Ok so for the past few months I have been having a little issue with my Kicker KX600.1 amp. A few months ago I noticed that the amp would click off after a a few minutes of use, then it would turn back on and be fine a few weeks, then it would do it again. So I figured that maybe the setting were set to high, so I adjusted them, but still the samething. My next thought was maybe it is over heating because it is summer, so I put a fan on it , and still nothing. Well flash forward to yesterday morning. I get in my car start driving, amp is fine, then out of the clear blue my sub stops working. I figured it would come back on in a few seconds, but to my surprise it didnt turn back on at all.
I get home to see if maybe there is a loose wire somewhere, but nothing still dead . Next I unplug the sub and remote wire to see if maybe the wires were bad, nothing, but I did notice something odd. On the side of the amp there is 2 LEDS one green and one red that light up when the amp is hooked up, on, and powered properly. I noticed that if I unhook the sub and hook the remote wire up, the Red LED lights up faintly then goes out. I have no clue what could have happened. Today Im going to take it all apart to check all my wires and test the amp, but before I do that I was wondering if anyone could chime in and help me out with what could possibly be wrong? Oh this amp was made in 2002 and has a12" Eclipse 8122DVC Aluminum hooked up to it and has 0 gauge wire. I already checked all the fuses on the amp and the main lead fuse and they are fine.
I tested all the voltage from the battery and I keep getting 14.4 volts everytime. Now I also have a brand new Battery as well. Im not sure what could be the issue with this. One day its fine the next it craps out. Please someone help
Thanks
Matt
Replies (41)
Victor on 05/2/2006 05:29:11
14.4 v to be precise... thats strange... and 0 guage wire for a 600 wrms amp... thats strange too..
ttocs on 05/2/2006 11:28:08
test the voltage at the amp and it should be the same.. I would check your ground as well. Make sure you have scrapped the paint off of the point where it is grounded.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 15:29:40
The reason I'm using 0 gauge is because the amp I was going ot use was much much bigger, but I changed my mind after I had run all the wires. So instead of rerunning a smaller gauge wire I just left it there and used the 0 gauge. Yup, I couldnt beleive it myself, I dont know if maybe my meter is off or what not, but directly at the battery terminals I get a reading of 14.4 almost everytime, which really weird because it shouldnt be that high. I'm going to check the grounding again, but the amp was working for months before this happened
Victor on 05/2/2006 15:59:10
Looks like the speaker wires are getting short somewhere , check the integrity of the wires , the amp cud be going in protection mode and shutting down, also check the gain settings, they shud be equal to the voltage of the RCA outs of your HU.
Victor..
ttocs on 05/2/2006 16:31:23
I disagree that the speaker wires would cause this since it happens with the speakers disconnected.
the alternator charges around 13-14.5 volts normally, and your battery with the engine off should be 12-13v. Having a couple of extra volts on the battery would probably help the amp, not hurt it.
Again, test the voltage at the amp of both pwr and remote turn on.
If everything checks out then try gently moving or pulling on the wires at the deck and at the amp to see if you can get the problem to happen again.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 20:03:01
Ok I just triple checked all my connection and retested everything. With the wires unhooked from the amp, Im getting 14.4 and 14.2 volts on my meter, when I hooked the power, ground, and remote wire into the amp and test the screws where they connect to, I couldnt get a staight reading all it did is jump around. Then I REDID my grounding line. It is only 10" long and I sanded the paint off of the location until it was shinny metal. I also tested the remote wire and I get 11.97+ volts when hooked up to the amp. Now I have the sub wired for 2 ohm and when I tested the speaker out put WITHOUT the sub on it, my meter read 2 ohms. So I'm not sure what else I can do. I just think it is strange that one day it shuts off and wont turn back on. I have had this amp for 3 years total so I know there is no warranty on it and Kicker wants over $100 just to look at it plus shipping. So I hope someone out there has had this problem with this amp or a similar Class D amp and is willing to help me out here. Thanks for the help so far, please keep it coming. :)Oh Im have some electrical experience in solding and what not, so Im not to affraid to so things like that if need be
Ash on 05/2/2006 20:23:49
Where was the amp mounted?
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 20:36:40
In side the trunk/hatch, Nice and open, not direct sunlight, open space for it to breath. Here is a picture of what the Tiburon trunk looks like
Ash on 05/2/2006 22:32:59
Couldn't follow that link.
What I'm really asking was the amp mounted on the sub box or any other surface that may have vibrated. It is possible to loosen the internals in a amp when mounted that way.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 23:31:23
Oh Im sorry, I had it bolted to the trunk floor and the sub next to it.
ttocs on 05/3/2006 02:22:22
now that you have it all taken apart I couldn't tell you were to start lookin other then maybe for a good local tech. We have one at our shop that seems to be able to fix anything.... Live near phoenix?
sup2jzgte on 05/3/2006 02:46:26
UMMMM I live about 2000 miles away on the east coast :)
swez on 05/3/2006 11:04:50
When you tested the voltage at the amp, you say the meter readings jumped around a lot? That would lead me to think you have a power supply problem in this amp.
I would remove the PC board from the amp and look very carefully for charred components, blown out circuit traces and deformed power supply caps. The power supply is the largest section on the board. It will have a large torroid transformer, several filtering and storage caps. Look for loose components, discolorations on the board, (indicating excess heat) and cold solder joints.
Focus on those areas first and get back to us on your findings.
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/3/2006 11:44:25
Ok I have taken some pictures of the amp. I hope these links work
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/frontboard2.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/bottomofboard2.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/bottomofboard.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/frontboard.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/3cbcd91a.jpg
Im going to start my search on the side with all the CAPS on it. i did find a resistor that had some black marks on the solder joints, but the issue is I cant find the value of the resistor, because the lines blend with the color of the resistor. I circled it in one of the pictures. Do you think that would make the resistor would kill the amp?
Yes When I hooked ground, remote and power wire up to the amp, minus the sub, when I put the multi meter leads to the + and - of the amp while it was hooked up, I couldnt get a reading from it. When I unhooked the wires from the amp and tested them, I got a normal 14.2-14.4 volts. Well I'm off to start my search. Thank you for the help so far, please keep it coming :)
swez on 05/3/2006 12:18:48
OK, I cannot see any obvious places on the pics that show any major disturbances. This board seems to have 3 separate power supplies. (The torroid and cap arrays indicate this)
One is your main output supply, another is preamp input and the 3rd is probably a driver power supply for the power transistors.
One thing I do note here, this board has a secondary board attached to the main board. (far left of board as we see in the last pic) There are a few screws that hold it in place and this board should be released from the main board and looke at more carefully as well. Look at the interconnects used between the the main and daughter boards. Are they making good connections???
Finally, since this is pretty much a hybrid board design, (surface mount chips, resistors and chip caps) There are few user servicable things you can do w/o ellaborate test equipment and bench tools. Signal tracing, power feed tracing and other diagnostics are best done by Kicker Techs. They have the test gear needed to diagnose all major sections of this board design. This is a very well designed board and layout. However, component level diagnostics are not for the untrained.
Swez
PS That fee mentioned is probably to cover a complete board swap in this amp. I doubt they will bench test the board, repair and return same to you for that fee. This means a quick turnaround time and a fresh main board w/ components. Basically, you'll have a brand new amp with all factory specs of the original. Perhaps you can call Kicker again and ask how they handle issues such as yours. Find out what the max price of the repair would be. Based on their answers, you'll have a better idea on what to do next.
sup2jzgte on 05/4/2006 18:29:53
Ok here is the update. I contacted Kicker about specifics on the repairs, It is $90 + shipping each way IF the board is not fried. Im not to sure if the board is fried or not. I have looked this over with a magnifing glass (literally) and I cant see any burn marks what so ever anywhere on either boards. The only things that I have noticed is that there is a line of 4 resistors on the small board with gain, x-over and Bass knobs and one of them is sticking up in the air where as the other 3 are flush to the board, so Im not sure if this amp has been repaired before I got it or not. Now I also noticed the resistor that I circled in the previous pictures posted, but other than that I have not noticed anything odd. Oh and there is some glue on one out of 2 of the caps next to the Remote, Ground, Power connections, but I dont think that means much of anything. Now there is different models of the main transistors, which also leads me to believe that this Amp may have been repaired before, but again I really dont know. I also asked about getting the schematic for it and I was told since it is the 2002 version I can purchase it for $5 from them. I asked him how detailed the schematic is and I he told me it gives me all the info on each part, which more than I was told by past Kicker employees, but that is another story. Do you think getting the schematic will help any? Also I forgot to add I got this amp from a friend back in 2002. I cant ask him if he had it fixed before, because he passed last year and that is why I would like to fix it if possible.
swez on 05/5/2006 15:14:23
The goop around the caps and coils are usually there to hold them securely in place. It's probably hot glue and helps keep things in place, despite all the vibrations, etc. (Normal thing on car amps)
The resistor that is standing up, that's called "tombstoning" It's probably been that way since the board was made originally. This was a common problem with small, surface mount components in poorly set up reflow systems. (Not a likely root of the problem thought)
OK, say you get a schematic... then what? Yes, you can test transistors with an ohm meter. Same with torroids, electrolytic caps, the power diode and maybe do some signal/voltage traces. But, if it's an IC chip, that's a bit more than most can do w/o an IC chip tester.
Somehow, I am leaning toward a power supply problem here. The fact you could not get a steady voltage reading off the amp lugs with power leads attached, is a big part of the equation. That would indicate very leaky electrolytic caps, bad switching transistors in the power supply or a damaged transformer. That diode in the supply is also something to remove and test.
The likely culprits I would test first, are the switching transistors. (Probably high speed Mosfets) They would have to be removed, identified in a catalog as to which leads are Base, Emitter and Collector and then tested individually. If you are good with a soldering pencil and know how to test Mosfets with an ohmeter, that's where I would start first.
What say you?
Swez
PS If the REMote turn on chip or circuit has a problem, the amp will not fire up too. That would be a good place to look and trace power along its pathways.
PSS Sorry to hear about your friend passing. That's got to be a tough loss to his family and friends.
sup2jzgte on 05/6/2006 23:11:24
Yeah he had cancer so we all knew it was coming, but it was hard none the less. You are about the 100000000 person that has told me it is probably the fast recovery diodes or the transistors, so I guess Im going to have to taken them out and see what the deal is. I have a diode and transistor tester, so I shouldnt have an issue in testing them. Do you know where I would look for the remote turn on chip would be? I traced it and it goes to the bottom side of the board and all there is there is 2 resistors, 2 caps and thats about it, but then again I maybe looking in the wrong place. I just ordered 8 IRF3205 (transistors) and Im in the process of locating some YG225D2 Fast recovery Diodes, just in case it happens to be one of them. IRF3205 was easy to find, but YG225D2 is proving to VERY VERY hard to find.
Victor on 05/7/2006 01:30:08
I would have removed the amp and bench tested it once before opening it up.
I wouldnt have concluded that something is wrong in the internals of the amp without bench testing it..
This is my point of view..
Victor..
sup2jzgte on 05/7/2006 01:43:45
Sorry forgot to add that I did bench test it, sorry my fault. I tested it with this supply http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103960&cp=&origkw=power+supply&kw=power+supply&parentPage=search
The samething happened, when I powered it up the lights (power, protect) came on VERY VERY dimmly then went out and this was the last time it ever powered on. So after that I decided that it is something inside the amp.
swez on 05/7/2006 08:16:00
I'd have to agree. Think you are on the right track with the transistors and diodes too. Most amps I have worked on, had blown output transistors.
Very old amps, (8-10 years or more) can have leaky Electrolytic caps in the power supply. They usually die very slowly. These can be tested with an ohmeter too. They start with a high ohmic value and slowly drop in resistance if leaky. If good, they charge quickly and the meter goes rapidly from high to low ohmic readings.
As for tracing the remote turn on circuit, it's probably a very simple circuit. Like you say, a few filter caps, resistors and an IC chip or transistor. This is a low voltage, low current circuit too. Probably only needs a few volts to turn on that part of the system. Since the amp does show some signs of life, try lifting the remote feed off the powered up amp. If the amp goes dead, the rem is probably OK.
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 09:41:47
Wow this is amazing. I have 2 componets bokers looking for me, but neither me nor them can find the Fast Recovery Diode YG225D2. So if anyone has a connection to the Black Market parts department, please fill me in :)
Here is an update so far. I have tested the Hexfets IRF3205 Transistors while they are in the board and all tests were done Gate to Source, and on all 6 I get the same reading of 46.8 volts, and according to the data sheets for these they are supposed to be 55V. Now here is a question I have for you guys. In the manual for my multimeter it tells me to put the meter on OHM setting to test Mosfets, does that seem correct to you guys? Here is a link to the meter I have http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104750&cp=&origkw=multimeters&kw=multimeters&parentPage=search
So when get home from work I'm going to take out the Transistors and test them out of the board and see what kind of results I get. Now I'm off to try and hunt down these damn diodes :)
swez on 05/8/2006 10:17:54
Test the diodes first. If your meter indicates a short or open diode, then contact Kicker and buy them there.
Yes, when testing MFET's you use an ohmeter. Although the MFETS may be rated for 55V, they often operate below that voltage.
Testing FETS:
http://www.bcae1.com/tranfet.htm
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 10:28:12
I already called Kicker and they told me that they wont sell any parts. Which is total BS if you ask me.
swez on 05/8/2006 10:52:41
Can you get a cross ref on the part numbers and try NTE or other diode makers? Any specs on these diodes available?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 14:25:56
NTE is a no go, I have checked Partminer, Mouser, Allied, Digikey, Fuji,Partsexpress and numerous others. The only one so far that has had them is Fuji who is the manufacturer of them, but they have a minium order of $100, which would give me about 300 of them or so. Well I only need 2 not 300, I have no clue what I would do with 300 Diodes. I couldnt sell them for profit, because I dont think there is that much of a demand for something like this. Here is the specs on it
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/datasheet_Page_1.jpg
Victor on 05/8/2006 15:57:39
tell them u wanna buy diodes worth $ 1000, ask them to do some sampling, make a list of 5 different diodes and include the one u want too, , tell them u require 5 piece of each for sampling and that you will place the order once ur techs test those.. Tell them you do not mind paying for the sampling and shipping charges for the same,
You should be getting those in a weeks time..
Victor...GRIN
Make a new free yahoo, hotmail or anyother account in the name of
VictorElectronics and use that account ot mail them, give ur residence address as your correspondence address ( HR office of Victor Electronics )..GRIN GRIN GRIN
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 16:49:31
You are a smart but evil man all at the same time, but I LIKE IT :) I shall try that. The only company I cant do that do is Fuji, they said they dont do samples. I'm going to try that :) thanks
sup2jzgte on 05/9/2006 12:50:31
Ok guys, I have finally found some time to try and test the FRD, but I have hit a brick wall....How would I go about testing these? When I set my Meter to Diode testing and I Gate (pos lead) to Source(neg lead) I get a reading of 0.737, but Im not sure if Im testing this right.
Victor on 05/9/2006 15:14:14
Smart yeah.,... but evil NO... hehe.. actually, this is a business mind i hold over my shoulders, one has to be a bit shrewd to survive in this Car Audio market in india..
2 years of learning and 3 years of professional consultancy and continous research and experience teachs you to use such smart tac tics to make ends meet...
I had 3M india do up a full sound and vibration damping job on a honda CRV as a sample at distributor rates, all labour was arranged by them too....GRIN, GRIN... Though gave them considerable business later..
I have noticed that such trick usually work with most of the companies..
Wish you luck, i hope you find that thingy...
Victor...
swez on 05/9/2006 18:51:29
OK, I was going to suggest Engineering samples as well. However, to get them from Fuji, you'll need to contact one of their sales engineers in your region. The trick is to be honest, persistant and ask for a favor... not trick them into thinking you are building something with "X" potential.
I used to work for TDK and had lots of clients who requested samples. Some were real potentials and we did supply kits they often could by and try. Other times, I needed samples from my clients and they always came through... just ask the right peeps.
Testing the diode is easy. Use the Ohmeter on 10X scale. In one polarity, you will get a resistance number. Then, reverse your leads and read again. You should get Infinite ohms like an open circuit. If you get any ohmic number, the diode junction is breached to some degree of a short. You'll need to lift one leg of the diode off the board to test it correctly. This means you test only the diode and not other circuits that feed in and out of same.
Also, if you cannot find that exact diode spec, (I could not read the doc you posted) the same or higher voltage is OK, as is current passing ability. Diodes act like a one way switch. The allow current to flow in one direction, but block current flow in the reverse direction.
Got all that?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/9/2006 20:44:59
HMMM you couldnt read the file, thats odd? Here are the specs of it
Absolute Maximum Ratings
Repetitve Peak Reverse Voltage (Vrrm) Rating 200V
Non-Repetitive Peak Reverse Voltage(Vrsm) Rating 250V
Isolating Voltage (Viso) Terminals-To-Case,AC.1min 1500v
Average Output Current (IO) Square Wave,duty=1/2,TC 95c 10*A
Surge Current (IFSM) Sine Wave 10ms 70A
Operating Junction Tempature (Tj) +150 C
Electrical Characteristics
Forward Voltage Drop** (Vfm) Ifm=2.5A Max(1.3v)
Reverse Current** (Irrm) Vr=Vrrm Max (50uf)
Reverse Recovery Time (trr) If=0.1a, Ir=0.1a, Irec=0.01a Max(0.4us)
**=rating per element
*= Average Forward Current of Centertrap Full Wave connection
Ok those are the specs directly off of the specs sheet. I'm not sure what you mean by a 10x scale? Im not sure if my meter can do a 10x? I understand about the polarity difference, but what legs should I be testing? This diode looks like a Mosfet and has 3 legs, which Im pretty sure you knew already, because you know your stuff :), but I just wanted to be sure.
Im going to post the doc link again, because I redid it. If you see the picture click on it and it will enlarge :)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/datasheet_Page_1.jpg
swez on 05/10/2006 10:37:03
This one may work for your application: MUR1620CT:
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MUR1620CT
Specs:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MUR1620CT-D.PDF
This is a common cathode, dual channel, fast recovery diode in a T220AB package.
To test this package, pin 1 & 3 are anodes. Pin 2 is a common cathode. The 10X on meter = 10 ohms max scales. Here, you test meter values between pins 1 & 2, then reverse polarity of probes. Repeat same process between pins 2 & 3. Then reverse polarity of probes.
Here's a testing method to use:
http://www.the12volt.com/diodes/diodes.asp
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/10/2006 14:24:35
Dude YOU ROCK :) I cant open the pages from work, because these work PC's are super crappy, but I'm heading home in like a half hour so I will then. I will post the results :)
sup2jzgte on 05/10/2006 17:40:45
I have a question about the MUR1620CT. I was comparing the specs of the YG225D2 and MUR1620CT and some of it matches but I'm not sure what the most important specs are in the 2. I noticed that the MUR is rated at 8 amps and the YG is rated for 10amps and some other specs match or are higher rated. Now if I'm not mistaken is isnt bad to have the max ratings higher than the normal rating. Most of the specs on the MUR are higher than the specs on the YG, the only thing that is rated lower is the AMPS, so would that matter?
swez on 05/11/2006 11:04:01
That was my same question as I looked for possible crosses. I don't know if this amp needs more than 8A's per leg on these fast recovery diodes??? The Fuji may be spec'd at 10A's per leg, but may not need that extra amperage flow.
Unfortunately, the only people that know that answer, would be the design engineers at Kicker. I doubt you'll get access to them, but it's worth a try.
However, test the diodes you have in there now. Until you know they are bad, there's no point in spinning wheels to replace something that still is in working order. Cross that bridge, when you get there. (Diode bridge that is) GRIN
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/11/2006 16:07:17
Ok here is what i found, not sure if the diode is good or bad, because I dont know what to look for.
Pins
1 2 3
Pos Neg
.378
1 2 3
Neg Pos
.865
1 2 3
Pos Neg
.380
1 2 3
Neg Pos
0.0 (meter started at 300 and went up until it reset)
Ok now these tests where done with them fully connected to the board. I tried to desolder them and for some reason I cant get them out. I have tried multiple watts on my soldering Gun and No matter how high I put it I still cant get them fully unsoldered. I got ALL visible solder removed, but I cant get it all. Any Ideas? Oh I found the YG225D2 FINALLY!!! I hope this is the problem :)
sup2jzgte on 05/11/2006 16:11:31
Ok that pin lay out didnt work :)
Ok so I will try this
Pin 1 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) Reading was .378
Pin1 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) Reading was .805
Pin 2 (Pos) Pin3 (neg) Reading Was .380
Pin2 (neg) Pin 3 (pos) Reading was 0.0 (The meter started at 300 and went until it reset)
swez on 05/11/2006 20:59:05
They (the pins) might be crimped over at the under side of the board and therefore, hard to remove. Do you have some solder wick? (flat copper braid wire to soak up the old solder?) Highly recommended.
Automatic incertion machines will often have a crimping function to keep the component in place before they hit the solder reflow system. Also, many of the newer boards are using high temp, lead free (no Pb) solders. It might be a 95/5 alloy, (Sn/Ag) Tin and silver. This alloy has a much higher melting point. Hense, a stronger soldering tool. (2 stage gun)
PIN Test:
Pin 1 & 3 are Cathodes. Pin 2 and heat sink are common anodes. We test dual junction transistors as followed:
1. Pin 1 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) = some ohmic value (***)
2. Pin 1 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) = no ohmic value or infinite (open circuit)
3. Pin 3 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) = same ohmic value as (***)
4. Pin 3 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) = infinite
If you get any resistance readings on steps 2 & 4, the diode junction has been damaged.... replace component.
NOTE: To get proper readings, the device needs to be removed from the board. If you try this test while connected, results will not be conclusive.
So, found some of the Fuji diodes eh? Great! Just take great care when de-soldering and removal of old devices. If you mess up the board traces or soldering pads, will have to use jumper wires. This is a real pain. Remeber these tips:
1. Use solder wick (rest braid over solder joint and heat braid until it sucks up most or the solder on that pad)
2. Use proper soldering tool (heat range)
3. Look for crimped legs of the component on the back side of the board, bent tabs may look like this... (< ^ >) or (_ ^ _)
Got all that?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/13/2006 01:47:52
ok I have bent the tabs out, tried 3 different soldering irons including this one.
http://www.iso-tip.com/html/butane_models.htm (the one in the middle)
I would figure 750 degrees would be enough, but I still cant get the part out. I have soldered and desolders 1000 of things, but this little SOB is giving me a headache. Do you think I need to move up to a 1000 degrees? I cant imagine that they would do that.
There is NO solder in the board at all it is all over my braid. I mean I can see right through part of the hole, but the damn thing still wont come out
swez on 05/14/2006 11:10:14
Yes, I do understand the situation. Seems like you have adequate heat to remove solder and if it's wicking up on the braid, that's a good sign too.
The problem here, is thay you have to heat 3 legs at the same time to get them free. Then with a set of long-nosed visegrips, grab the heat sink and gently heat and rock the component until each leg is free. Appliy just enough force to lift each leg, but not so much as to crack the PC board.
A hot knife is often used to heat larger areas and multiple solder joints at once. These are expensive, but if you plan to do a lot of board level repairs in time, this is the tool to have on hand for multi-pin devices.
http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/102135.0/CategoryID/19500.0/SubCatID/8850.0/file.htm
Tool:
http://www.toolsource.com/ost/product.asp?sourceid=googlevisegrip&dept%5Fid=500&pf%5Fid=51699&mscssid=RCVPXJTTD61V9N9JTX156C8LAF9R6PA3
Swez
PS You may try heating the 3 legs and pushing them into the board enough to snip off the crimped legs. That should free the little sucker too.
I get home to see if maybe there is a loose wire somewhere, but nothing still dead . Next I unplug the sub and remote wire to see if maybe the wires were bad, nothing, but I did notice something odd. On the side of the amp there is 2 LEDS one green and one red that light up when the amp is hooked up, on, and powered properly. I noticed that if I unhook the sub and hook the remote wire up, the Red LED lights up faintly then goes out. I have no clue what could have happened. Today Im going to take it all apart to check all my wires and test the amp, but before I do that I was wondering if anyone could chime in and help me out with what could possibly be wrong? Oh this amp was made in 2002 and has a12" Eclipse 8122DVC Aluminum hooked up to it and has 0 gauge wire. I already checked all the fuses on the amp and the main lead fuse and they are fine.
I tested all the voltage from the battery and I keep getting 14.4 volts everytime. Now I also have a brand new Battery as well. Im not sure what could be the issue with this. One day its fine the next it craps out. Please someone help
Thanks
Matt
Replies (41)
Victor on 05/2/2006 05:29:11
14.4 v to be precise... thats strange... and 0 guage wire for a 600 wrms amp... thats strange too..
ttocs on 05/2/2006 11:28:08
test the voltage at the amp and it should be the same.. I would check your ground as well. Make sure you have scrapped the paint off of the point where it is grounded.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 15:29:40
The reason I'm using 0 gauge is because the amp I was going ot use was much much bigger, but I changed my mind after I had run all the wires. So instead of rerunning a smaller gauge wire I just left it there and used the 0 gauge. Yup, I couldnt beleive it myself, I dont know if maybe my meter is off or what not, but directly at the battery terminals I get a reading of 14.4 almost everytime, which really weird because it shouldnt be that high. I'm going to check the grounding again, but the amp was working for months before this happened
Victor on 05/2/2006 15:59:10
Looks like the speaker wires are getting short somewhere , check the integrity of the wires , the amp cud be going in protection mode and shutting down, also check the gain settings, they shud be equal to the voltage of the RCA outs of your HU.
Victor..
ttocs on 05/2/2006 16:31:23
I disagree that the speaker wires would cause this since it happens with the speakers disconnected.
the alternator charges around 13-14.5 volts normally, and your battery with the engine off should be 12-13v. Having a couple of extra volts on the battery would probably help the amp, not hurt it.
Again, test the voltage at the amp of both pwr and remote turn on.
If everything checks out then try gently moving or pulling on the wires at the deck and at the amp to see if you can get the problem to happen again.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 20:03:01
Ok I just triple checked all my connection and retested everything. With the wires unhooked from the amp, Im getting 14.4 and 14.2 volts on my meter, when I hooked the power, ground, and remote wire into the amp and test the screws where they connect to, I couldnt get a staight reading all it did is jump around. Then I REDID my grounding line. It is only 10" long and I sanded the paint off of the location until it was shinny metal. I also tested the remote wire and I get 11.97+ volts when hooked up to the amp. Now I have the sub wired for 2 ohm and when I tested the speaker out put WITHOUT the sub on it, my meter read 2 ohms. So I'm not sure what else I can do. I just think it is strange that one day it shuts off and wont turn back on. I have had this amp for 3 years total so I know there is no warranty on it and Kicker wants over $100 just to look at it plus shipping. So I hope someone out there has had this problem with this amp or a similar Class D amp and is willing to help me out here. Thanks for the help so far, please keep it coming. :)Oh Im have some electrical experience in solding and what not, so Im not to affraid to so things like that if need be
Ash on 05/2/2006 20:23:49
Where was the amp mounted?
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 20:36:40
In side the trunk/hatch, Nice and open, not direct sunlight, open space for it to breath. Here is a picture of what the Tiburon trunk looks like
Ash on 05/2/2006 22:32:59
Couldn't follow that link.
What I'm really asking was the amp mounted on the sub box or any other surface that may have vibrated. It is possible to loosen the internals in a amp when mounted that way.
sup2jzgte on 05/2/2006 23:31:23
Oh Im sorry, I had it bolted to the trunk floor and the sub next to it.
ttocs on 05/3/2006 02:22:22
now that you have it all taken apart I couldn't tell you were to start lookin other then maybe for a good local tech. We have one at our shop that seems to be able to fix anything.... Live near phoenix?
sup2jzgte on 05/3/2006 02:46:26
UMMMM I live about 2000 miles away on the east coast :)
swez on 05/3/2006 11:04:50
When you tested the voltage at the amp, you say the meter readings jumped around a lot? That would lead me to think you have a power supply problem in this amp.
I would remove the PC board from the amp and look very carefully for charred components, blown out circuit traces and deformed power supply caps. The power supply is the largest section on the board. It will have a large torroid transformer, several filtering and storage caps. Look for loose components, discolorations on the board, (indicating excess heat) and cold solder joints.
Focus on those areas first and get back to us on your findings.
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/3/2006 11:44:25
Ok I have taken some pictures of the amp. I hope these links work
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/frontboard2.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/bottomofboard2.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/bottomofboard.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/frontboard.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/3cbcd91a.jpg
Im going to start my search on the side with all the CAPS on it. i did find a resistor that had some black marks on the solder joints, but the issue is I cant find the value of the resistor, because the lines blend with the color of the resistor. I circled it in one of the pictures. Do you think that would make the resistor would kill the amp?
Yes When I hooked ground, remote and power wire up to the amp, minus the sub, when I put the multi meter leads to the + and - of the amp while it was hooked up, I couldnt get a reading from it. When I unhooked the wires from the amp and tested them, I got a normal 14.2-14.4 volts. Well I'm off to start my search. Thank you for the help so far, please keep it coming :)
swez on 05/3/2006 12:18:48
OK, I cannot see any obvious places on the pics that show any major disturbances. This board seems to have 3 separate power supplies. (The torroid and cap arrays indicate this)
One is your main output supply, another is preamp input and the 3rd is probably a driver power supply for the power transistors.
One thing I do note here, this board has a secondary board attached to the main board. (far left of board as we see in the last pic) There are a few screws that hold it in place and this board should be released from the main board and looke at more carefully as well. Look at the interconnects used between the the main and daughter boards. Are they making good connections???
Finally, since this is pretty much a hybrid board design, (surface mount chips, resistors and chip caps) There are few user servicable things you can do w/o ellaborate test equipment and bench tools. Signal tracing, power feed tracing and other diagnostics are best done by Kicker Techs. They have the test gear needed to diagnose all major sections of this board design. This is a very well designed board and layout. However, component level diagnostics are not for the untrained.
Swez
PS That fee mentioned is probably to cover a complete board swap in this amp. I doubt they will bench test the board, repair and return same to you for that fee. This means a quick turnaround time and a fresh main board w/ components. Basically, you'll have a brand new amp with all factory specs of the original. Perhaps you can call Kicker again and ask how they handle issues such as yours. Find out what the max price of the repair would be. Based on their answers, you'll have a better idea on what to do next.
sup2jzgte on 05/4/2006 18:29:53
Ok here is the update. I contacted Kicker about specifics on the repairs, It is $90 + shipping each way IF the board is not fried. Im not to sure if the board is fried or not. I have looked this over with a magnifing glass (literally) and I cant see any burn marks what so ever anywhere on either boards. The only things that I have noticed is that there is a line of 4 resistors on the small board with gain, x-over and Bass knobs and one of them is sticking up in the air where as the other 3 are flush to the board, so Im not sure if this amp has been repaired before I got it or not. Now I also noticed the resistor that I circled in the previous pictures posted, but other than that I have not noticed anything odd. Oh and there is some glue on one out of 2 of the caps next to the Remote, Ground, Power connections, but I dont think that means much of anything. Now there is different models of the main transistors, which also leads me to believe that this Amp may have been repaired before, but again I really dont know. I also asked about getting the schematic for it and I was told since it is the 2002 version I can purchase it for $5 from them. I asked him how detailed the schematic is and I he told me it gives me all the info on each part, which more than I was told by past Kicker employees, but that is another story. Do you think getting the schematic will help any? Also I forgot to add I got this amp from a friend back in 2002. I cant ask him if he had it fixed before, because he passed last year and that is why I would like to fix it if possible.
swez on 05/5/2006 15:14:23
The goop around the caps and coils are usually there to hold them securely in place. It's probably hot glue and helps keep things in place, despite all the vibrations, etc. (Normal thing on car amps)
The resistor that is standing up, that's called "tombstoning" It's probably been that way since the board was made originally. This was a common problem with small, surface mount components in poorly set up reflow systems. (Not a likely root of the problem thought)
OK, say you get a schematic... then what? Yes, you can test transistors with an ohm meter. Same with torroids, electrolytic caps, the power diode and maybe do some signal/voltage traces. But, if it's an IC chip, that's a bit more than most can do w/o an IC chip tester.
Somehow, I am leaning toward a power supply problem here. The fact you could not get a steady voltage reading off the amp lugs with power leads attached, is a big part of the equation. That would indicate very leaky electrolytic caps, bad switching transistors in the power supply or a damaged transformer. That diode in the supply is also something to remove and test.
The likely culprits I would test first, are the switching transistors. (Probably high speed Mosfets) They would have to be removed, identified in a catalog as to which leads are Base, Emitter and Collector and then tested individually. If you are good with a soldering pencil and know how to test Mosfets with an ohmeter, that's where I would start first.
What say you?
Swez
PS If the REMote turn on chip or circuit has a problem, the amp will not fire up too. That would be a good place to look and trace power along its pathways.
PSS Sorry to hear about your friend passing. That's got to be a tough loss to his family and friends.
sup2jzgte on 05/6/2006 23:11:24
Yeah he had cancer so we all knew it was coming, but it was hard none the less. You are about the 100000000 person that has told me it is probably the fast recovery diodes or the transistors, so I guess Im going to have to taken them out and see what the deal is. I have a diode and transistor tester, so I shouldnt have an issue in testing them. Do you know where I would look for the remote turn on chip would be? I traced it and it goes to the bottom side of the board and all there is there is 2 resistors, 2 caps and thats about it, but then again I maybe looking in the wrong place. I just ordered 8 IRF3205 (transistors) and Im in the process of locating some YG225D2 Fast recovery Diodes, just in case it happens to be one of them. IRF3205 was easy to find, but YG225D2 is proving to VERY VERY hard to find.
Victor on 05/7/2006 01:30:08
I would have removed the amp and bench tested it once before opening it up.
I wouldnt have concluded that something is wrong in the internals of the amp without bench testing it..
This is my point of view..
Victor..
sup2jzgte on 05/7/2006 01:43:45
Sorry forgot to add that I did bench test it, sorry my fault. I tested it with this supply http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103960&cp=&origkw=power+supply&kw=power+supply&parentPage=search
The samething happened, when I powered it up the lights (power, protect) came on VERY VERY dimmly then went out and this was the last time it ever powered on. So after that I decided that it is something inside the amp.
swez on 05/7/2006 08:16:00
I'd have to agree. Think you are on the right track with the transistors and diodes too. Most amps I have worked on, had blown output transistors.
Very old amps, (8-10 years or more) can have leaky Electrolytic caps in the power supply. They usually die very slowly. These can be tested with an ohmeter too. They start with a high ohmic value and slowly drop in resistance if leaky. If good, they charge quickly and the meter goes rapidly from high to low ohmic readings.
As for tracing the remote turn on circuit, it's probably a very simple circuit. Like you say, a few filter caps, resistors and an IC chip or transistor. This is a low voltage, low current circuit too. Probably only needs a few volts to turn on that part of the system. Since the amp does show some signs of life, try lifting the remote feed off the powered up amp. If the amp goes dead, the rem is probably OK.
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 09:41:47
Wow this is amazing. I have 2 componets bokers looking for me, but neither me nor them can find the Fast Recovery Diode YG225D2. So if anyone has a connection to the Black Market parts department, please fill me in :)
Here is an update so far. I have tested the Hexfets IRF3205 Transistors while they are in the board and all tests were done Gate to Source, and on all 6 I get the same reading of 46.8 volts, and according to the data sheets for these they are supposed to be 55V. Now here is a question I have for you guys. In the manual for my multimeter it tells me to put the meter on OHM setting to test Mosfets, does that seem correct to you guys? Here is a link to the meter I have http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104750&cp=&origkw=multimeters&kw=multimeters&parentPage=search
So when get home from work I'm going to take out the Transistors and test them out of the board and see what kind of results I get. Now I'm off to try and hunt down these damn diodes :)
swez on 05/8/2006 10:17:54
Test the diodes first. If your meter indicates a short or open diode, then contact Kicker and buy them there.
Yes, when testing MFET's you use an ohmeter. Although the MFETS may be rated for 55V, they often operate below that voltage.
Testing FETS:
http://www.bcae1.com/tranfet.htm
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 10:28:12
I already called Kicker and they told me that they wont sell any parts. Which is total BS if you ask me.
swez on 05/8/2006 10:52:41
Can you get a cross ref on the part numbers and try NTE or other diode makers? Any specs on these diodes available?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 14:25:56
NTE is a no go, I have checked Partminer, Mouser, Allied, Digikey, Fuji,Partsexpress and numerous others. The only one so far that has had them is Fuji who is the manufacturer of them, but they have a minium order of $100, which would give me about 300 of them or so. Well I only need 2 not 300, I have no clue what I would do with 300 Diodes. I couldnt sell them for profit, because I dont think there is that much of a demand for something like this. Here is the specs on it
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/datasheet_Page_1.jpg
Victor on 05/8/2006 15:57:39
tell them u wanna buy diodes worth $ 1000, ask them to do some sampling, make a list of 5 different diodes and include the one u want too, , tell them u require 5 piece of each for sampling and that you will place the order once ur techs test those.. Tell them you do not mind paying for the sampling and shipping charges for the same,
You should be getting those in a weeks time..
Victor...GRIN
Make a new free yahoo, hotmail or anyother account in the name of
VictorElectronics and use that account ot mail them, give ur residence address as your correspondence address ( HR office of Victor Electronics )..GRIN GRIN GRIN
sup2jzgte on 05/8/2006 16:49:31
You are a smart but evil man all at the same time, but I LIKE IT :) I shall try that. The only company I cant do that do is Fuji, they said they dont do samples. I'm going to try that :) thanks
sup2jzgte on 05/9/2006 12:50:31
Ok guys, I have finally found some time to try and test the FRD, but I have hit a brick wall....How would I go about testing these? When I set my Meter to Diode testing and I Gate (pos lead) to Source(neg lead) I get a reading of 0.737, but Im not sure if Im testing this right.
Victor on 05/9/2006 15:14:14
Smart yeah.,... but evil NO... hehe.. actually, this is a business mind i hold over my shoulders, one has to be a bit shrewd to survive in this Car Audio market in india..
2 years of learning and 3 years of professional consultancy and continous research and experience teachs you to use such smart tac tics to make ends meet...
I had 3M india do up a full sound and vibration damping job on a honda CRV as a sample at distributor rates, all labour was arranged by them too....GRIN, GRIN... Though gave them considerable business later..
I have noticed that such trick usually work with most of the companies..
Wish you luck, i hope you find that thingy...
Victor...
swez on 05/9/2006 18:51:29
OK, I was going to suggest Engineering samples as well. However, to get them from Fuji, you'll need to contact one of their sales engineers in your region. The trick is to be honest, persistant and ask for a favor... not trick them into thinking you are building something with "X" potential.
I used to work for TDK and had lots of clients who requested samples. Some were real potentials and we did supply kits they often could by and try. Other times, I needed samples from my clients and they always came through... just ask the right peeps.
Testing the diode is easy. Use the Ohmeter on 10X scale. In one polarity, you will get a resistance number. Then, reverse your leads and read again. You should get Infinite ohms like an open circuit. If you get any ohmic number, the diode junction is breached to some degree of a short. You'll need to lift one leg of the diode off the board to test it correctly. This means you test only the diode and not other circuits that feed in and out of same.
Also, if you cannot find that exact diode spec, (I could not read the doc you posted) the same or higher voltage is OK, as is current passing ability. Diodes act like a one way switch. The allow current to flow in one direction, but block current flow in the reverse direction.
Got all that?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/9/2006 20:44:59
HMMM you couldnt read the file, thats odd? Here are the specs of it
Absolute Maximum Ratings
Repetitve Peak Reverse Voltage (Vrrm) Rating 200V
Non-Repetitive Peak Reverse Voltage(Vrsm) Rating 250V
Isolating Voltage (Viso) Terminals-To-Case,AC.1min 1500v
Average Output Current (IO) Square Wave,duty=1/2,TC 95c 10*A
Surge Current (IFSM) Sine Wave 10ms 70A
Operating Junction Tempature (Tj) +150 C
Electrical Characteristics
Forward Voltage Drop** (Vfm) Ifm=2.5A Max(1.3v)
Reverse Current** (Irrm) Vr=Vrrm Max (50uf)
Reverse Recovery Time (trr) If=0.1a, Ir=0.1a, Irec=0.01a Max(0.4us)
**=rating per element
*= Average Forward Current of Centertrap Full Wave connection
Ok those are the specs directly off of the specs sheet. I'm not sure what you mean by a 10x scale? Im not sure if my meter can do a 10x? I understand about the polarity difference, but what legs should I be testing? This diode looks like a Mosfet and has 3 legs, which Im pretty sure you knew already, because you know your stuff :), but I just wanted to be sure.
Im going to post the doc link again, because I redid it. If you see the picture click on it and it will enlarge :)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/tidalwavetiburon/datasheet_Page_1.jpg
swez on 05/10/2006 10:37:03
This one may work for your application: MUR1620CT:
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MUR1620CT
Specs:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MUR1620CT-D.PDF
This is a common cathode, dual channel, fast recovery diode in a T220AB package.
To test this package, pin 1 & 3 are anodes. Pin 2 is a common cathode. The 10X on meter = 10 ohms max scales. Here, you test meter values between pins 1 & 2, then reverse polarity of probes. Repeat same process between pins 2 & 3. Then reverse polarity of probes.
Here's a testing method to use:
http://www.the12volt.com/diodes/diodes.asp
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/10/2006 14:24:35
Dude YOU ROCK :) I cant open the pages from work, because these work PC's are super crappy, but I'm heading home in like a half hour so I will then. I will post the results :)
sup2jzgte on 05/10/2006 17:40:45
I have a question about the MUR1620CT. I was comparing the specs of the YG225D2 and MUR1620CT and some of it matches but I'm not sure what the most important specs are in the 2. I noticed that the MUR is rated at 8 amps and the YG is rated for 10amps and some other specs match or are higher rated. Now if I'm not mistaken is isnt bad to have the max ratings higher than the normal rating. Most of the specs on the MUR are higher than the specs on the YG, the only thing that is rated lower is the AMPS, so would that matter?
swez on 05/11/2006 11:04:01
That was my same question as I looked for possible crosses. I don't know if this amp needs more than 8A's per leg on these fast recovery diodes??? The Fuji may be spec'd at 10A's per leg, but may not need that extra amperage flow.
Unfortunately, the only people that know that answer, would be the design engineers at Kicker. I doubt you'll get access to them, but it's worth a try.
However, test the diodes you have in there now. Until you know they are bad, there's no point in spinning wheels to replace something that still is in working order. Cross that bridge, when you get there. (Diode bridge that is) GRIN
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/11/2006 16:07:17
Ok here is what i found, not sure if the diode is good or bad, because I dont know what to look for.
Pins
1 2 3
Pos Neg
.378
1 2 3
Neg Pos
.865
1 2 3
Pos Neg
.380
1 2 3
Neg Pos
0.0 (meter started at 300 and went up until it reset)
Ok now these tests where done with them fully connected to the board. I tried to desolder them and for some reason I cant get them out. I have tried multiple watts on my soldering Gun and No matter how high I put it I still cant get them fully unsoldered. I got ALL visible solder removed, but I cant get it all. Any Ideas? Oh I found the YG225D2 FINALLY!!! I hope this is the problem :)
sup2jzgte on 05/11/2006 16:11:31
Ok that pin lay out didnt work :)
Ok so I will try this
Pin 1 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) Reading was .378
Pin1 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) Reading was .805
Pin 2 (Pos) Pin3 (neg) Reading Was .380
Pin2 (neg) Pin 3 (pos) Reading was 0.0 (The meter started at 300 and went until it reset)
swez on 05/11/2006 20:59:05
They (the pins) might be crimped over at the under side of the board and therefore, hard to remove. Do you have some solder wick? (flat copper braid wire to soak up the old solder?) Highly recommended.
Automatic incertion machines will often have a crimping function to keep the component in place before they hit the solder reflow system. Also, many of the newer boards are using high temp, lead free (no Pb) solders. It might be a 95/5 alloy, (Sn/Ag) Tin and silver. This alloy has a much higher melting point. Hense, a stronger soldering tool. (2 stage gun)
PIN Test:
Pin 1 & 3 are Cathodes. Pin 2 and heat sink are common anodes. We test dual junction transistors as followed:
1. Pin 1 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) = some ohmic value (***)
2. Pin 1 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) = no ohmic value or infinite (open circuit)
3. Pin 3 (pos) Pin 2 (neg) = same ohmic value as (***)
4. Pin 3 (neg) Pin 2 (pos) = infinite
If you get any resistance readings on steps 2 & 4, the diode junction has been damaged.... replace component.
NOTE: To get proper readings, the device needs to be removed from the board. If you try this test while connected, results will not be conclusive.
So, found some of the Fuji diodes eh? Great! Just take great care when de-soldering and removal of old devices. If you mess up the board traces or soldering pads, will have to use jumper wires. This is a real pain. Remeber these tips:
1. Use solder wick (rest braid over solder joint and heat braid until it sucks up most or the solder on that pad)
2. Use proper soldering tool (heat range)
3. Look for crimped legs of the component on the back side of the board, bent tabs may look like this... (< ^ >) or (_ ^ _)
Got all that?
Swez
sup2jzgte on 05/13/2006 01:47:52
ok I have bent the tabs out, tried 3 different soldering irons including this one.
http://www.iso-tip.com/html/butane_models.htm (the one in the middle)
I would figure 750 degrees would be enough, but I still cant get the part out. I have soldered and desolders 1000 of things, but this little SOB is giving me a headache. Do you think I need to move up to a 1000 degrees? I cant imagine that they would do that.
There is NO solder in the board at all it is all over my braid. I mean I can see right through part of the hole, but the damn thing still wont come out
swez on 05/14/2006 11:10:14
Yes, I do understand the situation. Seems like you have adequate heat to remove solder and if it's wicking up on the braid, that's a good sign too.
The problem here, is thay you have to heat 3 legs at the same time to get them free. Then with a set of long-nosed visegrips, grab the heat sink and gently heat and rock the component until each leg is free. Appliy just enough force to lift each leg, but not so much as to crack the PC board.
A hot knife is often used to heat larger areas and multiple solder joints at once. These are expensive, but if you plan to do a lot of board level repairs in time, this is the tool to have on hand for multi-pin devices.
http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/102135.0/CategoryID/19500.0/SubCatID/8850.0/file.htm
Tool:
http://www.toolsource.com/ost/product.asp?sourceid=googlevisegrip&dept%5Fid=500&pf%5Fid=51699&mscssid=RCVPXJTTD61V9N9JTX156C8LAF9R6PA3
Swez
PS You may try heating the 3 legs and pushing them into the board enough to snip off the crimped legs. That should free the little sucker too.
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