Hey Folks how is everyone doing? I have a bit of a problem and I have a hunch that you folks may have a solution. The situation is this...
So, back around December, the battery on my car died. We had it replaced and things seemed fine. However, after about a week, I tried starting the car and it seemed weak. I thought little of it and drove to a friends house. I stayed over at my friends house and the next morning I tried to start the car. This time, it was even weaker and refused to start. At that point I figured that if I disconnected the amp, the car would have a smaller initial load to power and would start. With that thought in mind, I disconnected the positive cable from the amp and the car weakly started. I drove it around for a while to recharge the battery and went home. When I got home, I left the amp disconnected thinking that perhaps my wiring for my amp got messed up and maybe the amp was not turning off and was leeching the battery. (upon looking at the amp the power light was not on so this theory doesn't make much sense but I figured it couldnt hurt). The next day I started the car up and it was fine. However, after that I didn't drive it for a week and when I tried to start it up, it would not.
Now, (bear with me, the story is almost over) fast forward to today. Finally we took the car to the "Foreign Car Hospital". Their diagnosis was that the wiring might be incorrect and that we need a new battery. They also said something about the amp draining the battery faster than it could recharge. So tomorrow I will go to pick up the car with the new battery. The only question I have is, could this really be the wiring even though I had been driving the car for almost a year without a problem? Also, if it is the wiring is there a way I could still use the sub and amp? (the only reason I drive this car is because of the system I put in...also cuz the alternative is a Prius....)
As always I know you guys will come through with brilliant advice. Hope you guys are all well.
Mr. Miyagi AKA Eli
Replies (40)
ttocs on 03/24/2006 08:56:20
have you looked at the alternator?
swez on 03/24/2006 12:16:19
No mystery here. The ALT/BAT in this car cannot keep up with the power demands of your present electrical system. The other possiblity, you have a case of "parasitic drain" on the BAT from a circuit(s) that remains live, even when the key is out of your ignition.
As for the new BAT, I highly recommend a Deep Cycle BAT this time. This type of BAT has a long life and can take many deep dischages. The higher the CCA rating on this new Bat, the better. (800+) A typical car start BAT cannot withstand very many deep discharges. After a few "no starts" and jumps, the battery life is greatly reduced. Even if the BAT is a year or two old, it can short out internally and not hold a good charge anymore. This is noted easily, as the battery will discharge in a matter of days, even if there are no cables connected to the posts. (Internal resistance of the battery is now draining the BAT) That "could" be the main source of the parasitic drain too.
WARNING: When you disconnect amp power lines, always pull the main fuse (under the hood) for the main power line that feeds your amps. Now, you know for certain no current is present and a loose amp feed wire is always a very bad idea.
Now, the root issue(s) may be a bit more involved. This ALT may be charging to a degree, but not up to snuff. Have it tested at any good autoparts store for free. Many have a portable tester that can be wheeled out to the parking area and tested on the spot. Record the idle and 2500 RPM output charging voltage and current readings. If in spec per OEM design, this unit is good. However, it may not be good enough to power your car and audio gear.
The next thing to look for, is any parasitic drains going on in the electricals. Here, the engine is off, a DC volt meter is connected to the BAT terminals and a helper watches the meter while another guy starts pulling fuses. (one at a time) A well charged BAT should read a steady ~12.5 volts. If it reads 12.3 VDC or less, there is a drain taking place somewhere in the system. That's what needs to be found and fixed.
As one pulls fuses, look for a change in BAT voltage, off the meter. When a drain is found, the voltage reading on the meter will go up a few points. (~0.25 - 0.5 volts DC) If you find something like this, it is your cause for the draining of the BAT. Then, we dig deeper into that circuit and figure out why it's powered, when the key is out.
Got all that?
Swez
PS What amplifiers are you running here? (Make and model #'s please) Also, what wire gage is used to feed these amplifiers?
Look at the fuses used in each amplifier. What are the fuse ratings on each amplifier?
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 14:21:42
Hey guys thanks for the advice. Today I am going to go pick up the car from the shop. I spoke to the guy there earlier and he seemed to say that the Alternator was in perfect condition and that besides the amp, there didnt seem to be any other drain on the battery. As for the deep cycle battery, the guy may have installed one but I left it up to him cuz this was before i got the advice. Umm, in terms of my wiring, I am running 4 gauge wire.
As for the specifics of the amp (model, fuse rating etc.) I will update that in when i pick up my car.
Thanks a lot for ur help so far, I will come back and answer any quesitons I missed on this update.
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 17:55:43
ok so the amp is an MTX roadthunder 502 amp and it seems to have two 30 amp fuses. Here is a new mystery though. So I just got the car back from the shop and the guy told me that the amp was giving off weird feedback. Over the phone I had no idea what he was talking about cuz it was working fine before. Anyhow, when I got home and plugged in the amp to see what the deal was. I then turned on the car and had the volume at 2 but instantly the sub was blaring the loudest tone I have heard from it. It was not to the music but was just a constant loud tone so I turned it off and disconnected everything. Tomorrow I am planning on going over the wiring to see if something is instantly noticable as wrong but if any of you have any idea why this would happen, please let me know. Thanks a bunch.
-Miyagi
swez on 03/24/2006 18:09:37
That could be as simple as a loose RCA input cable or one with a bad grounding sheath. This is not uncommon. Make sure your RCA wires are tight and the amp RCA jacks don't wiggle like a loose tooth, on that section of the amp PC board.
If you unplug the RCA's, does the tone go away?
Comments?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 21:33:27
hey thanks for the advice, Ill check the RCAs tomorrow but out of curiousity how expensive is it usually to upgrade the alternator? Is this something that is do-able by a relatively inexperianced person AKA me? Thanks
swez on 03/24/2006 22:56:56
An ALT upgrade is about $1.25 per ampere, depending on where you get it or have the old one re-worked for more output. Yes, if you have some basic wrenches, sockets and willing to dig out the present ALT, yes... an average "shade tree", weekend wrench bender, can probably do the work with some effort. It all depends on the location of the ALT and how many tight spots you have to overcome in the process. Where is the stock ALT located in the engine compartment? (On top the engine and easy to get at. Or, hidden in the lower engine compartment and some other devices have to be removed, to get at it?)
Check out www.motorcityreman.com and request a quote for an ALT with say 150A peak output. They are located in Detroit, MI. A few guys have used them for this site and say these guys are A.O.K. A 150A unit will be strong enough for your car needs, sub amp and some in reserve for a full range amp to power Mids and Highs too. I would guess your stock ALT is more like 70-80A's @ full output. Barely adequate for car and this amp.
The amp mentioned, will draw close to 55A at full power, using test tones. The average current draw will be less, depending on the sound levels you listen to and the amount of heavy bass content.
OK, happy hunting on that noise issue. If you pull the RCA input lines and the noise goes away, that's the likely issue. A poor audio wire ground connection between HU and amp.
Get back to us with your results,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/25/2006 18:10:28
Hey, so i check on the alternator and also on the RCAs. For a 150 ampere alternator they charge $300 which is a bit expensive for me cuz my family is getting rid of the car when I go to college in september. Pretty much it is just my ride and I only keep it for the sound system. As far as connections go, they seem to be fine except the RCAs to the amp do seem perhaps a bit loose. When I disconnect the RCAs, the sound does not play. With that in mind what would you suggest? Should I just get new RCAs? Thanks again for your help.
swez on 03/25/2006 19:15:23
Hummm, a bit steep for the new ALT. You may wish to check around in your area for rebuild shops that may be able to upgrade your present ALT. If you can get close to 130A or more when done, that should hold you for a while.
As for the RCA's, power off everything in the car and remove the RCA's. Clean them with a fine steel wool, followed by brushing away any stray metal fibers with a toothbrust or small paint brush.
Now, "gently" compress the outer pronged fingers, toward the center pin of each RCA line. Just a small adjustment, should tighten them back up to the female amp connectors.
On the amp, use the steel wool again, to clean any discolorations off the outer rings on the female RCA jacks. Again, brush away residues of any metal fibers that may have entered as you cleaned them. (A small vacuum works fine too)
Finally, if you have some WD-40 on hand, give the male RCA's a light shot. This will help remove any oxides (rust) on them and keep it from coming back. Then, slide the jacks back into the amp and give it a few light twists, back and forth. (Clockwise and counter-clockwise) With a little luck, your RCA's will be clean, tight and noise free again. Power up the system and see what ya get now.
Good luck,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/26/2006 16:16:02
Alright so I tried that cleaning of the RCA thing to no avail. From that point, I took it to best buy and asked them to see if they could figure out what the deal was. So 30 mins later they say that they think its the amp but unless they rewire the whole thing they can't do anything. Swez or anyone else, any more ideas? Do you think the amp might be fried? I've had it for probably about a year and half and i got it used off of ebay so it probably has some wear and tear on it. Any other ideas would be appreciated. I figure if nothing else, ill rewire everything myself some weekend but im getting kind of lazy so i'd rather try something else first. Thanks.
swez on 03/26/2006 16:27:20
At this stage, the amp needs to be bench tested. If the amp test results show an amp problem, (internal damage) then you have a choice to have it repaired or get another amp.
I'd tell ya how to test it yourself. But, it's the weekend and I am feeling pretty lazy too. It must be catchy"
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/26/2006 21:31:43
ha aight, lemme know when it passes
swez on 03/27/2006 09:28:35
If I tell you, ya gonna do it someday?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/27/2006 11:45:12
Yeah, I'll do it some time this week or this weekend. I was just trying to enjoy the final day of spring break yesterday. Your efforts will not be wasted.
swez on 03/27/2006 17:46:17
OK, to test an amp that is already mounted, we can use any portable audio player device that has a headphone jack in it. All that is needed, is a stereo phone jack and a pair of RCA males on the other end. This is a common patch cord and can ususally be found at Radio Shack, Target or even WalMart.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103367&cp=2032058&pg=5&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kwCatId=2032058&kw=patch+cables&parentPage=search
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102974&cp=2032058&pg=6&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kw=patch+cables&kwCatId=2032058&parentPage=search
Once you have the patch cord, remove the HU RCA's from the amp and plug in your portable player and turn up the volume to about 50% of max. That should be enough power to get the amp bumping at reasonable output. If it sounds clean and the system plays normally, your amp is OK.
The problem is upstream in the audio signal chain. Either in the RCA wires, an LOC (if used) or something has gone south at the HU outputs.
If the amp hums or you get little or no music, the amp has a problem and needs to be serviced or replaced.
Good luck,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/27/2006 18:52:52
Hey Swez, so I tested the amp today and it played just fine. So would the next step be to rerun new RCAs cuz I didn't use a LOC. If the problem is the HU outputs can I do? Thanks for your advice.
Eli
swez on 03/27/2006 20:08:08
The next step would be to check the HU RCA outputs. It would great if you had a 2nd amp handy and used the present HU/RCA's to feed the other amp and speakers to see if that signal is clean too.
If YES, there's something strange and periodically going on somewhere in the audio link. All you can do is monitor things.
If NO, (noise problems noted) then pulling the HU, inspect RCA's at the HU are in order. Retest with a known good amp. If the problem presists, either the RCA's are the problem or the HU is having problems.
If you have a spare set of generic RCA's handy, use those and plug them into a known good amp and test for signal clarity. If this proves good, the current RCA's need to be repaired/replaced.
If the noise issue is still present with new RCA's, your HU is the likely problem.
Comments,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/22/2006 19:14:04
Hey so I finally had a free weekend and I tried to test all that I could. So, what I know so far is that my amp works fine (through testing with an MP3 player using RCA-Line In connecter), and also, it is not the rca cables cuz I went and bought new ones with the same result. So, the only thing is I was not able to get my hands on amp to do the test you spoke of in ur last post swez. So at this point I am assuming that something is up with the head unit. Does this seem right? should I contact Crutchfield or Pioneer? Thanks
-Miyagi
swez on 04/22/2006 21:55:24
Yes, if the amp was fine off your MP3 player, the RCA wires are good, then the noise problem is most likely in the HU or HU grounding. Check your HU and see if they use the factory harness ground or went right to bare metal on floor pan or fire wall.
Aftermarket HU's need a body ground. The harness ground is generally not sufficent. If that does not quiet things down, your HU may have some problems internally. (Most likely the case)
Good luck and keep us posted OK?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/22/2006 22:45:28
Yeah, thanks for the advice. I used the factory ground so hopefully that will be the problem. Ill give it a try tomorrow and tell u the results. This is my first aftermarket HU so I am curious, Do most HUs generally only last about two years or is do you think this is out of the ordinary?
swez on 04/23/2006 11:00:30
It sounds like a 'ground loop' issue here. Very common too.
See, the amp(s) and HU need to have common grounds. (Same reference potential) If the main ground is faulty, (inadequate) the HU will have 'some ground potential' from the RCA's and antenna.
Not a big issue for the HU alone and no amps. But, if the amp looses it ground, now the ground path return power is through the RCA's (ground sheath) and antenna. This is what often damages a HU. They are not designed for high wattage power flow.
The short answer, under normal conditions and a proper install, HU's should last many years. However, if there is a problem in the HU or installed improperly, it may last only minutes, days. weeks months or a few years.
More reading:
http://www.bcae1.com/ground.htm
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 12:12:47
so this morning, I tried to get to the HU factory ground but it went to deep into my dash for me to follow it, let alone unscrew it. So, Should I just cut the ground wire at some point and re-ground it somewhere else? Thanks.
-miyagi
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 12:17:26
Also, would this ground loop problem just happen after two years of working fine?
swez on 04/23/2006 14:55:17
Yes, just cut the HU ground wire, splice in a longer piece and mount it to bare metal on floor board or firewall. Report your progress.
If it worked before and now on the fritz, you may have a HU problem to deal with.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 22:41:29
before I cut anything I just want to make sure I am cutting the right thing and that I have been following the right cable. So, the ground on the head unit is the cable with the long metal jack on the end that goes deep into the head unit and not one of the wires that goes to the harness right? Thanks
swez on 04/24/2006 10:08:02
The heavy cable with the metal jack is the antenna wire. DON'T CUT THAT!!!
The HU ground wire is about #16 gage wire. It is black and is part of the wiring harness where the yellow and red wires are also located. The black wire goes into the Conversion harness and then to the OEM wiring harness.
Cut the black wire on the HU side, and splice a longer wire onto it, so you can attach it to the floor pan of firewall. (Bare metal pls.)
TIP: Remove the Radio fuse in the fuse panel before you do your work. Yes you will probably lose your clock and station presets. But just reset them when the ground is installed and the fuse is back in place.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/24/2006 17:19:09
So, i switched the ground wire and such and reconnected everything, made sure everything was tight etc., and even used the new RCAs instead of the old ones but the noise still occured. Using the amp I could adjust how loud the noise was with the gain which isn't suprising but i could also adjust the frequency of the note which i thought was strange that there was information going to all the possible frequencies for the amp. Anyhow, I guess at this point I need to get a new HU? The only strange part for me is that all the other functions of the HU work, the cds still play, the radio works, and all the speakers sound fine. Can it be possible that only part of the HU is broken? Thanks for the help.
Miyagi
swez on 04/24/2006 18:23:00
Sure, it's very possible for the rest of the HU functions to work fine, but still have noise. You may have a loose ground inside the HU or a bad filter in the preamp section of the HU too.
We know the amp is OK as when you hooked up your AUX source, it was quiet. So, that rule out the amp, power wires and amp ground. It's most likely the HU that is damaged in some way.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/24/2006 18:24:39
damn....and repairing that myself is not an option right? Do you know of any places in chicago that fix HUs? Best Buy? CC?
swez on 04/24/2006 18:37:07
Authorized repairs in US & Canada:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/support/parts_service/parts_and_service.htm
BB/CC will farm it out. If you have an extended warranty, go that route. If not, figure $60-75.00 labor + S/H & parts.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 05/11/2006 18:02:53
Hey Folks, so I finally got my receiver back from the shop. I installed it the day I got it and at first there was this sort of gurgling bass that would play along with the music so I turned off the system and drove to where I needed to drive. Once I got there, I just made sure everything was tight and then everything worked perfectly for about 10 seconds until I ejected the cd (which turned off the receiver) and then tried to put a cd back in and it wouldn't turn on. So, that has been the status since two days ago. I checked the ground wire and the BATT+ wire that go to the receiver but they all seem connected fine. Any ideas? I really don't want to have to take it back cuz it is super far and I'd just like to have it working. Thanks for the on going advice.
swez on 05/11/2006 21:09:21
Check the fuse for the HU. If blown, go to a Professional installer and let them fix it so that no further damage or delays are possible.
Also, look for a reset button on the HU. It may have shut down for a good reason. Installing a HU is child's play for a Pro, but not everyone that comes to CK, has this innate talent. It's better to pay a guy a few bucks that knows what to do and avoid costly errors and expensive electrical repairs.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 05/11/2006 21:13:36
See I can respect that but I installed it in the first place and it worked for a long time. So I'm not sure where I could have run into problems because all I did was replug the wiring harness and the antenna cable and the rcas. If I take it to best buy or circuit city I will need to pay 70 bucks or so because they can't fix it, they can only install it. If thats the only solution I guess thats what I'll do but I'd really like to try and solve it myself (though obviously with advice). Thanks anyways.
E
ttocs on 05/11/2006 23:26:01
I wouldn't go to a big box place for a fix like this. They will simply run you over the coals a few times if they are in a good mood. If you go somewhere, go somewhere local and talk to them. At my shop I am more then happy to take a quick looksy and see if I can help, made alot of customers that way. If it does require me gettin tools out and really thinkin about it, then you pay by the hour, not normally longer then an hour(depends on the rats nest they bring in!). Its not time to quit yet...
So now we have no power. Start simple and check power with a voltmeter at the constant and switched. Try disconnecting power to the deck, and then reconnecting it. Most decks should act as though it is ejecting a cd.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:02:10
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:03:17
At the Constant I got 13-14 Volts at the 20 volt setting. I'm going back out to try the switched cuz i forgot about that.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:14:37
I got a similar reading, about 14 volts at the switched. I disconnected and reconnected teh power but nothing happened. Suggestions?
ttocs on 05/16/2006 12:39:29
check to make sure you have a good ground, and also check the fuses for the radio. It is normally on the back of the deck or inline on the decks wire hrns.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/16/2006 14:40:35
How do I know if there is a problem with the fuse?
ttocs on 05/16/2006 18:10:28
you will need to pull it out and see if it is blown.
So, back around December, the battery on my car died. We had it replaced and things seemed fine. However, after about a week, I tried starting the car and it seemed weak. I thought little of it and drove to a friends house. I stayed over at my friends house and the next morning I tried to start the car. This time, it was even weaker and refused to start. At that point I figured that if I disconnected the amp, the car would have a smaller initial load to power and would start. With that thought in mind, I disconnected the positive cable from the amp and the car weakly started. I drove it around for a while to recharge the battery and went home. When I got home, I left the amp disconnected thinking that perhaps my wiring for my amp got messed up and maybe the amp was not turning off and was leeching the battery. (upon looking at the amp the power light was not on so this theory doesn't make much sense but I figured it couldnt hurt). The next day I started the car up and it was fine. However, after that I didn't drive it for a week and when I tried to start it up, it would not.
Now, (bear with me, the story is almost over) fast forward to today. Finally we took the car to the "Foreign Car Hospital". Their diagnosis was that the wiring might be incorrect and that we need a new battery. They also said something about the amp draining the battery faster than it could recharge. So tomorrow I will go to pick up the car with the new battery. The only question I have is, could this really be the wiring even though I had been driving the car for almost a year without a problem? Also, if it is the wiring is there a way I could still use the sub and amp? (the only reason I drive this car is because of the system I put in...also cuz the alternative is a Prius....)
As always I know you guys will come through with brilliant advice. Hope you guys are all well.
Mr. Miyagi AKA Eli
Replies (40)
ttocs on 03/24/2006 08:56:20
have you looked at the alternator?
swez on 03/24/2006 12:16:19
No mystery here. The ALT/BAT in this car cannot keep up with the power demands of your present electrical system. The other possiblity, you have a case of "parasitic drain" on the BAT from a circuit(s) that remains live, even when the key is out of your ignition.
As for the new BAT, I highly recommend a Deep Cycle BAT this time. This type of BAT has a long life and can take many deep dischages. The higher the CCA rating on this new Bat, the better. (800+) A typical car start BAT cannot withstand very many deep discharges. After a few "no starts" and jumps, the battery life is greatly reduced. Even if the BAT is a year or two old, it can short out internally and not hold a good charge anymore. This is noted easily, as the battery will discharge in a matter of days, even if there are no cables connected to the posts. (Internal resistance of the battery is now draining the BAT) That "could" be the main source of the parasitic drain too.
WARNING: When you disconnect amp power lines, always pull the main fuse (under the hood) for the main power line that feeds your amps. Now, you know for certain no current is present and a loose amp feed wire is always a very bad idea.
Now, the root issue(s) may be a bit more involved. This ALT may be charging to a degree, but not up to snuff. Have it tested at any good autoparts store for free. Many have a portable tester that can be wheeled out to the parking area and tested on the spot. Record the idle and 2500 RPM output charging voltage and current readings. If in spec per OEM design, this unit is good. However, it may not be good enough to power your car and audio gear.
The next thing to look for, is any parasitic drains going on in the electricals. Here, the engine is off, a DC volt meter is connected to the BAT terminals and a helper watches the meter while another guy starts pulling fuses. (one at a time) A well charged BAT should read a steady ~12.5 volts. If it reads 12.3 VDC or less, there is a drain taking place somewhere in the system. That's what needs to be found and fixed.
As one pulls fuses, look for a change in BAT voltage, off the meter. When a drain is found, the voltage reading on the meter will go up a few points. (~0.25 - 0.5 volts DC) If you find something like this, it is your cause for the draining of the BAT. Then, we dig deeper into that circuit and figure out why it's powered, when the key is out.
Got all that?
Swez
PS What amplifiers are you running here? (Make and model #'s please) Also, what wire gage is used to feed these amplifiers?
Look at the fuses used in each amplifier. What are the fuse ratings on each amplifier?
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 14:21:42
Hey guys thanks for the advice. Today I am going to go pick up the car from the shop. I spoke to the guy there earlier and he seemed to say that the Alternator was in perfect condition and that besides the amp, there didnt seem to be any other drain on the battery. As for the deep cycle battery, the guy may have installed one but I left it up to him cuz this was before i got the advice. Umm, in terms of my wiring, I am running 4 gauge wire.
As for the specifics of the amp (model, fuse rating etc.) I will update that in when i pick up my car.
Thanks a lot for ur help so far, I will come back and answer any quesitons I missed on this update.
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 17:55:43
ok so the amp is an MTX roadthunder 502 amp and it seems to have two 30 amp fuses. Here is a new mystery though. So I just got the car back from the shop and the guy told me that the amp was giving off weird feedback. Over the phone I had no idea what he was talking about cuz it was working fine before. Anyhow, when I got home and plugged in the amp to see what the deal was. I then turned on the car and had the volume at 2 but instantly the sub was blaring the loudest tone I have heard from it. It was not to the music but was just a constant loud tone so I turned it off and disconnected everything. Tomorrow I am planning on going over the wiring to see if something is instantly noticable as wrong but if any of you have any idea why this would happen, please let me know. Thanks a bunch.
-Miyagi
swez on 03/24/2006 18:09:37
That could be as simple as a loose RCA input cable or one with a bad grounding sheath. This is not uncommon. Make sure your RCA wires are tight and the amp RCA jacks don't wiggle like a loose tooth, on that section of the amp PC board.
If you unplug the RCA's, does the tone go away?
Comments?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/24/2006 21:33:27
hey thanks for the advice, Ill check the RCAs tomorrow but out of curiousity how expensive is it usually to upgrade the alternator? Is this something that is do-able by a relatively inexperianced person AKA me? Thanks
swez on 03/24/2006 22:56:56
An ALT upgrade is about $1.25 per ampere, depending on where you get it or have the old one re-worked for more output. Yes, if you have some basic wrenches, sockets and willing to dig out the present ALT, yes... an average "shade tree", weekend wrench bender, can probably do the work with some effort. It all depends on the location of the ALT and how many tight spots you have to overcome in the process. Where is the stock ALT located in the engine compartment? (On top the engine and easy to get at. Or, hidden in the lower engine compartment and some other devices have to be removed, to get at it?)
Check out www.motorcityreman.com and request a quote for an ALT with say 150A peak output. They are located in Detroit, MI. A few guys have used them for this site and say these guys are A.O.K. A 150A unit will be strong enough for your car needs, sub amp and some in reserve for a full range amp to power Mids and Highs too. I would guess your stock ALT is more like 70-80A's @ full output. Barely adequate for car and this amp.
The amp mentioned, will draw close to 55A at full power, using test tones. The average current draw will be less, depending on the sound levels you listen to and the amount of heavy bass content.
OK, happy hunting on that noise issue. If you pull the RCA input lines and the noise goes away, that's the likely issue. A poor audio wire ground connection between HU and amp.
Get back to us with your results,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/25/2006 18:10:28
Hey, so i check on the alternator and also on the RCAs. For a 150 ampere alternator they charge $300 which is a bit expensive for me cuz my family is getting rid of the car when I go to college in september. Pretty much it is just my ride and I only keep it for the sound system. As far as connections go, they seem to be fine except the RCAs to the amp do seem perhaps a bit loose. When I disconnect the RCAs, the sound does not play. With that in mind what would you suggest? Should I just get new RCAs? Thanks again for your help.
swez on 03/25/2006 19:15:23
Hummm, a bit steep for the new ALT. You may wish to check around in your area for rebuild shops that may be able to upgrade your present ALT. If you can get close to 130A or more when done, that should hold you for a while.
As for the RCA's, power off everything in the car and remove the RCA's. Clean them with a fine steel wool, followed by brushing away any stray metal fibers with a toothbrust or small paint brush.
Now, "gently" compress the outer pronged fingers, toward the center pin of each RCA line. Just a small adjustment, should tighten them back up to the female amp connectors.
On the amp, use the steel wool again, to clean any discolorations off the outer rings on the female RCA jacks. Again, brush away residues of any metal fibers that may have entered as you cleaned them. (A small vacuum works fine too)
Finally, if you have some WD-40 on hand, give the male RCA's a light shot. This will help remove any oxides (rust) on them and keep it from coming back. Then, slide the jacks back into the amp and give it a few light twists, back and forth. (Clockwise and counter-clockwise) With a little luck, your RCA's will be clean, tight and noise free again. Power up the system and see what ya get now.
Good luck,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/26/2006 16:16:02
Alright so I tried that cleaning of the RCA thing to no avail. From that point, I took it to best buy and asked them to see if they could figure out what the deal was. So 30 mins later they say that they think its the amp but unless they rewire the whole thing they can't do anything. Swez or anyone else, any more ideas? Do you think the amp might be fried? I've had it for probably about a year and half and i got it used off of ebay so it probably has some wear and tear on it. Any other ideas would be appreciated. I figure if nothing else, ill rewire everything myself some weekend but im getting kind of lazy so i'd rather try something else first. Thanks.
swez on 03/26/2006 16:27:20
At this stage, the amp needs to be bench tested. If the amp test results show an amp problem, (internal damage) then you have a choice to have it repaired or get another amp.
I'd tell ya how to test it yourself. But, it's the weekend and I am feeling pretty lazy too. It must be catchy"
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/26/2006 21:31:43
ha aight, lemme know when it passes
swez on 03/27/2006 09:28:35
If I tell you, ya gonna do it someday?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/27/2006 11:45:12
Yeah, I'll do it some time this week or this weekend. I was just trying to enjoy the final day of spring break yesterday. Your efforts will not be wasted.
swez on 03/27/2006 17:46:17
OK, to test an amp that is already mounted, we can use any portable audio player device that has a headphone jack in it. All that is needed, is a stereo phone jack and a pair of RCA males on the other end. This is a common patch cord and can ususally be found at Radio Shack, Target or even WalMart.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103367&cp=2032058&pg=5&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kwCatId=2032058&kw=patch+cables&parentPage=search
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102974&cp=2032058&pg=6&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kw=patch+cables&kwCatId=2032058&parentPage=search
Once you have the patch cord, remove the HU RCA's from the amp and plug in your portable player and turn up the volume to about 50% of max. That should be enough power to get the amp bumping at reasonable output. If it sounds clean and the system plays normally, your amp is OK.
The problem is upstream in the audio signal chain. Either in the RCA wires, an LOC (if used) or something has gone south at the HU outputs.
If the amp hums or you get little or no music, the amp has a problem and needs to be serviced or replaced.
Good luck,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 03/27/2006 18:52:52
Hey Swez, so I tested the amp today and it played just fine. So would the next step be to rerun new RCAs cuz I didn't use a LOC. If the problem is the HU outputs can I do? Thanks for your advice.
Eli
swez on 03/27/2006 20:08:08
The next step would be to check the HU RCA outputs. It would great if you had a 2nd amp handy and used the present HU/RCA's to feed the other amp and speakers to see if that signal is clean too.
If YES, there's something strange and periodically going on somewhere in the audio link. All you can do is monitor things.
If NO, (noise problems noted) then pulling the HU, inspect RCA's at the HU are in order. Retest with a known good amp. If the problem presists, either the RCA's are the problem or the HU is having problems.
If you have a spare set of generic RCA's handy, use those and plug them into a known good amp and test for signal clarity. If this proves good, the current RCA's need to be repaired/replaced.
If the noise issue is still present with new RCA's, your HU is the likely problem.
Comments,
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/22/2006 19:14:04
Hey so I finally had a free weekend and I tried to test all that I could. So, what I know so far is that my amp works fine (through testing with an MP3 player using RCA-Line In connecter), and also, it is not the rca cables cuz I went and bought new ones with the same result. So, the only thing is I was not able to get my hands on amp to do the test you spoke of in ur last post swez. So at this point I am assuming that something is up with the head unit. Does this seem right? should I contact Crutchfield or Pioneer? Thanks
-Miyagi
swez on 04/22/2006 21:55:24
Yes, if the amp was fine off your MP3 player, the RCA wires are good, then the noise problem is most likely in the HU or HU grounding. Check your HU and see if they use the factory harness ground or went right to bare metal on floor pan or fire wall.
Aftermarket HU's need a body ground. The harness ground is generally not sufficent. If that does not quiet things down, your HU may have some problems internally. (Most likely the case)
Good luck and keep us posted OK?
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/22/2006 22:45:28
Yeah, thanks for the advice. I used the factory ground so hopefully that will be the problem. Ill give it a try tomorrow and tell u the results. This is my first aftermarket HU so I am curious, Do most HUs generally only last about two years or is do you think this is out of the ordinary?
swez on 04/23/2006 11:00:30
It sounds like a 'ground loop' issue here. Very common too.
See, the amp(s) and HU need to have common grounds. (Same reference potential) If the main ground is faulty, (inadequate) the HU will have 'some ground potential' from the RCA's and antenna.
Not a big issue for the HU alone and no amps. But, if the amp looses it ground, now the ground path return power is through the RCA's (ground sheath) and antenna. This is what often damages a HU. They are not designed for high wattage power flow.
The short answer, under normal conditions and a proper install, HU's should last many years. However, if there is a problem in the HU or installed improperly, it may last only minutes, days. weeks months or a few years.
More reading:
http://www.bcae1.com/ground.htm
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 12:12:47
so this morning, I tried to get to the HU factory ground but it went to deep into my dash for me to follow it, let alone unscrew it. So, Should I just cut the ground wire at some point and re-ground it somewhere else? Thanks.
-miyagi
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 12:17:26
Also, would this ground loop problem just happen after two years of working fine?
swez on 04/23/2006 14:55:17
Yes, just cut the HU ground wire, splice in a longer piece and mount it to bare metal on floor board or firewall. Report your progress.
If it worked before and now on the fritz, you may have a HU problem to deal with.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/23/2006 22:41:29
before I cut anything I just want to make sure I am cutting the right thing and that I have been following the right cable. So, the ground on the head unit is the cable with the long metal jack on the end that goes deep into the head unit and not one of the wires that goes to the harness right? Thanks
swez on 04/24/2006 10:08:02
The heavy cable with the metal jack is the antenna wire. DON'T CUT THAT!!!
The HU ground wire is about #16 gage wire. It is black and is part of the wiring harness where the yellow and red wires are also located. The black wire goes into the Conversion harness and then to the OEM wiring harness.
Cut the black wire on the HU side, and splice a longer wire onto it, so you can attach it to the floor pan of firewall. (Bare metal pls.)
TIP: Remove the Radio fuse in the fuse panel before you do your work. Yes you will probably lose your clock and station presets. But just reset them when the ground is installed and the fuse is back in place.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/24/2006 17:19:09
So, i switched the ground wire and such and reconnected everything, made sure everything was tight etc., and even used the new RCAs instead of the old ones but the noise still occured. Using the amp I could adjust how loud the noise was with the gain which isn't suprising but i could also adjust the frequency of the note which i thought was strange that there was information going to all the possible frequencies for the amp. Anyhow, I guess at this point I need to get a new HU? The only strange part for me is that all the other functions of the HU work, the cds still play, the radio works, and all the speakers sound fine. Can it be possible that only part of the HU is broken? Thanks for the help.
Miyagi
swez on 04/24/2006 18:23:00
Sure, it's very possible for the rest of the HU functions to work fine, but still have noise. You may have a loose ground inside the HU or a bad filter in the preamp section of the HU too.
We know the amp is OK as when you hooked up your AUX source, it was quiet. So, that rule out the amp, power wires and amp ground. It's most likely the HU that is damaged in some way.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 04/24/2006 18:24:39
damn....and repairing that myself is not an option right? Do you know of any places in chicago that fix HUs? Best Buy? CC?
swez on 04/24/2006 18:37:07
Authorized repairs in US & Canada:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/support/parts_service/parts_and_service.htm
BB/CC will farm it out. If you have an extended warranty, go that route. If not, figure $60-75.00 labor + S/H & parts.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 05/11/2006 18:02:53
Hey Folks, so I finally got my receiver back from the shop. I installed it the day I got it and at first there was this sort of gurgling bass that would play along with the music so I turned off the system and drove to where I needed to drive. Once I got there, I just made sure everything was tight and then everything worked perfectly for about 10 seconds until I ejected the cd (which turned off the receiver) and then tried to put a cd back in and it wouldn't turn on. So, that has been the status since two days ago. I checked the ground wire and the BATT+ wire that go to the receiver but they all seem connected fine. Any ideas? I really don't want to have to take it back cuz it is super far and I'd just like to have it working. Thanks for the on going advice.
swez on 05/11/2006 21:09:21
Check the fuse for the HU. If blown, go to a Professional installer and let them fix it so that no further damage or delays are possible.
Also, look for a reset button on the HU. It may have shut down for a good reason. Installing a HU is child's play for a Pro, but not everyone that comes to CK, has this innate talent. It's better to pay a guy a few bucks that knows what to do and avoid costly errors and expensive electrical repairs.
Swez
Mr._Miyagi on 05/11/2006 21:13:36
See I can respect that but I installed it in the first place and it worked for a long time. So I'm not sure where I could have run into problems because all I did was replug the wiring harness and the antenna cable and the rcas. If I take it to best buy or circuit city I will need to pay 70 bucks or so because they can't fix it, they can only install it. If thats the only solution I guess thats what I'll do but I'd really like to try and solve it myself (though obviously with advice). Thanks anyways.
E
ttocs on 05/11/2006 23:26:01
I wouldn't go to a big box place for a fix like this. They will simply run you over the coals a few times if they are in a good mood. If you go somewhere, go somewhere local and talk to them. At my shop I am more then happy to take a quick looksy and see if I can help, made alot of customers that way. If it does require me gettin tools out and really thinkin about it, then you pay by the hour, not normally longer then an hour(depends on the rats nest they bring in!). Its not time to quit yet...
So now we have no power. Start simple and check power with a voltmeter at the constant and switched. Try disconnecting power to the deck, and then reconnecting it. Most decks should act as though it is ejecting a cd.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:02:10
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:03:17
At the Constant I got 13-14 Volts at the 20 volt setting. I'm going back out to try the switched cuz i forgot about that.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/15/2006 18:14:37
I got a similar reading, about 14 volts at the switched. I disconnected and reconnected teh power but nothing happened. Suggestions?
ttocs on 05/16/2006 12:39:29
check to make sure you have a good ground, and also check the fuses for the radio. It is normally on the back of the deck or inline on the decks wire hrns.
Mr._Miyagi on 05/16/2006 14:40:35
How do I know if there is a problem with the fuse?
ttocs on 05/16/2006 18:10:28
you will need to pull it out and see if it is blown.
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