Hi,
I upgraded my sound system recently. I put in 2 phoenixgold Titanium elite 12" DVC subs powered by 2 phoenixgold Octane R 8:01 amps The components are apline R in the front and X series in the rear powered by R8:04 amp.
What I have noticed is that at high volumne (greater than 50%) one of the sub amp cuts out and the multi channel amp also cuts out.
Is this a problem with the amps or the alternator?
Alternator is 105 amps in an 2001 Alero.
Replies (8)
swez on 09/9/2006 14:42:41
Seems to me, the Octane R8.0:1 is 400 watts RMS @ 2ohms and each amp will draw over 30A's of current at full power. The R8.0:4 is 75 x 4, and is more of the same.
So, it looks like all 3 amplifiers can pull over 90A's of current and easily overload your stock electrical system.
Also, what make and model HU (CD Player) are you using here? Wire gage for main power line should be at least #4 gage and grounds to each amp should be #8 min.
When the system shuts down, do the power lamps on each amp also go out?
Can think of several more conditions that would set this system in shut down mode:
1. Poor grounding
2. Improper amp gain settings
3. Subs are below 2 ohms
4. HU remote is struggling to support all 3 amps
Any of these items can cause the issues noted in your post. Care to ellaborate on your system install and setup parameters? Did you install this system yourself or was it done by a Professional Installer?
Say more please,
Swez
Victor on 09/9/2006 15:31:01
Relay on remote lead...???
swez on 09/9/2006 16:51:48
That might be part of the solution. Or, there may be a combination of elements here that are adding up to problems as noted.
That REM power feed would be the first thing I would look into. Most aftermarket HU's can support 2-3 REM feeds, depending on rated current. Most HU's I have looked at, say 250-300 mA's of current draw are max. If we exceed that, the amps will shut down and possibly damage the REM power supply in the HU.
To test that theory, a separate circuit to power all amp REM's from ACC/IGN or a relay and separate power feed would be recommended.
Other than that, there are still several other aspects that can cause this problem. I did hint at a few earlier.
In short, this may be a bit more challenging to diagnose on a forum such as CK. You may need a qualified Pro Installer's help to track all this down. (Someone who has several years of 12 volt electronics experience and knows the "diagnostics tree" of possible issues that create this scenario)
Swez
PS Where's "Less is More" when ya need him? He's probably the most qualified installer I can think of on this one.
PSS By the way, where do you live Corb1? If you are near Phoenix, U of KY or Detroit, one of us might be able to sort this all out for you.
UKinstaller on 09/9/2006 17:10:25
it's either gonna be a voltage issue or a remote wire issue. regardless, you should go ahead and put a relay on the remote wire just for good measure. DEFINITELY won't hurt anything, you can only benefit from it. it's real easy. go to radio shack and get an SPDT relay for cars (they're like 2 or 3 bucks) and female spade connectors to connect to it.
wire as follows:
terminal # 30 - this will be your "new" remote wire, the one that can handle three amplifiers. split this wire to feed all three amps at their respective REM connections.
terminal # 85 - connect to ground
terminal # 86 - connect to the remote wire output on your head unit. should be blue / white.
terminal # 87 - connect to 12V. go to either your ignition harness (big fat red wire) or, ideally, go directly to the battery. won't pull any current with the radio off because the remote wire from the head unit triggers the really to activate. no remote - no relay.
make sure to fuse it, though. put like a 10 amp fuse inline with it.
terminal #87a - won't be used
have fun. it's an easy way of getting aquainted with relays. if you ever really get into 12V, you'll have to understand at bare minimum how to wire up a relay.
-UK
Victor on 09/9/2006 19:57:00
thanks for that UK..i was in a hurry to attend a meeting so cudnt wirte that part up..
thats a nice walk through for setting up a relay.. care to cut paste and present it well in form of a FAQ article..??
and ya.. lessismore is definitely missed on CK..
Corbpm1 on 09/18/2006 21:50:17
Thanks for all the responses. I figured out why the multi channel amp was cutting out. It was due to the speaker wires going to the tweeter and woofers were shorting out. Bad electrical taping job on my end. But I still can't seem to figure out why the mono amp would cut out. When it cuts out the all the led are still on. I have a capacitor connected to each amp and I have check all the connections everything seems ok. I'm really stumped on this one. A big part of the problem too is that I tried to make the install like a show car so everthing is tucked underneith the amp rack so not easily accessible.
I do have a relay to power all 3 amps. All the connections seems to be correct. Could it be that it's just a bad amp or is there something else that I missed?
Corbpm1 on 09/18/2006 21:55:22
The two subs are dual 4's so wired them in parallel to 2 ohms each. The HU is Alpine 9815. The power wire is a 4 guage to a distribution block with 8 guage going to each amp. Grough wire is also 4 guage.
How do I test for a voltage drop? Also why would it only shut down on one amp and not all the amps?
swez on 09/19/2006 19:21:30
1. No tape on electrical connections... crimp connectors or solder and shrink tubing are aways the right choices. Tape is fine for bundling cables tight, but not advised for electrical connects alone.
2. A voltage drop test requires a DC volt meter. Here, we measure the voltage at the main BAT and compare that voltage to what is going to the B+/ground lugs on each amp. If we see a change in voltage, greater than 0.5 volts, wire gage, connection integrity and grounding issues are reviewed.
Note: An amp will shut off if input voltage drops below ~10.5 volts. Amps will go into "protect mode" and shut off if they heat up too much, have shorted speaker lines or see very low ohmic loads. Does any of your protect lights come on when the amp shuts down?
Amps will get hot and shut down to cool, if we set the gain and bass boost improperly too. Here, the amp gets too much input signal from the "Source Unit", and the amp gain control is used to match Source Unit voltage. If we set the gain control improperly, (too high of sensitivity) the amp reaches full power, well before the HU reaches ~80% of volume control and this overheats the amp to a point it will shut off to cool.
FYI: HU's have a spec'd range of RCA voltage to feed an amp. Say the HU is 4.0 volts. If we set the amp gain at say ~2.0 volts sensitivity, the amp is now at full power, well before the HU is at full volume. The amp goes into severe "clipping", (high distortion) generates excess heat and will go into protect mode. When the amp cools, it will come back on again.
We can use an AC volt meter to read the amplifiers output voltage to the sub. The Octane R8.0:1 amp is rated at 600 Wrms into a 2 ohm load. The voltage we want to see off the sub terminals would be be ~34.6 volts AC when the HU volume is set at ~80% of max volume. If the amp gains are set improperly, (too sensitive) that voltage target can be reached well before the HU is at that level and shut down.
Finally, the #4 gage wire is a bit small for all these amps. Each sub amp can draw close to 50A's at full power. The 4 channel will draw about 40A's at full power. (50 + 50 + 40 =140 amperes of current) This is way to much current for #4 wire that is longer than 5-6 feet long.
Here, it would be wise to use a larger main power cable, (#2 or even 1/0) to a power distribution block that has 1/0 inputs and a pair of #4 outs, (one per sub amp) and a #8 output for your 8.0:4. The grounds on your 8.0:1's are also #4 wire and the 8:0:4 needs a #8 ground.
Got all that straight now?
swez
PS This is a pretty strong system for a stock electrical system. Most GM's use the 105A ALT (about 50A's at idle, 105A's above 2500 RPM)and ~600 CCA rated BAT from the factory. In this case, you are likely to blow the ALT in short order, depending on your listening habits. A H.O. ALT and high CCA rated BAT are definitely recommended, along with the "Big 3" wiring upgrade:
http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801;p=
I upgraded my sound system recently. I put in 2 phoenixgold Titanium elite 12" DVC subs powered by 2 phoenixgold Octane R 8:01 amps The components are apline R in the front and X series in the rear powered by R8:04 amp.
What I have noticed is that at high volumne (greater than 50%) one of the sub amp cuts out and the multi channel amp also cuts out.
Is this a problem with the amps or the alternator?
Alternator is 105 amps in an 2001 Alero.
Replies (8)
swez on 09/9/2006 14:42:41
Seems to me, the Octane R8.0:1 is 400 watts RMS @ 2ohms and each amp will draw over 30A's of current at full power. The R8.0:4 is 75 x 4, and is more of the same.
So, it looks like all 3 amplifiers can pull over 90A's of current and easily overload your stock electrical system.
Also, what make and model HU (CD Player) are you using here? Wire gage for main power line should be at least #4 gage and grounds to each amp should be #8 min.
When the system shuts down, do the power lamps on each amp also go out?
Can think of several more conditions that would set this system in shut down mode:
1. Poor grounding
2. Improper amp gain settings
3. Subs are below 2 ohms
4. HU remote is struggling to support all 3 amps
Any of these items can cause the issues noted in your post. Care to ellaborate on your system install and setup parameters? Did you install this system yourself or was it done by a Professional Installer?
Say more please,
Swez
Victor on 09/9/2006 15:31:01
Relay on remote lead...???
swez on 09/9/2006 16:51:48
That might be part of the solution. Or, there may be a combination of elements here that are adding up to problems as noted.
That REM power feed would be the first thing I would look into. Most aftermarket HU's can support 2-3 REM feeds, depending on rated current. Most HU's I have looked at, say 250-300 mA's of current draw are max. If we exceed that, the amps will shut down and possibly damage the REM power supply in the HU.
To test that theory, a separate circuit to power all amp REM's from ACC/IGN or a relay and separate power feed would be recommended.
Other than that, there are still several other aspects that can cause this problem. I did hint at a few earlier.
In short, this may be a bit more challenging to diagnose on a forum such as CK. You may need a qualified Pro Installer's help to track all this down. (Someone who has several years of 12 volt electronics experience and knows the "diagnostics tree" of possible issues that create this scenario)
Swez
PS Where's "Less is More" when ya need him? He's probably the most qualified installer I can think of on this one.
PSS By the way, where do you live Corb1? If you are near Phoenix, U of KY or Detroit, one of us might be able to sort this all out for you.
UKinstaller on 09/9/2006 17:10:25
it's either gonna be a voltage issue or a remote wire issue. regardless, you should go ahead and put a relay on the remote wire just for good measure. DEFINITELY won't hurt anything, you can only benefit from it. it's real easy. go to radio shack and get an SPDT relay for cars (they're like 2 or 3 bucks) and female spade connectors to connect to it.
wire as follows:
terminal # 30 - this will be your "new" remote wire, the one that can handle three amplifiers. split this wire to feed all three amps at their respective REM connections.
terminal # 85 - connect to ground
terminal # 86 - connect to the remote wire output on your head unit. should be blue / white.
terminal # 87 - connect to 12V. go to either your ignition harness (big fat red wire) or, ideally, go directly to the battery. won't pull any current with the radio off because the remote wire from the head unit triggers the really to activate. no remote - no relay.
make sure to fuse it, though. put like a 10 amp fuse inline with it.
terminal #87a - won't be used
have fun. it's an easy way of getting aquainted with relays. if you ever really get into 12V, you'll have to understand at bare minimum how to wire up a relay.
-UK
Victor on 09/9/2006 19:57:00
thanks for that UK..i was in a hurry to attend a meeting so cudnt wirte that part up..
thats a nice walk through for setting up a relay.. care to cut paste and present it well in form of a FAQ article..??
and ya.. lessismore is definitely missed on CK..
Corbpm1 on 09/18/2006 21:50:17
Thanks for all the responses. I figured out why the multi channel amp was cutting out. It was due to the speaker wires going to the tweeter and woofers were shorting out. Bad electrical taping job on my end. But I still can't seem to figure out why the mono amp would cut out. When it cuts out the all the led are still on. I have a capacitor connected to each amp and I have check all the connections everything seems ok. I'm really stumped on this one. A big part of the problem too is that I tried to make the install like a show car so everthing is tucked underneith the amp rack so not easily accessible.
I do have a relay to power all 3 amps. All the connections seems to be correct. Could it be that it's just a bad amp or is there something else that I missed?
Corbpm1 on 09/18/2006 21:55:22
The two subs are dual 4's so wired them in parallel to 2 ohms each. The HU is Alpine 9815. The power wire is a 4 guage to a distribution block with 8 guage going to each amp. Grough wire is also 4 guage.
How do I test for a voltage drop? Also why would it only shut down on one amp and not all the amps?
swez on 09/19/2006 19:21:30
1. No tape on electrical connections... crimp connectors or solder and shrink tubing are aways the right choices. Tape is fine for bundling cables tight, but not advised for electrical connects alone.
2. A voltage drop test requires a DC volt meter. Here, we measure the voltage at the main BAT and compare that voltage to what is going to the B+/ground lugs on each amp. If we see a change in voltage, greater than 0.5 volts, wire gage, connection integrity and grounding issues are reviewed.
Note: An amp will shut off if input voltage drops below ~10.5 volts. Amps will go into "protect mode" and shut off if they heat up too much, have shorted speaker lines or see very low ohmic loads. Does any of your protect lights come on when the amp shuts down?
Amps will get hot and shut down to cool, if we set the gain and bass boost improperly too. Here, the amp gets too much input signal from the "Source Unit", and the amp gain control is used to match Source Unit voltage. If we set the gain control improperly, (too high of sensitivity) the amp reaches full power, well before the HU reaches ~80% of volume control and this overheats the amp to a point it will shut off to cool.
FYI: HU's have a spec'd range of RCA voltage to feed an amp. Say the HU is 4.0 volts. If we set the amp gain at say ~2.0 volts sensitivity, the amp is now at full power, well before the HU is at full volume. The amp goes into severe "clipping", (high distortion) generates excess heat and will go into protect mode. When the amp cools, it will come back on again.
We can use an AC volt meter to read the amplifiers output voltage to the sub. The Octane R8.0:1 amp is rated at 600 Wrms into a 2 ohm load. The voltage we want to see off the sub terminals would be be ~34.6 volts AC when the HU volume is set at ~80% of max volume. If the amp gains are set improperly, (too sensitive) that voltage target can be reached well before the HU is at that level and shut down.
Finally, the #4 gage wire is a bit small for all these amps. Each sub amp can draw close to 50A's at full power. The 4 channel will draw about 40A's at full power. (50 + 50 + 40 =140 amperes of current) This is way to much current for #4 wire that is longer than 5-6 feet long.
Here, it would be wise to use a larger main power cable, (#2 or even 1/0) to a power distribution block that has 1/0 inputs and a pair of #4 outs, (one per sub amp) and a #8 output for your 8.0:4. The grounds on your 8.0:1's are also #4 wire and the 8:0:4 needs a #8 ground.
Got all that straight now?
swez
PS This is a pretty strong system for a stock electrical system. Most GM's use the 105A ALT (about 50A's at idle, 105A's above 2500 RPM)and ~600 CCA rated BAT from the factory. In this case, you are likely to blow the ALT in short order, depending on your listening habits. A H.O. ALT and high CCA rated BAT are definitely recommended, along with the "Big 3" wiring upgrade:
http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801;p=
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