Here are pictures of my competition car stereo from this summer. This will give you an idea of how people like their cars down here in the Virgin Islands. No car is designed specifically for spl or sq. The main competition we all love, which there aren't even prizes for, is the Grudge match. 2 cars line up head to head and take turns playing a song for 1 minute. The crowd decides who was their favorite based on how loud and how clean they sounded. People wanna hear you comin way before they see you. And talk about a tail gate party car!
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2018197&l=7dea6&id=1701198
-Ian-
Replies (32)
swez on 09/1/2006 18:19:24
That's a pretty wild setup Ian. Interesting array of speakers, subs and amps in a small SUV setup and those horns... must be pretty loud too huh? It looks like the upper dash has a large array of mid/highs too?
I take it pic #1 is you and your girl? Nice couple... looks like a good match if she does not mind this wild hobby.
Enjoy your experiments,
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/1/2006 19:04:26
hahaha! no, not my girlfriend. Just the only one around who wanted to travel to another island for the car show. I like my girls petite...
Yea, loud would be an understatement. It's basically a night club on wheels.
The dash speakers are in a custom enclosure i built out of expanding foam, shaved down, and then covered with black construction paper and grill cloth.
An experiment is definitely a good way to describe it. Every year around car show time, I never know what I'm gonna end up with in my car.
-Ian-
cybersailor420 on 09/1/2006 19:06:03
by the way, I didn't know if you noticed, but some of the pictures have captions to describe everything.
wtmke1 on 09/1/2006 19:12:23
yea thats a cool setup. and the chick is hott too
swez on 09/2/2006 12:05:47
Yes, I read the captions on some and after looking very close at the install, give you an A for creativity and cramming as much as possible into a small format SUV. LOL That's like 20 pounds of coconuts in a 5 pound bag... hehe
Swez
ttocs on 09/3/2006 14:04:24
How many speakers are in that car? Any idea what kind of DB numbers you are making?
my only concern was if the boxes were mounted down?? If not then you better be prayin ya don't have a wreck.....
cybersailor420 on 09/3/2006 22:29:08
Swez - hilarious comments about the girl. Definitely had me crackin up! And thanx for the kudos on being able to put an abusrd (some may say unnecessary) amount of speakers in my car.
Scott - Um, a lot! As far as DB numbers, I hit 151.0 decibels. I know it doesn't sound like much by state-side standards, but I was the first one to ever break 150 in the virgin islands. I am only running a stock alternator and had 2 750 CCA Optima Yellowtop batteries. No car down here is setup purely for spl, so we just take our day to day drivers in and see what happens.
and yes, i mounted all the boxes to the car and to each other. too many hills and bumps here to not do it.
The only thing left in the car now is the 15's in the back and the speakers on each door. My back seat fits perfectly with the box in the back. I'll put pictures up when I get everything the way i want it, including building a cover for the amps in the back.
Victor on 09/4/2006 02:33:52
151 seems good number, but the same can be achieved with a single woofer in a well designed enclosure and a single powerful amp..
if one spends on sound damping and proper electrical upgrades instead of soo many subs and amp, it wud be a much much better setup .
tho its pretty appreciable that you could put in soo many subs and amp in such a cramp space..
Victor...
swez on 09/4/2006 11:25:04
Indeed, I'd have to agree w/ Vic on this one. A very well planned out system with minimal sub woofers and plenty of sound dampening, could do better SPL #'s here and sound better too.
See, SPL is actually a measure of pressure that a sonic wave can generate in a confined space. Sound dampening and other air leak sealing methods help to maintain that air pressure inside a vessle. (our vehicle) The less sonic pressure that leaks out, the higher the SPL numbers we can achieve. Heck, that pair of MTX subs with a strong amp could probably get the job done alone. Or, those 15's can be your crash test subjects too.
Also, where do they place the SPL transducer during an SPL test? Usually at the dash I believe??? Well, proximity of the mike to measured speakers also matters. At the cone, we have higher SPL numbers. As we move away from the cone, SPL decreases at a predictable roll-off rate too. The closer the speakers are positioned to the transducer, the higher the SPL #'s will be. (A one meter distance, [~39"] is the test parameter for most speaker testing plots.
A last thought here... is there a specific criteria of frequency range the SPL is measured at? Deep lows, (below 40 Hz.) take a lot of energy to reproduce. As we go higher in frequency, less energy is needed to get the same SPL #. (Speaker efficiencies go up with frequecy) If we couple that with vehicle resonances, (55-70 Hz.) we get maximum SPL #'s with minimal effort from the subs. This is where a special tuning port can be employed and only used for SPL tests and Comps only.
Here, a special box design can be made with swappable port modules. For everyday driving, a port that is tuned to say 35 Hz., is used. When you wish to do SPL tests and Comps, remove these ports, and install a module that drops right in. This port system is tuned to the vehicle resonance frequency. Now, you have a nice Daily Driver system and one for Comps only. Here, we only use 1 enclosure, dual subs and adjust the port tuning function, based on application. (A lot easier than lugging a bunch of heavy gear in and out huh?
Does this sound interesting to you Ian? This is a "Brain vs Brawn" approach. Since you are not 6'4" and 250 pounds, won't need 2 men and a boy to lug all that heavy gear in and out. It won't wear you out and leaves some room in the back for camping out under the stars with your petite g/f. (Or a larger boned one for that matter... hehe)
Swez
PS Those 15's you have at the top, what are they and how much RMS power can they take? Do you know the port tuning frequency of them?
All I am pointing out, is that you can get the same or better SPL numbers with far less hardware, if you allow acoustical physics to do the work, rather than brute force of many large cones. With all the extra cones going, cancellations and null nodes have to be hurting your overall numbers here. A less is more approach takes more mental work to design and test it out. But moving all that gear in and out has got to be a major PITA!!! "Ohhh.... my achin' back!" COFFEE
Victor on 09/4/2006 15:29:40
I dunno if you planning to upgrade your system .. but if I was you i would sell all the gear u have right now and Get 1 or 2 powerful subs with a higher X-max and decent sensitivity rating and a solid stable amp.
A well designed ported or EBS enclosure, lots of sound damping and a 200amp + alternator with the Big 3 done, the yellow top batts u already have so wouldnt need to change them.
This kinda setup can easily get you to mid 150's.
This way It would save a lot of energy doing the in-outs with those huge boxes everytime you compete. and also you can have a high SPL vehicle in everyday ride too + lots of usable space.
This is just a suggestion, next time you think of changing your system this is definitely the right approach.IDEA
Victor...
MrBrownstone on 09/4/2006 15:35:52
I would spend most of my time on harnessing the acoustics of the vehicle and the enclosure design. You may go through 30 enclosures to get from 151 to 157..but hey! They don't call it an obsession for nothing.
It appears that you are experiencin a lot of cancellation just from the design. You would be better served if you had a wall--separating the front seats from the back of the vehicle...and all woofers on the same plane. Just 2 woofers, and 1 amp, and you'll likely see the same numbers.
With your system, you may want to first study the vehicle. Once you find out the most common and strongest resonances (say 48 to 60 Hz) you can design your enclosure ports around those resonances and maximize your performance. From there, it's about maximizing the efficiency of the woofer.
Woofer...even if the mfr says 2 cuft and specific length ports, you can stretch out efficiency, capacity, etc, but balooning the enclosure and experimenting with ports. 5 years ago (God! has it been that long?) we ran enclosures just slightly below Vas (basically free air) with slotted ports ranging from 45Hz to 70Hz.
More later..
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 13:13:34
Hey guys. Great comments by all, and I agree with all of you 100%. I have been kind of hesitant to redo my system, since I just dealt with all that crap for the car shows, however I just started having issues again with noise through my speakers. I have been using a portable cd player to run my system for the last week, and it has been working fine. Just yesterday I started having problems again. I get a lot of noise when my cd player is plugged in to the charger and the amplifiers. When I unplug my car charger, most of the noise goes away, but there is still a constant buzzing noise (not engine noise). I tried plugging it directly into the amps, and I still get the noise (even on the bass amp). So I have no idea what this could be. I may try using my laptop as another external audio source and see if that works. But other wise, I have absolutely no idea how all these speakers could be getting noise, unless maybe a speaker wire is grounding somewhere... Does this sound like a possible cause?
Anyways, point being that I think I am gonna rip out all my speaker and RCA wires, sell my cd player (if I can get it fixed) and possibly the new Soundstream amps I got (because I am not sure if they are giving me any of these problems I am having). Basically, the only things I really want to keep are:
(1) 2 Kicker SX650.1 bass amps (since I will not be able to sell them for what they're worth, and I really like them)
(2) Audiocontrol Epic160
(3) mid/high speakers and tweeters
I currently have two 15" Kicker L7's in a 3.5 cu. ft. box per sub, tuned to 38 hz. I have had these for a while and really like them, but am willing to sell them if you guys can think of some subs that can put out more sound (higher xmax presumably) for about the same price. I could probably sell these for $500-$600 down here, so I would be looking for some replacement subs that are close to that budget. I have a special place in my heart for 15s, so I prefer to stick to that. It would also be nice if the new subs could work with the two Kicker amps I currently have.
I think two of my first purchases would be a high output alternator from Ohio Generators (165-180 max, 85-90 at idle), which is almost $600. I would also like to get my hands on an AudioControl DQXS, but that's more of a wish list item.
If you guys wanna start throwin out ideas about subs and enclosures, and possibly new sub amps if you think i should/need to ditch the ones I have, that would be awesome. Maybe this can be a good exercise for other SPL heads out there.
Thanx alot guys. Looking forward to some really awesome ideas.
-Ian-
P.S. Swez, the meters are normally placed by the passengers feet. However, in the last competition they used what they call a "reality spl test," which places the meter on the driver's seat, about where your ears would be... I got almost 5 decibels lower on this meter than on the previous one.
swez on 09/7/2006 16:06:00
Ian,
Thanks for clarifying where the SPL mike is positioned in your drags.
I believe there are some simple reasons for the noise problems mentioned. However, they may not be easy to track down.
1. The charger mentioned, some have very cheap circuits and do induce noise when in use. I have noticed this in one of my stup cell phone chargers. When I use it in the car... lots of weird noises. When I unplug it, all noises go away. Hense, a cheap charger that is very noisy.
2. Chances are good that your speakers and amps are fine if amp are well grounded and so are the RCA's and HU. With all that SPL, it is possible to loosen grounds and even damage HU/CD players. This may be the root cause of problems noted.
3. It would be a good idea to test all amps on a clean power supply and known good signal source like your portable CD or laptop as players. The keys here, are a quiet power source like a few car BATs in parallel and perhaps a charger on them to keep them at peak output. If you find there is noise, diconnect the charger and see if that noise goes away. (Test using full range music and speakers for best results)
4. If all amps test good and clean, your noise is upstream in the HU, Epic or RCA's. Here, you've eliminated the amps as a source of noise now. So, GIGO is likely the case.
5. As for your bass engine, do keep your Kicker amps and subs for now. They are proven winners and if you mount the sub boxes to the floor of your Vatara, you'll get some nice bass transfer effect as well. Yes, there are more efficient subs out there to choose from. But for now, optimization of what you have in hand, is always a good strategy.
6. As for mid/highs speakers and amps... keep it simple, but make it strong. The more simplified you can do all these connections, the less problems have to be chased down later.
7. Consider using a common grounding system (Ground Distribution block) for everything audio in this install. That means amps, HU, Epic and what have you. A common grounding point will eliminate most/all ground loop issues.
Could you be very specific on the noise you are getting now? Some noises are easy to track down the source. Here are a few common ones:
a. Constant low frequency humming is often a loose RCA ground or poorly grounded RCA's to amps and source unit.
b. Engine whine, spark ticks and changes in pitch of noise are a sign of ground loops. (Need all audio gear at the same ground potential)
c. A failing ALT can also produce noises. When brushes are worn, stator or a few blown diodes are present, output power will drop and some noise may be added as well. (This is a bit more challenging to track down)
Finally, it's very easy to want to throw the "baby out w/ the bath water" when we put so much effort into a project and then "snigglets hit the wall" and drive us crazy. When that happens, it's best to just walk away from it, shut everything down and take a mental vacation until sanity returns.
It's a known fact that when we get frustrated or angry, we lose a lot of problem solving faculties in the brain for a time. Here, it's just best to walk away, divert attention to something benign or pleasing until we calm down. (Go fishing, scuba diving, relax at the beach... whatever)Any wise person knows when it's time to quit banging away at a problem...give it a rest and come back with the mind fresh and well rested.
Make sense bro?
Swez
Victor on 09/7/2006 18:35:57
been working a lot with CV these days... and was pretty impressed with the way this sub performs, with about 3" one way excursion, this sub can move some serious air...
http://cerwinvega.com/products/mobileaudio/strokerpro/strokerprogroups.html
http://cerwinvega.com/products/pdf/mobile/strokerpromanual.pdf
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 18:57:46
hey guys. I will come back to everything else in my next post. I just wanted to make a quick note before dinner about my noise issue. Before trying another source in my car, I plugged my portable dvd/cd player into my home stereo and found that I'm getting the same noise as in my car?!?! So apparently something in my car has damaged the outputs on my pioneer cd player and my portable dvd/cd player... What the heck could cause this? I'm afraid to connect anything else to my car until I can be 100% sure I've traced down what is doing this.
My only thought is that the most recent thing I've added to this system is my speakers on the rear doors. Maybe one of the speaker wires is shorting out... but even if it was, would it cause this to happen?
Totally confused...
swez on 09/7/2006 23:00:58
If the speakers added were amped off an outboard amp, not likely to be an issue.
It does sound like you are having some severe ground loop problems in the car. If the players are not grounded properly to the rest of your gear, the players will try to find grounds from the RCA's or antenna feeds. (NOT GOOD!!!) This causes an imbalance to the player and can damage preamp circuits in them... thus you get noise. If these are expensive players, (DVD) good chance it's a trip to the repair shop for some board module swaps. (That will take time and you'll be w/o them for a while unless you have swap type warranty plan)
It all points back to what I mentioned earlier... a step by step testing of each amp in the system with a known good player source. As long as all amps check out, you passed that test. The next step is going back through all your signal lines form a known good source unit.
FYI: Most HU's can deliver 2.0 - 4.0 volts of RCA voltage to a given amp input. If you split these to driver mutiple amps, that may be enough to damage the HU preamp that supplies RCA voltage due to impedence mismatch problems. Here, a multi-channel output Line Driver can resolve some of that. There again, grounding all preamps and such in the audio signal chain are very important.
Can you give a detailed accounting of how each amp was wired from your HU to all amps and Epic 160? That may help a lot in diagnosing what's going on now and how to correct it with your next iteration.
Swez
PS I see the Epic 160 is only 2 inputs and 2 outputs. This is fine for sub amps. However, if you are using several 4 channel amps to power mid/highs and splitting them off the HU RCA's w/o a line driver, this could be why your HU failed. It may not support extra channels unless each amp has pass through preamps. Comments???
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 23:47:29
Hey Swez. So, I think you may have found the problem. First, quick overview of how RCA's were run when my pioneer cd player got messed up:
Subs: cd player sub out => Epic160 => 2 Kicker SX650.1 (strapped)
Tweeters: cd player front L/R => channels 3/4 on one amp
Mids: cd player rear L/R => split between 2 other 4 channel amps and channels 1/2 on previous amp.
so basically for the mids, I split one set of outputs to run 5 pairs of channels... this is probably the problem you were looking for. I didn't know this could damage the outputs on a cd player. I never turned the cd player volume above 3/4, but I did have my gains set relatively high to make up for the weak signal after splitting it so much.
I'm going to try to send my portable dvd/cd player back under warranty, since I just got it. As far as my Pioneer cd player, I'm wondering if it will be worth it to get it fixed. Is this an expensive fix?
I'll wait for your reply before going further on this.
cybersailor420 on 09/8/2006 00:30:45
I'll use this post to get back to some of your questions and suggestions about the bass part of my system.
First off, parameters for my 15" Kicker L7s:
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2006/2006%20L7%20Sub%20b01%20WEB.pdf
My current box (per sub) is 3.5 cubic feet, tuned to approximately 38 hertz. I did have a box that was 5 cubic feet per sub and tuned to approximately 33 hertz, but the back rests for the rear seat wouldn't fit with it. Also, I didn't notice any change in SPL numbers with the smaller box. If anything, I just have more responsive bass.
As far as the resonance of the vehicle, I don't know how to accurately measure this (and am sure I don't have the equipment to do so). However, I have found that using test tones between 48 and 51 hertz net the highest SPL numbers. I spent a while testing and using my Epic160 as a reference.
I was definitely getting cancellation between the two pairs of subs. They were approximately 90 degrees out of phase. However, my amps only had phase adjusments for 0 and 180. But I did get 5 more decibels than I was getting with just the 2 15s, so I decided to leave the 12s in just for the show. I won't be putting them in again though, so that's not an issue worth worrying about.
Victor, those are some awesome subs you mentioned. They may be a little over the top and a little out of my price range though. Cerwin Vega was my first love in car audio, so it's good to see they've still got it. If I were designing a purely SPL, non-daily driver, these would be an excellent option. The other issue with these would be finding a way to ship them to the Virgin Islands, since each one w/ shipping box weighs 100lbs. I don't think I can ship any package more than 70 lbs down here. I'd have to research that though...
I do have the big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. And yes, I do have one Optima Yellow top 750 CCA up front, and one sitting in my room. I don't really have room to put this in the back, unless I scrap my idea of keeping a low profile look (the sub box sits behind the rear seats and the top is level with the back rests. The amps are mounted on the back of the box facing the rear door). However, I may have room on the opposite wheel well under the hood. I think I can handle building a custom battery mount. Then I assume I just wire them up (battery isolator or no?). Would it matter which battery I run the power from, or does it only matter that everything is connected in one form or another (I know it would matter if I used an isolator).
That's it for now. I think I've answered all your questions and info requests...
swez on 09/8/2006 20:32:07
Think we found your problem Ian.
"Subs: cd player sub out => Epic160 => 2 Kicker SX650.1 (strapped)"
This is correct and no strain on the HU/Source player.
"Tweeters: cd player front L/R => channels 3/4 on one amp"
This too is good.
"Mids: cd player rear L/R => split between 2 other 4 channel amps and channels 1/2 on previous amp."
This is the one that bites. This has 5 pairs of RCA's to feed your amp channels and probably caused the problems noted on your HU and other players.
See, preamp RCA's typically see amp input loads between 10-20K Ohms per channel. However, in a 5 way split, the load the preamp sees, is ~1/5th it's normal operational load impedence range. That's really hard on a HU that is designed to match an amp or two at most.
Analogy: An amp is spec'd at a given output wattage level into a 2-4 ohm load. However, if we ran several speakers in parallel to that amp, and the amp sees a net 0.5 ohms, somethings got to give right?
Amps have protection circuits to prevent damage due to ultra-low ohmic loads and high current draw. (Preamps often do not) So, how do we work around such complex installs?
Line Drivers, EQ/LD and Active Crossover Networks have fixed inputs for matching HU preamp impedence needs. They also have multiple pairs of output preamp channels to drive amps with adequate signal voltages. Now, each amp gets enough Line level signal voltage and all the preamps are happy too.
The other option we can employ, is to use an amp that has outputs to feed other amps with a separate line level preamp circuits. This is much better than the "Y" splitter option used in your present install. Each amp gets a dedicated preamp voltage input that is impedence matched to the next amp in the chain. The "Y" splitter method is OK for 2 amp channels. But, when it must feed 5 amp channels, something had to give... your Source Unit preamps went kaput.
Got all that?
Swez
swez on 09/8/2006 21:46:38
QUOTE: "I do have the big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. And yes, I do have one Optima Yellow top 750 CCA up front, and one sitting in my room. I don't really have room to put this in the back, unless I scrap my idea of keeping a low profile look (the sub box sits behind the rear seats and the top is level with the back rests. The amps are mounted on the back of the box facing the rear door). However, I may have room on the opposite wheel well under the hood. I think I can handle building a custom battery mount. Then I assume I just wire them up (battery isolator or no?). Would it matter which battery I run the power from, or does it only matter that everything is connected in one form or another (I know it would matter if I used an isolator)."
In some cases, your ALT can manage dual "MATCHED" batteries w/o an isolator. In this case, it really depends on the output rating of your present ALT and what kind of loads the amps put on the system, as a daily driver.
Isolators are useful when we encounter unbalanced loads to each BAT. The isolator will moitor charge levels of each BAT and when one BAT drops below charging threshold, the ISO allocates all charging power to top it off again.
In this case, balanacing the load each BAT has would be most beneficial. The starter BAT comes into play, only when you start the engine. Once the engine is running, the ALT charges that BAT and supplies all (Voltage x Current = Watts) = power needed by the entire system.
The main BAT will assist, (provide power) only when the ALT is maxed out and system needs are greater than the ALT can supply. Here, is where things get dicey. Watch your voltage minder on the Epic 160. When voltage drops below 12.5 volts, (Or lower) and remains constant, your BAT is being tapped for additional power. as the ALT can no longer keep up.
If you added a 2nd BAT to the system, now there is more reserve power available to your amplifiers and car devices. However, this too can become overtaxed in time and needs to be charged up again as well. Here, your Voltage minder will drop below 12.5 volts and if it goes below ~10.5 volts, the computer will shut off the engine. Got all that?
Now, you have an advantage here with dual BATs. (More reserve current available) But when the Voltage minder dips below 12.5 volts, shut off the audio system and let the ALT charge up both BATs again. (Just watch your Epic display until you see a steady 13.5 volts again) Now, you can turn on your audio gear again.
If using an ISOlator, use the diode type version. It takes less power when in use. Also, consider balancing your amplifiers off each BAT if possible. The sub amps on one BAT and your full range amps off the other would be a good option. Yes, that means running dual power feed lines and D-blocks too. But a well balanced load to each BAT will make it easier on your ALT and such as well.
Hope that helps,
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 13:16:20
Thanx again for the replies Swez.
I did actually use the amp outputs on my two bigger 4 channel amps. I guess I should just tell you about my current setup now, since that is what messed up the audio output on my portable dvd/cd player.
I have one set of RCAs that goes back to one of my sub amps (which is strapped with the other). I used the RCA output on this amp and split it to run channels 1/2 on my two 4 channel amps. I then used the output from those channels to run channels 3/4 on the respective amps.
Were you saying that using these outputs restores the signal strength and ohmic load? Do they act as a simple line driver?
Well, I guess regardless of all that, I will be getting a line driver (hopefully line driver, crossover combo) before I put in a new head unit. I will also be running all new RCA cords, and going over all my speaker wire runs to make sure there are no issues with the wires. I am also going to run some 8 gauge ground from my grounding place in the back up to the point were my head unit is grounded. I may even run one back from the battery to this spot as well, thus hopefully eliminating any chance of a ground loop.
BATTERY:
I was running through the different scenarios in my head, and the only reason I see for running an isolator would be if I want to run my stereo off the second battery and have a way of preventing the main battery from dying if playing the stereo while the car is off. Other than that, if I wire them together with no isolator, current should travel to the battery more in need on its own, right? I can't remember what this law is called, but I know it's in my notebooks somewhere.... haha
I also like your idea of splitting the amp loads between batteries. And I guess it never hurts to have extra current-carrying wire going to your amps (running 2 power wires).
swez on 09/10/2006 17:01:07
QUOTE" "Were you saying that using these outputs restores the signal strength and ohmic load? Do they act as a simple line driver?"
Most newer amps have pass through RCA's to allow one to daisy chain several amps together. However, do they also have preamps to allow adequate voltage or just parallel taps from the main inputs? (I cannot say for sure) If these are non-preamped outs, they are no better than "Y" patch cables and RCA signal voltage is reduced as we patch from one amp to another. That's why LD's and multi-output processors work so much better.
BATTERIES:
Yes, in this case, dual BAT's would be a good option. One can be for dedicated use to support your bass engine, (Current buffer like a huge CAP, only better) while the stock BAT supports your full range amps. Here, the ISO helps as it won't allow one BAT to borrow/scavenge current from the other. Hense the term... Battery Isolator.
May I suggest a careful review of all the details for your new install and using a multi-output LD/EQ or LD/X-over in the future. This should eliminate most problems to date and protect your new HU as well/
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 18:04:48
No worries Swez, I will definitely be purchasing a line driver, at the least. Hopefuly I can find one combined with a crossover that will suit my needs, as mentioned in my other post.
As far as the batteries... say I do the setup you mentioned, and put an isolator between the batteries. when the bass hits and starts to drain that battery, won't the isolator start sending current from the main battery to the other battery anyways?
swez on 09/10/2006 18:27:40
QUOTE: As far as the batteries... say I do the setup you mentioned, and put an isolator between the batteries. when the bass hits and starts to drain that battery, won't the isolator start sending current from the main battery to the other battery anyways?"
No, the ISO will monitor power in each BAT separately. If the sub BAT goes below ISO thresholds, the ALT will only charge the BAT that is taking the drops. ISO's monitor both BATs, but only charge the BAT that drops below the ISO's pre-determined "feed me" set points.
The ISO is connected right off the ALT output lug. It then splits outputs to each BAT. It monitors BAT levels and only charges the one in need and leaves the other one as is. It will also switch from Charging BAT Sub to BAT Car, once the sub BAT is back up to snuff. (Or visa-versa) The ISO will not allow one BAT to scavange or swap power based on loads to either BAT. That's why this is a good option for the system you have been working on. That's what is meant by "dedicated" power sources.
Got all that Ian?
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 18:56:38
huh... i may have a different isolator than you are thinking of:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_5287.html
It has a grounding post, turn- on post, and power in and power out posts. I don't see a way to run this between the alternator and the two seperate batteries... Is this the right isolator for the application you're speaking of?
swez on 09/11/2006 06:42:47
Yes, this is the relay/solinoid version and it should work out fine. Here, the Pac-200 senses BAT storage capacity, and sends power as needed to the AUX BAT.
The main BAT is directly coupled to the ALT and will only draw charging current as needed, to feed all car devices and any other loads, (Amplifiers) that may be on the main BAT.
The only problem with the Pac-200, it does not have dual sensing/charging circuits. Here, if the main BAT is depleated and so is the AUX BAT, the ALT will have to charge both BAT's and power all loads the car demands.
In this case, it might be good to monitor both BAT's for charging status and even ALT output. The Epic 160 can be powered off the PAC-200 as a monitor for the AUX line. Your cigarette lighter can be used as a port to monitor voltage and current off the ALT and main BAT system.
What is the maximum current output of your present ALT?
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/11/2006 15:10:08
I believe my current ALT output is 80 amps... There is a 100 amp factory-installed fuse between the ALT and BAT, but I'm 99.9% sure I read somewhere that it only puts out 80 amps.
It is not hard for me to sell car audio parts down here, so if I should invest in a dual sensing/charging isolator, that is definitely a possibility. I could then just sell the one I have.
I guess that clarifies that issue. I will probably wait to do this setup until after I get a HO alternator, as I have been meaning to get one forever, and just never seem to save up quite enough money...
lessismorespl on 09/11/2006 16:56:56
Your system is definately an interesting one. With your available cabin space, I'm quite surprised you hit 150+. There has to be some serious cancellation. Looking at your system, I think you could hit much higher numbers by using 2 MTX 9500's(I have seen 2 of these hit high 150's) along with the 2 Kicker Solo Barics(I have seen 2 of these hit close to 160), so if you ran just those 4 subs in a properly made enclosure(I will talk of later) you could easily have a mid 160 to high 160 SUV.
Also, I would definately try to find some MDF to build your enclosures b/c plywood/ply board has way too much flex, and is impossible to seal.... of course you could line the insides of enclosures w/ spray-on bedliner or liquid sound dampening and layer the outside w/ fiberglass. You seem to have the correct airspace and the ports seem to be well in place, however the material used in these enclosures does not work well, especially w/ higher end subs, which you are using. Just some suggestions.
Nice for DIY system.
less
swez on 09/11/2006 17:36:03
Ahhhh, now we're getting some real brass on the the old shifter!
Ian, listen to this fellow Less... he's got more SPL experience under his belt then most guys I have ever come across. (No, am not passing gas or just being nice) So, if he makes a comment, hang on and run with it. Less has been here on and off for ~2 years. When he makes his case, most of us listen and learn something too. He's no upstart and I hold this fellow in high regard.
Swez
PS Welcome back Less! Good to see ya posting again.
cybersailor420 on 09/11/2006 19:58:29
Glad to see someone else chiming in. I have been on this website for probably 3 years now, and trust all of your input.
There are many reasons that I am not hitting the SPL numbers I should:
lack of power
no sound damping
no panel reinforcement
lack of funds/knowledge for box experimentation
definitely cancelation when running those 4 subs
I'm sure you guys can think of more. Since I don't know what's brewin in your mind right now Less, let me just clarify that in the future I will only be using those 2 15's; the 12's were a temporary "just for the hell of it" addition.
I agree that I should be hitting much bigger numbers, and am not sure if it is mainly one of the reasons above, or all them (I assume all, as every little bit counts).
My only reason for using plywood is that lumber yards are not allowed to carry MDF down here, b/c termites will get to it in no time. The last box I made for my subs was MDF, b/c I place a huge order from Florida for a bunch of people down here that I was building boxes for. However, I car shop on a near by island did just start selling it, so any future boxes I make will be MDF.
As usual, I am open to any and all ideas. This is the first time I've been home long enough to really do any work on my car, so I have plenty of time to take it slow, do it right, and save up for whatever it is I really need.
-Ian-
PS. Swez, I haven't gotten around to answering the other post yet, but I just wanted to let you know I did read it. I appreciate all the time you put in, and would be more than happy to help you on the way towards your goal (being a fisher myself). I don't know what I can afford, but let me know what you think is reasonable. I will get back to that post soon.
lessismorespl on 09/11/2006 20:52:05
I failed to notice you are from the Virgin Islands. I know how hard it is to aquire MDF in some of those regions. There are ways around it. Your enclosures appear to be well built, considering the material used. If you can get some spray-on bedliner, or have access to some liquid sound dampening....or even better...does anyplace there do spray -on liners? Do the inside of the enclosure...use some silicone caulk to seal all the seams first.....then give it 2-4 coats of bedliner or liquid sound dampening. Then for the outside of the enclosure, lay some mat, or you could use some heavy flannel material and lay a couple coats of fiberglass(the kind they use to repair boats works just fine), if you are concerned about how it would look, sand it good and buy some good spray paint to give it a more cosmetic look.
The work you did w/ your mids and highs is really good. I like your ideas w/ all the mids/highs.....reflection is very important for the highs, not so much for the mids. You have plenty of room to run both the 15's and the 12's, take the horns out and build a wall w/ seperate air space for each set, and of course ported/vented. As for power, it seems you are running plenty of power, and the extra Yellow Top helps lower resistence. Maybe do a Big 3 Upgrade and add another Yellow Top under the hood, or even a Red Top, this will help your overall voltage and help prevent any irregualr peaks.
As for your wiring, I say this to many people......"who cares how it looks"
If you look at many of the cars in dB Drag comp. they are not all that pretty. To me, it is all about how it sounds, be it SQ, SQL, or str8 SPL.
In my experiences, the loudest systems are not works of art...only in how they sound.
Good luck on your experiments w/ your system....that is how you learn and get better at it....we all started somewhere and we have all had our successes and failures...if some-one tells you they never had a failed system or built a bafd system...then they do not know sound systems...that is how we learn...experiments and learning from our previous mistakes.
You are definately on the right track.
less
Nice 2 be back Swez.......you know I can never stay away too long.
less
cybersailor420 on 09/17/2006 22:54:42
Hey Less,
Thanx for the suggestions. I do already have my Big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. The reason I will not be putting the 12's back in is that they do not belong to me, and I am selling them soon for my friend.
My goal now is to have my car as a funtional, 4 passenger, daily driver. The box for the 2 15's sits in the back flush mounted along the back of the seats and level with top of the seats (back seats). The amps are still mounted on the back of the box. This way, all you see is the top of the box with the two port openings.
The only other speakers I will have in are the mounts on each door.
I like your idea of designing a box in which I can change the port lengths (and thus the tuning frequency) for SPL competitions or for a daily driver. However, I'm not sure if I can accomplish this setup to its full potential while still remaining within my size constraints. I spent a while designing and building the box I have in there now, which utilizes pretty much all of the space in the back from the top of the back seats to the floor, and side to side. You can even see where I designed the box to be wider above the wheel wells.
What is the average range of port tuning frequencies for SPL setups? I know that with the last setup I had, my vehicle was reaching max SPL at about 48-51 hz., with each of my 2 15's in a 5 cu.ft. box tuned to about 33.8 hz. I know that is low for true SPL setups, but that is what the kicker tech helped me design for a daily driver/spl setup.
I would love to hear all that you have to say about this, as I have little experience with real SPL setups.
Thanx again.
-Ian-
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2018197&l=7dea6&id=1701198
-Ian-
Replies (32)
swez on 09/1/2006 18:19:24
That's a pretty wild setup Ian. Interesting array of speakers, subs and amps in a small SUV setup and those horns... must be pretty loud too huh? It looks like the upper dash has a large array of mid/highs too?
I take it pic #1 is you and your girl? Nice couple... looks like a good match if she does not mind this wild hobby.
Enjoy your experiments,
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/1/2006 19:04:26
hahaha! no, not my girlfriend. Just the only one around who wanted to travel to another island for the car show. I like my girls petite...
Yea, loud would be an understatement. It's basically a night club on wheels.
The dash speakers are in a custom enclosure i built out of expanding foam, shaved down, and then covered with black construction paper and grill cloth.
An experiment is definitely a good way to describe it. Every year around car show time, I never know what I'm gonna end up with in my car.
-Ian-
cybersailor420 on 09/1/2006 19:06:03
by the way, I didn't know if you noticed, but some of the pictures have captions to describe everything.
wtmke1 on 09/1/2006 19:12:23
yea thats a cool setup. and the chick is hott too
swez on 09/2/2006 12:05:47
Yes, I read the captions on some and after looking very close at the install, give you an A for creativity and cramming as much as possible into a small format SUV. LOL That's like 20 pounds of coconuts in a 5 pound bag... hehe
Swez
ttocs on 09/3/2006 14:04:24
How many speakers are in that car? Any idea what kind of DB numbers you are making?
my only concern was if the boxes were mounted down?? If not then you better be prayin ya don't have a wreck.....
cybersailor420 on 09/3/2006 22:29:08
Swez - hilarious comments about the girl. Definitely had me crackin up! And thanx for the kudos on being able to put an abusrd (some may say unnecessary) amount of speakers in my car.
Scott - Um, a lot! As far as DB numbers, I hit 151.0 decibels. I know it doesn't sound like much by state-side standards, but I was the first one to ever break 150 in the virgin islands. I am only running a stock alternator and had 2 750 CCA Optima Yellowtop batteries. No car down here is setup purely for spl, so we just take our day to day drivers in and see what happens.
and yes, i mounted all the boxes to the car and to each other. too many hills and bumps here to not do it.
The only thing left in the car now is the 15's in the back and the speakers on each door. My back seat fits perfectly with the box in the back. I'll put pictures up when I get everything the way i want it, including building a cover for the amps in the back.
Victor on 09/4/2006 02:33:52
151 seems good number, but the same can be achieved with a single woofer in a well designed enclosure and a single powerful amp..
if one spends on sound damping and proper electrical upgrades instead of soo many subs and amp, it wud be a much much better setup .
tho its pretty appreciable that you could put in soo many subs and amp in such a cramp space..
Victor...
swez on 09/4/2006 11:25:04
Indeed, I'd have to agree w/ Vic on this one. A very well planned out system with minimal sub woofers and plenty of sound dampening, could do better SPL #'s here and sound better too.
See, SPL is actually a measure of pressure that a sonic wave can generate in a confined space. Sound dampening and other air leak sealing methods help to maintain that air pressure inside a vessle. (our vehicle) The less sonic pressure that leaks out, the higher the SPL numbers we can achieve. Heck, that pair of MTX subs with a strong amp could probably get the job done alone. Or, those 15's can be your crash test subjects too.
Also, where do they place the SPL transducer during an SPL test? Usually at the dash I believe??? Well, proximity of the mike to measured speakers also matters. At the cone, we have higher SPL numbers. As we move away from the cone, SPL decreases at a predictable roll-off rate too. The closer the speakers are positioned to the transducer, the higher the SPL #'s will be. (A one meter distance, [~39"] is the test parameter for most speaker testing plots.
A last thought here... is there a specific criteria of frequency range the SPL is measured at? Deep lows, (below 40 Hz.) take a lot of energy to reproduce. As we go higher in frequency, less energy is needed to get the same SPL #. (Speaker efficiencies go up with frequecy) If we couple that with vehicle resonances, (55-70 Hz.) we get maximum SPL #'s with minimal effort from the subs. This is where a special tuning port can be employed and only used for SPL tests and Comps only.
Here, a special box design can be made with swappable port modules. For everyday driving, a port that is tuned to say 35 Hz., is used. When you wish to do SPL tests and Comps, remove these ports, and install a module that drops right in. This port system is tuned to the vehicle resonance frequency. Now, you have a nice Daily Driver system and one for Comps only. Here, we only use 1 enclosure, dual subs and adjust the port tuning function, based on application. (A lot easier than lugging a bunch of heavy gear in and out huh?
Does this sound interesting to you Ian? This is a "Brain vs Brawn" approach. Since you are not 6'4" and 250 pounds, won't need 2 men and a boy to lug all that heavy gear in and out. It won't wear you out and leaves some room in the back for camping out under the stars with your petite g/f. (Or a larger boned one for that matter... hehe)
Swez
PS Those 15's you have at the top, what are they and how much RMS power can they take? Do you know the port tuning frequency of them?
All I am pointing out, is that you can get the same or better SPL numbers with far less hardware, if you allow acoustical physics to do the work, rather than brute force of many large cones. With all the extra cones going, cancellations and null nodes have to be hurting your overall numbers here. A less is more approach takes more mental work to design and test it out. But moving all that gear in and out has got to be a major PITA!!! "Ohhh.... my achin' back!" COFFEE
Victor on 09/4/2006 15:29:40
I dunno if you planning to upgrade your system .. but if I was you i would sell all the gear u have right now and Get 1 or 2 powerful subs with a higher X-max and decent sensitivity rating and a solid stable amp.
A well designed ported or EBS enclosure, lots of sound damping and a 200amp + alternator with the Big 3 done, the yellow top batts u already have so wouldnt need to change them.
This kinda setup can easily get you to mid 150's.
This way It would save a lot of energy doing the in-outs with those huge boxes everytime you compete. and also you can have a high SPL vehicle in everyday ride too + lots of usable space.
This is just a suggestion, next time you think of changing your system this is definitely the right approach.IDEA
Victor...
MrBrownstone on 09/4/2006 15:35:52
I would spend most of my time on harnessing the acoustics of the vehicle and the enclosure design. You may go through 30 enclosures to get from 151 to 157..but hey! They don't call it an obsession for nothing.
It appears that you are experiencin a lot of cancellation just from the design. You would be better served if you had a wall--separating the front seats from the back of the vehicle...and all woofers on the same plane. Just 2 woofers, and 1 amp, and you'll likely see the same numbers.
With your system, you may want to first study the vehicle. Once you find out the most common and strongest resonances (say 48 to 60 Hz) you can design your enclosure ports around those resonances and maximize your performance. From there, it's about maximizing the efficiency of the woofer.
Woofer...even if the mfr says 2 cuft and specific length ports, you can stretch out efficiency, capacity, etc, but balooning the enclosure and experimenting with ports. 5 years ago (God! has it been that long?) we ran enclosures just slightly below Vas (basically free air) with slotted ports ranging from 45Hz to 70Hz.
More later..
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 13:13:34
Hey guys. Great comments by all, and I agree with all of you 100%. I have been kind of hesitant to redo my system, since I just dealt with all that crap for the car shows, however I just started having issues again with noise through my speakers. I have been using a portable cd player to run my system for the last week, and it has been working fine. Just yesterday I started having problems again. I get a lot of noise when my cd player is plugged in to the charger and the amplifiers. When I unplug my car charger, most of the noise goes away, but there is still a constant buzzing noise (not engine noise). I tried plugging it directly into the amps, and I still get the noise (even on the bass amp). So I have no idea what this could be. I may try using my laptop as another external audio source and see if that works. But other wise, I have absolutely no idea how all these speakers could be getting noise, unless maybe a speaker wire is grounding somewhere... Does this sound like a possible cause?
Anyways, point being that I think I am gonna rip out all my speaker and RCA wires, sell my cd player (if I can get it fixed) and possibly the new Soundstream amps I got (because I am not sure if they are giving me any of these problems I am having). Basically, the only things I really want to keep are:
(1) 2 Kicker SX650.1 bass amps (since I will not be able to sell them for what they're worth, and I really like them)
(2) Audiocontrol Epic160
(3) mid/high speakers and tweeters
I currently have two 15" Kicker L7's in a 3.5 cu. ft. box per sub, tuned to 38 hz. I have had these for a while and really like them, but am willing to sell them if you guys can think of some subs that can put out more sound (higher xmax presumably) for about the same price. I could probably sell these for $500-$600 down here, so I would be looking for some replacement subs that are close to that budget. I have a special place in my heart for 15s, so I prefer to stick to that. It would also be nice if the new subs could work with the two Kicker amps I currently have.
I think two of my first purchases would be a high output alternator from Ohio Generators (165-180 max, 85-90 at idle), which is almost $600. I would also like to get my hands on an AudioControl DQXS, but that's more of a wish list item.
If you guys wanna start throwin out ideas about subs and enclosures, and possibly new sub amps if you think i should/need to ditch the ones I have, that would be awesome. Maybe this can be a good exercise for other SPL heads out there.
Thanx alot guys. Looking forward to some really awesome ideas.
-Ian-
P.S. Swez, the meters are normally placed by the passengers feet. However, in the last competition they used what they call a "reality spl test," which places the meter on the driver's seat, about where your ears would be... I got almost 5 decibels lower on this meter than on the previous one.
swez on 09/7/2006 16:06:00
Ian,
Thanks for clarifying where the SPL mike is positioned in your drags.
I believe there are some simple reasons for the noise problems mentioned. However, they may not be easy to track down.
1. The charger mentioned, some have very cheap circuits and do induce noise when in use. I have noticed this in one of my stup cell phone chargers. When I use it in the car... lots of weird noises. When I unplug it, all noises go away. Hense, a cheap charger that is very noisy.
2. Chances are good that your speakers and amps are fine if amp are well grounded and so are the RCA's and HU. With all that SPL, it is possible to loosen grounds and even damage HU/CD players. This may be the root cause of problems noted.
3. It would be a good idea to test all amps on a clean power supply and known good signal source like your portable CD or laptop as players. The keys here, are a quiet power source like a few car BATs in parallel and perhaps a charger on them to keep them at peak output. If you find there is noise, diconnect the charger and see if that noise goes away. (Test using full range music and speakers for best results)
4. If all amps test good and clean, your noise is upstream in the HU, Epic or RCA's. Here, you've eliminated the amps as a source of noise now. So, GIGO is likely the case.
5. As for your bass engine, do keep your Kicker amps and subs for now. They are proven winners and if you mount the sub boxes to the floor of your Vatara, you'll get some nice bass transfer effect as well. Yes, there are more efficient subs out there to choose from. But for now, optimization of what you have in hand, is always a good strategy.
6. As for mid/highs speakers and amps... keep it simple, but make it strong. The more simplified you can do all these connections, the less problems have to be chased down later.
7. Consider using a common grounding system (Ground Distribution block) for everything audio in this install. That means amps, HU, Epic and what have you. A common grounding point will eliminate most/all ground loop issues.
Could you be very specific on the noise you are getting now? Some noises are easy to track down the source. Here are a few common ones:
a. Constant low frequency humming is often a loose RCA ground or poorly grounded RCA's to amps and source unit.
b. Engine whine, spark ticks and changes in pitch of noise are a sign of ground loops. (Need all audio gear at the same ground potential)
c. A failing ALT can also produce noises. When brushes are worn, stator or a few blown diodes are present, output power will drop and some noise may be added as well. (This is a bit more challenging to track down)
Finally, it's very easy to want to throw the "baby out w/ the bath water" when we put so much effort into a project and then "snigglets hit the wall" and drive us crazy. When that happens, it's best to just walk away from it, shut everything down and take a mental vacation until sanity returns.
It's a known fact that when we get frustrated or angry, we lose a lot of problem solving faculties in the brain for a time. Here, it's just best to walk away, divert attention to something benign or pleasing until we calm down. (Go fishing, scuba diving, relax at the beach... whatever)Any wise person knows when it's time to quit banging away at a problem...give it a rest and come back with the mind fresh and well rested.
Make sense bro?
Swez
Victor on 09/7/2006 18:35:57
been working a lot with CV these days... and was pretty impressed with the way this sub performs, with about 3" one way excursion, this sub can move some serious air...
http://cerwinvega.com/products/mobileaudio/strokerpro/strokerprogroups.html
http://cerwinvega.com/products/pdf/mobile/strokerpromanual.pdf
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 18:57:46
hey guys. I will come back to everything else in my next post. I just wanted to make a quick note before dinner about my noise issue. Before trying another source in my car, I plugged my portable dvd/cd player into my home stereo and found that I'm getting the same noise as in my car?!?! So apparently something in my car has damaged the outputs on my pioneer cd player and my portable dvd/cd player... What the heck could cause this? I'm afraid to connect anything else to my car until I can be 100% sure I've traced down what is doing this.
My only thought is that the most recent thing I've added to this system is my speakers on the rear doors. Maybe one of the speaker wires is shorting out... but even if it was, would it cause this to happen?
Totally confused...
swez on 09/7/2006 23:00:58
If the speakers added were amped off an outboard amp, not likely to be an issue.
It does sound like you are having some severe ground loop problems in the car. If the players are not grounded properly to the rest of your gear, the players will try to find grounds from the RCA's or antenna feeds. (NOT GOOD!!!) This causes an imbalance to the player and can damage preamp circuits in them... thus you get noise. If these are expensive players, (DVD) good chance it's a trip to the repair shop for some board module swaps. (That will take time and you'll be w/o them for a while unless you have swap type warranty plan)
It all points back to what I mentioned earlier... a step by step testing of each amp in the system with a known good player source. As long as all amps check out, you passed that test. The next step is going back through all your signal lines form a known good source unit.
FYI: Most HU's can deliver 2.0 - 4.0 volts of RCA voltage to a given amp input. If you split these to driver mutiple amps, that may be enough to damage the HU preamp that supplies RCA voltage due to impedence mismatch problems. Here, a multi-channel output Line Driver can resolve some of that. There again, grounding all preamps and such in the audio signal chain are very important.
Can you give a detailed accounting of how each amp was wired from your HU to all amps and Epic 160? That may help a lot in diagnosing what's going on now and how to correct it with your next iteration.
Swez
PS I see the Epic 160 is only 2 inputs and 2 outputs. This is fine for sub amps. However, if you are using several 4 channel amps to power mid/highs and splitting them off the HU RCA's w/o a line driver, this could be why your HU failed. It may not support extra channels unless each amp has pass through preamps. Comments???
cybersailor420 on 09/7/2006 23:47:29
Hey Swez. So, I think you may have found the problem. First, quick overview of how RCA's were run when my pioneer cd player got messed up:
Subs: cd player sub out => Epic160 => 2 Kicker SX650.1 (strapped)
Tweeters: cd player front L/R => channels 3/4 on one amp
Mids: cd player rear L/R => split between 2 other 4 channel amps and channels 1/2 on previous amp.
so basically for the mids, I split one set of outputs to run 5 pairs of channels... this is probably the problem you were looking for. I didn't know this could damage the outputs on a cd player. I never turned the cd player volume above 3/4, but I did have my gains set relatively high to make up for the weak signal after splitting it so much.
I'm going to try to send my portable dvd/cd player back under warranty, since I just got it. As far as my Pioneer cd player, I'm wondering if it will be worth it to get it fixed. Is this an expensive fix?
I'll wait for your reply before going further on this.
cybersailor420 on 09/8/2006 00:30:45
I'll use this post to get back to some of your questions and suggestions about the bass part of my system.
First off, parameters for my 15" Kicker L7s:
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2006/2006%20L7%20Sub%20b01%20WEB.pdf
My current box (per sub) is 3.5 cubic feet, tuned to approximately 38 hertz. I did have a box that was 5 cubic feet per sub and tuned to approximately 33 hertz, but the back rests for the rear seat wouldn't fit with it. Also, I didn't notice any change in SPL numbers with the smaller box. If anything, I just have more responsive bass.
As far as the resonance of the vehicle, I don't know how to accurately measure this (and am sure I don't have the equipment to do so). However, I have found that using test tones between 48 and 51 hertz net the highest SPL numbers. I spent a while testing and using my Epic160 as a reference.
I was definitely getting cancellation between the two pairs of subs. They were approximately 90 degrees out of phase. However, my amps only had phase adjusments for 0 and 180. But I did get 5 more decibels than I was getting with just the 2 15s, so I decided to leave the 12s in just for the show. I won't be putting them in again though, so that's not an issue worth worrying about.
Victor, those are some awesome subs you mentioned. They may be a little over the top and a little out of my price range though. Cerwin Vega was my first love in car audio, so it's good to see they've still got it. If I were designing a purely SPL, non-daily driver, these would be an excellent option. The other issue with these would be finding a way to ship them to the Virgin Islands, since each one w/ shipping box weighs 100lbs. I don't think I can ship any package more than 70 lbs down here. I'd have to research that though...
I do have the big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. And yes, I do have one Optima Yellow top 750 CCA up front, and one sitting in my room. I don't really have room to put this in the back, unless I scrap my idea of keeping a low profile look (the sub box sits behind the rear seats and the top is level with the back rests. The amps are mounted on the back of the box facing the rear door). However, I may have room on the opposite wheel well under the hood. I think I can handle building a custom battery mount. Then I assume I just wire them up (battery isolator or no?). Would it matter which battery I run the power from, or does it only matter that everything is connected in one form or another (I know it would matter if I used an isolator).
That's it for now. I think I've answered all your questions and info requests...
swez on 09/8/2006 20:32:07
Think we found your problem Ian.
"Subs: cd player sub out => Epic160 => 2 Kicker SX650.1 (strapped)"
This is correct and no strain on the HU/Source player.
"Tweeters: cd player front L/R => channels 3/4 on one amp"
This too is good.
"Mids: cd player rear L/R => split between 2 other 4 channel amps and channels 1/2 on previous amp."
This is the one that bites. This has 5 pairs of RCA's to feed your amp channels and probably caused the problems noted on your HU and other players.
See, preamp RCA's typically see amp input loads between 10-20K Ohms per channel. However, in a 5 way split, the load the preamp sees, is ~1/5th it's normal operational load impedence range. That's really hard on a HU that is designed to match an amp or two at most.
Analogy: An amp is spec'd at a given output wattage level into a 2-4 ohm load. However, if we ran several speakers in parallel to that amp, and the amp sees a net 0.5 ohms, somethings got to give right?
Amps have protection circuits to prevent damage due to ultra-low ohmic loads and high current draw. (Preamps often do not) So, how do we work around such complex installs?
Line Drivers, EQ/LD and Active Crossover Networks have fixed inputs for matching HU preamp impedence needs. They also have multiple pairs of output preamp channels to drive amps with adequate signal voltages. Now, each amp gets enough Line level signal voltage and all the preamps are happy too.
The other option we can employ, is to use an amp that has outputs to feed other amps with a separate line level preamp circuits. This is much better than the "Y" splitter option used in your present install. Each amp gets a dedicated preamp voltage input that is impedence matched to the next amp in the chain. The "Y" splitter method is OK for 2 amp channels. But, when it must feed 5 amp channels, something had to give... your Source Unit preamps went kaput.
Got all that?
Swez
swez on 09/8/2006 21:46:38
QUOTE: "I do have the big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. And yes, I do have one Optima Yellow top 750 CCA up front, and one sitting in my room. I don't really have room to put this in the back, unless I scrap my idea of keeping a low profile look (the sub box sits behind the rear seats and the top is level with the back rests. The amps are mounted on the back of the box facing the rear door). However, I may have room on the opposite wheel well under the hood. I think I can handle building a custom battery mount. Then I assume I just wire them up (battery isolator or no?). Would it matter which battery I run the power from, or does it only matter that everything is connected in one form or another (I know it would matter if I used an isolator)."
In some cases, your ALT can manage dual "MATCHED" batteries w/o an isolator. In this case, it really depends on the output rating of your present ALT and what kind of loads the amps put on the system, as a daily driver.
Isolators are useful when we encounter unbalanced loads to each BAT. The isolator will moitor charge levels of each BAT and when one BAT drops below charging threshold, the ISO allocates all charging power to top it off again.
In this case, balanacing the load each BAT has would be most beneficial. The starter BAT comes into play, only when you start the engine. Once the engine is running, the ALT charges that BAT and supplies all (Voltage x Current = Watts) = power needed by the entire system.
The main BAT will assist, (provide power) only when the ALT is maxed out and system needs are greater than the ALT can supply. Here, is where things get dicey. Watch your voltage minder on the Epic 160. When voltage drops below 12.5 volts, (Or lower) and remains constant, your BAT is being tapped for additional power. as the ALT can no longer keep up.
If you added a 2nd BAT to the system, now there is more reserve power available to your amplifiers and car devices. However, this too can become overtaxed in time and needs to be charged up again as well. Here, your Voltage minder will drop below 12.5 volts and if it goes below ~10.5 volts, the computer will shut off the engine. Got all that?
Now, you have an advantage here with dual BATs. (More reserve current available) But when the Voltage minder dips below 12.5 volts, shut off the audio system and let the ALT charge up both BATs again. (Just watch your Epic display until you see a steady 13.5 volts again) Now, you can turn on your audio gear again.
If using an ISOlator, use the diode type version. It takes less power when in use. Also, consider balancing your amplifiers off each BAT if possible. The sub amps on one BAT and your full range amps off the other would be a good option. Yes, that means running dual power feed lines and D-blocks too. But a well balanced load to each BAT will make it easier on your ALT and such as well.
Hope that helps,
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 13:16:20
Thanx again for the replies Swez.
I did actually use the amp outputs on my two bigger 4 channel amps. I guess I should just tell you about my current setup now, since that is what messed up the audio output on my portable dvd/cd player.
I have one set of RCAs that goes back to one of my sub amps (which is strapped with the other). I used the RCA output on this amp and split it to run channels 1/2 on my two 4 channel amps. I then used the output from those channels to run channels 3/4 on the respective amps.
Were you saying that using these outputs restores the signal strength and ohmic load? Do they act as a simple line driver?
Well, I guess regardless of all that, I will be getting a line driver (hopefully line driver, crossover combo) before I put in a new head unit. I will also be running all new RCA cords, and going over all my speaker wire runs to make sure there are no issues with the wires. I am also going to run some 8 gauge ground from my grounding place in the back up to the point were my head unit is grounded. I may even run one back from the battery to this spot as well, thus hopefully eliminating any chance of a ground loop.
BATTERY:
I was running through the different scenarios in my head, and the only reason I see for running an isolator would be if I want to run my stereo off the second battery and have a way of preventing the main battery from dying if playing the stereo while the car is off. Other than that, if I wire them together with no isolator, current should travel to the battery more in need on its own, right? I can't remember what this law is called, but I know it's in my notebooks somewhere.... haha
I also like your idea of splitting the amp loads between batteries. And I guess it never hurts to have extra current-carrying wire going to your amps (running 2 power wires).
swez on 09/10/2006 17:01:07
QUOTE" "Were you saying that using these outputs restores the signal strength and ohmic load? Do they act as a simple line driver?"
Most newer amps have pass through RCA's to allow one to daisy chain several amps together. However, do they also have preamps to allow adequate voltage or just parallel taps from the main inputs? (I cannot say for sure) If these are non-preamped outs, they are no better than "Y" patch cables and RCA signal voltage is reduced as we patch from one amp to another. That's why LD's and multi-output processors work so much better.
BATTERIES:
Yes, in this case, dual BAT's would be a good option. One can be for dedicated use to support your bass engine, (Current buffer like a huge CAP, only better) while the stock BAT supports your full range amps. Here, the ISO helps as it won't allow one BAT to borrow/scavenge current from the other. Hense the term... Battery Isolator.
May I suggest a careful review of all the details for your new install and using a multi-output LD/EQ or LD/X-over in the future. This should eliminate most problems to date and protect your new HU as well/
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 18:04:48
No worries Swez, I will definitely be purchasing a line driver, at the least. Hopefuly I can find one combined with a crossover that will suit my needs, as mentioned in my other post.
As far as the batteries... say I do the setup you mentioned, and put an isolator between the batteries. when the bass hits and starts to drain that battery, won't the isolator start sending current from the main battery to the other battery anyways?
swez on 09/10/2006 18:27:40
QUOTE: As far as the batteries... say I do the setup you mentioned, and put an isolator between the batteries. when the bass hits and starts to drain that battery, won't the isolator start sending current from the main battery to the other battery anyways?"
No, the ISO will monitor power in each BAT separately. If the sub BAT goes below ISO thresholds, the ALT will only charge the BAT that is taking the drops. ISO's monitor both BATs, but only charge the BAT that drops below the ISO's pre-determined "feed me" set points.
The ISO is connected right off the ALT output lug. It then splits outputs to each BAT. It monitors BAT levels and only charges the one in need and leaves the other one as is. It will also switch from Charging BAT Sub to BAT Car, once the sub BAT is back up to snuff. (Or visa-versa) The ISO will not allow one BAT to scavange or swap power based on loads to either BAT. That's why this is a good option for the system you have been working on. That's what is meant by "dedicated" power sources.
Got all that Ian?
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/10/2006 18:56:38
huh... i may have a different isolator than you are thinking of:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_5287.html
It has a grounding post, turn- on post, and power in and power out posts. I don't see a way to run this between the alternator and the two seperate batteries... Is this the right isolator for the application you're speaking of?
swez on 09/11/2006 06:42:47
Yes, this is the relay/solinoid version and it should work out fine. Here, the Pac-200 senses BAT storage capacity, and sends power as needed to the AUX BAT.
The main BAT is directly coupled to the ALT and will only draw charging current as needed, to feed all car devices and any other loads, (Amplifiers) that may be on the main BAT.
The only problem with the Pac-200, it does not have dual sensing/charging circuits. Here, if the main BAT is depleated and so is the AUX BAT, the ALT will have to charge both BAT's and power all loads the car demands.
In this case, it might be good to monitor both BAT's for charging status and even ALT output. The Epic 160 can be powered off the PAC-200 as a monitor for the AUX line. Your cigarette lighter can be used as a port to monitor voltage and current off the ALT and main BAT system.
What is the maximum current output of your present ALT?
Swez
cybersailor420 on 09/11/2006 15:10:08
I believe my current ALT output is 80 amps... There is a 100 amp factory-installed fuse between the ALT and BAT, but I'm 99.9% sure I read somewhere that it only puts out 80 amps.
It is not hard for me to sell car audio parts down here, so if I should invest in a dual sensing/charging isolator, that is definitely a possibility. I could then just sell the one I have.
I guess that clarifies that issue. I will probably wait to do this setup until after I get a HO alternator, as I have been meaning to get one forever, and just never seem to save up quite enough money...
lessismorespl on 09/11/2006 16:56:56
Your system is definately an interesting one. With your available cabin space, I'm quite surprised you hit 150+. There has to be some serious cancellation. Looking at your system, I think you could hit much higher numbers by using 2 MTX 9500's(I have seen 2 of these hit high 150's) along with the 2 Kicker Solo Barics(I have seen 2 of these hit close to 160), so if you ran just those 4 subs in a properly made enclosure(I will talk of later) you could easily have a mid 160 to high 160 SUV.
Also, I would definately try to find some MDF to build your enclosures b/c plywood/ply board has way too much flex, and is impossible to seal.... of course you could line the insides of enclosures w/ spray-on bedliner or liquid sound dampening and layer the outside w/ fiberglass. You seem to have the correct airspace and the ports seem to be well in place, however the material used in these enclosures does not work well, especially w/ higher end subs, which you are using. Just some suggestions.
Nice for DIY system.
less
swez on 09/11/2006 17:36:03
Ahhhh, now we're getting some real brass on the the old shifter!
Ian, listen to this fellow Less... he's got more SPL experience under his belt then most guys I have ever come across. (No, am not passing gas or just being nice) So, if he makes a comment, hang on and run with it. Less has been here on and off for ~2 years. When he makes his case, most of us listen and learn something too. He's no upstart and I hold this fellow in high regard.
Swez
PS Welcome back Less! Good to see ya posting again.
cybersailor420 on 09/11/2006 19:58:29
Glad to see someone else chiming in. I have been on this website for probably 3 years now, and trust all of your input.
There are many reasons that I am not hitting the SPL numbers I should:
lack of power
no sound damping
no panel reinforcement
lack of funds/knowledge for box experimentation
definitely cancelation when running those 4 subs
I'm sure you guys can think of more. Since I don't know what's brewin in your mind right now Less, let me just clarify that in the future I will only be using those 2 15's; the 12's were a temporary "just for the hell of it" addition.
I agree that I should be hitting much bigger numbers, and am not sure if it is mainly one of the reasons above, or all them (I assume all, as every little bit counts).
My only reason for using plywood is that lumber yards are not allowed to carry MDF down here, b/c termites will get to it in no time. The last box I made for my subs was MDF, b/c I place a huge order from Florida for a bunch of people down here that I was building boxes for. However, I car shop on a near by island did just start selling it, so any future boxes I make will be MDF.
As usual, I am open to any and all ideas. This is the first time I've been home long enough to really do any work on my car, so I have plenty of time to take it slow, do it right, and save up for whatever it is I really need.
-Ian-
PS. Swez, I haven't gotten around to answering the other post yet, but I just wanted to let you know I did read it. I appreciate all the time you put in, and would be more than happy to help you on the way towards your goal (being a fisher myself). I don't know what I can afford, but let me know what you think is reasonable. I will get back to that post soon.
lessismorespl on 09/11/2006 20:52:05
I failed to notice you are from the Virgin Islands. I know how hard it is to aquire MDF in some of those regions. There are ways around it. Your enclosures appear to be well built, considering the material used. If you can get some spray-on bedliner, or have access to some liquid sound dampening....or even better...does anyplace there do spray -on liners? Do the inside of the enclosure...use some silicone caulk to seal all the seams first.....then give it 2-4 coats of bedliner or liquid sound dampening. Then for the outside of the enclosure, lay some mat, or you could use some heavy flannel material and lay a couple coats of fiberglass(the kind they use to repair boats works just fine), if you are concerned about how it would look, sand it good and buy some good spray paint to give it a more cosmetic look.
The work you did w/ your mids and highs is really good. I like your ideas w/ all the mids/highs.....reflection is very important for the highs, not so much for the mids. You have plenty of room to run both the 15's and the 12's, take the horns out and build a wall w/ seperate air space for each set, and of course ported/vented. As for power, it seems you are running plenty of power, and the extra Yellow Top helps lower resistence. Maybe do a Big 3 Upgrade and add another Yellow Top under the hood, or even a Red Top, this will help your overall voltage and help prevent any irregualr peaks.
As for your wiring, I say this to many people......"who cares how it looks"
If you look at many of the cars in dB Drag comp. they are not all that pretty. To me, it is all about how it sounds, be it SQ, SQL, or str8 SPL.
In my experiences, the loudest systems are not works of art...only in how they sound.
Good luck on your experiments w/ your system....that is how you learn and get better at it....we all started somewhere and we have all had our successes and failures...if some-one tells you they never had a failed system or built a bafd system...then they do not know sound systems...that is how we learn...experiments and learning from our previous mistakes.
You are definately on the right track.
less
Nice 2 be back Swez.......you know I can never stay away too long.
less
cybersailor420 on 09/17/2006 22:54:42
Hey Less,
Thanx for the suggestions. I do already have my Big 3 done w/ 1/0 awg. The reason I will not be putting the 12's back in is that they do not belong to me, and I am selling them soon for my friend.
My goal now is to have my car as a funtional, 4 passenger, daily driver. The box for the 2 15's sits in the back flush mounted along the back of the seats and level with top of the seats (back seats). The amps are still mounted on the back of the box. This way, all you see is the top of the box with the two port openings.
The only other speakers I will have in are the mounts on each door.
I like your idea of designing a box in which I can change the port lengths (and thus the tuning frequency) for SPL competitions or for a daily driver. However, I'm not sure if I can accomplish this setup to its full potential while still remaining within my size constraints. I spent a while designing and building the box I have in there now, which utilizes pretty much all of the space in the back from the top of the back seats to the floor, and side to side. You can even see where I designed the box to be wider above the wheel wells.
What is the average range of port tuning frequencies for SPL setups? I know that with the last setup I had, my vehicle was reaching max SPL at about 48-51 hz., with each of my 2 15's in a 5 cu.ft. box tuned to about 33.8 hz. I know that is low for true SPL setups, but that is what the kicker tech helped me design for a daily driver/spl setup.
I would love to hear all that you have to say about this, as I have little experience with real SPL setups.
Thanx again.
-Ian-
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