Hello guys, I need some expert opinions on an issue regarding amplifier common grounds and the use of an Audio Control DQS sound processor.
I would like to incorporate an Audio Control DQS sound processor EQ into a system using a JL 1000/1, and 2ea 300/2. After speaking to a person at Audio Control I was able to determine the DQS will suite my EQ needs and support the amps noted with enough input and output channels.
The gentleman from Audio Control stressed the most important aspect of set up was a common grounding point for all equipment used in a given system. I am very confused because I have read in several reliable sources that amps should ALWAYS be grounded separately. Car Stereo Cookbook 2nd edition states " multiple amplifiers must be grounded separately. This prevents the high currents drawn by an amp from modulating the ground voltage of any of the other components". There is also an increased potential for ground loop, noise issues and amp current draw resistance when using the same grounding point. All your expert advice and opinions are greatly appreciated in this matter. Thank You
Demetrios
Replies (15)
ttocs on 07/31/2006 18:55:32
that opinion will vary depending on the vehicle and the equipment from what I have seen. I have built MANY systems using both techniques and rarely had any noise problems.
I you were to ask me how I would personally do it, I would say get power and ground for everything together in one place. I would run power and ground wires to where the amps are to get power for my deck, along with the remote turn on. You can get a distrobution block that has an extra output for your deck, and ground the deck to where the ground distrobution block is as well. It seems alot simpler if you have EVERYTHING getting its signal from the same place personally....
swez on 07/31/2006 19:09:14
100% agreement with ttocs. The best way to avoid Ground Loops, are to have ALL audio components grounded to the same reference point.
When using heavy current power supplies like big amplifiers, just use a large stud bolt such as a seat belt bolt, (bare metal and paint free) connected to a heavy gage line wire and all Amps, EQ, Processors and HU, are now grounded to a Disty Block which is also grounded to the seat belt bolt. It won't get much better than that. USFLAG
QUOTE: "I have read in several reliable sources that amps should ALWAYS be grounded separately. Car Stereo Cookbook 2nd edition states " multiple amplifiers must be grounded separately. This prevents the high currents drawn by an amp from modulating the ground voltage of any of the other components".
That one seems to be open to various interpretations. Frankly, am not sure "EXACTLY" what they actually mean by that statement??? I can see not tying the dash, ECM, BCM, ABS, Air Bags or other complex car components on that same ground point for that purpose. But the rest of that statement seems a bit vague w/o some additional references. Got any more quotes that they use to flesh out their point of concerns?
Swez
demetman on 07/31/2006 19:33:04
I learn something new every visit here. ttocs just to be 100% clear on the HU ground technique, you are reccomending I run a ground wire from my HU to the trunk (where all equipment will be mounted) and ground with all amps and DQS on the same bolt? I just wanted to be clear as I take notes for future reference. Thanks for the responce and clarification guys.
Demetrios
Victor on 07/31/2006 22:01:32
I would not like to take that long a route to ground my HU, HU can be grounded with the factory harness itself, or somewhere near by, no need to pull it all the way to the trunk.
I would also prefer for precautionary reasons, grounding the HU chassis as well as the RCA outs.
Victor...
swez on 08/1/2006 07:53:41
I have found that grounding the HU properly to metal parts in the dash are generally hood enough. This applies if that metal is mechanically & electrically connected to a known good ground. (Ie: Firewall, floor pan or a ground wire that doesn not connect to your dash instruments) Avoid using the harness ground lines as they often tap into instrument panel functions. It's good enough for factory HU systems, but not always adequate for high power Aftermarket HU's.
Swez
demetman on 08/1/2006 09:21:11
I have always grounded HU to firewall or floorpan and never encountered noise issues. It only makes sence to ground any audio component as close as possible to it's mounting position. I'll stick to the basics here. Thanks
ttocs on 08/1/2006 20:37:06
I am in the process of putting in 2 systems in my own vehicles, that will probably never be done......... If/when I do complete them I will run a power wire as well as a gound with my remote turn on to the trunk. You are already running wires anyway, adding 2 more to the run will not make it any harder but will then allow ALL of the audio componants to get power and ground from the same place. Is this necessary, well no it isn't. It does how ever fit my motto of "do it right, do it once"........
demetman on 08/2/2006 00:55:31
Thanks for your input ttocs. It's educational to hear a few professional installer's opinions on this matter. I do now understand the benifits of grounding all audio components to a common good ground to recieve a signal and potentially eliminate noise issues. I also like to do things right the first time, hence all the questions and concerns I have.
swez on 08/2/2006 08:13:52
Ditto! Do it once... do it right the first time around.
FYI: Have done several full installs for others this year. Have never had ground loop noises and grounded the HU to metal brackets deep in the dash that were known good grounds. (Measured them with an ohmeter to be certain)
Did have one overhaul job for a local kid too. He had terrrible noise problems in his sub feeds and no full range off the HU's amps. Turned out he really did a hack install on the HU. He used a harness ground and just taped his speaker wires, (no crimps or soldering here) to the factory wiring.
That was bad enough... but the end problems were a result of poor grounding, improper amp gain settings for his sub and connectivity problems in the kick panel connectors that fed his aftermarket speakers. I wound up installing new speaker lines from the HU harness to the kick panel connectors. That did the trick.
Funny thing though...(a real learning experience here) The kid was like 19-20 years old, had a 1990 Jeep Cherokee and he came to CK for help. I invited him out to my place to have a look and see what needed to be done. He would have never figured it out on his own accord.
(Begin Rant)
Well, After 4 hours of effort and everything corrected, that little selfish turd from a Bass, left w/o sending any payment back for services rendered. He lived in the high rent district in East Detroit. (St. Clare Shores) So, $$ was not the problem... it was a character flaw. He never returned to CK after that nor returned my e-mails.
Go figure huh?
Swez
PS I did a look up from Dec - Feb 2005-06. Looks like he deleted all his postings from that whole affair. (Covered all his tracks huh?) I guess some people aren't worth the C-4 to blow them to Hell. Boy, did I learn something in this whole mis-adventure. (Should have held his keys until he paid on the spot huh?) Living and learning... some folks are just not worth their salt. (End Rant)
ttocs on 08/2/2006 11:52:29
"Thanks for your input ttocs. It's educational to hear a few professional installer's opinions on this matter. I do now understand the benifits of grounding all audio components to a common good ground to recieve a signal and potentially eliminate noise issues. I also like to do things right the first time, hence all the questions and concerns I have. "
I am not saying that this is the gospel and that everyone should listen to me. This is my personal preference and that is all.
Swez-I do not understand how people think tape is a connector....
I have done more then my share of free/nearly free installs. At the least I normally try to get a lunch out of it depending on how tough a job it is. It is still just rude to not even offer something as a token for your time....
swez on 08/2/2006 14:40:04
Yeah, tape job was horrible, but it was not the worst part of the job. Running fresh speaker wires down from the HU Spk outs to the kick panels were the worst. It took 4.5 hours to do all this in the early part of January. Go figure huh?
What's funny about all this in the process, some good lessons:
1. Not everyone appreciates talent we may have acquired over time
2. Some folks don't think much about others, just themselves
3. When doing jobs like this, confirm the pay rate in advance
4. Hold the keys to his car until he pays up
But ya know, it was also good experience in actually doing the work. Most of us "know the process and steps" to use. However, it's one thing to know how, but quiet another to do it well.
In all, the last few installs have really made me appreciate the skills, guys like you (ttocs) and UK Installer (and others) have brought to CK over the many years and such. After doing maybe 6-8 installs by now, I have realized that head knowledge is fine. But getting everything to come together with skill, (a few choice mutterings) and having the best results... it's not just skill of the hands. It's also thinking on ones' feet, knowing how to use the tools available and the ability to dig deeper when things are not going well at all.
In short, my hat is off to our Pro Installers at CK. It's a tough and often thankless job. But, when the job is done and we are satisfied with the results, that's worth a lot more to us because we know what it took to get it there. CLAP USFLAG
Ol' Yankee/Dixie know-how is a priceless part of America,
Swez
cplkittle on 08/3/2006 15:41:05
we hired a so called MECP certified installer once.. he lasted 6 days.
He asked me where to ground a single sub amp in the trunk once..
He put a fuse 8" from the amp (not 8" from the battery)
I prefer common sense over a fancy piece of paper.
Yes, Swez.. Yankee/Dixie know how.
As for my 2cents worth on this topic..
Put a 2nd battery in the trunk, ground it well, and ground everything to the second battery and see if anyone has anything to say about that.
swez on 08/3/2006 18:39:36
That's pretty funny Kit!
Frankly, never studied the MECP books or any of the pre-test guides before a number of us took that test for fun. It seems that 5-6 of us took the test within a week and 3-4 failed it with 50% or less correct, 1 missed 70% by 2 points and one guy passed with 80% + scoring.
About 4 of these guys were pretty sharp and knew their fields of expertise very well. The other 2 were rookies. Only 3 guys in this sampling, had done any 12 volt projects before.
The overall read I came away with...
1. One can be book smart, still get good grades but is a blundering idiot when ya hand him a set of hand tools
2. One does not have to gain a great deal of books smarts to handle many tasks with relative ease and picks up new skills fast
3. Most are somewhere in between the above parameters.
Some folks pick up new ideas fast and run with them. Others take a while longer to catch on, but eventually come around. Still others can spend lots of time learning about something, but never get a good grip on the subject matter.
"BTW, would ya mind handing me the left-handed side cutters please?" Sure... what color are they anyway? GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 08/3/2006 18:47:41
It is something that I have always been drawn to as I enjoy it so much. I can say that I do not enjoy it as much when I do it full time for a long period, or even part time when it is 110+ here in the phoenix summer but I always enjoyed it and the extra cash now is great.
I took the mecp almost 10 yrs ago now and was installer certified, but I too have seen some stupid people that had that certification... That can go be said about almost any job though. I now work fulltime in semiconductor manf and there are some really smart people there, and some really dumb ones. I had a trainee for 3 weeks and I could not even start to teach him the basics when he did show up on time, did stay awake, and actually tried. After three weeks I realized that I thought he was an ok guy that I could go out and get a beer with from time to time, but not the kind of guy I wanted to work with. I realized that if he was there I was going to have more work to do so I told them to cut-and-run. I got a new trainee this week and he is already past the point I was at with the other when I canned him.
Also try to send them out for the 6 x 9 hole saw, or the wire stretcher. We had a guy last month diggin in the wood shop for 20 mins before he thought about it and realized..... Truely priceless.
There are two good things about stupid people. They are job security and great entertainment......
Stupid people are everywhere.......... Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding....
demetman on 08/4/2006 01:56:55
It's all in good fun. I send my new dishwashers to my buddies place for buckets of steam, elbow grease, spaghetti stretchers and left handed crepe pans all the time. Some look at me and laugh and others run out the back door like a bat out of hell. It's all about what we can laugh at in the end.
I would like to incorporate an Audio Control DQS sound processor EQ into a system using a JL 1000/1, and 2ea 300/2. After speaking to a person at Audio Control I was able to determine the DQS will suite my EQ needs and support the amps noted with enough input and output channels.
The gentleman from Audio Control stressed the most important aspect of set up was a common grounding point for all equipment used in a given system. I am very confused because I have read in several reliable sources that amps should ALWAYS be grounded separately. Car Stereo Cookbook 2nd edition states " multiple amplifiers must be grounded separately. This prevents the high currents drawn by an amp from modulating the ground voltage of any of the other components". There is also an increased potential for ground loop, noise issues and amp current draw resistance when using the same grounding point. All your expert advice and opinions are greatly appreciated in this matter. Thank You
Demetrios
Replies (15)
ttocs on 07/31/2006 18:55:32
that opinion will vary depending on the vehicle and the equipment from what I have seen. I have built MANY systems using both techniques and rarely had any noise problems.
I you were to ask me how I would personally do it, I would say get power and ground for everything together in one place. I would run power and ground wires to where the amps are to get power for my deck, along with the remote turn on. You can get a distrobution block that has an extra output for your deck, and ground the deck to where the ground distrobution block is as well. It seems alot simpler if you have EVERYTHING getting its signal from the same place personally....
swez on 07/31/2006 19:09:14
100% agreement with ttocs. The best way to avoid Ground Loops, are to have ALL audio components grounded to the same reference point.
When using heavy current power supplies like big amplifiers, just use a large stud bolt such as a seat belt bolt, (bare metal and paint free) connected to a heavy gage line wire and all Amps, EQ, Processors and HU, are now grounded to a Disty Block which is also grounded to the seat belt bolt. It won't get much better than that. USFLAG
QUOTE: "I have read in several reliable sources that amps should ALWAYS be grounded separately. Car Stereo Cookbook 2nd edition states " multiple amplifiers must be grounded separately. This prevents the high currents drawn by an amp from modulating the ground voltage of any of the other components".
That one seems to be open to various interpretations. Frankly, am not sure "EXACTLY" what they actually mean by that statement??? I can see not tying the dash, ECM, BCM, ABS, Air Bags or other complex car components on that same ground point for that purpose. But the rest of that statement seems a bit vague w/o some additional references. Got any more quotes that they use to flesh out their point of concerns?
Swez
demetman on 07/31/2006 19:33:04
I learn something new every visit here. ttocs just to be 100% clear on the HU ground technique, you are reccomending I run a ground wire from my HU to the trunk (where all equipment will be mounted) and ground with all amps and DQS on the same bolt? I just wanted to be clear as I take notes for future reference. Thanks for the responce and clarification guys.
Demetrios
Victor on 07/31/2006 22:01:32
I would not like to take that long a route to ground my HU, HU can be grounded with the factory harness itself, or somewhere near by, no need to pull it all the way to the trunk.
I would also prefer for precautionary reasons, grounding the HU chassis as well as the RCA outs.
Victor...
swez on 08/1/2006 07:53:41
I have found that grounding the HU properly to metal parts in the dash are generally hood enough. This applies if that metal is mechanically & electrically connected to a known good ground. (Ie: Firewall, floor pan or a ground wire that doesn not connect to your dash instruments) Avoid using the harness ground lines as they often tap into instrument panel functions. It's good enough for factory HU systems, but not always adequate for high power Aftermarket HU's.
Swez
demetman on 08/1/2006 09:21:11
I have always grounded HU to firewall or floorpan and never encountered noise issues. It only makes sence to ground any audio component as close as possible to it's mounting position. I'll stick to the basics here. Thanks
ttocs on 08/1/2006 20:37:06
I am in the process of putting in 2 systems in my own vehicles, that will probably never be done......... If/when I do complete them I will run a power wire as well as a gound with my remote turn on to the trunk. You are already running wires anyway, adding 2 more to the run will not make it any harder but will then allow ALL of the audio componants to get power and ground from the same place. Is this necessary, well no it isn't. It does how ever fit my motto of "do it right, do it once"........
demetman on 08/2/2006 00:55:31
Thanks for your input ttocs. It's educational to hear a few professional installer's opinions on this matter. I do now understand the benifits of grounding all audio components to a common good ground to recieve a signal and potentially eliminate noise issues. I also like to do things right the first time, hence all the questions and concerns I have.
swez on 08/2/2006 08:13:52
Ditto! Do it once... do it right the first time around.
FYI: Have done several full installs for others this year. Have never had ground loop noises and grounded the HU to metal brackets deep in the dash that were known good grounds. (Measured them with an ohmeter to be certain)
Did have one overhaul job for a local kid too. He had terrrible noise problems in his sub feeds and no full range off the HU's amps. Turned out he really did a hack install on the HU. He used a harness ground and just taped his speaker wires, (no crimps or soldering here) to the factory wiring.
That was bad enough... but the end problems were a result of poor grounding, improper amp gain settings for his sub and connectivity problems in the kick panel connectors that fed his aftermarket speakers. I wound up installing new speaker lines from the HU harness to the kick panel connectors. That did the trick.
Funny thing though...(a real learning experience here) The kid was like 19-20 years old, had a 1990 Jeep Cherokee and he came to CK for help. I invited him out to my place to have a look and see what needed to be done. He would have never figured it out on his own accord.
(Begin Rant)
Well, After 4 hours of effort and everything corrected, that little selfish turd from a Bass, left w/o sending any payment back for services rendered. He lived in the high rent district in East Detroit. (St. Clare Shores) So, $$ was not the problem... it was a character flaw. He never returned to CK after that nor returned my e-mails.
Go figure huh?
Swez
PS I did a look up from Dec - Feb 2005-06. Looks like he deleted all his postings from that whole affair. (Covered all his tracks huh?) I guess some people aren't worth the C-4 to blow them to Hell. Boy, did I learn something in this whole mis-adventure. (Should have held his keys until he paid on the spot huh?) Living and learning... some folks are just not worth their salt. (End Rant)
ttocs on 08/2/2006 11:52:29
"Thanks for your input ttocs. It's educational to hear a few professional installer's opinions on this matter. I do now understand the benifits of grounding all audio components to a common good ground to recieve a signal and potentially eliminate noise issues. I also like to do things right the first time, hence all the questions and concerns I have. "
I am not saying that this is the gospel and that everyone should listen to me. This is my personal preference and that is all.
Swez-I do not understand how people think tape is a connector....
I have done more then my share of free/nearly free installs. At the least I normally try to get a lunch out of it depending on how tough a job it is. It is still just rude to not even offer something as a token for your time....
swez on 08/2/2006 14:40:04
Yeah, tape job was horrible, but it was not the worst part of the job. Running fresh speaker wires down from the HU Spk outs to the kick panels were the worst. It took 4.5 hours to do all this in the early part of January. Go figure huh?
What's funny about all this in the process, some good lessons:
1. Not everyone appreciates talent we may have acquired over time
2. Some folks don't think much about others, just themselves
3. When doing jobs like this, confirm the pay rate in advance
4. Hold the keys to his car until he pays up
But ya know, it was also good experience in actually doing the work. Most of us "know the process and steps" to use. However, it's one thing to know how, but quiet another to do it well.
In all, the last few installs have really made me appreciate the skills, guys like you (ttocs) and UK Installer (and others) have brought to CK over the many years and such. After doing maybe 6-8 installs by now, I have realized that head knowledge is fine. But getting everything to come together with skill, (a few choice mutterings) and having the best results... it's not just skill of the hands. It's also thinking on ones' feet, knowing how to use the tools available and the ability to dig deeper when things are not going well at all.
In short, my hat is off to our Pro Installers at CK. It's a tough and often thankless job. But, when the job is done and we are satisfied with the results, that's worth a lot more to us because we know what it took to get it there. CLAP USFLAG
Ol' Yankee/Dixie know-how is a priceless part of America,
Swez
cplkittle on 08/3/2006 15:41:05
we hired a so called MECP certified installer once.. he lasted 6 days.
He asked me where to ground a single sub amp in the trunk once..
He put a fuse 8" from the amp (not 8" from the battery)
I prefer common sense over a fancy piece of paper.
Yes, Swez.. Yankee/Dixie know how.
As for my 2cents worth on this topic..
Put a 2nd battery in the trunk, ground it well, and ground everything to the second battery and see if anyone has anything to say about that.
swez on 08/3/2006 18:39:36
That's pretty funny Kit!
Frankly, never studied the MECP books or any of the pre-test guides before a number of us took that test for fun. It seems that 5-6 of us took the test within a week and 3-4 failed it with 50% or less correct, 1 missed 70% by 2 points and one guy passed with 80% + scoring.
About 4 of these guys were pretty sharp and knew their fields of expertise very well. The other 2 were rookies. Only 3 guys in this sampling, had done any 12 volt projects before.
The overall read I came away with...
1. One can be book smart, still get good grades but is a blundering idiot when ya hand him a set of hand tools
2. One does not have to gain a great deal of books smarts to handle many tasks with relative ease and picks up new skills fast
3. Most are somewhere in between the above parameters.
Some folks pick up new ideas fast and run with them. Others take a while longer to catch on, but eventually come around. Still others can spend lots of time learning about something, but never get a good grip on the subject matter.
"BTW, would ya mind handing me the left-handed side cutters please?" Sure... what color are they anyway? GRIN
Swez
ttocs on 08/3/2006 18:47:41
It is something that I have always been drawn to as I enjoy it so much. I can say that I do not enjoy it as much when I do it full time for a long period, or even part time when it is 110+ here in the phoenix summer but I always enjoyed it and the extra cash now is great.
I took the mecp almost 10 yrs ago now and was installer certified, but I too have seen some stupid people that had that certification... That can go be said about almost any job though. I now work fulltime in semiconductor manf and there are some really smart people there, and some really dumb ones. I had a trainee for 3 weeks and I could not even start to teach him the basics when he did show up on time, did stay awake, and actually tried. After three weeks I realized that I thought he was an ok guy that I could go out and get a beer with from time to time, but not the kind of guy I wanted to work with. I realized that if he was there I was going to have more work to do so I told them to cut-and-run. I got a new trainee this week and he is already past the point I was at with the other when I canned him.
Also try to send them out for the 6 x 9 hole saw, or the wire stretcher. We had a guy last month diggin in the wood shop for 20 mins before he thought about it and realized..... Truely priceless.
There are two good things about stupid people. They are job security and great entertainment......
Stupid people are everywhere.......... Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding....
demetman on 08/4/2006 01:56:55
It's all in good fun. I send my new dishwashers to my buddies place for buckets of steam, elbow grease, spaghetti stretchers and left handed crepe pans all the time. Some look at me and laugh and others run out the back door like a bat out of hell. It's all about what we can laugh at in the end.
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