Yo Swez, do you remember in an older thread where you said had installed some of the 6.5/7" Goldwood's in someones ride. Well, how did that turn out? I think you said you ran them off the Hu if I can remember. Anyway, thinkin about re-doing my doors. The 5.25" just ain't cutting it anymore. I plan on keeping the tweets but, just gotta have more presence from up front.
Please give a overall on them so I can see if they're worth trying.
Replies (18)
swez on 11/6/2005 12:05:27
Yes, it was on my Buick LeSabre, 2 years ago. I was in Florida at the time and did not have access to all my toys from home. They are 5.25" MB speakers. Here are specs:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-301
They definitely need more power than just stock HU to get the most from them. However, they do sound pretty decent for the price I paid for them. ($7.00/ea.)
Good lows to about 80 Hz and very good midrange extention too. Just need more power, (50 Wrms or more) to get them up to full potential. Again, for the price, I cannot complain.
Swez
asplundher on 11/6/2005 12:12:45
Do you think the 6.5's are worth trying? How would describe the midbass quality? Tight, snappy, thumpy, punchy, robust, loose,etc.
Also was midrange extention smooth and what type tweeter would they work best with (hard or soft)?
Sorry for all the questions but I have been contemplating going to these for a few years now and think it's time to try them.
swez on 11/6/2005 16:06:10
Gee Ash, I don't wish to bias you in any given direction here, but for the cost, (pocket change) it was well worth the money and time to install them. However, I have yet to put some real fire in them to see what they sound like at more than 10-15 watts.
If you look at the frequency plots, you will see this speaker series (6.5") is pretty linear from 60-100 Hz. Then very flat from 100 Hz., up to about 1.0Khz. From there, it gets a bit peaky and then dips irregularly from 3.0 Khz., and up. I would say this driver is probably going to need a crossover point below 3Khz., and some attenuation filtering (EQ) above 1.5 Khz. Other than that, it's pretty flat to +/- 3dB.
Have a look at the 6.5/7.0" plot: GOLDWOOD GW-S650/4 7" POLY CONE WOOFER 4 OHM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-308.pdf
In my opinion, not too bad for a pocket change speaker. I wish the other Goldwood speakers had plot info as well. Then it would be easier to access general performance of these other MB/MR drivers too.
Have a look at these plots too:
1. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-300.pdf (3-5/16" depth)
2. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-352.pdf (3-5/16" depth)
I looked for linearity and somewhat flat response curves when I chose the 5.25" model. With only minor adjustments in EQ, they sound pretty fair for the change I paid for them. That's about all I can tell you at the moment.
Swez
PS They sound pretty tight and smooth to about 80 Hz. Above that, not a lot of un-natural coloring or overly middy sounding. A little EQ in the hot spots is all they need to stay reasonably flat, 100 - 3.5 Khz.
asplundher on 11/6/2005 17:25:51
Don't worry about the bias. I already was after some years long research for the close to perfect budget midbass that also included parameters. Nothing else was comparing within it price range. For what the Goldwoods offer, the other anamolies won't be hard to deal with. A good silk tweet should take care of most of that.
Thanks,
swez on 11/6/2005 17:39:40
Yep, pretty much my plan as well. I have some gear stored in a box and have been debating whether to do it now or hold off til the next vehicle.
When the install is finally done, going to run over to my brother's place, whip out the ol RTA and SPL meters and run it through its paces. That will tell me how much EQ or sound shaping is needed to obtain a decent SQL install.
I doubt I will go as far as "matting" the whole vehicle as such, but any really annoying rattles and resonances will be dealt with.
Good luck in your component searches. That's half the fun. "Lemme see here... how can I make a low budget system sound like a $3,000.00 install"?
If I make it to that point, will let ya know. That's part of the challenge. The other part is getting off my butt to do it. Just taking the dash apart on this Buick is a major P.I.T.A. But then again, I never claimed to be a "Master Installer" either. ;-)
Swez
Ash on 11/12/2005 19:13:56
Just had a brainstorm! Got some audax VP170G0 (2) laying around. They were supposed to be installed in my girls car for rear fill. She already has a set for the front and won't miss them. I know what your thinking (that's just wrong!), but I'm the one that found them anyway($9 ea @ madisound), and besides she can't tell the difference between them and a pair of Pyramid coaxials (what a waste!)
Well after running them through WIN ISD I found that in approximately .16cft (Qtc= .86), I can get a f3 of about 80hz with a flat response. Can even take them in a even smaller enclosure to attain a more stronger midbass +1-3db around 100-200hz without exceeding Qtc .9. I don't think it will be a problem for their xmax is 4mm and using a active x-over about 80 to 100hz should protect them more so.
Then I could put the 4" comps in my kick panel for high midrange and up and use a coil on the audax's so they will play lower midrange to midbass only. It will basically be a 3 way. I can amp them separate from the 4"s on my USB-4065 for ease of attenuation. That kind of airspace should be easy to attain with simple door panel pods.
Wadda ya think?
swez on 11/12/2005 20:38:02
If you don't have the T/S specs on the 4" midrange and very little bass is needed, figure about 150-200 Hz. on them with some decent power should be fine in free air.
However, if you want to experiment, make a test box with a movable rear panel. Something in the range of 6" H, 6" W and variable depth between 3.5 - 5.0". (internal dimensions here) That would net 0.073 - 0.104. Just move the rear panel from min to max and determine the best response to your ears.
What say you?
Swez
PS That's funny, I have the USA-4060 version 4 channel.
Ash on 11/13/2005 09:39:16
I had bought like 3 comp sets: two 5.25"s, and one 4". The 5.25" are too deep for the the kicks with my feet taking up so much room. So I figured the 4" will do good since they will be angled. A small simple pod will have to be built for them as well. I figured a 6.5" in the door should compliment them well since both locations are pretty close to each other.
Ash on 11/18/2005 23:20:49
Hmmm.... getting close. A little peakish around 1khz-2khz range. Yet that sits in x-over range which is good. Everything else including mounting depth looks very good. A simple 6db lpf could work good with this one along with that Tang Band tweet covering the rest from 2k and up. The only con so far is the large frame. Still hard to beat the Goldwood so far on value and performance....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-668
swez on 11/19/2005 12:17:07
Yes, that was my experience too. Goldwood is a very well priced speaker and good performance too.
The one you linked, has good linearity/flatness out to about 2.5 Khz. (+/- 3dB, 80-2,500 Hz) A well designed crossover and solid tweet will get the job done.
In a vehicle, you may find a slight increase in SPL below 100 Hz., due to cabin gain and enclosure effects. This will give you a bit more low end punch as well.
Question: Do you really want a larger format MB driver (7") with such mediocre low end response? It seems that some of the other drivers we have looked at, can do better in 6.5" formats.
Swez
Ash on 11/19/2005 14:22:27
Not really, just not much choices in the 6.5 range with the specs that I want. Did you check out the Audax's I IM-ed you? The response on them are not that great as well, at least I think. Instead of peakish on the high end like the others, it has a large rise around 200hz and a weird dip around 1khz or. I'm not sure what the point of that design is. Figured you could explain that one better.
swez on 11/19/2005 19:35:52
Looked at that and the 4" MR you mentioned. Looks like a very good matchup for a 4-way component system. All that is needed now, are the tweeters you wish to use.
I liked the Bi-amping plan we touched on, in our YIM chat. With some good planning, careful designing and adequate crossovers, you'll have one of the better sounding SQL system around for a fraction of what comparable retail costs.
You can soon join my "Cheep-skate Club" too. Nothing I like better than saving a buck or two, and still getting the quality and performance at a huge discount. hehe
Swez
Ash on 11/20/2005 15:04:54
Okay, did a extended search for viable crossovers that will control a 3-way component set + sub. Bear in mind all setups will have to use a passive for midrange lowpass and tweeter hipass. Have several options here:
1. Use one (several models available) that's infinitely variable on high pass around 65hz to 800hz. These are just theoretical points that won't be necessarily used but will help to be available for tuning. Passive lpf will have to be used for midbass.
2. I have the USB 2080, 4065, and 2150, lucky me! The 2080 has the widest hipass adjustments in the series. Switch out the 2150 to the 2080 on subs. While running sub/s (HU rear fed) it will preout feed the front 4065 (midrange). The rear 4065 (HU front fed) will run the midbass with passive lpf. Only con will be less power to the current subs (8") which may be still okay in a EBS box. Can run a 10" (I have several to choose from) if wanted, so still not too bad. This route will eliminate extra electronics.
3. Found only two crossovers that will work without a midbass passive lpf for ease of tuning (this will be keeping the 2150 on subs):
An Audiocontrol 4XS... too expensive and complex to be worth the small gain. SSF is the only real pro.
A Pyramid CR71 (don't laugh!) which seems to be very flexible and of course very cheap. Con: can the specs on this thing be real? Seems a little too good to be true. Gimme your opinion.
http://www.pyramidcaraudio.com/manuals/CR71.pdf
swez on 11/20/2005 18:45:51
I'm not laughing as I too have looked at this stuff with interest in the past for a future install. I think PE carries them as well and maybe Legacy, Lanzar and Pyle make some too.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=35&ObjectGroup_ID=521&SO=2
We'll have to put our heads together a bit to see how best to configure something like this for your plans and hopefully, you can get one cheap w/ return a policy, if not to your liking.
The separate gain controls in Tri-amp mode will make this much easier to balance out your component SPL limits too.
Swez
Ash on 11/21/2005 17:45:02
You know, it's pretty sad when you have all these different brands on the market, but hardly anyone wants to be a pioneer. This is what separates mere "slice of the pie" companies from those who actually think "out of the box": CREATIVITY & FLEXIBILITY! Not that I'm bashing any certain brand or being demanding, but yet when all you see is one following another in design, you have to wonder "why should I choose brand X for more money?". A "name" perhaps?
After looking at various crossovers from numerous companies from "el cheapo's" to "cream of the crops", I have found that they pretty much are all the same. Slopes, frequency cutoffs, and bass boost (variable/fixed in frequency and gain) mainly were the only things that differed. In my situation where total control of a true 4-way setup is wanted, options are extremely limited.
If any of you guys read this thread, do a search on 4-way crossovers and see what you come up with. Try and remember where true midbass frequencies (not midrange) are and what cutoffs should be used while you do this. If you choose not to, then I will tell you: nothing more than a hyped up 3-way still offering very limited controls. To add to the problem, the price tag tacked on is ridiculous, especially when you haven't really gained any more advantages to most standard 3-ways or worse: features that come on most amps anyway.
After 17 years of being into this hobby, you would expect to see a little more flexibility in keeping up with technology, instead of the same ancient marketing constraints.
swez on 11/21/2005 20:11:08
Would you care for some cheeze and crackers with that whine? LOL
It's a lot of follow the leader here Ash. This is true in most businesses that have been around a while. Problem is, they all look at who's doing what, how big is the pie for a given widget and how much pie can a newcomer snatch off that pie, if they dive into the game. That's what drives a given market.
Brand names are fine, but not the last word. The trick is finding what you really need. Not a 4-way crossover. What you do need is a flexible 3-way crossover for your Comps. The subs will take care of themselves via the sub amp crossover.
Have a few thoughts on how to pull this all together too. Maybe I can catch you on YIM and run a few thoughts across the chalk board. See ya there eh?
Swez
Ash on 11/22/2005 15:50:29
Waaah! Waaah! LOL! Yeah I know, just seems to be not much reasonable help for the creative do-it-yourselfers nowadays. With everything going towards the "all-in-one" packages, they tend to leave out the stuff that really helps. Oh well.
Anyway, what you have in mind, I surely would like to hear. I'm starting to get mental block with all the options that popped up. Thought about the 3-way too, but there seems to be a problem with my plan. Maybe you can clear it up for me and get me motivated again. I'll try and catch ya on IM later this evening. Hard schedule between Thanksgiving grocery shopping, good fishing weather, and chalking up this next design.
Later,
swez on 11/22/2005 19:50:51
Yeah, hectic week here too. I just put in a long day of working outside in pretty chilly conditions. (34 was the high and 25 MPH winds did not help either)
Needless to say, this old body took a good beating in the process. Think I will just go to bed early tonight and we can chat as time permits, later this week. Just not mentally sharp enough at the moment, to give this my best efforts. Yes, it will be challenging... but would a true DIY'er have it any other way?
Later bro,
Swez
Please give a overall on them so I can see if they're worth trying.
Replies (18)
swez on 11/6/2005 12:05:27
Yes, it was on my Buick LeSabre, 2 years ago. I was in Florida at the time and did not have access to all my toys from home. They are 5.25" MB speakers. Here are specs:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-301
They definitely need more power than just stock HU to get the most from them. However, they do sound pretty decent for the price I paid for them. ($7.00/ea.)
Good lows to about 80 Hz and very good midrange extention too. Just need more power, (50 Wrms or more) to get them up to full potential. Again, for the price, I cannot complain.
Swez
asplundher on 11/6/2005 12:12:45
Do you think the 6.5's are worth trying? How would describe the midbass quality? Tight, snappy, thumpy, punchy, robust, loose,etc.
Also was midrange extention smooth and what type tweeter would they work best with (hard or soft)?
Sorry for all the questions but I have been contemplating going to these for a few years now and think it's time to try them.
swez on 11/6/2005 16:06:10
Gee Ash, I don't wish to bias you in any given direction here, but for the cost, (pocket change) it was well worth the money and time to install them. However, I have yet to put some real fire in them to see what they sound like at more than 10-15 watts.
If you look at the frequency plots, you will see this speaker series (6.5") is pretty linear from 60-100 Hz. Then very flat from 100 Hz., up to about 1.0Khz. From there, it gets a bit peaky and then dips irregularly from 3.0 Khz., and up. I would say this driver is probably going to need a crossover point below 3Khz., and some attenuation filtering (EQ) above 1.5 Khz. Other than that, it's pretty flat to +/- 3dB.
Have a look at the 6.5/7.0" plot: GOLDWOOD GW-S650/4 7" POLY CONE WOOFER 4 OHM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-308.pdf
In my opinion, not too bad for a pocket change speaker. I wish the other Goldwood speakers had plot info as well. Then it would be easier to access general performance of these other MB/MR drivers too.
Have a look at these plots too:
1. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-300.pdf (3-5/16" depth)
2. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-352.pdf (3-5/16" depth)
I looked for linearity and somewhat flat response curves when I chose the 5.25" model. With only minor adjustments in EQ, they sound pretty fair for the change I paid for them. That's about all I can tell you at the moment.
Swez
PS They sound pretty tight and smooth to about 80 Hz. Above that, not a lot of un-natural coloring or overly middy sounding. A little EQ in the hot spots is all they need to stay reasonably flat, 100 - 3.5 Khz.
asplundher on 11/6/2005 17:25:51
Don't worry about the bias. I already was after some years long research for the close to perfect budget midbass that also included parameters. Nothing else was comparing within it price range. For what the Goldwoods offer, the other anamolies won't be hard to deal with. A good silk tweet should take care of most of that.
Thanks,
swez on 11/6/2005 17:39:40
Yep, pretty much my plan as well. I have some gear stored in a box and have been debating whether to do it now or hold off til the next vehicle.
When the install is finally done, going to run over to my brother's place, whip out the ol RTA and SPL meters and run it through its paces. That will tell me how much EQ or sound shaping is needed to obtain a decent SQL install.
I doubt I will go as far as "matting" the whole vehicle as such, but any really annoying rattles and resonances will be dealt with.
Good luck in your component searches. That's half the fun. "Lemme see here... how can I make a low budget system sound like a $3,000.00 install"?
If I make it to that point, will let ya know. That's part of the challenge. The other part is getting off my butt to do it. Just taking the dash apart on this Buick is a major P.I.T.A. But then again, I never claimed to be a "Master Installer" either. ;-)
Swez
Ash on 11/12/2005 19:13:56
Just had a brainstorm! Got some audax VP170G0 (2) laying around. They were supposed to be installed in my girls car for rear fill. She already has a set for the front and won't miss them. I know what your thinking (that's just wrong!), but I'm the one that found them anyway($9 ea @ madisound), and besides she can't tell the difference between them and a pair of Pyramid coaxials (what a waste!)
Well after running them through WIN ISD I found that in approximately .16cft (Qtc= .86), I can get a f3 of about 80hz with a flat response. Can even take them in a even smaller enclosure to attain a more stronger midbass +1-3db around 100-200hz without exceeding Qtc .9. I don't think it will be a problem for their xmax is 4mm and using a active x-over about 80 to 100hz should protect them more so.
Then I could put the 4" comps in my kick panel for high midrange and up and use a coil on the audax's so they will play lower midrange to midbass only. It will basically be a 3 way. I can amp them separate from the 4"s on my USB-4065 for ease of attenuation. That kind of airspace should be easy to attain with simple door panel pods.
Wadda ya think?
swez on 11/12/2005 20:38:02
If you don't have the T/S specs on the 4" midrange and very little bass is needed, figure about 150-200 Hz. on them with some decent power should be fine in free air.
However, if you want to experiment, make a test box with a movable rear panel. Something in the range of 6" H, 6" W and variable depth between 3.5 - 5.0". (internal dimensions here) That would net 0.073 - 0.104. Just move the rear panel from min to max and determine the best response to your ears.
What say you?
Swez
PS That's funny, I have the USA-4060 version 4 channel.
Ash on 11/13/2005 09:39:16
I had bought like 3 comp sets: two 5.25"s, and one 4". The 5.25" are too deep for the the kicks with my feet taking up so much room. So I figured the 4" will do good since they will be angled. A small simple pod will have to be built for them as well. I figured a 6.5" in the door should compliment them well since both locations are pretty close to each other.
Ash on 11/18/2005 23:20:49
Hmmm.... getting close. A little peakish around 1khz-2khz range. Yet that sits in x-over range which is good. Everything else including mounting depth looks very good. A simple 6db lpf could work good with this one along with that Tang Band tweet covering the rest from 2k and up. The only con so far is the large frame. Still hard to beat the Goldwood so far on value and performance....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-668
swez on 11/19/2005 12:17:07
Yes, that was my experience too. Goldwood is a very well priced speaker and good performance too.
The one you linked, has good linearity/flatness out to about 2.5 Khz. (+/- 3dB, 80-2,500 Hz) A well designed crossover and solid tweet will get the job done.
In a vehicle, you may find a slight increase in SPL below 100 Hz., due to cabin gain and enclosure effects. This will give you a bit more low end punch as well.
Question: Do you really want a larger format MB driver (7") with such mediocre low end response? It seems that some of the other drivers we have looked at, can do better in 6.5" formats.
Swez
Ash on 11/19/2005 14:22:27
Not really, just not much choices in the 6.5 range with the specs that I want. Did you check out the Audax's I IM-ed you? The response on them are not that great as well, at least I think. Instead of peakish on the high end like the others, it has a large rise around 200hz and a weird dip around 1khz or. I'm not sure what the point of that design is. Figured you could explain that one better.
swez on 11/19/2005 19:35:52
Looked at that and the 4" MR you mentioned. Looks like a very good matchup for a 4-way component system. All that is needed now, are the tweeters you wish to use.
I liked the Bi-amping plan we touched on, in our YIM chat. With some good planning, careful designing and adequate crossovers, you'll have one of the better sounding SQL system around for a fraction of what comparable retail costs.
You can soon join my "Cheep-skate Club" too. Nothing I like better than saving a buck or two, and still getting the quality and performance at a huge discount. hehe
Swez
Ash on 11/20/2005 15:04:54
Okay, did a extended search for viable crossovers that will control a 3-way component set + sub. Bear in mind all setups will have to use a passive for midrange lowpass and tweeter hipass. Have several options here:
1. Use one (several models available) that's infinitely variable on high pass around 65hz to 800hz. These are just theoretical points that won't be necessarily used but will help to be available for tuning. Passive lpf will have to be used for midbass.
2. I have the USB 2080, 4065, and 2150, lucky me! The 2080 has the widest hipass adjustments in the series. Switch out the 2150 to the 2080 on subs. While running sub/s (HU rear fed) it will preout feed the front 4065 (midrange). The rear 4065 (HU front fed) will run the midbass with passive lpf. Only con will be less power to the current subs (8") which may be still okay in a EBS box. Can run a 10" (I have several to choose from) if wanted, so still not too bad. This route will eliminate extra electronics.
3. Found only two crossovers that will work without a midbass passive lpf for ease of tuning (this will be keeping the 2150 on subs):
An Audiocontrol 4XS... too expensive and complex to be worth the small gain. SSF is the only real pro.
A Pyramid CR71 (don't laugh!) which seems to be very flexible and of course very cheap. Con: can the specs on this thing be real? Seems a little too good to be true. Gimme your opinion.
http://www.pyramidcaraudio.com/manuals/CR71.pdf
swez on 11/20/2005 18:45:51
I'm not laughing as I too have looked at this stuff with interest in the past for a future install. I think PE carries them as well and maybe Legacy, Lanzar and Pyle make some too.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=35&ObjectGroup_ID=521&SO=2
We'll have to put our heads together a bit to see how best to configure something like this for your plans and hopefully, you can get one cheap w/ return a policy, if not to your liking.
The separate gain controls in Tri-amp mode will make this much easier to balance out your component SPL limits too.
Swez
Ash on 11/21/2005 17:45:02
You know, it's pretty sad when you have all these different brands on the market, but hardly anyone wants to be a pioneer. This is what separates mere "slice of the pie" companies from those who actually think "out of the box": CREATIVITY & FLEXIBILITY! Not that I'm bashing any certain brand or being demanding, but yet when all you see is one following another in design, you have to wonder "why should I choose brand X for more money?". A "name" perhaps?
After looking at various crossovers from numerous companies from "el cheapo's" to "cream of the crops", I have found that they pretty much are all the same. Slopes, frequency cutoffs, and bass boost (variable/fixed in frequency and gain) mainly were the only things that differed. In my situation where total control of a true 4-way setup is wanted, options are extremely limited.
If any of you guys read this thread, do a search on 4-way crossovers and see what you come up with. Try and remember where true midbass frequencies (not midrange) are and what cutoffs should be used while you do this. If you choose not to, then I will tell you: nothing more than a hyped up 3-way still offering very limited controls. To add to the problem, the price tag tacked on is ridiculous, especially when you haven't really gained any more advantages to most standard 3-ways or worse: features that come on most amps anyway.
After 17 years of being into this hobby, you would expect to see a little more flexibility in keeping up with technology, instead of the same ancient marketing constraints.
swez on 11/21/2005 20:11:08
Would you care for some cheeze and crackers with that whine? LOL
It's a lot of follow the leader here Ash. This is true in most businesses that have been around a while. Problem is, they all look at who's doing what, how big is the pie for a given widget and how much pie can a newcomer snatch off that pie, if they dive into the game. That's what drives a given market.
Brand names are fine, but not the last word. The trick is finding what you really need. Not a 4-way crossover. What you do need is a flexible 3-way crossover for your Comps. The subs will take care of themselves via the sub amp crossover.
Have a few thoughts on how to pull this all together too. Maybe I can catch you on YIM and run a few thoughts across the chalk board. See ya there eh?
Swez
Ash on 11/22/2005 15:50:29
Waaah! Waaah! LOL! Yeah I know, just seems to be not much reasonable help for the creative do-it-yourselfers nowadays. With everything going towards the "all-in-one" packages, they tend to leave out the stuff that really helps. Oh well.
Anyway, what you have in mind, I surely would like to hear. I'm starting to get mental block with all the options that popped up. Thought about the 3-way too, but there seems to be a problem with my plan. Maybe you can clear it up for me and get me motivated again. I'll try and catch ya on IM later this evening. Hard schedule between Thanksgiving grocery shopping, good fishing weather, and chalking up this next design.
Later,
swez on 11/22/2005 19:50:51
Yeah, hectic week here too. I just put in a long day of working outside in pretty chilly conditions. (34 was the high and 25 MPH winds did not help either)
Needless to say, this old body took a good beating in the process. Think I will just go to bed early tonight and we can chat as time permits, later this week. Just not mentally sharp enough at the moment, to give this my best efforts. Yes, it will be challenging... but would a true DIY'er have it any other way?
Later bro,
Swez
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