I know Im a pain but i just cant seem to get it right. Which of the three subs I mention will go the best with the MA audio M489i Amplifier or the Ma Audio M689i or the Ma Audio M683I. (Which one is better of the three amps, I want to run two 10"s on them.) So which amp and what subs between the KENWOOD TORNADO KFC-W2509, KICKER CVR10 COMP, or the AUDIOBAHN AW1051T AW1051SE. Ok to recap. Which Amp would be best, and which subs would go together with the amp the best. If you have a suggestion on different subs, im all ears. I want to run 2 of whatever subs you guys suggest.
Replies (15)
swez on 07/15/2006 21:03:38
Actually, most of the items metioned here are not the most efficient setup for a quality bass engine. (2 channel amps and 4 ohm subs)
Can you give a basic budget on the project and we can pull a few things together that should make you very happy.
Also, do you have future plans to upgrade your mid/highs with external amping too? This matters a lot regarding power management for your gear and getting a good mix between Mids/Highs/Sub.
Comments?
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 00:02:30
ok I want to spend probably 200-350$ i want a nice bass sound with two tens, the mids and highs i want so when the bass isnt pumping too bad you can still here the people singing/rapping and what not. I want a nice clear crisp sound out of the bass that will turn a few heads and you can hear a few houses away you know what im going for here? I want to stick with two 10" subs, and I am in a competition with my cousin so I want it to be about the same or even a little bit better than his setup of a sony Xplod 1200W amp, and two kicker comp 10" free air subs.
lilschtive on 07/16/2006 00:19:11
heh, sounds like me..does your car have the two 6x9's behind the back seat where the head rest is?
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 00:23:17
the 6X9s Are in the tray where the old 6X9's went, they are on the sides next to the hatchback, i made them fit in their by customizing the fitting a little wider.
Hey swez in case you diddn't see the add on i made this is what else I wanted:
to stick with two 10" subs, and I am in a competition with my cousin so I want it to be about the same or even a little bit better than his setup of a sony Xplod 1200W 2ch. amp, and two kicker comp 10" free air subs.
wanted:
swez on 07/16/2006 11:41:13
OK, 2 x 10's it shall be. Do you wish to go ported and have some extra bump and a slightly larger box?
Do you know the model # of that Sony 'EXPLODES' amp mentioned?
He's using a pair of Kicker Comp VR's in free air? Really??? That alone can put you heads and tails over his install with a good amp, subs and a well matched enclosure.
I have to go to work soon. Will get back to you with some suggestions in that budget range soon.
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 11:47:07
Yea his sony Xplod XM-2200GTX I am almost positive about that, he also said it was juiced up a bit from a shop or something. His kicker Comps are in a dual 10" sealed box, and they are supposedly a few years old. I thought the brand name is free air not sure though. I have one 10" sub box sealed already and wasn't sure if i would just get a new one or not and run two sealed, but if ported is what would work better than ported it shall be. You guys have never let me down so you really know what your talking about. But I can't stress enough about wanting it to sound loud when I want it to but when I don't and just want nice sound I want to be able to hear the music in general and not just bass but still here the subs providing a bit. It is hard to explain I am horrible at doing so, if you need a better description let me know and I'll try to reword it. Also My Alternator isnt the best, it isnt a pro but it isnt too weak so I am not sure what to do there and really dont want to get a new alternator because it will be SO expensive for a saab. Just thought Id mention it.
swez on 07/17/2006 02:26:53
OK, that Sony amp is a 2 channel amp and when bridged to a 4 ohm load, it will deliver pretty close to 500 watts RMS power to the subs. One thing though, this amp draws a lot of current. It is fused at 40A's x 2.
Now, with that much bass power, no stock HU amps and speakers will keep up with that much bass power. If you want to beat him in SQ and adequate bass, that can be done with high efficiency speakers and adequate amping. This is not cheap nor will it be a shabby install when you maximize your buying power for the gear you desire.
As for the sub option, a ported enclosure, high efficiency sub and adequate amping power will get you some pretty stong bump. To keep costs down, consider a single 10-12" sub. There's no big benefit to using mutiple subs until we go over the 500 RMS threshold. A single strong sub, in a well designed enclosure is sure to please.
The other aspect to consider is power management for the amp(s) used. Call around to a local Saab dealership or good autoparts stores and find out what size ALT comes stock with this vehicle package. Once we know that variable, we'll have a baseline on what to consider and how to work with minimal expensive upgrades, but still feed your amp(s) enough current to get the results.
Finally, consider doing this in smaller steps. This will break up the initial expense and give you investment grade gear as well. Just keep all your stock gear and re-install it if you sell this vehicle later.
Comments?
Swez
PS If you wish to discuss a long term plan to elevate your present audio enjoyment factor over time, let me know and we can touch base via Yahoo IM or e-mails.
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 09:47:12
Ok my alternator is a 90 Amp one, now that you mention all that about his setup I dont really mind about beating him I just want nice sound. So if you could give me suggestions on a god amp and good 10" or 12" let me know so I can see what to do. With a 90 amp alternator can you tell me roughly how big of an amp I can upgrade to without sacrificing the alternator.
How about a 2 channel Dual XIA2460 amp, at 100watts rms per channel. It will be better than the cuspid am-4310 I have and should work just fine with a sub?
swez on 07/17/2006 14:21:16
The key to adequate power with this modest stock ALT, will be a high CCA rated BAT and the "Big 3 Upgrade".
Am thinking your car will need 40-50A's to power the essential electricals in the car and you have some reserve power for the amp(s) of choice here.
The large CCA BAT will give you a reserve current storage capacity that can offset the modest ALT output. This is especially true on deep bass hits.
Before we start talking about amplifiers and such, what speakers and HU are in this car now? Also, have a look at your BAT. There should be a sticker on it that gives the CCA rating of that BAT. If the BAT is more than 4 years old, you're at the end of its life cycle. Time to replace it soon anyway.
Comments?
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 21:47:31
My battery is brand new I just bought it recently. I have a Virtual rReality (VR3) head unit in it. Does 45 watts X 4 with 22 watts X 4 RMS. I have those legacy's for the front 3.5" and the rear 6X9's I mentioned in the very first Post I made.
Like i mentioned before, what about that Dual XIA2460. 100 watts RMS per channel. it shouldnt be too horrible what you think?
swez on 07/17/2006 22:12:42
For your sub(s) consider the Dual XPA6100. It's a Class D MONO amp for sub use only. It appears to deliver about 300 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=duaxpa6100&store=&catid=8054 $90.00 + S/H
That Cuspid amp mentioned, (Cuspid am-4310) what is the fuse value in this amp? It may be useful to drive full range speakers.
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 22:42:59
15a fuse value, How are mtx subs by the way? If I get this dual what type of subs will work real good with it? My battery is a 590 cold cranking amp, and a 700 cranking amp @ 32 degrees.
How about this set up: a Dual XIA2460 2 channel amp (145 watts rms X 2 @ 2ohms). With 2 MTX T4510-44 THUNDER SERIES 10" subs DVC with RMS of 50-225 watts, 450 watts peak power. Run each sub DVC @ 2ohms like the diagram I saw and it would be good? or no?
Also my cousins subs I did some research and here is as follows, the kicker has 125 watts rms and 500 watts peak power, and his second kicker broke so he put in a pioneer immp with 120 watts rms and 400watts peak power. He is putting 200 watts rms to each one, and they still sound crystal clear, why is that and is it doing long term damage to them?
swez on 07/18/2006 20:57:30
Hummmm, that Cuspid amp nets out to about 30 watts RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms per channel. When bridged to a 2 channel configuration, it might be decent enough to power front speakers at about 60 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms.
That Dual 2 channel offers the same power as the Class D MONO amp I noted earlier. The 2 channel version has about 60% efficiency rating while the Class D is more like 80%. That's why I recommended the class D amp. You get more output power to the sub(s) and less power draw from the vehicle electrical system. Hense, a better option for powering subs.
The MTX subs mentioned will work ok with the 2 channel amp as mentioned. However, if you use the Class D amp, go for a pair of 4 ohm SVC subs, wired in parallel to this amp.
A pair of these subs will get the job done:
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2163
Swez
PS Regarding your cousin's system, it's better to have a stronger amp that can deliver more clean power to speakers/subs than a pair of strong subs and a weaker amp that is clipping very badly. (+10% distortion/THD)
The best way to preserve subs, is to know the voltage they are getting from the amp outputs. We can measure AC voltage for general parameters. But, an Oscilloscope shows the waveform, frequency and voltage amplitude (power in the signal) is a far better tool. An AC voltmeter will only tell the voltage we get from the amp, to the load. (subs) Here's a quick list of voltage/wattage ratings for a 4 ohm load:
Ohmic Load...............Wattage Rating..............Voltage Reading
4 or 2....................... 50 watts RMS............... 14.14 or 10.0 VAC
4 or 2....................... 75 watts RMS............... 17.32 or 12.25 VAC
4 or 2...................... 100 watts RMS............... 20.00 or 14.14 VAC
4 or 2.......................150 watts RMS............... 24.50 or 17.32 VAC
4 or 2.......................200 watts RMS............... 28.30 or 20.00 VAC
4 or 2.......................300 watts RMS............... 34.64 or 24.50 VAC
See how that all works out?
Zach1989 on 07/18/2006 21:37:50
Alright swez thank you very much Ill let you know, as for me keep saying I am going to donate when i get paid this thursday or friday (depending on the bank deposit) I will be showing some support for this site, definately dont need it shut down.
swez on 07/19/2006 07:13:37
Good nuff... donations keep this site going and we appreciate every buck that flows into the donation box. SMILE
Swez
Replies (15)
swez on 07/15/2006 21:03:38
Actually, most of the items metioned here are not the most efficient setup for a quality bass engine. (2 channel amps and 4 ohm subs)
Can you give a basic budget on the project and we can pull a few things together that should make you very happy.
Also, do you have future plans to upgrade your mid/highs with external amping too? This matters a lot regarding power management for your gear and getting a good mix between Mids/Highs/Sub.
Comments?
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 00:02:30
ok I want to spend probably 200-350$ i want a nice bass sound with two tens, the mids and highs i want so when the bass isnt pumping too bad you can still here the people singing/rapping and what not. I want a nice clear crisp sound out of the bass that will turn a few heads and you can hear a few houses away you know what im going for here? I want to stick with two 10" subs, and I am in a competition with my cousin so I want it to be about the same or even a little bit better than his setup of a sony Xplod 1200W amp, and two kicker comp 10" free air subs.
lilschtive on 07/16/2006 00:19:11
heh, sounds like me..does your car have the two 6x9's behind the back seat where the head rest is?
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 00:23:17
the 6X9s Are in the tray where the old 6X9's went, they are on the sides next to the hatchback, i made them fit in their by customizing the fitting a little wider.
Hey swez in case you diddn't see the add on i made this is what else I wanted:
to stick with two 10" subs, and I am in a competition with my cousin so I want it to be about the same or even a little bit better than his setup of a sony Xplod 1200W 2ch. amp, and two kicker comp 10" free air subs.
wanted:
swez on 07/16/2006 11:41:13
OK, 2 x 10's it shall be. Do you wish to go ported and have some extra bump and a slightly larger box?
Do you know the model # of that Sony 'EXPLODES' amp mentioned?
He's using a pair of Kicker Comp VR's in free air? Really??? That alone can put you heads and tails over his install with a good amp, subs and a well matched enclosure.
I have to go to work soon. Will get back to you with some suggestions in that budget range soon.
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/16/2006 11:47:07
Yea his sony Xplod XM-2200GTX I am almost positive about that, he also said it was juiced up a bit from a shop or something. His kicker Comps are in a dual 10" sealed box, and they are supposedly a few years old. I thought the brand name is free air not sure though. I have one 10" sub box sealed already and wasn't sure if i would just get a new one or not and run two sealed, but if ported is what would work better than ported it shall be. You guys have never let me down so you really know what your talking about. But I can't stress enough about wanting it to sound loud when I want it to but when I don't and just want nice sound I want to be able to hear the music in general and not just bass but still here the subs providing a bit. It is hard to explain I am horrible at doing so, if you need a better description let me know and I'll try to reword it. Also My Alternator isnt the best, it isnt a pro but it isnt too weak so I am not sure what to do there and really dont want to get a new alternator because it will be SO expensive for a saab. Just thought Id mention it.
swez on 07/17/2006 02:26:53
OK, that Sony amp is a 2 channel amp and when bridged to a 4 ohm load, it will deliver pretty close to 500 watts RMS power to the subs. One thing though, this amp draws a lot of current. It is fused at 40A's x 2.
Now, with that much bass power, no stock HU amps and speakers will keep up with that much bass power. If you want to beat him in SQ and adequate bass, that can be done with high efficiency speakers and adequate amping. This is not cheap nor will it be a shabby install when you maximize your buying power for the gear you desire.
As for the sub option, a ported enclosure, high efficiency sub and adequate amping power will get you some pretty stong bump. To keep costs down, consider a single 10-12" sub. There's no big benefit to using mutiple subs until we go over the 500 RMS threshold. A single strong sub, in a well designed enclosure is sure to please.
The other aspect to consider is power management for the amp(s) used. Call around to a local Saab dealership or good autoparts stores and find out what size ALT comes stock with this vehicle package. Once we know that variable, we'll have a baseline on what to consider and how to work with minimal expensive upgrades, but still feed your amp(s) enough current to get the results.
Finally, consider doing this in smaller steps. This will break up the initial expense and give you investment grade gear as well. Just keep all your stock gear and re-install it if you sell this vehicle later.
Comments?
Swez
PS If you wish to discuss a long term plan to elevate your present audio enjoyment factor over time, let me know and we can touch base via Yahoo IM or e-mails.
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 09:47:12
Ok my alternator is a 90 Amp one, now that you mention all that about his setup I dont really mind about beating him I just want nice sound. So if you could give me suggestions on a god amp and good 10" or 12" let me know so I can see what to do. With a 90 amp alternator can you tell me roughly how big of an amp I can upgrade to without sacrificing the alternator.
How about a 2 channel Dual XIA2460 amp, at 100watts rms per channel. It will be better than the cuspid am-4310 I have and should work just fine with a sub?
swez on 07/17/2006 14:21:16
The key to adequate power with this modest stock ALT, will be a high CCA rated BAT and the "Big 3 Upgrade".
Am thinking your car will need 40-50A's to power the essential electricals in the car and you have some reserve power for the amp(s) of choice here.
The large CCA BAT will give you a reserve current storage capacity that can offset the modest ALT output. This is especially true on deep bass hits.
Before we start talking about amplifiers and such, what speakers and HU are in this car now? Also, have a look at your BAT. There should be a sticker on it that gives the CCA rating of that BAT. If the BAT is more than 4 years old, you're at the end of its life cycle. Time to replace it soon anyway.
Comments?
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 21:47:31
My battery is brand new I just bought it recently. I have a Virtual rReality (VR3) head unit in it. Does 45 watts X 4 with 22 watts X 4 RMS. I have those legacy's for the front 3.5" and the rear 6X9's I mentioned in the very first Post I made.
Like i mentioned before, what about that Dual XIA2460. 100 watts RMS per channel. it shouldnt be too horrible what you think?
swez on 07/17/2006 22:12:42
For your sub(s) consider the Dual XPA6100. It's a Class D MONO amp for sub use only. It appears to deliver about 300 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=duaxpa6100&store=&catid=8054 $90.00 + S/H
That Cuspid amp mentioned, (Cuspid am-4310) what is the fuse value in this amp? It may be useful to drive full range speakers.
Swez
Zach1989 on 07/17/2006 22:42:59
15a fuse value, How are mtx subs by the way? If I get this dual what type of subs will work real good with it? My battery is a 590 cold cranking amp, and a 700 cranking amp @ 32 degrees.
How about this set up: a Dual XIA2460 2 channel amp (145 watts rms X 2 @ 2ohms). With 2 MTX T4510-44 THUNDER SERIES 10" subs DVC with RMS of 50-225 watts, 450 watts peak power. Run each sub DVC @ 2ohms like the diagram I saw and it would be good? or no?
Also my cousins subs I did some research and here is as follows, the kicker has 125 watts rms and 500 watts peak power, and his second kicker broke so he put in a pioneer immp with 120 watts rms and 400watts peak power. He is putting 200 watts rms to each one, and they still sound crystal clear, why is that and is it doing long term damage to them?
swez on 07/18/2006 20:57:30
Hummmm, that Cuspid amp nets out to about 30 watts RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms per channel. When bridged to a 2 channel configuration, it might be decent enough to power front speakers at about 60 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms.
That Dual 2 channel offers the same power as the Class D MONO amp I noted earlier. The 2 channel version has about 60% efficiency rating while the Class D is more like 80%. That's why I recommended the class D amp. You get more output power to the sub(s) and less power draw from the vehicle electrical system. Hense, a better option for powering subs.
The MTX subs mentioned will work ok with the 2 channel amp as mentioned. However, if you use the Class D amp, go for a pair of 4 ohm SVC subs, wired in parallel to this amp.
A pair of these subs will get the job done:
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2163
Swez
PS Regarding your cousin's system, it's better to have a stronger amp that can deliver more clean power to speakers/subs than a pair of strong subs and a weaker amp that is clipping very badly. (+10% distortion/THD)
The best way to preserve subs, is to know the voltage they are getting from the amp outputs. We can measure AC voltage for general parameters. But, an Oscilloscope shows the waveform, frequency and voltage amplitude (power in the signal) is a far better tool. An AC voltmeter will only tell the voltage we get from the amp, to the load. (subs) Here's a quick list of voltage/wattage ratings for a 4 ohm load:
Ohmic Load...............Wattage Rating..............Voltage Reading
4 or 2....................... 50 watts RMS............... 14.14 or 10.0 VAC
4 or 2....................... 75 watts RMS............... 17.32 or 12.25 VAC
4 or 2...................... 100 watts RMS............... 20.00 or 14.14 VAC
4 or 2.......................150 watts RMS............... 24.50 or 17.32 VAC
4 or 2.......................200 watts RMS............... 28.30 or 20.00 VAC
4 or 2.......................300 watts RMS............... 34.64 or 24.50 VAC
See how that all works out?
Zach1989 on 07/18/2006 21:37:50
Alright swez thank you very much Ill let you know, as for me keep saying I am going to donate when i get paid this thursday or friday (depending on the bank deposit) I will be showing some support for this site, definately dont need it shut down.
swez on 07/19/2006 07:13:37
Good nuff... donations keep this site going and we appreciate every buck that flows into the donation box. SMILE
Swez
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