Hey Guys,
I'm just curious if there is a difference between midrange and
midbass drivers? I am in the beginning stages of putting together a door speaker project and need some clarification on this topic. Where do coaxial speakers fall into the equasion. I hope the answer is not as simple as the frequancy responce and range of a given speaker. Thanks for any clarification. Once I figure this out I will start a new topic directly rerlated to specific speakers.
Demetrios
Replies (32)
Ash on 04/25/2006 18:07:17
Here's a link that might answer your question. Keep in mind there are drivers that can cover a pretty wide range, however both the terms midrange and midbass are used loosely at times. Then they become a misnomer and can confuse a newb.
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t37
Coaxials at times aren't a bad choice. Because of tweeter position there are usually less phase/time issues. Their downfall is the use of inferior passive crossover parts usually by way of a simple 6db octave capacitor in the tweeter circuit. This doesn't maximize the speaker as a whole and can actually decrease power handling and sound quality.
There are some that have better & full crossovers that can rival or outdo most less costly component sets, but they aren't cheap in price.
swez on 04/25/2006 19:19:45
Well done FAQ Ash... that why you be a Gold!
In a nutshell, 2-way Components or Coaxials seem to be very adequate for most car installs. In HT and large venue audio enviorns, it makes sense to consider 3,4 or even 5-way systems. In these applications, each driver has a dedicated amp and crossover filtering network to manage frequency bands and phase alignments to each given speaker.
As Ash points out, we have each speaker element, doing a limited amount of the audio spectrum. In most cases, we can break things down so that each driver is only responsible for a few octaves of the entire audible range:
Woofers: 10, 20, 40 & 80 Hz. (4 octaves)
Midbass: 80, 160, & 320 Hz. (3 octaves)
Midrange: 320, 640, 1,280 & 2,560 Hz. (4 octaves)
Tweeter: 2,560, 5,120, 10,240 & 20,000 Hz. (4 octaves)
Does that suffice? If not, ask for more.
Swez
demetman on 04/25/2006 19:56:02
Cool, that was a helpful link Ash. Can you help me make some sence of some specifications for some comps that will be used in the system. This is what I have.
a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" component speakers
frequency responce 60Hz-22kHz
sensitivity 90dB
impedance 4ohms
recommended amp pwr 45-150 watts
mounting depth(woofer) 2-5/8"
RMSE-free 0.36 ohms
Fs 60.75 Hz
Re 3.80 ohms
Res 27.46 ohms
Qms 6.82
Qes .94
Qts .83
L1 0.26 mH
L2 0.33 mH
R2 3.99 ohms
Vas (Sd) 7.18 liters
Mms 17.18 grams
Cms (Sd) 399 ?/Newton
Bl (Sd) 5.14 Tesla-M
SPLref (Sd) 84.1 dB(Re)
Xmax 2.5mm
After reading the link you provided and looking over some key specs for these comps, it looks to me like these comps are more geared as a midrange set up. The driver however, has the ability to cover a decent range (60HZ-22Khz) but lacks the overall abilities to handle as a solid midbass performer. Xmax at only 2.5mm must must have a negative impact here.
I originally planned to use these comps as the front stage in the doors of my car. For power, I have a new idea brewing in my head. I would like to use a JL 450/4 and pump the a/d/s/ with the 150 watts each for the 1st and 2nd channels. The 75 watts each for the 3rd and 4th channels brought me here for help. I am going to wait to see what you guys think of the a/d/s/ comps, how they should be presented or staged in the system and maybe a some comments on the 450/4 to power all door speakers. Should I use midbass drivers in the rear doors? Will I have enough highs to keep up with a 12w7 powered by a 1000/1 in a sealed enclosure. My goal is to achieve the highest possible sound quality and accoustic balance with the above mentioned equipment, within a realistic budget. I am not scared to spend $350.00 on another set of comps or midbass drivers. Oh, I do currently have a JL 300/2 but plan to sell it to upgrade to 450/4. Maybe something could be done with that. Sometimes my mind spins like a tournado and these nutty ideas pop out. I am in a situation now, where I can do anything at all with the equipment I have. This is a project that I will stretch throughout the summer and well into the fall. I have another vehicle to drive while I am working on this project. I value your opinions and ideas a great deal. Thanks for any advice.
Ash on 04/25/2006 20:58:46
a/d/s/ produces very fine quality products. Though the midbass/midrange drivers seem limited in Fs and xmax, there is probably a good reason. With the higher Q nature, less throw and low end resonance is needed to produce midbass. Looks like they engineered them to easily integrate and take advantage of the cars natural acoustics. Not to mention they're coupled with elite crossovers. I willing to bet you will be surprised of the quality sound that set will produce.
As far as power goes, the rating is dicerned by what hi-pass frequencies are sent to them. If crossed over lower (say 80hz) they will handle less power. Higher, vice versa. I would go with the 75rms, as this will present them with plenty of clean power and still allow them to use a lower setting to easily blend with a sub.
If used with a true full 150 per side, a higher setting will have to be used to protect the driver at higher volumes. This may cause you to lose some midbass response without much gain in total volume.
To get the full benefit of these, make sure your inner door skins are damped properly. Then you will be able to make a full judgement for yourself.
As far as midbass or any driver in the rear, if amped they may detract from the imaging from the front stage. Believe or not, most high quality systems do not even consist of a rear surround or what have you. The fronts are design to do all the work and engulf you the sound as if it were a HT.
The sub project is a little strong on power, but that does not necessarily mean that you have to use it all. If tuned right and properly gained, it can leave you with gobs of headroom to keep the subs playing clean. The 300/2 on the a/d/s's can be worked like that as well, just watch how you crank them cranking and the crossover settings.
Sounds like you may have a A-1 quality setup on your hands. Try them and see how they do before scrapping that idea.
swez on 04/25/2006 21:07:50
To get the most MB driver from the A/D/S Comps, it would be best to seal them in an enclosure., Custom door pods or kick panels. Hopefully, Ash can run the numbers through WinISD to figure out what the internal dimensions will be for best performance at 60/90 Hz., and up to midrange. (Midrange comes from direct cone radiation)
As for rear speakers, MB only drivers, would be fine here. All your highs are in the front stage locations. What are the stock speaker sizes in the rear section of this truck? Looks like 4.0 - 5.25" will fit into rear speakers. Not good for MB.
You could build a custom enclosure(s) for a pair of 6.0'' - 8.0" MB drivers. This would take some careful planning on MB speaker choices, a band pass filter network and efficient enough to cut through the sub power.
Swez
Ash on 04/25/2006 22:06:21
I'm not sure I like this driver in a sealed enclosure as the high Qts calls for large airspaces. Even at the smallest box Q (Qtc=1.1 with a 1.8 db lift @ 102hz/ F3 from peak @ 68hz) this drivers requires .342 cft. From there the volume gets worse, though response smooths out. Clearly they made this as a infinite baffle driver.
A alternative that would take some work and patience is a aperiodic enclosure. The high Q will take advantage of this and will reduce enclosure size. Test equipment would have to be used to get a accurate measurement of what Q it is set at, unless you play by ear (painstakenly timely).
demetman on 04/25/2006 23:41:11
Wow guys looks like I have some work cut out for me. Ash I'm sorry, I haven't updated my vehicle profile yet. I had a Dodge PU truck and now have a Dodge Magnum. Also I had the a/d/s/ comps in my front doors in the PU truck powered by the 300/2. The sound was very impressive, however lacking in low frequancy.(virtually no bass) I have another post "What Would You Do" which explains how a "professional" audio shop butchered the install on one side of the a/d/s/ comps by connecting the tweeter to lowpass network of the crossover. All that has been rectified and Directed Electronics is sending me a new set.
Swez, here's the deal with the Magnum. My wife works for a pharmaceutical company and is provided with a vehicle. When the vehicles hit 55,000 miles they choose a new vehicle and have the option to buy the used vehicle for a rediculously cheap price or sell to family or friends. A co worker has an 05 Magnum, has ordered a new car (Dodge Charger) and when the vehicle is deliverered (any day now) the Magnum is mine($5,000) lucky me. With that being said I'm not sure exactly what size rear door speakers are. I have tried Crutchfield (what fits my vehicle) and only a range of sizesshow up I believe rears are 5.25" and fronts 6.5". This is why I am trying to get all speakers, amps, and wiring on paper to make things easier to install. I will be dampening entire vehicle with RAAMmat, so running wire should be pretty easy.
Sorry to bounce around so much guys but Ash, what would the perfect amplifier match be for a 12w7. The 1000/1 a little strong as you implied. Once the input voltage senstitivity is set correctly, can the head unit subwoofer and bass features be toned down to compensate for a little heavy on the amp power? I thought the 12w7 and 1000/1 were a great match, knowing the 12w7 handles 750 watts rms. I am pretty set on having the 1000/1 used for my low end, but would consider moving to a 13w7 if need be. I don't know where I got the idea that JL subs craved more than their rms rating.
Victor on 04/26/2006 03:58:12
DID ANYONE MISS ME..????
Looks a lot is going on , on CK...
Well was held up doing 2 Car audio projects and 3 conference rooms for a Banks Head Quaters which included mutimedia projection systems and an addressing system, one thing was weired tho, they wanted TV channel projection on all of their conference rooms..they never actually cud come up with a valid explanation for it..anyways, since they asked for it why wud i not do it to earn money,
hmmm..
sorry to have interrupted on this post, but was jsut going thru CK and found this one interesting , especially after reading that article by ASH..
Well Done ASH, CLAPthats a real good one , just a minor bit of unwanted suggesstion,
Try and rearrange that article with points, bullets, and to the point statements , it will help u slpit up those long paragraphs and will be much better to read , understand and digest..
I am working on one article too after a lot of research, Will be putting up one soon on Sound Damping, have already done a couple of pages in co-ordination with swez, i shall be working more on it next week.
Well you guys take care and keep it going on CK, will join you in a weeks time when i finish those projects, get the payments and go back home to relax and spend time with u guys on CK.
Take care, have fun, God Bless
Victor..
P.S..
was amazed to see soo many changes on CK, the new chat, the archives, new articles the clubmail beta and specially those stars ... Its apparent that Walt has been working a lot to revamp CK. Thanks Walt, not just for making and keeping this site on, but also for your constant efforts to make it better.
Swez i guess u can imagine that satisfactory smile on my face when i saw those stars next to members name for the first time, GRIN
Great Work Guys, CLAP
Ash on 04/26/2006 18:31:46
Good point there Victor. THINK I've been wondering if my writing style may be a bit much. Still stuck back in the school days! When I get time I'll go back and clean it up a bit.
Demet', before we rule out that set, has it been fully maximized in the doors? Even if you go to a different set, you still will need to make sure the door is seen by the driver as a good enclosure. Not one that the inner door skin is full of holes and allowing the back wave to interfere with the front wave.
The xmax is somewhat limited, but that is common amongst most brands. There are others that give a greater xmax (4-6mm one way), but require more mounting depth.
demetman on 04/26/2006 20:48:17
Ash, I have no option of ruling out the a/d/s/ comps, as Directed is sending me a brand new set via warrenty service. I have already spent FAR to much to part with these babies. I just need to work out some details for my system. I think I'm set on using the a/d/s/ as the front stage speakers in the front doors. I just need to figure out how much power to throw at the a/d/s/ comps, and if this system can benefit greatly from rear door midbass drivers. I guess what I am really looking for is advice from experienced installers on what direction to go with door speakers, knowing that I will be using a 12w7 powered by a 1000/1 sealed in a fairly large open wagen type vehicle. As I mentioned before, money is not a great concern, the best possible sound is my goal and low and high frequancy balance is key to me. Any ideas let me know. Thanks
swez on 04/26/2006 23:34:04
Hummm, I think Ash is on to the key points here. Here's my read on the situation.
1. Seal the doors with matting and block as much of the rear wave energy as possible. (Rear cone signals cancel front cone signals, unless we use tuned ports... not recommended)
2. If this does not yield satifactory MB performace, then consider using MB drivers in the back of the Magnum, to improve MB performance. The trick is blending all drivers to get a well balanced system in all.
This vehicle is a hybrid between a sedan and SUV. It will offer the bass performance (acoustical coupling) of a small SUV, but your front stage needs to have enough clean power to keep up with the bass engine. Padding the JL sub amp down several dB will be needed to keep the system from being very bass heavy.
Does your present HU have a good EQ system in it? Not just Bass, Mids and Highs here. But a good multiband EQ whereby you can match up the MB/MR/TW's so you have a reasonably flat output with a pink noise test tone. If you can achieve a +/- 2dB response curve with EQ and amp crossovers, this is a fine SQL target.
You may need some help with dialing in your system. The proper tool for doing this, is a calibrated mike and an RTA. (Real Time Analyzer) Once the system is as flat as you can get it, then you can tailor your music to taste as needed. Just remember to write down all your settings when it was dialed in. That will be your fixed reference point.
NOTE: If you have a laptop computer, there are RTA software programs out there. The only thing you would need is a quality calibrated mike, made for such things.
Swez
demetman on 04/27/2006 01:14:30
Well Swez, honestly I'm not sure if my HU (Alpine 9851) has what you woul consider a good multiband EQ. I know that the settings on this HU include crossover frequancy settings for bass and treble. I never really understood how HU crossover settings worked and affected the sound of a speaker powered by an amplifier with the same optional frequancy setting range. It's funny I just read about RTAs in a book called Auto Audio (Yoder). I believe he states RTAs were very expensive and small family install shops probrably would not have this piece of equipment. I have also read about the functions of digital and parametric EQs and the benefits for system tweaking. They sound a little complicated to use and set properly.
How would one effectively pad the power on the 1000/1 to maintain balance of the system? I only asking because I now know the importance of proper input sensitivity settings for JL amps. Can one simply set the amp to the proper voltage and just cut back on the sens and stay in the voltage targeted range?
Here I go again Swez getting side tracked so easily. Some times I forget what I am originally asking or trying to accomplish. My apologies for running all over the road here with questions (I've got a lot on my mind). I am going to take your advice on the above post starting at #1. Should I purchase 450/4 and use 150 watts to power a/d/s/ or use 75 watt channels and save 150 for other speakers? Or should I use my 300/2 and not have the option to use MB driver or comp set for the rear. What do you think?
swez on 04/27/2006 11:44:53
RTA software you can download and try free for 14 days:
http://www.allen-heath.com/US/ViewProductdownloads.asp?search=Real%20Time%20Analyser
For now, use the gear you have on hand. Once the amps and speakers/subs are installed, then you can determine any weaknesses that you feel compelled to address. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
That HU has very basic tone controls. Mainly bass engine EQ and treble are the options. A good EQ add on will help you dial things in much better than the basic options available with this HU model. Can discuss this more later.
As for attenuating bass to the 1000/1, the HU is rated at 2.0 volts. Adjusting gain and line level inputs, will give you plenty of bass attenuation ability. No additional hardware is needed here.
Now, Parametric EQ's help the sound engineer to dial in on specific bands of frequencies. They offer a center frequency select and 'Q' adjustments. (Variable bandwidth... narrow to wide band adjustments) They work great, but require some other tools (RTA, calibrated mike) to do the job well.
A quality EQ such as products from AudioControl, give the user many bands (up to 13 band adjustments) in a single box. The indash version like the Four.1i are pretty good for all but the most determined audiophile.
EQS: Trunk mount, 13 stereo bands, very fine gear here
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14160&d_Id=5248&l1=5248&l2=
Four.1i: In dash, 1/2 Din size, 5 band adjustments, a solid product too
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14150&d_Id=5250&l1=5250&l2=
You can usually find very good prices off e-bay for either of these units. New, they are not cheap.
In summary, install your gear and get a base line of general performance. I believe a MB driver(s) can be powered in tri-mode with the 300/2 and a good passive bandpass filter. Here, you have no HU fade control over MB output. The EQ has to do the work and perhaps a passive attenuator will be used to tone MB down as needed. (L-pad)
NOTE: MB frequencies are not as directional as MR/TW signals. Therefore, a single driver is fine. (say a single 8" woofer, 8W3v2 series) For symmetry, you can use dual 8's as well. They will require sealed enclosures.
Caution: Check with JL Tech Support to determine if the 300/2 can be used in Tri-mode applications and what the recommended impedence for the MB driver needs to be.
Confused? Relax, take a deep breath and we'll go through the details on a one-on-one basis. Take this in small steps, then refine the details of any stage that needs to be addressed in deeper detail. We're here to guide you through. With guys like Ash, Victor and myself, we won't let you down.
Swez
Victor on 04/27/2006 16:49:03
Here's something u cud use to understand tri-mode application
http://www.autohifi-world.com/fack/trimodpd.htm
Hope it helps..
Victor...
Almost al of the bridgeable amps are Tri-mode capable.
If you use a 4 ohm MB driver in trimode config then the total load each channel will see is 1.33ohms which is way below what the amp can take,its a sure No No ( tho u can definitely use 2 of those drivers and wire them in parallel for a total load of 8ohms and then use them in trimode )
a 6 ohm Mb driver will show the amp a total load of 1.71ohms per stereo channel which is again lower then what the amp is capable of ie. 2 ohm load in stereo = 4 ohm load mono., but u can run this config if u want more MB loudness and dont mind pushing your amp a bit.
An 8 ohm MB driver wud be perfect and will give a load of 2 ohms across each channel. Safest and most effective way to go.
Using passive components across each driver to filter unwanted frequencies would be the best here. so that the am does not have to work hard de to over lap of frequencies and even the speakers are saved of the extra effort in trying to re-produce signals they are not designed for.
If you cant understand the trimode application i wud suggest you read the amplifier bridging section first , here it is
http://www.autohifi-world.com/fack/bridging.htm
Ash on 04/27/2006 18:31:35
There's nothing to worry about Dem'. You are in good hands. Just take one step at a time to pinpoint any problems that arise or improvements made, and then you will know what the next step to take is. Keep us updated so we can continue to help you and don't be afraid to ask questions no matter how silly you think. That's how you learn!
demetman on 04/27/2006 19:54:44
Thanks guys, you have touched on areas I have never heard of. Tri mode amplification is a bit confusing and an area for further review. I have read my 300/2 manual a couple times and never came across any info on tri mode applications. I am friendly with Jose Rodrigues at JL technical support and will check in with him on tri mode capabilities of my 300/2.
I'm not at all worried about getting everything in and set up right. You guys are all brilliant and a HUGE help with all aspects here. As I mentioned, I will be tacking my good ol time with all parts of this project and I'm sure I'll have several questions along the way. I'm just one of those rare breeds that likes to be super organized with everything in line and well plot out before starting a project. Talk to you guys soon.
Demet
swez on 04/28/2006 09:54:44
A planner and seeker of the key details, is a skill set we all appreciate.
Nothing drives me buggy like a post that goes something like... "Hey guys, I just bought all this stuff, know nothing about how to hook it up".... HELP!!! I just cringe when I see that type of post. (silly me huh?)
Anyway, yes... call your JL guy and make sure the 300/2 can be used in the tri-mode configuration and what ohmic load is required (safe) to do so.
Swez
demetman on 05/1/2006 22:41:00
Guys, a call to JL today confirms a 300/2 can be operated in tri mode at any ohmic load above 1.5. The tech agrees that an 8 ohm MB driver would be the way to go here, however he does not believe there is a "true" MB driver rated at 8 ohms available these days. JL used to make one years ago but did away with it for one reason or another. Well, if there is a product out there that fits my needs, I'm sure you guys can find it. Can you guys help me understand the basic configuration using MB drivers as an addition to the a/d/s/ comps powered by the 300/2 in tri mode? How is the power seperated and delivered to each speaker in this mode? Thanks Guys
PS I received a new a/d/s/ 346 cs comp set via warrenty service from Directed Electronics today. These guys provided top notch service from beginning to end.
swez on 05/1/2006 23:51:04
Tri-mode operation explained:
http://www.bcae1.com/trimode.htm
Follow the other link included for more details. Here, we are looking at full range speakers and not a woofer, but rather a MB driver. The HPF is set at 80 Hz. Everything above that, passes through the full range speakers. However, the MB driver needs a Band Pass filter to knock out frequencies above ~300 Hz.
The net resistance target of 8 ohms is easily done with a 4+4 DVC in series, an 8 ohm SVC or two 4 ohm SVC's in series.
Want some test tones? Try these:
http://www.eminent-tech.com/music/multimediatest.html
Swez
Victor on 05/2/2006 01:33:20
Using an 8ohm MB driver in Trimode with a set of speakers and this amp,
Each channel will see the total load of 2 ohms each, this amp gives 150wrms @ 1.5 to 4ohms.. ie. at 2 ohms it will deliver 150wrms per channel,
In tri-mode the power distribution will be 75 wrms x 2 + 150 wrms x 1.
The Mb driver will get 150wrms and the other speakers will see 75wrms each.
So i guess the task at hand now should be looking for a good 8 ohm
125 wrms - 175wrms MB Driver.
Lets do some searching and get back ..COFFEE
Victor..
Victor on 05/2/2006 02:23:42
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3&Cat_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=490&manufacturer=&sm=1&so=2
http://edesignaudio.com/product.php?cid=15&pid=32&tab=Specs&cur=USD
demetman on 05/2/2006 10:31:25
The above tri mode diagrams appear to be powering 2 full range speakers and a woofer. Will a tri mode application with the 300/2 allow me to power my a/d/s/ comp set, and a set of MB drivers to compliment each door? Will the MB driver even be selected for a door mount or sealed application?
Victor on 05/2/2006 11:35:14
Oh,,, so u looking at a set of speakers.....
What we thought was that just like many high end SQ systems you are looking for a mono signal MB driver placed in the centre of the dash to enhance bass upfront.
If you are looking for a set of MB playing stereo signal and in the doors, then the wiring becomes very easy, you dont need to use the Tri-mode configuration then,
All you do is wire each MB and Comp set in parallel to the respective channel.
Take a set of 4ohm MB drivers in the power range of 75-100wrms and wire them like this...
. +MB and +comp to +amp, -MB and -comp to -amp. do this on both channels.
This will show a total ohmic load of 2 ohms on each channel, and the amp will be giving u 150wrms per channel,
This 150wrms will split equally between the comp set and the MB driver and each will get 75wrms.
This is not a bad way either.
Depends on what you are aiming at.
Victor..
you may need a passive bandpass Xover to cut down extreme low and MR / highs to insure good performance, you wud not like giving a speaker the frequencies its not meant to handle.
demetman on 05/2/2006 15:04:42
Victor, your wiring instructions seem simple but what about the a/d/s/ crossover network? Should I have assumed on running 1 wire from right channel amp+ to tweeter+ in on crossover network and 1 wire from right channel amp- to woofer- on crossover network. Then running directly from right channel amp+ to MB driver+ terminal and from right channel amp- to MB driver- terminal? Then the same thing for the other channel, comp set and MB driver. Am I on the right track here or a distant planet? Also Swez, turned me on to an Audio Control EQS 6 channel trunk mount EQ. Could this piece of equipment be used to filter unwanted frequancies to MB driver assuming my above interpretation of wiring is correct? Thanks
Victor on 05/2/2006 15:55:01
Yes you are right, but dont forget to keep the switch in the Xover on parallel mode.
http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/og/ads-mobile/G39301.06_04-04.pdf
See page 10 for detailed diagram,
And No the Audio control EQS is an equaliser and not an Xover, you may want to have a look at
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14144&d_Id=5247&l1=5247&l2=
This is an equaliser with a 2/3 way fully adjustable electronic Xover.
Its a bit pricey but its worth every penny.
Victor..
demetman on 05/2/2006 17:21:05
Ok Victor I see what you are saying. That Audio Control DQX looks like a nice piece and fairly user friendly as well. I would assume the wires from each amp channel would run to DQX and directly to MB driver with the signal filtered within a set range. If this is correct all I need is some advice on MB drivers and where to install for best options (keeping in mind this will be by far the most challenging install for me to date).
Victor on 05/2/2006 23:41:41
http://myeporia.eporia.com/Resources/Company_38/DQX_OM.pdf
see page 5
You may ask about the MB amplification in this case, a new 2 ch amp just dedicated to the MB drivers.
depends on how much u wanna spend on the install, or another way out is just use a passive bandpass Xover, ( just like the one u have with the a/d/s comps , with the MB driver too)
or
use a 3 way passive Xover to wire the Mb, and the comp mb and tweeter all to one 3 way Xover and let the a/d/s Xover lie in ur garage.
If done well all the 3 ways can give you really good sound, ofcourse each of them have some pro's and con's, but as far as the install is done well i dont see any negative issue with either of the setups.
Hope it helps.
Victor..
since u are one of the kinds who is really enthusiastic and willing to learn am just guiding you to the right resources. Ofcourse we are all here to help you incase you dont understand something or are stuck in some place.
swez on 05/3/2006 11:46:36
If you add MB drivers to this system, remember the operational frequency range of a MB system is very narrow in range. (typically ~60-300 Hz.)
The trick here, is to employ a passive LP crossover network that filters out the highs, above 300 Hz. Your amp settings on the HP crossover are already set to what, 80 Hz.?
Now, If you use a pair of MB drivers, Victor's suggestion of wiring each one (4 ohm driver) in parallel to each amp outputs, is correct. If you chose a stand alone MB driver, it will be an 8 ohm driver, wired in tri-mode configuration. Again a LP, passive filter will be used.
FYI: MR drivers operate in a very limited range of frequencies. High efficieincy drivers are best here. Also, MB is similar to bass frequencies. They are not very directional at this frequency range. So, one driver in an enclosure is a possible option, run as mono mode.
Also, a decent EQ system can really help bring up the MB sound in your vehicle. Door mounted, dual drivers are a good option too. This way, you'll have stereo MB performance. (Nice for guitar, drum kit toms, piano, synth and upper bass guitar registers.
Question: Your rear speakers... what size are they now?
Swez
demetman on 05/3/2006 15:50:15
Swez, I think the rear door speakers are 5.75"(I will be confirming this as soon as I get vehicle vin#) My 300/2 is back in the box, but yes LP is set to 80Hz. Guys, maybe adding MB drivers using the 300/2 just isn't optimal or practical for that matter. I really don't have a problem trying to sell the 300/2 and starting fresh with a JL450/4. The Magnum has a huge trunk area, so maybe I can incorporate one or even two 8" subs in a sealed enclosure rear firing(to handle MB range) with the 12w7. Each driver(s) will be responsible for a given frequancy range. The channels producing 75wrms will power the comp set in the front doors allowing for a higher crossover point and the 150wrms channels can be used to power two 8" subs(MB) or bridged for 300wrms to 1 sub(MB). I would certainly use the DQS in this situation and If need a little help with more highs, I could power efficient full range speakers in the rear door from HU.
Does this idea sound ok? I'm just sitting here thinking of different ideas. As you guys can see, I am willing to spend some money on a quality set up here. I do not plan on any major upgrades after this project so I need to get things right first round. Again sorry for switching gears like this, but fortunatelly I am in a possition where I can do anything I want with this vehicle. I value your input, opinions, comments and suggestions. Thanks
swez on 05/3/2006 17:18:06
Indeed, you have plenty of flexibility going forward and why not look at the options. You have some prior experiences, know the options we have outlined so far and see that we are indeed here to help you achieve your goals.
Since this is basically a station wagon, SUV and hatchback hybrid, you will find this vehicle has many desirable audio characteristics over the PU truck. The Magnum is equipped with 6.5" speakers. It will accomodate your A/D/S Comps up front and 6.5" MB in the rear, plus your sub.
This vehicle can become a bit bass heavy if you use all that 1000/1 and the 12W7 at full tilt boogey. But, this is more than managable with a remote bass controller for the 1000/1.
If you use efficient MB drivers in the rear panels, I don't think you'll need any additional re-enforecement. (additional MB drivers, combined with the sub box)
Chew on things a bit as you have the time and patience to do so.
Swez
demetman on 05/3/2006 19:57:56
Good advice Swez! I think I'm just going to kick back and think things over a while. I am aware of the extensive bass responce potential of the sub/amp pairing planned. I'd like to have that vicious bass available if I'm in the mood for it. Mostly intriquite music and such as Frank Zappa, Rush, Floyd and guitar slayers such as Roy Buchanan, Steve Vai, Satriani etc.
I am going to start sourcing and ordering the bulk of my equipment now while things are still slow at work. I'll be back when question pop up, and advice is needed.
Oh, I made an appointment with the GM at car audio shop for tomorrow morning. I am super prepared with a typed "Documented Installation Issues" sheet outlining in great detail all issues and evidence to back up my claims. I also printed all the pictures that will show the GM what a disgracefull job his tech performened. All good stuff Swez, you would be proud.
PS how ya macking out with the trout fishing?
swez on 05/3/2006 23:27:01
I hope your meeting with the GM all works out well. Just remember, there are often more than 2 sides to every transaction... thier side, your expectations and somewhere in the middle is reality. Since you have everything well documented, pics to prove what was done and such, this should work in your favor.
The main thing to consider here, is what you think is a fair and reasonable deal for the botched install. As long as you know what you believe to be reasonable and fair, the GM is likely to work with you and meet somewhere in the middle. Good luck!
Trout fishing is very slow at the moment. We see them, they see us and I can even wade within 30 feet of them at times. They like to tease us with areobatic jumps, side flashes and hunkering down in slow pools. I have hooked 2-3 already, but yet to land one. Will try again soon as the weather and schedule permits. My brother, (an expert fly-fisherman) has yet to catch any either. So, if he's not getting them, we are just not "in the pockets" at the right time for them to turn on and bite.
Went out yesterday with my twin brother to the Maumee River in Toledo, OH. The walleye are just about done with their spawning run and the white bass are now moving up the river now. It rained a good part of the day and I got soaked to the bone, but loved it anyway. Funny thing about walleye, the worse the weather, the better they bite.
I had a slip and almost went down into this river too. The slate rock bottom is slippery as snot on a freshly waxed floor. Couple that with a lot of algae on the rocks, a strong current and deep water... it was like waking on ice with leather soled shoes in a stiff wind. Dicey at best.
Water clarity was about 4 inches at best. Once one is ankle deep in these coffee-colored waters, you cannot see your feet, much less obstructions, ledges and the rip-rap. Whoowie... it was very interesting, to say the least.
In short, we managed 4 nice walleye, 4 white bass and gave the river a lot of tackle that day. Am glad the season is almost over now and I won't be going back until next season. Do you know any good "Slip and Fall" Lawyers? Back to the trout and bass rivers we know well... Thank you very much...
Anyway, take your time and mull over the new project. It looks like the A/D/S Comps will fit in the front. You can use 6.5" MB drivers in the rear. Once the vehicle is in hand, scope it out and see what possible options you may have. Shoot a few pics and put them up on photo-bucket, so we can see what you have to work with. Then, we'll help you sort out options that work.
The DQS is a very nice tool for an advanced SQL install. You have 6 channels of output available, 5 amp channels and all sorts of crossover options too. Am sure this project will be much better in your hands, now that you know what makes a quality install.
Swez
I'm just curious if there is a difference between midrange and
midbass drivers? I am in the beginning stages of putting together a door speaker project and need some clarification on this topic. Where do coaxial speakers fall into the equasion. I hope the answer is not as simple as the frequancy responce and range of a given speaker. Thanks for any clarification. Once I figure this out I will start a new topic directly rerlated to specific speakers.
Demetrios
Replies (32)
Ash on 04/25/2006 18:07:17
Here's a link that might answer your question. Keep in mind there are drivers that can cover a pretty wide range, however both the terms midrange and midbass are used loosely at times. Then they become a misnomer and can confuse a newb.
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t37
Coaxials at times aren't a bad choice. Because of tweeter position there are usually less phase/time issues. Their downfall is the use of inferior passive crossover parts usually by way of a simple 6db octave capacitor in the tweeter circuit. This doesn't maximize the speaker as a whole and can actually decrease power handling and sound quality.
There are some that have better & full crossovers that can rival or outdo most less costly component sets, but they aren't cheap in price.
swez on 04/25/2006 19:19:45
Well done FAQ Ash... that why you be a Gold!
In a nutshell, 2-way Components or Coaxials seem to be very adequate for most car installs. In HT and large venue audio enviorns, it makes sense to consider 3,4 or even 5-way systems. In these applications, each driver has a dedicated amp and crossover filtering network to manage frequency bands and phase alignments to each given speaker.
As Ash points out, we have each speaker element, doing a limited amount of the audio spectrum. In most cases, we can break things down so that each driver is only responsible for a few octaves of the entire audible range:
Woofers: 10, 20, 40 & 80 Hz. (4 octaves)
Midbass: 80, 160, & 320 Hz. (3 octaves)
Midrange: 320, 640, 1,280 & 2,560 Hz. (4 octaves)
Tweeter: 2,560, 5,120, 10,240 & 20,000 Hz. (4 octaves)
Does that suffice? If not, ask for more.
Swez
demetman on 04/25/2006 19:56:02
Cool, that was a helpful link Ash. Can you help me make some sence of some specifications for some comps that will be used in the system. This is what I have.
a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" component speakers
frequency responce 60Hz-22kHz
sensitivity 90dB
impedance 4ohms
recommended amp pwr 45-150 watts
mounting depth(woofer) 2-5/8"
RMSE-free 0.36 ohms
Fs 60.75 Hz
Re 3.80 ohms
Res 27.46 ohms
Qms 6.82
Qes .94
Qts .83
L1 0.26 mH
L2 0.33 mH
R2 3.99 ohms
Vas (Sd) 7.18 liters
Mms 17.18 grams
Cms (Sd) 399 ?/Newton
Bl (Sd) 5.14 Tesla-M
SPLref (Sd) 84.1 dB(Re)
Xmax 2.5mm
After reading the link you provided and looking over some key specs for these comps, it looks to me like these comps are more geared as a midrange set up. The driver however, has the ability to cover a decent range (60HZ-22Khz) but lacks the overall abilities to handle as a solid midbass performer. Xmax at only 2.5mm must must have a negative impact here.
I originally planned to use these comps as the front stage in the doors of my car. For power, I have a new idea brewing in my head. I would like to use a JL 450/4 and pump the a/d/s/ with the 150 watts each for the 1st and 2nd channels. The 75 watts each for the 3rd and 4th channels brought me here for help. I am going to wait to see what you guys think of the a/d/s/ comps, how they should be presented or staged in the system and maybe a some comments on the 450/4 to power all door speakers. Should I use midbass drivers in the rear doors? Will I have enough highs to keep up with a 12w7 powered by a 1000/1 in a sealed enclosure. My goal is to achieve the highest possible sound quality and accoustic balance with the above mentioned equipment, within a realistic budget. I am not scared to spend $350.00 on another set of comps or midbass drivers. Oh, I do currently have a JL 300/2 but plan to sell it to upgrade to 450/4. Maybe something could be done with that. Sometimes my mind spins like a tournado and these nutty ideas pop out. I am in a situation now, where I can do anything at all with the equipment I have. This is a project that I will stretch throughout the summer and well into the fall. I have another vehicle to drive while I am working on this project. I value your opinions and ideas a great deal. Thanks for any advice.
Ash on 04/25/2006 20:58:46
a/d/s/ produces very fine quality products. Though the midbass/midrange drivers seem limited in Fs and xmax, there is probably a good reason. With the higher Q nature, less throw and low end resonance is needed to produce midbass. Looks like they engineered them to easily integrate and take advantage of the cars natural acoustics. Not to mention they're coupled with elite crossovers. I willing to bet you will be surprised of the quality sound that set will produce.
As far as power goes, the rating is dicerned by what hi-pass frequencies are sent to them. If crossed over lower (say 80hz) they will handle less power. Higher, vice versa. I would go with the 75rms, as this will present them with plenty of clean power and still allow them to use a lower setting to easily blend with a sub.
If used with a true full 150 per side, a higher setting will have to be used to protect the driver at higher volumes. This may cause you to lose some midbass response without much gain in total volume.
To get the full benefit of these, make sure your inner door skins are damped properly. Then you will be able to make a full judgement for yourself.
As far as midbass or any driver in the rear, if amped they may detract from the imaging from the front stage. Believe or not, most high quality systems do not even consist of a rear surround or what have you. The fronts are design to do all the work and engulf you the sound as if it were a HT.
The sub project is a little strong on power, but that does not necessarily mean that you have to use it all. If tuned right and properly gained, it can leave you with gobs of headroom to keep the subs playing clean. The 300/2 on the a/d/s's can be worked like that as well, just watch how you crank them cranking and the crossover settings.
Sounds like you may have a A-1 quality setup on your hands. Try them and see how they do before scrapping that idea.
swez on 04/25/2006 21:07:50
To get the most MB driver from the A/D/S Comps, it would be best to seal them in an enclosure., Custom door pods or kick panels. Hopefully, Ash can run the numbers through WinISD to figure out what the internal dimensions will be for best performance at 60/90 Hz., and up to midrange. (Midrange comes from direct cone radiation)
As for rear speakers, MB only drivers, would be fine here. All your highs are in the front stage locations. What are the stock speaker sizes in the rear section of this truck? Looks like 4.0 - 5.25" will fit into rear speakers. Not good for MB.
You could build a custom enclosure(s) for a pair of 6.0'' - 8.0" MB drivers. This would take some careful planning on MB speaker choices, a band pass filter network and efficient enough to cut through the sub power.
Swez
Ash on 04/25/2006 22:06:21
I'm not sure I like this driver in a sealed enclosure as the high Qts calls for large airspaces. Even at the smallest box Q (Qtc=1.1 with a 1.8 db lift @ 102hz/ F3 from peak @ 68hz) this drivers requires .342 cft. From there the volume gets worse, though response smooths out. Clearly they made this as a infinite baffle driver.
A alternative that would take some work and patience is a aperiodic enclosure. The high Q will take advantage of this and will reduce enclosure size. Test equipment would have to be used to get a accurate measurement of what Q it is set at, unless you play by ear (painstakenly timely).
demetman on 04/25/2006 23:41:11
Wow guys looks like I have some work cut out for me. Ash I'm sorry, I haven't updated my vehicle profile yet. I had a Dodge PU truck and now have a Dodge Magnum. Also I had the a/d/s/ comps in my front doors in the PU truck powered by the 300/2. The sound was very impressive, however lacking in low frequancy.(virtually no bass) I have another post "What Would You Do" which explains how a "professional" audio shop butchered the install on one side of the a/d/s/ comps by connecting the tweeter to lowpass network of the crossover. All that has been rectified and Directed Electronics is sending me a new set.
Swez, here's the deal with the Magnum. My wife works for a pharmaceutical company and is provided with a vehicle. When the vehicles hit 55,000 miles they choose a new vehicle and have the option to buy the used vehicle for a rediculously cheap price or sell to family or friends. A co worker has an 05 Magnum, has ordered a new car (Dodge Charger) and when the vehicle is deliverered (any day now) the Magnum is mine($5,000) lucky me. With that being said I'm not sure exactly what size rear door speakers are. I have tried Crutchfield (what fits my vehicle) and only a range of sizesshow up I believe rears are 5.25" and fronts 6.5". This is why I am trying to get all speakers, amps, and wiring on paper to make things easier to install. I will be dampening entire vehicle with RAAMmat, so running wire should be pretty easy.
Sorry to bounce around so much guys but Ash, what would the perfect amplifier match be for a 12w7. The 1000/1 a little strong as you implied. Once the input voltage senstitivity is set correctly, can the head unit subwoofer and bass features be toned down to compensate for a little heavy on the amp power? I thought the 12w7 and 1000/1 were a great match, knowing the 12w7 handles 750 watts rms. I am pretty set on having the 1000/1 used for my low end, but would consider moving to a 13w7 if need be. I don't know where I got the idea that JL subs craved more than their rms rating.
Victor on 04/26/2006 03:58:12
DID ANYONE MISS ME..????
Looks a lot is going on , on CK...
Well was held up doing 2 Car audio projects and 3 conference rooms for a Banks Head Quaters which included mutimedia projection systems and an addressing system, one thing was weired tho, they wanted TV channel projection on all of their conference rooms..they never actually cud come up with a valid explanation for it..anyways, since they asked for it why wud i not do it to earn money,
hmmm..
sorry to have interrupted on this post, but was jsut going thru CK and found this one interesting , especially after reading that article by ASH..
Well Done ASH, CLAPthats a real good one , just a minor bit of unwanted suggesstion,
Try and rearrange that article with points, bullets, and to the point statements , it will help u slpit up those long paragraphs and will be much better to read , understand and digest..
I am working on one article too after a lot of research, Will be putting up one soon on Sound Damping, have already done a couple of pages in co-ordination with swez, i shall be working more on it next week.
Well you guys take care and keep it going on CK, will join you in a weeks time when i finish those projects, get the payments and go back home to relax and spend time with u guys on CK.
Take care, have fun, God Bless
Victor..
P.S..
was amazed to see soo many changes on CK, the new chat, the archives, new articles the clubmail beta and specially those stars ... Its apparent that Walt has been working a lot to revamp CK. Thanks Walt, not just for making and keeping this site on, but also for your constant efforts to make it better.
Swez i guess u can imagine that satisfactory smile on my face when i saw those stars next to members name for the first time, GRIN
Great Work Guys, CLAP
Ash on 04/26/2006 18:31:46
Good point there Victor. THINK I've been wondering if my writing style may be a bit much. Still stuck back in the school days! When I get time I'll go back and clean it up a bit.
Demet', before we rule out that set, has it been fully maximized in the doors? Even if you go to a different set, you still will need to make sure the door is seen by the driver as a good enclosure. Not one that the inner door skin is full of holes and allowing the back wave to interfere with the front wave.
The xmax is somewhat limited, but that is common amongst most brands. There are others that give a greater xmax (4-6mm one way), but require more mounting depth.
demetman on 04/26/2006 20:48:17
Ash, I have no option of ruling out the a/d/s/ comps, as Directed is sending me a brand new set via warrenty service. I have already spent FAR to much to part with these babies. I just need to work out some details for my system. I think I'm set on using the a/d/s/ as the front stage speakers in the front doors. I just need to figure out how much power to throw at the a/d/s/ comps, and if this system can benefit greatly from rear door midbass drivers. I guess what I am really looking for is advice from experienced installers on what direction to go with door speakers, knowing that I will be using a 12w7 powered by a 1000/1 sealed in a fairly large open wagen type vehicle. As I mentioned before, money is not a great concern, the best possible sound is my goal and low and high frequancy balance is key to me. Any ideas let me know. Thanks
swez on 04/26/2006 23:34:04
Hummm, I think Ash is on to the key points here. Here's my read on the situation.
1. Seal the doors with matting and block as much of the rear wave energy as possible. (Rear cone signals cancel front cone signals, unless we use tuned ports... not recommended)
2. If this does not yield satifactory MB performace, then consider using MB drivers in the back of the Magnum, to improve MB performance. The trick is blending all drivers to get a well balanced system in all.
This vehicle is a hybrid between a sedan and SUV. It will offer the bass performance (acoustical coupling) of a small SUV, but your front stage needs to have enough clean power to keep up with the bass engine. Padding the JL sub amp down several dB will be needed to keep the system from being very bass heavy.
Does your present HU have a good EQ system in it? Not just Bass, Mids and Highs here. But a good multiband EQ whereby you can match up the MB/MR/TW's so you have a reasonably flat output with a pink noise test tone. If you can achieve a +/- 2dB response curve with EQ and amp crossovers, this is a fine SQL target.
You may need some help with dialing in your system. The proper tool for doing this, is a calibrated mike and an RTA. (Real Time Analyzer) Once the system is as flat as you can get it, then you can tailor your music to taste as needed. Just remember to write down all your settings when it was dialed in. That will be your fixed reference point.
NOTE: If you have a laptop computer, there are RTA software programs out there. The only thing you would need is a quality calibrated mike, made for such things.
Swez
demetman on 04/27/2006 01:14:30
Well Swez, honestly I'm not sure if my HU (Alpine 9851) has what you woul consider a good multiband EQ. I know that the settings on this HU include crossover frequancy settings for bass and treble. I never really understood how HU crossover settings worked and affected the sound of a speaker powered by an amplifier with the same optional frequancy setting range. It's funny I just read about RTAs in a book called Auto Audio (Yoder). I believe he states RTAs were very expensive and small family install shops probrably would not have this piece of equipment. I have also read about the functions of digital and parametric EQs and the benefits for system tweaking. They sound a little complicated to use and set properly.
How would one effectively pad the power on the 1000/1 to maintain balance of the system? I only asking because I now know the importance of proper input sensitivity settings for JL amps. Can one simply set the amp to the proper voltage and just cut back on the sens and stay in the voltage targeted range?
Here I go again Swez getting side tracked so easily. Some times I forget what I am originally asking or trying to accomplish. My apologies for running all over the road here with questions (I've got a lot on my mind). I am going to take your advice on the above post starting at #1. Should I purchase 450/4 and use 150 watts to power a/d/s/ or use 75 watt channels and save 150 for other speakers? Or should I use my 300/2 and not have the option to use MB driver or comp set for the rear. What do you think?
swez on 04/27/2006 11:44:53
RTA software you can download and try free for 14 days:
http://www.allen-heath.com/US/ViewProductdownloads.asp?search=Real%20Time%20Analyser
For now, use the gear you have on hand. Once the amps and speakers/subs are installed, then you can determine any weaknesses that you feel compelled to address. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
That HU has very basic tone controls. Mainly bass engine EQ and treble are the options. A good EQ add on will help you dial things in much better than the basic options available with this HU model. Can discuss this more later.
As for attenuating bass to the 1000/1, the HU is rated at 2.0 volts. Adjusting gain and line level inputs, will give you plenty of bass attenuation ability. No additional hardware is needed here.
Now, Parametric EQ's help the sound engineer to dial in on specific bands of frequencies. They offer a center frequency select and 'Q' adjustments. (Variable bandwidth... narrow to wide band adjustments) They work great, but require some other tools (RTA, calibrated mike) to do the job well.
A quality EQ such as products from AudioControl, give the user many bands (up to 13 band adjustments) in a single box. The indash version like the Four.1i are pretty good for all but the most determined audiophile.
EQS: Trunk mount, 13 stereo bands, very fine gear here
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14160&d_Id=5248&l1=5248&l2=
Four.1i: In dash, 1/2 Din size, 5 band adjustments, a solid product too
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14150&d_Id=5250&l1=5250&l2=
You can usually find very good prices off e-bay for either of these units. New, they are not cheap.
In summary, install your gear and get a base line of general performance. I believe a MB driver(s) can be powered in tri-mode with the 300/2 and a good passive bandpass filter. Here, you have no HU fade control over MB output. The EQ has to do the work and perhaps a passive attenuator will be used to tone MB down as needed. (L-pad)
NOTE: MB frequencies are not as directional as MR/TW signals. Therefore, a single driver is fine. (say a single 8" woofer, 8W3v2 series) For symmetry, you can use dual 8's as well. They will require sealed enclosures.
Caution: Check with JL Tech Support to determine if the 300/2 can be used in Tri-mode applications and what the recommended impedence for the MB driver needs to be.
Confused? Relax, take a deep breath and we'll go through the details on a one-on-one basis. Take this in small steps, then refine the details of any stage that needs to be addressed in deeper detail. We're here to guide you through. With guys like Ash, Victor and myself, we won't let you down.
Swez
Victor on 04/27/2006 16:49:03
Here's something u cud use to understand tri-mode application
http://www.autohifi-world.com/fack/trimodpd.htm
Hope it helps..
Victor...
Almost al of the bridgeable amps are Tri-mode capable.
If you use a 4 ohm MB driver in trimode config then the total load each channel will see is 1.33ohms which is way below what the amp can take,its a sure No No ( tho u can definitely use 2 of those drivers and wire them in parallel for a total load of 8ohms and then use them in trimode )
a 6 ohm Mb driver will show the amp a total load of 1.71ohms per stereo channel which is again lower then what the amp is capable of ie. 2 ohm load in stereo = 4 ohm load mono., but u can run this config if u want more MB loudness and dont mind pushing your amp a bit.
An 8 ohm MB driver wud be perfect and will give a load of 2 ohms across each channel. Safest and most effective way to go.
Using passive components across each driver to filter unwanted frequencies would be the best here. so that the am does not have to work hard de to over lap of frequencies and even the speakers are saved of the extra effort in trying to re-produce signals they are not designed for.
If you cant understand the trimode application i wud suggest you read the amplifier bridging section first , here it is
http://www.autohifi-world.com/fack/bridging.htm
Ash on 04/27/2006 18:31:35
There's nothing to worry about Dem'. You are in good hands. Just take one step at a time to pinpoint any problems that arise or improvements made, and then you will know what the next step to take is. Keep us updated so we can continue to help you and don't be afraid to ask questions no matter how silly you think. That's how you learn!
demetman on 04/27/2006 19:54:44
Thanks guys, you have touched on areas I have never heard of. Tri mode amplification is a bit confusing and an area for further review. I have read my 300/2 manual a couple times and never came across any info on tri mode applications. I am friendly with Jose Rodrigues at JL technical support and will check in with him on tri mode capabilities of my 300/2.
I'm not at all worried about getting everything in and set up right. You guys are all brilliant and a HUGE help with all aspects here. As I mentioned, I will be tacking my good ol time with all parts of this project and I'm sure I'll have several questions along the way. I'm just one of those rare breeds that likes to be super organized with everything in line and well plot out before starting a project. Talk to you guys soon.
Demet
swez on 04/28/2006 09:54:44
A planner and seeker of the key details, is a skill set we all appreciate.
Nothing drives me buggy like a post that goes something like... "Hey guys, I just bought all this stuff, know nothing about how to hook it up".... HELP!!! I just cringe when I see that type of post. (silly me huh?)
Anyway, yes... call your JL guy and make sure the 300/2 can be used in the tri-mode configuration and what ohmic load is required (safe) to do so.
Swez
demetman on 05/1/2006 22:41:00
Guys, a call to JL today confirms a 300/2 can be operated in tri mode at any ohmic load above 1.5. The tech agrees that an 8 ohm MB driver would be the way to go here, however he does not believe there is a "true" MB driver rated at 8 ohms available these days. JL used to make one years ago but did away with it for one reason or another. Well, if there is a product out there that fits my needs, I'm sure you guys can find it. Can you guys help me understand the basic configuration using MB drivers as an addition to the a/d/s/ comps powered by the 300/2 in tri mode? How is the power seperated and delivered to each speaker in this mode? Thanks Guys
PS I received a new a/d/s/ 346 cs comp set via warrenty service from Directed Electronics today. These guys provided top notch service from beginning to end.
swez on 05/1/2006 23:51:04
Tri-mode operation explained:
http://www.bcae1.com/trimode.htm
Follow the other link included for more details. Here, we are looking at full range speakers and not a woofer, but rather a MB driver. The HPF is set at 80 Hz. Everything above that, passes through the full range speakers. However, the MB driver needs a Band Pass filter to knock out frequencies above ~300 Hz.
The net resistance target of 8 ohms is easily done with a 4+4 DVC in series, an 8 ohm SVC or two 4 ohm SVC's in series.
Want some test tones? Try these:
http://www.eminent-tech.com/music/multimediatest.html
Swez
Victor on 05/2/2006 01:33:20
Using an 8ohm MB driver in Trimode with a set of speakers and this amp,
Each channel will see the total load of 2 ohms each, this amp gives 150wrms @ 1.5 to 4ohms.. ie. at 2 ohms it will deliver 150wrms per channel,
In tri-mode the power distribution will be 75 wrms x 2 + 150 wrms x 1.
The Mb driver will get 150wrms and the other speakers will see 75wrms each.
So i guess the task at hand now should be looking for a good 8 ohm
125 wrms - 175wrms MB Driver.
Lets do some searching and get back ..COFFEE
Victor..
Victor on 05/2/2006 02:23:42
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3&Cat_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=490&manufacturer=&sm=1&so=2
http://edesignaudio.com/product.php?cid=15&pid=32&tab=Specs&cur=USD
demetman on 05/2/2006 10:31:25
The above tri mode diagrams appear to be powering 2 full range speakers and a woofer. Will a tri mode application with the 300/2 allow me to power my a/d/s/ comp set, and a set of MB drivers to compliment each door? Will the MB driver even be selected for a door mount or sealed application?
Victor on 05/2/2006 11:35:14
Oh,,, so u looking at a set of speakers.....
What we thought was that just like many high end SQ systems you are looking for a mono signal MB driver placed in the centre of the dash to enhance bass upfront.
If you are looking for a set of MB playing stereo signal and in the doors, then the wiring becomes very easy, you dont need to use the Tri-mode configuration then,
All you do is wire each MB and Comp set in parallel to the respective channel.
Take a set of 4ohm MB drivers in the power range of 75-100wrms and wire them like this...
. +MB and +comp to +amp, -MB and -comp to -amp. do this on both channels.
This will show a total ohmic load of 2 ohms on each channel, and the amp will be giving u 150wrms per channel,
This 150wrms will split equally between the comp set and the MB driver and each will get 75wrms.
This is not a bad way either.
Depends on what you are aiming at.
Victor..
you may need a passive bandpass Xover to cut down extreme low and MR / highs to insure good performance, you wud not like giving a speaker the frequencies its not meant to handle.
demetman on 05/2/2006 15:04:42
Victor, your wiring instructions seem simple but what about the a/d/s/ crossover network? Should I have assumed on running 1 wire from right channel amp+ to tweeter+ in on crossover network and 1 wire from right channel amp- to woofer- on crossover network. Then running directly from right channel amp+ to MB driver+ terminal and from right channel amp- to MB driver- terminal? Then the same thing for the other channel, comp set and MB driver. Am I on the right track here or a distant planet? Also Swez, turned me on to an Audio Control EQS 6 channel trunk mount EQ. Could this piece of equipment be used to filter unwanted frequancies to MB driver assuming my above interpretation of wiring is correct? Thanks
Victor on 05/2/2006 15:55:01
Yes you are right, but dont forget to keep the switch in the Xover on parallel mode.
http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/og/ads-mobile/G39301.06_04-04.pdf
See page 10 for detailed diagram,
And No the Audio control EQS is an equaliser and not an Xover, you may want to have a look at
http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14144&d_Id=5247&l1=5247&l2=
This is an equaliser with a 2/3 way fully adjustable electronic Xover.
Its a bit pricey but its worth every penny.
Victor..
demetman on 05/2/2006 17:21:05
Ok Victor I see what you are saying. That Audio Control DQX looks like a nice piece and fairly user friendly as well. I would assume the wires from each amp channel would run to DQX and directly to MB driver with the signal filtered within a set range. If this is correct all I need is some advice on MB drivers and where to install for best options (keeping in mind this will be by far the most challenging install for me to date).
Victor on 05/2/2006 23:41:41
http://myeporia.eporia.com/Resources/Company_38/DQX_OM.pdf
see page 5
You may ask about the MB amplification in this case, a new 2 ch amp just dedicated to the MB drivers.
depends on how much u wanna spend on the install, or another way out is just use a passive bandpass Xover, ( just like the one u have with the a/d/s comps , with the MB driver too)
or
use a 3 way passive Xover to wire the Mb, and the comp mb and tweeter all to one 3 way Xover and let the a/d/s Xover lie in ur garage.
If done well all the 3 ways can give you really good sound, ofcourse each of them have some pro's and con's, but as far as the install is done well i dont see any negative issue with either of the setups.
Hope it helps.
Victor..
since u are one of the kinds who is really enthusiastic and willing to learn am just guiding you to the right resources. Ofcourse we are all here to help you incase you dont understand something or are stuck in some place.
swez on 05/3/2006 11:46:36
If you add MB drivers to this system, remember the operational frequency range of a MB system is very narrow in range. (typically ~60-300 Hz.)
The trick here, is to employ a passive LP crossover network that filters out the highs, above 300 Hz. Your amp settings on the HP crossover are already set to what, 80 Hz.?
Now, If you use a pair of MB drivers, Victor's suggestion of wiring each one (4 ohm driver) in parallel to each amp outputs, is correct. If you chose a stand alone MB driver, it will be an 8 ohm driver, wired in tri-mode configuration. Again a LP, passive filter will be used.
FYI: MR drivers operate in a very limited range of frequencies. High efficieincy drivers are best here. Also, MB is similar to bass frequencies. They are not very directional at this frequency range. So, one driver in an enclosure is a possible option, run as mono mode.
Also, a decent EQ system can really help bring up the MB sound in your vehicle. Door mounted, dual drivers are a good option too. This way, you'll have stereo MB performance. (Nice for guitar, drum kit toms, piano, synth and upper bass guitar registers.
Question: Your rear speakers... what size are they now?
Swez
demetman on 05/3/2006 15:50:15
Swez, I think the rear door speakers are 5.75"(I will be confirming this as soon as I get vehicle vin#) My 300/2 is back in the box, but yes LP is set to 80Hz. Guys, maybe adding MB drivers using the 300/2 just isn't optimal or practical for that matter. I really don't have a problem trying to sell the 300/2 and starting fresh with a JL450/4. The Magnum has a huge trunk area, so maybe I can incorporate one or even two 8" subs in a sealed enclosure rear firing(to handle MB range) with the 12w7. Each driver(s) will be responsible for a given frequancy range. The channels producing 75wrms will power the comp set in the front doors allowing for a higher crossover point and the 150wrms channels can be used to power two 8" subs(MB) or bridged for 300wrms to 1 sub(MB). I would certainly use the DQS in this situation and If need a little help with more highs, I could power efficient full range speakers in the rear door from HU.
Does this idea sound ok? I'm just sitting here thinking of different ideas. As you guys can see, I am willing to spend some money on a quality set up here. I do not plan on any major upgrades after this project so I need to get things right first round. Again sorry for switching gears like this, but fortunatelly I am in a possition where I can do anything I want with this vehicle. I value your input, opinions, comments and suggestions. Thanks
swez on 05/3/2006 17:18:06
Indeed, you have plenty of flexibility going forward and why not look at the options. You have some prior experiences, know the options we have outlined so far and see that we are indeed here to help you achieve your goals.
Since this is basically a station wagon, SUV and hatchback hybrid, you will find this vehicle has many desirable audio characteristics over the PU truck. The Magnum is equipped with 6.5" speakers. It will accomodate your A/D/S Comps up front and 6.5" MB in the rear, plus your sub.
This vehicle can become a bit bass heavy if you use all that 1000/1 and the 12W7 at full tilt boogey. But, this is more than managable with a remote bass controller for the 1000/1.
If you use efficient MB drivers in the rear panels, I don't think you'll need any additional re-enforecement. (additional MB drivers, combined with the sub box)
Chew on things a bit as you have the time and patience to do so.
Swez
demetman on 05/3/2006 19:57:56
Good advice Swez! I think I'm just going to kick back and think things over a while. I am aware of the extensive bass responce potential of the sub/amp pairing planned. I'd like to have that vicious bass available if I'm in the mood for it. Mostly intriquite music and such as Frank Zappa, Rush, Floyd and guitar slayers such as Roy Buchanan, Steve Vai, Satriani etc.
I am going to start sourcing and ordering the bulk of my equipment now while things are still slow at work. I'll be back when question pop up, and advice is needed.
Oh, I made an appointment with the GM at car audio shop for tomorrow morning. I am super prepared with a typed "Documented Installation Issues" sheet outlining in great detail all issues and evidence to back up my claims. I also printed all the pictures that will show the GM what a disgracefull job his tech performened. All good stuff Swez, you would be proud.
PS how ya macking out with the trout fishing?
swez on 05/3/2006 23:27:01
I hope your meeting with the GM all works out well. Just remember, there are often more than 2 sides to every transaction... thier side, your expectations and somewhere in the middle is reality. Since you have everything well documented, pics to prove what was done and such, this should work in your favor.
The main thing to consider here, is what you think is a fair and reasonable deal for the botched install. As long as you know what you believe to be reasonable and fair, the GM is likely to work with you and meet somewhere in the middle. Good luck!
Trout fishing is very slow at the moment. We see them, they see us and I can even wade within 30 feet of them at times. They like to tease us with areobatic jumps, side flashes and hunkering down in slow pools. I have hooked 2-3 already, but yet to land one. Will try again soon as the weather and schedule permits. My brother, (an expert fly-fisherman) has yet to catch any either. So, if he's not getting them, we are just not "in the pockets" at the right time for them to turn on and bite.
Went out yesterday with my twin brother to the Maumee River in Toledo, OH. The walleye are just about done with their spawning run and the white bass are now moving up the river now. It rained a good part of the day and I got soaked to the bone, but loved it anyway. Funny thing about walleye, the worse the weather, the better they bite.
I had a slip and almost went down into this river too. The slate rock bottom is slippery as snot on a freshly waxed floor. Couple that with a lot of algae on the rocks, a strong current and deep water... it was like waking on ice with leather soled shoes in a stiff wind. Dicey at best.
Water clarity was about 4 inches at best. Once one is ankle deep in these coffee-colored waters, you cannot see your feet, much less obstructions, ledges and the rip-rap. Whoowie... it was very interesting, to say the least.
In short, we managed 4 nice walleye, 4 white bass and gave the river a lot of tackle that day. Am glad the season is almost over now and I won't be going back until next season. Do you know any good "Slip and Fall" Lawyers? Back to the trout and bass rivers we know well... Thank you very much...
Anyway, take your time and mull over the new project. It looks like the A/D/S Comps will fit in the front. You can use 6.5" MB drivers in the rear. Once the vehicle is in hand, scope it out and see what possible options you may have. Shoot a few pics and put them up on photo-bucket, so we can see what you have to work with. Then, we'll help you sort out options that work.
The DQS is a very nice tool for an advanced SQL install. You have 6 channels of output available, 5 amp channels and all sorts of crossover options too. Am sure this project will be much better in your hands, now that you know what makes a quality install.
Swez
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