I am completely rehauling my system:
I will have:
Optima Yellow Top Battery.
Some sort of custom alternator (170 AMP highest I've found so far for my car).
Leaning towards a CAP of some kind, either the 15 Farad or the 20 Farad Phoenix Gold TiPowerCore. Not sure which one?
I will be running two sets of Focal Utopia 165W 6.5" 2-way component sets in the front off of a Phoenix Gold Titanium 1000.2 and running 3 JL-Audio 10W-0s in an enclosed box in the back off of the Phoenix Gold Titanium 800.1. Eventually I'll upgrade to 2 10-W7s. But that's a ways off with the cost of everything else. I was wondering:
1. What is the minimum AMP alternator I should go with?
2. What size cap should I get or is it the more the better?
THANKS!
Replies (7)
Swez on 07/25/2003 10:05:08
Cannot seem to find the current draw specs on each amp mentioned.
Am sure the 1000.2 is a Class A/B amp and this amp will probably have the largest current draw. What are the fuse values in this amp?
The 800.1 amp... is that a Class D amp or other? What is the fuse rating on this amp as well?
If you have a 170A Alt and a yellow top, that might be enough, if the CCA rating of the Optima battery is 800 CCA or higher. Upgrades to the wire gage off ALT to BAT and BAT to GND will also help... #4 hage wire is minimum recommended here... #2 is better, to get full current output from ALT to the rest rest of the system.
Save your money on a huge Cap.... if you do the wiring well, should not need the CAP at all. Nice system you have pending here!
Swez
mikejmoore99 on 07/25/2003 11:40:49
Thanks for the compliment on the system.
The fuse size on both AMPs is 80A.
I believe both are Class A/B amps.
750 CCA on the battery.
I will be upgrading from 4 guage wire to 0 gauge wire off of the battery.
I also have a Tantrum 500.2 and 6.5" MB Quart RKC-116 Coaxials that I was thinking about using for rear fill. Will that just put me over the top on power needs or will I be able to notice them anyway with 2 sets of Focals in the front? Thanks for your help! :)
Swez on 07/25/2003 19:02:14
With 2 sets of Focals in front and that amp, you have plenty of mids and highs to the front stage and adequate bass power too. Adding more amps and rear speakers to the rear stage will only complicate matters in terms of power management.
Really, depends on your listening habits... if you crank the mid/high and subs frequently, power issues will show up in dimming lights and power starvation to amps and the rest of your electricals. However, if you are prudent... what have is on the fuzzy edge of trouble with regard to power management. This is due to Class A/B amps mentioned.
The best I can suggest, go as planned for now and see how it goes. If you miss the rear channels... adding more gear is possible... but power draw will exceed your electrical system capabilities at high output over extended periods of time.
In short, if you want to crank it up... keep it in short durations and allow the ALT/BAT to recover a full charge, back into the battery. Also, do upgrade the wires between ALT/BAT and BAT GND as mentioned earlier and see how you fare.
Comments?
Swez
mikejmoore99 on 07/25/2003 19:29:53
Thanks for the info. I guess the only other question that comes to mind is...
Are there better 10" Subs out there than JL-Audios 10W7s. I don't really care about the price. Thanks.
Swez on 07/26/2003 07:18:19
Well, that a debate that could go on forever... who makes the best sub... I mean.
JL makes fine audio products and no one will dispute that, if you don't mind their prices. However, getting the enclosure to "optimal" range of performance is probably not a bad place to look.
The W0 series is entry level while the W7 is the flagship of the sub line and 3 W0's in a well designed sealed box won't take the power your new amp can dish out.
However a pair of W7's will. These subs are fine with 500 RMS per sub, sealed or ported. See chart: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
If you go sealed, optimal is 1.25cf per sub (internal). If you go ported, 1.50cf per sub, tuned to 32Hz is recommended by JL for this sub. See specs: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w7.html
In short, if money is not an issue and you want both SQ and SPL performace, the W7 will deliver on both.
Finally, the W7 has a single 3 ohm voice coil. That means your 800.1 amp will have to be stable at 1.5 ohms if you wire them in parallel. If not, your other options are to:
1. Wire them in series for a 6 ohm load and lose amping power
2. Try a different JL sub set The W6v2 is 4 ohm DVC and a pair of these can be wired for 1 or 4 ohms loads which are rates at 400 RMS per sub.
Swez
PS It really boils down to what your amp can do in terms of ohms loads. Check your owners manual for recommended loads and power ratings. If this amp is 1 ohm stable, you're home free with a pair of W7's or W6v2's. If 2 ohms stable, the W6v2's make this your best choice.... but you'll get 50% of the amp potential power in a 4 ohm configuration. Otherwise, have to look in a new direction here.
mikejmoore99 on 07/26/2003 12:59:40
SWEZ you ROCK!!! Thanks for all your help. I like the fact that you tell me things I already know which confirms to me that he advice I'm getting elsewhere is probably good. It's rare to find an honest salesman and I think I've found one. Also it helps confirm that you know what you're talking about too--like that's not already obvious any way. You are so attentive to details on my system. I'm really impressed! Both Titanium amps are stable at 1 Ohm loads so that should be no problem. The main reason why I'm going to a 2nd pair of focals is b/c the 3 10W0s almost overpower the Focals as it is and if I want to upgrade to W7s then I need at least 1 more pair of Focals in the front.
As for the box size, I found this link (interesting read):
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0210cae_jla/
Note the following paragraph from that write-up:
So I get the 10W7-3 out of its shipping carton and I give Steve Turrisi, Director of Technical Services at JL Audio, a call to ask for the company's official recommendations on the proper style and size of enclosure to achieve maximum sound quality. He recommended a sealed enclosure with a net volume of 1.25 ft3. Steve told me that the 10W7-3's displacement is a healthy 0.09 ft3. (As a comparison, many 15" subwoofers are about the same displacement.) With this in mind, I installed the 10W7 into a sealed enclosure of 1.34 ft3 gross volume. This should net out to the recommended 1.25 ft3 that Steve prescribed for maximum sound quality.
Wat do you think about the 1.34ft3 instead of 1.25 based on the above paragraph...probably splitting hairs, but maybe he's right. Your thoughts would be appreciated as I have no idea what he's talking about. THANKS!
PS. The specs on the Ti800.1 is 800x1 at 2 Ohm at 14.4 Vdc, 1000x1 (Dynamic Power), 400x1 at 4 Ohm, stable at 1 Ohm...what would guess the wattage would be @ 1 Ohm as they don't spec it at that. Thanks, again.
Swez on 07/27/2003 18:18:47
Thank you Michael...
Have been in Technical Sales for >15 years and understand the value of knowing the clients' spoken needs while reaching for those unspoken needs as well... IN A LANGUAGE NON-ENGINEERS CAN UNDERSTAND! I try any way...
As for box designs... the subs will do fine in a 1.25 cf (net internal) volume, have good low bass response and not reach X-max prematurely as they could in a larger sealed or ported enclosure. The 1.34 cf will also work fine, go a bit lower in bass, but power handling may drop a bit due to a larger airspace. By all means, do use polyfill to help with back of the cone reflections. Either way, would expect very good performance from this massive sub.
FYI: It's a trade off here in box design... smaller sealed boxes tend to have higher SPL power handling , but sacrifice low end bass performance. On the other end of the scale, a larger box will give more deep lows, but power handling and cone control will suffer as input watts climbs to near X-max. It takes less power for the sub to reach X-max and thermal compression (highj voice coil temps reduce SPL output) comes into play as well.
Good article you noted.... well worth the read time and very straight up details on how well JL really does design, build and package their W7 series subs. Just take the time to read the install instructions on this sub. Is very different from conventional subs. The clamp ring assy and internal screw mounting is radically different from all other subs on the market to date.
In short... take your time with the install process and all will be a very above average install.
Cheers,
Swez
PS Thanks again for the personal "kuddos" .... I do this as I really like seeing others succeed in their plans. Don't forget to thank Walter Hargrave for such a great site. Because of his efforts, we all have a great place to share information. A "modest" donation to the site would be very appropriate, if you feel you got something useful here.
I will have:
Optima Yellow Top Battery.
Some sort of custom alternator (170 AMP highest I've found so far for my car).
Leaning towards a CAP of some kind, either the 15 Farad or the 20 Farad Phoenix Gold TiPowerCore. Not sure which one?
I will be running two sets of Focal Utopia 165W 6.5" 2-way component sets in the front off of a Phoenix Gold Titanium 1000.2 and running 3 JL-Audio 10W-0s in an enclosed box in the back off of the Phoenix Gold Titanium 800.1. Eventually I'll upgrade to 2 10-W7s. But that's a ways off with the cost of everything else. I was wondering:
1. What is the minimum AMP alternator I should go with?
2. What size cap should I get or is it the more the better?
THANKS!
Replies (7)
Swez on 07/25/2003 10:05:08
Cannot seem to find the current draw specs on each amp mentioned.
Am sure the 1000.2 is a Class A/B amp and this amp will probably have the largest current draw. What are the fuse values in this amp?
The 800.1 amp... is that a Class D amp or other? What is the fuse rating on this amp as well?
If you have a 170A Alt and a yellow top, that might be enough, if the CCA rating of the Optima battery is 800 CCA or higher. Upgrades to the wire gage off ALT to BAT and BAT to GND will also help... #4 hage wire is minimum recommended here... #2 is better, to get full current output from ALT to the rest rest of the system.
Save your money on a huge Cap.... if you do the wiring well, should not need the CAP at all. Nice system you have pending here!
Swez
mikejmoore99 on 07/25/2003 11:40:49
Thanks for the compliment on the system.
The fuse size on both AMPs is 80A.
I believe both are Class A/B amps.
750 CCA on the battery.
I will be upgrading from 4 guage wire to 0 gauge wire off of the battery.
I also have a Tantrum 500.2 and 6.5" MB Quart RKC-116 Coaxials that I was thinking about using for rear fill. Will that just put me over the top on power needs or will I be able to notice them anyway with 2 sets of Focals in the front? Thanks for your help! :)
Swez on 07/25/2003 19:02:14
With 2 sets of Focals in front and that amp, you have plenty of mids and highs to the front stage and adequate bass power too. Adding more amps and rear speakers to the rear stage will only complicate matters in terms of power management.
Really, depends on your listening habits... if you crank the mid/high and subs frequently, power issues will show up in dimming lights and power starvation to amps and the rest of your electricals. However, if you are prudent... what have is on the fuzzy edge of trouble with regard to power management. This is due to Class A/B amps mentioned.
The best I can suggest, go as planned for now and see how it goes. If you miss the rear channels... adding more gear is possible... but power draw will exceed your electrical system capabilities at high output over extended periods of time.
In short, if you want to crank it up... keep it in short durations and allow the ALT/BAT to recover a full charge, back into the battery. Also, do upgrade the wires between ALT/BAT and BAT GND as mentioned earlier and see how you fare.
Comments?
Swez
mikejmoore99 on 07/25/2003 19:29:53
Thanks for the info. I guess the only other question that comes to mind is...
Are there better 10" Subs out there than JL-Audios 10W7s. I don't really care about the price. Thanks.
Swez on 07/26/2003 07:18:19
Well, that a debate that could go on forever... who makes the best sub... I mean.
JL makes fine audio products and no one will dispute that, if you don't mind their prices. However, getting the enclosure to "optimal" range of performance is probably not a bad place to look.
The W0 series is entry level while the W7 is the flagship of the sub line and 3 W0's in a well designed sealed box won't take the power your new amp can dish out.
However a pair of W7's will. These subs are fine with 500 RMS per sub, sealed or ported. See chart: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
If you go sealed, optimal is 1.25cf per sub (internal). If you go ported, 1.50cf per sub, tuned to 32Hz is recommended by JL for this sub. See specs: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w7.html
In short, if money is not an issue and you want both SQ and SPL performace, the W7 will deliver on both.
Finally, the W7 has a single 3 ohm voice coil. That means your 800.1 amp will have to be stable at 1.5 ohms if you wire them in parallel. If not, your other options are to:
1. Wire them in series for a 6 ohm load and lose amping power
2. Try a different JL sub set The W6v2 is 4 ohm DVC and a pair of these can be wired for 1 or 4 ohms loads which are rates at 400 RMS per sub.
Swez
PS It really boils down to what your amp can do in terms of ohms loads. Check your owners manual for recommended loads and power ratings. If this amp is 1 ohm stable, you're home free with a pair of W7's or W6v2's. If 2 ohms stable, the W6v2's make this your best choice.... but you'll get 50% of the amp potential power in a 4 ohm configuration. Otherwise, have to look in a new direction here.
mikejmoore99 on 07/26/2003 12:59:40
SWEZ you ROCK!!! Thanks for all your help. I like the fact that you tell me things I already know which confirms to me that he advice I'm getting elsewhere is probably good. It's rare to find an honest salesman and I think I've found one. Also it helps confirm that you know what you're talking about too--like that's not already obvious any way. You are so attentive to details on my system. I'm really impressed! Both Titanium amps are stable at 1 Ohm loads so that should be no problem. The main reason why I'm going to a 2nd pair of focals is b/c the 3 10W0s almost overpower the Focals as it is and if I want to upgrade to W7s then I need at least 1 more pair of Focals in the front.
As for the box size, I found this link (interesting read):
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0210cae_jla/
Note the following paragraph from that write-up:
So I get the 10W7-3 out of its shipping carton and I give Steve Turrisi, Director of Technical Services at JL Audio, a call to ask for the company's official recommendations on the proper style and size of enclosure to achieve maximum sound quality. He recommended a sealed enclosure with a net volume of 1.25 ft3. Steve told me that the 10W7-3's displacement is a healthy 0.09 ft3. (As a comparison, many 15" subwoofers are about the same displacement.) With this in mind, I installed the 10W7 into a sealed enclosure of 1.34 ft3 gross volume. This should net out to the recommended 1.25 ft3 that Steve prescribed for maximum sound quality.
Wat do you think about the 1.34ft3 instead of 1.25 based on the above paragraph...probably splitting hairs, but maybe he's right. Your thoughts would be appreciated as I have no idea what he's talking about. THANKS!
PS. The specs on the Ti800.1 is 800x1 at 2 Ohm at 14.4 Vdc, 1000x1 (Dynamic Power), 400x1 at 4 Ohm, stable at 1 Ohm...what would guess the wattage would be @ 1 Ohm as they don't spec it at that. Thanks, again.
Swez on 07/27/2003 18:18:47
Thank you Michael...
Have been in Technical Sales for >15 years and understand the value of knowing the clients' spoken needs while reaching for those unspoken needs as well... IN A LANGUAGE NON-ENGINEERS CAN UNDERSTAND! I try any way...
As for box designs... the subs will do fine in a 1.25 cf (net internal) volume, have good low bass response and not reach X-max prematurely as they could in a larger sealed or ported enclosure. The 1.34 cf will also work fine, go a bit lower in bass, but power handling may drop a bit due to a larger airspace. By all means, do use polyfill to help with back of the cone reflections. Either way, would expect very good performance from this massive sub.
FYI: It's a trade off here in box design... smaller sealed boxes tend to have higher SPL power handling , but sacrifice low end bass performance. On the other end of the scale, a larger box will give more deep lows, but power handling and cone control will suffer as input watts climbs to near X-max. It takes less power for the sub to reach X-max and thermal compression (highj voice coil temps reduce SPL output) comes into play as well.
Good article you noted.... well worth the read time and very straight up details on how well JL really does design, build and package their W7 series subs. Just take the time to read the install instructions on this sub. Is very different from conventional subs. The clamp ring assy and internal screw mounting is radically different from all other subs on the market to date.
In short... take your time with the install process and all will be a very above average install.
Cheers,
Swez
PS Thanks again for the personal "kuddos" .... I do this as I really like seeing others succeed in their plans. Don't forget to thank Walter Hargrave for such a great site. Because of his efforts, we all have a great place to share information. A "modest" donation to the site would be very appropriate, if you feel you got something useful here.
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