I'm not going to act like I know a whole lot cuase I don't...I am currently researching instaling audio in my blazer and have a few Q's. I want to buy 3 RF punch stage 3 p312 d4 12" subs. They each are dual coil 4ohm and run at 500 RMS. As well as 2-4 tweeters (not sure of brand or watts yet) I had planned to buy 2 amps and was thinking of 2 Kenwood 9102d mono amps each with 500 watts at 4 ohm.....would these amps work if I hooked one up to 2 of the subs and the other up to the other sub and 2 tweeters? If I understand this right?......One amp could power two of the subs well enough (if sub coils are wired in series for 4ohm per sub load and both subs are wired in parrellel to amp to get 2 ohm), but I am not sure of the other combo?? Are there better amp combos in the same price range? Are mono amps vs. multi channel amps a good way to go? What would be the best wiring options. What other problems do you see with this? I am sticking with the Rf subs but am open for any amp suggestions. Thanks for any help
Replies (36)
Pepe on 09/25/2006 19:21:33
Ok, let me change this, basically I have a cheap hook-up for "almost" anything Rockford fosgate speaker wise. I would like to get three 12" punch p312 subs for a total 1500rms and the one Rf P162s 6/1/2" car component system which says 60rms in discription (but not sure if that is for everything or what).
Should I be looking at other RF products? Even if I should be, what are the best mid-price range amp choices (any brand) for the above? Cable choices? Can I get away with mounting 1 mid and 1 tweeter in each front door and the other remaining 2 tweeters in box with subs? Does this make sense or is this not done? Thanks
swez on 09/27/2006 17:21:02
Tri-subs are not only expensive, but they are hard to match with most amps and take up a fair amount of cargo space too.
May I suggest a pair of 12's in a sealed or ported enclosure here. There are many fine woofers out there to select from and don't come with the big name price that is typical of RF products. Consider Alpine, Infinity, JBL, Resonant Engineering, CDT, MTX or Adire.
If you really want RF subs, consider a pair of the Rockford Fosgate P312D2's. These can be configured for a net 2 ohm and perfect for most Class D amps that can deliver 800-1200 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
Here, this pairing can take 500 RMS/sub and if you go ported and tuned low (~35 - 38 Hz.) you'll get great low end bump and porting will add several free dB near the tuning frequency. This is a more efficient design and instead of expensive subs and brute amp power, we use design optimums to get SPL and clarity too. Sealed and Ported designs from RF:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/575/575P310D2.PDF
The Blazer will give some nice cabin gain effect too. Basically, let the cargo area and enclosure design work for and not against you here bud! With a well designed enclosure and dual 12's in a ported box, this ride will slam with adequate amping power. Trust me here Pepe.... if you do this well, you'll get applause from your buddies and turn some heads too. CLAP
Also, what kind of budget are you working with here? That will pretty much dictate power and performance you can expect.
swez
Pepe on 09/28/2006 12:50:41
Thanks for your reply Swez, it definently helped me out. I really was not sure about the tri-subs....I cant seem to find any variety of amp choices anyways, and the ones I did find where just getting way to expensive. the Budget I have for the entire project is between $1000 and $1500 but I would prefear to stay away from $1500. I have got to do some more reasearch now but will definently be back with more q's. Thanks
joe
swez on 09/28/2006 14:44:18
Depending on the price you can come up with on the sub pairing mentioned, that leaves a strong Class D amp (1000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms), wiring kit and a well designed ported enclosure. (They retail for $300.00 each. However, some careful shopping can get that price down too. How about this deal?
http://techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=1541&gclid=CL3sva360IcCFQ-4WAodwBN0JQ ($168.XX/ea. is not all bad huh?)
If you are handy with wood and tools, or have a few buddies that do have these, then one can build a great enclosure for about $80-100.00 in materials. On page 5 of this link, you have 3 choices in ported enclosures:
1. Compact SQL ported, 1.25 cf for the 10" sub format
2. Daily Driver SQL ported, 1.75 cf for the 12" ****
3. SPL ground pounder, 2.5 cf for the 15"
**** From calculations, #2 is tuned to about 38 Hz. This gives a nice bump in SPL between 35 - 45 Hz., where the deep bass lives. Along with the cabin gain affects you get from a mid-size SUV, this is a very good option for 2 x 12's from RF's P312 series woofers. Right on target.
As for amps, consider an amp that has an infrasonic/subsonic filter network. This helps block out low frequencies that would be harmful to ported subs.
1. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3083
2. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2141
3. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3942 (Use D4 version subs)
4. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3782 (D4 subs)
5. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3803
Look around at that site if you wish. Just note the RMS power ratings for each Mono amp for ~1000 watts RMS. If you find one that nets a few watts more, no biggie. The key is getting the right subs to match power ratings and has sub sonic filtering.
A. For amps that have best RMS power @ 2 ohms, use the D2 subs.
B. For amps that have best RMS power @ 1 ohm, use the D4 subs.
Got all that?
Swez
PS Stick with solid brand names and avoid brands like Boss, Audiobahn, Bub Nag, Pioneer, Pyle, Sound Storm and Sony
Pepe on 10/2/2006 10:53:53
Ok I'm back. I appreciate you looking up those sites for me Swez. I have broken my fad with RFs, almost, anyways and am now considering either the Alpine type R SWR 1222 D 12" subs wich are 500 rms @2ohm and are dual voice or the Rf p312 D2s. Both have same ratings, is either more reccomended than the other?
As for Amps I am juggling b/t the Alpine MRD M1005D mono, the Kicker O6 2x1000 (both of these amps push 1000rms@2ohm), or the Alphasonik PMA 1800A mono with 1300rms@2. All are simular price range. I was thinking Alpine, but was wanting a second opinion.
The box is not a price issue, I plan to make it with the help of a friend.
In general do component systems fit in most suv doors? If a component system is rated 70 rms (assuming they are sold in pairs), does this mean 70 total or 70 per 1 speaker (140 for pair)?
Thanks Again, JOE
swez on 10/2/2006 12:22:10
Joe,
The guys I have steered to Alpine in the past 203 years, have ALL come back with very positive results. Clean sound, above average SPL and the amps/sub never failed when used as recommended. (We're talking about 25-30 guys... not 2 or 3)
That's a pretty good track record for any mfg'er to stand on huh? I would also toss in JBL & Infinity products here too. These are definitely above average, if you can get them at a good price.
All 3 amps mentioned are pretty solid performers. I don't know much about Alphasonic to date. Mr. B mentioned them a while back and he made some favorable comments on them, but other than that... I cannot give you specifics on yea or ney.
Components for a Blazer... Cruchfield shows 5.25" or 6.5" fits:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-60okEQpkeQ8/cgi-bin/ProdGroup.asp?g=410
Speaker ratings are generally power per side. (1 woofer, tweeter & xover) The only one I know of that rates power per pair, is Audiobahn. Yeah... there's always one odd duck in the crowd as for sure, Bahn is often the odd man out.
swez
Pepe on 10/3/2006 14:20:02
Ok, cool, I am almost done with all this.
Another question though....Say I want to buy (2) diferent component speaker systems, 1 for the front doors and the other for the back doors. One is 70rms per pair of speakers and the other is 50rms per pair for a total of 240 rms. I was given a 4 channel 40x4rms@4ohm amp....this probably won't work will it? Would it work if I down graded the 70rms speakers to 50 rms speakers?
Say I keep the 70 and 50 rms speakers, what kind of wattage should I look for in purchasing an amp? Would a 75rmsx4@4ohms amp work or would the wattage be to high? Will the difference in speaker wattage b/t the front and back speakers pose a problem?
I know this is alot of questions, but I'm finally begining to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
thanks Joe
Pepe on 10/3/2006 15:43:00
Just wondering......is the Alpine CDA 9856 head unit good on sound quality? Inother words will it do an after market system justice?
MrBrownstone on 10/3/2006 16:06:40
All Alpine head units are good on sound quality. The main differentiating feature between head units is the features they provide (sound processing, eq, etc.) and the RCA output voltage.
In a word, yes.
swez on 10/3/2006 16:15:33
The difference between a 40 watt amp VS an 80 watt amp is a net +3dB gain in SPL. Now, if you used 2 ohm Comps like those fron Infinity or JBL, and they are very efficient with power, (90dB SPL @ 1w/1m) a smaller amp will be fine and very usable.
Most 4 channel amps put out almost double the watts @ 2 ohms loads as they do for 4 ohm speakers. If you took that route, then a modest 4 channel would sound like an amp with 2x that power. (+3dB)
Yes, these Comps are not cheap... but this is one place where we don't want cheap. A good look on the net will help you find a good price on Infinity Kappa CS Comps. They do sound super!
swez
Victor on 10/3/2006 16:33:27
they do, the JBL as well as the infinity 2 ohms comps.. but i never liked their highs.. silk domes are soo much better..
Pepe on 11/2/2006 11:49:44
I am starting to doubt myelf. Did i make a good choice by bying (2) alpine type R SWR 1222d 12" subs and an Alpine MRD-1005 amp to power them?
Victor on 11/2/2006 13:27:28
well, that is a very good combo for a bass machine, rest will depend on the way u have wired them , the enclosure, gain settings, lpf and ssf settings.....basically its depends a lot on the install.. but you cant go wrong with this setup if installed well..
swez on 11/2/2006 16:21:15
Nope, you made a fine choice for your bass engine Pepe. These are well proven subs and Alpine amps are pretty solid too. As Victor mentioned, the system setup and install process is the determining factor now, along with your enclosure matching to these subs.
Say more about your planned install and we can walk you through the steps to get the most from the gear you have now OK?
swez
PS Have you picked out a HU you'd like to use here yet?
Pepe on 11/6/2006 10:55:04
Thanks ya'll, I have not even built the box yet, have not had the time but when i do I will definently be on here looking for some advice. I feel like it is going to be an overwhelming project.
Other than the wires and cables what else do I need material wise? I have got all the tools. Do I need fuses/fuse box? Is There a good website that can tell me about "the Big 3" in detail?
I have not bought the HU yet due to lack of funds, but have decided to get the Pioneer DEH 780. This is proving to be a difficult HU to find. I only know of a few places online that carry them. www.hookedontronics.com is the cheapest I have found so far. I can't find them on ebay anywhere....Do ya'll know any good sites for this HU?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/6/2006 13:34:49
The DEH-P860MP and DEH-P6800MP have very good features too and are easily found at reasonable prices too.
Yes, all this is overwhelming until we break it down into manageable bites. Right now, planning your install and gathering the needed gear are plenty to focus on. Once you have that in hand, the rest will naturally follow.
Big 3 Upgrade:
http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801;p=
OK, you have a solid Bass engine system already. (A pair of Alpine SRW-1222d's and Alpine MRD-1005. Good to go there for bass.
Now, consider a solid 4 channel amp and speakers that will keep up wit your bass engine. Here, a 50 x 4 (RMS) amp is minimum to consider. A larger amp, (75-100 RMS x 4) would be a very good choice.
Once you have a full range amp in mind and a HU to control all these things, we can move you into the wiring and hardware needs as budget permits. Patience my boy.... it will come together in time.
For now, consider what type of sub enclosure system you can manage for this truck. (Sealed or Ported) If you can build it cheaper than buying one, go that route. (There are some pretty good prefab, (Sealed boxes) out there and they are often cheaper to buy than build. If you want a ported system, then consider doing the box yourself. Figure about $80-100.00 for materials, depending on hardware and wood costs in your area. A single sheet of 8.0' x 4.0' x 3/4" will cost about $30.00 and 1 sheet will be all you need for sealed or ported here. The rest is hardware, glue and carpeting is you wish.
For now, your best bet is figuring out what type of sub enclosure you want to use and then make or buy as desired. (Sealed would be easy to do and sound very good with this much amping power) If you want ported, time to get out a note pad, take down some internal dimensions for your truck cargo area and then come up with a box design you can build while waiting on the HU and 4 channel amp.
OK... sealed or ported?
Swez
Pepe on 11/8/2006 10:35:24
Well lets see, I was originally thinking ported, but now am thinking sealed. I do alot of camping, fishing, and biking so I need some space left over in the back. Sense ported boxes are larger I think I am going to go with sealed. When purchasing wood, it is Fiber board that I want and not particle board right?
As for the 4-channel amp and speaks, I already have them both. Although I should have gone a step up on the amp. I got an 06 KICKER ZX350.4 amp, Ininity Kappa comp speaks (front), and Alpine SPS 171A comp speaks (back). the HU, box, and instalation nessesaties are all I need to buy/make. This wireing of this set up is what I find really confusing. But first things first, I will do the sub and amp install before tackleing this.
joe
swez on 11/8/2006 11:52:20
Good choice... sealed subs take up less space and can easily deliver strong, deep bass when we follow the recommended enclosure specs of the mfg.
As for materials, yes... a single sheet of 3/4" thick MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) will do an very good job here. You'll need about 3/4 of a full sheet (8 ft x 4ft) material wise.
Amp wise, this Kicker ZX-350.4 delivers the most power at 2 ohms per channel. If you have 4 ohm speakers, this amp will deliver 50-60 watts RMS x 4 with no struggle. If using 2 ohm speakers, you can get 90 RMS per channel.
As for the Alpine subs, shoot for a sealed enclosure that give each sub an internal airspace of 0.85 cf/sub. If using 1 enclosure for both subs, use a divider panel so that each sub has its own sealed air chamber. (This is best as it protects your subs if one fails)
Here's a general place to start: These are external measurements of the box. Get a tape measure and check these numbers to see how that will fit in your vehicle. We can adjust parameters as needed to best fit.
Width: 28-3/4"
Height: 14.0"
Depth: 11.0"
Once you get the external footprint settled, we can work on details of panel cuts for the box you need OK?
Swez
PS You should be fine with the rest of the gear noted. For now, remain "focused" on your sub enclosure details. The rest will be handled in an orderly fashion as needed. Just take this project one step at a time and all will turn out very well with what you already have and a few additional accessories.
Divider board: Measure and install to fit, after the main box is assembled (Roughly 12.5" x 9.5" x 3/4")
Pepe on 11/12/2006 20:51:56
I have a quik questions about shopping for HUs. I Like the 6800 that you suggested I check out, all except for the volts on the pre-amp outputs. they are only 2.2 vs. the 5 that the 780 or 7800 puts out. How will this dramatic difference in output volts affect my system?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/12/2006 21:01:40
Some really prefer the 4 volt or higher RCA voltage line outs. It really depends on the amp used. I've installed a few low and high voltage HU's or line drivers and it did not have much difficulty getting the amps up to rated power. That's what the amp gain setting is for.
Does it really matter if the amp gain is set at 4.0 volts or 1.5 volts, as long as the amp reaches target output? Nope! Not one wit. As long as we have no noise problems to deal with, most amps on the market today are very able to reach full potential, even with low voltage RCA HU's.
Swez
Pepe on 11/15/2006 11:30:30
Swez,
Hows it goin?
Is the box width of 28 3/4" that you gave 3 posts above for a single sub box or for a dual sub box? Say I want to make the face of the box slightly angled so the subs face up a little. What would be the best way to adjust the measurments?
I want to instal the amp right on top of the sub box, is this ok? I am wondering whether the vibrations of the subs will affect the amp badly in any way?
Thanks, Joe
Pepe on 11/15/2006 12:06:01
Swez,
The Alpine MRD 1005 amp recomends 8 gauge of smaller ground and power cables. I am wondering if the 2 guage Power acoustik amp kit found on www.justamps.com would be sufficient which has a 60A AGU fuse OR if the 4 gauge stinger SWK4 Pro 4 kit with a 150A ANL fuse would work any better. Is 4 guage sufficeint enough or should I go 2 guage? Is 12 gauge speaker cable adequete?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/15/2006 13:39:00
Ji Joe,
1. 28-3/4" is width for a dual sub enclosure
2. You can adjust the mounting angle of the sub baffle panel if you wish to aim the subs upward (I would use a table saw and angle cut to top and bottom lips at no more then 5 degrees) This requires some ber careful measurments too.
3. You can mount the amp on the sub enclosure (Side, top or back)
4. This amp is best wired with #4 power and ground wire (80A fusing here right?)
4a. If you plan on using a full range amp along with this sub amp, better drop to a #2 gage wiring kit, fused at 150A. Use a Distribution block that is suitable for both amps
5. #12 wire is fine for your sub wiring if under 4 feet long (#12 wire is good up to 2400 watts in very short runs)
Manual: Alpine MRD 1005 (See page 8)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500MRDM605.PDF
Swez
Pepe on 11/19/2006 18:53:38
Hey Swez,
My progress is very slow, but I will get there eventually. So I have been searching and found a 2 gauge Tsunami wireing kit for my amp/subs with a 250A ANL fuse/fuse holder, and also found a 10 gauge Stinger cable sold by the foot for my speakers. Once I get my measurments figured out exactally, than this should be sufficient A?. The Tsunami Kit seems expensive, but from what I have read in several places it is rated well.. (as good wire).....Is this correct?
I would like to get all of my wireing purchases completed all at once. If I plan on getting a 2 gauge kit for the sub/amp kit than what would you say is best for the 4-channel-2 pair skeaker kit? I was thinking 4 or 8 gauge, what is best though?
Thanks, JOE
swez on 11/19/2006 20:55:32
Have been using Streetwires and Knukonceptz products mostly and they can be had at very good prices and kitted too. Stinger is a good brand, but often very expensive. (high profits to the seller)
I really would not hesitate to go larger in wires for dual amps. If you have the space to hide them, 1/0 is very low loss up to 20 feet. This allows maximum power to your amps. Tsunami is OK... but shop around for KK or Streetwires and see what your best package will cost.
www.knukonceptz.com
The wires there are top notch and you can even order a 4 wire bundled set of RCA's for your 4 channel amp and a 2 channel pair to match, for your sub amp. This makes for a more compact install too.
Finally, #2 gage is rated well at 150-200A current draw. A 1/0 line will be up to 300A and a lot easier to find hardware too. The key is a good D-block for your B+ wires for each amp. It doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to fit.
Swez
Pepe on 11/25/2006 02:36:14
Hi Swez,
Still have not built the box yet cause work and classes are killing me, but I am making some progress elswhere.
I thought it was bad when I new very little when begining to shop for equitment, but now I know Nothing when it comes to how all the wireing should be.
Q #1-100) So If i buy a 1/0 amp kit do I also need to buy an amp kit for the 4-channel amp? and if so, should the gauge be the same?
I don't understand the purpose of the distribution block. I was told that the 1/0 power cable I buy in the amp kit will go from the battery to the distr block and than the block will have several 4/0 slots to send 2 diff/ 4/0 cables, one each to my 2 amps. Is this at all correct? If so, than where do I hook the ground? Is it hooked directly to the amp and do i need a ground for both amps as well as the upgrade for the battery ground?
#101) Will I have only one power cable running from my battery for the entire system or will there be others and what happens to the car power cable already hooked to the battery, how do I make room for the additional power cable(s)?
The one gauge is rated at 300A for fuses, but on the knukoncept site it gives a choice of different fuse ratings. How do I determine which is best? Does it have anything to do with the size of my alt?
As for speeker wireing, when following the diagram you put together for 2DVC series VC. parallel SUBS, are all those positive and negative lines shown just regulat speaker wire or is any of it diff? What I mean is, for ex. the positive that is leaving the amp, is that just a piece of wire that is than split into its 2 seperate sections and ran to each speaker? I am confused cause if so, isn't speaker wire usually labled as one positive peice and the other is neg?
Sorry if this is confusing and I did alot of rambling, but I don't have a clue and do'nt know a much better way to word it all. I wish there was a book on wireing for dumbies......
JOE
swez on 11/25/2006 13:04:41
OK, let's break things down into bite size chunks and go from there"
"Q #1-100) So If i buy a 1/0 amp kit do I also need to buy an amp kit for the 4-channel amp? and if so, should the gauge be the same?"
A. No, just the power line, inline fuse and a D-block are needed for 1/0 wiring to power all amps used.
The D-block you want, will have a 1/0 hole for the input side that connects to your main 1/0 power line. There are other holes in the D-block that are used to connect smaller wires to various amps as needed. (#4,8 or 10 gage power lines to your amps)
Alpine 1005 needs a #4 wire
Kicker ZX350.4 can use #8 or #4 wire
This product will do fine:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=BC-1024
*************************************************************************
"#101) Will I have only one power cable running from my battery for the entire system or will there be others and what happens to the car power cable already hooked to the battery, how do I make room for the additional power cable(s)? "
A. One main cable fron the BAT, to inline fuse, then back to D-block. At the D-block, it splits 1/0 wire into a pair of #4/8 gage ports that are then wired to your amps
A2. As for grounding, you have 3 main options:
1. Buy a grounding D-block and use that as grounding termination for both amps
2. Use short lengths of #4 line off grounds on each amp and connect them both to a seatbelt mounting bolt. (remove paint and rust with sandpaper so you have a bare metal connection here)
3. Locate a solid metal bracket near the amps and drill a 1/4" hole and use a 1/4" x 20 nut, bolt and flat washer as a grouding stud for your amps. This too, should be sanded to bare metal and install crimp on "eye" connectors to your wires for easy termination at the grounding stud.
**************************************************************************
"The one gauge is rated at 300A for fuses, but on the knukoncept site it gives a choice of different fuse ratings. How do I determine which is best? Does it have anything to do with the size of my alt?"
A 150A main fuse is plenty for the amps mentioned here. Even though the 1/0 wire can handle more current, your amps will never draw over 150A's under normal conditions.
**************************************************************************
Regarding your sub wiring, if using the SWR-1222D's, each sub is wired so both coils are in series. (4 ohms per sub) each sub will look like this when wired properly:
http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1dvcseries7va.jpg
Repeat the same process with woofer #2.
FYI: #12 wiring for your subs is plenty good enough. The Alpine amp only has 1 pair of speaker output connects. However, a pair of #12 gage wires should fit into the amp outputs.
There are several ways to wire your subs to this amp. I gave you the simplest way here. Why? When some guys see more than 2 wires at a time, confusion abounds.
Hope that answers most of your initial questions for now. There are many wiring guides on the Internet and most main sub/amp makers have some kind of wiring wizard available. Have a look at Option #2 on Rockford's site and see if this makes things a bit easier:
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/wiringwizard.asp?WoofQty=2+woofers&WoofImp=Dual+Voice+Coil+-+2+ohms+x+2
Swez
PS Is this project more complicated than you once thought it was? Funny how the more we learn on a given subject, the less we really knew at the beginning. Basically, we are happiest when blind and not aware of all the details ahead of time huh? One bite at a time Joe... you'll get there.
Pepe on 11/25/2006 21:13:08
Wow, thanks for all of the info Swez, it has deffinently cleared alot of stuff up!
Yes, this project is more complicated than I initially believed. I am just now starting to realize how this stuff all works and fits together, and I now have alot more respect for the guys that do this sort of thing often or professionaly. It is alot of work, but fun and rewarding also. I was definently a little more content before I started reading further on this subject, now it feels like I am at the stage when the complication is setting in. When it comes to technology I am impaired.
I enjoy learning about this though, it is something i should have started back in high school when it first sparked my interest.
thanks for your continued help Swez, Out of all of the forums I found when first begining, this is the only one that I keep comeing back to.
swez on 11/26/2006 07:07:25
Arn't you glad you did not opt for tri-subs and those middle of the road Rockford subs now? Hehe...
Actually, CK is pretty unique as it has a good reputation for accurate advice, timely help and qualified Installers and a few good generalists at your immediate click of the mouse.
Installing is a skill set all its own. However, knowing how to install is one thing. Teaching others to do this via remote control is another issue altogether. Having done a degree of both, I have to confess, installing is definitely not everyones' cup of tea and best left to others that have indeed, mastered that process. (you should see some of the messed up work I have encountered to date and had to go in and do it all over for them)
However, teaching others to do this well, is a whole different can of worms. Words are so inadequate at times and pictures and diagrams often help even more. Then, there's the task of bridging the terminology gap between the reader and the coach.
This field has so many terms and technical jargon, one has to unpack all that and break things down into the simplest of terms for the new guys, so they get the flow of things. That is very hard to do and takes a lot of patience and imagination to convey a complex step, in very simple terms. (That's my personal goal here) Put things on the lower shelves so that others can reach and apply them as needed.
Hopefully, we are doing that part well enough for our "silent" readership??? Basically, there is no such thing as a "stupid question" per-se. But if one reads the FAQ's and DIY artilcles, a good overview will come into focus. If you have not had the opportunity to do so, I encourage you to look them over and get a good fundamental understanding of how this all fits together. With a bit more background information at hand, it's much easier to go through each aspect of an install and do it very will too.
Thanks for visiting CK! If you are getting what you need here, show your appreciation and contribute to the site as you can. This helps CK to help others who come later, just as others have donated to make it possible for us to support you now. It's money well spent!
Sincerely,
Swez
Pepe on 11/29/2006 20:01:47
Swez,
I contacted Bill at knukoncept and told him what my set up was including the Hu and than asked him what he thought I would need for the entire install. This is what he said................
The total current draw of the amps totals 120A, our Kolossus 4 gauge 4 Channel kit with a KNF-12 and some added power wire to go from block to amp will be what you need. You will also need one extra RCA cable (Or purchase the two channel kit and add a 4 channel RCA )
You'll also need extra speaker wire, usually you need 13-15ft per front door speaker and about 5-10ft for rear depending on amp and speaker placement.
So, does this sound right? I am not convinced it is...but I know you and him know a hell of alot more than i do so I figured I'd ask before going any further?
Pepe on 11/29/2006 20:21:26
Swez, If i bought what Bill suggested and used the 20ft of 4/0 power wire to go from the block to my two amps and than bought 1/0 wire for the battery to the block......would this be good?
I will however get the d-block you suggested, because I like it better and it is cheaper. Is 120A good enough? I would prefer to get the 150A fuse.
swez on 11/30/2006 06:14:45
Here's the general idea and products you might want to consider as you plan out your wiring phase of the install:
1. Power Wire: eKo Series 1/0 power line, 18 -20' (BAT to D-block)
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-0BL
2. Inline fuse: Mounted near BAT: 1/0 gage in/out and ANL fuse (120 or 150A is fine) Buy a spare too.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-20
3. D-block: The KNF-12 is a good option here. You'll need mini-ANL fuses to match the amp(s) fuse ratings as well. (A spare set of fuses is recommended too)
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KNF-12
4. #4 gage power lines for each amp that connect between each amp and the D-block. The eKo series is fine here and just figure out the length you need for each.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-4BL
5. #4 gage grounds for each amp. Keep them short as possible.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-4PRL
6. I agree with Bill's suggestion on speaker lines from amps to each speaker location. Here, #16 gage wire is plenty good.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR16BLS
7. RCA's: One 4 channel line set an one 2 channel line set are good here. They come in 6 meter lengths, (19.5 ft) so you'll have plenty of wire to work with here.
4 channel: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR4-6M
2 channel: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR2-6M
7a. Three pair of these would also work and cheaper too.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
8. As for your sub amp to sub wiring needs, #12 gage is plenty here. Just determine the proper length needed for inside and outside your sub enclosure.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLE12BL
Got all that down?
FYI: I note that copper prices are escalating and there will be some price changes pending as a result. Should not be a big issue on #4 gage and speaker lines. However, the cost of 1/0 cabling will be a big jump as the amount of copper used in this line is substantial.
Swez
PS You will probably want to consider crimp connectors and a GM side terminal battery post extension bolt as well.
1 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=GMBT
1 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=RT1/0516R
2 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=RT4516BK
Pepe on 01/10/2007 23:02:51
Hey Swez,
It been a while, hope your hoidays went well!
I took a long break from the system, but am tired of all this stuff collecting dust. I have been working constanly but found a little time to start building the box yesterday. To say the least it didn't go as planned. I could not store the board flat due to lack of space and it developed a bow. I just say screw the building, I know it can be done easily enough but, I am tired of saying I will build it and not doing so.
So, I cruised the net and found this box......... http://caraudiofactory.com/dual-sealed-p-98.html .......... Do you think this box would be sufficient? I just need something simple that gets the job done.
swez on 01/11/2007 07:40:32
That box is just a tad on the large side for a pair of Alpine SWR series subs. (0.85 cf/chamber VS 1.0 is considered ideal)
It will work, but if you find it a bit boomy and lacking punch, a few small segments of internal bracing boards per chamber will reduce the internal dimensions adequately to tighten things up. The only way to know for sure, is to buy the box, install the subs and let them break in for a week or so. If you find them too boomy after break in period, simply add 3-4 boards per chamber.
2" T x 6" W x 6" L
Also, consider using some type of sound dampening material inside each chamber as well. (1.5" - 2.0" thickness of polyfill or foam padding will do the job here. (Top, bottom, sides and back panel)
Swez ;-)
Pepe on 01/11/2007 13:45:59
Ok Swez,
Thanks for the quik reply. I will keep searching for a box closer to the ideal air space. I am sure I can find one, but if I don't I will definently make the modifications. If I do find one closer to the .85 ft^3 air space, should I also add a sound dampening material to that box?
I have a plastic-based-sort-of-foam I got as pakaging material with a new fridge. It is in large sheets and 1 1/2" thick but can easily be cut to reduce thickness. Would this work as a dampening material? It is a pourous material, but dense enough to be used for archery targets. I Don't know if that bit of info helps any....
Also, I made a mistake in ordering.........I order material for side terminal connections to my baterery, but need top terminal connections. This is due to the fact that my current battery cables are to short to reach the top terminals and have to be sequered to the side terminals.
I have always wondered........Is replacing these factory cables from the battery a task that could be done with out paying a mechanic? I ask becuase their short length is greatly annoying to a point that even fastening them to the side terminals is a chore.
One more thing........ For the "big 3" wiring should I use the same guage as my amp power cable or the 4 guage that is being used for my car currently?
Thankyou agian
Sincerly, Joe
swez on 01/11/2007 18:25:31
Good... we are tracking right along.
1. That box will work OK as is for Rap and other deep bass music. However, if you feel over time it seems a bit boomy or lacks punch, then add the boards noted.
2. That type of foam mentioned is too dense and will not be as effective as a soft sponge foam or polyfill. It may rattle if not glued down very well to. Save that for another project OK.
3. You can buy conversion adapters that turn side mount termination to top mount styles at most any good autoparts stores. The ones I have used before have the hole matched to top mounted batteries and then a 2-3" extension sleeve with tapped holes for side mounting bolts. You'll need one for the Pos and Neg battery terminals as they are different sizes.
3a. Another option is to lop off the side mount harware completely and use a top mount like the WT-BTT. This model has heavy duty parts and 3 wire location points.
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CNOTiLa62YkCFQOYWAod3kiA9Q
4. Replacing factory cables can be easy or very time consuming, depending on how easy it is to get at them. The one from the ALT to Pos battery terminal is usually easy if you can get to the alternator w/o removing too many other items. Here a #2-4 gage line is sufficient and no Big 3 needed here.
The tricky wire to work on is often the heavy gage line that runs down to the starter. Sometimes there is a clamp on that wire and it can be released to provide a few extra inches of wiggle room. If not, one can always cut that wire and splice on additional cable as needed. Here, a 2" section of Copper tubing with about 3/8" I.D. should do nice. Just make sure you get a good mechanical/electrical connection. You can either crimp only or solder. Just be sure to tape it well when finished so it does not short to ground.
Note: If your ground and power lines are already #4 gage wiring, there is no real need for the Big 3 upgrade. These wires are often under 4 feet long and can easily handle high current load surges above 120 amperes. Try what you have now and measure the voltage at each amp. If you find the battery reads say 13.8 volts and the amp power lugs are within 0.2 volts of your battery readings, good to go. But, if you note greater than a 0.5 volt drop at the amp terminals, than doing the Big 3 Upgrade makes sense.
Comments?
Swez
Replies (36)
Pepe on 09/25/2006 19:21:33
Ok, let me change this, basically I have a cheap hook-up for "almost" anything Rockford fosgate speaker wise. I would like to get three 12" punch p312 subs for a total 1500rms and the one Rf P162s 6/1/2" car component system which says 60rms in discription (but not sure if that is for everything or what).
Should I be looking at other RF products? Even if I should be, what are the best mid-price range amp choices (any brand) for the above? Cable choices? Can I get away with mounting 1 mid and 1 tweeter in each front door and the other remaining 2 tweeters in box with subs? Does this make sense or is this not done? Thanks
swez on 09/27/2006 17:21:02
Tri-subs are not only expensive, but they are hard to match with most amps and take up a fair amount of cargo space too.
May I suggest a pair of 12's in a sealed or ported enclosure here. There are many fine woofers out there to select from and don't come with the big name price that is typical of RF products. Consider Alpine, Infinity, JBL, Resonant Engineering, CDT, MTX or Adire.
If you really want RF subs, consider a pair of the Rockford Fosgate P312D2's. These can be configured for a net 2 ohm and perfect for most Class D amps that can deliver 800-1200 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
Here, this pairing can take 500 RMS/sub and if you go ported and tuned low (~35 - 38 Hz.) you'll get great low end bump and porting will add several free dB near the tuning frequency. This is a more efficient design and instead of expensive subs and brute amp power, we use design optimums to get SPL and clarity too. Sealed and Ported designs from RF:
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/575/575P310D2.PDF
The Blazer will give some nice cabin gain effect too. Basically, let the cargo area and enclosure design work for and not against you here bud! With a well designed enclosure and dual 12's in a ported box, this ride will slam with adequate amping power. Trust me here Pepe.... if you do this well, you'll get applause from your buddies and turn some heads too. CLAP
Also, what kind of budget are you working with here? That will pretty much dictate power and performance you can expect.
swez
Pepe on 09/28/2006 12:50:41
Thanks for your reply Swez, it definently helped me out. I really was not sure about the tri-subs....I cant seem to find any variety of amp choices anyways, and the ones I did find where just getting way to expensive. the Budget I have for the entire project is between $1000 and $1500 but I would prefear to stay away from $1500. I have got to do some more reasearch now but will definently be back with more q's. Thanks
joe
swez on 09/28/2006 14:44:18
Depending on the price you can come up with on the sub pairing mentioned, that leaves a strong Class D amp (1000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms), wiring kit and a well designed ported enclosure. (They retail for $300.00 each. However, some careful shopping can get that price down too. How about this deal?
http://techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=1541&gclid=CL3sva360IcCFQ-4WAodwBN0JQ ($168.XX/ea. is not all bad huh?)
If you are handy with wood and tools, or have a few buddies that do have these, then one can build a great enclosure for about $80-100.00 in materials. On page 5 of this link, you have 3 choices in ported enclosures:
1. Compact SQL ported, 1.25 cf for the 10" sub format
2. Daily Driver SQL ported, 1.75 cf for the 12" ****
3. SPL ground pounder, 2.5 cf for the 15"
**** From calculations, #2 is tuned to about 38 Hz. This gives a nice bump in SPL between 35 - 45 Hz., where the deep bass lives. Along with the cabin gain affects you get from a mid-size SUV, this is a very good option for 2 x 12's from RF's P312 series woofers. Right on target.
As for amps, consider an amp that has an infrasonic/subsonic filter network. This helps block out low frequencies that would be harmful to ported subs.
1. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3083
2. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2141
3. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3942 (Use D4 version subs)
4. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3782 (D4 subs)
5. http://www.techronics.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3803
Look around at that site if you wish. Just note the RMS power ratings for each Mono amp for ~1000 watts RMS. If you find one that nets a few watts more, no biggie. The key is getting the right subs to match power ratings and has sub sonic filtering.
A. For amps that have best RMS power @ 2 ohms, use the D2 subs.
B. For amps that have best RMS power @ 1 ohm, use the D4 subs.
Got all that?
Swez
PS Stick with solid brand names and avoid brands like Boss, Audiobahn, Bub Nag, Pioneer, Pyle, Sound Storm and Sony
Pepe on 10/2/2006 10:53:53
Ok I'm back. I appreciate you looking up those sites for me Swez. I have broken my fad with RFs, almost, anyways and am now considering either the Alpine type R SWR 1222 D 12" subs wich are 500 rms @2ohm and are dual voice or the Rf p312 D2s. Both have same ratings, is either more reccomended than the other?
As for Amps I am juggling b/t the Alpine MRD M1005D mono, the Kicker O6 2x1000 (both of these amps push 1000rms@2ohm), or the Alphasonik PMA 1800A mono with 1300rms@2. All are simular price range. I was thinking Alpine, but was wanting a second opinion.
The box is not a price issue, I plan to make it with the help of a friend.
In general do component systems fit in most suv doors? If a component system is rated 70 rms (assuming they are sold in pairs), does this mean 70 total or 70 per 1 speaker (140 for pair)?
Thanks Again, JOE
swez on 10/2/2006 12:22:10
Joe,
The guys I have steered to Alpine in the past 203 years, have ALL come back with very positive results. Clean sound, above average SPL and the amps/sub never failed when used as recommended. (We're talking about 25-30 guys... not 2 or 3)
That's a pretty good track record for any mfg'er to stand on huh? I would also toss in JBL & Infinity products here too. These are definitely above average, if you can get them at a good price.
All 3 amps mentioned are pretty solid performers. I don't know much about Alphasonic to date. Mr. B mentioned them a while back and he made some favorable comments on them, but other than that... I cannot give you specifics on yea or ney.
Components for a Blazer... Cruchfield shows 5.25" or 6.5" fits:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-60okEQpkeQ8/cgi-bin/ProdGroup.asp?g=410
Speaker ratings are generally power per side. (1 woofer, tweeter & xover) The only one I know of that rates power per pair, is Audiobahn. Yeah... there's always one odd duck in the crowd as for sure, Bahn is often the odd man out.
swez
Pepe on 10/3/2006 14:20:02
Ok, cool, I am almost done with all this.
Another question though....Say I want to buy (2) diferent component speaker systems, 1 for the front doors and the other for the back doors. One is 70rms per pair of speakers and the other is 50rms per pair for a total of 240 rms. I was given a 4 channel 40x4rms@4ohm amp....this probably won't work will it? Would it work if I down graded the 70rms speakers to 50 rms speakers?
Say I keep the 70 and 50 rms speakers, what kind of wattage should I look for in purchasing an amp? Would a 75rmsx4@4ohms amp work or would the wattage be to high? Will the difference in speaker wattage b/t the front and back speakers pose a problem?
I know this is alot of questions, but I'm finally begining to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
thanks Joe
Pepe on 10/3/2006 15:43:00
Just wondering......is the Alpine CDA 9856 head unit good on sound quality? Inother words will it do an after market system justice?
MrBrownstone on 10/3/2006 16:06:40
All Alpine head units are good on sound quality. The main differentiating feature between head units is the features they provide (sound processing, eq, etc.) and the RCA output voltage.
In a word, yes.
swez on 10/3/2006 16:15:33
The difference between a 40 watt amp VS an 80 watt amp is a net +3dB gain in SPL. Now, if you used 2 ohm Comps like those fron Infinity or JBL, and they are very efficient with power, (90dB SPL @ 1w/1m) a smaller amp will be fine and very usable.
Most 4 channel amps put out almost double the watts @ 2 ohms loads as they do for 4 ohm speakers. If you took that route, then a modest 4 channel would sound like an amp with 2x that power. (+3dB)
Yes, these Comps are not cheap... but this is one place where we don't want cheap. A good look on the net will help you find a good price on Infinity Kappa CS Comps. They do sound super!
swez
Victor on 10/3/2006 16:33:27
they do, the JBL as well as the infinity 2 ohms comps.. but i never liked their highs.. silk domes are soo much better..
Pepe on 11/2/2006 11:49:44
I am starting to doubt myelf. Did i make a good choice by bying (2) alpine type R SWR 1222d 12" subs and an Alpine MRD-1005 amp to power them?
Victor on 11/2/2006 13:27:28
well, that is a very good combo for a bass machine, rest will depend on the way u have wired them , the enclosure, gain settings, lpf and ssf settings.....basically its depends a lot on the install.. but you cant go wrong with this setup if installed well..
swez on 11/2/2006 16:21:15
Nope, you made a fine choice for your bass engine Pepe. These are well proven subs and Alpine amps are pretty solid too. As Victor mentioned, the system setup and install process is the determining factor now, along with your enclosure matching to these subs.
Say more about your planned install and we can walk you through the steps to get the most from the gear you have now OK?
swez
PS Have you picked out a HU you'd like to use here yet?
Pepe on 11/6/2006 10:55:04
Thanks ya'll, I have not even built the box yet, have not had the time but when i do I will definently be on here looking for some advice. I feel like it is going to be an overwhelming project.
Other than the wires and cables what else do I need material wise? I have got all the tools. Do I need fuses/fuse box? Is There a good website that can tell me about "the Big 3" in detail?
I have not bought the HU yet due to lack of funds, but have decided to get the Pioneer DEH 780. This is proving to be a difficult HU to find. I only know of a few places online that carry them. www.hookedontronics.com is the cheapest I have found so far. I can't find them on ebay anywhere....Do ya'll know any good sites for this HU?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/6/2006 13:34:49
The DEH-P860MP and DEH-P6800MP have very good features too and are easily found at reasonable prices too.
Yes, all this is overwhelming until we break it down into manageable bites. Right now, planning your install and gathering the needed gear are plenty to focus on. Once you have that in hand, the rest will naturally follow.
Big 3 Upgrade:
http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801;p=
OK, you have a solid Bass engine system already. (A pair of Alpine SRW-1222d's and Alpine MRD-1005. Good to go there for bass.
Now, consider a solid 4 channel amp and speakers that will keep up wit your bass engine. Here, a 50 x 4 (RMS) amp is minimum to consider. A larger amp, (75-100 RMS x 4) would be a very good choice.
Once you have a full range amp in mind and a HU to control all these things, we can move you into the wiring and hardware needs as budget permits. Patience my boy.... it will come together in time.
For now, consider what type of sub enclosure system you can manage for this truck. (Sealed or Ported) If you can build it cheaper than buying one, go that route. (There are some pretty good prefab, (Sealed boxes) out there and they are often cheaper to buy than build. If you want a ported system, then consider doing the box yourself. Figure about $80-100.00 for materials, depending on hardware and wood costs in your area. A single sheet of 8.0' x 4.0' x 3/4" will cost about $30.00 and 1 sheet will be all you need for sealed or ported here. The rest is hardware, glue and carpeting is you wish.
For now, your best bet is figuring out what type of sub enclosure you want to use and then make or buy as desired. (Sealed would be easy to do and sound very good with this much amping power) If you want ported, time to get out a note pad, take down some internal dimensions for your truck cargo area and then come up with a box design you can build while waiting on the HU and 4 channel amp.
OK... sealed or ported?
Swez
Pepe on 11/8/2006 10:35:24
Well lets see, I was originally thinking ported, but now am thinking sealed. I do alot of camping, fishing, and biking so I need some space left over in the back. Sense ported boxes are larger I think I am going to go with sealed. When purchasing wood, it is Fiber board that I want and not particle board right?
As for the 4-channel amp and speaks, I already have them both. Although I should have gone a step up on the amp. I got an 06 KICKER ZX350.4 amp, Ininity Kappa comp speaks (front), and Alpine SPS 171A comp speaks (back). the HU, box, and instalation nessesaties are all I need to buy/make. This wireing of this set up is what I find really confusing. But first things first, I will do the sub and amp install before tackleing this.
joe
swez on 11/8/2006 11:52:20
Good choice... sealed subs take up less space and can easily deliver strong, deep bass when we follow the recommended enclosure specs of the mfg.
As for materials, yes... a single sheet of 3/4" thick MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) will do an very good job here. You'll need about 3/4 of a full sheet (8 ft x 4ft) material wise.
Amp wise, this Kicker ZX-350.4 delivers the most power at 2 ohms per channel. If you have 4 ohm speakers, this amp will deliver 50-60 watts RMS x 4 with no struggle. If using 2 ohm speakers, you can get 90 RMS per channel.
As for the Alpine subs, shoot for a sealed enclosure that give each sub an internal airspace of 0.85 cf/sub. If using 1 enclosure for both subs, use a divider panel so that each sub has its own sealed air chamber. (This is best as it protects your subs if one fails)
Here's a general place to start: These are external measurements of the box. Get a tape measure and check these numbers to see how that will fit in your vehicle. We can adjust parameters as needed to best fit.
Width: 28-3/4"
Height: 14.0"
Depth: 11.0"
Once you get the external footprint settled, we can work on details of panel cuts for the box you need OK?
Swez
PS You should be fine with the rest of the gear noted. For now, remain "focused" on your sub enclosure details. The rest will be handled in an orderly fashion as needed. Just take this project one step at a time and all will turn out very well with what you already have and a few additional accessories.
Divider board: Measure and install to fit, after the main box is assembled (Roughly 12.5" x 9.5" x 3/4")
Pepe on 11/12/2006 20:51:56
I have a quik questions about shopping for HUs. I Like the 6800 that you suggested I check out, all except for the volts on the pre-amp outputs. they are only 2.2 vs. the 5 that the 780 or 7800 puts out. How will this dramatic difference in output volts affect my system?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/12/2006 21:01:40
Some really prefer the 4 volt or higher RCA voltage line outs. It really depends on the amp used. I've installed a few low and high voltage HU's or line drivers and it did not have much difficulty getting the amps up to rated power. That's what the amp gain setting is for.
Does it really matter if the amp gain is set at 4.0 volts or 1.5 volts, as long as the amp reaches target output? Nope! Not one wit. As long as we have no noise problems to deal with, most amps on the market today are very able to reach full potential, even with low voltage RCA HU's.
Swez
Pepe on 11/15/2006 11:30:30
Swez,
Hows it goin?
Is the box width of 28 3/4" that you gave 3 posts above for a single sub box or for a dual sub box? Say I want to make the face of the box slightly angled so the subs face up a little. What would be the best way to adjust the measurments?
I want to instal the amp right on top of the sub box, is this ok? I am wondering whether the vibrations of the subs will affect the amp badly in any way?
Thanks, Joe
Pepe on 11/15/2006 12:06:01
Swez,
The Alpine MRD 1005 amp recomends 8 gauge of smaller ground and power cables. I am wondering if the 2 guage Power acoustik amp kit found on www.justamps.com would be sufficient which has a 60A AGU fuse OR if the 4 gauge stinger SWK4 Pro 4 kit with a 150A ANL fuse would work any better. Is 4 guage sufficeint enough or should I go 2 guage? Is 12 gauge speaker cable adequete?
Thanks, Joe
swez on 11/15/2006 13:39:00
Ji Joe,
1. 28-3/4" is width for a dual sub enclosure
2. You can adjust the mounting angle of the sub baffle panel if you wish to aim the subs upward (I would use a table saw and angle cut to top and bottom lips at no more then 5 degrees) This requires some ber careful measurments too.
3. You can mount the amp on the sub enclosure (Side, top or back)
4. This amp is best wired with #4 power and ground wire (80A fusing here right?)
4a. If you plan on using a full range amp along with this sub amp, better drop to a #2 gage wiring kit, fused at 150A. Use a Distribution block that is suitable for both amps
5. #12 wire is fine for your sub wiring if under 4 feet long (#12 wire is good up to 2400 watts in very short runs)
Manual: Alpine MRD 1005 (See page 8)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500MRDM605.PDF
Swez
Pepe on 11/19/2006 18:53:38
Hey Swez,
My progress is very slow, but I will get there eventually. So I have been searching and found a 2 gauge Tsunami wireing kit for my amp/subs with a 250A ANL fuse/fuse holder, and also found a 10 gauge Stinger cable sold by the foot for my speakers. Once I get my measurments figured out exactally, than this should be sufficient A?. The Tsunami Kit seems expensive, but from what I have read in several places it is rated well.. (as good wire).....Is this correct?
I would like to get all of my wireing purchases completed all at once. If I plan on getting a 2 gauge kit for the sub/amp kit than what would you say is best for the 4-channel-2 pair skeaker kit? I was thinking 4 or 8 gauge, what is best though?
Thanks, JOE
swez on 11/19/2006 20:55:32
Have been using Streetwires and Knukonceptz products mostly and they can be had at very good prices and kitted too. Stinger is a good brand, but often very expensive. (high profits to the seller)
I really would not hesitate to go larger in wires for dual amps. If you have the space to hide them, 1/0 is very low loss up to 20 feet. This allows maximum power to your amps. Tsunami is OK... but shop around for KK or Streetwires and see what your best package will cost.
www.knukonceptz.com
The wires there are top notch and you can even order a 4 wire bundled set of RCA's for your 4 channel amp and a 2 channel pair to match, for your sub amp. This makes for a more compact install too.
Finally, #2 gage is rated well at 150-200A current draw. A 1/0 line will be up to 300A and a lot easier to find hardware too. The key is a good D-block for your B+ wires for each amp. It doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to fit.
Swez
Pepe on 11/25/2006 02:36:14
Hi Swez,
Still have not built the box yet cause work and classes are killing me, but I am making some progress elswhere.
I thought it was bad when I new very little when begining to shop for equitment, but now I know Nothing when it comes to how all the wireing should be.
Q #1-100) So If i buy a 1/0 amp kit do I also need to buy an amp kit for the 4-channel amp? and if so, should the gauge be the same?
I don't understand the purpose of the distribution block. I was told that the 1/0 power cable I buy in the amp kit will go from the battery to the distr block and than the block will have several 4/0 slots to send 2 diff/ 4/0 cables, one each to my 2 amps. Is this at all correct? If so, than where do I hook the ground? Is it hooked directly to the amp and do i need a ground for both amps as well as the upgrade for the battery ground?
#101) Will I have only one power cable running from my battery for the entire system or will there be others and what happens to the car power cable already hooked to the battery, how do I make room for the additional power cable(s)?
The one gauge is rated at 300A for fuses, but on the knukoncept site it gives a choice of different fuse ratings. How do I determine which is best? Does it have anything to do with the size of my alt?
As for speeker wireing, when following the diagram you put together for 2DVC series VC. parallel SUBS, are all those positive and negative lines shown just regulat speaker wire or is any of it diff? What I mean is, for ex. the positive that is leaving the amp, is that just a piece of wire that is than split into its 2 seperate sections and ran to each speaker? I am confused cause if so, isn't speaker wire usually labled as one positive peice and the other is neg?
Sorry if this is confusing and I did alot of rambling, but I don't have a clue and do'nt know a much better way to word it all. I wish there was a book on wireing for dumbies......
JOE
swez on 11/25/2006 13:04:41
OK, let's break things down into bite size chunks and go from there"
"Q #1-100) So If i buy a 1/0 amp kit do I also need to buy an amp kit for the 4-channel amp? and if so, should the gauge be the same?"
A. No, just the power line, inline fuse and a D-block are needed for 1/0 wiring to power all amps used.
The D-block you want, will have a 1/0 hole for the input side that connects to your main 1/0 power line. There are other holes in the D-block that are used to connect smaller wires to various amps as needed. (#4,8 or 10 gage power lines to your amps)
Alpine 1005 needs a #4 wire
Kicker ZX350.4 can use #8 or #4 wire
This product will do fine:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=BC-1024
*************************************************************************
"#101) Will I have only one power cable running from my battery for the entire system or will there be others and what happens to the car power cable already hooked to the battery, how do I make room for the additional power cable(s)? "
A. One main cable fron the BAT, to inline fuse, then back to D-block. At the D-block, it splits 1/0 wire into a pair of #4/8 gage ports that are then wired to your amps
A2. As for grounding, you have 3 main options:
1. Buy a grounding D-block and use that as grounding termination for both amps
2. Use short lengths of #4 line off grounds on each amp and connect them both to a seatbelt mounting bolt. (remove paint and rust with sandpaper so you have a bare metal connection here)
3. Locate a solid metal bracket near the amps and drill a 1/4" hole and use a 1/4" x 20 nut, bolt and flat washer as a grouding stud for your amps. This too, should be sanded to bare metal and install crimp on "eye" connectors to your wires for easy termination at the grounding stud.
**************************************************************************
"The one gauge is rated at 300A for fuses, but on the knukoncept site it gives a choice of different fuse ratings. How do I determine which is best? Does it have anything to do with the size of my alt?"
A 150A main fuse is plenty for the amps mentioned here. Even though the 1/0 wire can handle more current, your amps will never draw over 150A's under normal conditions.
**************************************************************************
Regarding your sub wiring, if using the SWR-1222D's, each sub is wired so both coils are in series. (4 ohms per sub) each sub will look like this when wired properly:
http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1dvcseries7va.jpg
Repeat the same process with woofer #2.
FYI: #12 wiring for your subs is plenty good enough. The Alpine amp only has 1 pair of speaker output connects. However, a pair of #12 gage wires should fit into the amp outputs.
There are several ways to wire your subs to this amp. I gave you the simplest way here. Why? When some guys see more than 2 wires at a time, confusion abounds.
Hope that answers most of your initial questions for now. There are many wiring guides on the Internet and most main sub/amp makers have some kind of wiring wizard available. Have a look at Option #2 on Rockford's site and see if this makes things a bit easier:
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/wiringwizard.asp?WoofQty=2+woofers&WoofImp=Dual+Voice+Coil+-+2+ohms+x+2
Swez
PS Is this project more complicated than you once thought it was? Funny how the more we learn on a given subject, the less we really knew at the beginning. Basically, we are happiest when blind and not aware of all the details ahead of time huh? One bite at a time Joe... you'll get there.
Pepe on 11/25/2006 21:13:08
Wow, thanks for all of the info Swez, it has deffinently cleared alot of stuff up!
Yes, this project is more complicated than I initially believed. I am just now starting to realize how this stuff all works and fits together, and I now have alot more respect for the guys that do this sort of thing often or professionaly. It is alot of work, but fun and rewarding also. I was definently a little more content before I started reading further on this subject, now it feels like I am at the stage when the complication is setting in. When it comes to technology I am impaired.
I enjoy learning about this though, it is something i should have started back in high school when it first sparked my interest.
thanks for your continued help Swez, Out of all of the forums I found when first begining, this is the only one that I keep comeing back to.
swez on 11/26/2006 07:07:25
Arn't you glad you did not opt for tri-subs and those middle of the road Rockford subs now? Hehe...
Actually, CK is pretty unique as it has a good reputation for accurate advice, timely help and qualified Installers and a few good generalists at your immediate click of the mouse.
Installing is a skill set all its own. However, knowing how to install is one thing. Teaching others to do this via remote control is another issue altogether. Having done a degree of both, I have to confess, installing is definitely not everyones' cup of tea and best left to others that have indeed, mastered that process. (you should see some of the messed up work I have encountered to date and had to go in and do it all over for them)
However, teaching others to do this well, is a whole different can of worms. Words are so inadequate at times and pictures and diagrams often help even more. Then, there's the task of bridging the terminology gap between the reader and the coach.
This field has so many terms and technical jargon, one has to unpack all that and break things down into the simplest of terms for the new guys, so they get the flow of things. That is very hard to do and takes a lot of patience and imagination to convey a complex step, in very simple terms. (That's my personal goal here) Put things on the lower shelves so that others can reach and apply them as needed.
Hopefully, we are doing that part well enough for our "silent" readership??? Basically, there is no such thing as a "stupid question" per-se. But if one reads the FAQ's and DIY artilcles, a good overview will come into focus. If you have not had the opportunity to do so, I encourage you to look them over and get a good fundamental understanding of how this all fits together. With a bit more background information at hand, it's much easier to go through each aspect of an install and do it very will too.
Thanks for visiting CK! If you are getting what you need here, show your appreciation and contribute to the site as you can. This helps CK to help others who come later, just as others have donated to make it possible for us to support you now. It's money well spent!
Sincerely,
Swez
Pepe on 11/29/2006 20:01:47
Swez,
I contacted Bill at knukoncept and told him what my set up was including the Hu and than asked him what he thought I would need for the entire install. This is what he said................
The total current draw of the amps totals 120A, our Kolossus 4 gauge 4 Channel kit with a KNF-12 and some added power wire to go from block to amp will be what you need. You will also need one extra RCA cable (Or purchase the two channel kit and add a 4 channel RCA )
You'll also need extra speaker wire, usually you need 13-15ft per front door speaker and about 5-10ft for rear depending on amp and speaker placement.
So, does this sound right? I am not convinced it is...but I know you and him know a hell of alot more than i do so I figured I'd ask before going any further?
Pepe on 11/29/2006 20:21:26
Swez, If i bought what Bill suggested and used the 20ft of 4/0 power wire to go from the block to my two amps and than bought 1/0 wire for the battery to the block......would this be good?
I will however get the d-block you suggested, because I like it better and it is cheaper. Is 120A good enough? I would prefer to get the 150A fuse.
swez on 11/30/2006 06:14:45
Here's the general idea and products you might want to consider as you plan out your wiring phase of the install:
1. Power Wire: eKo Series 1/0 power line, 18 -20' (BAT to D-block)
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-0BL
2. Inline fuse: Mounted near BAT: 1/0 gage in/out and ANL fuse (120 or 150A is fine) Buy a spare too.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-20
3. D-block: The KNF-12 is a good option here. You'll need mini-ANL fuses to match the amp(s) fuse ratings as well. (A spare set of fuses is recommended too)
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KNF-12
4. #4 gage power lines for each amp that connect between each amp and the D-block. The eKo series is fine here and just figure out the length you need for each.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-4BL
5. #4 gage grounds for each amp. Keep them short as possible.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=eKo-4PRL
6. I agree with Bill's suggestion on speaker lines from amps to each speaker location. Here, #16 gage wire is plenty good.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR16BLS
7. RCA's: One 4 channel line set an one 2 channel line set are good here. They come in 6 meter lengths, (19.5 ft) so you'll have plenty of wire to work with here.
4 channel: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR4-6M
2 channel: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR2-6M
7a. Three pair of these would also work and cheaper too.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
8. As for your sub amp to sub wiring needs, #12 gage is plenty here. Just determine the proper length needed for inside and outside your sub enclosure.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLE12BL
Got all that down?
FYI: I note that copper prices are escalating and there will be some price changes pending as a result. Should not be a big issue on #4 gage and speaker lines. However, the cost of 1/0 cabling will be a big jump as the amount of copper used in this line is substantial.
Swez
PS You will probably want to consider crimp connectors and a GM side terminal battery post extension bolt as well.
1 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=GMBT
1 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=RT1/0516R
2 of these: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=RT4516BK
Pepe on 01/10/2007 23:02:51
Hey Swez,
It been a while, hope your hoidays went well!
I took a long break from the system, but am tired of all this stuff collecting dust. I have been working constanly but found a little time to start building the box yesterday. To say the least it didn't go as planned. I could not store the board flat due to lack of space and it developed a bow. I just say screw the building, I know it can be done easily enough but, I am tired of saying I will build it and not doing so.
So, I cruised the net and found this box......... http://caraudiofactory.com/dual-sealed-p-98.html .......... Do you think this box would be sufficient? I just need something simple that gets the job done.
swez on 01/11/2007 07:40:32
That box is just a tad on the large side for a pair of Alpine SWR series subs. (0.85 cf/chamber VS 1.0 is considered ideal)
It will work, but if you find it a bit boomy and lacking punch, a few small segments of internal bracing boards per chamber will reduce the internal dimensions adequately to tighten things up. The only way to know for sure, is to buy the box, install the subs and let them break in for a week or so. If you find them too boomy after break in period, simply add 3-4 boards per chamber.
2" T x 6" W x 6" L
Also, consider using some type of sound dampening material inside each chamber as well. (1.5" - 2.0" thickness of polyfill or foam padding will do the job here. (Top, bottom, sides and back panel)
Swez ;-)
Pepe on 01/11/2007 13:45:59
Ok Swez,
Thanks for the quik reply. I will keep searching for a box closer to the ideal air space. I am sure I can find one, but if I don't I will definently make the modifications. If I do find one closer to the .85 ft^3 air space, should I also add a sound dampening material to that box?
I have a plastic-based-sort-of-foam I got as pakaging material with a new fridge. It is in large sheets and 1 1/2" thick but can easily be cut to reduce thickness. Would this work as a dampening material? It is a pourous material, but dense enough to be used for archery targets. I Don't know if that bit of info helps any....
Also, I made a mistake in ordering.........I order material for side terminal connections to my baterery, but need top terminal connections. This is due to the fact that my current battery cables are to short to reach the top terminals and have to be sequered to the side terminals.
I have always wondered........Is replacing these factory cables from the battery a task that could be done with out paying a mechanic? I ask becuase their short length is greatly annoying to a point that even fastening them to the side terminals is a chore.
One more thing........ For the "big 3" wiring should I use the same guage as my amp power cable or the 4 guage that is being used for my car currently?
Thankyou agian
Sincerly, Joe
swez on 01/11/2007 18:25:31
Good... we are tracking right along.
1. That box will work OK as is for Rap and other deep bass music. However, if you feel over time it seems a bit boomy or lacks punch, then add the boards noted.
2. That type of foam mentioned is too dense and will not be as effective as a soft sponge foam or polyfill. It may rattle if not glued down very well to. Save that for another project OK.
3. You can buy conversion adapters that turn side mount termination to top mount styles at most any good autoparts stores. The ones I have used before have the hole matched to top mounted batteries and then a 2-3" extension sleeve with tapped holes for side mounting bolts. You'll need one for the Pos and Neg battery terminals as they are different sizes.
3a. Another option is to lop off the side mount harware completely and use a top mount like the WT-BTT. This model has heavy duty parts and 3 wire location points.
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CNOTiLa62YkCFQOYWAod3kiA9Q
4. Replacing factory cables can be easy or very time consuming, depending on how easy it is to get at them. The one from the ALT to Pos battery terminal is usually easy if you can get to the alternator w/o removing too many other items. Here a #2-4 gage line is sufficient and no Big 3 needed here.
The tricky wire to work on is often the heavy gage line that runs down to the starter. Sometimes there is a clamp on that wire and it can be released to provide a few extra inches of wiggle room. If not, one can always cut that wire and splice on additional cable as needed. Here, a 2" section of Copper tubing with about 3/8" I.D. should do nice. Just make sure you get a good mechanical/electrical connection. You can either crimp only or solder. Just be sure to tape it well when finished so it does not short to ground.
Note: If your ground and power lines are already #4 gage wiring, there is no real need for the Big 3 upgrade. These wires are often under 4 feet long and can easily handle high current load surges above 120 amperes. Try what you have now and measure the voltage at each amp. If you find the battery reads say 13.8 volts and the amp power lugs are within 0.2 volts of your battery readings, good to go. But, if you note greater than a 0.5 volt drop at the amp terminals, than doing the Big 3 Upgrade makes sense.
Comments?
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
