OK GUYS.. HERES THE THING..
I GOT 2 KICKER CVR 12'S DUAL 4OHM VOICE COILS 400RMS EACH!
I NEED AN AMP 4 THEM..
IM CONSIDERIN A SOUNDSTREAM PCA1000D DATS A 1000RMS CLASS D MONO AMP!
IS DAT GOOD? TOO MUCH POWER? OR TOO LITTLE?
GIVE ME UR OPINIONS.. AND RECOMMENDATIONS..
RIGHT NOW IM USING A 2CH AUDIOFONICS 1500W PEAK @ 2OHMS STEREO ON THEM DERE CONNECTED IN STEREO EACH SPEAKER WIRED 2OHM 4 MAX POWER BUT I DONT THINK DERE PERFORMING AT DERE BEST! CUZ I HAD A LAME AUDIOPIPE 4OHM 375RMS SVC 12" B4 CONNECTED 2 A PIONEER 800W MAX @ 2OHM MONO AMP DAT SOUNDED ALMOST THE SAME..
COULD IT BE THE BOXES MY KICKERS ARE IN? I BUILT THEM MYSELF 2 THE SPEAKERS SPL 2.25 CU FT SPECS. WEL NOT EXACTLY.. I DID SOME MODIFICATION TO THE SHAPE 4 THEM 2 FIT IN MY TRUNK. THE SAME CU FT THOUGH.. BUT THE SPEC PORTS ARE RECTANGULAR 3" X 12.5" X 20" LENGHT SO I HAD 2 BEND THEM AT 90DEGREES 4 IT 2 FIT IN THE NEW SHAPE. COULD THAT BE THE PROBLEM?
Replies (12)
swez on 10/19/2006 20:52:52
Why are you shouting Mark?
Caps = shouting or "pay attention" emphasis only.
OK, back to business...
Your Kicker Comp VR's are dual 12's and 4+4 DVC's right. Your wiring options here are net 2 ohms per sub for a 2 channel amp, Or 1 ohm when wired full parallel, or 4 ohms in series/parallel.
To get the most power into them, a solid Class D that can deliver 1000 watts RMS @ 1 ohm loads, would be a good option. The SoundStream PCA1000D will meet that demand well. (good choice BTW)
As for your sub enclosure needs, the larger vented SPL box is 2.5 ft^3 per chamber, + port displacement. Also, the power ratings per sub are now only 300 watt RMS. (larger box = lower power handling ability)
The port displacement you have now, is 750in^3/1728 = 0.43 ft^3/vent) So, your internal sub dimensions would be 2.5 ft^3 + 0.43 = 2.93 ft^3 per chamber. Pretty large box for the pair huh? That 90 degree bend is correct for your port, as long as you keep a 3" space from the back & side walls of the box. (That's how it's done) We need to maintain a 3.0" vent width, the entire length of the vent !!!
If this is what you have now and plan to stick with these subs, you can easily run a smaller/cheaper amp here. Something along the lines of 600 - 800 watts RMS @ 1 ohm, would be very adequate and not damage your subs. However, you will need an Infrasonic/Subsonic filter to protect your subs too.
See page 9 of this file for details and filter needs: 25 Hz., -24dB/octave filter slope. (Tha't a very steep slope and this kind of filter will be expensive too) However, there are cheaper options that shuold protect your subs w/o all that expense. We can discuss that, once you find an amp you like.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/206/2065C10VR4.PDF
Comments?
swez COFFEE
markz on 10/19/2006 22:24:07
wont the subsonic filter on th amp do?
swez on 10/20/2006 08:24:57
Yes, this amp (PCA1000D) has a very good filter.
Just be aware that these subs will take less power in that enclosure size mentioned. (~300 RMS/sub) That makes this amp pretty strong and plenty of dynamic headroom for very clean bass peaks when amp gain is set to deliver ~600 watt RMS @ 1 ohm.
Here, your amp output should be set for a nominal of 24.5 volts AC with HU volume at 80%, and 0dB reference tones. (30 - 80 Hz.)
Got all that?
swez
PS Nice choice on the sub amp!
markz on 10/20/2006 10:25:36
yea thanks i taught its a gr8 amp 2!
so abt this box see i used this design cuz according to the manual it supposed 2 give the most output. so would a smaller box with more power handling be better output wise.. or does this design give me more although it sacrifices some power handling?
also u think this system would be able to take on other 12's in the same or with moderately greater power handling eg. 400- 500rms per speaker and have a good chance at coming out on top in a competition?
swez on 10/20/2006 19:33:35
Yeah, it's a strong setup and you'll have to be careful about how much power the subs can actually take in such a large box. But, that's a typical Kicker sub too. All their SPL box designs follow this game plan.
Frankly, go with the plans you have for now, if you already have the subs on hand. However, if you get tired of them and wish to switch over to an SQL system later, just read some other posts here and get a few ideas for the next install. There are a lot of very good subs out there today. It's not difficult to find a pair of 12's that can handle 500 RMS/sub and give you a net 1 ohm load too.
That amp is a keeper and you can build off that for just about anything you'll want to do later.
swez
markz on 10/20/2006 21:08:17
ok thanks 4 the info on the subs..
wel now that i've covered my sub issues.. hear the rest of my plans an tel me how much sence it makes and maybe how i can improve them..
remember that 2ch audiofonics 1500W amp i said i had b4 wel i also own the 800w version of it.
I have 4 pheonix gold octane R 6" 4ohm 70w rms 140w peak components 2 on the front doors and 2 on the back dash. i fried the tweets 4 them so im usin 2 RELY cheap precision audio mini dome tweets on the front doors they sound rely good though! and 2 legacy 300w bullets in the back. dats my high mids n' tweets dere..
for mid bass im using 2 eminence beta 8" 225w 8ohm speakers also on the back dash.
so heres the install..
im plannin 2 connect the 4 components n' tweets all in parallel dats 2 per ch 2ohm stereo load, to the 800w amp and the 2 eminemce 8" to the 1500w.
i tried connectin everything on the 2ch 1500w amp but when i connect the components in parallel they were getting really HOT! and when i add the 8" speakers in parallel the load goes below 2ohm stereo thats not good either rite?
so i tried something else which in theory would work! i connected the components 2 per ch in series and then connected the 8" in parallel this worked! the components werent gettin hot and the load wasnt below 2ohm. BUT in series the components werent as loud and not performin as they should.
thats why i brought the 2ch 800W into the mix! and thats where my new install plan comes from. so does this plan make sense? or should i try something different?
also later on im plannin 2 get 2 more 8" of the same specs better quality though CAIRE made in italy. dont kno if u've heard of it. IF NOT CHECK IT OUT! excellent midrange stuff! almost twice the price of my first pair though.. and 2 selineum 300w 4ohm horn drivers.
im gonna build 2 monitors wit this new stuff 2 put on my hood mainly for extra outside mids for car shows etc. definately not 4 everyday use unless i want to loose my hearing! lol.
im gonna connect this new stuff in parallel 2 my existing 1500W amp which would already have the other 2 8" connected which would bring this amp down to 2ohm stereo load also!
YOURE THE PRO.. DOES ALL OF THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
comments? criticisms? suggestions? plz..
swez on 10/20/2006 23:13:54
Do you have links to the amps mentioned and specs? If yes, I'd like to review all this and synthesize things to a point where I can offer some contructive integration plans.
In very general terms, I tend to load the front stage with well powered Comps of the best quality one can manage in the budget. This is what we hear the most and accuracy and detail are generally the goal here... We want out best Mid/Highs up front and adequately power and filtered.
As for the rear stage aspects, this is rear full and intended to compliment what's going on in the front stage part of a system. Depending on preferences, we can look at full range Comps, Coaxials or just Midbass. It's mostly a preference to any given listener. More on this as time permits.
Also, a well balanced bass engin will fill in the gaps we cannot get from small format speakers. What we have discussed so far is right on track. (The Kicker subs are a good start, but there are better options to consider if desired) Again, the PCA1000D is a keeper.
Finally, we have to consider power management and insure all amps are getting adequate voltage from the ALT/BAT side of the power supply. This Class D amp will easily grab 50-80 amperes of peak current when it's pushed hard.
Class A/B (full range) amps are very ineffecient with power. For every 100 watts they put out, they consume about 160 watts to deliver it. Keep that in mind when using 2 or 3 full range, stereo amps. Basically, we add up all the fuses in each amp to be used and make sure there is enough reserve power available for not just the amps, but also to keep the car running properly.
Again, just planting a few seeds for you to chew on for now. The specific details can come into the mix later.
Amp links please?
swez
PS Are you familiar with Tri-mode wiring schemes? This can be a very useful option for your MB drivers. However, your main speakers cannot go below 4 ohms and the MB drivers are usually best at 4-8 ohms too. If you need more info on Tri-mode configurations, I'll pass you a link on that later OK?
markz on 10/21/2006 11:01:31
Hey well i did some digging and couldn't find any one link dat gave me all the info so i put together my own specs on these audiofonics amps..
The 800w 2ch ADF-240
max power @ 2ohm- 400x2 (800w)
RMS power @ 2ohm- 150x2
THD @ 2ohm- 0.3%
RMS power @ 4ohm- 100x2
THD@ 4ohm- 0.1%
Bridged power (rms)- 300w
channel seperation- 55dB
freq response 1.0dB- 15Hz-30kHz
hpf- 40Hz- 250kHz
lpf- 40Hz- 250kHz
bass boost- 0, 18dB (non variable)
adj sensivity- 0.2- 6v
input impedance(low level)- 10K Ohms
Fuse- 15Ax2
The 1500w 2ch ADF-243
max power @ 2ohm- 750x2 (1500w)
RMS power @ 2ohm- 300x2
THD @ 2ohm- 0.3%
RMS power @ 4ohm- 200x2
THD@ 4ohm- 0.1%
Bridged power (rms)- 600w
channel seperation- 55dB
freq response 1.0dB- 15Hz-30kHz
hpf- 40Hz- 1kHz
lpf- 30Hz- 500kHz
bass boost- 0- 18dB (variable)
ssf- 10Hz- 100kHz
adj sensivity- 0.2- 6v
input impedance(low level)- 10K Ohms
Fuse- 40Ax2
in addition i found that these amps are both digital amps.
hope this info helps.
also im not really clear on tri wiring. plz explain..
swez on 10/21/2006 14:08:30
Those are both very strong amps and judging by the fuses noted, they are going to demand a lot of attention to detail and some likely electrical upgrades. (H.O. ALT, Big 3 wiring and a stout battery or perhaps a few)
It all depends on how much these amps are pushed, will determine the level of electrical upgrades needed to keep them up to snuff and well supplied. The good news is, you have plenty of clean RMS power to feed any speakers used. The down side here, power drain with all 3 amps will be substantial. (Depending on how hard you push them)
If either of these amps are used to power your PG Octane speakers, the tweeters will be the first to go when too much power is thrown at them. You can probably order replacement tweeters for them as the crossovers match specifically to the tweets that came with this kit originally. Should not be too expensive. The key is knowing the power handling and frequency cutoff range used by the crossover design.
FYI: We can use inline fuses to protect expensive speakers from damage due to excess power input. These can be installed near the amplifiers and in series with the + wires that feed out from the amp used. This fuse will blow if the amp sends too much power to a given speaker and protect your crossovers, mids and tweets too. Cheap insurance here bro!
You mentioned the speakers are PG Octanes, rated at 70 RMS/ side right? OK, the safe bet is a 4 amp fuse for each speaker kit. That's not a standard automotive fuse value huh? However, a 5A fuse is standard will allow ~100 watts RMS power to flow, before it blows. Hummm, let's see what we can find that works? Ahhhh, found something that will be very helpful here:
Fuse:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=071-345
Fuse holder:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=071-345
Problem solved! Get extra fuses too. If you are blowing them regularly, too much power from the amp used. Need to dial back on the amp gains to prevent this.
OK, on to Tri-mode amplifier configurations. Here's a good link to read on that method. Most 2/4 channel amps can handle this method. The key is to avoid low ohmic loads to any given channels off the amp used. Here, 4 ohm speakers (min) are used for each and the net ohmic load is 2 ohms per channel. Keep that in mind as you consider this option.
http://www.bcae1.com/trimode.htm
Now, pay attention to the details on this one and also follow the link to a very detailed notation about tri-mode use. If using Midbass drivers, it is best to use at minimum, a passive low pass filter (Cap or Cap and Coil network) on the MB drivers. Here, we want to pass all frequencies between say 80 - 300 Hz., to the MB speakers. The amp HPF is set to 80 Hz. The values of Cap/Cap coil to use, are based on MB speaker impedence and filtering frequency.
Read this link carefully and study the methodology used. If you feel confident and understand the concepts well, then we can look at what filter components are correct for doing this well the first time.
swez
PS This gets pretty deep. Don't be surprised if you have to review this stuff several times before the picture comes into clear focus. Until then, DO NOTHING but study it, mull it over and then we can chat more about how to do this if you like the plan.
PSS I did find a link to your amps: Hummm, pretty solid specs on paper for sure. It would be great if they had .pdf files on all their products to share. Specs can be manipulated, depending on how an amp is tested and therefore rated. Hype is cheap and prevasive in mobile audio gear. I tend to look deeper for the details and what makes them tick.
http://www.audiofonics.com/amplifiers.html
swez on 10/21/2006 15:36:16
Mark, (Warning... shameless business plug)
I also offer one-on-one, fee-based consulting for such advanced installs. It's a loose contract and a "gentleman's agreement" type thing. My clients only pay for the time and knowledge I provide. They ask for what is needed, I provide solutions and tech support. If you wish to obtain that level of services, let me know and I'll fill you in on the specifics.
Have been doing freebies here at CK, for over 8 years. Now, am semi-retired and this is a good way to guide others, but take things to a much deeper level. It's not overly expensive and the more you already know, (and can manage w/o help) the less one pays for the things they need help on key points.
Actually, this service is very comprehensive and depending on your skills and present knowledge base, it could save you a lot of guess work and so forth. It's best when the client has a good background in 12 volts systems already and has done a few good installs.
Have noted it to be very challenging to work with the absolute novice and newbies in this manner. (I avoid those scenarios) We often have a big language gap to work out, and if they make a mistake or misinterpret specifics, that can be a costly error we all want to avoid. The best candidates, have a good grasp of the flow, limits and can communicate/interpret technical issues well and most important... follow specific directions.
Your call there Mark... just realize that my clients get much more than they actually pay for. This is just "fun monies" and a level of support some guys really need and appreciate. (I'll never get rich at this... but that's not the goal. Helping others reach their goals are JOB #1)
A good Professional Consultant, always looks for the most time/cost effective ways to serve a clients' needs. That's what I am putting on the table for you to consider.
What say you?
swez
markz on 10/22/2006 11:52:00
yo swez dats an interesting offer dat i might take u up on later on.. cuz im plannin rite now 2 go into the audio install business pretty soon.. so when i start makin some money from this u could be my consultant 4 those bigger or complex installs. but 4 rite now im jus an 18yr old kid who's lookin 4 a lil info 2 broaden my knowledge on a few key things im not clear on and pick up a few tricks along the way. ya know..
And plus i dont even hav me a credit card yet! which kinda makes it impossible 2 pay u.. lol. so if u wana help me out 4 now i'd appreciate it! or if not wel up 2 u..
But i'd stil lik 2 find out bout dat consultancy for when im ready sometime later on... thanks..
swez on 10/22/2006 19:52:25
I took ya for several years older there Mark... but yes, it's an as needed type deal and can be set aside for now as you still have much to learn before I can do your the most good.
Guys who have been into tech stuff awhile, (are by far) the ideal clients. They know some of the ropes and terminology already, equate prior learned knowledge to their new project and grasp new ideas quickly too. A newbie does not have the wide knowledge base of a 25-30 year old. So, it takes more time to bring one up to speed. That's what we do well at CK.
Am not setup for CC's & Paypal yet, but may look at paypal as a future option. We do cash, check and barter most of the time anyway.
Since you are now 18, if you have some steady employment, go to a bank, open up an account and request a debit card too. This is the first step in managing money. With a debit card, it gives us the ability to purchase goods and services like a Credit Card, but deducted like as if you wrote a check. A few years of getting this right and you will be ready for your first credit card. (A very dangerous thing in the wrong hands)
Some Fatherly Advice:
As we get older, we spend more and we also make more. The sooner we get into the habit of saving and planning ahead, the better. Setting up a workable budget is key to anyones' financial success.
In a nutshell, for very buck you earn,
1. 10 cents (Min. 10%) goes into your savings
2. If single and living at home, put aside 25% for room & board
3. As soon as we get a steady job, join a Company matched 401K plan
4. Set up a plan to save 3 - 6 months of operating expenses for a "rainy day fund"
If one starts this process at age 20 or so, by the time they reach 30, we have learned the basics of good money management. The sooner one starts, the faster one can accumulate $$$ for investments and building a financially sound base for a lifetime.
The main goal here, is to establish enough discipline to live debt-free for the rest of our lives. The only ongoing debts would ideally be a mortgage and perhaps a car note. The rest of our bills and expenses would ideally be paid off each month via checks and debits from our banking accounts.
If one can master this process by age 30 or so, we will never be in deep debt, strapped for cash and owing huge balances of high interest credit debts. This is a great strategy for any person and even more important if one goes into business for themselves later.
See how that works? Make some $$$, save some $, spend the rest wisely. If you start now on said plan, when you are in your 40's you'll OWN your own home, have a solid financial base and be able to enjoy the fruits of wise financial planning. Yes, that seems like a long way off at 18 years old. But, 45 comes up pretty fast once we hit the job market, get married, have kids and buy a home.
"Hello".... are you taking notes? (It would be wise to do that now)
Finally... You're a man now!!! Yes, still feels like a boy in a man's world, but the sooner we adapt to manhood, the better life will go for us along the way. Trust me Mark... this is free advise... but if you follow it now, it will pay you many returns in the future.
Got all that?
swez
I GOT 2 KICKER CVR 12'S DUAL 4OHM VOICE COILS 400RMS EACH!
I NEED AN AMP 4 THEM..
IM CONSIDERIN A SOUNDSTREAM PCA1000D DATS A 1000RMS CLASS D MONO AMP!
IS DAT GOOD? TOO MUCH POWER? OR TOO LITTLE?
GIVE ME UR OPINIONS.. AND RECOMMENDATIONS..
RIGHT NOW IM USING A 2CH AUDIOFONICS 1500W PEAK @ 2OHMS STEREO ON THEM DERE CONNECTED IN STEREO EACH SPEAKER WIRED 2OHM 4 MAX POWER BUT I DONT THINK DERE PERFORMING AT DERE BEST! CUZ I HAD A LAME AUDIOPIPE 4OHM 375RMS SVC 12" B4 CONNECTED 2 A PIONEER 800W MAX @ 2OHM MONO AMP DAT SOUNDED ALMOST THE SAME..
COULD IT BE THE BOXES MY KICKERS ARE IN? I BUILT THEM MYSELF 2 THE SPEAKERS SPL 2.25 CU FT SPECS. WEL NOT EXACTLY.. I DID SOME MODIFICATION TO THE SHAPE 4 THEM 2 FIT IN MY TRUNK. THE SAME CU FT THOUGH.. BUT THE SPEC PORTS ARE RECTANGULAR 3" X 12.5" X 20" LENGHT SO I HAD 2 BEND THEM AT 90DEGREES 4 IT 2 FIT IN THE NEW SHAPE. COULD THAT BE THE PROBLEM?
Replies (12)
swez on 10/19/2006 20:52:52
Why are you shouting Mark?
Caps = shouting or "pay attention" emphasis only.
OK, back to business...
Your Kicker Comp VR's are dual 12's and 4+4 DVC's right. Your wiring options here are net 2 ohms per sub for a 2 channel amp, Or 1 ohm when wired full parallel, or 4 ohms in series/parallel.
To get the most power into them, a solid Class D that can deliver 1000 watts RMS @ 1 ohm loads, would be a good option. The SoundStream PCA1000D will meet that demand well. (good choice BTW)
As for your sub enclosure needs, the larger vented SPL box is 2.5 ft^3 per chamber, + port displacement. Also, the power ratings per sub are now only 300 watt RMS. (larger box = lower power handling ability)
The port displacement you have now, is 750in^3/1728 = 0.43 ft^3/vent) So, your internal sub dimensions would be 2.5 ft^3 + 0.43 = 2.93 ft^3 per chamber. Pretty large box for the pair huh? That 90 degree bend is correct for your port, as long as you keep a 3" space from the back & side walls of the box. (That's how it's done) We need to maintain a 3.0" vent width, the entire length of the vent !!!
If this is what you have now and plan to stick with these subs, you can easily run a smaller/cheaper amp here. Something along the lines of 600 - 800 watts RMS @ 1 ohm, would be very adequate and not damage your subs. However, you will need an Infrasonic/Subsonic filter to protect your subs too.
See page 9 of this file for details and filter needs: 25 Hz., -24dB/octave filter slope. (Tha't a very steep slope and this kind of filter will be expensive too) However, there are cheaper options that shuold protect your subs w/o all that expense. We can discuss that, once you find an amp you like.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/206/2065C10VR4.PDF
Comments?
swez COFFEE
markz on 10/19/2006 22:24:07
wont the subsonic filter on th amp do?
swez on 10/20/2006 08:24:57
Yes, this amp (PCA1000D) has a very good filter.
Just be aware that these subs will take less power in that enclosure size mentioned. (~300 RMS/sub) That makes this amp pretty strong and plenty of dynamic headroom for very clean bass peaks when amp gain is set to deliver ~600 watt RMS @ 1 ohm.
Here, your amp output should be set for a nominal of 24.5 volts AC with HU volume at 80%, and 0dB reference tones. (30 - 80 Hz.)
Got all that?
swez
PS Nice choice on the sub amp!
markz on 10/20/2006 10:25:36
yea thanks i taught its a gr8 amp 2!
so abt this box see i used this design cuz according to the manual it supposed 2 give the most output. so would a smaller box with more power handling be better output wise.. or does this design give me more although it sacrifices some power handling?
also u think this system would be able to take on other 12's in the same or with moderately greater power handling eg. 400- 500rms per speaker and have a good chance at coming out on top in a competition?
swez on 10/20/2006 19:33:35
Yeah, it's a strong setup and you'll have to be careful about how much power the subs can actually take in such a large box. But, that's a typical Kicker sub too. All their SPL box designs follow this game plan.
Frankly, go with the plans you have for now, if you already have the subs on hand. However, if you get tired of them and wish to switch over to an SQL system later, just read some other posts here and get a few ideas for the next install. There are a lot of very good subs out there today. It's not difficult to find a pair of 12's that can handle 500 RMS/sub and give you a net 1 ohm load too.
That amp is a keeper and you can build off that for just about anything you'll want to do later.
swez
markz on 10/20/2006 21:08:17
ok thanks 4 the info on the subs..
wel now that i've covered my sub issues.. hear the rest of my plans an tel me how much sence it makes and maybe how i can improve them..
remember that 2ch audiofonics 1500W amp i said i had b4 wel i also own the 800w version of it.
I have 4 pheonix gold octane R 6" 4ohm 70w rms 140w peak components 2 on the front doors and 2 on the back dash. i fried the tweets 4 them so im usin 2 RELY cheap precision audio mini dome tweets on the front doors they sound rely good though! and 2 legacy 300w bullets in the back. dats my high mids n' tweets dere..
for mid bass im using 2 eminence beta 8" 225w 8ohm speakers also on the back dash.
so heres the install..
im plannin 2 connect the 4 components n' tweets all in parallel dats 2 per ch 2ohm stereo load, to the 800w amp and the 2 eminemce 8" to the 1500w.
i tried connectin everything on the 2ch 1500w amp but when i connect the components in parallel they were getting really HOT! and when i add the 8" speakers in parallel the load goes below 2ohm stereo thats not good either rite?
so i tried something else which in theory would work! i connected the components 2 per ch in series and then connected the 8" in parallel this worked! the components werent gettin hot and the load wasnt below 2ohm. BUT in series the components werent as loud and not performin as they should.
thats why i brought the 2ch 800W into the mix! and thats where my new install plan comes from. so does this plan make sense? or should i try something different?
also later on im plannin 2 get 2 more 8" of the same specs better quality though CAIRE made in italy. dont kno if u've heard of it. IF NOT CHECK IT OUT! excellent midrange stuff! almost twice the price of my first pair though.. and 2 selineum 300w 4ohm horn drivers.
im gonna build 2 monitors wit this new stuff 2 put on my hood mainly for extra outside mids for car shows etc. definately not 4 everyday use unless i want to loose my hearing! lol.
im gonna connect this new stuff in parallel 2 my existing 1500W amp which would already have the other 2 8" connected which would bring this amp down to 2ohm stereo load also!
YOURE THE PRO.. DOES ALL OF THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
comments? criticisms? suggestions? plz..
swez on 10/20/2006 23:13:54
Do you have links to the amps mentioned and specs? If yes, I'd like to review all this and synthesize things to a point where I can offer some contructive integration plans.
In very general terms, I tend to load the front stage with well powered Comps of the best quality one can manage in the budget. This is what we hear the most and accuracy and detail are generally the goal here... We want out best Mid/Highs up front and adequately power and filtered.
As for the rear stage aspects, this is rear full and intended to compliment what's going on in the front stage part of a system. Depending on preferences, we can look at full range Comps, Coaxials or just Midbass. It's mostly a preference to any given listener. More on this as time permits.
Also, a well balanced bass engin will fill in the gaps we cannot get from small format speakers. What we have discussed so far is right on track. (The Kicker subs are a good start, but there are better options to consider if desired) Again, the PCA1000D is a keeper.
Finally, we have to consider power management and insure all amps are getting adequate voltage from the ALT/BAT side of the power supply. This Class D amp will easily grab 50-80 amperes of peak current when it's pushed hard.
Class A/B (full range) amps are very ineffecient with power. For every 100 watts they put out, they consume about 160 watts to deliver it. Keep that in mind when using 2 or 3 full range, stereo amps. Basically, we add up all the fuses in each amp to be used and make sure there is enough reserve power available for not just the amps, but also to keep the car running properly.
Again, just planting a few seeds for you to chew on for now. The specific details can come into the mix later.
Amp links please?
swez
PS Are you familiar with Tri-mode wiring schemes? This can be a very useful option for your MB drivers. However, your main speakers cannot go below 4 ohms and the MB drivers are usually best at 4-8 ohms too. If you need more info on Tri-mode configurations, I'll pass you a link on that later OK?
markz on 10/21/2006 11:01:31
Hey well i did some digging and couldn't find any one link dat gave me all the info so i put together my own specs on these audiofonics amps..
The 800w 2ch ADF-240
max power @ 2ohm- 400x2 (800w)
RMS power @ 2ohm- 150x2
THD @ 2ohm- 0.3%
RMS power @ 4ohm- 100x2
THD@ 4ohm- 0.1%
Bridged power (rms)- 300w
channel seperation- 55dB
freq response 1.0dB- 15Hz-30kHz
hpf- 40Hz- 250kHz
lpf- 40Hz- 250kHz
bass boost- 0, 18dB (non variable)
adj sensivity- 0.2- 6v
input impedance(low level)- 10K Ohms
Fuse- 15Ax2
The 1500w 2ch ADF-243
max power @ 2ohm- 750x2 (1500w)
RMS power @ 2ohm- 300x2
THD @ 2ohm- 0.3%
RMS power @ 4ohm- 200x2
THD@ 4ohm- 0.1%
Bridged power (rms)- 600w
channel seperation- 55dB
freq response 1.0dB- 15Hz-30kHz
hpf- 40Hz- 1kHz
lpf- 30Hz- 500kHz
bass boost- 0- 18dB (variable)
ssf- 10Hz- 100kHz
adj sensivity- 0.2- 6v
input impedance(low level)- 10K Ohms
Fuse- 40Ax2
in addition i found that these amps are both digital amps.
hope this info helps.
also im not really clear on tri wiring. plz explain..
swez on 10/21/2006 14:08:30
Those are both very strong amps and judging by the fuses noted, they are going to demand a lot of attention to detail and some likely electrical upgrades. (H.O. ALT, Big 3 wiring and a stout battery or perhaps a few)
It all depends on how much these amps are pushed, will determine the level of electrical upgrades needed to keep them up to snuff and well supplied. The good news is, you have plenty of clean RMS power to feed any speakers used. The down side here, power drain with all 3 amps will be substantial. (Depending on how hard you push them)
If either of these amps are used to power your PG Octane speakers, the tweeters will be the first to go when too much power is thrown at them. You can probably order replacement tweeters for them as the crossovers match specifically to the tweets that came with this kit originally. Should not be too expensive. The key is knowing the power handling and frequency cutoff range used by the crossover design.
FYI: We can use inline fuses to protect expensive speakers from damage due to excess power input. These can be installed near the amplifiers and in series with the + wires that feed out from the amp used. This fuse will blow if the amp sends too much power to a given speaker and protect your crossovers, mids and tweets too. Cheap insurance here bro!
You mentioned the speakers are PG Octanes, rated at 70 RMS/ side right? OK, the safe bet is a 4 amp fuse for each speaker kit. That's not a standard automotive fuse value huh? However, a 5A fuse is standard will allow ~100 watts RMS power to flow, before it blows. Hummm, let's see what we can find that works? Ahhhh, found something that will be very helpful here:
Fuse:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=071-345
Fuse holder:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=071-345
Problem solved! Get extra fuses too. If you are blowing them regularly, too much power from the amp used. Need to dial back on the amp gains to prevent this.
OK, on to Tri-mode amplifier configurations. Here's a good link to read on that method. Most 2/4 channel amps can handle this method. The key is to avoid low ohmic loads to any given channels off the amp used. Here, 4 ohm speakers (min) are used for each and the net ohmic load is 2 ohms per channel. Keep that in mind as you consider this option.
http://www.bcae1.com/trimode.htm
Now, pay attention to the details on this one and also follow the link to a very detailed notation about tri-mode use. If using Midbass drivers, it is best to use at minimum, a passive low pass filter (Cap or Cap and Coil network) on the MB drivers. Here, we want to pass all frequencies between say 80 - 300 Hz., to the MB speakers. The amp HPF is set to 80 Hz. The values of Cap/Cap coil to use, are based on MB speaker impedence and filtering frequency.
Read this link carefully and study the methodology used. If you feel confident and understand the concepts well, then we can look at what filter components are correct for doing this well the first time.
swez
PS This gets pretty deep. Don't be surprised if you have to review this stuff several times before the picture comes into clear focus. Until then, DO NOTHING but study it, mull it over and then we can chat more about how to do this if you like the plan.
PSS I did find a link to your amps: Hummm, pretty solid specs on paper for sure. It would be great if they had .pdf files on all their products to share. Specs can be manipulated, depending on how an amp is tested and therefore rated. Hype is cheap and prevasive in mobile audio gear. I tend to look deeper for the details and what makes them tick.
http://www.audiofonics.com/amplifiers.html
swez on 10/21/2006 15:36:16
Mark, (Warning... shameless business plug)
I also offer one-on-one, fee-based consulting for such advanced installs. It's a loose contract and a "gentleman's agreement" type thing. My clients only pay for the time and knowledge I provide. They ask for what is needed, I provide solutions and tech support. If you wish to obtain that level of services, let me know and I'll fill you in on the specifics.
Have been doing freebies here at CK, for over 8 years. Now, am semi-retired and this is a good way to guide others, but take things to a much deeper level. It's not overly expensive and the more you already know, (and can manage w/o help) the less one pays for the things they need help on key points.
Actually, this service is very comprehensive and depending on your skills and present knowledge base, it could save you a lot of guess work and so forth. It's best when the client has a good background in 12 volts systems already and has done a few good installs.
Have noted it to be very challenging to work with the absolute novice and newbies in this manner. (I avoid those scenarios) We often have a big language gap to work out, and if they make a mistake or misinterpret specifics, that can be a costly error we all want to avoid. The best candidates, have a good grasp of the flow, limits and can communicate/interpret technical issues well and most important... follow specific directions.
Your call there Mark... just realize that my clients get much more than they actually pay for. This is just "fun monies" and a level of support some guys really need and appreciate. (I'll never get rich at this... but that's not the goal. Helping others reach their goals are JOB #1)
A good Professional Consultant, always looks for the most time/cost effective ways to serve a clients' needs. That's what I am putting on the table for you to consider.
What say you?
swez
markz on 10/22/2006 11:52:00
yo swez dats an interesting offer dat i might take u up on later on.. cuz im plannin rite now 2 go into the audio install business pretty soon.. so when i start makin some money from this u could be my consultant 4 those bigger or complex installs. but 4 rite now im jus an 18yr old kid who's lookin 4 a lil info 2 broaden my knowledge on a few key things im not clear on and pick up a few tricks along the way. ya know..
And plus i dont even hav me a credit card yet! which kinda makes it impossible 2 pay u.. lol. so if u wana help me out 4 now i'd appreciate it! or if not wel up 2 u..
But i'd stil lik 2 find out bout dat consultancy for when im ready sometime later on... thanks..
swez on 10/22/2006 19:52:25
I took ya for several years older there Mark... but yes, it's an as needed type deal and can be set aside for now as you still have much to learn before I can do your the most good.
Guys who have been into tech stuff awhile, (are by far) the ideal clients. They know some of the ropes and terminology already, equate prior learned knowledge to their new project and grasp new ideas quickly too. A newbie does not have the wide knowledge base of a 25-30 year old. So, it takes more time to bring one up to speed. That's what we do well at CK.
Am not setup for CC's & Paypal yet, but may look at paypal as a future option. We do cash, check and barter most of the time anyway.
Since you are now 18, if you have some steady employment, go to a bank, open up an account and request a debit card too. This is the first step in managing money. With a debit card, it gives us the ability to purchase goods and services like a Credit Card, but deducted like as if you wrote a check. A few years of getting this right and you will be ready for your first credit card. (A very dangerous thing in the wrong hands)
Some Fatherly Advice:
As we get older, we spend more and we also make more. The sooner we get into the habit of saving and planning ahead, the better. Setting up a workable budget is key to anyones' financial success.
In a nutshell, for very buck you earn,
1. 10 cents (Min. 10%) goes into your savings
2. If single and living at home, put aside 25% for room & board
3. As soon as we get a steady job, join a Company matched 401K plan
4. Set up a plan to save 3 - 6 months of operating expenses for a "rainy day fund"
If one starts this process at age 20 or so, by the time they reach 30, we have learned the basics of good money management. The sooner one starts, the faster one can accumulate $$$ for investments and building a financially sound base for a lifetime.
The main goal here, is to establish enough discipline to live debt-free for the rest of our lives. The only ongoing debts would ideally be a mortgage and perhaps a car note. The rest of our bills and expenses would ideally be paid off each month via checks and debits from our banking accounts.
If one can master this process by age 30 or so, we will never be in deep debt, strapped for cash and owing huge balances of high interest credit debts. This is a great strategy for any person and even more important if one goes into business for themselves later.
See how that works? Make some $$$, save some $, spend the rest wisely. If you start now on said plan, when you are in your 40's you'll OWN your own home, have a solid financial base and be able to enjoy the fruits of wise financial planning. Yes, that seems like a long way off at 18 years old. But, 45 comes up pretty fast once we hit the job market, get married, have kids and buy a home.
"Hello".... are you taking notes? (It would be wise to do that now)
Finally... You're a man now!!! Yes, still feels like a boy in a man's world, but the sooner we adapt to manhood, the better life will go for us along the way. Trust me Mark... this is free advise... but if you follow it now, it will pay you many returns in the future.
Got all that?
swez
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