is it all the same or does dynamat kick them all outta the water? if there is others that is a lil cheaper then dynamat but still does the job i would like to know and where can i get some ? im in a pinch for cash b/c i just got a kicker L7.
Replies (14)
Victor on 03/31/2006 05:24:48
Personally I have not found a major difference in the results between the spray and mats....Depends a lot on what area you are willing to sound damp, if its more of a flatter surface then using mats is easier and faster ,.while there are some corners of the car where it is practically imposible to get your hand in to place the mats, here using the spray or the paint becomes much easier,
Working with mats is a neat and clean process, while the paint or spray could get messy if you cant handle it well.
I have used many out there in the market and for mats have found the "Rammat" much better in terms of Price/Performance ratio.
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/
http://www.raamaudio.com/
I have liked using the paint from e-designs, its called the "e-dead V3".
http://edesignaudio.com/category.php?type=damp
Have never really used many sprays , just used one by 3M, and it was very effective but equally pricey stuff,.
Also for Vibration Damping i would prefer the paint or the spray, cause it takes the shape of the metal moulds and when sprayed evenly reinforces the metal sheets to a great extent and checks over the vibrations.
Where as for sound damping purpose, the mats I feel are more effective cause they affect the reflective-absorbtive properties of the interiors of a car.
Both vibration and sound damping are closely related , but understanding the difference between the two is very important.
But generally either the mat/spray/paint will address both the sound as well as vibration damping in different ratio's.
Along with the damping properties the sprays and paint have an anti-corrosive agent which will also help keep the metal body or your car rust free.
There are pro's and con's to each of these materials, The selection depends on your application, budget, ease of installation, and personal choice.
Dynamat is definitely good, but expensive too...fatmat, e-dead or Rammat will be equally effective and at a much cheaper price.
Ordering directly from the company is also easy, and all these companies can ship you the minimal amount without an issue.
here are the company websites,
http://www.fatmat.com/
http://www.b-quiet.com/
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?_scb=1
http://www.dynamat.com/
http://www.raamaudio.com/
http://www.cascadeaudio.com/aut.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/category.php?type=damp&cur=USD
All of them will have sales reps who can help you with the payment and shipping procedures.
All of the above mentioned will perform well, its just a matter of pricing and how easily they are accessible to you.
The best adhesions I have found on vertical surfaces are 3M and Dynamat rubber (vinyl / butyl ) based mats, but they are as costly as titanium..
Among the decently priced are the rammat, e-dead , fatmat, and B-quiet. These are all rubberized mats too,
Altho I have not found a major issue with using Asphalt based products on vertical surfaces but the only problem i found with asphalt is the almost permanent foul smell it gives to the interiors of the car.
this one i have not used, but seems to be a nice combo of rubber & asphalt, ... the asphalt gives the mat good amount of weight where as the rubber insures good linking and bonding..
http://www.sounddeadeningmaterial.com/whatisit.html
I guess. ultimately all of them are not too far apart on the number line, like I said, its just a matter of pricing and how easily they are accessible to you.
well, I would not suggest buying door or trunk kits, they turn up to be expensive compared to buying in loose bulk..
All you would need with that kind of a setup is doing up the trunk and doors.. A 50sq.ft package would do the trick.. In case you decide to do up the floor too then 90-100sqft would be enough.
Hope this helps..
Victor...
ckoscin2 on 03/31/2006 05:40:19
well thanks victor...that was fast its 5:30am here and i am just going to bed. i never would have thought to get an answer that fast
ttocs on 03/31/2006 08:19:38
I have used a few and the only difference I have found is in the products ability to remain on the surface it sticks to. ALWAYS make sure to prep the are by cleaning it to help it. I put Brown Bread in my truck 2 yrs ago and it has survived well for 2 yrs. If it can survive 2 phoenix summers, I'm sold.........
ckoscin2 on 03/31/2006 19:09:51
what shold i do to prep the area of my trunk that i am going to use it in?
MrBrownstone on 03/31/2006 19:48:22
Performance-wise, they are all created equal. BAsically, what you need to do is add mass to your body panels to stop the vibrating. You can accomplish this with 'magic sound damping' putty, spray, or sheets of matting.
Of course, you can also use cow dung, mud, bondo, or anything that is heavy. The main importance is to add mass to the panels and to keep it their. Other than that, it's just a matter of packaging the same product 15 different ways.
Victor on 04/1/2006 09:50:55
cow dung...hehehehehe... wonder how they would package that one...GRIN
swez on 04/1/2006 18:33:15
Dried and then sandwiched? Only thing, if cow dung get wet, it will fall apart and probably smell pretty foul too.
Mr. B. once again, you are wrong about all matting being created equal. Not even close pal. The asphalt stuff stinks, hard to shape and many don't stick well on vertical or inverted intsalls. Some tend to delaminate over time, temperature extremes and compositions used. Victor did a very indepth review and looked at many new products and their attributes. The days of wide netted generalizations are gone.
Rubberized mats seem to have a definite edge as they are dense, easily formed and molded and stick well to any clean surfaces in any orientation.
The paint on deadeners have some real promise in hard to reach places. Just need to get the feel for the materials, how they lay out and how many coats are adequate for the application.
Man, it's not 1997 anymore bud! Things are a changing for the better in most cases. The new products out there now, have so many new features, better performance and last longer than old paper cone drivers.
Anyway, it's nice to offer some color commentary as you see fit. But this is service based forum now. Technology, materials and new manufacturing techniques are happening every few months. The rest is just obsolete.
FYI: It's not like the days when one could set up a web site, pimp audio deals at 20% over cost and hope it did not come back later. Well, they can do it on e-bay I guess. But even there, the top end stuff is well presented, priced to move and to the savvy buyer, great deals are out there.
Yes, warranty issues are something to consider, but if we buy the good stuff and don't abuse, misues or other wise screw things up, most gear should last a long time.
Please, get on the right bus and strut your new stuff. The old rehash ain't working no more. Geez-O-Peas
Swez
ttocs on 04/1/2006 19:48:22
I agree with swez..... In '97 none of the deadoners held for any length of time. I can prove this by showing you the dynamat that I installed when I bought the truck new in '97. I laid it in the extended cab under the carpet and when I looked at it 3 weeks ago, it is not sticking any more, and is not it one piece either. The brown bread I installed on the rear deck a few years ago sticks as strong today as it ever did.
MrBrownstone on 04/1/2006 21:41:04
I was speaking to the sound deadening capability...that of which your right hand is just as good as the left hand.
As far as adhesive quality, who says you need a 'sound proofing' product? You can use baked goods. He was asking if dynomat blew everyone out of the water...which the answer is no.
That's my point. If it sticks to the surface of your car, it's created equally. Since 1989, noone has made an improvement in the design, only the marketing of these products.
Some of them smell a lot, some don't. What I was getting at is that you can use household products, roofing products, or anything that adds mass to your car.
swez on 04/2/2006 13:22:47
Don't mean to pick on ya bud. But things have changed a lot in the last 2-5 years. All mats are not created equal.
Yes, most mats will stick to a clean surface initially. But, some brands delaminate over time with heat/cold and humidity. The adhesive to panel may remain intact, but the inner layers can peel back in time. Not a big problem of horizontal panels like the trunk & floor pan.
However, in doors, side panels and trunk lids, the adhesive may/may not stay put or the sandwich layers fall apart and drop down or fall off.
Yes, the original concept is the same, but performance of newer materials are much better then even a few years ago. That's all I am pointing out... One Size (type) does not fit all applications!!!
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/2/2006 16:24:45
What I was getting at, and it seems a lost concept, is that you can go to Home Depot, spend $100 and do the same thing as any of the dynomat-typed products. The difference, for $100, you get $1000 of dynamat performance.
Vblock, dynamat, brown bread, pick your product--it doesn't matter. As far as adhesive, most people misapply the product, and that's why it doesn't stick.
What I'm getting at is there are no new materials. It's the same crap, under better marketing. One product fits all applications, and it doesn't even need to be purchased at a car audio store.
It's wasted breath. Spend what you want, it doesn't matter. This is a useless conversation, and I'm done with it.
swez on 04/2/2006 19:14:16
OK, we can agree on some parts and choose to disagree on others. It does not matter.
When I spoke of delaminations, what happends here, the adhesive layer still sticks to original surfaces. But, the bulky mass that provides the main source of deadening, breaks away from the adhesive and slides down say into the door panel and just lies there.
Other than that, the subject matter is pretty much a dead issue.
Swez
lessismorespl on 04/4/2006 10:59:23
Actually, sound dampening goes deeper than just adhesive ability, and does much more than just add mass to panels, although this is one of the primary reasons for using it.
Sound Dampening has several purposes:
1. Add Mass to panels to limit vibrations.
2. Seal an enclosed area, such as a trunk for the purpose of improved sound reflection.
3. Eliminate a large percentage of road noise from entering the vehicle, therefore improving overall SQ.
4. Eliminate sound from escaping vehicle which improves sound reflection and SPL, as well as keeps the locals happy at red lights.
Many argue this point in several forums, in the shop, etc.... I am presently hitting 148.6 dB's, unless my windows are down or the door is open, you would never imagine it was that loud b/c it can barely be heard 10ft from the vehicle.
There are right ways to dampen and wrong ways. Not all are created equal. Sprays work best in hard to reach areas, but need 3 or 4 coats to be effective, mat works better in flat areas.
The ones I suggest are Dynamat Extreme, B-Quiet Extreme/Ultimate, or FatMat. I have used over 20 products over the years, as well as home versions and bedliners, roofing material etc.... These work best and produce the best result. As for prepping the area, use a good degreaser and scrub it nice and clean, let it dry good, like a day or 2, then either do it in the sun under 75+ degree heat or slightly heat the area it is to be applied to....use a good roller to make sure it contacts good and seales properly.
less
swez on 04/4/2006 15:50:06
Ditto! I have found "Simple Green" to be an excellent cleaner and degreaser for many applications. Just spray on, wipe off and allow to dry before starting the job.
FYI: The Industrial strength version needs to be cut with water as it is very strong and may damage painted surfaces.
Swez
Replies (14)
Victor on 03/31/2006 05:24:48
Personally I have not found a major difference in the results between the spray and mats....Depends a lot on what area you are willing to sound damp, if its more of a flatter surface then using mats is easier and faster ,.while there are some corners of the car where it is practically imposible to get your hand in to place the mats, here using the spray or the paint becomes much easier,
Working with mats is a neat and clean process, while the paint or spray could get messy if you cant handle it well.
I have used many out there in the market and for mats have found the "Rammat" much better in terms of Price/Performance ratio.
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/
http://www.raamaudio.com/
I have liked using the paint from e-designs, its called the "e-dead V3".
http://edesignaudio.com/category.php?type=damp
Have never really used many sprays , just used one by 3M, and it was very effective but equally pricey stuff,.
Also for Vibration Damping i would prefer the paint or the spray, cause it takes the shape of the metal moulds and when sprayed evenly reinforces the metal sheets to a great extent and checks over the vibrations.
Where as for sound damping purpose, the mats I feel are more effective cause they affect the reflective-absorbtive properties of the interiors of a car.
Both vibration and sound damping are closely related , but understanding the difference between the two is very important.
But generally either the mat/spray/paint will address both the sound as well as vibration damping in different ratio's.
Along with the damping properties the sprays and paint have an anti-corrosive agent which will also help keep the metal body or your car rust free.
There are pro's and con's to each of these materials, The selection depends on your application, budget, ease of installation, and personal choice.
Dynamat is definitely good, but expensive too...fatmat, e-dead or Rammat will be equally effective and at a much cheaper price.
Ordering directly from the company is also easy, and all these companies can ship you the minimal amount without an issue.
here are the company websites,
http://www.fatmat.com/
http://www.b-quiet.com/
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?_scb=1
http://www.dynamat.com/
http://www.raamaudio.com/
http://www.cascadeaudio.com/aut.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/category.php?type=damp&cur=USD
All of them will have sales reps who can help you with the payment and shipping procedures.
All of the above mentioned will perform well, its just a matter of pricing and how easily they are accessible to you.
The best adhesions I have found on vertical surfaces are 3M and Dynamat rubber (vinyl / butyl ) based mats, but they are as costly as titanium..
Among the decently priced are the rammat, e-dead , fatmat, and B-quiet. These are all rubberized mats too,
Altho I have not found a major issue with using Asphalt based products on vertical surfaces but the only problem i found with asphalt is the almost permanent foul smell it gives to the interiors of the car.
this one i have not used, but seems to be a nice combo of rubber & asphalt, ... the asphalt gives the mat good amount of weight where as the rubber insures good linking and bonding..
http://www.sounddeadeningmaterial.com/whatisit.html
I guess. ultimately all of them are not too far apart on the number line, like I said, its just a matter of pricing and how easily they are accessible to you.
well, I would not suggest buying door or trunk kits, they turn up to be expensive compared to buying in loose bulk..
All you would need with that kind of a setup is doing up the trunk and doors.. A 50sq.ft package would do the trick.. In case you decide to do up the floor too then 90-100sqft would be enough.
Hope this helps..
Victor...
ckoscin2 on 03/31/2006 05:40:19
well thanks victor...that was fast its 5:30am here and i am just going to bed. i never would have thought to get an answer that fast
ttocs on 03/31/2006 08:19:38
I have used a few and the only difference I have found is in the products ability to remain on the surface it sticks to. ALWAYS make sure to prep the are by cleaning it to help it. I put Brown Bread in my truck 2 yrs ago and it has survived well for 2 yrs. If it can survive 2 phoenix summers, I'm sold.........
ckoscin2 on 03/31/2006 19:09:51
what shold i do to prep the area of my trunk that i am going to use it in?
MrBrownstone on 03/31/2006 19:48:22
Performance-wise, they are all created equal. BAsically, what you need to do is add mass to your body panels to stop the vibrating. You can accomplish this with 'magic sound damping' putty, spray, or sheets of matting.
Of course, you can also use cow dung, mud, bondo, or anything that is heavy. The main importance is to add mass to the panels and to keep it their. Other than that, it's just a matter of packaging the same product 15 different ways.
Victor on 04/1/2006 09:50:55
cow dung...hehehehehe... wonder how they would package that one...GRIN
swez on 04/1/2006 18:33:15
Dried and then sandwiched? Only thing, if cow dung get wet, it will fall apart and probably smell pretty foul too.
Mr. B. once again, you are wrong about all matting being created equal. Not even close pal. The asphalt stuff stinks, hard to shape and many don't stick well on vertical or inverted intsalls. Some tend to delaminate over time, temperature extremes and compositions used. Victor did a very indepth review and looked at many new products and their attributes. The days of wide netted generalizations are gone.
Rubberized mats seem to have a definite edge as they are dense, easily formed and molded and stick well to any clean surfaces in any orientation.
The paint on deadeners have some real promise in hard to reach places. Just need to get the feel for the materials, how they lay out and how many coats are adequate for the application.
Man, it's not 1997 anymore bud! Things are a changing for the better in most cases. The new products out there now, have so many new features, better performance and last longer than old paper cone drivers.
Anyway, it's nice to offer some color commentary as you see fit. But this is service based forum now. Technology, materials and new manufacturing techniques are happening every few months. The rest is just obsolete.
FYI: It's not like the days when one could set up a web site, pimp audio deals at 20% over cost and hope it did not come back later. Well, they can do it on e-bay I guess. But even there, the top end stuff is well presented, priced to move and to the savvy buyer, great deals are out there.
Yes, warranty issues are something to consider, but if we buy the good stuff and don't abuse, misues or other wise screw things up, most gear should last a long time.
Please, get on the right bus and strut your new stuff. The old rehash ain't working no more. Geez-O-Peas
Swez
ttocs on 04/1/2006 19:48:22
I agree with swez..... In '97 none of the deadoners held for any length of time. I can prove this by showing you the dynamat that I installed when I bought the truck new in '97. I laid it in the extended cab under the carpet and when I looked at it 3 weeks ago, it is not sticking any more, and is not it one piece either. The brown bread I installed on the rear deck a few years ago sticks as strong today as it ever did.
MrBrownstone on 04/1/2006 21:41:04
I was speaking to the sound deadening capability...that of which your right hand is just as good as the left hand.
As far as adhesive quality, who says you need a 'sound proofing' product? You can use baked goods. He was asking if dynomat blew everyone out of the water...which the answer is no.
That's my point. If it sticks to the surface of your car, it's created equally. Since 1989, noone has made an improvement in the design, only the marketing of these products.
Some of them smell a lot, some don't. What I was getting at is that you can use household products, roofing products, or anything that adds mass to your car.
swez on 04/2/2006 13:22:47
Don't mean to pick on ya bud. But things have changed a lot in the last 2-5 years. All mats are not created equal.
Yes, most mats will stick to a clean surface initially. But, some brands delaminate over time with heat/cold and humidity. The adhesive to panel may remain intact, but the inner layers can peel back in time. Not a big problem of horizontal panels like the trunk & floor pan.
However, in doors, side panels and trunk lids, the adhesive may/may not stay put or the sandwich layers fall apart and drop down or fall off.
Yes, the original concept is the same, but performance of newer materials are much better then even a few years ago. That's all I am pointing out... One Size (type) does not fit all applications!!!
Swez
MrBrownstone on 04/2/2006 16:24:45
What I was getting at, and it seems a lost concept, is that you can go to Home Depot, spend $100 and do the same thing as any of the dynomat-typed products. The difference, for $100, you get $1000 of dynamat performance.
Vblock, dynamat, brown bread, pick your product--it doesn't matter. As far as adhesive, most people misapply the product, and that's why it doesn't stick.
What I'm getting at is there are no new materials. It's the same crap, under better marketing. One product fits all applications, and it doesn't even need to be purchased at a car audio store.
It's wasted breath. Spend what you want, it doesn't matter. This is a useless conversation, and I'm done with it.
swez on 04/2/2006 19:14:16
OK, we can agree on some parts and choose to disagree on others. It does not matter.
When I spoke of delaminations, what happends here, the adhesive layer still sticks to original surfaces. But, the bulky mass that provides the main source of deadening, breaks away from the adhesive and slides down say into the door panel and just lies there.
Other than that, the subject matter is pretty much a dead issue.
Swez
lessismorespl on 04/4/2006 10:59:23
Actually, sound dampening goes deeper than just adhesive ability, and does much more than just add mass to panels, although this is one of the primary reasons for using it.
Sound Dampening has several purposes:
1. Add Mass to panels to limit vibrations.
2. Seal an enclosed area, such as a trunk for the purpose of improved sound reflection.
3. Eliminate a large percentage of road noise from entering the vehicle, therefore improving overall SQ.
4. Eliminate sound from escaping vehicle which improves sound reflection and SPL, as well as keeps the locals happy at red lights.
Many argue this point in several forums, in the shop, etc.... I am presently hitting 148.6 dB's, unless my windows are down or the door is open, you would never imagine it was that loud b/c it can barely be heard 10ft from the vehicle.
There are right ways to dampen and wrong ways. Not all are created equal. Sprays work best in hard to reach areas, but need 3 or 4 coats to be effective, mat works better in flat areas.
The ones I suggest are Dynamat Extreme, B-Quiet Extreme/Ultimate, or FatMat. I have used over 20 products over the years, as well as home versions and bedliners, roofing material etc.... These work best and produce the best result. As for prepping the area, use a good degreaser and scrub it nice and clean, let it dry good, like a day or 2, then either do it in the sun under 75+ degree heat or slightly heat the area it is to be applied to....use a good roller to make sure it contacts good and seales properly.
less
swez on 04/4/2006 15:50:06
Ditto! I have found "Simple Green" to be an excellent cleaner and degreaser for many applications. Just spray on, wipe off and allow to dry before starting the job.
FYI: The Industrial strength version needs to be cut with water as it is very strong and may damage painted surfaces.
Swez
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