Hey Guys,
I have a couple of questions now that I have beefed up my electrical system. I am trying to learn each specific function of my JL 500/1 so I can optimize the sound of my system. I have read the manual cover to cover twice and feel comfortable with 75% of the tuning features.
The part where I get lost is adjusting the input sensativity to the target Voltage. This amp is powering a 10SL 7 2ohm sub. Also I could use some schooling on what is center freq, filter freq, "Q" and how to properly adjust these controls.
I do understand Infrasonic filter, bass boost, Input voltage and slope. Also, how does one determine HU voltage output, how does this relate to sensativity adjustment to this amp.
Thanks for any input.
Replies (39)
swez on 03/9/2006 09:36:45
All good questions and the JL manual covers them, but more at "Techie" levels. (not "laymen's level) This is why JL recommends a qualified JL dealer to install their gear. No matter though, let's walk through it now.
1. HU level RCA voltage is at maximum at 75-80% of max volume. The HU maker will usually include that voltage value with its technical data specs. (typ #'s: 2.0, 2.5, 4.0 voltage values are most common) This voltage is with all tone controls set to "flat", (No boost/cut) and all DSP devices de-activated. Check HU specs for rated voltage output value from the sub RCA outs.
2. A reference test tone CD is recommended for calibration work. This tone test CD will have a variety of long tones at various frequencies and its output level is at a reference value of 0dB. For sub tweaking, we concentrate on frequencies between 35-100 Hz. A 50 Hz., test tone, with 10-30 seconds duration, is a good choice for calibration. (Sheffield Labs has a number of good test CD's available)
2b. A "pink noise" test tone is also useful. It has full range of all audible frequencies. Most test CD's included this one as well. "Pink noise", sounds like an FM tuner off station.
3. Now, let's assume you have a reference test CD on hand and know the HU RCA voltage output value. (as outlined above) The next step is to determine the amps' operating load. (ohmic load value of the sub[s] to be used with this amp. You mentioned the Kicker 10SL 7. Is that the 2+2 or 4+4 version coil set? (this is key to your amp voltage setup calibration) Comment please...
Parametric Bass Control features:
4. The Centering frequency control is best set at 40-50 Hz. This is where most low bass content is located. One can try other set points as desired. But, most will find desired results at 40-50 Hz.
5. The "Q" setting controls how wide or narrow the bandwidth slope of the filter will be. Think of this as a "Bell Curve" adjustment feature. The larger the "Q" number used, the narrower the bell shape will be. (Narrow bandwidth) Numbers below 1.6, are wide bell curves. For normal use, a "Q" setting of 1.1 - 1.6 should be fine. (Feel free to experiment with other values and see how this feature works)
6. You can use the boost feature to bring up the low end bass feel if needed. Do so sparingly though, as too much boost will drive the amp into clipping and high distortion values at high SPL output. (Boost range should be fine between 0 to +3 dB) Don't go above +6dB of bass boost.
7. The infrasonic filter is not needed for sealed sub enclosures. If you have a ported box, set the filter to match the port tuned frequency of that box. This filter protects the sub from damage that can occur, when sub is fed high power signals, below the port tuned range. (More on this topic later, if you ask)
8. The last step in calibration is to set the output voltage at the amp. Here, we are looking for a target AC voltage from the amp outputs, matched to the sub[s] ohmic load. This is done with the test tone CD and HU settings noted earlier. You'll need a Multi-meter for this step. These are inexpensive and one can get them at WalMart, Radio Shack or most good autoparts stores. A digital read out is nice and easy to use. (under $20.00 is about right)
FYI: I use a GB Instruments, Model: GDT-11 for most electrical measuring. Got it at WalMart for like $18.00. (AC/DC voltage, ohmic ranger, low amperage tester and diode test features) These are all basic features most guys will ever need. Get one if you don't have a multimeter now.
OK, covered all the basics here. Now, all you need is a test tone Reference CD and the meter. Please advise what sub coil configuration is used on the L7 sub. Once that is confimed, we can proceed with the tweaking process on both amps.
Swez COFFEE
demetman on 03/9/2006 22:11:26
Hey Swez,
Thanks for the reply. My sub is an SL102ohm model and my HU is an Alpine 9851. This is the 2nd day after my electrical system upgrade and despiter the new D34/78 Optima battery, 160 amp alternator and BIG 3 using 2awg wire and all the good accessories(gold terminals, streetwire fuse and holder and gold P3 gold battery terminals) my system has been shutting down at volumes around 22 on HU. At this volume level there is no audible distortion or clipping from amp. Sub sounds good as well. It's misterious and hopefully I can get to the bottom of this. That 500/1 should pump that L7 sub with no problem shouldn't it?
Swez, I thought I was good to go after my upgrade, I guess there is some more figuring out to do.
I don't believe the car audio shop who installed my system does everything by the book. The JL manual that is. For example I stopped in to ask a few questions pertaining to tuning the 500/1 and was told that the way they set the sensativity on a their amp installs is by ear only. Who nows maybe an experienced installer can do it by ear. I just wouldn't think so do to the fact that every install is different and has many different factors.
Any ideas?
Thanks, Demet
demetman on 03/9/2006 23:43:20
I thought it might be helpful if you knew current system configuration.
500/1 output mode set full range, filter slope 12dB, filter freq 40(Hz),filter mode LP, infrosonic filter off, Q 0.7, Bass EQ on, center freq 20, boost +2(dB), amp lp filter 12dB, filter freq 65(Hz), input voltage low, input sens. at 1/2, signal sensing off.
300/2 preamp output mode/high pass, freq range x1, filter freq 120(Hz), filter mode/HP, input sens. a little less than 1/2 and input voltage low.
HU Alpine 9851 set at- Bass +1 at 80 hz, Treble +4 at 12.5 KHZ, and subwoofer set at +10, +15 is max
The 500/1 is pushing 06SL7102ohm sub in small sealed box. 300/2 is powering a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" component speakers 100 watts rms.
Any input is always greatly appreciated.
PS I am always happy to donate to this site. I have learned a great deal thus far and respect all who take time to help people out. Thanks
swez on 03/10/2006 00:47:59
That HU states a 2.0 volt RCA output level. This is typically reached at 75-80% of HU volume, all tone and EQ features set to "flat". ("0" cut or boost)
Yes, an experienced tech can do most of this by ear. However, for the most diligent ones, use JL steps as noted in the install manual.
Your amp gains for the 500/1 & 300/2 should be set at 2.0 volts. This is what the HU specs indicate for that HU model.
Since your syetem is shutting down, this indicates either wiring problems, amp gain setting are not correct or the sub is not wired properly to the 500/1. A step by step elimination process may be needed to figure out what the root cause[s] is/are.
Again, that sub mentioned, has a big factor on sub amp and overall system performance. If this is a 2+2 coil set, the sub coils should be wired in series for a net 4 ohm load. However, if the sub is a net 2 ohms load, this is a 4+4 coil set, wired in parallel. It seems we don't know that detail right now. This could be the root of all issues noted.
FYI: If the 500/1 feeds the 300/2, and the 500/1 suts off, your whole syetem will also shut down.
Do you have Yahoo IM or Skype's VoIP installed? If you have either, we can chat and work through issues quickly. My YIM ID is "swedp". Same for Skype. www.skype.com for installing Skype to your computer. A great program for voice chats, file sharing, links and more.
Swez
demetman on 03/10/2006 10:00:36
Swez, unfortunately I don't have the above mentioned accounts to chat. I'm pretty basic when it comes to computer use. The L7 box has a sticker with a bar and states 2ohm. If you can give me some steps to investigate this issue I will complete them and report back.
I am trying not to return to installer, because I don't trust them. They have given me some false and misleading info in the past.(One guy insisted a 10W7 is a duel voice coil sub and could be pushed by 2- 500/1, one to each coil)
Victor on 03/10/2006 10:08:06
do you have a multimeter handy??? if yes then the ohmage of each voice coil on the sub can be measured individually .
swez on 03/10/2006 12:42:30
The sub may be marked 2 ohms, but an ohmmeter is the proper diagnostic tool to confirm what the amp actually sees. It is a very easy test to perform and a decent digital multimeter can be had for under $20.00.
If you have a meter handy or can borrow one from a buddy, you should expect a reading of about 1.6 ohms, if the sub is the 4+4 coil set, wired in parallel.
If this is a 2+2 coil set, wired in series, the reading should be more like 3.4 ohms.
Know the actual ohmic readings, them we can walk through the other stages of your tweaking and fine tuning.
FYI: If you get an ohmic reading well below 1.2 ohms, this may be themain reason your amp is shutting off.
Please advise,
Swez
PS Sign up for SKYPE. It's free and you can get it at: www.skype.com
This has a great VoIP system and text, voice or linking can be done with ease. I am not a computer geek, but this program is better than a phone. All that one needs is a mike and headphones.
demetman on 03/11/2006 01:18:12
Yes Swez, I Purchased a multimeter after you advised me to upgrade from my simple battery/alternator output device. I bought it from Radio Shack $19.95 AC /DC up to 2ohm yellow with red and black probes. Never really used one and I am not familiar with using this tool for basic readings. I am quite embarresed to admit but I am determined to learn. I'm a smart guy and pick up on things fast. Just need descriptive directions and a good mentor. I am determined to learn and these issuse are just a stepping stone to bigger and better projects. As always I do appreciate your patients and efforts in helping me resolve my issues. Just let me know what I can do to begin this trouble shooting process. Also I will look into skype.com for easier communication next week. I am busy chefing it up at work during the weekends.
swez on 03/11/2006 10:41:34
The instructions that came with it (meter) should explain how to read and use all features. But there are a few simple tests you can try, just to get a feel for how it works and read common voltages. Here's a few things to try, just to become familiar with the meter:
What is the model number and "style" of the meter you have? (Digital LCD display or Analog type with a large calibrated meter face and swinging needle?)
The Digital meters are very simpe to master. The Analog style, takes a bit more time to master and read properly. Based on your answer, will give some tuitorial on how to use either style.
Swez
PS Chefing it up?
Hummm, toss on a Filet Mignon, (Med-rare pls), a few large prawns, a twice baked potatoe and a nice salad mix. What time should I come for dinner? HAPPY
demetman on 03/12/2006 00:51:03
Tonight it was pan roaster Waluu (a tasty fish aka Escalar) with crab fried rice, Thai red coconut curry sauce and pineapple salsa. If your ever in NJ I'll set you up like a fat cat at the restraunt I work at.
Ok, now I'm hungry for knowledge! The multimeter I purchased is a Radi Shack CatII 22-810 digital display. It shows ACV 200V +500V,DCV 500V down to 2V and OHM 200, 2K, 20K,200K +2M. Also DCA 2mA, 20mA + 200mA. Hopefully this instrument is adequite for basic tests needed. Talk to ya soon.
Victor on 03/12/2006 03:20:03
forget car audio for now, ....GRIN when are u inviting the CK gang for dinner????
swez on 03/12/2006 14:13:47
All the setup and test details are covered in the user's manual. They are simple to understand and very understandable. These notes start on page 19 and end on page 29. Just make sure you have the 9 volt battery installed, before taking any readings.
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rsk/Support/ProductManuals/2200810_PM_EN.pdf
A quick test for AC:
1. Set AC function selector to 200 volts
2. Insert probes into a standard wall socket (one probe into each vertical slot)
3. The reading you should see here will be between 115 - 125 volts
(this is the normal range, depending on age of your home and power line loads in your area)
DC Voltage Measurements:
1. Get a fresh battery (D, C, AA, AAA )
2. Make sure Red probe goes to Pos, Black to Neg on battery
3. Set the selector switch to 2 volts on DC and measure battery voltage (D, C, AA & AAA cell tests) You should see ~1.5 volts
4. Test car battery if you like:
a. Selector scale on 20 volt scale
b. Engine off reading: 12.0-12.5 volts is normal
c. Engine run readings: 13.5 - 14.5 volts is normal
Ohms readings:
1. Set selector dial to 200 ohm scale
2. Attach probes on the speaker/sub terminals (no amp connected)
3. Read the ohmic number on display (this is the number we need to determine how to set up your amp gain feature)
Got it?
Swez
PS If I make it back east, will definitely look ya up. That dish sounds wonderful... love curry and most fish dishes from the grill or baked/broiled. YUM!!!
demetman on 03/12/2006 18:04:15
Ok Swez,
I had to buy a few tools to remove sub from box.(I only had about 1" of room between seat and sub box). Now I will explain as clearly as possible how the L7 is wired. From inside box 2 wires with female disconnects. 1st wire leads to coil 1+ twists w/ an unconnected wire and leads to coil 2+. The other wire leads to coil 1- twists w/ an unconnected wire and leads to coil 2-.
I had to remove sub from box to exmine wiring. I also tested each voice coil and each reads 2.0. I am assuming this confirms a 2ohm sub. This stuff is making a little more sense now, however wiring subs still confuses me. Is this the correct for this sub?
Ready for next steps.
PS Victor If I could get the CK crew over for dinner I'd fix all your appetites and maybe you guys could straighten my audio issues out!
swez on 03/12/2006 18:54:10
This sounds like a 4+4 DVC, wired in parallel = 2 ohms net
Does it look like this: 1 DVC driver with Voice Coils in Parallel
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161
To confirm that, re-install sub to enclosure and measure ohmic load at the speaker box lug terminals. (The ones that connect to your amplifier ["females disconnects"] from outside the box) If you still get 2.0 ohms, we are done with this phase and you can put the box back in your ride.
The next step is to measure voltage at your amp with a test signal tone. The target AC voltage here, (with sub not connected to amp) should be at or just under 31.6 volts AC. If you do not have a test tone CD, we can still come very close by using a regular music CD with some long, heavy bass tones.
What cuts do you have that may have this characteristic?
Swez
PS Victor would have a long way to go for a dinner in NJ. He lives in India... SMILE
demetman on 03/12/2006 21:22:29
Well I wouldn't mind traveling to India for dinner myself. Love Indian food.
Yes Swez, the wiring is set up as the 4x4 DVC in parallel diagram indicates. I did try to measure voltage at the amp and came up with a negative number.(probrabely did it wrong) I removed speaker wires from subwoofer output and probed red to+ and black to- with multimeter set at 200V( DCV) setting. Should I also remove wires from 300/2 when measuring volts. I am looking at my multimeter now and correct me if I'm wrong, I think I should use ACV 200V setting not DCV 200V setting. Also when testing do you need high volume?
I do have DJ Magic Mike cuts which produce very low and heavy bass frequancies. Also the box lug terminals read 2ohms and sub is reinstalled. Thanks
swez on 03/12/2006 22:58:53
Yes, you need to use the AC voltage scale, 200 volts AC is the correct setting.
If you can burn CD's from Windows Media Player, I have some test tones you can use for both sub amp and full range. These will give you more accurate setting for the gain control than you might get with DJ Mike cuts.
I can send them to you via attachments if you wish. My e-mail is:
swezdp@juno.com
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 09:35:47
When I tested for input voltage with the proper setting using Magic Mike, input voltage peaked at 25.5V. I sent you an email in regards to sub amp and full range test tones. Thanks for offering.
swez on 03/13/2006 11:52:42
Have sent you some test tone files to preview and play with. Thanks to Victor, CLAP you'll have 40, 50, 80 Hz., tones and Pink noise files as well.
When you have listened to them, burned or loaded them to an MP3 player, will review the steps on how to use them to tweak both amps.
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 13:22:36
Swez + Victor,
Thanks for the tones, I have downloaded and burnt them to disk. All wires are diconnected from amps and I'm ready to go.
swez on 03/13/2006 13:50:49
Alrighty, the next step is to calibrate your HU, amp gains for sub and full range. Here are the steps:
Sub Calibration:
1. Turn off all tone controls in HU (flat = no cut or boost)
2. Turn HU volume up to 80% of max output on volume control
3. Disconnect sub from 500/1 amp
4. Set amp gain above 4 volts initially
5. Set LPF to 80 Hz., 'Q' a 1.1 and no bass boost or bass EQ, centering frequency on 40 Hz.
6. Connect Meter to sub amp outputs (polarity does not matter)
7. Set meter scale to 200 VAC
8. Start the test tone for 50 Hz and play on continous loop
9. Read meter as you adjust amp gain until you see 31.5 volts AC on the meter
10. Now, go to 80 & 40 Hz., test tones and see what meter reading you get at the sub output. (hopefully, it will be at or just below 31.5 volts)
Once you have this basic step accomplished, then hook up sub and run through a sound test at all 3 bass tones and listen for clean, undistorted tones. (Shut the system off while connecting the sub)
After you get the bass system up to snuff, we'll repeat the process on your 300/2 amp. Here, we only use the Pink Noise files, gain adjustments and optimize the voltage out of this amp as well.
Good luck,
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 15:22:52
Cool Swez,
Sub amp voltage set at pricesely 31.6V and the 500/1 has not shut down at high volumes. Infact the sub is putting out much more clean bass than previous setting. It seems like JL Dealer had voltage set very low. Is this most likely the reason 500/1 was shutting down?
I set the input sens. voltage while awaiting your reply and used 500/1 manual as a guide. When I adjusted input voltage for 500/1 I set subwoofer control on HU to 11 which is 3/4 max output as stated in manual. All other controls were set flat at O. Is that OK?
When I set input sens. for 300/1 am I looking for 24.1V?
Victor on 03/13/2006 16:21:24
Swez, mind cutting and pasting various parts of this post and doing up a tutorial on gain settings????
I am sure it would be very useful to have such a tutorial in the article section..
Victor..
swez on 03/13/2006 18:22:37
Dem,
You have done well. CLAP The next step will be to calibrate the 300/2 as you did here with the sub amp. Follow the same steps with HU setup and use the "pink noise" test tones provided.
Here, you will set the amp HPF to 80 Hz as well. The Sub amp LPF should be set to match... 80 Hz. The target voltage is 24.1 volts as mentioned for a 4 ohm load.
Once you have the target voltage set here, the last step will be to balance out the 300/1 and 500/1 so they have relatively even acoutical output to respective speakers.
Here's the numbers I calculated with target voltage, resistance and watts:
500/1 amp: 499.28 watts
300/2 amp: 145.20 watts/channel (4 ohms/channel)
Victor,
I might consider writing a revision to a previous post in the DIY part of the forum. However, this thread pertains to JL series amps. The same voltage numbers will be different on other amp brands. The formula will be the same, but wattage, voltage and resistance values will differ from system to system.
Watts = V*V/R
Swez
PS When you are done with all the tweaks and setup parameters, I would hope the amps will remain playing strong and not cut out. Once we get that result, go back the guy that installed your system and ask for a 20% refund on the labor fees as you had to do so much extra work to correct their mistakes. "Here boys... listen to this kick butt sound... It did not sound like this, the last time I was here" !!!
Victor on 03/13/2006 18:49:13
Ya thats what i meant to say, revise and put up a generalised tutorial if possible .
Victor..
demetman on 03/14/2006 11:50:27
Hi Swez,
I am currently trying to adjust input sens. for 300/2 and when I probe speaker outputs with voltameter set at 200ACV I'm only showing 2.1V. The same results showed last night so I thought I may have needed a better angle at speaker outputs.(amp is angled on rack) I unmounted amp today and probed outputs well. Amp is currently set at LPF 80. Any suggestions? Thanks
PS I am using pink noise out of fase and pink noise mono
demetman on 03/14/2006 13:16:49
Swez, Never mind my last message I used the radio and caibrated the sens. to peaks of voltage. After I finished I crancked volume up to 19 on head(not accssively loud) and system still shuts down.
Do you think I should take truck back to JL dealer for troubleshooting, or is there anything else you can think of? This stinks ha? I'm sure they will just readjust amps to previous settings.
swez on 03/14/2006 18:29:32
For your 300/2, no LPF is used. Use the HPF, set at 80 Hz.
As for input sensitivity, there is a dual range input switch on this amp. Use the one that allows up to 8.0 volts and set sensitivity at ~5.0 volts and measure amp output voltage w/ meter until you get the target value of 24.1 VAC.
While you are at it, remove the speaker wires from this amp and use the ohms scale to measure resistance of each speaker. (LF/RF) They sould read the same resistance of approximately 4.0 ohms each. If you get a very low reading on one or both, (under 2 ohms) this may be the problem and why your system is shutting down.
Also, try this... disconnect the sub RCA inputs and only run the 300/2 with the pink noise tones. Radio signals are often very compressed and tend to give less reliable signal levels for calibrations. If we can get the target voltage on your 300/2 and amp does not shut down, we are headed in the right direction. If the voltage is very low from the 300/2 amp, there is a very good reason for it. That's where we shall focus for now.
BTW, how did the Tech set up your RCA wiring to amps from HU RCA's? He/she has a few workable options:
1. Front channel RCA's to 300/2 amp, Sub channel RCA's to 500/1?
2. Front channel RCA's to 300/2 amp, jumpers from 300/2 RCA outs to inputs on 500/1?
3. Other?
Can you take digital pics of amp settings used and fwd them to me via e-mail? That might help if I can see a few things we might be
overlooking.
The JL shop is an option. But I would ask for their best Tech to review the setup and show him/her what you have done to date. I would also write down your current settings and if you remeber them, how they were set before we started tinkering.
Swez
PS "This stinks huh''? Well, this is where the rubber meets the road. Troubleshooting is hard enough when I have the car in my hands. It's even more challenging to use anothers eyes, hands and understanding of things, to figure out what is actually going on. That's where the fun begins in earnest. Hang in there a bit longer before throwing up the white flag.
demetman on 03/15/2006 00:18:35
Thnks for the insite Swez. I will perform all tests mentioned above, take some pics tomorrow and try to get them to you. I had lasik eye surgery today so it may be a little difficult to see what is going on. Thanks
swez on 03/15/2006 05:13:37
No hurry. Give your eyes a chance to re-calibrate before digging into this project much deeper. We are not far from reaching a conclusion about this install. Retracing the installer's steps can be a bit challenging. However, once we find the glitch, the rest will fall right into place.
Swez
PS How was that eye surgery? Do you notice a big difference in vision, now that the process was done? I would love to dump my reading only glasses some day. Such an annoyance to have to carry extra eyeware when I fish the streams at night. Tying on a fresh #12 (or smaller) fly, can be challenging when the lenses fog up. Whaaaa!
demetman on 03/15/2006 13:55:52
Swez,
So you are a fisherman by hobby? I do a great deal of salt water fishing here in NJ. Fishing here is outstanding, especially for large Striped Bass. The Stripers are just starting there southward bound migration from NC to spawn in the Deleware and back bays. This makes for some real good times and tasty eats.
As far as the lasik eye surgery, I encountered some problems and was only able to have one eye done yesterday. The proceure was suppost to be an enhancement to a previous surgery I had last June. Right now my right eye is very irritated and I can't even open it.(not a real happy camper right now) I will regain my vision in about 7 days. The real bummer is my trip to San Fran leaving this Sun with only one good eye to see out of.
This project is going to have be on hold until I return from San Fran next weekend unfortunately. When I get back I will take a deep look into the install, documenting how things were installed using my digital camera. I will be around this weekend but pretty busy at work with St. Patty's Day coming. Talk to you later.
swez on 03/15/2006 16:24:04
Good luck with your eye healing. With luck, you may get some usable vision back before your trip home from San Fran!
Fishing? Yes, I am hopelessly hooked on that one for many years. I used to only do spinning gear. Last year, I took up fly-fishing again, after a 20 year sabbaticle. Last season was just plain excellent! Didn't even look at all my spinning gear. CLAP
Strppers! Ahhh, did some Stripper fishing in TN a few years back with a buddy. Man, did we have a blast. They got very active about 1.5 hours before dark and our boat pulled in over 60 while the other boat nabbed over 90 in under 2 hours. Needless to say, we were very happy campers and very tired puppies that night.
These were fresh water Strippers. Average size was about 2-4 lbs. A few peaked over 6 lbs. We released all back to the water to grow up. That was my first time out for Strippers too. Dang, they fought hard on light tackle too. It was Phu-uuhhh! SMILE
Wonder how they'd feel on a fly rig? Probably need a #7-10 outfit, sinking line and large format minnow type streamers or bead headed sinkers? THINK
Am sure these are annalgous to large Steelhead, Coho or Browns? (But, a lot less spooky) I did manage several nice smallmouth bass and a few bullheads in the river last season.
Once you hook up with a 4-8 lb scrapper in the river currents, "hang on baby" ... they like to run for cover like rocks, weed beds and log jams. Couple that with a 3-5 MPH current, it's a very nice tug -o-war. Keep in mind, we generally used 4-8 lb tippets, depending on water conditions and fly choices. Can't horse them out with such light lines huh? Ohhhh boy, Trout season opens April 1. GRIN
Come on April,
Swez HAPPY
demetman on 03/27/2006 21:02:14
Swez,
Hows it going? I am home and settled from my vaca. I have some updates from my amps/voltage problems you were helping me out with. Well, just before I left for San Fran my left side tweeter was making a loud static noise when the system was on. I decided to call the shop who did the instal to take a look at it. I discussed the amp/shutdown stuation I was having and they agreed to keep the truck for the week.
After my trip I stopped in to see what the deal was. Apparently I had a couple bad connections in the engine comp wiring recently done. A loose ring terminal from alt to fuse block and a loose ring terminal from bat neg to ground. They diagnosed a serious short causing amps to shut down. After new connections were made the system goes strong only shutting down on occasion. As far as tweeter static goes, I was told I have a bad crossover and it had to be replaced. It is under warranty and the shop said they will instal new one when it arrives.
To be onest with you Swez, I think I am going to sell my equip minus the 300/4 and the a/d/s/ components. I will be looking into a new vehicle after the summer and I want to start putting together a system now for the future. I have some good ideas now but I will need some expert opinions before I buy. Thanks for your time and help thus far.
Demetrios
compvr15s on 03/27/2006 21:09:31
hey i think the best idea for your new vehicle would be to wait till you get it just save money for your system untill then... who knows what will be out in a year ya know? the way technology is they may come out was some killer equipment, not likey but if ya save money now like 10 dollar a week or whatever ya can afford, that will definitly help when it gets time to buy the new gear, i would definitly keep the jl amp tho, and the components are also very good gear.... just my two cents.....
swez on 03/27/2006 22:47:30
Well, from the techs point of view, you had a few loose connections on the wiring and may have been losing a ground periodically. If there was a major short, a fuse would blow, the battery would die and maybe take the ALT with it. That's why we always fuse the amp power lines, up near the BAT.
Bad crossover? Could well be. A few cooked componets in the xover are enough to cause the tweeter problems noted.
Agreed, stay with your JL 300/2 (or is it 300/4?) for the front comps. Can always downsize on the sub amp and use a single sub with very good results. The 250/1 is a nice option and draws less power. Yes, a 3dB loss in Bass SPL, but that can be made up with a ported enclosure.
Give a rough idea of what level of system you wish to try next as we'll hash it out until you are happy. Figure out a workable budget and then we'll get to work on the planning stages.
Swez
PS Going for another truck or something different?
demetman on 03/27/2006 23:15:36
I will definately hold on to the a/d/s/ comps and the 300/4 to push them for the next system. I will part with the 500/1 and and the L7 and start the low end off with a 1000/1. My current system has excellant imaging with the a/d/s/ comps but the L7 is not as dynamic as I projected.
I'm looking at a pair of 12W6v2 sealed or a single 12W7 in the JL sealed box. I'm not ruling out the 13W7 yet I just haven't had a chance to compare the difference in sound of the above mentioned subs. It doesn't look like JL will be doing anything different this year(aside from their new W3v3 series subs).
You make a valid point to wait and save until the new vehicle is purchased, I just want to get it right this time. You already know how expensive this hobby is. It's the worst when you finally put a system together and 2 months later you want more.
compvr15s on 03/28/2006 02:57:15
oh yea i know how this business works lol.... but you cant go wrong with either of your choices, tha w7 is nasty all around, w6s are very nice and clean too.. have not compared them next to each other but they are both amazing... im sure you will be happy either way you go, will be a big improvment from the L7.... good luck
swez on 03/28/2006 06:50:44
The L7 Kicker is really designed for high SPL Bass systems. The JL can do SPL well, but they are very well made and in the proper enclosure, they sound very smooth too.
Are you planning to use the wiring from your present truck, installing into your new ride? If yes, it will not only save money, but if you remove it all yourself, take notes/pics, you'll have a better idea how to install everything in the next vehicle. That can save a small fortune over a Professional Install.
Think that over a bit,
Swez
demetman on 03/28/2006 10:24:07
I hear you there Swez. I will utilize any wiring possible, however most power wiring may be to short moving from single cab truck to an SUV(4 runner, etc). I noticed my comps were installed using stock wiring and connections were taped only. The a/d/s/ cam with very nice wiring and installation hardware. My wife and I have a third vehicle (for now) so I will take my time with the install and work out any speed bumps along the way.
When I consider housing the sub(s) in an enclosure are the JL factory pro wedge boxes the best possible sealed enclosures for the subs? From your experience how would 2 -12W6v2 compare to a 12W7 in a hatchback rear firing environment? I listen to all genre of music from Allmen Brothers to Frank Zappa with a little heavy metal, and maybe some hip hop in between. Audiophile quality music reproduction is most important to me. There is something about dynamic bass that has had a hold of me since I was about 15-16years old.
Thanks
swez on 03/28/2006 12:19:04
Depending on how much sub power you really want, Pro-wedge is a nice option if you wish to buy, plug and go. You can get great results in both SQ & SPL with either the W7 (1000 Wrms) or a pair of the W6-v2 (400 Wrms/sub). I would consider the dual 10" system for compactness and plenty of SPL, even if you keep the 500/1 amp.
Yes, you can go larger on a bass amp to the 1000/1 series amp. It's going to take some major electrical upgrades, but this amp will power either sub system with plenty of reserve power. (100 A, external ANL fuse required)
Yes, I have been into HI-FI and a musician since about 16 years old. Stopped playing years ago, but now find Pro and Car audio a very satisfying hobby/profession now.
Swez
I have a couple of questions now that I have beefed up my electrical system. I am trying to learn each specific function of my JL 500/1 so I can optimize the sound of my system. I have read the manual cover to cover twice and feel comfortable with 75% of the tuning features.
The part where I get lost is adjusting the input sensativity to the target Voltage. This amp is powering a 10SL 7 2ohm sub. Also I could use some schooling on what is center freq, filter freq, "Q" and how to properly adjust these controls.
I do understand Infrasonic filter, bass boost, Input voltage and slope. Also, how does one determine HU voltage output, how does this relate to sensativity adjustment to this amp.
Thanks for any input.
Replies (39)
swez on 03/9/2006 09:36:45
All good questions and the JL manual covers them, but more at "Techie" levels. (not "laymen's level) This is why JL recommends a qualified JL dealer to install their gear. No matter though, let's walk through it now.
1. HU level RCA voltage is at maximum at 75-80% of max volume. The HU maker will usually include that voltage value with its technical data specs. (typ #'s: 2.0, 2.5, 4.0 voltage values are most common) This voltage is with all tone controls set to "flat", (No boost/cut) and all DSP devices de-activated. Check HU specs for rated voltage output value from the sub RCA outs.
2. A reference test tone CD is recommended for calibration work. This tone test CD will have a variety of long tones at various frequencies and its output level is at a reference value of 0dB. For sub tweaking, we concentrate on frequencies between 35-100 Hz. A 50 Hz., test tone, with 10-30 seconds duration, is a good choice for calibration. (Sheffield Labs has a number of good test CD's available)
2b. A "pink noise" test tone is also useful. It has full range of all audible frequencies. Most test CD's included this one as well. "Pink noise", sounds like an FM tuner off station.
3. Now, let's assume you have a reference test CD on hand and know the HU RCA voltage output value. (as outlined above) The next step is to determine the amps' operating load. (ohmic load value of the sub[s] to be used with this amp. You mentioned the Kicker 10SL 7. Is that the 2+2 or 4+4 version coil set? (this is key to your amp voltage setup calibration) Comment please...
Parametric Bass Control features:
4. The Centering frequency control is best set at 40-50 Hz. This is where most low bass content is located. One can try other set points as desired. But, most will find desired results at 40-50 Hz.
5. The "Q" setting controls how wide or narrow the bandwidth slope of the filter will be. Think of this as a "Bell Curve" adjustment feature. The larger the "Q" number used, the narrower the bell shape will be. (Narrow bandwidth) Numbers below 1.6, are wide bell curves. For normal use, a "Q" setting of 1.1 - 1.6 should be fine. (Feel free to experiment with other values and see how this feature works)
6. You can use the boost feature to bring up the low end bass feel if needed. Do so sparingly though, as too much boost will drive the amp into clipping and high distortion values at high SPL output. (Boost range should be fine between 0 to +3 dB) Don't go above +6dB of bass boost.
7. The infrasonic filter is not needed for sealed sub enclosures. If you have a ported box, set the filter to match the port tuned frequency of that box. This filter protects the sub from damage that can occur, when sub is fed high power signals, below the port tuned range. (More on this topic later, if you ask)
8. The last step in calibration is to set the output voltage at the amp. Here, we are looking for a target AC voltage from the amp outputs, matched to the sub[s] ohmic load. This is done with the test tone CD and HU settings noted earlier. You'll need a Multi-meter for this step. These are inexpensive and one can get them at WalMart, Radio Shack or most good autoparts stores. A digital read out is nice and easy to use. (under $20.00 is about right)
FYI: I use a GB Instruments, Model: GDT-11 for most electrical measuring. Got it at WalMart for like $18.00. (AC/DC voltage, ohmic ranger, low amperage tester and diode test features) These are all basic features most guys will ever need. Get one if you don't have a multimeter now.
OK, covered all the basics here. Now, all you need is a test tone Reference CD and the meter. Please advise what sub coil configuration is used on the L7 sub. Once that is confimed, we can proceed with the tweaking process on both amps.
Swez COFFEE
demetman on 03/9/2006 22:11:26
Hey Swez,
Thanks for the reply. My sub is an SL102ohm model and my HU is an Alpine 9851. This is the 2nd day after my electrical system upgrade and despiter the new D34/78 Optima battery, 160 amp alternator and BIG 3 using 2awg wire and all the good accessories(gold terminals, streetwire fuse and holder and gold P3 gold battery terminals) my system has been shutting down at volumes around 22 on HU. At this volume level there is no audible distortion or clipping from amp. Sub sounds good as well. It's misterious and hopefully I can get to the bottom of this. That 500/1 should pump that L7 sub with no problem shouldn't it?
Swez, I thought I was good to go after my upgrade, I guess there is some more figuring out to do.
I don't believe the car audio shop who installed my system does everything by the book. The JL manual that is. For example I stopped in to ask a few questions pertaining to tuning the 500/1 and was told that the way they set the sensativity on a their amp installs is by ear only. Who nows maybe an experienced installer can do it by ear. I just wouldn't think so do to the fact that every install is different and has many different factors.
Any ideas?
Thanks, Demet
demetman on 03/9/2006 23:43:20
I thought it might be helpful if you knew current system configuration.
500/1 output mode set full range, filter slope 12dB, filter freq 40(Hz),filter mode LP, infrosonic filter off, Q 0.7, Bass EQ on, center freq 20, boost +2(dB), amp lp filter 12dB, filter freq 65(Hz), input voltage low, input sens. at 1/2, signal sensing off.
300/2 preamp output mode/high pass, freq range x1, filter freq 120(Hz), filter mode/HP, input sens. a little less than 1/2 and input voltage low.
HU Alpine 9851 set at- Bass +1 at 80 hz, Treble +4 at 12.5 KHZ, and subwoofer set at +10, +15 is max
The 500/1 is pushing 06SL7102ohm sub in small sealed box. 300/2 is powering a/d/s/ 346cs 6.5" component speakers 100 watts rms.
Any input is always greatly appreciated.
PS I am always happy to donate to this site. I have learned a great deal thus far and respect all who take time to help people out. Thanks
swez on 03/10/2006 00:47:59
That HU states a 2.0 volt RCA output level. This is typically reached at 75-80% of HU volume, all tone and EQ features set to "flat". ("0" cut or boost)
Yes, an experienced tech can do most of this by ear. However, for the most diligent ones, use JL steps as noted in the install manual.
Your amp gains for the 500/1 & 300/2 should be set at 2.0 volts. This is what the HU specs indicate for that HU model.
Since your syetem is shutting down, this indicates either wiring problems, amp gain setting are not correct or the sub is not wired properly to the 500/1. A step by step elimination process may be needed to figure out what the root cause[s] is/are.
Again, that sub mentioned, has a big factor on sub amp and overall system performance. If this is a 2+2 coil set, the sub coils should be wired in series for a net 4 ohm load. However, if the sub is a net 2 ohms load, this is a 4+4 coil set, wired in parallel. It seems we don't know that detail right now. This could be the root of all issues noted.
FYI: If the 500/1 feeds the 300/2, and the 500/1 suts off, your whole syetem will also shut down.
Do you have Yahoo IM or Skype's VoIP installed? If you have either, we can chat and work through issues quickly. My YIM ID is "swedp". Same for Skype. www.skype.com for installing Skype to your computer. A great program for voice chats, file sharing, links and more.
Swez
demetman on 03/10/2006 10:00:36
Swez, unfortunately I don't have the above mentioned accounts to chat. I'm pretty basic when it comes to computer use. The L7 box has a sticker with a bar and states 2ohm. If you can give me some steps to investigate this issue I will complete them and report back.
I am trying not to return to installer, because I don't trust them. They have given me some false and misleading info in the past.(One guy insisted a 10W7 is a duel voice coil sub and could be pushed by 2- 500/1, one to each coil)
Victor on 03/10/2006 10:08:06
do you have a multimeter handy??? if yes then the ohmage of each voice coil on the sub can be measured individually .
swez on 03/10/2006 12:42:30
The sub may be marked 2 ohms, but an ohmmeter is the proper diagnostic tool to confirm what the amp actually sees. It is a very easy test to perform and a decent digital multimeter can be had for under $20.00.
If you have a meter handy or can borrow one from a buddy, you should expect a reading of about 1.6 ohms, if the sub is the 4+4 coil set, wired in parallel.
If this is a 2+2 coil set, wired in series, the reading should be more like 3.4 ohms.
Know the actual ohmic readings, them we can walk through the other stages of your tweaking and fine tuning.
FYI: If you get an ohmic reading well below 1.2 ohms, this may be themain reason your amp is shutting off.
Please advise,
Swez
PS Sign up for SKYPE. It's free and you can get it at: www.skype.com
This has a great VoIP system and text, voice or linking can be done with ease. I am not a computer geek, but this program is better than a phone. All that one needs is a mike and headphones.
demetman on 03/11/2006 01:18:12
Yes Swez, I Purchased a multimeter after you advised me to upgrade from my simple battery/alternator output device. I bought it from Radio Shack $19.95 AC /DC up to 2ohm yellow with red and black probes. Never really used one and I am not familiar with using this tool for basic readings. I am quite embarresed to admit but I am determined to learn. I'm a smart guy and pick up on things fast. Just need descriptive directions and a good mentor. I am determined to learn and these issuse are just a stepping stone to bigger and better projects. As always I do appreciate your patients and efforts in helping me resolve my issues. Just let me know what I can do to begin this trouble shooting process. Also I will look into skype.com for easier communication next week. I am busy chefing it up at work during the weekends.
swez on 03/11/2006 10:41:34
The instructions that came with it (meter) should explain how to read and use all features. But there are a few simple tests you can try, just to get a feel for how it works and read common voltages. Here's a few things to try, just to become familiar with the meter:
What is the model number and "style" of the meter you have? (Digital LCD display or Analog type with a large calibrated meter face and swinging needle?)
The Digital meters are very simpe to master. The Analog style, takes a bit more time to master and read properly. Based on your answer, will give some tuitorial on how to use either style.
Swez
PS Chefing it up?
Hummm, toss on a Filet Mignon, (Med-rare pls), a few large prawns, a twice baked potatoe and a nice salad mix. What time should I come for dinner? HAPPY
demetman on 03/12/2006 00:51:03
Tonight it was pan roaster Waluu (a tasty fish aka Escalar) with crab fried rice, Thai red coconut curry sauce and pineapple salsa. If your ever in NJ I'll set you up like a fat cat at the restraunt I work at.
Ok, now I'm hungry for knowledge! The multimeter I purchased is a Radi Shack CatII 22-810 digital display. It shows ACV 200V +500V,DCV 500V down to 2V and OHM 200, 2K, 20K,200K +2M. Also DCA 2mA, 20mA + 200mA. Hopefully this instrument is adequite for basic tests needed. Talk to ya soon.
Victor on 03/12/2006 03:20:03
forget car audio for now, ....GRIN when are u inviting the CK gang for dinner????
swez on 03/12/2006 14:13:47
All the setup and test details are covered in the user's manual. They are simple to understand and very understandable. These notes start on page 19 and end on page 29. Just make sure you have the 9 volt battery installed, before taking any readings.
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rsk/Support/ProductManuals/2200810_PM_EN.pdf
A quick test for AC:
1. Set AC function selector to 200 volts
2. Insert probes into a standard wall socket (one probe into each vertical slot)
3. The reading you should see here will be between 115 - 125 volts
(this is the normal range, depending on age of your home and power line loads in your area)
DC Voltage Measurements:
1. Get a fresh battery (D, C, AA, AAA )
2. Make sure Red probe goes to Pos, Black to Neg on battery
3. Set the selector switch to 2 volts on DC and measure battery voltage (D, C, AA & AAA cell tests) You should see ~1.5 volts
4. Test car battery if you like:
a. Selector scale on 20 volt scale
b. Engine off reading: 12.0-12.5 volts is normal
c. Engine run readings: 13.5 - 14.5 volts is normal
Ohms readings:
1. Set selector dial to 200 ohm scale
2. Attach probes on the speaker/sub terminals (no amp connected)
3. Read the ohmic number on display (this is the number we need to determine how to set up your amp gain feature)
Got it?
Swez
PS If I make it back east, will definitely look ya up. That dish sounds wonderful... love curry and most fish dishes from the grill or baked/broiled. YUM!!!
demetman on 03/12/2006 18:04:15
Ok Swez,
I had to buy a few tools to remove sub from box.(I only had about 1" of room between seat and sub box). Now I will explain as clearly as possible how the L7 is wired. From inside box 2 wires with female disconnects. 1st wire leads to coil 1+ twists w/ an unconnected wire and leads to coil 2+. The other wire leads to coil 1- twists w/ an unconnected wire and leads to coil 2-.
I had to remove sub from box to exmine wiring. I also tested each voice coil and each reads 2.0. I am assuming this confirms a 2ohm sub. This stuff is making a little more sense now, however wiring subs still confuses me. Is this the correct for this sub?
Ready for next steps.
PS Victor If I could get the CK crew over for dinner I'd fix all your appetites and maybe you guys could straighten my audio issues out!
swez on 03/12/2006 18:54:10
This sounds like a 4+4 DVC, wired in parallel = 2 ohms net
Does it look like this: 1 DVC driver with Voice Coils in Parallel
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161
To confirm that, re-install sub to enclosure and measure ohmic load at the speaker box lug terminals. (The ones that connect to your amplifier ["females disconnects"] from outside the box) If you still get 2.0 ohms, we are done with this phase and you can put the box back in your ride.
The next step is to measure voltage at your amp with a test signal tone. The target AC voltage here, (with sub not connected to amp) should be at or just under 31.6 volts AC. If you do not have a test tone CD, we can still come very close by using a regular music CD with some long, heavy bass tones.
What cuts do you have that may have this characteristic?
Swez
PS Victor would have a long way to go for a dinner in NJ. He lives in India... SMILE
demetman on 03/12/2006 21:22:29
Well I wouldn't mind traveling to India for dinner myself. Love Indian food.
Yes Swez, the wiring is set up as the 4x4 DVC in parallel diagram indicates. I did try to measure voltage at the amp and came up with a negative number.(probrabely did it wrong) I removed speaker wires from subwoofer output and probed red to+ and black to- with multimeter set at 200V( DCV) setting. Should I also remove wires from 300/2 when measuring volts. I am looking at my multimeter now and correct me if I'm wrong, I think I should use ACV 200V setting not DCV 200V setting. Also when testing do you need high volume?
I do have DJ Magic Mike cuts which produce very low and heavy bass frequancies. Also the box lug terminals read 2ohms and sub is reinstalled. Thanks
swez on 03/12/2006 22:58:53
Yes, you need to use the AC voltage scale, 200 volts AC is the correct setting.
If you can burn CD's from Windows Media Player, I have some test tones you can use for both sub amp and full range. These will give you more accurate setting for the gain control than you might get with DJ Mike cuts.
I can send them to you via attachments if you wish. My e-mail is:
swezdp@juno.com
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 09:35:47
When I tested for input voltage with the proper setting using Magic Mike, input voltage peaked at 25.5V. I sent you an email in regards to sub amp and full range test tones. Thanks for offering.
swez on 03/13/2006 11:52:42
Have sent you some test tone files to preview and play with. Thanks to Victor, CLAP you'll have 40, 50, 80 Hz., tones and Pink noise files as well.
When you have listened to them, burned or loaded them to an MP3 player, will review the steps on how to use them to tweak both amps.
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 13:22:36
Swez + Victor,
Thanks for the tones, I have downloaded and burnt them to disk. All wires are diconnected from amps and I'm ready to go.
swez on 03/13/2006 13:50:49
Alrighty, the next step is to calibrate your HU, amp gains for sub and full range. Here are the steps:
Sub Calibration:
1. Turn off all tone controls in HU (flat = no cut or boost)
2. Turn HU volume up to 80% of max output on volume control
3. Disconnect sub from 500/1 amp
4. Set amp gain above 4 volts initially
5. Set LPF to 80 Hz., 'Q' a 1.1 and no bass boost or bass EQ, centering frequency on 40 Hz.
6. Connect Meter to sub amp outputs (polarity does not matter)
7. Set meter scale to 200 VAC
8. Start the test tone for 50 Hz and play on continous loop
9. Read meter as you adjust amp gain until you see 31.5 volts AC on the meter
10. Now, go to 80 & 40 Hz., test tones and see what meter reading you get at the sub output. (hopefully, it will be at or just below 31.5 volts)
Once you have this basic step accomplished, then hook up sub and run through a sound test at all 3 bass tones and listen for clean, undistorted tones. (Shut the system off while connecting the sub)
After you get the bass system up to snuff, we'll repeat the process on your 300/2 amp. Here, we only use the Pink Noise files, gain adjustments and optimize the voltage out of this amp as well.
Good luck,
Swez
demetman on 03/13/2006 15:22:52
Cool Swez,
Sub amp voltage set at pricesely 31.6V and the 500/1 has not shut down at high volumes. Infact the sub is putting out much more clean bass than previous setting. It seems like JL Dealer had voltage set very low. Is this most likely the reason 500/1 was shutting down?
I set the input sens. voltage while awaiting your reply and used 500/1 manual as a guide. When I adjusted input voltage for 500/1 I set subwoofer control on HU to 11 which is 3/4 max output as stated in manual. All other controls were set flat at O. Is that OK?
When I set input sens. for 300/1 am I looking for 24.1V?
Victor on 03/13/2006 16:21:24
Swez, mind cutting and pasting various parts of this post and doing up a tutorial on gain settings????
I am sure it would be very useful to have such a tutorial in the article section..
Victor..
swez on 03/13/2006 18:22:37
Dem,
You have done well. CLAP The next step will be to calibrate the 300/2 as you did here with the sub amp. Follow the same steps with HU setup and use the "pink noise" test tones provided.
Here, you will set the amp HPF to 80 Hz as well. The Sub amp LPF should be set to match... 80 Hz. The target voltage is 24.1 volts as mentioned for a 4 ohm load.
Once you have the target voltage set here, the last step will be to balance out the 300/1 and 500/1 so they have relatively even acoutical output to respective speakers.
Here's the numbers I calculated with target voltage, resistance and watts:
500/1 amp: 499.28 watts
300/2 amp: 145.20 watts/channel (4 ohms/channel)
Victor,
I might consider writing a revision to a previous post in the DIY part of the forum. However, this thread pertains to JL series amps. The same voltage numbers will be different on other amp brands. The formula will be the same, but wattage, voltage and resistance values will differ from system to system.
Watts = V*V/R
Swez
PS When you are done with all the tweaks and setup parameters, I would hope the amps will remain playing strong and not cut out. Once we get that result, go back the guy that installed your system and ask for a 20% refund on the labor fees as you had to do so much extra work to correct their mistakes. "Here boys... listen to this kick butt sound... It did not sound like this, the last time I was here" !!!
Victor on 03/13/2006 18:49:13
Ya thats what i meant to say, revise and put up a generalised tutorial if possible .
Victor..
demetman on 03/14/2006 11:50:27
Hi Swez,
I am currently trying to adjust input sens. for 300/2 and when I probe speaker outputs with voltameter set at 200ACV I'm only showing 2.1V. The same results showed last night so I thought I may have needed a better angle at speaker outputs.(amp is angled on rack) I unmounted amp today and probed outputs well. Amp is currently set at LPF 80. Any suggestions? Thanks
PS I am using pink noise out of fase and pink noise mono
demetman on 03/14/2006 13:16:49
Swez, Never mind my last message I used the radio and caibrated the sens. to peaks of voltage. After I finished I crancked volume up to 19 on head(not accssively loud) and system still shuts down.
Do you think I should take truck back to JL dealer for troubleshooting, or is there anything else you can think of? This stinks ha? I'm sure they will just readjust amps to previous settings.
swez on 03/14/2006 18:29:32
For your 300/2, no LPF is used. Use the HPF, set at 80 Hz.
As for input sensitivity, there is a dual range input switch on this amp. Use the one that allows up to 8.0 volts and set sensitivity at ~5.0 volts and measure amp output voltage w/ meter until you get the target value of 24.1 VAC.
While you are at it, remove the speaker wires from this amp and use the ohms scale to measure resistance of each speaker. (LF/RF) They sould read the same resistance of approximately 4.0 ohms each. If you get a very low reading on one or both, (under 2 ohms) this may be the problem and why your system is shutting down.
Also, try this... disconnect the sub RCA inputs and only run the 300/2 with the pink noise tones. Radio signals are often very compressed and tend to give less reliable signal levels for calibrations. If we can get the target voltage on your 300/2 and amp does not shut down, we are headed in the right direction. If the voltage is very low from the 300/2 amp, there is a very good reason for it. That's where we shall focus for now.
BTW, how did the Tech set up your RCA wiring to amps from HU RCA's? He/she has a few workable options:
1. Front channel RCA's to 300/2 amp, Sub channel RCA's to 500/1?
2. Front channel RCA's to 300/2 amp, jumpers from 300/2 RCA outs to inputs on 500/1?
3. Other?
Can you take digital pics of amp settings used and fwd them to me via e-mail? That might help if I can see a few things we might be
overlooking.
The JL shop is an option. But I would ask for their best Tech to review the setup and show him/her what you have done to date. I would also write down your current settings and if you remeber them, how they were set before we started tinkering.
Swez
PS "This stinks huh''? Well, this is where the rubber meets the road. Troubleshooting is hard enough when I have the car in my hands. It's even more challenging to use anothers eyes, hands and understanding of things, to figure out what is actually going on. That's where the fun begins in earnest. Hang in there a bit longer before throwing up the white flag.
demetman on 03/15/2006 00:18:35
Thnks for the insite Swez. I will perform all tests mentioned above, take some pics tomorrow and try to get them to you. I had lasik eye surgery today so it may be a little difficult to see what is going on. Thanks
swez on 03/15/2006 05:13:37
No hurry. Give your eyes a chance to re-calibrate before digging into this project much deeper. We are not far from reaching a conclusion about this install. Retracing the installer's steps can be a bit challenging. However, once we find the glitch, the rest will fall right into place.
Swez
PS How was that eye surgery? Do you notice a big difference in vision, now that the process was done? I would love to dump my reading only glasses some day. Such an annoyance to have to carry extra eyeware when I fish the streams at night. Tying on a fresh #12 (or smaller) fly, can be challenging when the lenses fog up. Whaaaa!
demetman on 03/15/2006 13:55:52
Swez,
So you are a fisherman by hobby? I do a great deal of salt water fishing here in NJ. Fishing here is outstanding, especially for large Striped Bass. The Stripers are just starting there southward bound migration from NC to spawn in the Deleware and back bays. This makes for some real good times and tasty eats.
As far as the lasik eye surgery, I encountered some problems and was only able to have one eye done yesterday. The proceure was suppost to be an enhancement to a previous surgery I had last June. Right now my right eye is very irritated and I can't even open it.(not a real happy camper right now) I will regain my vision in about 7 days. The real bummer is my trip to San Fran leaving this Sun with only one good eye to see out of.
This project is going to have be on hold until I return from San Fran next weekend unfortunately. When I get back I will take a deep look into the install, documenting how things were installed using my digital camera. I will be around this weekend but pretty busy at work with St. Patty's Day coming. Talk to you later.
swez on 03/15/2006 16:24:04
Good luck with your eye healing. With luck, you may get some usable vision back before your trip home from San Fran!
Fishing? Yes, I am hopelessly hooked on that one for many years. I used to only do spinning gear. Last year, I took up fly-fishing again, after a 20 year sabbaticle. Last season was just plain excellent! Didn't even look at all my spinning gear. CLAP
Strppers! Ahhh, did some Stripper fishing in TN a few years back with a buddy. Man, did we have a blast. They got very active about 1.5 hours before dark and our boat pulled in over 60 while the other boat nabbed over 90 in under 2 hours. Needless to say, we were very happy campers and very tired puppies that night.
These were fresh water Strippers. Average size was about 2-4 lbs. A few peaked over 6 lbs. We released all back to the water to grow up. That was my first time out for Strippers too. Dang, they fought hard on light tackle too. It was Phu-uuhhh! SMILE
Wonder how they'd feel on a fly rig? Probably need a #7-10 outfit, sinking line and large format minnow type streamers or bead headed sinkers? THINK
Am sure these are annalgous to large Steelhead, Coho or Browns? (But, a lot less spooky) I did manage several nice smallmouth bass and a few bullheads in the river last season.
Once you hook up with a 4-8 lb scrapper in the river currents, "hang on baby" ... they like to run for cover like rocks, weed beds and log jams. Couple that with a 3-5 MPH current, it's a very nice tug -o-war. Keep in mind, we generally used 4-8 lb tippets, depending on water conditions and fly choices. Can't horse them out with such light lines huh? Ohhhh boy, Trout season opens April 1. GRIN
Come on April,
Swez HAPPY
demetman on 03/27/2006 21:02:14
Swez,
Hows it going? I am home and settled from my vaca. I have some updates from my amps/voltage problems you were helping me out with. Well, just before I left for San Fran my left side tweeter was making a loud static noise when the system was on. I decided to call the shop who did the instal to take a look at it. I discussed the amp/shutdown stuation I was having and they agreed to keep the truck for the week.
After my trip I stopped in to see what the deal was. Apparently I had a couple bad connections in the engine comp wiring recently done. A loose ring terminal from alt to fuse block and a loose ring terminal from bat neg to ground. They diagnosed a serious short causing amps to shut down. After new connections were made the system goes strong only shutting down on occasion. As far as tweeter static goes, I was told I have a bad crossover and it had to be replaced. It is under warranty and the shop said they will instal new one when it arrives.
To be onest with you Swez, I think I am going to sell my equip minus the 300/4 and the a/d/s/ components. I will be looking into a new vehicle after the summer and I want to start putting together a system now for the future. I have some good ideas now but I will need some expert opinions before I buy. Thanks for your time and help thus far.
Demetrios
compvr15s on 03/27/2006 21:09:31
hey i think the best idea for your new vehicle would be to wait till you get it just save money for your system untill then... who knows what will be out in a year ya know? the way technology is they may come out was some killer equipment, not likey but if ya save money now like 10 dollar a week or whatever ya can afford, that will definitly help when it gets time to buy the new gear, i would definitly keep the jl amp tho, and the components are also very good gear.... just my two cents.....
swez on 03/27/2006 22:47:30
Well, from the techs point of view, you had a few loose connections on the wiring and may have been losing a ground periodically. If there was a major short, a fuse would blow, the battery would die and maybe take the ALT with it. That's why we always fuse the amp power lines, up near the BAT.
Bad crossover? Could well be. A few cooked componets in the xover are enough to cause the tweeter problems noted.
Agreed, stay with your JL 300/2 (or is it 300/4?) for the front comps. Can always downsize on the sub amp and use a single sub with very good results. The 250/1 is a nice option and draws less power. Yes, a 3dB loss in Bass SPL, but that can be made up with a ported enclosure.
Give a rough idea of what level of system you wish to try next as we'll hash it out until you are happy. Figure out a workable budget and then we'll get to work on the planning stages.
Swez
PS Going for another truck or something different?
demetman on 03/27/2006 23:15:36
I will definately hold on to the a/d/s/ comps and the 300/4 to push them for the next system. I will part with the 500/1 and and the L7 and start the low end off with a 1000/1. My current system has excellant imaging with the a/d/s/ comps but the L7 is not as dynamic as I projected.
I'm looking at a pair of 12W6v2 sealed or a single 12W7 in the JL sealed box. I'm not ruling out the 13W7 yet I just haven't had a chance to compare the difference in sound of the above mentioned subs. It doesn't look like JL will be doing anything different this year(aside from their new W3v3 series subs).
You make a valid point to wait and save until the new vehicle is purchased, I just want to get it right this time. You already know how expensive this hobby is. It's the worst when you finally put a system together and 2 months later you want more.
compvr15s on 03/28/2006 02:57:15
oh yea i know how this business works lol.... but you cant go wrong with either of your choices, tha w7 is nasty all around, w6s are very nice and clean too.. have not compared them next to each other but they are both amazing... im sure you will be happy either way you go, will be a big improvment from the L7.... good luck
swez on 03/28/2006 06:50:44
The L7 Kicker is really designed for high SPL Bass systems. The JL can do SPL well, but they are very well made and in the proper enclosure, they sound very smooth too.
Are you planning to use the wiring from your present truck, installing into your new ride? If yes, it will not only save money, but if you remove it all yourself, take notes/pics, you'll have a better idea how to install everything in the next vehicle. That can save a small fortune over a Professional Install.
Think that over a bit,
Swez
demetman on 03/28/2006 10:24:07
I hear you there Swez. I will utilize any wiring possible, however most power wiring may be to short moving from single cab truck to an SUV(4 runner, etc). I noticed my comps were installed using stock wiring and connections were taped only. The a/d/s/ cam with very nice wiring and installation hardware. My wife and I have a third vehicle (for now) so I will take my time with the install and work out any speed bumps along the way.
When I consider housing the sub(s) in an enclosure are the JL factory pro wedge boxes the best possible sealed enclosures for the subs? From your experience how would 2 -12W6v2 compare to a 12W7 in a hatchback rear firing environment? I listen to all genre of music from Allmen Brothers to Frank Zappa with a little heavy metal, and maybe some hip hop in between. Audiophile quality music reproduction is most important to me. There is something about dynamic bass that has had a hold of me since I was about 15-16years old.
Thanks
swez on 03/28/2006 12:19:04
Depending on how much sub power you really want, Pro-wedge is a nice option if you wish to buy, plug and go. You can get great results in both SQ & SPL with either the W7 (1000 Wrms) or a pair of the W6-v2 (400 Wrms/sub). I would consider the dual 10" system for compactness and plenty of SPL, even if you keep the 500/1 amp.
Yes, you can go larger on a bass amp to the 1000/1 series amp. It's going to take some major electrical upgrades, but this amp will power either sub system with plenty of reserve power. (100 A, external ANL fuse required)
Yes, I have been into HI-FI and a musician since about 16 years old. Stopped playing years ago, but now find Pro and Car audio a very satisfying hobby/profession now.
Swez
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