicle can give us about +12/15dB more bass w/o adding large power amps and lots of subs.
Hatchbacks can also provide a nice kick in bass SPL too. Here, a +9/12dB kicker is often the case, when the rear seats are folded down.
Trunk mounted subs are hard to work with and get the punchy bass some like. Larger trucks are great for deep bass boominess like in Rap and R&B. Not much upper bass here though, unless we cut a pass through hole from the truck to the interior cabin.
In a pickup truck system, use up or down firing subs when possible. Since PU trucks tend to have smaller cabin space and a high roof, upfiring subs make a lot of sense.
The most difficult trucks to get good bass from, are small format trucks like a 2 door, bench seat truck like the S-10, Ranger series and Dodge Dakota's. Here, small subs can do wonders when they can be mounted in up-firing orientations. Using a pair of strong 8" woofers is often a very good choice here. There's not a lot of stowage room in these vehicles, so custom sub enclosures are the norm.
Does this info help at all?
swez
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