You know how in music you have the punch of a kick drum and then the softer strum of say a keyboard or bass guitar. Do the two different types conflict in a sub when they are played at the same time? I've always wondered.
Kia ora. JMB
Replies (9)
swez on 12/3/2005 06:02:04
This is a easy question to ask, but a complex one to answer. Let's put on our thinking caps and see what comes out...
To some degree, there is a conflict. But, we cannot always detect it with human hearing. As we listen to a full range source of audio, we can easily detect the differences between a flute, a piano, a guitar, a tenor sax, snare drum and cymbals right?
Are there conflicts or cancellations going on as we listen? Yes, but we cannot detect them. What we actually hear, are composites of all these instruments, in a given slice of time. They are all blended together in such a way, to form what we call... music!
Now, in the same manner, we have the same events going on in low frequencies like a tom tom, kick drum, bass guitar, tuba, lower octaves of a piano or synth. A bit harder to pick out in the sub woofer range of say 30 -100 Hz though. We can hear them all individually. But, as a grouping, they are more difficult to isolate each instrument.
Ever listen to the output of just the subs and filter out all the mids and highs? What do we actually hear? A bunch of low frequency noise right? There is a beat to it. But, we really have a difficult time picking out what is really going on here, as we have removed (filtered out or cancelled) the harmonic undertones (timbre) of any given instrument.
These complex harmonic undertones, are what help us to detect each given instruments timbre and say... that's low "A" on a bass guitar, the thud of a kick drum or the low pedal tones of a pipe organ.
In short, with the complex harmonics (timbre) removed, it sounds like a bunch of low frequency noise to the human ear.
Does that help or add more confusion to the matter?
Swez
JMB on 12/3/2005 14:42:00
Let me think of an example, take for instance a trance or house track that starts out with a hard hitting kick drum style beat booom....boom...boom....boom.... then next comes a bass line on the synthesizer and the Boom...boom... of the kick drum loses some of its punchiness.
Is this because the speaker has trouble reproducing both the hit and bass line together or is it because now both sounds have combined to create a different one?
What do you recon?
regards JMB
swez on 12/4/2005 12:20:02
Most of this is due to mixing and compression at the recording console. All those signals are in the mix, but the one you hear most, are the loudest one. (the dominant tones will "mask" the lesser ones)
They (synth bass and kick drum) are both present and the speaker can reproduce them well enough. But if there are frequencies that overlap and are out of phase with each other, these crossing point will cancel each other out.
If we slice both tracks in short segments of time, the crossing points are so short in duration, (micro-seconds) the cancellation effects are generally not audable.
Again, the reason the synth bass will dominate, (over the kick drum) is due to how the mix was assembled. The kick drum is still present, but because the synth signal is notably stronger, you hear that more than the kick drum. The kick is still there. But, it has been masked by a larger signal from the synth bass.
FYI: I was a bass player and often noted that the kick drum, toms and bass notes would often happen at the same time. We are the time keepers section of the band. I eventually learned to use simple tones when the drummer was playing his "riffs" as bass "riffs" would be totally masked by the drum kit activity.
Same effect... the drum kit was dominate. The bass lines got buried. So, why compete? I simply learned to meter the drummer's activities to compliment and punctuate the beat.
That's the best I can explain what you are noting,
Swez
JMB on 12/5/2005 01:09:34
Yeah that make sence to me Swez, Cheers mate.
BgDustin4 on 12/5/2005 20:35:25
lol confusing
MrBrownstone on 12/6/2005 21:32:21
You think that's confusing, you should hear Swez explain how, why and what he was doing helping that sheep over the fence.
That, is a twisted tale in itself.
JMB on 12/6/2005 22:55:56
Plenty of sheep over here in New Zealand Swez, 13 sheep per person i think.
Victor on 12/7/2005 02:40:21
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Harvester on 12/11/2005 22:34:37
TMI.....
Kia ora. JMB
Replies (9)
swez on 12/3/2005 06:02:04
This is a easy question to ask, but a complex one to answer. Let's put on our thinking caps and see what comes out...
To some degree, there is a conflict. But, we cannot always detect it with human hearing. As we listen to a full range source of audio, we can easily detect the differences between a flute, a piano, a guitar, a tenor sax, snare drum and cymbals right?
Are there conflicts or cancellations going on as we listen? Yes, but we cannot detect them. What we actually hear, are composites of all these instruments, in a given slice of time. They are all blended together in such a way, to form what we call... music!
Now, in the same manner, we have the same events going on in low frequencies like a tom tom, kick drum, bass guitar, tuba, lower octaves of a piano or synth. A bit harder to pick out in the sub woofer range of say 30 -100 Hz though. We can hear them all individually. But, as a grouping, they are more difficult to isolate each instrument.
Ever listen to the output of just the subs and filter out all the mids and highs? What do we actually hear? A bunch of low frequency noise right? There is a beat to it. But, we really have a difficult time picking out what is really going on here, as we have removed (filtered out or cancelled) the harmonic undertones (timbre) of any given instrument.
These complex harmonic undertones, are what help us to detect each given instruments timbre and say... that's low "A" on a bass guitar, the thud of a kick drum or the low pedal tones of a pipe organ.
In short, with the complex harmonics (timbre) removed, it sounds like a bunch of low frequency noise to the human ear.
Does that help or add more confusion to the matter?
Swez
JMB on 12/3/2005 14:42:00
Let me think of an example, take for instance a trance or house track that starts out with a hard hitting kick drum style beat booom....boom...boom....boom.... then next comes a bass line on the synthesizer and the Boom...boom... of the kick drum loses some of its punchiness.
Is this because the speaker has trouble reproducing both the hit and bass line together or is it because now both sounds have combined to create a different one?
What do you recon?
regards JMB
swez on 12/4/2005 12:20:02
Most of this is due to mixing and compression at the recording console. All those signals are in the mix, but the one you hear most, are the loudest one. (the dominant tones will "mask" the lesser ones)
They (synth bass and kick drum) are both present and the speaker can reproduce them well enough. But if there are frequencies that overlap and are out of phase with each other, these crossing point will cancel each other out.
If we slice both tracks in short segments of time, the crossing points are so short in duration, (micro-seconds) the cancellation effects are generally not audable.
Again, the reason the synth bass will dominate, (over the kick drum) is due to how the mix was assembled. The kick drum is still present, but because the synth signal is notably stronger, you hear that more than the kick drum. The kick is still there. But, it has been masked by a larger signal from the synth bass.
FYI: I was a bass player and often noted that the kick drum, toms and bass notes would often happen at the same time. We are the time keepers section of the band. I eventually learned to use simple tones when the drummer was playing his "riffs" as bass "riffs" would be totally masked by the drum kit activity.
Same effect... the drum kit was dominate. The bass lines got buried. So, why compete? I simply learned to meter the drummer's activities to compliment and punctuate the beat.
That's the best I can explain what you are noting,
Swez
JMB on 12/5/2005 01:09:34
Yeah that make sence to me Swez, Cheers mate.
BgDustin4 on 12/5/2005 20:35:25
lol confusing
MrBrownstone on 12/6/2005 21:32:21
You think that's confusing, you should hear Swez explain how, why and what he was doing helping that sheep over the fence.
That, is a twisted tale in itself.
JMB on 12/6/2005 22:55:56
Plenty of sheep over here in New Zealand Swez, 13 sheep per person i think.
Victor on 12/7/2005 02:40:21
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Harvester on 12/11/2005 22:34:37
TMI.....
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