i have JL 6.5 in front, JL 6*9 in the rear, and 2 sealed JL 10s.....i have had the system for a couple of months, i finally have it setup how i want, the only problem is i get ??? distortion / static / white noise ??? in my 6*9s when i play songs like oldies, country, ect. when they sing words with S's but i never hear it any other time and i play everything from rock to punk to metal to rap to oldies....got any advice?
(thanks for all the help over the years)
Replies (10)
swez on 02/20/2006 16:09:11
This could just be a matter of poor quality source music or an amplifier circuit is being taxed too much.
Many of the New Country music is clean, well balanced and good dynamic range. Many Rock recordings from the early 70's and older, were digitally re-mastered and dumped on to CD formats, but do not have the clarity, dynamic range and overall definition we now enjoy from modern digital recording techniques. That's the main issues I have seen with older formats, converted to CD's.
Now, if your speakers are getting abnormally high distortion from the amps used, you can isolate which speaker/amp pairings are causing the issues noted. One of the best methods I have found, is to run your front stage at SPL levels where the problems seem to be most noticable. Then become a hopping bunny... or have a friend help out.
Open the doors and step behind the vehicle about 10-15 feet and listen for clarity. If you hear smeared or muddy mids and overly bright or shrill highs, the amps that power your front speakers are probably clipping badly. Adjust the amp gains that control these speakers, until all is normal and clean sounding again. Repeat the process with the rear speakers only. Same deal... Adjust as needed.
Also, avoid using excess EQ boost on the HU or separate EQ devices in the audio chain. The excessive boost can drive amps into clipping, well before the amps would normally clip. (A +3dB boost is not a problem for most amps to manage. However, larger boost numbers can easily clip an amp at high SPL levels.)
The last things to tweak, are balancing Front and Rear stages and bringing up the subs to a nice, well blended balance points. This can be done from inside the vehicle and verified from behind it as well. What we hear inside the cabin, can easily be masked by high SPL levels. It is only when we step outside and listen, the flaws become noticable.
This takes a good deal of patience and is best verified a few hours later as well. Our ears are limited in how much acoustical energy they can take, before the brain begins to step in and protect our ears. What may have sounded pretty good after 30 minutes of tweaking and adjustments at high SPL values, may sound very bad when we come back later and listen again, with fresh ears.
Swez COFFEE
PS Can you give more details on the speakers and amps used in this install and how they are presently configured? (Ie: Front and rear speaker model #'s, amp model #'s and any processors used as well.)
compvr15s on 02/20/2006 16:20:02
do you have you these speakers on a seperate amp, if so make sure the ground is properly connected(clean metal of chasis with paint sanded off) if you are using your head unit try running a new ground to a bare metal spot like a mentioned above... ummm does it do this at all volumes???? if only when extremely high check your settings, maybe your crossover is boosted a lil too high in the upper freq range.... also check to make sure polarity is correct, dont think this would cause that but make sure all pos connections are tight to corresponding wires and same with neg. wires...other than that i would check for a loose wire somewhere, you make have a wire grouding out, but not enough to completly ground out the sound, easy way to do this is pull out the unit so you can access the back speaker wires, pull out the factory wires run some new ones to the back speakers, for the time being just run them through the cabin, dont take all the time to pull the interior, then return to normal volumes if this dont fix it, we have eliminated the grounding problems....
one last thing, what source are using fro this music or does it happen on every cd??? if you get a low quality cut where maybe the volume was low when recorded, you have to increase the volume of your head unit to make up for the loss- you will get static from the speakers but this will be from all your speakers not just one set.....but if this does it on cd quality music, 92kb bitrate or whatever then we have to dig a lil deeper. but if you have like record or 8tracks dubbed onto a cd then id say this is probably normal, (know what i mean)
check out a couple of the basic things and see what it does... good luck
ralter649 on 02/21/2006 03:16:38
i have a pioneer 9600 deck, JLVR690-CXi Coaxials 6*9s (rear), VR650-CXi Coaxials 6.5s (front), CVS210G-W3v2 ( 2 10 in. JL subs in a sealed pro-wedge box), Eclipse 33230 running the Subs, and Coustic AMP- 625X for the mids and highs.....most of the music i play is mp3s ripped at 192 bps
ttocs on 02/21/2006 10:43:57
the mp3's could be your problem. Mp3's are not as clear as cd's or wave files. So when you take an old recording that did not sound great to begin with, and then degrade the quality further by transfering it to mp3, garbage in = garbage out........
pigwiggle on 02/21/2006 15:01:52
"Mp3's are not as clear as cd's or wave files."
It depends. I just did a rigorous side-by-side comparison of ~200kpbs VBR encoded MP3s and their CD tracks. Same tracks, same time positions, switched back and forth; absolutely no discernable difference. While no lossy compression is true CD-quality, a properly ripped and encoded file is 'CD-transparent', that is, indiscernible from the original CD recording.
The bit rate isn't a reliable measure of MP3 quality. First, use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) to rip the CD. EAC will perform a verbose read over damaged or misread portions of a CD, sometimes as slow as 0.1X, and correct any errors (already better than CD-quality). Then encode with the LAME program using the suggested presets, i.e. --alt-preset standard. Encoding is the critical part; a 192 kpbs MP3 file encoded with LAME is of significantly better quality than a 192 kbps MP3 file encoded with Windows Media Player. This combination was arrived at through an internet based double blind "taste test" of audiophiles the world over. It's really quite good.
Oh, and your equipment had better be capable of decoding the file. A lightweight head unit computer can make a properly encoded 300kbps MP3 sound worse than a properly encoded 128kbps MP3, and probably wont even play a lossless format.
swez on 02/21/2006 15:28:52
This is FAQ quality info. Care to go a bit more into detail on this subject, so we can install this content into CK's DIY link on the board.
What is LAME, VBR and details on EAC? Expand on this topic as I sure have an interest to learn more on same...
Thanks,
Swez
ttocs on 02/21/2006 15:34:03
if that is the case, when are then going to make all cd encoded with mp3's?
There is alot of snake oil in the audio industry, everything from the idea that all amps are the same to the idea that signal cables do not make a difference either. I believe maybe 50% of what is told to me by "audiophiles" since everyone knows that 30% of statistics are made up, including this one...............
pigwiggle on 02/21/2006 21:16:02
I don’t know why CD distributors would bother with compressed music. There is plenty of room on a CD for all the music plus extraneous crap; cover art, promotional tracks, music videos, computer eating DRM spyware (thanks Sony).
Snake oil intimates there is something for sale. Folks who, like you and me, want high quality sound provide these programs freely; they aren’t pushed by some tin-eared music exec. They aren’t trying to sell you a bill of goods. But, the proof is in the pudin’; try it yourself. I didn’t spend my free days and thousands of dollars just to listen to kazoo quality MP3s. When I say I can’t discern a difference, I mean it.
swez on 02/21/2006 21:39:30
Oddly enough, I understand enough about the Consumer Electronics Industry to know there are many hidden glitches and snake oils in the pudding. They call it "Corporate Secrets" or "Confidential Trade Secrets". Bunk!!!
The average user assumes that a higher bit rate means better copy integrity from the "Master Recording", to the a general consumption media buyer. However, to cut cost, maintain huge profit margins and bilk the consumer of their hard earned Dollar, Yen, Euro or Ruppe, who know's what we are actually getting for our monies?
Seems like it takes far more sophisticated test equipment to sort all this out, then the human ear can possibly detect. So much for high-tech chicanery. No wonder we loose faith in some technolgy advancements. There are few regulations and guidelines regarding Consumer Electronic devices.
There is a reason for same... let every vendor use it's own methodologies and marketing schemes to promote a given product(s) or devices. In the final analysis, who sells the most toys and makes the greatest profits for stock holders, are the name of the game.
End RANT!
Swez
PS "Let the buyer beware"! We may not be getting what we "think" we paid for.
swez on 02/21/2006 22:01:58
BTW, if you use quality CD's or DVD audio sources and the problem still exists, it may have more to do with the HU decoding circuits then the rest of the system.
Coustic made some great products in the past. Now, they are under the Corporate umbrella of MTX. JL is... well JL...some of the best gear money can buy, at user friendly prices. The rest is how we use the gear and what the limits are.
Swez
(thanks for all the help over the years)
Replies (10)
swez on 02/20/2006 16:09:11
This could just be a matter of poor quality source music or an amplifier circuit is being taxed too much.
Many of the New Country music is clean, well balanced and good dynamic range. Many Rock recordings from the early 70's and older, were digitally re-mastered and dumped on to CD formats, but do not have the clarity, dynamic range and overall definition we now enjoy from modern digital recording techniques. That's the main issues I have seen with older formats, converted to CD's.
Now, if your speakers are getting abnormally high distortion from the amps used, you can isolate which speaker/amp pairings are causing the issues noted. One of the best methods I have found, is to run your front stage at SPL levels where the problems seem to be most noticable. Then become a hopping bunny... or have a friend help out.
Open the doors and step behind the vehicle about 10-15 feet and listen for clarity. If you hear smeared or muddy mids and overly bright or shrill highs, the amps that power your front speakers are probably clipping badly. Adjust the amp gains that control these speakers, until all is normal and clean sounding again. Repeat the process with the rear speakers only. Same deal... Adjust as needed.
Also, avoid using excess EQ boost on the HU or separate EQ devices in the audio chain. The excessive boost can drive amps into clipping, well before the amps would normally clip. (A +3dB boost is not a problem for most amps to manage. However, larger boost numbers can easily clip an amp at high SPL levels.)
The last things to tweak, are balancing Front and Rear stages and bringing up the subs to a nice, well blended balance points. This can be done from inside the vehicle and verified from behind it as well. What we hear inside the cabin, can easily be masked by high SPL levels. It is only when we step outside and listen, the flaws become noticable.
This takes a good deal of patience and is best verified a few hours later as well. Our ears are limited in how much acoustical energy they can take, before the brain begins to step in and protect our ears. What may have sounded pretty good after 30 minutes of tweaking and adjustments at high SPL values, may sound very bad when we come back later and listen again, with fresh ears.
Swez COFFEE
PS Can you give more details on the speakers and amps used in this install and how they are presently configured? (Ie: Front and rear speaker model #'s, amp model #'s and any processors used as well.)
compvr15s on 02/20/2006 16:20:02
do you have you these speakers on a seperate amp, if so make sure the ground is properly connected(clean metal of chasis with paint sanded off) if you are using your head unit try running a new ground to a bare metal spot like a mentioned above... ummm does it do this at all volumes???? if only when extremely high check your settings, maybe your crossover is boosted a lil too high in the upper freq range.... also check to make sure polarity is correct, dont think this would cause that but make sure all pos connections are tight to corresponding wires and same with neg. wires...other than that i would check for a loose wire somewhere, you make have a wire grouding out, but not enough to completly ground out the sound, easy way to do this is pull out the unit so you can access the back speaker wires, pull out the factory wires run some new ones to the back speakers, for the time being just run them through the cabin, dont take all the time to pull the interior, then return to normal volumes if this dont fix it, we have eliminated the grounding problems....
one last thing, what source are using fro this music or does it happen on every cd??? if you get a low quality cut where maybe the volume was low when recorded, you have to increase the volume of your head unit to make up for the loss- you will get static from the speakers but this will be from all your speakers not just one set.....but if this does it on cd quality music, 92kb bitrate or whatever then we have to dig a lil deeper. but if you have like record or 8tracks dubbed onto a cd then id say this is probably normal, (know what i mean)
check out a couple of the basic things and see what it does... good luck
ralter649 on 02/21/2006 03:16:38
i have a pioneer 9600 deck, JLVR690-CXi Coaxials 6*9s (rear), VR650-CXi Coaxials 6.5s (front), CVS210G-W3v2 ( 2 10 in. JL subs in a sealed pro-wedge box), Eclipse 33230 running the Subs, and Coustic AMP- 625X for the mids and highs.....most of the music i play is mp3s ripped at 192 bps
ttocs on 02/21/2006 10:43:57
the mp3's could be your problem. Mp3's are not as clear as cd's or wave files. So when you take an old recording that did not sound great to begin with, and then degrade the quality further by transfering it to mp3, garbage in = garbage out........
pigwiggle on 02/21/2006 15:01:52
"Mp3's are not as clear as cd's or wave files."
It depends. I just did a rigorous side-by-side comparison of ~200kpbs VBR encoded MP3s and their CD tracks. Same tracks, same time positions, switched back and forth; absolutely no discernable difference. While no lossy compression is true CD-quality, a properly ripped and encoded file is 'CD-transparent', that is, indiscernible from the original CD recording.
The bit rate isn't a reliable measure of MP3 quality. First, use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) to rip the CD. EAC will perform a verbose read over damaged or misread portions of a CD, sometimes as slow as 0.1X, and correct any errors (already better than CD-quality). Then encode with the LAME program using the suggested presets, i.e. --alt-preset standard. Encoding is the critical part; a 192 kpbs MP3 file encoded with LAME is of significantly better quality than a 192 kbps MP3 file encoded with Windows Media Player. This combination was arrived at through an internet based double blind "taste test" of audiophiles the world over. It's really quite good.
Oh, and your equipment had better be capable of decoding the file. A lightweight head unit computer can make a properly encoded 300kbps MP3 sound worse than a properly encoded 128kbps MP3, and probably wont even play a lossless format.
swez on 02/21/2006 15:28:52
This is FAQ quality info. Care to go a bit more into detail on this subject, so we can install this content into CK's DIY link on the board.
What is LAME, VBR and details on EAC? Expand on this topic as I sure have an interest to learn more on same...
Thanks,
Swez
ttocs on 02/21/2006 15:34:03
if that is the case, when are then going to make all cd encoded with mp3's?
There is alot of snake oil in the audio industry, everything from the idea that all amps are the same to the idea that signal cables do not make a difference either. I believe maybe 50% of what is told to me by "audiophiles" since everyone knows that 30% of statistics are made up, including this one...............
pigwiggle on 02/21/2006 21:16:02
I don’t know why CD distributors would bother with compressed music. There is plenty of room on a CD for all the music plus extraneous crap; cover art, promotional tracks, music videos, computer eating DRM spyware (thanks Sony).
Snake oil intimates there is something for sale. Folks who, like you and me, want high quality sound provide these programs freely; they aren’t pushed by some tin-eared music exec. They aren’t trying to sell you a bill of goods. But, the proof is in the pudin’; try it yourself. I didn’t spend my free days and thousands of dollars just to listen to kazoo quality MP3s. When I say I can’t discern a difference, I mean it.
swez on 02/21/2006 21:39:30
Oddly enough, I understand enough about the Consumer Electronics Industry to know there are many hidden glitches and snake oils in the pudding. They call it "Corporate Secrets" or "Confidential Trade Secrets". Bunk!!!
The average user assumes that a higher bit rate means better copy integrity from the "Master Recording", to the a general consumption media buyer. However, to cut cost, maintain huge profit margins and bilk the consumer of their hard earned Dollar, Yen, Euro or Ruppe, who know's what we are actually getting for our monies?
Seems like it takes far more sophisticated test equipment to sort all this out, then the human ear can possibly detect. So much for high-tech chicanery. No wonder we loose faith in some technolgy advancements. There are few regulations and guidelines regarding Consumer Electronic devices.
There is a reason for same... let every vendor use it's own methodologies and marketing schemes to promote a given product(s) or devices. In the final analysis, who sells the most toys and makes the greatest profits for stock holders, are the name of the game.
End RANT!
Swez
PS "Let the buyer beware"! We may not be getting what we "think" we paid for.
swez on 02/21/2006 22:01:58
BTW, if you use quality CD's or DVD audio sources and the problem still exists, it may have more to do with the HU decoding circuits then the rest of the system.
Coustic made some great products in the past. Now, they are under the Corporate umbrella of MTX. JL is... well JL...some of the best gear money can buy, at user friendly prices. The rest is how we use the gear and what the limits are.
Swez
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