Swez,
Just thought I'd shout out to you since you are familiar with my system and have helped me out recently.
I was in Tweeter for some cables for my tv today and iniatiated a conversation with a car stereo tech regarding my install. I explained the shut down issues of my amps and explained the steps taken to correct the issue. I currently have a 4awg power cable running from the battery to a distribution block and 4awg wire going from there to the each amp.(500/1 & 300/2) The tech(JL certified) thinks the power cable should be 2awg and the amps may be fighting for power causing a shut down. He used the analogy" it's like trying to drink a milk shake through a coffee straw". Any thoughts? Should I upgrade power cable to 2awg or maybe run seperate 4awg bypassing distribution block to 500/1? Thanks for any input.
Replies (8)
swez on 04/2/2006 19:26:42
I'd have to agree with him in most respects. It seems we had this chat a while back too. A #4 is good between 80-100A of current, depending on the length of the wire. For peace of mind, if the wire run is over 12 feet, (3.5 meters) a #2 will have less voltage losses then same length of #4.
However, there may be other issues that are causing the amps to shut down at higher volumes. A multimeter is the right tool for this test process. If you can induce the system to shut down while measuring voltage at the amp B+ terminals, that could give us some hidden clues.
Do both amps shut down together or just one at a time?
Swez
PS Trout season opens this week near here. Am waiting for my new rod to arrive. Once it comes, out we go. I hope to get a lot more time in the water this season too. I am pretty geeked for the season starter.
demetman on 04/2/2006 20:07:49
Nothing like the anticipation of a season opener with a fresh stick. If memory serves me right you enjoy throwing flies. here on the East Coast Striper fishing is starting to turn on heavy. This is spawning time where large female salt water Stripers(up to 80#) move into the back bays, rivers and sounds to spawn. This is when trophy fish are caught.
When I measure voltage at B+ terminals do I measure the positive and negative terminals where the sub speaker wires connect to the amp? How do I measure the voltage at shutdown for the 300/2 with wires feeding to all four terminals? Middle positive and negative channels maybe?
Thanks
swez on 04/3/2006 00:35:08
B+ is the main power lead lug to an amp. (not speaker outs) Here, we measure DC voltage at the B+ and grounding lug. Observe polarity of leads and expect a general reading between 12.5 - 14.0 volts DC.
Also, measure the voltage at the BAT terminals and compare results between the two reference points.
Steps:
1. Start the car, no other systems running (headlights, HVAC or audio)
2. Measure the DC voltage at the BAT terminals. (13.5 -14.5+)
3. Turn on your headlights and measure again (some voltage drop at BAT may be noted)
4. Now, turn on your audio gear and measure BAT terminals and B+/gnd on both amps (record your readings)
5. Dial up the Audio gear and monitor B+/gnd DC voltage (until the amps shut off)
6. When amps cut out, measure voltage at BAT terminals again
Do you see a voltage drop at amps VS BAT? If under 0.5 VDC, your electrical system is doing a good job with #4 wires. If the voltage drop is greater than 0.5 VDC, the wire is not doing the job.
UPGRADE TO #2 WIRE KIT IS A GOOD IDEA. (No, am not shouting either)
Depending on your voltage reading differential between BAT terminals and B+/gnd on amps, this will help determine if #2 wire is needed.
I have 1 additional test for you later. Do this phase first. Once you have the numbers, we'll have a look at something else.
Also, when the amps cut out, do the power lights stay on? Do you see protect lamps illuminated?
Swez
PS Yeah, Strippers are like the freight trains of salt or fresh water bass. My ol' fishing buddy is now doing PR for a Guide Service in TN/AR. He landed a 40# Stripper on 3/16/06. What a beauty female it was too. When I saw his website photos and comments... I was in dream land and very happy for him.
I hear the Salt water Strippers can get very large. But frankly, I don't have the gear for this species. On light lines, a 10-15# fish is more than a fight on fly gear. If I can find a few 5# Samllies or Large Mouth Bass this year, that is more than a thrill.
Yeah, we tie our own bugs. Some are surface only, some sub-surface and some are bottom bumpers. However, we are using 4-12 lbs test tippets. It's all about finess, patience and managing a heavy fish in the currents of a river with logs, bolders and under-cuts. Keeping the fish off balance at all times, is the key to landing a big one on light lines. (And having enough reserve backing to allow for long runs)
I am really looking forward to a bigger season than last years' great season. Yeah, I am a rookie... bet have landed a few nice ones already. The best part, is being in the great outdoors and enjoying the solitude, my twin bro and any given lake or stream. It's the next best thing to Heaven.
demetman on 04/4/2006 16:32:55
Hey Swez,
I performed all tests you requested and results are as follows
DC voltage at battery terminals nothing on.....................14.7V
DC voltage at battery terminals, headlights on................14.3V
DC voltage at battery terminals everything on..................14.0V
DC voltage at 500/1 B+ & ground...................................11.4V
DC voltage at 300/2B+ & ground....................................11.9V
DC voltage at 500/1 at shutdown....................................11.0V
DC voltage at 300/2 at shutdown....................................10.3V
This time only 300/2 would shut down during high volume with fans + headlights on. The highs would cut out and the bass would continue. The thermal light would not illuminate on eather amp, but the power light dimed like my head lights used to. This leads me to believe, high voltage drops are occuring between battery and amps.
4awg power wire with 150 anl fuse runs from battery terminals to distribution block. 4awg power wire feeds from block to each amp. The 300/2 is closest to the block.
Whachya think bud?
swez on 04/5/2006 00:13:45
Severe voltage drop at both amps here friend. A #2 wire is appropriate and perhaps a thought to move the amp grounds too.
This voltage loss is very high. We for a differential of ~0.5 volts between BAT & amp B+ terminals. Here, we see 3.0 volts on the 500/1 and 3.7 volts on the 300/2. I think this is at the root of your problems.
A #4 wire is designed to carry 80-100A's, depending on length of the wire. If this install was done at a shop, they should be shot at sun rise!
Also, have you done the "Big 3" upgrade here? That should help too.
Basically, if you get a solid 13.5 VDC at the BAT, your amps should be very close to 13.0 volts. I think you proved my point. Grasshoppa!
Swez
demetman on 04/5/2006 01:14:40
Looks like I'm taking a trip to installer tomorrow with test results and asking for a 2awg amp kit. When I think of all the work I have done to my truck after the "professional" install I get so steamed. Yes I have done my BIG 3, new 160amp alternator, Optima yellowtop and gold connectors and battery terminals. The ground for both amps is the bolt that fastends my driver side car seat to the floor(the bar that my seat slides foreward and backward on) I have been looking at that ground funny for a while now. I will change the ground to direct chassis, sanded and bebris free.
Again thanks for schooling me with basic but extremelly valuable multimeter skills. I will touch base wth you after this mess is straightened out.
Demetrios
lewis on 04/5/2006 01:25:24
the jl amps are rated 11-14.5 volts if your 300/2 is dipping to 10.3 then the protection is probly kicking in or its just shutting off...
i personally have the same setup (well had the same set up) 500/1 and 300/2 ran on 4 awg
i have had my amps shutdown before (once or twice) and just figured that it wasnt getting enough juice so i bought an optima yellow top, also i had about 3 feet of 0/1 awg left over from a friends install and used it for a ground (dont know if it helps or not but i dont think it would hurt). after that ive never had a problem with it shutting off but still got headlight dimming at extreme volumes.
swez on 04/5/2006 08:40:04
I think the grounds may have something to do with your lack of voltage at the amps, but a #2 WIRE KIT seems very appropriate at the level of voltage loss noted on each amp, when they crap out on you.
Frankly, I would buy the #2 gage wire, a D-block if needed and use the #4 wire off the D-block for each amp. A pair of #4 wires for grounds are also appropriate, well grounded to the floor pan. (2-3 foot grounds are good) Then, work out a deal with the shop regarding install fees. You should not have to pay full boat for a re-install that was not done well the 1st time.
Swez
PS If you buy your wire from this shop, they are likely to charge you big bucks on materials, to make up for the loss in labor fees. BYO supplies if possible.
Just thought I'd shout out to you since you are familiar with my system and have helped me out recently.
I was in Tweeter for some cables for my tv today and iniatiated a conversation with a car stereo tech regarding my install. I explained the shut down issues of my amps and explained the steps taken to correct the issue. I currently have a 4awg power cable running from the battery to a distribution block and 4awg wire going from there to the each amp.(500/1 & 300/2) The tech(JL certified) thinks the power cable should be 2awg and the amps may be fighting for power causing a shut down. He used the analogy" it's like trying to drink a milk shake through a coffee straw". Any thoughts? Should I upgrade power cable to 2awg or maybe run seperate 4awg bypassing distribution block to 500/1? Thanks for any input.
Replies (8)
swez on 04/2/2006 19:26:42
I'd have to agree with him in most respects. It seems we had this chat a while back too. A #4 is good between 80-100A of current, depending on the length of the wire. For peace of mind, if the wire run is over 12 feet, (3.5 meters) a #2 will have less voltage losses then same length of #4.
However, there may be other issues that are causing the amps to shut down at higher volumes. A multimeter is the right tool for this test process. If you can induce the system to shut down while measuring voltage at the amp B+ terminals, that could give us some hidden clues.
Do both amps shut down together or just one at a time?
Swez
PS Trout season opens this week near here. Am waiting for my new rod to arrive. Once it comes, out we go. I hope to get a lot more time in the water this season too. I am pretty geeked for the season starter.
demetman on 04/2/2006 20:07:49
Nothing like the anticipation of a season opener with a fresh stick. If memory serves me right you enjoy throwing flies. here on the East Coast Striper fishing is starting to turn on heavy. This is spawning time where large female salt water Stripers(up to 80#) move into the back bays, rivers and sounds to spawn. This is when trophy fish are caught.
When I measure voltage at B+ terminals do I measure the positive and negative terminals where the sub speaker wires connect to the amp? How do I measure the voltage at shutdown for the 300/2 with wires feeding to all four terminals? Middle positive and negative channels maybe?
Thanks
swez on 04/3/2006 00:35:08
B+ is the main power lead lug to an amp. (not speaker outs) Here, we measure DC voltage at the B+ and grounding lug. Observe polarity of leads and expect a general reading between 12.5 - 14.0 volts DC.
Also, measure the voltage at the BAT terminals and compare results between the two reference points.
Steps:
1. Start the car, no other systems running (headlights, HVAC or audio)
2. Measure the DC voltage at the BAT terminals. (13.5 -14.5+)
3. Turn on your headlights and measure again (some voltage drop at BAT may be noted)
4. Now, turn on your audio gear and measure BAT terminals and B+/gnd on both amps (record your readings)
5. Dial up the Audio gear and monitor B+/gnd DC voltage (until the amps shut off)
6. When amps cut out, measure voltage at BAT terminals again
Do you see a voltage drop at amps VS BAT? If under 0.5 VDC, your electrical system is doing a good job with #4 wires. If the voltage drop is greater than 0.5 VDC, the wire is not doing the job.
UPGRADE TO #2 WIRE KIT IS A GOOD IDEA. (No, am not shouting either)
Depending on your voltage reading differential between BAT terminals and B+/gnd on amps, this will help determine if #2 wire is needed.
I have 1 additional test for you later. Do this phase first. Once you have the numbers, we'll have a look at something else.
Also, when the amps cut out, do the power lights stay on? Do you see protect lamps illuminated?
Swez
PS Yeah, Strippers are like the freight trains of salt or fresh water bass. My ol' fishing buddy is now doing PR for a Guide Service in TN/AR. He landed a 40# Stripper on 3/16/06. What a beauty female it was too. When I saw his website photos and comments... I was in dream land and very happy for him.
I hear the Salt water Strippers can get very large. But frankly, I don't have the gear for this species. On light lines, a 10-15# fish is more than a fight on fly gear. If I can find a few 5# Samllies or Large Mouth Bass this year, that is more than a thrill.
Yeah, we tie our own bugs. Some are surface only, some sub-surface and some are bottom bumpers. However, we are using 4-12 lbs test tippets. It's all about finess, patience and managing a heavy fish in the currents of a river with logs, bolders and under-cuts. Keeping the fish off balance at all times, is the key to landing a big one on light lines. (And having enough reserve backing to allow for long runs)
I am really looking forward to a bigger season than last years' great season. Yeah, I am a rookie... bet have landed a few nice ones already. The best part, is being in the great outdoors and enjoying the solitude, my twin bro and any given lake or stream. It's the next best thing to Heaven.
demetman on 04/4/2006 16:32:55
Hey Swez,
I performed all tests you requested and results are as follows
DC voltage at battery terminals nothing on.....................14.7V
DC voltage at battery terminals, headlights on................14.3V
DC voltage at battery terminals everything on..................14.0V
DC voltage at 500/1 B+ & ground...................................11.4V
DC voltage at 300/2B+ & ground....................................11.9V
DC voltage at 500/1 at shutdown....................................11.0V
DC voltage at 300/2 at shutdown....................................10.3V
This time only 300/2 would shut down during high volume with fans + headlights on. The highs would cut out and the bass would continue. The thermal light would not illuminate on eather amp, but the power light dimed like my head lights used to. This leads me to believe, high voltage drops are occuring between battery and amps.
4awg power wire with 150 anl fuse runs from battery terminals to distribution block. 4awg power wire feeds from block to each amp. The 300/2 is closest to the block.
Whachya think bud?
swez on 04/5/2006 00:13:45
Severe voltage drop at both amps here friend. A #2 wire is appropriate and perhaps a thought to move the amp grounds too.
This voltage loss is very high. We for a differential of ~0.5 volts between BAT & amp B+ terminals. Here, we see 3.0 volts on the 500/1 and 3.7 volts on the 300/2. I think this is at the root of your problems.
A #4 wire is designed to carry 80-100A's, depending on length of the wire. If this install was done at a shop, they should be shot at sun rise!
Also, have you done the "Big 3" upgrade here? That should help too.
Basically, if you get a solid 13.5 VDC at the BAT, your amps should be very close to 13.0 volts. I think you proved my point. Grasshoppa!
Swez
demetman on 04/5/2006 01:14:40
Looks like I'm taking a trip to installer tomorrow with test results and asking for a 2awg amp kit. When I think of all the work I have done to my truck after the "professional" install I get so steamed. Yes I have done my BIG 3, new 160amp alternator, Optima yellowtop and gold connectors and battery terminals. The ground for both amps is the bolt that fastends my driver side car seat to the floor(the bar that my seat slides foreward and backward on) I have been looking at that ground funny for a while now. I will change the ground to direct chassis, sanded and bebris free.
Again thanks for schooling me with basic but extremelly valuable multimeter skills. I will touch base wth you after this mess is straightened out.
Demetrios
lewis on 04/5/2006 01:25:24
the jl amps are rated 11-14.5 volts if your 300/2 is dipping to 10.3 then the protection is probly kicking in or its just shutting off...
i personally have the same setup (well had the same set up) 500/1 and 300/2 ran on 4 awg
i have had my amps shutdown before (once or twice) and just figured that it wasnt getting enough juice so i bought an optima yellow top, also i had about 3 feet of 0/1 awg left over from a friends install and used it for a ground (dont know if it helps or not but i dont think it would hurt). after that ive never had a problem with it shutting off but still got headlight dimming at extreme volumes.
swez on 04/5/2006 08:40:04
I think the grounds may have something to do with your lack of voltage at the amps, but a #2 WIRE KIT seems very appropriate at the level of voltage loss noted on each amp, when they crap out on you.
Frankly, I would buy the #2 gage wire, a D-block if needed and use the #4 wire off the D-block for each amp. A pair of #4 wires for grounds are also appropriate, well grounded to the floor pan. (2-3 foot grounds are good) Then, work out a deal with the shop regarding install fees. You should not have to pay full boat for a re-install that was not done well the 1st time.
Swez
PS If you buy your wire from this shop, they are likely to charge you big bucks on materials, to make up for the loss in labor fees. BYO supplies if possible.
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