I just purchased this vehicle last month and wanted to upgrade a few new things. Here is what I was thinking..please lend your input, it will be greatly appreciated.
My vehicle came with a factory NAV unit which I don't wish to replace. I love it. I would like to work around it. (http://www.wjjeeps.com/nav_2003_2.jpg)
I love Infinity. I would like to replace the front doors with the Kappa 693.7i (6x9 3-Ways), the back doors with the Kappa 652.7i (7" 2-ways), the dash tweeters with the Kappa 10.7t (tweeters). I have an Infinity Reference 7541a. Will this be able to handle these speakers? Do you have any reccomendations about this setup? Should I go with a component for the back door and tweeter dash instead?
Now for the subs. This is where I am completely lost. Should I go with 2-10's or 2-12's, and which amp? I don't really listen to hip hop; mainly country, big hair bands and mainstream rock. I like to hear the vocals and guitar riffs clearly without being too drowned out with bass. However, I want it to thump too, without rattling my back door off, if you understand what I mean.
Thanks again for the help, and any insight will be greatly appreciated.
Replies (15)
swez on 10/16/2006 13:10:38
Good package so far here Rlee. The Components are best used up front and the back are mainly rear fill, so a cheaper speaker can be used if you wish. (2-way coaxial)
Sub amp:
Since you have a strong 4 channel now, I suggest at minimum, the Infinity Reference 311a as your sub amp. A single 12 would be fine here and you can use a ported box design to elevate the lower bass .
With that amp, you'll want the Infinity Reference 1242w sub to match. A single sub is fine at this power range and needs only 2.0 cf of internal airspace inside the box. The external box dimensions will be closer to 2.5 cf when we factor in the port, wood thickness and sub displacement. However, this is easliy done and we can assist you here is you wish to make or buy a pre-fab enclosure. Ask if you need help.
Since you have the NAV unit, you may want to keep your factory HU. Here, you may need some integration parts to ensure everything still works and convert HU speaker lines to RCA level for the remote amps. Not sure, but you may have the Infinity Premium audio package with outboard amps. There are kits to help tap in or bypass these and use Aftermarket amps. Let's wait for one of our Pro Installers to check in and give you the lowdown.
Swez
PS Welcome to our PG site...
Also, since this is a midsize SUV, you will note some good cabin gain affect for the bass region. (About 10-12 dB of free bass in a larger cabin of this size)
rleejr on 10/17/2006 02:34:44
Was looking into locking the deal with the Kappa 652.7i . However, Cardomain.com says it fits my rear door and Crutchfield says that it doesn't. Any way to really find out before the purchase?
rleejr on 10/17/2006 02:37:10
Also, thank you for the response Swez. It is appreciated. However, I don't think that I have the Premium audio package. Is there a way that I can tell(this may be a dumb question), because I didn't see an external amplifier in my jeep.
swez on 10/17/2006 09:53:59
If you have the Infinity Premium system, (amped package) the door speakers will have an Infinity Logo on them. The amps are often located in the dash or rear panels.
You may have to pull the rear door speakers and have a look at what's in there now. If they use 5.25's or 6.5/6.75" now, just use 2-way what's back there. Infinity has several options, but are not listed as a best fit for the rear speakers. You may have some slight modifications to do, (Make some baffles) that allow them to fit up to your current speaker mounts.
Consider calling Crutchfield's Advisor Team for more details. They can tell you where to look for amps and what interconnecting hardware is appropriate for this make and model. Crutch is not the cheapest kid on the block, but they offer pretty solid support before and after the sale of gear they sell. Their install sheets are very helpful to beginners and advanced installers too.
Crutchfield Tech: 1 888.955.6000
swez
rleejr on 10/18/2006 03:08:34
Thanks again Swez. I am curious to see what I have and will check it tomorrow morning. I also emailed crutchfield and cardomain with my question pertaining to the speaker question (I meant the 63.7i speakers for the rear door. They are 6.5 6.75 but for some reason other speakers with the same size seem to fit. Guess we will wait and see what they say.)
I went to a local car audio installation shop today, with visiting the second tomorrow for comparison (small town of 17,000 here). Upon walking in, I didn't notice any Infinity products. There were a lot of Fosgate, JL, JBL, and Clarion products. He (the owner) wasn't too familiar with the Infinity line as per not hearing the product. He had to call his distributer for some prices and such. The distributer appeared to know a lot about the Infinity products I was requesting. I asked if he (the owner) would price match online retailers (not including Ebay of course). He said that he would try his best, however I felt a hefty markup was at hand here. I didn't take my prices in yet but we came up with some guesstimates. The question is, am I getting ripped off you think? I have installed my car audio before, but with the purchase of this new vehicle, I don't wish to mark it up. Before I list the products, he tried to push me into 2 (12W1v2) JL audio subs which are rated at 150 RMS each and the JL 500/1 amp(which I have read the reviews for and everyone seems to really like it). I know what you recommended, was just curious as to what your expert opinion was on this. It seems like a lot of amp...esp at the $575 he wanted to charge me. Well..here re the specs w/ the prices as best as I can remember...
Kappa 6x9 3 ways - 188
Kappa (rear door) - 140
Kappa Tweeters - 100
Infininty ref 7541a - Free (my original amp)
2 JL 12's - 285
Enclosure - 85
JL Amp - 575
2 Line Level Converters - 50
Dynamat (all 4 doors-not hatch) - 140
Install - 355
other stuff plus tax---
TOTAL 2100.000
His product prices are quite a bit higher. If, I don't buy from him I can save $250.00 atleast with those components. But he claimed if I bought it through him, it saves hassle with warranty. I would deal with him directly. What are you thoughts on this? I also am checking out the other place tomorrow.
Thank you once again, you have been very helpful. I hate to be a pest but, if I am going to spend this amount of money into something, I would like to confer with someone that has knowledge of the job, like yourself.
swez on 10/18/2006 05:58:42
Actually, you are not a pest... these are all good questions and reasonble concerns. That's what we are here for... give you guidance and options.
Retail markup is what you are dealing with here. The shop owner has overhead and needs some margin of profit to keep his doors open. They can do slim margins on the expensive stuff, but things like wiring kits, mouting hardware and pre-fab enclosures are where his margins get fat. The more you buy on your own, the more money you'll save.
I see no reason to pay retail for your hardware, subs, speakers and a JL amp. The only way to get a JL warrantee, is to buy from an authorized dealer. The more you buy on your own, the better your cost basis will be.
We all love the JL products when we can afford them. However, a 500/1 is very strong for that sub pairing and the JL subs are expensive compared to other good brands that can handle more power. If you wish to cut cost here, consider Infinity, JBL, Kenwood amps for your sub(s). This shop owner seems to be helpful to a degree, but just note he is in business to turn a profit. He sells what he carries and there is a good markup on that too. In a word, JL is great gear... but not cheap!
It would seem to me, you can do a better deal by purchasing everything you need ahead of time and let a Pro Installer do the work for you. That way, you get the gear you want at the best prices possible and they do the work that you are hesitant to do right now.
Matting is a good idea, but some brands like Dynamat, are very expensive. There are low cost alternatives that will work very well at less cost. (E-dead, B-Quiet or buy D-mat off e-bay and let them install it)
As for labor, I can see $450 - 500.00 for wiring and installing your speakers, matting and other needed hardware. It's labor intensive and lots of time is spent removing access panels and running wires.
On the other hand, you can buy the speakers,sub(s), sub amp, a box, wiring kit and other hardware and pocket that savings. I see no reason not to stick with Infinity speakers, sub(s) and a sub amp. Yes, they may have some fitment issues to resolve, but a good installer can work around them well.
In short, talk with your alternate source and see what they have in mind. Once you get 2 bids on a given setup and labor, we can look at the third option.... You buy the gear and have them do the install only at a reasonable fee.
Comments?
swez
PS Consider a donation to CK along the path OK? We are here only by donations. Please do your part to keep this site going as we work through a customized plan for your needs.
rleejr on 10/23/2006 02:19:23
I will definitly make a contribution to the site so that you may continue to aid others with their car questions. After analyzing your response and doing further research I have decided to not go with the JL sub/amp setup. It is very expensive and others seem pleased with Infinity as well as I was.
Well Swez, I went to the second audio installer in town. I told him up front I was shopping around and would make a decision later and wanted to see what his thoughts were and what he wanted to offer. This was more of a warehouse/garage place whereas the other had a sound room and was a little more set up to accomodate the customer.
He said to leave the Infinity Gold System in my Jeep(which I looked, I have the amp and speakers). He claimed that I would NOT be able to tell a difference between the gold and kappa series for the price I would be paying. He said he would throw 2 Kappa 10's in a box w/ an amp for 600 dollars. What do you think about that? Any comments? He said he didn't want to just take my money. He said he was too honest. That is why he made the reccommendation he did. I also said that I wanted a very clean install. I am looking for portability as well incase I need cargo room. He said that he would mount the amps on the box because the amps would not do well under the seat. (To contradict this I read an artilce on http://www.wjjeeps.com/jlaudio.htm 3.4 the way down in the "amplifier" section) Should installing under the seat not be attempted?
So after more research online, many audiophiles on jeep forums claim the speakers are garbage and have had a problem with the speakers blowing. Upon reading many reviews, people tend to be very happy with the Reference subs as you have recommended. However, I really like the Stealthbox offered for my jeep. However 400-500 dollars is a bit ridiculous for retail. And there doesn't appear to be any custom box builders in the area.
I noticed that in your last reply you said sub(s). If I was looking at the 1242w as you recommended, should I bridge the amp (311a 116 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms - 312 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms)since the sub is dual voice coil or let it be? Basically the same question, if you are thinking 2 1242w's would the 611a (456 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms - 657 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms) be sufficient bridged or unbridged? To what I have read dual 4 ohm speakers can be wired to 2 ohm, if I am not mistaken. If you recommend bridging or not, will the amp run too hot under the seats if they are installed there? Thank you again for your time, it is greatly appreciated and valued.
swez on 10/23/2006 10:58:27
The second opinion was indeed most helpful. Now you know you have Infinity amps and speakers in this vehicle. He may also be "implying" that this system is a bit more challenging to upgrade for his shop and does not wish to take the project on due to previous experience with similar packages. (Ie: Our techs have limited time or skills for this level of install work and we don't want that kind of work)
As for quality of the speakers that came with your jeep, he's a bit off on that one. In most cases, they are OK for an average listener who likes Talk radio and some low impact music. However, for someone who demands more than Vanilla ice cream all the time, the stock speakers will not satisfy either. That is definitely one upgrade worth doing.
I have not worked on any Jeeps of late, but you may find the Infinity speakers desired, need adapter kits to fit properly. Most aftermarket speakers come with some adaptive hardware. However, your scenario may require some custom baffles to fit the speakers you desire. JL notes that as well. (Adapters for front, rear and tweeters needed here)
Also, it would be most helpful to find out more about the stock amps and speakers you have now. The amps may be adedquate if they can deliver a solid 40-50 watts RMS of clean power to your new speakers. The main question here, what ohmic value are the stock speakers in there now and what is the RMS power rating for these amps??? I don't know either answer at this point. The only way to find out, is getting a Multimeter (about $20.00) and doing some measuring of:
1. Speaker ohmic values when not connected to speaker harnesses
2. Reconnect speaker and measure AC voltage applied to speaker when system is playing near full volume
Knowing those 2 key parameters, we can then identify what aftermarket speakers are best suited for your vehicle amps. The 2 ohm Kappas mentioned, may not be a good choice here if the stock amps cannot manage a 2 ohm load well.
FYI: According to the JL link, the factory amp is a 4 channel model that can deliver 180 watts, (45 x 4) to factory speakers. If this is an RMS power rating, that's enough power for a solid Mid/High upgrade. However, if this amp is 180 watts Peak, that equates to about 20 x 4 watts per channel and may be a bit lacking in power when we want some clean punch and power. (Basically, this amp will run out of gas and mid/highs get pretty harsh from excess distortion)
I would follow the JL plans outline in their site, but choose amps and speakers that fit your budget. The OEM adapter kit Pac-OEM-1 will do the job here. It's not cheap in cost, but a major labor saver if you elect to use aftermarket amp and speakers.
Bass engine: A single Ref 1242 and The Ref 311a are a very good match. The 1242 is a 4+4 DVC, rated at 300 watts RMS. In a well designed enclosure, you should expect good bass performance with this kit. Yes, stealth and custom panel enclosures are very expensive. MTX and Q-Logic make them, but are pretty pricey and have limited airspace for a single 10"-12" woofer. Basket depth is also a factor here. Some of the prefabs require a shallow woofer design to fit properly. (woofer under 6" deep)
If you went with dual subs, the 611a is a very good option with the Ref series, 4 ohm SVC subs. (Ref 1050w or 1250w) Here, we have more power, dual subs and about +6dB more clean bass available, as compared with the 311a and 1 sub. Is +6dB more bass really worth the added costs? (Only you can make that call)
NOTE: A 300 RMS sub package should net about +125dB of clean bass. If you went to dual subs and the 611a, your bass SPL will be in the low 130's dB range. That is a notable increase to be sure... but is it what you really want or need?
Finally, yes... amps under the seats can run warm to hot when we push them hard. Class D amps will not generate the major heat as they are much more efficient than full range amps. A stronger 4 channel amp will generate some good heat at full power. They also tend to draw a lot of current too. So, make a carefull choice here if you opt for a new 4 channel and sub amp combo. Some electrical upgrades may be in the cards later and add notable costs to the bottom line budget.
Comments?
swez
PS May I toss this one out for you to consider?
The Infinity Reference 5761a is a 5/6 channel amp. Here, you get 56 x 4 RMS @ 4 ohms. (80 RMS @ 2 ohms... NOT BAD) for mid/high and when bridging the 5/6 channels for a sub, almost 300 RMS @ 4 ohms... (One Ref 1250w is a very good match)
This is a larger format amp, 21-1/8"W x 2-11/16"H x 12-3/16"D and I have installed the JBL version of this one before with very good results. It's under 3 inches in height, but length and depth will not permit installing it under the seats. It seems to run best when mounted to the sub box or attached to the rear seat backs. If you shop it carefully, it can be had for under $250.00 shipped.
http://www.bargainunlimited.com/servlet/Detail?no=302
Tinker18 on 10/23/2006 16:02:33
I wanted to address a question he asked in the beginning post about whether to use a 10 or a 12. And it would seem to me that a 10 would work fine for this application and actually save him a little money. 10's are more tight responsive bass than a 12 and since he doesnt listen to much hip hop or rap, he doesnt need the really really low bass tones from a 12 or larger sub. Using a 10 not only would reduce the cost of the subs, box size more than likely, but also the size of the amp needed to power it as well as the amp powering the 12. Just an idea, to save some more money, and in my personal opinion I tend to like the sound of 10's with country and rock better than I do 12's. I will agree with swez on the JBL amp, as I have had the 300.1 hooked up in my firebird for quite some time now and could not be more happy with it. I would have to say that, yes JL is nice, but you can find something cheaper, that is just as good of a quality amp, and I would urge you too look around well, before you get sold on an amp by a salesman.
Just thought I would add my 2 cents to swez's quarter.
TINK
swez on 10/23/2006 17:10:56
Indeed, I would agree with you Tink. A well designed enclosure and a solid 10" sub and add a nice bump to any ride.
A few months back, did an install with 1 strong 10", a ported wedge that fit right under the seats of an F-150 Super Crew and a JL 500/1. The results were stunning to say it mildly. That package cost him about $1,000 for amp & sub, but being an older guy, no problem for his budget.
We also installed a JL 300/4, CDT Classic 5.25 Comps up front and Infinity Kappa series 6x8 Coaxials in back. Again, very strong mids and highs to go with that bass engine. Oh yeah, it cost a pretty penny to be sure. But, he was an excellent shopper and he and his buddy made fine work of the install as I worked along side them.
They matted the doors and rear cab wall. I think that did conrtibute a lot to the results too. It was strong inside the truck cabin, very stealth and with the windows up and doors closed, not a lot could be heard outside the cabin too. In all, a first rate install.
swez
PS No, am not pushing JL on you here either. They are superb amps to be sure. But it's an arm, a leg and your first born male child as the fee. Am sure you'll get excellent results with Infinity, JBL, Alpine or Kenwood amps here too.
swez on 10/25/2006 12:20:10
So there RLee, what have you come up with as of now?
Cornfusing at times with all the great options out there huh?
Just a though.... we are here to exchange ideas... not sell products.
swez
rleejr on 10/26/2006 06:45:08
Well, you have given me a lot of info, which I am very greatful for. I typed up a HUGE response to answer all your questions. However, the forum didn't take it and erased what was in the box. I have been working and taking classes all day, so my response time is limited. I will type a response to some things within the next day.
However, I have one quick question. My main focus is a clean install. I want to be able to use my cargo room accordingly if need be. What are your thoughts on the JL Audio's stealthbox? It holds one 10' sub in a box which is designed for the driver side rear cargo area, next to the wheel well. (http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_stealthbox_detail.php?fit_id=1409). I can get one for around $320 w/o the speaker. Is that too much for one or am I not looking in the right place for it?
swez on 10/26/2006 10:22:21
If you must have this type of stealth enclosure, the options are very limited and expensive for this vehicle. I would expect a custom steath box to go for at least $250.00 or higher. (No matter who offers them)
There is one custom enclosure maker that makes an excellent product and is very expensive too. They are called Pro Box. You can contact them via this link and see if they can fab a design for your vehicle too.
http://www.proboxrocks.com/contactus.shtml
Installed a single 10" ported version that fit well under the passenger seat, behind the driver for an F-150 Crew. This was an excellent box and sub combo. It was not cheap and the guy who bought it, did weeks of research to find a perfect box designed for stealth.
The other option is to run with a standard sub enclosure and add an amp as desired. A single 10-12" sub box can be well under 2.0 cubic feet. No, it's not as stealthy, but you can easily move it around our take it out when maximum cargo space is needed.
swez
PS Where is the spare tire located in this vehicle? (Tire well, side in cargo area) or outside the truck?
Tinker18 on 10/27/2006 11:55:08
If I am not mistaken, the spare tire on those jeeps is inside on the right hand side behind the back right fenderwell swez....But I dont remember for sure. And while I understand your need for a stealth box, a portable one like swez's suggestion is almost a really good consideration when you take price into account. In my personal opinion, 350.00 is alot for a box holding a single 10 or 12, even if it is stealth. For the money you would save, it would seem a removable box to be the best selection, unless you are very adamant about not being able to see it. How much room do you have under the rear passenger seat and floor board?
thanks,
TINK
swez on 10/27/2006 13:20:27
That tire well is one possible option, if you can mount a sub in there and put the spare on a rear mounted swing arm later. It would require some careful planning and serious custom fabrication work too.
However, if you demand stealth and cargo space, it's an option to consider. (Not a cheap or easy fix though)
Swez
My vehicle came with a factory NAV unit which I don't wish to replace. I love it. I would like to work around it. (http://www.wjjeeps.com/nav_2003_2.jpg)
I love Infinity. I would like to replace the front doors with the Kappa 693.7i (6x9 3-Ways), the back doors with the Kappa 652.7i (7" 2-ways), the dash tweeters with the Kappa 10.7t (tweeters). I have an Infinity Reference 7541a. Will this be able to handle these speakers? Do you have any reccomendations about this setup? Should I go with a component for the back door and tweeter dash instead?
Now for the subs. This is where I am completely lost. Should I go with 2-10's or 2-12's, and which amp? I don't really listen to hip hop; mainly country, big hair bands and mainstream rock. I like to hear the vocals and guitar riffs clearly without being too drowned out with bass. However, I want it to thump too, without rattling my back door off, if you understand what I mean.
Thanks again for the help, and any insight will be greatly appreciated.
Replies (15)
swez on 10/16/2006 13:10:38
Good package so far here Rlee. The Components are best used up front and the back are mainly rear fill, so a cheaper speaker can be used if you wish. (2-way coaxial)
Sub amp:
Since you have a strong 4 channel now, I suggest at minimum, the Infinity Reference 311a as your sub amp. A single 12 would be fine here and you can use a ported box design to elevate the lower bass .
With that amp, you'll want the Infinity Reference 1242w sub to match. A single sub is fine at this power range and needs only 2.0 cf of internal airspace inside the box. The external box dimensions will be closer to 2.5 cf when we factor in the port, wood thickness and sub displacement. However, this is easliy done and we can assist you here is you wish to make or buy a pre-fab enclosure. Ask if you need help.
Since you have the NAV unit, you may want to keep your factory HU. Here, you may need some integration parts to ensure everything still works and convert HU speaker lines to RCA level for the remote amps. Not sure, but you may have the Infinity Premium audio package with outboard amps. There are kits to help tap in or bypass these and use Aftermarket amps. Let's wait for one of our Pro Installers to check in and give you the lowdown.
Swez
PS Welcome to our PG site...
Also, since this is a midsize SUV, you will note some good cabin gain affect for the bass region. (About 10-12 dB of free bass in a larger cabin of this size)
rleejr on 10/17/2006 02:34:44
Was looking into locking the deal with the Kappa 652.7i . However, Cardomain.com says it fits my rear door and Crutchfield says that it doesn't. Any way to really find out before the purchase?
rleejr on 10/17/2006 02:37:10
Also, thank you for the response Swez. It is appreciated. However, I don't think that I have the Premium audio package. Is there a way that I can tell(this may be a dumb question), because I didn't see an external amplifier in my jeep.
swez on 10/17/2006 09:53:59
If you have the Infinity Premium system, (amped package) the door speakers will have an Infinity Logo on them. The amps are often located in the dash or rear panels.
You may have to pull the rear door speakers and have a look at what's in there now. If they use 5.25's or 6.5/6.75" now, just use 2-way what's back there. Infinity has several options, but are not listed as a best fit for the rear speakers. You may have some slight modifications to do, (Make some baffles) that allow them to fit up to your current speaker mounts.
Consider calling Crutchfield's Advisor Team for more details. They can tell you where to look for amps and what interconnecting hardware is appropriate for this make and model. Crutch is not the cheapest kid on the block, but they offer pretty solid support before and after the sale of gear they sell. Their install sheets are very helpful to beginners and advanced installers too.
Crutchfield Tech: 1 888.955.6000
swez
rleejr on 10/18/2006 03:08:34
Thanks again Swez. I am curious to see what I have and will check it tomorrow morning. I also emailed crutchfield and cardomain with my question pertaining to the speaker question (I meant the 63.7i speakers for the rear door. They are 6.5 6.75 but for some reason other speakers with the same size seem to fit. Guess we will wait and see what they say.)
I went to a local car audio installation shop today, with visiting the second tomorrow for comparison (small town of 17,000 here). Upon walking in, I didn't notice any Infinity products. There were a lot of Fosgate, JL, JBL, and Clarion products. He (the owner) wasn't too familiar with the Infinity line as per not hearing the product. He had to call his distributer for some prices and such. The distributer appeared to know a lot about the Infinity products I was requesting. I asked if he (the owner) would price match online retailers (not including Ebay of course). He said that he would try his best, however I felt a hefty markup was at hand here. I didn't take my prices in yet but we came up with some guesstimates. The question is, am I getting ripped off you think? I have installed my car audio before, but with the purchase of this new vehicle, I don't wish to mark it up. Before I list the products, he tried to push me into 2 (12W1v2) JL audio subs which are rated at 150 RMS each and the JL 500/1 amp(which I have read the reviews for and everyone seems to really like it). I know what you recommended, was just curious as to what your expert opinion was on this. It seems like a lot of amp...esp at the $575 he wanted to charge me. Well..here re the specs w/ the prices as best as I can remember...
Kappa 6x9 3 ways - 188
Kappa (rear door) - 140
Kappa Tweeters - 100
Infininty ref 7541a - Free (my original amp)
2 JL 12's - 285
Enclosure - 85
JL Amp - 575
2 Line Level Converters - 50
Dynamat (all 4 doors-not hatch) - 140
Install - 355
other stuff plus tax---
TOTAL 2100.000
His product prices are quite a bit higher. If, I don't buy from him I can save $250.00 atleast with those components. But he claimed if I bought it through him, it saves hassle with warranty. I would deal with him directly. What are you thoughts on this? I also am checking out the other place tomorrow.
Thank you once again, you have been very helpful. I hate to be a pest but, if I am going to spend this amount of money into something, I would like to confer with someone that has knowledge of the job, like yourself.
swez on 10/18/2006 05:58:42
Actually, you are not a pest... these are all good questions and reasonble concerns. That's what we are here for... give you guidance and options.
Retail markup is what you are dealing with here. The shop owner has overhead and needs some margin of profit to keep his doors open. They can do slim margins on the expensive stuff, but things like wiring kits, mouting hardware and pre-fab enclosures are where his margins get fat. The more you buy on your own, the more money you'll save.
I see no reason to pay retail for your hardware, subs, speakers and a JL amp. The only way to get a JL warrantee, is to buy from an authorized dealer. The more you buy on your own, the better your cost basis will be.
We all love the JL products when we can afford them. However, a 500/1 is very strong for that sub pairing and the JL subs are expensive compared to other good brands that can handle more power. If you wish to cut cost here, consider Infinity, JBL, Kenwood amps for your sub(s). This shop owner seems to be helpful to a degree, but just note he is in business to turn a profit. He sells what he carries and there is a good markup on that too. In a word, JL is great gear... but not cheap!
It would seem to me, you can do a better deal by purchasing everything you need ahead of time and let a Pro Installer do the work for you. That way, you get the gear you want at the best prices possible and they do the work that you are hesitant to do right now.
Matting is a good idea, but some brands like Dynamat, are very expensive. There are low cost alternatives that will work very well at less cost. (E-dead, B-Quiet or buy D-mat off e-bay and let them install it)
As for labor, I can see $450 - 500.00 for wiring and installing your speakers, matting and other needed hardware. It's labor intensive and lots of time is spent removing access panels and running wires.
On the other hand, you can buy the speakers,sub(s), sub amp, a box, wiring kit and other hardware and pocket that savings. I see no reason not to stick with Infinity speakers, sub(s) and a sub amp. Yes, they may have some fitment issues to resolve, but a good installer can work around them well.
In short, talk with your alternate source and see what they have in mind. Once you get 2 bids on a given setup and labor, we can look at the third option.... You buy the gear and have them do the install only at a reasonable fee.
Comments?
swez
PS Consider a donation to CK along the path OK? We are here only by donations. Please do your part to keep this site going as we work through a customized plan for your needs.
rleejr on 10/23/2006 02:19:23
I will definitly make a contribution to the site so that you may continue to aid others with their car questions. After analyzing your response and doing further research I have decided to not go with the JL sub/amp setup. It is very expensive and others seem pleased with Infinity as well as I was.
Well Swez, I went to the second audio installer in town. I told him up front I was shopping around and would make a decision later and wanted to see what his thoughts were and what he wanted to offer. This was more of a warehouse/garage place whereas the other had a sound room and was a little more set up to accomodate the customer.
He said to leave the Infinity Gold System in my Jeep(which I looked, I have the amp and speakers). He claimed that I would NOT be able to tell a difference between the gold and kappa series for the price I would be paying. He said he would throw 2 Kappa 10's in a box w/ an amp for 600 dollars. What do you think about that? Any comments? He said he didn't want to just take my money. He said he was too honest. That is why he made the reccommendation he did. I also said that I wanted a very clean install. I am looking for portability as well incase I need cargo room. He said that he would mount the amps on the box because the amps would not do well under the seat. (To contradict this I read an artilce on http://www.wjjeeps.com/jlaudio.htm 3.4 the way down in the "amplifier" section) Should installing under the seat not be attempted?
So after more research online, many audiophiles on jeep forums claim the speakers are garbage and have had a problem with the speakers blowing. Upon reading many reviews, people tend to be very happy with the Reference subs as you have recommended. However, I really like the Stealthbox offered for my jeep. However 400-500 dollars is a bit ridiculous for retail. And there doesn't appear to be any custom box builders in the area.
I noticed that in your last reply you said sub(s). If I was looking at the 1242w as you recommended, should I bridge the amp (311a 116 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms - 312 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms)since the sub is dual voice coil or let it be? Basically the same question, if you are thinking 2 1242w's would the 611a (456 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms - 657 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms) be sufficient bridged or unbridged? To what I have read dual 4 ohm speakers can be wired to 2 ohm, if I am not mistaken. If you recommend bridging or not, will the amp run too hot under the seats if they are installed there? Thank you again for your time, it is greatly appreciated and valued.
swez on 10/23/2006 10:58:27
The second opinion was indeed most helpful. Now you know you have Infinity amps and speakers in this vehicle. He may also be "implying" that this system is a bit more challenging to upgrade for his shop and does not wish to take the project on due to previous experience with similar packages. (Ie: Our techs have limited time or skills for this level of install work and we don't want that kind of work)
As for quality of the speakers that came with your jeep, he's a bit off on that one. In most cases, they are OK for an average listener who likes Talk radio and some low impact music. However, for someone who demands more than Vanilla ice cream all the time, the stock speakers will not satisfy either. That is definitely one upgrade worth doing.
I have not worked on any Jeeps of late, but you may find the Infinity speakers desired, need adapter kits to fit properly. Most aftermarket speakers come with some adaptive hardware. However, your scenario may require some custom baffles to fit the speakers you desire. JL notes that as well. (Adapters for front, rear and tweeters needed here)
Also, it would be most helpful to find out more about the stock amps and speakers you have now. The amps may be adedquate if they can deliver a solid 40-50 watts RMS of clean power to your new speakers. The main question here, what ohmic value are the stock speakers in there now and what is the RMS power rating for these amps??? I don't know either answer at this point. The only way to find out, is getting a Multimeter (about $20.00) and doing some measuring of:
1. Speaker ohmic values when not connected to speaker harnesses
2. Reconnect speaker and measure AC voltage applied to speaker when system is playing near full volume
Knowing those 2 key parameters, we can then identify what aftermarket speakers are best suited for your vehicle amps. The 2 ohm Kappas mentioned, may not be a good choice here if the stock amps cannot manage a 2 ohm load well.
FYI: According to the JL link, the factory amp is a 4 channel model that can deliver 180 watts, (45 x 4) to factory speakers. If this is an RMS power rating, that's enough power for a solid Mid/High upgrade. However, if this amp is 180 watts Peak, that equates to about 20 x 4 watts per channel and may be a bit lacking in power when we want some clean punch and power. (Basically, this amp will run out of gas and mid/highs get pretty harsh from excess distortion)
I would follow the JL plans outline in their site, but choose amps and speakers that fit your budget. The OEM adapter kit Pac-OEM-1 will do the job here. It's not cheap in cost, but a major labor saver if you elect to use aftermarket amp and speakers.
Bass engine: A single Ref 1242 and The Ref 311a are a very good match. The 1242 is a 4+4 DVC, rated at 300 watts RMS. In a well designed enclosure, you should expect good bass performance with this kit. Yes, stealth and custom panel enclosures are very expensive. MTX and Q-Logic make them, but are pretty pricey and have limited airspace for a single 10"-12" woofer. Basket depth is also a factor here. Some of the prefabs require a shallow woofer design to fit properly. (woofer under 6" deep)
If you went with dual subs, the 611a is a very good option with the Ref series, 4 ohm SVC subs. (Ref 1050w or 1250w) Here, we have more power, dual subs and about +6dB more clean bass available, as compared with the 311a and 1 sub. Is +6dB more bass really worth the added costs? (Only you can make that call)
NOTE: A 300 RMS sub package should net about +125dB of clean bass. If you went to dual subs and the 611a, your bass SPL will be in the low 130's dB range. That is a notable increase to be sure... but is it what you really want or need?
Finally, yes... amps under the seats can run warm to hot when we push them hard. Class D amps will not generate the major heat as they are much more efficient than full range amps. A stronger 4 channel amp will generate some good heat at full power. They also tend to draw a lot of current too. So, make a carefull choice here if you opt for a new 4 channel and sub amp combo. Some electrical upgrades may be in the cards later and add notable costs to the bottom line budget.
Comments?
swez
PS May I toss this one out for you to consider?
The Infinity Reference 5761a is a 5/6 channel amp. Here, you get 56 x 4 RMS @ 4 ohms. (80 RMS @ 2 ohms... NOT BAD) for mid/high and when bridging the 5/6 channels for a sub, almost 300 RMS @ 4 ohms... (One Ref 1250w is a very good match)
This is a larger format amp, 21-1/8"W x 2-11/16"H x 12-3/16"D and I have installed the JBL version of this one before with very good results. It's under 3 inches in height, but length and depth will not permit installing it under the seats. It seems to run best when mounted to the sub box or attached to the rear seat backs. If you shop it carefully, it can be had for under $250.00 shipped.
http://www.bargainunlimited.com/servlet/Detail?no=302
Tinker18 on 10/23/2006 16:02:33
I wanted to address a question he asked in the beginning post about whether to use a 10 or a 12. And it would seem to me that a 10 would work fine for this application and actually save him a little money. 10's are more tight responsive bass than a 12 and since he doesnt listen to much hip hop or rap, he doesnt need the really really low bass tones from a 12 or larger sub. Using a 10 not only would reduce the cost of the subs, box size more than likely, but also the size of the amp needed to power it as well as the amp powering the 12. Just an idea, to save some more money, and in my personal opinion I tend to like the sound of 10's with country and rock better than I do 12's. I will agree with swez on the JBL amp, as I have had the 300.1 hooked up in my firebird for quite some time now and could not be more happy with it. I would have to say that, yes JL is nice, but you can find something cheaper, that is just as good of a quality amp, and I would urge you too look around well, before you get sold on an amp by a salesman.
Just thought I would add my 2 cents to swez's quarter.
TINK
swez on 10/23/2006 17:10:56
Indeed, I would agree with you Tink. A well designed enclosure and a solid 10" sub and add a nice bump to any ride.
A few months back, did an install with 1 strong 10", a ported wedge that fit right under the seats of an F-150 Super Crew and a JL 500/1. The results were stunning to say it mildly. That package cost him about $1,000 for amp & sub, but being an older guy, no problem for his budget.
We also installed a JL 300/4, CDT Classic 5.25 Comps up front and Infinity Kappa series 6x8 Coaxials in back. Again, very strong mids and highs to go with that bass engine. Oh yeah, it cost a pretty penny to be sure. But, he was an excellent shopper and he and his buddy made fine work of the install as I worked along side them.
They matted the doors and rear cab wall. I think that did conrtibute a lot to the results too. It was strong inside the truck cabin, very stealth and with the windows up and doors closed, not a lot could be heard outside the cabin too. In all, a first rate install.
swez
PS No, am not pushing JL on you here either. They are superb amps to be sure. But it's an arm, a leg and your first born male child as the fee. Am sure you'll get excellent results with Infinity, JBL, Alpine or Kenwood amps here too.
swez on 10/25/2006 12:20:10
So there RLee, what have you come up with as of now?
Cornfusing at times with all the great options out there huh?
Just a though.... we are here to exchange ideas... not sell products.
swez
rleejr on 10/26/2006 06:45:08
Well, you have given me a lot of info, which I am very greatful for. I typed up a HUGE response to answer all your questions. However, the forum didn't take it and erased what was in the box. I have been working and taking classes all day, so my response time is limited. I will type a response to some things within the next day.
However, I have one quick question. My main focus is a clean install. I want to be able to use my cargo room accordingly if need be. What are your thoughts on the JL Audio's stealthbox? It holds one 10' sub in a box which is designed for the driver side rear cargo area, next to the wheel well. (http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_stealthbox_detail.php?fit_id=1409). I can get one for around $320 w/o the speaker. Is that too much for one or am I not looking in the right place for it?
swez on 10/26/2006 10:22:21
If you must have this type of stealth enclosure, the options are very limited and expensive for this vehicle. I would expect a custom steath box to go for at least $250.00 or higher. (No matter who offers them)
There is one custom enclosure maker that makes an excellent product and is very expensive too. They are called Pro Box. You can contact them via this link and see if they can fab a design for your vehicle too.
http://www.proboxrocks.com/contactus.shtml
Installed a single 10" ported version that fit well under the passenger seat, behind the driver for an F-150 Crew. This was an excellent box and sub combo. It was not cheap and the guy who bought it, did weeks of research to find a perfect box designed for stealth.
The other option is to run with a standard sub enclosure and add an amp as desired. A single 10-12" sub box can be well under 2.0 cubic feet. No, it's not as stealthy, but you can easily move it around our take it out when maximum cargo space is needed.
swez
PS Where is the spare tire located in this vehicle? (Tire well, side in cargo area) or outside the truck?
Tinker18 on 10/27/2006 11:55:08
If I am not mistaken, the spare tire on those jeeps is inside on the right hand side behind the back right fenderwell swez....But I dont remember for sure. And while I understand your need for a stealth box, a portable one like swez's suggestion is almost a really good consideration when you take price into account. In my personal opinion, 350.00 is alot for a box holding a single 10 or 12, even if it is stealth. For the money you would save, it would seem a removable box to be the best selection, unless you are very adamant about not being able to see it. How much room do you have under the rear passenger seat and floor board?
thanks,
TINK
swez on 10/27/2006 13:20:27
That tire well is one possible option, if you can mount a sub in there and put the spare on a rear mounted swing arm later. It would require some careful planning and serious custom fabrication work too.
However, if you demand stealth and cargo space, it's an option to consider. (Not a cheap or easy fix though)
Swez
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