Can someone give me some feedback on JBL’s power p650c components? I’ve been looking for some inexpensive quality speakers for rear fill. I’ve got 6.5” infinity 6000c reference components up front. My idea is to maybe spend a bit more for something decent up front and throw the infinities in the back. I found the p650c for ~$150, which seems like a good deal as JBL has an MSRP of $425. I’ll be running both pairs off an infinity 7541a, which will do 111w x 4. Both the infinitys and JBLs are 90w rms. Thanks.
Replies (13)
swez on 11/26/2005 09:37:49
Not a bad price for JBL Comps. Noted these tweeters are Ti, edge drive. These are going to be very "bright" (some say shrill or harsh) sounding to the critical listener. Just depends on how you like your highs. As you say, put your best gear up front. Your ears will be the judge.
The Infinitiy 600CS are silk tweeters. They tend to have a more natural tone to them. If you like your highs more bright and crisp, use the JBL's up front.
FYI: JBL and Infinity have the same parent company. (Harman Intl.) Am sure they share some common technologies as well as compete for market share.
Swez
Ash on 11/26/2005 09:52:39
JBL and Infinity both are manufactured by the same company: Harman Int. Both these series are somewhat similiar in specs, though the Reference series is Infinity's lower line product.
What is it that you don't like about the Infinity's at this point, and are you currently running that amp to them?
pigwiggle on 11/26/2005 10:43:51
I think I’ve just become accustomed to the infinities. When I first replaced the stock speakers I found myself making excuses to drive around. The difference was striking; I could hear even the minutia, like the rattle of a bass string on the fret board. Now I find myself easily fatigued and a bit bored with the sound.
I’m running them from an infinity 7520a, which is essentially the two channel 7541a. I found a great deal on the 7541a so the 7520a is destined to power a new infinity KP 10.1 10” arriving next week.
Ash on 11/26/2005 11:37:05
Could be "listening fatigue"? Not sure why, because looks like you have a good setup so far. Does it distort any at high volumes? If so, could just need a little tweaking on the crossover and gain.
Well, the difference it made doesn't sound bad at all if your'e able to hear more subtleties. How is the soundstage? Does the music seem to wrap around you or sound like your at a concert standing in front of the stage? Where are the tweeters located at?
You could wait till you get the sub before changing the Infinity's out. It might be the missing link to what you want. Then later, if it sounds good, you could put a set of Reference coaxials in the back to complete it all. That would be a good setup!
swez on 11/26/2005 11:50:07
Listener fatigue is common at higher SPL levels. Once we get above ~100dB for 15-20 minutes of listening time, the brain "shunts" our ears to protect them. This is normal and a good thing as well. (protects our ears)
One thing some guys do, is to move the tweeters to the "A" pillar and fire them at the rear view mirror. This helps improve "imaging", cuts down on "beaming" tweeters and adds a nice ambient dimension to the listening environment. Helps with listening fatigue too.
Also, if you choose not to move your tweets, does the crossover have an attenuator circuit in it for the tweet? If yes, consider changing tweet output level that way and drop it by 2-3dB. You can also use EQ to get the same effect. A few dB drop at 4Khz and up may help.
Swez
pigwiggle on 11/26/2005 11:57:44
I don’t think they are distorting. The amp has an LED that indicates when it clips. I never let them clip. Are there other ways a speaker may distort aside from clipping? The front speakers are in the factory locations; woofers in the door, tweeters at the ‘wing window’. The separation of the stage elements is good but the entire stage is too low, right at my chest. I was hoping I could bring it up a bit with the rear speaker placement. There really isn’t any room to place the front speaker anywhere else and I’m trying my best to keep it all looking like original equipment. I’ve already had one break in (just for the change in my ashtray).
Oh, and the infinitys don’t have an attenuator but I noticed the JBLs I’m looking into do.
ttocs on 11/26/2005 13:13:20
Infinity speakers have always been a little too rich in the high freqs for my taste. They get too loud too soon.......
Ash on 11/26/2005 15:20:51
I'v e heard the same about that particular series too. Probably designed to be bright. A simple fixed L-Pad could easily tone that hot tweet down to proper attenuation. Sometimes placing the tweeter in close proximity to the woofer can tone down the brightness. Most manufacturers recommend that type of comp setup. Then a small HU powered tweeter can be used up higher and more forward to help bring up the soundstage without being overbearing.
The attenuator on the JBL's is a good thing, but it is probably needed because the metal tweeter is hot as well. The smoothest response is gonna be your soft domes with a attenuator.
swez on 11/26/2005 17:46:15
Aimimg the tweeters can play a big role in how a system sounds.
Tweeters are high frequency devices and tend tp "beam" their music output in a small cone pattern. The cone (radial polar patterns) can look like this, V or better yet, like this: \ / . The wider the pattern, the less "beaming" one gets.
We can either diffuse the pattern with an external lense or aim the tweeter a few degrees off center. Tweeters have "on axis" and "off axis" polar radiation patterns. "Off axis" patterns tend to be several dB down from "on axis" install methods. Either would definitely cut down on the "beaming effects"
Ash mentioned, you can add an L-pad to each tweeter and adjust tweeter output that way. However, most L-pads I have seen, are rated for 8 ohm speakers. Even if you could find 4 ohm L-pads, this will pose a problem for you. See details below.
A concern I have, is that the crossover components are matched to tweeter impedance. If you change the tweeter resistance with an L-pad (or fixed resistors) and do not compensate for the new ohmic load in the crossovers, the filter slopes will change. That would be very bad news for your tweets and how they sound. (or last)
In this case, doubling the resistance (4 ohms added = -3dB) output will shift your tweeter frequency downward by 1 full octave. (Eample: 4 ohm tweets are crossed at say 3,000 Hz., now. Add a 4 ohm resistor as an attenuator, the tweeter now crosses over at 1500 Hz.) Bad news for most tweeters and they will easliy blow. FROWN
Hope that helps,
Swez
Ash on 11/27/2005 06:26:51
Your'e right Swez, didn't think about that one. Your probably just better off repositioning the tweeter, if not then maybe the JBL will work better for you.
swez on 11/27/2005 20:50:39
That's why they pay me the big bucks Ash. SMILE
Swez
pigwiggle on 11/28/2005 11:22:35
Out of curiosity, what would happen if I used the silk tweeters with the crossover for the Ti tweeters?
swez on 11/28/2005 13:26:44
Metal domes are generally very bright and good for those who need bright tweets to cut through the bass tracks.
Silk domes are more natural and smooth sounding. If you have good hearing and like a more natural sound in your highs, sure... can swap to silks and see how you like them.
If you do go silks, just make sure they are the same impedance, approximate power handling and similar efficiency ratings as your MR speakers. A little EQ will also help. If you have that feature on your HU or an outboard add on, cut back a few dB on the 3,000 Hz and up range. That would soften your present tweets as well.
Swez
Replies (13)
swez on 11/26/2005 09:37:49
Not a bad price for JBL Comps. Noted these tweeters are Ti, edge drive. These are going to be very "bright" (some say shrill or harsh) sounding to the critical listener. Just depends on how you like your highs. As you say, put your best gear up front. Your ears will be the judge.
The Infinitiy 600CS are silk tweeters. They tend to have a more natural tone to them. If you like your highs more bright and crisp, use the JBL's up front.
FYI: JBL and Infinity have the same parent company. (Harman Intl.) Am sure they share some common technologies as well as compete for market share.
Swez
Ash on 11/26/2005 09:52:39
JBL and Infinity both are manufactured by the same company: Harman Int. Both these series are somewhat similiar in specs, though the Reference series is Infinity's lower line product.
What is it that you don't like about the Infinity's at this point, and are you currently running that amp to them?
pigwiggle on 11/26/2005 10:43:51
I think I’ve just become accustomed to the infinities. When I first replaced the stock speakers I found myself making excuses to drive around. The difference was striking; I could hear even the minutia, like the rattle of a bass string on the fret board. Now I find myself easily fatigued and a bit bored with the sound.
I’m running them from an infinity 7520a, which is essentially the two channel 7541a. I found a great deal on the 7541a so the 7520a is destined to power a new infinity KP 10.1 10” arriving next week.
Ash on 11/26/2005 11:37:05
Could be "listening fatigue"? Not sure why, because looks like you have a good setup so far. Does it distort any at high volumes? If so, could just need a little tweaking on the crossover and gain.
Well, the difference it made doesn't sound bad at all if your'e able to hear more subtleties. How is the soundstage? Does the music seem to wrap around you or sound like your at a concert standing in front of the stage? Where are the tweeters located at?
You could wait till you get the sub before changing the Infinity's out. It might be the missing link to what you want. Then later, if it sounds good, you could put a set of Reference coaxials in the back to complete it all. That would be a good setup!
swez on 11/26/2005 11:50:07
Listener fatigue is common at higher SPL levels. Once we get above ~100dB for 15-20 minutes of listening time, the brain "shunts" our ears to protect them. This is normal and a good thing as well. (protects our ears)
One thing some guys do, is to move the tweeters to the "A" pillar and fire them at the rear view mirror. This helps improve "imaging", cuts down on "beaming" tweeters and adds a nice ambient dimension to the listening environment. Helps with listening fatigue too.
Also, if you choose not to move your tweets, does the crossover have an attenuator circuit in it for the tweet? If yes, consider changing tweet output level that way and drop it by 2-3dB. You can also use EQ to get the same effect. A few dB drop at 4Khz and up may help.
Swez
pigwiggle on 11/26/2005 11:57:44
I don’t think they are distorting. The amp has an LED that indicates when it clips. I never let them clip. Are there other ways a speaker may distort aside from clipping? The front speakers are in the factory locations; woofers in the door, tweeters at the ‘wing window’. The separation of the stage elements is good but the entire stage is too low, right at my chest. I was hoping I could bring it up a bit with the rear speaker placement. There really isn’t any room to place the front speaker anywhere else and I’m trying my best to keep it all looking like original equipment. I’ve already had one break in (just for the change in my ashtray).
Oh, and the infinitys don’t have an attenuator but I noticed the JBLs I’m looking into do.
ttocs on 11/26/2005 13:13:20
Infinity speakers have always been a little too rich in the high freqs for my taste. They get too loud too soon.......
Ash on 11/26/2005 15:20:51
I'v e heard the same about that particular series too. Probably designed to be bright. A simple fixed L-Pad could easily tone that hot tweet down to proper attenuation. Sometimes placing the tweeter in close proximity to the woofer can tone down the brightness. Most manufacturers recommend that type of comp setup. Then a small HU powered tweeter can be used up higher and more forward to help bring up the soundstage without being overbearing.
The attenuator on the JBL's is a good thing, but it is probably needed because the metal tweeter is hot as well. The smoothest response is gonna be your soft domes with a attenuator.
swez on 11/26/2005 17:46:15
Aimimg the tweeters can play a big role in how a system sounds.
Tweeters are high frequency devices and tend tp "beam" their music output in a small cone pattern. The cone (radial polar patterns) can look like this, V or better yet, like this: \ / . The wider the pattern, the less "beaming" one gets.
We can either diffuse the pattern with an external lense or aim the tweeter a few degrees off center. Tweeters have "on axis" and "off axis" polar radiation patterns. "Off axis" patterns tend to be several dB down from "on axis" install methods. Either would definitely cut down on the "beaming effects"
Ash mentioned, you can add an L-pad to each tweeter and adjust tweeter output that way. However, most L-pads I have seen, are rated for 8 ohm speakers. Even if you could find 4 ohm L-pads, this will pose a problem for you. See details below.
A concern I have, is that the crossover components are matched to tweeter impedance. If you change the tweeter resistance with an L-pad (or fixed resistors) and do not compensate for the new ohmic load in the crossovers, the filter slopes will change. That would be very bad news for your tweets and how they sound. (or last)
In this case, doubling the resistance (4 ohms added = -3dB) output will shift your tweeter frequency downward by 1 full octave. (Eample: 4 ohm tweets are crossed at say 3,000 Hz., now. Add a 4 ohm resistor as an attenuator, the tweeter now crosses over at 1500 Hz.) Bad news for most tweeters and they will easliy blow. FROWN
Hope that helps,
Swez
Ash on 11/27/2005 06:26:51
Your'e right Swez, didn't think about that one. Your probably just better off repositioning the tweeter, if not then maybe the JBL will work better for you.
swez on 11/27/2005 20:50:39
That's why they pay me the big bucks Ash. SMILE
Swez
pigwiggle on 11/28/2005 11:22:35
Out of curiosity, what would happen if I used the silk tweeters with the crossover for the Ti tweeters?
swez on 11/28/2005 13:26:44
Metal domes are generally very bright and good for those who need bright tweets to cut through the bass tracks.
Silk domes are more natural and smooth sounding. If you have good hearing and like a more natural sound in your highs, sure... can swap to silks and see how you like them.
If you do go silks, just make sure they are the same impedance, approximate power handling and similar efficiency ratings as your MR speakers. A little EQ will also help. If you have that feature on your HU or an outboard add on, cut back a few dB on the 3,000 Hz and up range. That would soften your present tweets as well.
Swez
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