Hey guys, I would greatly appreciate any knowledge on the difference in sound quality from conventional and bi-wiring conections to passive crossovers. I currently have a set of a/d/s/ 346cs comps and recently reviewed the installation manual for an up and coming project. I will be using a JL 300/2 or a 450/4 not sure yet. According to the manual I have an opion of using a bi-wiring/parallel or conventional configuration of wiring from amp to crossover network. Any experience and feedback from a sound quality standpoint is greatly appreciated.
Demetrios
Replies (9)
Victor on 07/5/2006 22:46:54
theory wise i have read a lot, but never tried it to see the actual results..
wont be able to say a lot here, will surely post some links for u to read but later, right now gotta hurry catch a bus to the next city, attending a friends wedding..
Bye for now..
Victor...
swez on 07/5/2006 22:58:25
Bi-amping is the Cat's pajamas, cleanest way to go and no insertion losses from a passive crossover either. (~1.5dB losses here)
The key is knowing the tweeters power handling ability and what the recommended frequency range would be for the tweeter, w/o a passive crossover. That info would have to come directly from A/D/S.
Also, you'd need to use an active band pass filter network for the woofers. Most gear in this performance range have MB/MR drivers that can go as high as 2.0 - 3.5 KHz. The tweeter does everything above that. Again, knowing the specs on the MB/MR driver and tweeters are needed from the mfg.
The passive networks used by speakers in this class are pretty well engineered to get the most from your Comps. I would doupt the human ear could detect much of an improvement between using the passive crossover VS Bi-amped systems. It's probably more down to bragging rights at this level of components.
Swez
demetman on 07/5/2006 23:32:54
Thank you for the feedback! The manual does state that Bi-amping will produce the highest possible sound quality by allowing the use of the amps level controls to provide an additional level of fine tuning not possible with the tweeter-level switch alone. Since you guys do not believe there will be a noticeable difference in wiring options I will plot a conventional wiring approach for simplicity. I was also wondering if I should use the supplied wires for connections. I believe the wire guage is 16awg and the crossover accepts up tp 14awg wire.
Could I use a Bi-amp configuration using a single 4 channel amp one channel to drive the tweeters and one channel to drive woofers with superior effect? I will gladely request the power handeling and frequancy range for the woofers and tweeters from a/d/s/. I am open to any JL amps to set these comps up. I currently own a 300/2 that i will potentially use to drive a set of edesign EU-700 MB drivers. Any ideas please let me know. The other equip I'm working with is 12w7 or 13w7 powered by 1000/1. All ideas and feedback are always appreciated.
Demetrios
swez on 07/6/2006 07:07:47
In live sound, we often employ tri and quad amping technology to get the best performance from high output speaker arrays. Coupled with extensive parametric EQ-ing, this gives the sound engineer team a high degree of "active control" over a venues acoustical characteristics and dynamic changes that change based on a variety of variables. This is pretty much needed in live sound, studio mixing and some high end HT applications.
However, car acoustic variables are not as dynamic. The main variables are road noise and the # of people in the vehicle and resonance factors of various car body materials. Dampen the resonances and reducing road noise help to control the listening environment to a good degree.
Once that has been accounted for, it boils down to accurate speakers, speaker locations, adequate power amplification and careful attention to correcting cancellations and crossover point additive and subtractive couplings. Most of this is done with an RTA, test tones and a well calibrated mike. If we don't have these items on hand, we are flying blind.
All this being said, adding more amplification w/o the diagnostic and sound shaping tools at our disposal, we are just adding more devices to the project and no way to accurately measure the net results. It might be louder, but the human ear adapts to such things. Without diagnostic gear on hand, we don't have a true reference point that is reliable.
Are you willing to go this far in the pursuit of mobile audio nirvana?
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2006 14:50:07
When you are dealing with a stadium-sized sound application and a vehicle-sized application, you get different designs and different results.
Some of the greatest studio monitors use one set of wiring with 3 or 4 way passive crossovers, others use 2..and some of the most expensive towers ($15,000 per pair) use 1 set of wiring...it's all perspective.
In the car audio application, with a good level of road noise, there's just no sense in getting too 'fine-tuned' unless you spend most of your time listening to your car while the engine is turned off.
Also, it'll take quite the trained ear or listening device to match the gains correctly. For that reason, unless you are listeninga lot with the engine off, I'd suggest letting the manufacturer's crossovers do the job.
It's up to you, though.
demetman on 07/7/2006 02:51:13
Mr. Brownstone, way to put things into perspective. Swez, I respect your willing to help help me and anyone through any situation what-so-ever. To answer your question regarding taking all measures to reach audio nirvana, I'm not sure if I am capable of duing so. We have discussed my intended project in past topics and I think you are aware of my basic skill level and willing to learn as much as possible. I have planned ahead and all questions now pertain to the most proper installation techniques for the near future. To refresh my past topic I will be installing a set of a/d/s/ 346cs comps, powered by a JL 450/2 or 300/2, JL 1000/1 pushing a 12w7 or 13w7, Audio Control DQX and most likely a set of strong MB drivers to fill the frequancy gap for a well rounded system. I have been thinking about various equip and net results for months now. I have done a few projects in the past year and thoroughly enjoy the challenge of a proper install. I am all about using the highest quality equipment, wiring etc for this project. I will have several questions as I purchase equip and plan a wiring diagram for this project. I have a great deal of respect for all golds who help people using professional experiences and opinions on this site. Swez, you have been especially helpful to me in times of need. Victor, you are a genious and sometimes monthly donations just don't say enough. Heck, Swez even helped me deal with my wife when my system was a constant headache. Thanks guys I know I can always count on you for professional advice.
Demetrios
swez on 07/7/2006 07:56:09
Thinking this over and planning are great places to start. You have noted some very good gear on the parts list and I believe the A/D/S Comps will give you a very good shot at hitting your target... a strong SQL system. I would run these comps with the included crossovers for now.
I would also ask you to consider a solid pair of MB drivers in the rear compartment of this vehicle. Here, a solid 4 channel amp like the JL 450/4 or a pair of 300/2 amps for these.
As for the sub, consider the 500/1 amp and whatever sub you wish to mate with this bass engine. Frankly, the difference in power and sound you get from a 500/1 or 1000/1 is minimal and the 500/1 is less strain on your electricals too.
Think it over and we'll chat more on this as needed. I have to go for now.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/7/2006 12:51:28
just remember that there is no replacement for speaker placement. if you are going to put more than component speakers in the car, try putting all the speakers up front.
A lot of people get hung up on the specifications and marketing of products, and it's really pretty simple. Aim your speakers properly, then there'll be limited issues with frequency response.
From there, you can worry about circumstantial problems and ideology. Most of the time there's no reason to mess with perfection...but we do it anyway :-)
demetman on 07/9/2006 00:22:31
I agree with your last comment Mr. B. Keeping the sound stage in the front for the best results is often overlooked and ignored. I have never read anything that would contradict this theory, it just makes things a little more difficult when it is time to install.
I will have a sealed enclosure custom built for the W7 sub by one of two JL authorized dealers in my area. I hope to develope a repore at one of these audio shops and purchase the W7 and have the enclosure fabricated according to the accoustical properties of my vehicle. Maybe a custom door pod could be made for a pair of strong MB drivers in the front. The amps will be purchased elsware online for a much better price point. I am looking foreward to the design and installation of this project. As I mentioned before, currently I am working 80hrs per week as a Chef at the Jersey shore and will continue to do so until Labor Day. After that 3 DAYS A WEEK BABY for the rest of the winter. I will have all the time I could wish for to focus on this project. I will take all of your advice and feedback into consideration, drop a big donation to the site and hopefully I can pick your brains later. I'll hit you guys up when questions arise. Thank You!
Demetrios
Demetrios
Replies (9)
Victor on 07/5/2006 22:46:54
theory wise i have read a lot, but never tried it to see the actual results..
wont be able to say a lot here, will surely post some links for u to read but later, right now gotta hurry catch a bus to the next city, attending a friends wedding..
Bye for now..
Victor...
swez on 07/5/2006 22:58:25
Bi-amping is the Cat's pajamas, cleanest way to go and no insertion losses from a passive crossover either. (~1.5dB losses here)
The key is knowing the tweeters power handling ability and what the recommended frequency range would be for the tweeter, w/o a passive crossover. That info would have to come directly from A/D/S.
Also, you'd need to use an active band pass filter network for the woofers. Most gear in this performance range have MB/MR drivers that can go as high as 2.0 - 3.5 KHz. The tweeter does everything above that. Again, knowing the specs on the MB/MR driver and tweeters are needed from the mfg.
The passive networks used by speakers in this class are pretty well engineered to get the most from your Comps. I would doupt the human ear could detect much of an improvement between using the passive crossover VS Bi-amped systems. It's probably more down to bragging rights at this level of components.
Swez
demetman on 07/5/2006 23:32:54
Thank you for the feedback! The manual does state that Bi-amping will produce the highest possible sound quality by allowing the use of the amps level controls to provide an additional level of fine tuning not possible with the tweeter-level switch alone. Since you guys do not believe there will be a noticeable difference in wiring options I will plot a conventional wiring approach for simplicity. I was also wondering if I should use the supplied wires for connections. I believe the wire guage is 16awg and the crossover accepts up tp 14awg wire.
Could I use a Bi-amp configuration using a single 4 channel amp one channel to drive the tweeters and one channel to drive woofers with superior effect? I will gladely request the power handeling and frequancy range for the woofers and tweeters from a/d/s/. I am open to any JL amps to set these comps up. I currently own a 300/2 that i will potentially use to drive a set of edesign EU-700 MB drivers. Any ideas please let me know. The other equip I'm working with is 12w7 or 13w7 powered by 1000/1. All ideas and feedback are always appreciated.
Demetrios
swez on 07/6/2006 07:07:47
In live sound, we often employ tri and quad amping technology to get the best performance from high output speaker arrays. Coupled with extensive parametric EQ-ing, this gives the sound engineer team a high degree of "active control" over a venues acoustical characteristics and dynamic changes that change based on a variety of variables. This is pretty much needed in live sound, studio mixing and some high end HT applications.
However, car acoustic variables are not as dynamic. The main variables are road noise and the # of people in the vehicle and resonance factors of various car body materials. Dampen the resonances and reducing road noise help to control the listening environment to a good degree.
Once that has been accounted for, it boils down to accurate speakers, speaker locations, adequate power amplification and careful attention to correcting cancellations and crossover point additive and subtractive couplings. Most of this is done with an RTA, test tones and a well calibrated mike. If we don't have these items on hand, we are flying blind.
All this being said, adding more amplification w/o the diagnostic and sound shaping tools at our disposal, we are just adding more devices to the project and no way to accurately measure the net results. It might be louder, but the human ear adapts to such things. Without diagnostic gear on hand, we don't have a true reference point that is reliable.
Are you willing to go this far in the pursuit of mobile audio nirvana?
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2006 14:50:07
When you are dealing with a stadium-sized sound application and a vehicle-sized application, you get different designs and different results.
Some of the greatest studio monitors use one set of wiring with 3 or 4 way passive crossovers, others use 2..and some of the most expensive towers ($15,000 per pair) use 1 set of wiring...it's all perspective.
In the car audio application, with a good level of road noise, there's just no sense in getting too 'fine-tuned' unless you spend most of your time listening to your car while the engine is turned off.
Also, it'll take quite the trained ear or listening device to match the gains correctly. For that reason, unless you are listeninga lot with the engine off, I'd suggest letting the manufacturer's crossovers do the job.
It's up to you, though.
demetman on 07/7/2006 02:51:13
Mr. Brownstone, way to put things into perspective. Swez, I respect your willing to help help me and anyone through any situation what-so-ever. To answer your question regarding taking all measures to reach audio nirvana, I'm not sure if I am capable of duing so. We have discussed my intended project in past topics and I think you are aware of my basic skill level and willing to learn as much as possible. I have planned ahead and all questions now pertain to the most proper installation techniques for the near future. To refresh my past topic I will be installing a set of a/d/s/ 346cs comps, powered by a JL 450/2 or 300/2, JL 1000/1 pushing a 12w7 or 13w7, Audio Control DQX and most likely a set of strong MB drivers to fill the frequancy gap for a well rounded system. I have been thinking about various equip and net results for months now. I have done a few projects in the past year and thoroughly enjoy the challenge of a proper install. I am all about using the highest quality equipment, wiring etc for this project. I will have several questions as I purchase equip and plan a wiring diagram for this project. I have a great deal of respect for all golds who help people using professional experiences and opinions on this site. Swez, you have been especially helpful to me in times of need. Victor, you are a genious and sometimes monthly donations just don't say enough. Heck, Swez even helped me deal with my wife when my system was a constant headache. Thanks guys I know I can always count on you for professional advice.
Demetrios
swez on 07/7/2006 07:56:09
Thinking this over and planning are great places to start. You have noted some very good gear on the parts list and I believe the A/D/S Comps will give you a very good shot at hitting your target... a strong SQL system. I would run these comps with the included crossovers for now.
I would also ask you to consider a solid pair of MB drivers in the rear compartment of this vehicle. Here, a solid 4 channel amp like the JL 450/4 or a pair of 300/2 amps for these.
As for the sub, consider the 500/1 amp and whatever sub you wish to mate with this bass engine. Frankly, the difference in power and sound you get from a 500/1 or 1000/1 is minimal and the 500/1 is less strain on your electricals too.
Think it over and we'll chat more on this as needed. I have to go for now.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/7/2006 12:51:28
just remember that there is no replacement for speaker placement. if you are going to put more than component speakers in the car, try putting all the speakers up front.
A lot of people get hung up on the specifications and marketing of products, and it's really pretty simple. Aim your speakers properly, then there'll be limited issues with frequency response.
From there, you can worry about circumstantial problems and ideology. Most of the time there's no reason to mess with perfection...but we do it anyway :-)
demetman on 07/9/2006 00:22:31
I agree with your last comment Mr. B. Keeping the sound stage in the front for the best results is often overlooked and ignored. I have never read anything that would contradict this theory, it just makes things a little more difficult when it is time to install.
I will have a sealed enclosure custom built for the W7 sub by one of two JL authorized dealers in my area. I hope to develope a repore at one of these audio shops and purchase the W7 and have the enclosure fabricated according to the accoustical properties of my vehicle. Maybe a custom door pod could be made for a pair of strong MB drivers in the front. The amps will be purchased elsware online for a much better price point. I am looking foreward to the design and installation of this project. As I mentioned before, currently I am working 80hrs per week as a Chef at the Jersey shore and will continue to do so until Labor Day. After that 3 DAYS A WEEK BABY for the rest of the winter. I will have all the time I could wish for to focus on this project. I will take all of your advice and feedback into consideration, drop a big donation to the site and hopefully I can pick your brains later. I'll hit you guys up when questions arise. Thank You!
Demetrios
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