Hey guys hows it going?
I am planning on purchasing a pair of Hertz Hi-Energy 6.5" component speakers. They have are rated at 150wrms and my JL e4300 amp only puts out 70wrms @ 4ohm @ 14.4v. If I were to bridge the L/R channels on the front a rear outputs would this diminish the quality of the signal being produced?
The guy at the shop says he sees this done quite frequently and is usually impressed with the outcome. I just wanted to hear what CK's opinion was on this subject and if anybody currently has a set up similar to this.
Thanks,
Jay
Replies (16)
ttocs on 07/24/2006 09:40:13
You would not notice a difference. What are you bridging the rear channels to?
swez on 07/24/2006 10:05:51
Should be fine here with that plan. The key is setting your amp gains and crossover, (HPF) to minimize amplifier clipping problems.
You may not notice a huge difference in audio output between 70/140 watts RMS, but the clarity of the speakers should be better as you have more clean power in reserve before amp clipping becomes an issue.
Swez
LC1 on 07/24/2006 13:25:28
ttocs, I would be bridging the front channels for one speaker and the rear channels for the other speaker. Basically turing my 4ch amp into a 2ch amp. I know I will lose front/rear fading but that is ok as I can balance the system with the time correction function on my head unit.
Thanks for the replies, I will let you know how this turns out. I have also never used Hertz Audio before but I have demoed them on the board at the shop and I was very surprised at the quality and clarity of sound these components produced. Just as good or even better quality as higer end companies such as Focal. Hertz is distributed by Audison so you know they must be doing somthing right.
Talk to you later,
Jay
ttocs on 07/24/2006 14:48:04
is that amp stable for a 2 ohm stereo load? I would try it in four channel mode before bridging it. Remember that if you double the power you will only gain 3 db of spl.
swez on 07/24/2006 16:32:25
Consider bridging the 4 channel for only the front speakers and power the rears off the HU rear channel amps. You can also use a smaller amp for the rear channels only. That's one way to do this.
To get good balance and fade control here, know that the rear speakers are often louder than most front speakers by some 3-6 dB. It's more to do with speaker location and transfer function, that gives this common effect. So, you can use a smaller amp on the rear speakers and still achieve adequate balance.
If you tried to use the amp as noted previously, here are the results to expect:
1. The amp will heat up badly and shut down (2 ohms/ch bridged... no way bro)
2. You'd have to wire your speakers in series for a net 8 ohms to be safe (This defeats the whole purpose of more power to each speaker)
3. If I understand your plan, you have say left channel only on the front speakers, the right channel for rears (very strange imaging this way)
In short, try the 4 channel as designed. One channel per quadrant. The amp delivers 70 x 4 @ 4 ohms. This is pretty strong amp and 70 watts per speakr is nothing to sneeze at. Especially if the speakers used, are high efficiency models. (+90 dB @ 1w/1m)
As ttocs so aptly mentioned, if we double the wattage, we only get a +3 dB bump in SPL per speaker. Not only that, but with some help from a cars' typical transfer function, (Cabin gain effect) you'll probably find you get very nice MB, adequate MR/Highs too.
LC, you've been here long enough to know we would not steer you in the wrong direction. Hopefully, you'll also know that when we give the thumbs down on a given idea, there's a very good reason for it. Trust our call on this one... barking up the wrong tree on the proposed plan bro. USFLAG
Swez
Ash on 07/25/2006 18:15:55
I would take their advice on this one. You have to remember as well that in a SQ install, distortion is your main enemy. Usually when a amp is bridged, the distortion rate goes up. Though the added amounts can be miniscule, the pros may not outweigh the cons.
Before deciding, compare the distortion ratings in the mode you which to run them to see if it's worth it yourself.
LC1 on 07/26/2006 00:31:42
I guess I should have been more specifc. I will be bridging the front and rear channels with a 4ohm load. The amp will put out 150wrms (bridged) @ 4oms @ 12.5v.
What I am trying to say is I will be bridging Front Left/Front Right for one speaker and Rear Left/Rear Right for the other speaker. The final load will be 4ohms. It will also only be one set of components running off the amp. The rear fill speaker will be run off the HU.
swez on 07/26/2006 10:43:43
There's something missing here and I need more clarification before offering any addition suggestions.
These Hertz speakers mentioned before, are they 2,4 or 8 ohm speakers?
Understand your wiring scheme now. (Thanks for clarifying) However, I don't undertand why you want to put both front speakers on channal A/B and rear speakers on channels C/D in bridged configuration???
This nets MONO LEFT to the front speakers and MONO Right to rear speakers??? Not sure why one would go that route as front stereo imaging (Left to Right) is now gone.
Can you fill in the blanks a bit for us?
Swez
LC1 on 07/26/2006 23:16:32
Here is the wiring schematic that I was thinking of doing. However, I did not think of the left/right imaging. I guess I would lose that with this configuration too. Also the Hertz speakers are 4ohm.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7725/copyofwiringqr3.jpg
I didn't think that this was uncommon as I have been to a few shops and they have all said they have done this with higher powered components.
P.S. No rear speakers will be hooked up to this amplifer.
Jay
swez on 07/26/2006 23:48:29
Got it !!!
This is exactly what we do to get more power and clarity to front stage speakers. Your pictorial said it all and that IS the way to do what you want to accomplish.
Nuff said and enjoy the new Hertz speakers with all the power they crave.
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 00:50:19
Pfeeew.... glad we cleared that up haha. In my head what I was typing made perfect sence. I guess people aren't as crazy as I am lol.
Anyways, what about the left to right front stage imaging? Techically the left speaker will be on the front channel and the right speaker will be on the rear channel won't it? With this mess up any left to right imaging or should it still sound alright?
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 01:48:14
Quote "Anyways, what about the left to right front stage imaging? Techically the left speaker will be on the front channel and the right speaker will be on the rear channel won't it? With this mess up any left to right imaging or should it still sound alright"?
That's where the disconnect came in. (What fun words can be huh?) We not only changed the # of channels we are now using, but we also re-assigned/merged channels for more output. Thus, we have to change what we now call this little critter.
In a nut shell, you have created a strong 2 channel (stereo) amplifier. We are now dealing with a robust FRONT Right and Left channel system, NOT a Front/Back, Left/Right system anymore.
This was a very good example of what I often call the "Words Get In The Way" mental block. What you said while typing made perfect sense to you, but very foggy to me.
What I said to you, was also confusing and made you second-quess the process. In all, we were speaking in different languages, but saying the same things all along.
The picture took what....10 minutes to create? But, a few seconds to understand. Now, we are in total agreement and yes, you'll be just fine on this plan. Yes, I can bless the next step. Press on and go for it. (Just be mindful with your gain and HPF settings)
Too funny Jay... LOL, but it proved an age old problem solving solution... "Two heads are better than one, but both heads have to see the same picture". (And AGREE upon the meaning)
Good luck and keep us informed on your project OK?
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 02:47:02
I like that quote, "Two heads are better than one, but both heads have to see the same picture." I am definately going to use that sometime.
One last question before I go out buy and install these new speakers. I will be losing my BALANCE and FADER functions on the head unit won't I? If I were to fade the sound to the rear the sound will actually go right or left correct? Also what about those few songs where they mix the sound up by playing some instruments towards the left side of the sound stage etc etc.? Is there any way to overcome this?
Thanks,
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 11:48:59
The HU will still have "Balance and Fade" controls available to you. But, only if you use the HU amps to power any rear speakers.
Obviously, the rear speakers will have much less output than the amped front Comps. (about 9dB-12dB down from the amped speakers) However, if the rear speakers are very high in efficiency, (say +92 dB SPL @ 1w/1m) the differences can be minimized.
Yes, you will still have the discrete stereo separation of hard left or hard right "panning" used on some music cuts. You can easily test that function with a good audio test tone software program of .wav files. This one should do it:
http://www.eminent-tech.com/music/multimediatest.html
This is a very basic set of test tones. However, there's enough here to get you in the ballpark. Just burn a copy of each test tone in the link and use them to test system performance. (Sub, MB, MR & highs)
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 12:49:51
Sounds good thanks for the help once again. I will let you know how it turns out once I get everything installed.
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 13:29:46
Roger that!
Swez
I am planning on purchasing a pair of Hertz Hi-Energy 6.5" component speakers. They have are rated at 150wrms and my JL e4300 amp only puts out 70wrms @ 4ohm @ 14.4v. If I were to bridge the L/R channels on the front a rear outputs would this diminish the quality of the signal being produced?
The guy at the shop says he sees this done quite frequently and is usually impressed with the outcome. I just wanted to hear what CK's opinion was on this subject and if anybody currently has a set up similar to this.
Thanks,
Jay
Replies (16)
ttocs on 07/24/2006 09:40:13
You would not notice a difference. What are you bridging the rear channels to?
swez on 07/24/2006 10:05:51
Should be fine here with that plan. The key is setting your amp gains and crossover, (HPF) to minimize amplifier clipping problems.
You may not notice a huge difference in audio output between 70/140 watts RMS, but the clarity of the speakers should be better as you have more clean power in reserve before amp clipping becomes an issue.
Swez
LC1 on 07/24/2006 13:25:28
ttocs, I would be bridging the front channels for one speaker and the rear channels for the other speaker. Basically turing my 4ch amp into a 2ch amp. I know I will lose front/rear fading but that is ok as I can balance the system with the time correction function on my head unit.
Thanks for the replies, I will let you know how this turns out. I have also never used Hertz Audio before but I have demoed them on the board at the shop and I was very surprised at the quality and clarity of sound these components produced. Just as good or even better quality as higer end companies such as Focal. Hertz is distributed by Audison so you know they must be doing somthing right.
Talk to you later,
Jay
ttocs on 07/24/2006 14:48:04
is that amp stable for a 2 ohm stereo load? I would try it in four channel mode before bridging it. Remember that if you double the power you will only gain 3 db of spl.
swez on 07/24/2006 16:32:25
Consider bridging the 4 channel for only the front speakers and power the rears off the HU rear channel amps. You can also use a smaller amp for the rear channels only. That's one way to do this.
To get good balance and fade control here, know that the rear speakers are often louder than most front speakers by some 3-6 dB. It's more to do with speaker location and transfer function, that gives this common effect. So, you can use a smaller amp on the rear speakers and still achieve adequate balance.
If you tried to use the amp as noted previously, here are the results to expect:
1. The amp will heat up badly and shut down (2 ohms/ch bridged... no way bro)
2. You'd have to wire your speakers in series for a net 8 ohms to be safe (This defeats the whole purpose of more power to each speaker)
3. If I understand your plan, you have say left channel only on the front speakers, the right channel for rears (very strange imaging this way)
In short, try the 4 channel as designed. One channel per quadrant. The amp delivers 70 x 4 @ 4 ohms. This is pretty strong amp and 70 watts per speakr is nothing to sneeze at. Especially if the speakers used, are high efficiency models. (+90 dB @ 1w/1m)
As ttocs so aptly mentioned, if we double the wattage, we only get a +3 dB bump in SPL per speaker. Not only that, but with some help from a cars' typical transfer function, (Cabin gain effect) you'll probably find you get very nice MB, adequate MR/Highs too.
LC, you've been here long enough to know we would not steer you in the wrong direction. Hopefully, you'll also know that when we give the thumbs down on a given idea, there's a very good reason for it. Trust our call on this one... barking up the wrong tree on the proposed plan bro. USFLAG
Swez
Ash on 07/25/2006 18:15:55
I would take their advice on this one. You have to remember as well that in a SQ install, distortion is your main enemy. Usually when a amp is bridged, the distortion rate goes up. Though the added amounts can be miniscule, the pros may not outweigh the cons.
Before deciding, compare the distortion ratings in the mode you which to run them to see if it's worth it yourself.
LC1 on 07/26/2006 00:31:42
I guess I should have been more specifc. I will be bridging the front and rear channels with a 4ohm load. The amp will put out 150wrms (bridged) @ 4oms @ 12.5v.
What I am trying to say is I will be bridging Front Left/Front Right for one speaker and Rear Left/Rear Right for the other speaker. The final load will be 4ohms. It will also only be one set of components running off the amp. The rear fill speaker will be run off the HU.
swez on 07/26/2006 10:43:43
There's something missing here and I need more clarification before offering any addition suggestions.
These Hertz speakers mentioned before, are they 2,4 or 8 ohm speakers?
Understand your wiring scheme now. (Thanks for clarifying) However, I don't undertand why you want to put both front speakers on channal A/B and rear speakers on channels C/D in bridged configuration???
This nets MONO LEFT to the front speakers and MONO Right to rear speakers??? Not sure why one would go that route as front stereo imaging (Left to Right) is now gone.
Can you fill in the blanks a bit for us?
Swez
LC1 on 07/26/2006 23:16:32
Here is the wiring schematic that I was thinking of doing. However, I did not think of the left/right imaging. I guess I would lose that with this configuration too. Also the Hertz speakers are 4ohm.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7725/copyofwiringqr3.jpg
I didn't think that this was uncommon as I have been to a few shops and they have all said they have done this with higher powered components.
P.S. No rear speakers will be hooked up to this amplifer.
Jay
swez on 07/26/2006 23:48:29
Got it !!!
This is exactly what we do to get more power and clarity to front stage speakers. Your pictorial said it all and that IS the way to do what you want to accomplish.
Nuff said and enjoy the new Hertz speakers with all the power they crave.
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 00:50:19
Pfeeew.... glad we cleared that up haha. In my head what I was typing made perfect sence. I guess people aren't as crazy as I am lol.
Anyways, what about the left to right front stage imaging? Techically the left speaker will be on the front channel and the right speaker will be on the rear channel won't it? With this mess up any left to right imaging or should it still sound alright?
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 01:48:14
Quote "Anyways, what about the left to right front stage imaging? Techically the left speaker will be on the front channel and the right speaker will be on the rear channel won't it? With this mess up any left to right imaging or should it still sound alright"?
That's where the disconnect came in. (What fun words can be huh?) We not only changed the # of channels we are now using, but we also re-assigned/merged channels for more output. Thus, we have to change what we now call this little critter.
In a nut shell, you have created a strong 2 channel (stereo) amplifier. We are now dealing with a robust FRONT Right and Left channel system, NOT a Front/Back, Left/Right system anymore.
This was a very good example of what I often call the "Words Get In The Way" mental block. What you said while typing made perfect sense to you, but very foggy to me.
What I said to you, was also confusing and made you second-quess the process. In all, we were speaking in different languages, but saying the same things all along.
The picture took what....10 minutes to create? But, a few seconds to understand. Now, we are in total agreement and yes, you'll be just fine on this plan. Yes, I can bless the next step. Press on and go for it. (Just be mindful with your gain and HPF settings)
Too funny Jay... LOL, but it proved an age old problem solving solution... "Two heads are better than one, but both heads have to see the same picture". (And AGREE upon the meaning)
Good luck and keep us informed on your project OK?
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 02:47:02
I like that quote, "Two heads are better than one, but both heads have to see the same picture." I am definately going to use that sometime.
One last question before I go out buy and install these new speakers. I will be losing my BALANCE and FADER functions on the head unit won't I? If I were to fade the sound to the rear the sound will actually go right or left correct? Also what about those few songs where they mix the sound up by playing some instruments towards the left side of the sound stage etc etc.? Is there any way to overcome this?
Thanks,
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 11:48:59
The HU will still have "Balance and Fade" controls available to you. But, only if you use the HU amps to power any rear speakers.
Obviously, the rear speakers will have much less output than the amped front Comps. (about 9dB-12dB down from the amped speakers) However, if the rear speakers are very high in efficiency, (say +92 dB SPL @ 1w/1m) the differences can be minimized.
Yes, you will still have the discrete stereo separation of hard left or hard right "panning" used on some music cuts. You can easily test that function with a good audio test tone software program of .wav files. This one should do it:
http://www.eminent-tech.com/music/multimediatest.html
This is a very basic set of test tones. However, there's enough here to get you in the ballpark. Just burn a copy of each test tone in the link and use them to test system performance. (Sub, MB, MR & highs)
Swez
LC1 on 07/27/2006 12:49:51
Sounds good thanks for the help once again. I will let you know how it turns out once I get everything installed.
Jay
swez on 07/27/2006 13:29:46
Roger that!
Swez
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