Looking for some help here. I had no previous problems with this amp in the past. The amp is a Lanzer 2200(one of the better old schooler amps). I had it hooked up 3 months ago to 2 12" Lanzars. Needed some space in my itty bitty HB so i removed the box and left the amp connected but pulled the fuse at the battery. So yesterday i finished making a new box for just one of the 12's and seemed to be just fine till I noticed that after i turned off the car the amp would initially turn off and then turn back on but not at full power. I could tell not full power cause the green light on the amp was dim. And to top it off it started to release a little bit of smoke too.......FROWN
So what's the problem here. I did not change anything in the wiring from last time. So this is why im really curious....Another little note. I pulled the remote wire off and reconnected the fuse to the amp and after about 25 seconds the light will come on..
Replies (18)
ttocs on 07/28/2003 14:32:16
it is not uncommon for amps, specifically large ones, to have the pwr light stay on for a while after the car is off. There are alot of caps in there that store enough voltage to keep a led on for a while.
To properly test however, start with a volt meter or test light and see what is on the remote turn on. It should be off with the deck of course and if you find anything else, check the deck. If this is the case you can always use the ignition input to switch the amp on and off. If you find 0v with the deck off, then you might have a prob with the amp. Check all connections, and check the impedence of the speakers.
Let us know what you find.
PEP on 07/28/2003 14:50:30
well in response to ttocs. i already tested the remote wire and it is working properly. Amp comes on in ignition and off when ignition is off. Buttttt, once it turns off the amp is coming back on in a couple of seconds but in the dimmer status.(enough that it caused the amp to smoke a little when i first noticed it) What is really weird is that even when the remote wire is not connected to the amp it will still do it. I will disconect the the fuse and the remote wire. Then i will reconnect the fuse ONLY and after a couple of seconds the light will appear dim. So my ?? is do you think its only stored energy in there and maybe the burning of some dust or something?
ttocs on 07/28/2003 19:38:04
I think it is stored energy, but I do not know about the smoke. Smoke is (almost) never a good thing. Check the circuits that go to the light. Maybe a diode shorted and is allowing voltage to backfeed from the pwr supply? Does it go out after a while? Is your batter voltage being effected?
PEP on 07/29/2003 12:47:40
Well im not sure if it goes out after a while cause i was not willing to let it stay on after i saw the smoke coming from it the first time. When i see it come on i just pull the fuse to make sure it shuts itself off. And as far as battery voltage, I did not check that. When and where do you suggest i check that. What i was thinking was to just run the amp for about a good 10 minutes and maybe get some of the dust out of it. Whats the worst that can happen, i blow the amp. Cause at this point it seems that it is probably something internal and quite frankly i have no clue to the internals of the amp.
ttocs on 07/29/2003 16:22:08
you could test the battery pwr at the battery, or at the amp connections. Worst that could happen is it could start to smoke, then catch fire, then catch your car on fire, then your garage, the whole house, your neighbors house and their cars...........
What are the chances that would happen though?
PEP on 07/29/2003 18:08:43
LOL. Good Point. I guess I should continue to troubleshoot the problem.....:) Well, I will keep you posted on what happens. Unless I happen to start myself on fire and end up in the hospital with 3rd degree burns to my dummmmmb ass. Thanks for the help.
Swez on 07/29/2003 18:10:30
Too funny ttocs... wry sense of humor hehe
I would not suggest you power up this amp until you have either had a shop tech look at it or at least pull off the covers and have a peek inside.
As ttocs mentioned, smoke is usually not a good sign!!! The LED may stay on for many seconds after the amp if shut down as power caps discharge. That is not abnormal. But smoke... that means trouble.
Could have a bad power supply, old leaky Caps, problems in board level components or a few bad output ransistors. It could be serious or as minor as a few loose solder joint connections. But you'll have to pull off the covers to find out more.
Not hard to do this and look for charred, damaged board traces, dark liquids around larger Caps or transformer coils in the power supply area. This section is easy to identify as this is where all the heavy duty CAPS, Coils and wires are located.
If nothing obvious, try powering it up to see what components are smoking... but have a quick hand on the fuse ready as you do same.
Let us know what you find out OK?
Swez
PS Old amps can have cap problems as they age. An electrolytic Cap (large polorized cans) will leak over time and change value too. This has a cascading effect on the rest of the amp and power supply system. Usually takes out a few components down when they get too old.
PEP on 07/30/2003 15:09:50
Thanks Swez, I have a feeling this is exactly whats going on. I have had the amp for at least 7 years(maybe in service for 4 of them). If I pop it open and see some damage, how much do you think that could cost. Are repairs even worth it?? I did pay about 400 bucks for that guy back in the days.....
One more question. Do you think its possible that maybe there is some type of exposed power wire that could possibly be causing the problem?? After all, when the fuse is pulled the amp shuts down completely...
Swez on 07/30/2003 18:51:14
Hard to say what you have here until you pull the covers off and have a close inspection of the PCB and other power components.
Yes, it is possible to have burned the insulation off a wire. If you've smelled that smell before, you'd know that one as it smells like bruning plastic/rubber coatings.
Caps have a sweet smell when they toast out and if a transistor... not really much smoke or distinct odor... just a fried junction and the device is dead short or open.
In short, look at it this way... had it what 7 years? That's about $57.00 a year or $4.76/mo., since you made that investment. If it can be repaired and restored to full operating conditions for under 30% of the cost of a new amp, I'd consider having it repaired. If you get a read that it will cost too much more... then it's a coin flip... assuming you really liked the amp.
The other side of the coin.... old technology here... problably a 2 channel, Class A/B amp. These suck a lot of power for the output they deliver. (~50-55% eff.)
Today, newer sub amps are Class D Mono amps and many can do 1 or 2 ohm loads and remain stable. They are also 80-90% efficient. So.... the inputs watts it consumes, will be well utilized for output.
Think about it a moment... The JBL 600.1 can deliver +600 RMS to 1 or 2 ohm loads. A Class D amp, and can be had for under $215.00. This one draws 57 amps at full power. It's big brother... 1200.1 is double the power and amps drawn, but under $300.00 on many web sites or E-bay.
Sure... there are other amps out there that are cheaper or have more features and cost a tad bit more.... but if you can fix what you have for under $75.00.... not a bad return for your time and efforts.
Good luck,
Swez
ttocs on 07/31/2003 10:07:58
An amp that old should not be too tought to diagnose. I would take it apart and see, but then I will take anything apart.... If there was smoke you will probably see something fairly quickly.
Transistors can have a heck of a punch when they blow. I had a circuit built in class one day that I pwred up to take some readings on.. I had the transistor icorectly biased and it made a very loud "pop". I watched on piecr of it travel 7-8ft down the lab table to hit the guy at the station next to me.... It was funny.......
So swez, do you prefer the smell of the cap, or the insulation more.?
Swez on 07/31/2003 13:07:07
Cap is a sweet smell as the inner layers of dielectric and electrolyte begin to fry. Burning wires are foul smelling as the insulation cooks.
So... give me a plate of toasted Caps ok? A little hot sauce, a side of guacamole and some fresh toco chips will do just fine.
Oh.... need something to wash it down with too. I would think... Make mine Nego Modelo with a lime... maybe 2.
What's you preference ttocs? GRIN
Swez
PEP on 07/31/2003 17:32:57
Ok guys, all guacamole and chips aside. I have found the problem. I popped that bad boy open and found two little diodes burned and also another piece that appears to be somewhat of a little white tower(not sure what that is called). So off to the electronic shop it shall go. Do you think its age that did this to them?? The funny thing is that i've ran all sorts of different speakers and configurations off this amp and never had any problems. This time all i had was one 12" DVC Lanzar. I bridged the amp and ran the speaker in a parallel wiring scheme. Can you suggest any other possible schemes I can use to get it to sound good. From what i know this is as good as it can get. (ps. it is a 4 ohm DVC) Did i run it at too low of a ohm for the amp??
Swez on 07/31/2003 17:46:46
Good job Pep.... sounds like a pair of fried diodes and maybe a Cap as well. Too much current will blow the diodes (acts like a gate to allow current flow in only 1 direction) The Cap is usually right after these to filter out any AC ripple and buffer the power supply.
Most two channel amps can manage 2-4 ohm loads in 2 channel mode. If bridged, need a 4 ohm load here. If you run below 4 ohms, amp failure is likely or it goes into protection mode if it has those circuits.
So, when you bridged the amp into MONO mode, then parallel wire a DVC sub to same, had a 2 ohm load and the amp said.... nope, cannot take that for long.
You may be able to fix this one yourself by pulling the charred diodes out and replacing them with same ratings or a larger and cap as well. If you can read the cap value, see the polarity and use a higher voltage rating, but same uF rating, might be good to go for under $20.00.
Diodes have a polarity to them and you might see a black band on one side of each diode. This is your orientation band. The new diodes go back in the same way the old ones came out (band wise) You may use a higher amp rated diode as replacements too. The board usually has pictures ond letters to tell which component goes where and orientation.
Make a diagram of how things come out and return new componets as same as old came out. Just need needlenose pliers, soldering gun/pencil, some thin diameter (prefluxed) 60/40 solder, a small roll of solder wicking braid wire and a good light to see what you are doing.
Are you up for that kind of surgery? Not hard to do it if you have enough watts in the soldering gun/pencil. (40-60 watts is usually enough) Just make that heat on the board hot, but in short duration to prevent damage to PCB traces underside of the board. Once the solder begins to melt, get the components out quick.
Once the componets are out, set the solder wick on the site, heat until solder is pulled from boad and onto wicking braid. Should have nice clean holes now, to reinstall new components and resolder.
What do you think here Doctor Pep... will the patient live?
Swez
PS Don't mind the silly comments.... just a way for male bonding as ttocks an I go back a long time together on the help boards. He's a great guy and a real joker too... so, we exchange wise cracks at times. No disrespect intended.. just good clean fun. Sorry...
PEP on 07/31/2003 19:09:45
First off, none taken. I can see you guys obviously have some history.... Its all good. Well, Dr. Pep?? I would say yes to the diode part of it but i dont think the other item is a cap. Its not circular. Its more like a "world trade center" type deal. And it doesnt look as if though its soldered in there. Seems to be planted on the board. Any other suggestions on what that may be?? I may try it though cause it almost appears as if this unknown item may just have a runnoff type of burn on it from the diode. Also, as far as the amp going to low, it has taken much more abuse than that in the past and performed great. And when it got tired it does have the protection mode that would shut er down. The funny thing is that i only ran it for like 1 minute, then left for a couple hours, came back to pull it into the garage and then i smelt the smoke!! Damm electronics.........
PEP on 07/31/2003 19:27:11
One more thing. If i were to run the speaker in series that will give me a measly 8 ohms. Is there any other ways to wire this puppy that i may not be aware of??
Swez on 07/31/2003 21:36:09
First off, that Componet you mentioned (Trade Towers) not mounted into the board... hard to say what that could be without seeing it or have a schematic symbol of what that gizzmo is. If it looks bad, remove it and see if you figure out what it is via Radio Shack or a good ET having a look at same.
Wiring the DVC as is, you may get by is the amp can manage the low ohmic load in bridged mode. yes, you might get by for a time, but amps do fail over time when they run in ways not designed for. In this case, one more stick on the camel's back was too much?
Best you can do... wire to bridged amp in series for an 8 ohm load. You'll lose ~3dB of power... bit it is safe! You can also run the amp in 2 channel mode and 1 VC to each channel.... I don't like that option as it is so hard to match amp output to each VC this way.
The other option, fix the amp and get a 4 ohm sub if you bridge this amp again.
These are the safest ways to run this amp.
Swez
deepseajt on 07/31/2003 21:52:08
The component in question may be a coil -choke? Aren't there some of these that are adjustable as well or would that just be a transformer? How many legs does it have? 4 would suggest a transformer - 2 a coil. Just thought I might chime it>>> : )
PEP on 08/1/2003 13:38:47
Well fellas, I took the amp to a friend of a friend who does electronic repairs and he's checking it out. Upon looking at it he said that it must have got pretty hot cause it melted it pretty well. He said it wasnt looking too good. He also said that the diodes that were burnt are very rare to burn. He wasnt sure how it skipped some of the others and made it to the ones in questions. Like i said before. Damm electronics..........So we shall see this afternoon what comes of it. So my next question is what is an affordable and dependable amp that can take a 1 ohm load?? It looks like i may have to lay my pal to rest :(
So what's the problem here. I did not change anything in the wiring from last time. So this is why im really curious....Another little note. I pulled the remote wire off and reconnected the fuse to the amp and after about 25 seconds the light will come on..
Replies (18)
ttocs on 07/28/2003 14:32:16
it is not uncommon for amps, specifically large ones, to have the pwr light stay on for a while after the car is off. There are alot of caps in there that store enough voltage to keep a led on for a while.
To properly test however, start with a volt meter or test light and see what is on the remote turn on. It should be off with the deck of course and if you find anything else, check the deck. If this is the case you can always use the ignition input to switch the amp on and off. If you find 0v with the deck off, then you might have a prob with the amp. Check all connections, and check the impedence of the speakers.
Let us know what you find.
PEP on 07/28/2003 14:50:30
well in response to ttocs. i already tested the remote wire and it is working properly. Amp comes on in ignition and off when ignition is off. Buttttt, once it turns off the amp is coming back on in a couple of seconds but in the dimmer status.(enough that it caused the amp to smoke a little when i first noticed it) What is really weird is that even when the remote wire is not connected to the amp it will still do it. I will disconect the the fuse and the remote wire. Then i will reconnect the fuse ONLY and after a couple of seconds the light will appear dim. So my ?? is do you think its only stored energy in there and maybe the burning of some dust or something?
ttocs on 07/28/2003 19:38:04
I think it is stored energy, but I do not know about the smoke. Smoke is (almost) never a good thing. Check the circuits that go to the light. Maybe a diode shorted and is allowing voltage to backfeed from the pwr supply? Does it go out after a while? Is your batter voltage being effected?
PEP on 07/29/2003 12:47:40
Well im not sure if it goes out after a while cause i was not willing to let it stay on after i saw the smoke coming from it the first time. When i see it come on i just pull the fuse to make sure it shuts itself off. And as far as battery voltage, I did not check that. When and where do you suggest i check that. What i was thinking was to just run the amp for about a good 10 minutes and maybe get some of the dust out of it. Whats the worst that can happen, i blow the amp. Cause at this point it seems that it is probably something internal and quite frankly i have no clue to the internals of the amp.
ttocs on 07/29/2003 16:22:08
you could test the battery pwr at the battery, or at the amp connections. Worst that could happen is it could start to smoke, then catch fire, then catch your car on fire, then your garage, the whole house, your neighbors house and their cars...........
What are the chances that would happen though?
PEP on 07/29/2003 18:08:43
LOL. Good Point. I guess I should continue to troubleshoot the problem.....:) Well, I will keep you posted on what happens. Unless I happen to start myself on fire and end up in the hospital with 3rd degree burns to my dummmmmb ass. Thanks for the help.
Swez on 07/29/2003 18:10:30
Too funny ttocs... wry sense of humor hehe
I would not suggest you power up this amp until you have either had a shop tech look at it or at least pull off the covers and have a peek inside.
As ttocs mentioned, smoke is usually not a good sign!!! The LED may stay on for many seconds after the amp if shut down as power caps discharge. That is not abnormal. But smoke... that means trouble.
Could have a bad power supply, old leaky Caps, problems in board level components or a few bad output ransistors. It could be serious or as minor as a few loose solder joint connections. But you'll have to pull off the covers to find out more.
Not hard to do this and look for charred, damaged board traces, dark liquids around larger Caps or transformer coils in the power supply area. This section is easy to identify as this is where all the heavy duty CAPS, Coils and wires are located.
If nothing obvious, try powering it up to see what components are smoking... but have a quick hand on the fuse ready as you do same.
Let us know what you find out OK?
Swez
PS Old amps can have cap problems as they age. An electrolytic Cap (large polorized cans) will leak over time and change value too. This has a cascading effect on the rest of the amp and power supply system. Usually takes out a few components down when they get too old.
PEP on 07/30/2003 15:09:50
Thanks Swez, I have a feeling this is exactly whats going on. I have had the amp for at least 7 years(maybe in service for 4 of them). If I pop it open and see some damage, how much do you think that could cost. Are repairs even worth it?? I did pay about 400 bucks for that guy back in the days.....
One more question. Do you think its possible that maybe there is some type of exposed power wire that could possibly be causing the problem?? After all, when the fuse is pulled the amp shuts down completely...
Swez on 07/30/2003 18:51:14
Hard to say what you have here until you pull the covers off and have a close inspection of the PCB and other power components.
Yes, it is possible to have burned the insulation off a wire. If you've smelled that smell before, you'd know that one as it smells like bruning plastic/rubber coatings.
Caps have a sweet smell when they toast out and if a transistor... not really much smoke or distinct odor... just a fried junction and the device is dead short or open.
In short, look at it this way... had it what 7 years? That's about $57.00 a year or $4.76/mo., since you made that investment. If it can be repaired and restored to full operating conditions for under 30% of the cost of a new amp, I'd consider having it repaired. If you get a read that it will cost too much more... then it's a coin flip... assuming you really liked the amp.
The other side of the coin.... old technology here... problably a 2 channel, Class A/B amp. These suck a lot of power for the output they deliver. (~50-55% eff.)
Today, newer sub amps are Class D Mono amps and many can do 1 or 2 ohm loads and remain stable. They are also 80-90% efficient. So.... the inputs watts it consumes, will be well utilized for output.
Think about it a moment... The JBL 600.1 can deliver +600 RMS to 1 or 2 ohm loads. A Class D amp, and can be had for under $215.00. This one draws 57 amps at full power. It's big brother... 1200.1 is double the power and amps drawn, but under $300.00 on many web sites or E-bay.
Sure... there are other amps out there that are cheaper or have more features and cost a tad bit more.... but if you can fix what you have for under $75.00.... not a bad return for your time and efforts.
Good luck,
Swez
ttocs on 07/31/2003 10:07:58
An amp that old should not be too tought to diagnose. I would take it apart and see, but then I will take anything apart.... If there was smoke you will probably see something fairly quickly.
Transistors can have a heck of a punch when they blow. I had a circuit built in class one day that I pwred up to take some readings on.. I had the transistor icorectly biased and it made a very loud "pop". I watched on piecr of it travel 7-8ft down the lab table to hit the guy at the station next to me.... It was funny.......
So swez, do you prefer the smell of the cap, or the insulation more.?
Swez on 07/31/2003 13:07:07
Cap is a sweet smell as the inner layers of dielectric and electrolyte begin to fry. Burning wires are foul smelling as the insulation cooks.
So... give me a plate of toasted Caps ok? A little hot sauce, a side of guacamole and some fresh toco chips will do just fine.
Oh.... need something to wash it down with too. I would think... Make mine Nego Modelo with a lime... maybe 2.
What's you preference ttocs? GRIN
Swez
PEP on 07/31/2003 17:32:57
Ok guys, all guacamole and chips aside. I have found the problem. I popped that bad boy open and found two little diodes burned and also another piece that appears to be somewhat of a little white tower(not sure what that is called). So off to the electronic shop it shall go. Do you think its age that did this to them?? The funny thing is that i've ran all sorts of different speakers and configurations off this amp and never had any problems. This time all i had was one 12" DVC Lanzar. I bridged the amp and ran the speaker in a parallel wiring scheme. Can you suggest any other possible schemes I can use to get it to sound good. From what i know this is as good as it can get. (ps. it is a 4 ohm DVC) Did i run it at too low of a ohm for the amp??
Swez on 07/31/2003 17:46:46
Good job Pep.... sounds like a pair of fried diodes and maybe a Cap as well. Too much current will blow the diodes (acts like a gate to allow current flow in only 1 direction) The Cap is usually right after these to filter out any AC ripple and buffer the power supply.
Most two channel amps can manage 2-4 ohm loads in 2 channel mode. If bridged, need a 4 ohm load here. If you run below 4 ohms, amp failure is likely or it goes into protection mode if it has those circuits.
So, when you bridged the amp into MONO mode, then parallel wire a DVC sub to same, had a 2 ohm load and the amp said.... nope, cannot take that for long.
You may be able to fix this one yourself by pulling the charred diodes out and replacing them with same ratings or a larger and cap as well. If you can read the cap value, see the polarity and use a higher voltage rating, but same uF rating, might be good to go for under $20.00.
Diodes have a polarity to them and you might see a black band on one side of each diode. This is your orientation band. The new diodes go back in the same way the old ones came out (band wise) You may use a higher amp rated diode as replacements too. The board usually has pictures ond letters to tell which component goes where and orientation.
Make a diagram of how things come out and return new componets as same as old came out. Just need needlenose pliers, soldering gun/pencil, some thin diameter (prefluxed) 60/40 solder, a small roll of solder wicking braid wire and a good light to see what you are doing.
Are you up for that kind of surgery? Not hard to do it if you have enough watts in the soldering gun/pencil. (40-60 watts is usually enough) Just make that heat on the board hot, but in short duration to prevent damage to PCB traces underside of the board. Once the solder begins to melt, get the components out quick.
Once the componets are out, set the solder wick on the site, heat until solder is pulled from boad and onto wicking braid. Should have nice clean holes now, to reinstall new components and resolder.
What do you think here Doctor Pep... will the patient live?
Swez
PS Don't mind the silly comments.... just a way for male bonding as ttocks an I go back a long time together on the help boards. He's a great guy and a real joker too... so, we exchange wise cracks at times. No disrespect intended.. just good clean fun. Sorry...
PEP on 07/31/2003 19:09:45
First off, none taken. I can see you guys obviously have some history.... Its all good. Well, Dr. Pep?? I would say yes to the diode part of it but i dont think the other item is a cap. Its not circular. Its more like a "world trade center" type deal. And it doesnt look as if though its soldered in there. Seems to be planted on the board. Any other suggestions on what that may be?? I may try it though cause it almost appears as if this unknown item may just have a runnoff type of burn on it from the diode. Also, as far as the amp going to low, it has taken much more abuse than that in the past and performed great. And when it got tired it does have the protection mode that would shut er down. The funny thing is that i only ran it for like 1 minute, then left for a couple hours, came back to pull it into the garage and then i smelt the smoke!! Damm electronics.........
PEP on 07/31/2003 19:27:11
One more thing. If i were to run the speaker in series that will give me a measly 8 ohms. Is there any other ways to wire this puppy that i may not be aware of??
Swez on 07/31/2003 21:36:09
First off, that Componet you mentioned (Trade Towers) not mounted into the board... hard to say what that could be without seeing it or have a schematic symbol of what that gizzmo is. If it looks bad, remove it and see if you figure out what it is via Radio Shack or a good ET having a look at same.
Wiring the DVC as is, you may get by is the amp can manage the low ohmic load in bridged mode. yes, you might get by for a time, but amps do fail over time when they run in ways not designed for. In this case, one more stick on the camel's back was too much?
Best you can do... wire to bridged amp in series for an 8 ohm load. You'll lose ~3dB of power... bit it is safe! You can also run the amp in 2 channel mode and 1 VC to each channel.... I don't like that option as it is so hard to match amp output to each VC this way.
The other option, fix the amp and get a 4 ohm sub if you bridge this amp again.
These are the safest ways to run this amp.
Swez
deepseajt on 07/31/2003 21:52:08
The component in question may be a coil -choke? Aren't there some of these that are adjustable as well or would that just be a transformer? How many legs does it have? 4 would suggest a transformer - 2 a coil. Just thought I might chime it>>> : )
PEP on 08/1/2003 13:38:47
Well fellas, I took the amp to a friend of a friend who does electronic repairs and he's checking it out. Upon looking at it he said that it must have got pretty hot cause it melted it pretty well. He said it wasnt looking too good. He also said that the diodes that were burnt are very rare to burn. He wasnt sure how it skipped some of the others and made it to the ones in questions. Like i said before. Damm electronics..........So we shall see this afternoon what comes of it. So my next question is what is an affordable and dependable amp that can take a 1 ohm load?? It looks like i may have to lay my pal to rest :(
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