Whattup fellas, I have a few questions, any help would be great
1. Is there any to measure square waves and clipping without a sine wave analyser? And if not where could I rent/Buy such equipment and for what cost?
2. I'm sure it's common sence things, but what do you guys keep calling the Big 3? I feel stupid for asking, but I need to know the lingo around here.
3. I would love some opinions on high performance 10" in the sub $300 range. I'm partial to Infinity Perfect VQ's and Diamond Audio D3's, but second opinions are always good. If it's sold out of Ulimate Electronics, even better.
4. Anybody ever run a Boston Rally Series 10" in a bandpass enclosure? I'm considerind getting a set like that on Friday, but would like some knowlegde on the sub first. I put a Generator 10" in My exes ride and it was awesome, but this is a different model and the box was sealed..........mmmmm obsessive uncertaity.
5. Swez, how you keed your audio pimpin hand so strong? I've read a few of your posts, your a genuis man.
Thanks guys,
Curtis
Replies (51)
MrBrownstone on 10/3/2006 23:39:06
I'll try to help you with the easiest first.
#2 Big 3
Your electrical system is like a water system. The size of the wire dictates the resistance...and subsequently, the width of the water pipe.
The only source is the alternator. The battery is the water tower. It stores power, but the water pump (alternator) fills it up.
If you upgrade the factory wire running from the alternator to the battery, more water can flow in that direction. However, on the flipside, if you don't upgrade the wire running from the body of the vehicle to the battery, it's like having a hose with a kink in it. Lastly, upgrading the alternator to chassis.
Batt + to Alternator
Batt - to the chassis
Alternator - to the chassis
#3 speaker selection
How you plan on using your audio system dictates which woofer to select. You get 3 choices in subwoofer system design.
100% SQ (accurate reproduction of sound)
100% SPL (how loud)
75% of one, and 25% of the other.
You can't have it 50/50. Either you have a 1/2-arsed sounding system that is loud, or you have a nice sounding system that is reasonably loud.
Both woofers you mentioned will work equally well...it's the box design and the installation of your system the determine how to get the most out of your speakers.
4. Bandpass Boston RS
I think the question should be answered in #3 before spending a lot of time on this one. For a little about the box design, check this out first:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes4.asp#5
5. Swez
Swez is a dinosaur. He was one of the first people to use fire. He had the 1st indoor outhouse in his neighborhood. And, he was one of the first guys to participate in research studies on Viagra, Propecia, as well as PENICILLIN
What I'm saying is, he is old. Also, his 'pimpin hand'?...I can't comment other than his advanced degree in fishing.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/3/2006 23:57:42
Sweet dude. That's what I figured you meant by the big three, but I had to check. My buddy and I are going to do it with 0 gauge Monster stuff, as soon as we get off our lazy butts, and I get a worthy system. As for the boston, I'm just wondereing if anybody has run such a setup and how it did. I'm not building any boxes till I finalize my plans for my comp system. But when I do I'm going all out. The Boston is an oppotunistic thing at a pawn shop that owes me store credit. It's already mounted in a subzero bandpass box, labeled at $80. So the price is definetly right When the time comes though I'm thinking a pair of D3 12 with the matching amp, (I'm not sure of the model) or perfect 10 DVQ's with a pair of MRP-M350 Alpines. I'm trying to peice evrything together slowly, because I'm a broke@$$ Either way im thinking one sealed box in the backseat or rear footwell, and one bandpass in the trunk, soundported through the back dash, tuned at 30 and 60hz, with either kappa or D3 (D9's if I come across a small fortune) componet sets all around. And a different car to put it in. The bucket runs good, but it got NO style. At least the Five-0 never notices me. And anybody, clipping, squarewave test with out sinewave analyser?
MrBrownstone on 10/4/2006 00:19:51
At any rate, try to design your system and not purchase equipment based upon availability. No sense of getting a good deal on worthless crap, right?
What is the need for #1? www.termpro.com (db drag forum) is a good place for resources on that. Of course, why buy nice sounding subs like you mentioned? They are not designed for that type of application...should you be competing in that arena.
swez on 10/4/2006 10:20:01
Thanks for the props Shoot...
The Signal analyzer to use is a 2 channel Oscilloscope. These are not cheap and takes some time to get used to working with them. With this tool, we can monitor input signals from an audio source and observe the wave form integrity and amplitude on channel 1 and then flip to channel 2 where the amp output signal is measured.
Channel 2 will give us an identical wave form as Channel 1 shows, but the scale used for measuring will be at a higher voltage settings, depending on the amp used.
With a good O-scope, we can measure frequency, amplitude and observe wave form distortions due to clipping. (if any) The goal is to get maximum amplitude readings off the amp outputs without clipping.
FYI: Here, we often use a calibrated signal tone generator for precise input and tone purity. We also use non-inductive dummy load resistors as the amplifier load. The dummy loads have to take enough power and supply the targeted ohmic load range we expect to use on a given amplifer. (It may mean a bank of high powered resistors in series/parallel configuration to dissapate the power from a given amp)
Yes, I am from the Jurassic period and therefore older than dirt. After that many years of hanging around on Mother Earth, some do pick up a few things along the way.
Mr. B. is a much younger dino and is just now entering his prime. I have to keep a close eye on him at times as he is prone to wander off from the pod and get stuck in a tar pit. LOL
swez COFFEE
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/4/2006 15:30:06
Thanks for the help guys. As of right now, I have an amp that seems to be damaging subs, but I never turn the gain past half. I know clean power wont cause square wave, but I cant figure out the problem. Hey Swez, Ever hear a Boston rally series in an bandpass setup, and if so, how did they do. I'm not shooting for a comp stereo yet...Hell I'm still using internal powere from my deck. Ahhhhh brokeness. Thanks again guys
swez on 10/4/2006 18:36:13
Am not familiar with that sub and I rarely suggest BP boxes unless the guy is strictly going SPL and knows EXACTLY whet they are doing for the peak tuning node.
Looks like this sub is pretty low power for modest power amps. (175 watts RMS) Frankly, that $80.00 could be used for something a bit more robust.
Tell more about your present sub, box and amp. Make and model #'s with links are good nuff.
It seems like you are looking for a solid bass engine here for your "Hoopty"? The trick is to use a high efficiency sub(s), a sealed or ported enclosure, tuned to the music ya like best.
Also, since this is a trunk mount system, upper bass will be minimal and deep lows will dominate in all but very compact sealed enclosures. The only way to work around that, would be to remove your rear speakers and use those holes to pass bass into the cabin.
Here, a pair of surface mount 6x9" boxes, (rear window decking) and get your rear stage mids and highs this way. If done well, this may look a bit ghetto... but as for sound, yes... a good staging option.
1992 Buick LeSabre, BIGGIE Hoopty Ghetto ride LOL What the heck is a Hoopty ride anyway? I live near Detroit and should know that one by now.
http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/comments.php?id=3282_0_7_0_C
Nevermind, I now qualify as a "Bonified Hoopty Car Owner" as do most GM car owners made before 1999 and look like they have been through a long tour of duty in Iraq. Hummm, is there such a thing as a "Hoopty person"? If yes, I might qualify for addition Clubb benefits?
swez
PS It's not the cost or quality of the vehicles we drive... it's more about what we can get away with as Hoopty Car drivers. I have no problems going toe to toe with a Lexus, Mercedes or Beemers in a grudge match for freeway merging rights.
If they don't get outta da friggin' way, am not opposed to "push the envelope" with them one bit. Big guy... Big Beater and with a big attitude toward snooty, Primo car drivers. Care to swap some paint? LOL
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/4/2006 20:15:47
Hoopty aplies to an American 4-door that looks ghetto, you should know that livind by Detriot expecially.
Curenntly I'm running a Profile Baja amp, but I'm not sure of the model number because the paint is scraped off right there, but it was $20, so I snagged it to replace my amp with damaged RCA terminals.
The sub is a Profile BX10 which is the worst sounding sub I have ever heard. I'm returning the BX10 so I can get the Boston paid for mostly on store credit. IPawn shops don't have a good selection, and I'm not giving up that store credit. I'm looking for a good listening system for now.
I'm currentIly running a CDA9807 head unit and I love it. Just replaced my JVC EL Kameleon LX-300 and it blows it out of the water.
I have done a back dash sound port in the back dash of a Toyota Cressida I had, We used an Infinity Reference 1042w in that setup, it was bad as all hell. I DO NOT put anything in a sealed trunk, I'll bust out a sound port or put it in the back seat before that. Lost bass effeciency equals lost sleep at night. I have two main rules in my car, Bass over Space, and Beats over Heat. I When I sold the Bandpass Infinity setup to my buddy when I moved to Why?oming, People around there thought it was two 15"s. Fools up there have never heard a good stereo. I Almost had to brawl a guy who was trying to convince me Pioneer was the best stuff out there, and I got into a heated argument with a worker at the local Auto Zone who was trying to convince me no matter what the amp, it will never need more than 12 ga power and ground cable. Rediculous.
As for the surface boxes, I'm not planning to use the rear deak as a sound stage for my highs and mids, I'm considering the rear doors instead.
As for the Hoopty Club, i guess I only meet the quaified by the fix a flat. I'm not aware of another one, but there should be one, let's start one. I love showing fools up in their ricegrinders in my bucket, nothing like the poster grandpa car embarrassing some clown in his hopped up little Civic. I live to embarass Honda Drivers, and will do so at every atvantage. As for the Luxo-cruisers, those cars come with a special drivers liscence that lets you do whatever the hell you please. I found that out when my brother got a 740 Bimmer. Gotta get that liscence, becaude all I got now is the CrackerJack box permit after all my speeding tickets......
MrBrownstone on 10/4/2006 22:40:29
Can I buy a paragraph :-)
swez on 10/4/2006 23:54:17
Actually, I like to loan Shoot about 6-8 paragraphs so as we can read all that stuff a bit easier. GRIN (Use that enter button dude please...) These eyes ain't as young as yours and it tough reading all text and no spaces.
Yeah, that 92 LeSabre... Hoopty Ghetto Cruiser will still get along pretty well with a 3.8 V6 and 205 HP too. It's a bit heavy, but the engine and tranny still get the job done, even when the paint is falling off and interior fabric is looking pretty poor. But, what the hey... it's good work transportation. Can haul a lot of tools and stuff in it when needed. The trunk is big enough to fit 3 large bodies in there.
If a nice car or truck is needed, pick one:
1. 2000 Lincoln Town Car (Classy Chassis)
2. 2004 E-150 Conversion Van (Pimp-mobile)
3. 2006 F-350 Turbo Diesel Dually (Haul some serious junk around)
It seems like a car lot in the driveway and the garage rarely sees a vehicle until winter sets in. The Lincoln gets the garage, the Dually and Van head for Florida and so do I when possible.
Ya know, a guy can get used to semi-retirement if one can stay busy enough to fend off boredom and poverty. What a life huh? D'oh
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 15:15:28
Sorry about that guys, I will use the enter button
You almost seem to be describing my Buick, especially the issue of the paint falling off and interior looking like crap. My car's been in the family for a while, it was my crazy packrat great aunts car when it was purchased new. Now my young @$$ is driving the wheels off it., But mine is the century, smallish trunk, two bodies max, maybe three if hacked into pieces......
You selling these cars? Winter in Florida?
swez on 10/5/2006 17:19:16
The Conversion Van is loaded and will be sold while in Florida. Up in MICH, demand for such trucks are minimal and for every 2 peeps who can afford it here, (~$30,000) there are 30 in FL that would like such a vehicle.
The Lincoln get's garaged every winter and is also a FLorida car. It's never seen a MI winter on the road.
The F-350 is the towing monster for the family 37 foot 5th wheeler.
Basically, we have an expensive toy shop/lot going on here. It's nuts and time to off a few things to make room for new toys next year.
Sigh... Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 20:05:55
Way too rich for my blood, Even though I do hold a special place in my heart for Lincolns. My first car was an 87 Mark VII. Besides, I'm thinking about an early Ninties Benz station wagon. I've never owned wagon, hatchback or SUV style body types, and I like the thought of the cabin gain involved. Plus the style of a Benzwagon's nameplate alone could change my marital status. Plus I'm way sick of bypassing back seats and rear decks for sound ports, wiring, ect.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 20:14:48
Oh yeah, where could I acquire one of them newfangdangled Oscillomascopes at? I had heard of it before i talked to you, but wouldn't have the first clue of where to look
swez on 10/6/2006 05:59:02
Electronic flea markets for Ham radio operators would be a good place to look and perhaps e-bay.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/8/2006 22:23:26
Thanks man. I ended up getting the Boston sub, It's not too bad, but, being in a bandpass box, accuracy leaves a little to be desired. But my ghetto little system is coming together.
swez on 10/9/2006 11:09:29
If this sub can handle a well designed ported box and you employ a good SS/IS filtering, it should sound pretty good on a clean amp.
Just remember this sub is pretty low on power handling. In a compact sealed box, you'll get best power handling, but less efficient than a vented/ported box.
FYI: One of the major down sides of a BP box, the first clue that woofer damage is pending, is a dead sub. They tend to be good SPL bangers at tuned frequency, but above and below the BP tuning range, signals are not easily detected and therefore, a damaged or blown sub is common.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/9/2006 22:14:23
I can hear distortion at the ss range, which I estimate at maybe 25hz. I have no test tones to really identify the range.
I plan on getting a different amp, a class D unit to match the specs of that sub/box configuration, while also pushing a Type E Alpine sub in a sealed box. I'm not sure whether to get a 10 or a 12.
It will need a good SS filter, I do plan on that, and possibly an external crossover or equalizer to really clean it out. I live subwoofer longevity.
My current amp is a complete pile, I need to replace it as soon as possible. I also need to find specs on the Boston sub.
One of the primary goals of my project is a low budget. This is to be a listening system for the time being, so I can put some focus to my home audio projects.
For the 400 peak lying through it's teeth watts, the Boston is doing great for 1 10 on SPL, I can't give you a number, but probably a fun little 90 or so, bus SQ is leaving a lot ot be desired.
Enter the Sealed Type E. Nothing too special before, but we used it in my exes car and it was pretty nice for the low price of $35. This will add SQ to my bass, which is my second priority after a good Class D with SS filtering matched up well with both subs at 2 Ohms.
All of this piled on the back seat and footwells of my ghetto hoopty bucket I'm doing well, amp, sub, Killer Monster Cables and deck for $160.
I'm running all 4 stock speakers, wired in parralel into the front channels of the internal amp at 8 Ohms. Keep's them haggard old babies from going kaput, and doesn't overpower the sub.
Good speakers and a 4 channel are my last priority, after a capacitor and better wiring for the battery and an 0/1 AWG Monster Kit.
Anyway, end long ramble, hope I used enough paragraphs.
swez on 10/9/2006 23:12:55
Good ramblings... I can read, comprehend and track what each sub-topic is and how to answer each. (good nuff bro, you're learning)
It would be good to use a SSF for your BP box as deep lows will be a problem, depending on the tuning points of the box to Boston sub. A variable SSF would be fine here: (25-40 Hz.) This SSF/crossover will not hinder performance on a sealed box much either. So, using a good Class D that can put out 400-500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms, should be very doable.
When cash flow permits, a nice 4 channel amp and some decent full range speakers would do ya proud. You might get by w/ a 2nd two channel for the front speakers and use the smaller amp for rear speakers.
OH, Boston sub... 400 watts Peak, am sure that's accurate for just a few seconds before "Thar she Blows" !!! SMILE
Lastly, just b/c we have a low budget for gear, that does not mean we cannot get some decent sound from a given system. It's more a matter of good planning up front and good install practices as we go. The better we understand the end goals, we have a good chance to obtain good integration as we build in piece-meal fashion.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/10/2006 02:53:03
When I finish, I want my target budget to b around $700. This will include all the amp cable, (I already have top of the line RCA's for F,R,and sub, even though I have no four channel). I also want a full crossover with adjustable sub, midbass, midrange, and treble, and an equalizer with all the same capabilities. Also, saving the pos amp I'm running to push a pair of 8's set up for midbass. I run low midbass volumes, so it would work.
Could you reccomend an amp with about those specs? I am partial to the Alpine MRP-M350, Do you think 350/1300@ 2 Ohms would do well? I want this amp to possibly push an Infinity Perfect for a seperate system plan in the future as well.
I can't find specs for the Boston anywhere. The model # is RS10.
Can you help me out man?
And BTW, I'm gentle on the Boston. I keep the gain halfway, bassboost 3/4, crossover at 50hz, bass cut on head unit at -7 thru -5, and I only listen to songs the sub can handle well, it loves itself some 30 hz bass hits, and since i listen to 90% rap, this gives me a lot to work with.
swez on 10/10/2006 16:11:06
I have looked for details on that Boston RS10 sub w/o much success either. All I have learned to date, is that's a 4 ohm sub, 175 watts RMS and seems well mated to sealed boxes of 0.5 - 0.75 cf. It's good for modest bass in a car or even HT applications. It also looks like they made a BP kit for it too. Have a look:
RS110B enclosed bandpass; 4ohm (1 coil); 10" RS woofer: 97-99 350 watts, $300.00/ea.
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/car/legacy_products.aspx
The way your BP box is setup now, some of the bass boost is being filtered out by the amps' LPF set point. Most amps use boost @ 45 Hz. Setting the LPF at 50 Hz., will attenuate several dB of bass below 50 Hz.
FYI: Consider testing this box at different LPF settings "AT LOW POWER" and try to determine the approximate tuning frequency range of this combo by listening for bass degradations. Here, a test tone CD (30,35,40, 45, 50, 55, 60 Hz.) will work and just listen for spikes in bass SPL. That will tell you approximately where the BP is tuned.
Alpine makes some nice products. A very nice package might include:
1. Alpine MRP-F450 as a full range, 4 channel amp for mids and highs
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPF450#Tab
2. Alpine MRP-M450 sub amp (solid bass @ 2 ohms)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPM450#Tab
3. Alpine MRP-M650 sub amp (more power and a few more features)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPM650#Tab
From there, it's just a matter of a solid EQ/Line Driver add on and some good speakers to go along with this pakage.
Alpine SWR-1242D subs are great products and a 12'' PORTED design can be tuned for some nice SPL bump in the 35-50 Hz., range. This sub handles a solid 500 watts RMS and is not very expensive either. Just need one sub to handle either amp too.
Since you'll not be running rear deck speakers, (just MB) the F450 can power them all and just add a 300 Hz., filter (F-Mods) to block out highs
to your MB drivers. That small amp you have now, may not be adequate to push them cleanly? You can even bridge the rear channels for even more MB punch if you wish.
Here, a pair of 8 ohm MB speakers can be used in parallel for maximum punch. They will need an enclosure to get the best performance from them as well. MB does not need to be stereo. At such low frequencies, we cannot detect stereo imaging well at frequecncies below ~500 Hz.
Comments?
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/10/2006 22:52:07
I dialed in my amp differently today, and I got it kickin crazy. I set the fader to the rear on the stockers, and turned the bass on the Head Unit to -0-. After that I turned down the bass boost, and the more I turned it down, the louder it got. That was weird. I turned down the gain, but I left the crossover the same. Sounds a lot better.
The amp I have now could work for midbass, as I keep MB levels low, as it is my least favorite band in music. High levels of MB throw off the low end punch I like, and I like quieter vocals.
A type R is not an option, as I run my subs in the passenger compartment, that enclosure would be huge.
I got to run, more later
swez on 10/11/2006 12:57:42
Hummm, strange how a little tweaking can produce such notable improvements. Strange how that Bass Boost feature worked out. Less is more in this case too huh? LOL
The Alpine R in sealed box or ported box is actually very compact for a 12" woofer:
» sealed box volume: 0.5-0.8
» ported box volume: 0.6-1.3
For ported, a 1.0 - 1.2 cf is minimal and the external enclosure space would be under 2.0 cf. Are you sure that's so big???
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/11/2006 19:34:49
I don't want the Type R for several reasons. For one, I only want to run maybe 3-400 RMS. For one, to save on my stock electrical system. For two, my liscence is a little suspended. Don't want to draw any attention, by the fuzz, or marks with screwdrivers. Thats a 500 RMS unit if i'm not mistaken.
With this 300 RMS, I want to push 2 subs. I've been running solo sub systems for a long time now, and I know the sound pressure isn't much more, but I want the impact of two seperate drivers. I miss the back massage and mirror shakin action of my first system, which was the only multi sub setup I've used.
Lastly, budget. At my prices, 12 Type E, $45, 12 inch Type S, $125. I just don't have the $80 difference. Again, when I'm finished with this setup, I want to be in the $700 range. I'm already at 160, and I want a pair of 8's, the Type E, Infinity plate speakers all around, a crossover/EQ, an 0/1 AWG Monster kit, capacitor, 4 channel and sub amps. Between my hookups at pawn shops, a nappy little shop and Ultimate Electronics, I can do this. Maybe $800
After this, I have a few home audio projects before I continue developing my car stereo. Also, nothing more than that untill I get my liscence. When all that is finished, I will start building my Comp. stereo.
I have a reputation for putting together awesome stereos for small amounts of money. And no "brown market" componets are used. I need to keep this rep for now before I build my dream system. At least I already have most my wiring for that project.
I built a system that consister of two bazooka CS subs in a Q logic bandpass box, two old crappy stock Toyota speakers,a 45wX4 Kenwood deck and NO amp that blew away my homie's 1400 watt Pioneer amp and bandpass Pyramid subs. Mind you he had nothing too special, but neither did I. I just make ghetto stuff work.
Again, any opinion on an MRP-M350?
swez on 10/11/2006 21:57:15
Got it and well said!
Yes, the M350 is up to the task at 2 ohms. If you like a coninatiuon of bunch and deep bass, consider a dual chambered enclosure. One is for deep lows and strong low bass, while the other chamber would be sealed for less deep bass and more punch. You can have both in this type of design.
Does this appeal to your interest?
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/13/2006 03:37:37
This sounds interesting. I've never heard of this, is it like a sealed box joined at the hip with a ported or bandpass box? This could be interesting in the future, but right noe I have neither tools/money for materials/desire to build such an enclosure, but I'm always a fan of anything you have to share.
By the way I have a usually pretty sharp vocab, but coninatiuon is on I've never heard. Pelase enlighten me on this.
Well aright, time for some articles.
swez on 10/13/2006 12:14:26
Yes, I do call out that configuration at times when 2 dissimilar subs are used for slightly different bass needs. We do this all the time in Pro stacks. (Typ. 18's for subs, 10-12's for upper bass & even MB apps)
In this case, your 12" Alpine could be ported for deep lows and the Boston 10 would be fine in a compact sealed design and cover the upper bass regions for you.
Yes, this is a "conjoined", (Joined at the hip) type application and if one is clever, (with design) you can use one larger box and incorporate a smaller one into it as well. One half is ported, while the other half contains a smaller sealed box.
Neat huh?
swez
Connotation: Can refer to positive or negative comparitives of same subject. An inferred adjective.
A negative connotation: "We only sell [used cars] on this lot".
Positive connotation: "We sell only gently {pre-owned} cars here".
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/14/2006 00:53:29
That does sound pretty sweet. Maybe when I get some Diamonds or Infinitys or something, but not for right now. I really do like that Boston though.
The Alpine is definitely not suitable for porting, my buddy from Ultimate were just discussing this earlier.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-fGN1E4QpbTy/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&tab=features_and_specs&i=500SWE1242#Tab
Besides, I have both boxes for the subs already.
What are some good brands for Eq's and crossovers? I have never used eitheir in any system I've installed, any suggestions?
Thanks man
shootuh
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/14/2006 01:30:29
By the way, here does one get an 18" from?
swez on 10/14/2006 11:14:37
There are many useful add on EQ's and EQ/Line Driver units out there. The best come from Audio Control. (Very high quality, versitile and pretty expensive too)
If you just want some basic EQ like 3-4 bands of mids and highs and parametric bass EQ, consider Clarion, Audiobahn, Kicker or Kenwood.
There are not a lot of 18's out there for car audio use. Kicker Solo X, Pyle (not recommended) and perhaps MTX have a few options. But these babies need lots of power and a very large enclosure to work well.
Most 18's are great in large format HT apps. However, many need a large box, consume a good deal of power and most are 4-8 ohm units. A Pro series 18 would be good as well. But here again, they are very expensive, take much power and few are lower than 8 ohms. Have a look here for a wide selection.
Eminence has been making Pro line drivers for many years and are most affordable too. The also make private lable drivers for other branded names. Have a look here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 20:19:16
Wow! Maybe some years down the road, but I will have to do some kind of 18" rig in the future. You're right, nothing under 8 Ohms. What if you ran the 18" in parallel with say, a couple of 2ohm subs, or something like that? Is there any way one would you give an amp a load that would make it to where you wouldn't need a 1000RMS @ 8 Ohm rated amp? That' pretty insane power these guys demand.
As for most of them being for live music use, some of my most fun builds were done with home audio gear. (by the way, I said fun, not effective) Home audio runs a pretty low wattage rating, so you can get some pretty high SPL with like a 250W peak amp. Effecient, but not the best.
So it looks like I'm "stuck" with the MRP M450. "Stuck" as in Ultimate discontinued the M350. I think I'll live, But It has an "Always Fuctioning" SS filter @ 15Hz. Taht sounds like I'ts a bit low, so I going to use a Harrison Labs F-mod 30hz High Pass to combat this. But, my question is, will this interact effectively with the Alpine's subsonic? I will be purchasing this amp either Friday or next week.
Do these Eq's have built in crossovers? About what price do they come in at? Does alpine make a similar unit? I want to use as much Alpine equipment as possible in this install, it's not neccessary, in fact I can't even come up with a good reason why besides " I want to." I think I have seen one in the past, but I'm not sure.
Man, I gotta have an 18............just not anytime soon
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 21:40:02
I was looking at the 20hz post on the board, and it gave me some thoughts....
Will using boxes towards the rearmost part of thr trunk and putting sound ports in the rear dash effectively maximize cabin space for a lower resonance frequencey? This post answers my Q's on why I havent been able to get a 20hz note stand out like it did in my Delta 88 Olds.
Say we take the Alpine and Boston, each their own sealed enclosure, place them facing towards the rear wall at the opposite corners of the vehicle, and put a large slotted soundport right up against the back seat through the rear deck, could this be effective or would it just act as a massive bandpass enclosure with an excessively large vented side?
Say this works, would it be better to maximize the trunk side's volume, putting it up to the back seat, or maximize the cabin's space, putting, the sound port as close to the rear glass as possible. Of course, this all would reqire some crazy trunk sealing, but this has now facinated me. This is what I want to do. I don't care what I have to do to make It work.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 21:46:11
Also, would said sound port be tuneable?
swez on 10/15/2006 22:26:26
In all reality, we cannot truely hear a pur 20 Hz., tone. We here its harmonics but feel the pressure waves if enough SPL is available. The typical human hearing does not accurately pick up pure bass tones below about 32 Hz. On the high ranges, 16 to 18 Khz., is about the average limits for a 30 something male. (women and children tend to have better acquity for highs. Men, generally do not)
When trunk mounting subs, if we open up ports into the main cabin, we have basically created a form of BP enclosure. The area of the holes, (ports of a sort) and the area of the cabin control what frequencies are boosted or cut.
As for where to mount the sub enclosures, some careful positioning will give you the sweet spot. Some are mid-trunk while others are far toward the rear bumper or butted to the rear seat backs. Try several positions and determine the location that works best.
As for EQ and crossovers in one package... I prefer to separate each function as it's difficult to get 2 good units in one pakage that are fully usable. Most good amps have more than adequate HP/LP filtering. If a SSF is needed, F-Mods are a good choice as they are modular and act like "active filters" b/c they are located before the amplifiers in the signal chain.
The 30 Hz HP (SSF) is a good choice for most car and home installs. In Pro sound, we may go to 20 - 25 Hz., and use 4th order filters as needed. (-48dB/oct slopes) This is almost always using 15 or 18" subs.
Speaking of 18" subs... a long, hard search will probably find a few 4 ohm subs in that size. Most Pro woofers will be SVC, 8 ohm drivers and need very large ported boxes. These are great for larger format HT applications. In a car, 15's are pretty much the norm.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 23:57:21
Do you think thus trunk situation would work though? The main thing I would be worried about is maintaining accuracy of the subs, since bandpassing is not my goal.
I have learned, in any enclosure , running too big of a box or too big of a port puts the subwoofer in a free air situation.
So what I'm thinking based on that, I have a pretty large trunk. If I cut slot in the rear deck, say 2-4 inches in to it starting flush with the back seat, the entire width of the interior, a port that reaches down into the trunk, make a large enough "ported enclosure" that the sealed subs are in to where bandpassing doesn't occur, but instead increaces "cabin space" in a way that the resonance frequency is lower based on the stament you made on the other post that a bigger cabin results in a lower resonance point?
here we are..... dual 2 ohm JL 18"
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0106cae_jl_18w3_car_audio_subwoofer/
I want one.......sure its not wery accurate, but I just want to say I have an 18"
swez on 10/16/2006 13:25:20
Sure, it will work as mentioned. However, some of our previous readers used sealed box designs and then cut a pass through hole in the rear deck for bass to better enter the main cabin. It seemed to work very well for them, especially when they used sealed box designs.
One guy did a lot of position testing in his Lumina and found the best bass was noted when he set the box in the middle of the trunk, firing to the rear and noted very good bass in the main cabin this way. If I recall it right, he used a pair of Alpine SWR 10's and Alpine's 300 & 600 watt RMS amps. Both gave strong bass, but the M605 was just a tad louder.
Using a sealed box gave him very good woofer cone control and a gentle rolloff slope on bass below 45 Hz. He got good punch for Rock and smooth low for Jazz and such too. The pass through vent allowed much more bass to pass into the cabin for more bass SPL and very good bass clarity as well.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 16:10:01
Hmmmm...A lumina? Sweet. Same chassis design as my ride. I have soundported a rear deck before, but this was the port straight from the box, no air moved through the trunk. Still, the fabrication shouldn't be too difficult or expensive, I'll just do it at work and put some blue grillecloth over it so the parents aren't like "why did you hack the car to pieces? Is there any way to make for a lower rolloff point? I want my SPL to peak out at the absolute lowest end of the bass frequencies.
I just can't put subs in a sealed trunk. What a waste. Might as well buy a half full botle of liquor while your at the issue of waste.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 16:14:20
BTW, can you shoot me a link for that post? I would like to study it for reference
swez on 10/16/2006 17:39:55
It was like 2 years ago that we did this project together. He, (Ogetnom 27) did the hole in the center of his rear deck. It was pretty large and he has to reinforce the deck liner material as it billowed in and out with the bass notes. (yeah... like that!)
If you used only the port output from your sub enclosure as the pass through, the only bass you will hear from it, will be the tuning frequency of the port and a few Hz., either side of same. For better bass range, DO NOT USE PORT ONLY for interior cabin bass. It will dissapoint you for sure!
Half a bottle of hooch is better than none... but in this case, we both want a full bottle right? So, use the pass through vent with a ported box of your tuning needs, (35 Hz., is a very good place to shoot for tuning) and allow everything to pass from trunk, into your cabin. That may mean adjusting the location of the box, as it sits inside the trunk.
Comments?
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 20:33:22
I wasn't planning to use just the port of an enclosure on this build, I had just done that with my old Toyota. It was a Bandpass enclosure, and the sound port came right through the rear deck. since I'm usually broke, I cut up an old floormat and relined the rear deck so it didn't look so messy.
It sounded pretty sweet, but the port niose seemed bad to me. Most of my buddies couldn,' hear it even when they were listening for it but it bothered me a little. Not too bad, but any imperfection can make me go crazy. My first enclosure build, I say it was a success overall.
The box was ugly, but it was awesome. Loudest 10" I have ever heard (at least installed in a car, not in a demo room though) and was amazingly accurate for a BP enclosure. It had trouble getting the tone correct all the time, but it never missed a note. The driver was an Infinity Reference 1042W.
I miss the accuracy of two sealed subs, but have not ran a similar rig since my first setup in my Delta 88. Total budget: $85. I ran two ESX 10" subs-$20, a 100X4 Alpine amp-$30, (bridged of course,) (sorry profanity) Rampage 35X4 deck-$35 and stock speakers. I heve never seen that brand of subs before or since. This sounded awesome, although it broke a lot of the rules I use now while installing. Actually all except for one.
I looked at the rear deck and came up with my game plan. There is four litle holes in the center of the rear deck, about 2"x 3". each hole has a similar sized of steel forming a cross in between them.
If I cut out said cross, I will have an approx 6x12 pass through. I only need to cut through a few inces of steelNot as appealing as a 4" thick slot the whole width of the vehicle, but It'll work. That will not work, as the speaker holes and trunk hinges would interfere with this
Do you remember what material your freind used to reinforce the rear deck? I figured I would have to do this today, when I looked at how I wanted to do this and saw the hinges, the "precut" holes and FLIMSY materail of the rear deck. It looks like some kind of cardboard, or super weak low density particle board. Like people in Iraq, it needs reinforcements.
My last question, about how long will the pass through's port need to be? Will it even need one? Longer is lower when it comes to tuning right? Again, since I want to run a pair of sealed subs, a tuned ported enclosure is not an option, expecially since I'm considering using a pair of Type E's, and eitheir "scrapping" the Boston for Home Audio use, or saying the dirty version of might as well, running 3 subs, leaving the boston in the passenger rear footwell.
A little off topic, what's your juice? Well I guess that was my last question. Thanks again for all the help, and listening to my ramblings, sometimes I wander into the tar pits like Brownstone.
swez on 10/16/2006 22:52:36
Hummm, since this "vent" is not tuned, it is just a pass through for air pressure and sound waves. The more surface area used, the more it will allow bass to come into the cabin. (Vent area matters) How much is enough to be effective? I really don't know best answer on that. Trial and error is about the best I can tell ya for now.
As for a material that can be used to support the cloth covering, I would think that Pegboard might be a good option. It's masonite, thin and fairly rigid too. To get more air through, consider boring a pattern of 1" holes, (evenly spaced) to get good air flow through it, but enough surface area to use 3M spray adhesive to hold the cloth firmly onto the masonite substrate. The trick is enough large holes to allow bass waves to pass freely w/o extranious noise.
Does that make sense to you?
swez
PS Avoid the tar pits. I have lost many old buddies in them. If you see Brownstone in there... help him out OK? LOL
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 23:13:44
So should I cut the large hole in the center, and also put in the 1" holes in? What if I took off the cheap stuff, cut the vent, and glue the fabric directely onto the metal? I really don't feel like making a whole rear deck, that's a lot of measuring and cutting I neither feel comfortable with nor have the tools for.
As for tar pits, I'll stay away, and if I see Mr B. I got his back
thanks again
swez on 10/16/2006 23:42:52
If you cut a large area hole in the rear deck and just used the normal cloth to cover it, it will billow and flap with bass waves. But if you wanted to make a nice looking grill cover, you can buy sheet steel products at Home Depot, (or similar) that are both decorative and functional too.
Have seen some neat looking patterns for screen doors and such there and if you built a nice frame for it, bet it would look cool, work well and solve some of the issues too. Not overly expensive either as I recall either.
Also, consider using standard size air duct covers. (You know, the metal ones used in homes for cold air returns and such) They come in many shapes and sizes and can be covered with opaque cloth that has a very open weave. Here, some spray adhesive will do nice to hold the fabric in place and you can always use slicone adhesive to hold it in place and prevent rattles.
What say you?
swez
PS Do you have Yahoo IM? Maybe we can hook up there sometime and chat off this board. My YIM ID is: "swezdp" Get a mike and headphones and we can yak it up for free. I am inviting you into my inner circle of web buddies. Care to pick up the call?
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 23:51:51
Sure man, I'm honored. I'll download that asap. I planned on cutting away the stock fabric antway and installing a grille cover in it's place. I like the screen door frame idea, I work in a window shop, I should have thought of that sooner. I'm going to do this as soon as I get an extra 6' of sub cable and a metal blade for the shop's skillsaw. I bet It'll look pretty sweet too.
swez on 10/17/2006 00:09:23
There ya go... a perfect job for this one since you already know the concept and have the right tools handy. Just make sure the grill cover is rigid enough not to resonate or you'll have to add some "X" supports to stiffen it up.
Yeah, it would be good to YIM chat and toss ideas about. It's not really an honor or an exclusive club thingy... just a better way to exchange ideas in real time. In fact, the honor is all mine. Have just learned to be more selective about chatting buddies is all. I reserve that time for clients and a few special friends. It's a great way to get to know others too.
See ya on YIM,
swez
Get YIM chat started here:
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 00:40:32
Actually I don't make the screens, I seal the sides of the window, but I'll get the boss to help out. Luckily I've known the boss a lot longer than I've known the job....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 00:41:42
I'l have to take you up on tha chat later though, I gotta work at 6 am.
swez on 10/17/2006 03:23:37
Another time is fine... just look around the shop and see what ideas your boss can come up with for the pass through grating system. I would think a 5.0-6.0 ft^2 vent would be plenty.
See ya on YIM,
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 22:09:14
The boss isn't coming up with any Ideas, but thats fine, I got the Idea, I just need help making the screen. I don't know how to assemble them. In fact, I'm not sure if anybody at the shop does with all the remakes we do. I'm going to cut the hole first, so I can properly measure the cover.
swez on 10/18/2006 05:14:27
I spoke with my old contact on how he did his cover support. It was a plastic lattice type sheet goods he used as a substrate, to cover the large vent hole he cut out in the deck lid of his Lumina. He then glued the fabric to the the plastic lattice after it was installed and that was it.
He is now planning on a pair of Alpine SWR-1222D's in a sealed box, for his Expedition, powered by a Kenwood KAC-9102D amp and using a Parametric EQ/Line Driver, (Audiobahn AEQ7) to keep HU voltages up to feed his amps.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/18/2006 20:56:35
Sweet. I probably wont need to use this, since I'm cutting away the fabric anyway, but just in case this is good to know. Probably going to do the cut on Friday or Saturday, and build the vent screen on Monday, provided I still have a job. I don't want it to look srock, as my car is my "demo vehicle" for my on the side installation business.
swez on 10/20/2006 19:41:12
As you wish Sir.... do it well!
swez
1. Is there any to measure square waves and clipping without a sine wave analyser? And if not where could I rent/Buy such equipment and for what cost?
2. I'm sure it's common sence things, but what do you guys keep calling the Big 3? I feel stupid for asking, but I need to know the lingo around here.
3. I would love some opinions on high performance 10" in the sub $300 range. I'm partial to Infinity Perfect VQ's and Diamond Audio D3's, but second opinions are always good. If it's sold out of Ulimate Electronics, even better.
4. Anybody ever run a Boston Rally Series 10" in a bandpass enclosure? I'm considerind getting a set like that on Friday, but would like some knowlegde on the sub first. I put a Generator 10" in My exes ride and it was awesome, but this is a different model and the box was sealed..........mmmmm obsessive uncertaity.
5. Swez, how you keed your audio pimpin hand so strong? I've read a few of your posts, your a genuis man.
Thanks guys,
Curtis
Replies (51)
MrBrownstone on 10/3/2006 23:39:06
I'll try to help you with the easiest first.
#2 Big 3
Your electrical system is like a water system. The size of the wire dictates the resistance...and subsequently, the width of the water pipe.
The only source is the alternator. The battery is the water tower. It stores power, but the water pump (alternator) fills it up.
If you upgrade the factory wire running from the alternator to the battery, more water can flow in that direction. However, on the flipside, if you don't upgrade the wire running from the body of the vehicle to the battery, it's like having a hose with a kink in it. Lastly, upgrading the alternator to chassis.
Batt + to Alternator
Batt - to the chassis
Alternator - to the chassis
#3 speaker selection
How you plan on using your audio system dictates which woofer to select. You get 3 choices in subwoofer system design.
100% SQ (accurate reproduction of sound)
100% SPL (how loud)
75% of one, and 25% of the other.
You can't have it 50/50. Either you have a 1/2-arsed sounding system that is loud, or you have a nice sounding system that is reasonably loud.
Both woofers you mentioned will work equally well...it's the box design and the installation of your system the determine how to get the most out of your speakers.
4. Bandpass Boston RS
I think the question should be answered in #3 before spending a lot of time on this one. For a little about the box design, check this out first:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes4.asp#5
5. Swez
Swez is a dinosaur. He was one of the first people to use fire. He had the 1st indoor outhouse in his neighborhood. And, he was one of the first guys to participate in research studies on Viagra, Propecia, as well as PENICILLIN
What I'm saying is, he is old. Also, his 'pimpin hand'?...I can't comment other than his advanced degree in fishing.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/3/2006 23:57:42
Sweet dude. That's what I figured you meant by the big three, but I had to check. My buddy and I are going to do it with 0 gauge Monster stuff, as soon as we get off our lazy butts, and I get a worthy system. As for the boston, I'm just wondereing if anybody has run such a setup and how it did. I'm not building any boxes till I finalize my plans for my comp system. But when I do I'm going all out. The Boston is an oppotunistic thing at a pawn shop that owes me store credit. It's already mounted in a subzero bandpass box, labeled at $80. So the price is definetly right When the time comes though I'm thinking a pair of D3 12 with the matching amp, (I'm not sure of the model) or perfect 10 DVQ's with a pair of MRP-M350 Alpines. I'm trying to peice evrything together slowly, because I'm a broke@$$ Either way im thinking one sealed box in the backseat or rear footwell, and one bandpass in the trunk, soundported through the back dash, tuned at 30 and 60hz, with either kappa or D3 (D9's if I come across a small fortune) componet sets all around. And a different car to put it in. The bucket runs good, but it got NO style. At least the Five-0 never notices me. And anybody, clipping, squarewave test with out sinewave analyser?
MrBrownstone on 10/4/2006 00:19:51
At any rate, try to design your system and not purchase equipment based upon availability. No sense of getting a good deal on worthless crap, right?
What is the need for #1? www.termpro.com (db drag forum) is a good place for resources on that. Of course, why buy nice sounding subs like you mentioned? They are not designed for that type of application...should you be competing in that arena.
swez on 10/4/2006 10:20:01
Thanks for the props Shoot...
The Signal analyzer to use is a 2 channel Oscilloscope. These are not cheap and takes some time to get used to working with them. With this tool, we can monitor input signals from an audio source and observe the wave form integrity and amplitude on channel 1 and then flip to channel 2 where the amp output signal is measured.
Channel 2 will give us an identical wave form as Channel 1 shows, but the scale used for measuring will be at a higher voltage settings, depending on the amp used.
With a good O-scope, we can measure frequency, amplitude and observe wave form distortions due to clipping. (if any) The goal is to get maximum amplitude readings off the amp outputs without clipping.
FYI: Here, we often use a calibrated signal tone generator for precise input and tone purity. We also use non-inductive dummy load resistors as the amplifier load. The dummy loads have to take enough power and supply the targeted ohmic load range we expect to use on a given amplifer. (It may mean a bank of high powered resistors in series/parallel configuration to dissapate the power from a given amp)
Yes, I am from the Jurassic period and therefore older than dirt. After that many years of hanging around on Mother Earth, some do pick up a few things along the way.
Mr. B. is a much younger dino and is just now entering his prime. I have to keep a close eye on him at times as he is prone to wander off from the pod and get stuck in a tar pit. LOL
swez COFFEE
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/4/2006 15:30:06
Thanks for the help guys. As of right now, I have an amp that seems to be damaging subs, but I never turn the gain past half. I know clean power wont cause square wave, but I cant figure out the problem. Hey Swez, Ever hear a Boston rally series in an bandpass setup, and if so, how did they do. I'm not shooting for a comp stereo yet...Hell I'm still using internal powere from my deck. Ahhhhh brokeness. Thanks again guys
swez on 10/4/2006 18:36:13
Am not familiar with that sub and I rarely suggest BP boxes unless the guy is strictly going SPL and knows EXACTLY whet they are doing for the peak tuning node.
Looks like this sub is pretty low power for modest power amps. (175 watts RMS) Frankly, that $80.00 could be used for something a bit more robust.
Tell more about your present sub, box and amp. Make and model #'s with links are good nuff.
It seems like you are looking for a solid bass engine here for your "Hoopty"? The trick is to use a high efficiency sub(s), a sealed or ported enclosure, tuned to the music ya like best.
Also, since this is a trunk mount system, upper bass will be minimal and deep lows will dominate in all but very compact sealed enclosures. The only way to work around that, would be to remove your rear speakers and use those holes to pass bass into the cabin.
Here, a pair of surface mount 6x9" boxes, (rear window decking) and get your rear stage mids and highs this way. If done well, this may look a bit ghetto... but as for sound, yes... a good staging option.
1992 Buick LeSabre, BIGGIE Hoopty Ghetto ride LOL What the heck is a Hoopty ride anyway? I live near Detroit and should know that one by now.
http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/comments.php?id=3282_0_7_0_C
Nevermind, I now qualify as a "Bonified Hoopty Car Owner" as do most GM car owners made before 1999 and look like they have been through a long tour of duty in Iraq. Hummm, is there such a thing as a "Hoopty person"? If yes, I might qualify for addition Clubb benefits?
swez
PS It's not the cost or quality of the vehicles we drive... it's more about what we can get away with as Hoopty Car drivers. I have no problems going toe to toe with a Lexus, Mercedes or Beemers in a grudge match for freeway merging rights.
If they don't get outta da friggin' way, am not opposed to "push the envelope" with them one bit. Big guy... Big Beater and with a big attitude toward snooty, Primo car drivers. Care to swap some paint? LOL
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/4/2006 20:15:47
Hoopty aplies to an American 4-door that looks ghetto, you should know that livind by Detriot expecially.
Curenntly I'm running a Profile Baja amp, but I'm not sure of the model number because the paint is scraped off right there, but it was $20, so I snagged it to replace my amp with damaged RCA terminals.
The sub is a Profile BX10 which is the worst sounding sub I have ever heard. I'm returning the BX10 so I can get the Boston paid for mostly on store credit. IPawn shops don't have a good selection, and I'm not giving up that store credit. I'm looking for a good listening system for now.
I'm currentIly running a CDA9807 head unit and I love it. Just replaced my JVC EL Kameleon LX-300 and it blows it out of the water.
I have done a back dash sound port in the back dash of a Toyota Cressida I had, We used an Infinity Reference 1042w in that setup, it was bad as all hell. I DO NOT put anything in a sealed trunk, I'll bust out a sound port or put it in the back seat before that. Lost bass effeciency equals lost sleep at night. I have two main rules in my car, Bass over Space, and Beats over Heat. I When I sold the Bandpass Infinity setup to my buddy when I moved to Why?oming, People around there thought it was two 15"s. Fools up there have never heard a good stereo. I Almost had to brawl a guy who was trying to convince me Pioneer was the best stuff out there, and I got into a heated argument with a worker at the local Auto Zone who was trying to convince me no matter what the amp, it will never need more than 12 ga power and ground cable. Rediculous.
As for the surface boxes, I'm not planning to use the rear deak as a sound stage for my highs and mids, I'm considering the rear doors instead.
As for the Hoopty Club, i guess I only meet the quaified by the fix a flat. I'm not aware of another one, but there should be one, let's start one. I love showing fools up in their ricegrinders in my bucket, nothing like the poster grandpa car embarrassing some clown in his hopped up little Civic. I live to embarass Honda Drivers, and will do so at every atvantage. As for the Luxo-cruisers, those cars come with a special drivers liscence that lets you do whatever the hell you please. I found that out when my brother got a 740 Bimmer. Gotta get that liscence, becaude all I got now is the CrackerJack box permit after all my speeding tickets......
MrBrownstone on 10/4/2006 22:40:29
Can I buy a paragraph :-)
swez on 10/4/2006 23:54:17
Actually, I like to loan Shoot about 6-8 paragraphs so as we can read all that stuff a bit easier. GRIN (Use that enter button dude please...) These eyes ain't as young as yours and it tough reading all text and no spaces.
Yeah, that 92 LeSabre... Hoopty Ghetto Cruiser will still get along pretty well with a 3.8 V6 and 205 HP too. It's a bit heavy, but the engine and tranny still get the job done, even when the paint is falling off and interior fabric is looking pretty poor. But, what the hey... it's good work transportation. Can haul a lot of tools and stuff in it when needed. The trunk is big enough to fit 3 large bodies in there.
If a nice car or truck is needed, pick one:
1. 2000 Lincoln Town Car (Classy Chassis)
2. 2004 E-150 Conversion Van (Pimp-mobile)
3. 2006 F-350 Turbo Diesel Dually (Haul some serious junk around)
It seems like a car lot in the driveway and the garage rarely sees a vehicle until winter sets in. The Lincoln gets the garage, the Dually and Van head for Florida and so do I when possible.
Ya know, a guy can get used to semi-retirement if one can stay busy enough to fend off boredom and poverty. What a life huh? D'oh
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 15:15:28
Sorry about that guys, I will use the enter button
You almost seem to be describing my Buick, especially the issue of the paint falling off and interior looking like crap. My car's been in the family for a while, it was my crazy packrat great aunts car when it was purchased new. Now my young @$$ is driving the wheels off it., But mine is the century, smallish trunk, two bodies max, maybe three if hacked into pieces......
You selling these cars? Winter in Florida?
swez on 10/5/2006 17:19:16
The Conversion Van is loaded and will be sold while in Florida. Up in MICH, demand for such trucks are minimal and for every 2 peeps who can afford it here, (~$30,000) there are 30 in FL that would like such a vehicle.
The Lincoln get's garaged every winter and is also a FLorida car. It's never seen a MI winter on the road.
The F-350 is the towing monster for the family 37 foot 5th wheeler.
Basically, we have an expensive toy shop/lot going on here. It's nuts and time to off a few things to make room for new toys next year.
Sigh... Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 20:05:55
Way too rich for my blood, Even though I do hold a special place in my heart for Lincolns. My first car was an 87 Mark VII. Besides, I'm thinking about an early Ninties Benz station wagon. I've never owned wagon, hatchback or SUV style body types, and I like the thought of the cabin gain involved. Plus the style of a Benzwagon's nameplate alone could change my marital status. Plus I'm way sick of bypassing back seats and rear decks for sound ports, wiring, ect.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/5/2006 20:14:48
Oh yeah, where could I acquire one of them newfangdangled Oscillomascopes at? I had heard of it before i talked to you, but wouldn't have the first clue of where to look
swez on 10/6/2006 05:59:02
Electronic flea markets for Ham radio operators would be a good place to look and perhaps e-bay.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/8/2006 22:23:26
Thanks man. I ended up getting the Boston sub, It's not too bad, but, being in a bandpass box, accuracy leaves a little to be desired. But my ghetto little system is coming together.
swez on 10/9/2006 11:09:29
If this sub can handle a well designed ported box and you employ a good SS/IS filtering, it should sound pretty good on a clean amp.
Just remember this sub is pretty low on power handling. In a compact sealed box, you'll get best power handling, but less efficient than a vented/ported box.
FYI: One of the major down sides of a BP box, the first clue that woofer damage is pending, is a dead sub. They tend to be good SPL bangers at tuned frequency, but above and below the BP tuning range, signals are not easily detected and therefore, a damaged or blown sub is common.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/9/2006 22:14:23
I can hear distortion at the ss range, which I estimate at maybe 25hz. I have no test tones to really identify the range.
I plan on getting a different amp, a class D unit to match the specs of that sub/box configuration, while also pushing a Type E Alpine sub in a sealed box. I'm not sure whether to get a 10 or a 12.
It will need a good SS filter, I do plan on that, and possibly an external crossover or equalizer to really clean it out. I live subwoofer longevity.
My current amp is a complete pile, I need to replace it as soon as possible. I also need to find specs on the Boston sub.
One of the primary goals of my project is a low budget. This is to be a listening system for the time being, so I can put some focus to my home audio projects.
For the 400 peak lying through it's teeth watts, the Boston is doing great for 1 10 on SPL, I can't give you a number, but probably a fun little 90 or so, bus SQ is leaving a lot ot be desired.
Enter the Sealed Type E. Nothing too special before, but we used it in my exes car and it was pretty nice for the low price of $35. This will add SQ to my bass, which is my second priority after a good Class D with SS filtering matched up well with both subs at 2 Ohms.
All of this piled on the back seat and footwells of my ghetto hoopty bucket I'm doing well, amp, sub, Killer Monster Cables and deck for $160.
I'm running all 4 stock speakers, wired in parralel into the front channels of the internal amp at 8 Ohms. Keep's them haggard old babies from going kaput, and doesn't overpower the sub.
Good speakers and a 4 channel are my last priority, after a capacitor and better wiring for the battery and an 0/1 AWG Monster Kit.
Anyway, end long ramble, hope I used enough paragraphs.
swez on 10/9/2006 23:12:55
Good ramblings... I can read, comprehend and track what each sub-topic is and how to answer each. (good nuff bro, you're learning)
It would be good to use a SSF for your BP box as deep lows will be a problem, depending on the tuning points of the box to Boston sub. A variable SSF would be fine here: (25-40 Hz.) This SSF/crossover will not hinder performance on a sealed box much either. So, using a good Class D that can put out 400-500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms, should be very doable.
When cash flow permits, a nice 4 channel amp and some decent full range speakers would do ya proud. You might get by w/ a 2nd two channel for the front speakers and use the smaller amp for rear speakers.
OH, Boston sub... 400 watts Peak, am sure that's accurate for just a few seconds before "Thar she Blows" !!! SMILE
Lastly, just b/c we have a low budget for gear, that does not mean we cannot get some decent sound from a given system. It's more a matter of good planning up front and good install practices as we go. The better we understand the end goals, we have a good chance to obtain good integration as we build in piece-meal fashion.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/10/2006 02:53:03
When I finish, I want my target budget to b around $700. This will include all the amp cable, (I already have top of the line RCA's for F,R,and sub, even though I have no four channel). I also want a full crossover with adjustable sub, midbass, midrange, and treble, and an equalizer with all the same capabilities. Also, saving the pos amp I'm running to push a pair of 8's set up for midbass. I run low midbass volumes, so it would work.
Could you reccomend an amp with about those specs? I am partial to the Alpine MRP-M350, Do you think 350/1300@ 2 Ohms would do well? I want this amp to possibly push an Infinity Perfect for a seperate system plan in the future as well.
I can't find specs for the Boston anywhere. The model # is RS10.
Can you help me out man?
And BTW, I'm gentle on the Boston. I keep the gain halfway, bassboost 3/4, crossover at 50hz, bass cut on head unit at -7 thru -5, and I only listen to songs the sub can handle well, it loves itself some 30 hz bass hits, and since i listen to 90% rap, this gives me a lot to work with.
swez on 10/10/2006 16:11:06
I have looked for details on that Boston RS10 sub w/o much success either. All I have learned to date, is that's a 4 ohm sub, 175 watts RMS and seems well mated to sealed boxes of 0.5 - 0.75 cf. It's good for modest bass in a car or even HT applications. It also looks like they made a BP kit for it too. Have a look:
RS110B enclosed bandpass; 4ohm (1 coil); 10" RS woofer: 97-99 350 watts, $300.00/ea.
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/car/legacy_products.aspx
The way your BP box is setup now, some of the bass boost is being filtered out by the amps' LPF set point. Most amps use boost @ 45 Hz. Setting the LPF at 50 Hz., will attenuate several dB of bass below 50 Hz.
FYI: Consider testing this box at different LPF settings "AT LOW POWER" and try to determine the approximate tuning frequency range of this combo by listening for bass degradations. Here, a test tone CD (30,35,40, 45, 50, 55, 60 Hz.) will work and just listen for spikes in bass SPL. That will tell you approximately where the BP is tuned.
Alpine makes some nice products. A very nice package might include:
1. Alpine MRP-F450 as a full range, 4 channel amp for mids and highs
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPF450#Tab
2. Alpine MRP-M450 sub amp (solid bass @ 2 ohms)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPM450#Tab
3. Alpine MRP-M650 sub amp (more power and a few more features)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vgujaRyq6Mq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=detailed_info&i=500MRPM650#Tab
From there, it's just a matter of a solid EQ/Line Driver add on and some good speakers to go along with this pakage.
Alpine SWR-1242D subs are great products and a 12'' PORTED design can be tuned for some nice SPL bump in the 35-50 Hz., range. This sub handles a solid 500 watts RMS and is not very expensive either. Just need one sub to handle either amp too.
Since you'll not be running rear deck speakers, (just MB) the F450 can power them all and just add a 300 Hz., filter (F-Mods) to block out highs
to your MB drivers. That small amp you have now, may not be adequate to push them cleanly? You can even bridge the rear channels for even more MB punch if you wish.
Here, a pair of 8 ohm MB speakers can be used in parallel for maximum punch. They will need an enclosure to get the best performance from them as well. MB does not need to be stereo. At such low frequencies, we cannot detect stereo imaging well at frequecncies below ~500 Hz.
Comments?
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/10/2006 22:52:07
I dialed in my amp differently today, and I got it kickin crazy. I set the fader to the rear on the stockers, and turned the bass on the Head Unit to -0-. After that I turned down the bass boost, and the more I turned it down, the louder it got. That was weird. I turned down the gain, but I left the crossover the same. Sounds a lot better.
The amp I have now could work for midbass, as I keep MB levels low, as it is my least favorite band in music. High levels of MB throw off the low end punch I like, and I like quieter vocals.
A type R is not an option, as I run my subs in the passenger compartment, that enclosure would be huge.
I got to run, more later
swez on 10/11/2006 12:57:42
Hummm, strange how a little tweaking can produce such notable improvements. Strange how that Bass Boost feature worked out. Less is more in this case too huh? LOL
The Alpine R in sealed box or ported box is actually very compact for a 12" woofer:
» sealed box volume: 0.5-0.8
» ported box volume: 0.6-1.3
For ported, a 1.0 - 1.2 cf is minimal and the external enclosure space would be under 2.0 cf. Are you sure that's so big???
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/11/2006 19:34:49
I don't want the Type R for several reasons. For one, I only want to run maybe 3-400 RMS. For one, to save on my stock electrical system. For two, my liscence is a little suspended. Don't want to draw any attention, by the fuzz, or marks with screwdrivers. Thats a 500 RMS unit if i'm not mistaken.
With this 300 RMS, I want to push 2 subs. I've been running solo sub systems for a long time now, and I know the sound pressure isn't much more, but I want the impact of two seperate drivers. I miss the back massage and mirror shakin action of my first system, which was the only multi sub setup I've used.
Lastly, budget. At my prices, 12 Type E, $45, 12 inch Type S, $125. I just don't have the $80 difference. Again, when I'm finished with this setup, I want to be in the $700 range. I'm already at 160, and I want a pair of 8's, the Type E, Infinity plate speakers all around, a crossover/EQ, an 0/1 AWG Monster kit, capacitor, 4 channel and sub amps. Between my hookups at pawn shops, a nappy little shop and Ultimate Electronics, I can do this. Maybe $800
After this, I have a few home audio projects before I continue developing my car stereo. Also, nothing more than that untill I get my liscence. When all that is finished, I will start building my Comp. stereo.
I have a reputation for putting together awesome stereos for small amounts of money. And no "brown market" componets are used. I need to keep this rep for now before I build my dream system. At least I already have most my wiring for that project.
I built a system that consister of two bazooka CS subs in a Q logic bandpass box, two old crappy stock Toyota speakers,a 45wX4 Kenwood deck and NO amp that blew away my homie's 1400 watt Pioneer amp and bandpass Pyramid subs. Mind you he had nothing too special, but neither did I. I just make ghetto stuff work.
Again, any opinion on an MRP-M350?
swez on 10/11/2006 21:57:15
Got it and well said!
Yes, the M350 is up to the task at 2 ohms. If you like a coninatiuon of bunch and deep bass, consider a dual chambered enclosure. One is for deep lows and strong low bass, while the other chamber would be sealed for less deep bass and more punch. You can have both in this type of design.
Does this appeal to your interest?
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/13/2006 03:37:37
This sounds interesting. I've never heard of this, is it like a sealed box joined at the hip with a ported or bandpass box? This could be interesting in the future, but right noe I have neither tools/money for materials/desire to build such an enclosure, but I'm always a fan of anything you have to share.
By the way I have a usually pretty sharp vocab, but coninatiuon is on I've never heard. Pelase enlighten me on this.
Well aright, time for some articles.
swez on 10/13/2006 12:14:26
Yes, I do call out that configuration at times when 2 dissimilar subs are used for slightly different bass needs. We do this all the time in Pro stacks. (Typ. 18's for subs, 10-12's for upper bass & even MB apps)
In this case, your 12" Alpine could be ported for deep lows and the Boston 10 would be fine in a compact sealed design and cover the upper bass regions for you.
Yes, this is a "conjoined", (Joined at the hip) type application and if one is clever, (with design) you can use one larger box and incorporate a smaller one into it as well. One half is ported, while the other half contains a smaller sealed box.
Neat huh?
swez
Connotation: Can refer to positive or negative comparitives of same subject. An inferred adjective.
A negative connotation: "We only sell [used cars] on this lot".
Positive connotation: "We sell only gently {pre-owned} cars here".
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/14/2006 00:53:29
That does sound pretty sweet. Maybe when I get some Diamonds or Infinitys or something, but not for right now. I really do like that Boston though.
The Alpine is definitely not suitable for porting, my buddy from Ultimate were just discussing this earlier.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-fGN1E4QpbTy/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&tab=features_and_specs&i=500SWE1242#Tab
Besides, I have both boxes for the subs already.
What are some good brands for Eq's and crossovers? I have never used eitheir in any system I've installed, any suggestions?
Thanks man
shootuh
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/14/2006 01:30:29
By the way, here does one get an 18" from?
swez on 10/14/2006 11:14:37
There are many useful add on EQ's and EQ/Line Driver units out there. The best come from Audio Control. (Very high quality, versitile and pretty expensive too)
If you just want some basic EQ like 3-4 bands of mids and highs and parametric bass EQ, consider Clarion, Audiobahn, Kicker or Kenwood.
There are not a lot of 18's out there for car audio use. Kicker Solo X, Pyle (not recommended) and perhaps MTX have a few options. But these babies need lots of power and a very large enclosure to work well.
Most 18's are great in large format HT apps. However, many need a large box, consume a good deal of power and most are 4-8 ohm units. A Pro series 18 would be good as well. But here again, they are very expensive, take much power and few are lower than 8 ohms. Have a look here for a wide selection.
Eminence has been making Pro line drivers for many years and are most affordable too. The also make private lable drivers for other branded names. Have a look here:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 20:19:16
Wow! Maybe some years down the road, but I will have to do some kind of 18" rig in the future. You're right, nothing under 8 Ohms. What if you ran the 18" in parallel with say, a couple of 2ohm subs, or something like that? Is there any way one would you give an amp a load that would make it to where you wouldn't need a 1000RMS @ 8 Ohm rated amp? That' pretty insane power these guys demand.
As for most of them being for live music use, some of my most fun builds were done with home audio gear. (by the way, I said fun, not effective) Home audio runs a pretty low wattage rating, so you can get some pretty high SPL with like a 250W peak amp. Effecient, but not the best.
So it looks like I'm "stuck" with the MRP M450. "Stuck" as in Ultimate discontinued the M350. I think I'll live, But It has an "Always Fuctioning" SS filter @ 15Hz. Taht sounds like I'ts a bit low, so I going to use a Harrison Labs F-mod 30hz High Pass to combat this. But, my question is, will this interact effectively with the Alpine's subsonic? I will be purchasing this amp either Friday or next week.
Do these Eq's have built in crossovers? About what price do they come in at? Does alpine make a similar unit? I want to use as much Alpine equipment as possible in this install, it's not neccessary, in fact I can't even come up with a good reason why besides " I want to." I think I have seen one in the past, but I'm not sure.
Man, I gotta have an 18............just not anytime soon
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 21:40:02
I was looking at the 20hz post on the board, and it gave me some thoughts....
Will using boxes towards the rearmost part of thr trunk and putting sound ports in the rear dash effectively maximize cabin space for a lower resonance frequencey? This post answers my Q's on why I havent been able to get a 20hz note stand out like it did in my Delta 88 Olds.
Say we take the Alpine and Boston, each their own sealed enclosure, place them facing towards the rear wall at the opposite corners of the vehicle, and put a large slotted soundport right up against the back seat through the rear deck, could this be effective or would it just act as a massive bandpass enclosure with an excessively large vented side?
Say this works, would it be better to maximize the trunk side's volume, putting it up to the back seat, or maximize the cabin's space, putting, the sound port as close to the rear glass as possible. Of course, this all would reqire some crazy trunk sealing, but this has now facinated me. This is what I want to do. I don't care what I have to do to make It work.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 21:46:11
Also, would said sound port be tuneable?
swez on 10/15/2006 22:26:26
In all reality, we cannot truely hear a pur 20 Hz., tone. We here its harmonics but feel the pressure waves if enough SPL is available. The typical human hearing does not accurately pick up pure bass tones below about 32 Hz. On the high ranges, 16 to 18 Khz., is about the average limits for a 30 something male. (women and children tend to have better acquity for highs. Men, generally do not)
When trunk mounting subs, if we open up ports into the main cabin, we have basically created a form of BP enclosure. The area of the holes, (ports of a sort) and the area of the cabin control what frequencies are boosted or cut.
As for where to mount the sub enclosures, some careful positioning will give you the sweet spot. Some are mid-trunk while others are far toward the rear bumper or butted to the rear seat backs. Try several positions and determine the location that works best.
As for EQ and crossovers in one package... I prefer to separate each function as it's difficult to get 2 good units in one pakage that are fully usable. Most good amps have more than adequate HP/LP filtering. If a SSF is needed, F-Mods are a good choice as they are modular and act like "active filters" b/c they are located before the amplifiers in the signal chain.
The 30 Hz HP (SSF) is a good choice for most car and home installs. In Pro sound, we may go to 20 - 25 Hz., and use 4th order filters as needed. (-48dB/oct slopes) This is almost always using 15 or 18" subs.
Speaking of 18" subs... a long, hard search will probably find a few 4 ohm subs in that size. Most Pro woofers will be SVC, 8 ohm drivers and need very large ported boxes. These are great for larger format HT applications. In a car, 15's are pretty much the norm.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/15/2006 23:57:21
Do you think thus trunk situation would work though? The main thing I would be worried about is maintaining accuracy of the subs, since bandpassing is not my goal.
I have learned, in any enclosure , running too big of a box or too big of a port puts the subwoofer in a free air situation.
So what I'm thinking based on that, I have a pretty large trunk. If I cut slot in the rear deck, say 2-4 inches in to it starting flush with the back seat, the entire width of the interior, a port that reaches down into the trunk, make a large enough "ported enclosure" that the sealed subs are in to where bandpassing doesn't occur, but instead increaces "cabin space" in a way that the resonance frequency is lower based on the stament you made on the other post that a bigger cabin results in a lower resonance point?
here we are..... dual 2 ohm JL 18"
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0106cae_jl_18w3_car_audio_subwoofer/
I want one.......sure its not wery accurate, but I just want to say I have an 18"
swez on 10/16/2006 13:25:20
Sure, it will work as mentioned. However, some of our previous readers used sealed box designs and then cut a pass through hole in the rear deck for bass to better enter the main cabin. It seemed to work very well for them, especially when they used sealed box designs.
One guy did a lot of position testing in his Lumina and found the best bass was noted when he set the box in the middle of the trunk, firing to the rear and noted very good bass in the main cabin this way. If I recall it right, he used a pair of Alpine SWR 10's and Alpine's 300 & 600 watt RMS amps. Both gave strong bass, but the M605 was just a tad louder.
Using a sealed box gave him very good woofer cone control and a gentle rolloff slope on bass below 45 Hz. He got good punch for Rock and smooth low for Jazz and such too. The pass through vent allowed much more bass to pass into the cabin for more bass SPL and very good bass clarity as well.
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 16:10:01
Hmmmm...A lumina? Sweet. Same chassis design as my ride. I have soundported a rear deck before, but this was the port straight from the box, no air moved through the trunk. Still, the fabrication shouldn't be too difficult or expensive, I'll just do it at work and put some blue grillecloth over it so the parents aren't like "why did you hack the car to pieces? Is there any way to make for a lower rolloff point? I want my SPL to peak out at the absolute lowest end of the bass frequencies.
I just can't put subs in a sealed trunk. What a waste. Might as well buy a half full botle of liquor while your at the issue of waste.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 16:14:20
BTW, can you shoot me a link for that post? I would like to study it for reference
swez on 10/16/2006 17:39:55
It was like 2 years ago that we did this project together. He, (Ogetnom 27) did the hole in the center of his rear deck. It was pretty large and he has to reinforce the deck liner material as it billowed in and out with the bass notes. (yeah... like that!)
If you used only the port output from your sub enclosure as the pass through, the only bass you will hear from it, will be the tuning frequency of the port and a few Hz., either side of same. For better bass range, DO NOT USE PORT ONLY for interior cabin bass. It will dissapoint you for sure!
Half a bottle of hooch is better than none... but in this case, we both want a full bottle right? So, use the pass through vent with a ported box of your tuning needs, (35 Hz., is a very good place to shoot for tuning) and allow everything to pass from trunk, into your cabin. That may mean adjusting the location of the box, as it sits inside the trunk.
Comments?
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 20:33:22
I wasn't planning to use just the port of an enclosure on this build, I had just done that with my old Toyota. It was a Bandpass enclosure, and the sound port came right through the rear deck. since I'm usually broke, I cut up an old floormat and relined the rear deck so it didn't look so messy.
It sounded pretty sweet, but the port niose seemed bad to me. Most of my buddies couldn,' hear it even when they were listening for it but it bothered me a little. Not too bad, but any imperfection can make me go crazy. My first enclosure build, I say it was a success overall.
The box was ugly, but it was awesome. Loudest 10" I have ever heard (at least installed in a car, not in a demo room though) and was amazingly accurate for a BP enclosure. It had trouble getting the tone correct all the time, but it never missed a note. The driver was an Infinity Reference 1042W.
I miss the accuracy of two sealed subs, but have not ran a similar rig since my first setup in my Delta 88. Total budget: $85. I ran two ESX 10" subs-$20, a 100X4 Alpine amp-$30, (bridged of course,) (sorry profanity) Rampage 35X4 deck-$35 and stock speakers. I heve never seen that brand of subs before or since. This sounded awesome, although it broke a lot of the rules I use now while installing. Actually all except for one.
I looked at the rear deck and came up with my game plan. There is four litle holes in the center of the rear deck, about 2"x 3". each hole has a similar sized of steel forming a cross in between them.
If I cut out said cross, I will have an approx 6x12 pass through. I only need to cut through a few inces of steelNot as appealing as a 4" thick slot the whole width of the vehicle, but It'll work. That will not work, as the speaker holes and trunk hinges would interfere with this
Do you remember what material your freind used to reinforce the rear deck? I figured I would have to do this today, when I looked at how I wanted to do this and saw the hinges, the "precut" holes and FLIMSY materail of the rear deck. It looks like some kind of cardboard, or super weak low density particle board. Like people in Iraq, it needs reinforcements.
My last question, about how long will the pass through's port need to be? Will it even need one? Longer is lower when it comes to tuning right? Again, since I want to run a pair of sealed subs, a tuned ported enclosure is not an option, expecially since I'm considering using a pair of Type E's, and eitheir "scrapping" the Boston for Home Audio use, or saying the dirty version of might as well, running 3 subs, leaving the boston in the passenger rear footwell.
A little off topic, what's your juice? Well I guess that was my last question. Thanks again for all the help, and listening to my ramblings, sometimes I wander into the tar pits like Brownstone.
swez on 10/16/2006 22:52:36
Hummm, since this "vent" is not tuned, it is just a pass through for air pressure and sound waves. The more surface area used, the more it will allow bass to come into the cabin. (Vent area matters) How much is enough to be effective? I really don't know best answer on that. Trial and error is about the best I can tell ya for now.
As for a material that can be used to support the cloth covering, I would think that Pegboard might be a good option. It's masonite, thin and fairly rigid too. To get more air through, consider boring a pattern of 1" holes, (evenly spaced) to get good air flow through it, but enough surface area to use 3M spray adhesive to hold the cloth firmly onto the masonite substrate. The trick is enough large holes to allow bass waves to pass freely w/o extranious noise.
Does that make sense to you?
swez
PS Avoid the tar pits. I have lost many old buddies in them. If you see Brownstone in there... help him out OK? LOL
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 23:13:44
So should I cut the large hole in the center, and also put in the 1" holes in? What if I took off the cheap stuff, cut the vent, and glue the fabric directely onto the metal? I really don't feel like making a whole rear deck, that's a lot of measuring and cutting I neither feel comfortable with nor have the tools for.
As for tar pits, I'll stay away, and if I see Mr B. I got his back
thanks again
swez on 10/16/2006 23:42:52
If you cut a large area hole in the rear deck and just used the normal cloth to cover it, it will billow and flap with bass waves. But if you wanted to make a nice looking grill cover, you can buy sheet steel products at Home Depot, (or similar) that are both decorative and functional too.
Have seen some neat looking patterns for screen doors and such there and if you built a nice frame for it, bet it would look cool, work well and solve some of the issues too. Not overly expensive either as I recall either.
Also, consider using standard size air duct covers. (You know, the metal ones used in homes for cold air returns and such) They come in many shapes and sizes and can be covered with opaque cloth that has a very open weave. Here, some spray adhesive will do nice to hold the fabric in place and you can always use slicone adhesive to hold it in place and prevent rattles.
What say you?
swez
PS Do you have Yahoo IM? Maybe we can hook up there sometime and chat off this board. My YIM ID is: "swezdp" Get a mike and headphones and we can yak it up for free. I am inviting you into my inner circle of web buddies. Care to pick up the call?
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/16/2006 23:51:51
Sure man, I'm honored. I'll download that asap. I planned on cutting away the stock fabric antway and installing a grille cover in it's place. I like the screen door frame idea, I work in a window shop, I should have thought of that sooner. I'm going to do this as soon as I get an extra 6' of sub cable and a metal blade for the shop's skillsaw. I bet It'll look pretty sweet too.
swez on 10/17/2006 00:09:23
There ya go... a perfect job for this one since you already know the concept and have the right tools handy. Just make sure the grill cover is rigid enough not to resonate or you'll have to add some "X" supports to stiffen it up.
Yeah, it would be good to YIM chat and toss ideas about. It's not really an honor or an exclusive club thingy... just a better way to exchange ideas in real time. In fact, the honor is all mine. Have just learned to be more selective about chatting buddies is all. I reserve that time for clients and a few special friends. It's a great way to get to know others too.
See ya on YIM,
swez
Get YIM chat started here:
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 00:40:32
Actually I don't make the screens, I seal the sides of the window, but I'll get the boss to help out. Luckily I've known the boss a lot longer than I've known the job....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 00:41:42
I'l have to take you up on tha chat later though, I gotta work at 6 am.
swez on 10/17/2006 03:23:37
Another time is fine... just look around the shop and see what ideas your boss can come up with for the pass through grating system. I would think a 5.0-6.0 ft^2 vent would be plenty.
See ya on YIM,
swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/17/2006 22:09:14
The boss isn't coming up with any Ideas, but thats fine, I got the Idea, I just need help making the screen. I don't know how to assemble them. In fact, I'm not sure if anybody at the shop does with all the remakes we do. I'm going to cut the hole first, so I can properly measure the cover.
swez on 10/18/2006 05:14:27
I spoke with my old contact on how he did his cover support. It was a plastic lattice type sheet goods he used as a substrate, to cover the large vent hole he cut out in the deck lid of his Lumina. He then glued the fabric to the the plastic lattice after it was installed and that was it.
He is now planning on a pair of Alpine SWR-1222D's in a sealed box, for his Expedition, powered by a Kenwood KAC-9102D amp and using a Parametric EQ/Line Driver, (Audiobahn AEQ7) to keep HU voltages up to feed his amps.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 10/18/2006 20:56:35
Sweet. I probably wont need to use this, since I'm cutting away the fabric anyway, but just in case this is good to know. Probably going to do the cut on Friday or Saturday, and build the vent screen on Monday, provided I still have a job. I don't want it to look srock, as my car is my "demo vehicle" for my on the side installation business.
swez on 10/20/2006 19:41:12
As you wish Sir.... do it well!
swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
