FIRST OF: (not kissing @$$, just the truth) I have asked questions here before and got the most comphrensive answers from all other forums/friends/webpages combined.
WHAT I HAVE (I have had this for ~6+ months without any problems whatsoever):
1. Infinity component speakers (stock, came with car sounds good to me so didnt upgrade)
1.5. Lanzar 3-way passive x-over for front speakers
2. JL Audio e4300 (200x4 amp, powering above speakers)
3. Yellow Top Battery (cca 650 A, ca 870 A)
4. No "Big 3," just heard of it yesterday
5. 4 gauge wire w/inline fuse (40 amps...i think)
6. 150W Powersupply for PC connected to Distro. Blk.
7. 7" vga monitor being powered from 150 W molex plug
8. I DO NOT HAVE A HEADUNIT, everything is controlled from the VGA touchscreen.
WHAT I WANT NOW:
& WHY: I am tired of turning up my system to squeeze bass out of my 6x9's and it starts to bottom out a little, its sufficient for me but I know its not anything like having subs.
1. Bass
A. not crazy, ill shatter your window and wake up the neighbors a mile away from be bass, but good bass
B. not sure of what SQ and SPL really means, i mean i have read the definition but I have never heard it first hand so no real life experience in differences between the two. I think i'd prefer SQ, as long as it doesnt mean i have to sacrifice too much bass)
I am really really confused on what to brands to get, b/c everything I read reviews on seems to be good so I’d hate to spend more for nothing. On another forum I was recommended to get:
Directed 1100D mono amp (~$190 shipped) (800W rms @ 2Ohm or 1100 W rms @ 1 Ohm)
Or Directed 1500D mono amp (~$185 shipped) (800W rms @ 2Ohm or 1100 W rms @ 1 Ohm)
w/ two of the Alpine 1242D Type-R Subs (~$240 shipped for both) (12” DVC/500W RMS/4 Ohms)
I have also looked at 2x Kicker Comp VR Subs (~$170 shipped for both) (12” DVC/400W RMS/4 Ohms)
I might have wrote too much info., so there isn’t a delay in our conversations I tried to be detailed as possible.
NOW THE QUESTIONS:
1. First off, what do you guys recommend as far the mono amp, I read only good no make that great things about that DIRECTED amp, even though I wanted a JL 500/1 to match my JL e4300 amp, I don’t want to be stupid and get a less powerful amp for twice the cost.
2. Why is the Directed 1500D cheaper than the Directed 1100D? They are on www.ikesound.com
3. Also, on both the Alpine and Kicker subs I only read great reviews, the kicker is cheaper but for some reason I like the brand Alpine more (don’t know why?) Is it worth the $70 extra dollars. PS. I want to use a sealed box to save space in my trunk.
4. Is the 4 gauge wire ok to handle e4300 amp + 1100 watt mono amp + 150 W power supply for PC?
5. If not I guess my first upgrade should be the big 2 along with the HO Alt.? I should install everything then see if the lights are dimming then get the HO Alt, right? I wont be running my system loud most of the time.
I DON’T WANT TO OVERWHELM YOU GUYS WITH THE AMOUNT TO READ SO LET ME CUT IT NOW. I look forward to hearing from as many of you experts as possible, the more people respond the more it reinforces my decision.
THANKSSSSSSSSSS!
Replies (13)
compvr15s on 10/28/2005 00:41:25
ok (spl, sq) sound presure level- hard hitting bass systems, more for the sound and feel of the bass..
sound quality- the bass flows evenly with the rest of speakers in the vehicle, a nice blend of lows, mids, and highs... very clean but still powerful system just not a huge hear me from 3 blocks away bass.
as for the directed amp, have had no personal experience with it but have never heard or read a bad review about it, the JL amp is awesome, very versitile, clean and hands down one of the best amps in its power range(price tends to scare people away.. but this amp is well over 500 watts, have heard of bench tests showing over 650 watts from this bad boy... another nice feature is that it give the rated power from 1.5-4.0 ohms, makes chosing your subs a little easier... if you are going for a system that you will be showing off and you have the extra cash i see no reason why not to go with the jl 500/1. but sure you can get many amps 600-1000 watts for the same price or lower, many of which will work fine in your needs and wants. myself i personally like kicker mono class amps, they give a great amount of power perform to expectation and they stay very cool.
alpine vs kicker subs. here we have sq vs spl. the alpine is a very great sounding sub and still get loud, the kicker sub is not the greatest sounding sub but it will give out massive amounts of bass for its price... i currently own 2 15s and for what they are and price of them im completely satisfied. being placed in the trunk really helps drown out the internal speaker noises... i cant say how well the type r will compare with the compvrs.. but at higher volumes with the same power the alpines are going to sound better.... also have you considered a pair of JL w0 or w3s??? they can keep up with the other two mentioned, another very clean sounding sub...
i would suggest going to 2gauge wiring for the subs as well as the power supply, and use the current 4gauge wire to connect each component to the distrubiton block... i would imagine that a HO alternator would be needed as well. the 1100 class d probably has a fuse rationg of 80-110 right??? and teh e4300 is 40 amps. so that added onto your current autos electrical needs, you are going to be maxing out your alt, more than likely causing it to fail soon in the future... upgrading the big 3 will also help to make sure all the possible power is getting from point A to point B...
others will fill in where i left out or correct any misinfromation here... any other questions just ask. we can also help you choose exactly what options you have for subs/amps. we are here to help people as well as save them money. dont go out and buy the 500 dollar amp if the 250 dollar amp is all you need and want, know what im saying. good luck, hope i didnt confuse you here.
sanbas on 10/28/2005 02:02:29
thanks for the replies, yeah i looked into the JL w0, w3, w7
the w0 and w3 = 125W and 300 W respectively (since they cost as much or more and had lot less RMS i decided not to consider those)
The w7...hahaha the high price turned me away immediately
The JL500/1 with the Alpine Sub (i definetly want the better SQ sub), since they take up to 500 W RMS and i get 2 they will each get only 250-300 W, is that cutting them short of their potential?
Oh, i didnt like your answer of adding another run of 2 gauge wire, I was hoping what I had would work, but if thats what its gonna take.
Going to bed, will be awaiting more replies from other members also tomorrow morning
thanks
compvr15s on 10/28/2005 02:15:00
the power handling is not a real big issue, did you know by doubling your power going from 300 watts to 600 watts will only increase the output of the sub by 3db, not sure about you but i know i would not likely be able to tell the difference.... but another big issue is the enclosure you are going to be using... small sealed box will give the subs the most power handling, a large sealed box will need probably about 75% of the rated power, and a ported box depending on size will only need 50-75% of the rated power, since the sub doesnt get the back pressure it reaches xmax much easier than a sealed box... keep in mind if going ported you will need a subsonic filter to keep the sub from playing tones lower than the port freqs... can damage the sub very quickly....i agree on the price of the w7 but have you ever had the chance to listen to one? i swapped my two 15inch kicker compvrs running off of 2 kicker kx600.1s for the 13w7 in a slot port box running off just on kx600.1 giving it probably 400-500 watts since it was at 3ohms.. the output blew the 2 15s out of the water. i figured there would be no way a 13inch woofer would even come close to a net of 30 inchs of woofer, but it was noticable louder... also you may want to check into adire audio brahma, or RE XXX, have been compared to te w7, both have a higher xmax and both cost alot less. but even just listening to the w7 in the open shop i was amazed at how well it filled the whole front of the shop.
swez on 10/28/2005 15:39:13
A 4 gage wire kit will easily handle 80A of current to a given set of amplifiers. The question is... Will your electrical system have a meltdown if you run a large sub amp? The answer is YES!
That e4300 is rated at a max draw of 40A before the amp fuses blow. In reality, a quick AC voltage check of the amp output voltage, will tell you how many watts the system can produce and how much current it is drawing. (my guess, this amp will draws about 25-30A's when you crank it hard.
Now, let's look at the sub side of this equation. Most Class D sub amps are at least 80% efficient. That means for every 100 watts they consume, they deliver 80 watts of output. Use a Class D amp for your sub system for this very reason.
Also, have a closer look at your electrical system in this car. Find out what the max power (amperage) output of the ALT is and also look at the CCA (Cold Cranking Ampere) rating of the BAT. This will tell you how much amping power the system can support as stock. Most cars need about 40-50A to operate all main systems. Whatever is left, can be used for amps and accessories.
Example: Say you have a 95A ALT here and perhaps a 650 CCA BAT. The car needs ~45A alone to work properly. That leaves you 45A reserve and whatever the system can borrow from the BAT. However, when the BAT becomes a source for additional power, the ALT will take about 10A more from the ALT to replenish itself. Got that so far? This nets ~55A for the car and 40A remaining to power your amps.
As you can plainly see, the e4300 will use say 25A nominal current when you play it hard. That leaves 15A's remaining from the ALT (plus whatever it can borrow from the BAT, to power your sub amp. A sub amp with a draw of say 40A (600 Wrms) will probably work out OK if you upgrade the Big 3 wires and install a high CCA rated BAT. (850 CCA or a bit higher)
If you go much larger in a sub amp, a H.O. ALT will be required.
OK, knowing all that, consider high efficiency subs and a 600 Wrms Class D amp for starters. There will be more than adequate bass available here and it will be clean bass power if you set up the system properly. That JL 500/1 amp would be a great choice if you can find one at the right price. All you need do then, is find a sub or two that mates well to this amp and fabricate an efficient enclosure. (ported boxes are larger, but net addition SPL with same power range to the sub/s)
Are you getting the picture now? Comments?
Swez
sanbas on 10/29/2005 23:10:55
ok so from reading both your replies i am concluding that I HAVE to upgrade electrical components in my car to support the [e4300+1000mono amp + 150 W OPUS psu], since i already have a yellow top deep cycle battery next i need a ~200 A HO Alternator is going to be needed.
You guys think it would be ok to go ahead and purchase the subs and amp and hook it up and see how it does temporarily B/C i wont be playing it loud most of the time...or is that just asking for trouble?
Oh yeah what did u guys think of the directed amp, meanwhile i also saw this hifonics TITAN TX1505D (~220 shipped)...they both seem to have good spec. and not too expensive.
Thanks
swez on 10/30/2005 10:19:41
Prices seem to be erroding on some car audio gear in the latter part of 2005. That's good for buyers right now as many mfg's have bloated inventories and so do their distribution channels. That means blow out prices to move inventory. Take advantage of it.
Yes, you will indeed have a power shortage with amps the size noted above. A 1000 watt amplifier will draw upwards of 65A when it is driven hard. Couple that with your 4 channel JL (30A's) amplifier, this will max out any stock electrical system. Your plan to upgrade the BAT, ALT and Big 3 wiring should resolve that. Dropping to #2 gage wire, will reduce voltage drops on that power line to a minimum.
Directed amps (DEI) are great products. In fact, the whole family of products under that corporate umbrella, are well above average. (PPI, Orion, DEI, A/D/S and Xtreme)
Finally, HiFonics makes some pretty solid amplifiers as well. The Titan is a monster amp with dual 60A fuses. To get the most from it, you'll want a 1 ohm net load. Here are the specs on that model:
Features:
1500 watts RMS @ 1 ohm
1000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms
500 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
1 Ohm stable design (perfect for dual 2 ohm subs)
0.08% THD (very low distortion value)
Class D mono amp
Ultra-Fi MOSFETS
Extreme powerful Power Supply
New ultra efficient design
Hot Illuminated Logo
Mounts comfortably
Fully Adjustable stable bass Crossover system
PWM power
MOSFET Power Supply
Free Remote Bass Boost with LED light on it.
Line Out
Variable Bass Boost @ 18db
Subsonic Filter
Simpatico Coil Design
Line Output for connecting multiple amps
Variable Bass Equalizer
Sub-Sonic Filter
Requires 4 Gauge Power Connectors
S/N ratio: 95 Db
Dual 60 Amp Fuses
Dimensions: 10.4"W x 2.4"H x 17.4"L
When buying high end gear as mentioned, make sure you get a warrantee plan from the seller. The best warrantee plan comes from authorized dealers and sellers. Others that are not "authorized dealers", will generally offer a limited warrantee plan. Some will not offer any plans. Avoid these sellers if you can't affort the repairs out of pocket.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 00:47:01
I buy almost all of my electronics online, usually ebay...no complaints yet.
Well i think i am going to heed you guys advice and not put such a burden on my cars electrical system, instead of upgrading and spending more $$$ i am gonig to get a less powerful system and save $$$ AND since I am almost satisfied with my car audio system even without a sub, I am going to just get 1x 12" Alpine sub (500W 4 Ohm DVC) along with the Alpine MRD-M605 mono amp (400rms @ 2ohm).
Thanks for the help so far. This new setup shouldnt be a problem on a 4 Gauge wire and 110 A alternator...right?
BTW how should i place the sealed box. In the turnk or in the trunk facing the cabin, between the rear seat arm rest? Currently my trunk is sealed off from the cabin with a sturdy piece of sheetmetal, SO, with the 2nd choice i'll have to cut a 12" to 15" diameter in that sheetmetal.
I am thinking the 2nd way would sound better with only one 12" sub?
thanks so far!
swez on 11/1/2005 10:13:01
You might just pull this one off if you upgrade the Big 3 wires. Use #4 gage wire here for all connections. Since they are short runs, should be fine.
Sub placement: Most sedans sound best with the sub aiming at the rear bumper. You can try moving the box from tight against the rear seat backs to middle of the trunk. A few guys I know, have reported very good results with shifting the box location a few inches at a time.
Does either of your rear seats fold down to allow for long cargo items to be carried? If yes, try that first. Most guys report a big improvement in bass SPL when they flip down a seat.
If you make a pass through hole from the trunk to inside cabin, you can expect a noticable increase in cabin bass performance. One of my friends did this against the recommendations from others. He found a gain of about +6dB in bass to the main cabin. This was done by cutting metal out of the rear parcel shelf. The only drawback he noticed, was the carpeting would flap a good deal as bass waves passed through it. A metal grill cover would solve that issue.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 15:06:44
no my rear seats dont fold down and right behind it is a solid piece of sheetmetal seperating the cabin & seat from the trunk.
What carpeting are u talking about, I dont think ill have that problem.
Ill post some pics. after work.
thanks
swez on 11/1/2005 16:47:02
The carpeting I had noted, covered the rear decking at the base of the rear window. (parcel shelf) This fellow I mentioned, cut a rectangular hole out of the rear decking and replaced the carpet that covered same. His bass was so strong with a pair of SWR 10's and the Alpine MRP-M350, his carpeting would flutter violently. I think he eventually braced it in some way to secure the carpet adequately. hehe
In your case, having an opening between the seats could prove ideal. The trick will be to make it look professionsal when done. Rather then cut the plate out completely, consider boring a series of 1" holes in that plate and cover it on the interior side with matching carpet or a very opaque grill cloth.
NOTE: If you do this, experiment with the sub enclosure location in the trunk. My friend found that if he set the sub box at midpoint in the trunk, his bass performance was notably better then when butted up against the rear seat backs.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 22:07:45
Here are some pics for u guys of my current setup...this is just temporary unitl i get the sub and mono amp, still decided how to set that up.
Picture 1 -- The Dash of my car...just needs BASSS
Picture 2 -- is of my trunk, you can see the piece of sheetmetal seperating cabin from trunk
Picture 3 -- my current temp. setup (the PC and JL 4-ch amp)
Picture 4 -- place where I will have to cut hole for sub, if i decide to point the woofer towards the cabin, behind the plastic is the sheetmetal
Oh, that a good idea of cutting the holes on the sheetmetal itself, as long as it doesnt rattle might look good. So, i guess there is no exact answer other then just trying it myself...huh?
thanks swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 23:01:21
well i ran across this while reading more on the subwoofer position. I am assuming that crutchfield does there research before publishing such info. I guess this answers the questions for me.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUzNUXC131W/tech/kb138.html
also this has more detail
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUzNUXC131W/tech/kb332.html
both say for best "boom" its best to face subs towards the bumper...hmmm.
Ill just have to try it myself both ways and see the difference...will let u guys know in a month or so when i get my stuff.
Thanks
swez on 11/2/2005 08:48:51
OK, I see the pictures and yes, using that space where the rear seat arm rest drops down looks like a winner. However, you may have to relocate (or modify) your amp rack and other electronics to keep that space open.
One possible option would be to mount the rack with an airgap of about 8-12 inches away from the back seat structure. This will allow bass to flow behind it and into the vent you are planning to use.
Also, as mentioned before, a series of 1" holes (metal cutting hole saw)
http://www.boschtools.com/accessories/accessories-detail.htm?H=176227&G=54762
in that back panel should provide adequate venting space for your bass to come into the cabin. Depending on the metal thickness of that panel, you can drill it with a bimetal hole saw.
I would suggest dressing things up with an 8-10" diameter grill plate. You'll have to cut some of the leather/vinyl out so air will flow freely into the cabin. Something like this will do nicely:
8" version: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-424
10" version: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-426
These grills and trim rings can be painted to blend in with interior colors. A set of sheet metal screws are all that will be needed to attach the trim mounting ring. The grill snaps over the trim ring. To hide the holes you will be cutting, use a "cut to fit" piece of 1/8" padding foam. This needs to be very porous to allow sound to pass through it and can also be spray painted (opaque) to hide the holes.
Finally, as I said earlier, best bass will be noted by firing the subs at the rear bumper. This is true in all sedan/trunk systems. It also works well in SUV's and hatchback designs. (did you not believe me? ) hehe
Swez
WHAT I HAVE (I have had this for ~6+ months without any problems whatsoever):
1. Infinity component speakers (stock, came with car sounds good to me so didnt upgrade)
1.5. Lanzar 3-way passive x-over for front speakers
2. JL Audio e4300 (200x4 amp, powering above speakers)
3. Yellow Top Battery (cca 650 A, ca 870 A)
4. No "Big 3," just heard of it yesterday
5. 4 gauge wire w/inline fuse (40 amps...i think)
6. 150W Powersupply for PC connected to Distro. Blk.
7. 7" vga monitor being powered from 150 W molex plug
8. I DO NOT HAVE A HEADUNIT, everything is controlled from the VGA touchscreen.
WHAT I WANT NOW:
& WHY: I am tired of turning up my system to squeeze bass out of my 6x9's and it starts to bottom out a little, its sufficient for me but I know its not anything like having subs.
1. Bass
A. not crazy, ill shatter your window and wake up the neighbors a mile away from be bass, but good bass
B. not sure of what SQ and SPL really means, i mean i have read the definition but I have never heard it first hand so no real life experience in differences between the two. I think i'd prefer SQ, as long as it doesnt mean i have to sacrifice too much bass)
I am really really confused on what to brands to get, b/c everything I read reviews on seems to be good so I’d hate to spend more for nothing. On another forum I was recommended to get:
Directed 1100D mono amp (~$190 shipped) (800W rms @ 2Ohm or 1100 W rms @ 1 Ohm)
Or Directed 1500D mono amp (~$185 shipped) (800W rms @ 2Ohm or 1100 W rms @ 1 Ohm)
w/ two of the Alpine 1242D Type-R Subs (~$240 shipped for both) (12” DVC/500W RMS/4 Ohms)
I have also looked at 2x Kicker Comp VR Subs (~$170 shipped for both) (12” DVC/400W RMS/4 Ohms)
I might have wrote too much info., so there isn’t a delay in our conversations I tried to be detailed as possible.
NOW THE QUESTIONS:
1. First off, what do you guys recommend as far the mono amp, I read only good no make that great things about that DIRECTED amp, even though I wanted a JL 500/1 to match my JL e4300 amp, I don’t want to be stupid and get a less powerful amp for twice the cost.
2. Why is the Directed 1500D cheaper than the Directed 1100D? They are on www.ikesound.com
3. Also, on both the Alpine and Kicker subs I only read great reviews, the kicker is cheaper but for some reason I like the brand Alpine more (don’t know why?) Is it worth the $70 extra dollars. PS. I want to use a sealed box to save space in my trunk.
4. Is the 4 gauge wire ok to handle e4300 amp + 1100 watt mono amp + 150 W power supply for PC?
5. If not I guess my first upgrade should be the big 2 along with the HO Alt.? I should install everything then see if the lights are dimming then get the HO Alt, right? I wont be running my system loud most of the time.
I DON’T WANT TO OVERWHELM YOU GUYS WITH THE AMOUNT TO READ SO LET ME CUT IT NOW. I look forward to hearing from as many of you experts as possible, the more people respond the more it reinforces my decision.
THANKSSSSSSSSSS!
Replies (13)
compvr15s on 10/28/2005 00:41:25
ok (spl, sq) sound presure level- hard hitting bass systems, more for the sound and feel of the bass..
sound quality- the bass flows evenly with the rest of speakers in the vehicle, a nice blend of lows, mids, and highs... very clean but still powerful system just not a huge hear me from 3 blocks away bass.
as for the directed amp, have had no personal experience with it but have never heard or read a bad review about it, the JL amp is awesome, very versitile, clean and hands down one of the best amps in its power range(price tends to scare people away.. but this amp is well over 500 watts, have heard of bench tests showing over 650 watts from this bad boy... another nice feature is that it give the rated power from 1.5-4.0 ohms, makes chosing your subs a little easier... if you are going for a system that you will be showing off and you have the extra cash i see no reason why not to go with the jl 500/1. but sure you can get many amps 600-1000 watts for the same price or lower, many of which will work fine in your needs and wants. myself i personally like kicker mono class amps, they give a great amount of power perform to expectation and they stay very cool.
alpine vs kicker subs. here we have sq vs spl. the alpine is a very great sounding sub and still get loud, the kicker sub is not the greatest sounding sub but it will give out massive amounts of bass for its price... i currently own 2 15s and for what they are and price of them im completely satisfied. being placed in the trunk really helps drown out the internal speaker noises... i cant say how well the type r will compare with the compvrs.. but at higher volumes with the same power the alpines are going to sound better.... also have you considered a pair of JL w0 or w3s??? they can keep up with the other two mentioned, another very clean sounding sub...
i would suggest going to 2gauge wiring for the subs as well as the power supply, and use the current 4gauge wire to connect each component to the distrubiton block... i would imagine that a HO alternator would be needed as well. the 1100 class d probably has a fuse rationg of 80-110 right??? and teh e4300 is 40 amps. so that added onto your current autos electrical needs, you are going to be maxing out your alt, more than likely causing it to fail soon in the future... upgrading the big 3 will also help to make sure all the possible power is getting from point A to point B...
others will fill in where i left out or correct any misinfromation here... any other questions just ask. we can also help you choose exactly what options you have for subs/amps. we are here to help people as well as save them money. dont go out and buy the 500 dollar amp if the 250 dollar amp is all you need and want, know what im saying. good luck, hope i didnt confuse you here.
sanbas on 10/28/2005 02:02:29
thanks for the replies, yeah i looked into the JL w0, w3, w7
the w0 and w3 = 125W and 300 W respectively (since they cost as much or more and had lot less RMS i decided not to consider those)
The w7...hahaha the high price turned me away immediately
The JL500/1 with the Alpine Sub (i definetly want the better SQ sub), since they take up to 500 W RMS and i get 2 they will each get only 250-300 W, is that cutting them short of their potential?
Oh, i didnt like your answer of adding another run of 2 gauge wire, I was hoping what I had would work, but if thats what its gonna take.
Going to bed, will be awaiting more replies from other members also tomorrow morning
thanks
compvr15s on 10/28/2005 02:15:00
the power handling is not a real big issue, did you know by doubling your power going from 300 watts to 600 watts will only increase the output of the sub by 3db, not sure about you but i know i would not likely be able to tell the difference.... but another big issue is the enclosure you are going to be using... small sealed box will give the subs the most power handling, a large sealed box will need probably about 75% of the rated power, and a ported box depending on size will only need 50-75% of the rated power, since the sub doesnt get the back pressure it reaches xmax much easier than a sealed box... keep in mind if going ported you will need a subsonic filter to keep the sub from playing tones lower than the port freqs... can damage the sub very quickly....i agree on the price of the w7 but have you ever had the chance to listen to one? i swapped my two 15inch kicker compvrs running off of 2 kicker kx600.1s for the 13w7 in a slot port box running off just on kx600.1 giving it probably 400-500 watts since it was at 3ohms.. the output blew the 2 15s out of the water. i figured there would be no way a 13inch woofer would even come close to a net of 30 inchs of woofer, but it was noticable louder... also you may want to check into adire audio brahma, or RE XXX, have been compared to te w7, both have a higher xmax and both cost alot less. but even just listening to the w7 in the open shop i was amazed at how well it filled the whole front of the shop.
swez on 10/28/2005 15:39:13
A 4 gage wire kit will easily handle 80A of current to a given set of amplifiers. The question is... Will your electrical system have a meltdown if you run a large sub amp? The answer is YES!
That e4300 is rated at a max draw of 40A before the amp fuses blow. In reality, a quick AC voltage check of the amp output voltage, will tell you how many watts the system can produce and how much current it is drawing. (my guess, this amp will draws about 25-30A's when you crank it hard.
Now, let's look at the sub side of this equation. Most Class D sub amps are at least 80% efficient. That means for every 100 watts they consume, they deliver 80 watts of output. Use a Class D amp for your sub system for this very reason.
Also, have a closer look at your electrical system in this car. Find out what the max power (amperage) output of the ALT is and also look at the CCA (Cold Cranking Ampere) rating of the BAT. This will tell you how much amping power the system can support as stock. Most cars need about 40-50A to operate all main systems. Whatever is left, can be used for amps and accessories.
Example: Say you have a 95A ALT here and perhaps a 650 CCA BAT. The car needs ~45A alone to work properly. That leaves you 45A reserve and whatever the system can borrow from the BAT. However, when the BAT becomes a source for additional power, the ALT will take about 10A more from the ALT to replenish itself. Got that so far? This nets ~55A for the car and 40A remaining to power your amps.
As you can plainly see, the e4300 will use say 25A nominal current when you play it hard. That leaves 15A's remaining from the ALT (plus whatever it can borrow from the BAT, to power your sub amp. A sub amp with a draw of say 40A (600 Wrms) will probably work out OK if you upgrade the Big 3 wires and install a high CCA rated BAT. (850 CCA or a bit higher)
If you go much larger in a sub amp, a H.O. ALT will be required.
OK, knowing all that, consider high efficiency subs and a 600 Wrms Class D amp for starters. There will be more than adequate bass available here and it will be clean bass power if you set up the system properly. That JL 500/1 amp would be a great choice if you can find one at the right price. All you need do then, is find a sub or two that mates well to this amp and fabricate an efficient enclosure. (ported boxes are larger, but net addition SPL with same power range to the sub/s)
Are you getting the picture now? Comments?
Swez
sanbas on 10/29/2005 23:10:55
ok so from reading both your replies i am concluding that I HAVE to upgrade electrical components in my car to support the [e4300+1000mono amp + 150 W OPUS psu], since i already have a yellow top deep cycle battery next i need a ~200 A HO Alternator is going to be needed.
You guys think it would be ok to go ahead and purchase the subs and amp and hook it up and see how it does temporarily B/C i wont be playing it loud most of the time...or is that just asking for trouble?
Oh yeah what did u guys think of the directed amp, meanwhile i also saw this hifonics TITAN TX1505D (~220 shipped)...they both seem to have good spec. and not too expensive.
Thanks
swez on 10/30/2005 10:19:41
Prices seem to be erroding on some car audio gear in the latter part of 2005. That's good for buyers right now as many mfg's have bloated inventories and so do their distribution channels. That means blow out prices to move inventory. Take advantage of it.
Yes, you will indeed have a power shortage with amps the size noted above. A 1000 watt amplifier will draw upwards of 65A when it is driven hard. Couple that with your 4 channel JL (30A's) amplifier, this will max out any stock electrical system. Your plan to upgrade the BAT, ALT and Big 3 wiring should resolve that. Dropping to #2 gage wire, will reduce voltage drops on that power line to a minimum.
Directed amps (DEI) are great products. In fact, the whole family of products under that corporate umbrella, are well above average. (PPI, Orion, DEI, A/D/S and Xtreme)
Finally, HiFonics makes some pretty solid amplifiers as well. The Titan is a monster amp with dual 60A fuses. To get the most from it, you'll want a 1 ohm net load. Here are the specs on that model:
Features:
1500 watts RMS @ 1 ohm
1000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms
500 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
1 Ohm stable design (perfect for dual 2 ohm subs)
0.08% THD (very low distortion value)
Class D mono amp
Ultra-Fi MOSFETS
Extreme powerful Power Supply
New ultra efficient design
Hot Illuminated Logo
Mounts comfortably
Fully Adjustable stable bass Crossover system
PWM power
MOSFET Power Supply
Free Remote Bass Boost with LED light on it.
Line Out
Variable Bass Boost @ 18db
Subsonic Filter
Simpatico Coil Design
Line Output for connecting multiple amps
Variable Bass Equalizer
Sub-Sonic Filter
Requires 4 Gauge Power Connectors
S/N ratio: 95 Db
Dual 60 Amp Fuses
Dimensions: 10.4"W x 2.4"H x 17.4"L
When buying high end gear as mentioned, make sure you get a warrantee plan from the seller. The best warrantee plan comes from authorized dealers and sellers. Others that are not "authorized dealers", will generally offer a limited warrantee plan. Some will not offer any plans. Avoid these sellers if you can't affort the repairs out of pocket.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 00:47:01
I buy almost all of my electronics online, usually ebay...no complaints yet.
Well i think i am going to heed you guys advice and not put such a burden on my cars electrical system, instead of upgrading and spending more $$$ i am gonig to get a less powerful system and save $$$ AND since I am almost satisfied with my car audio system even without a sub, I am going to just get 1x 12" Alpine sub (500W 4 Ohm DVC) along with the Alpine MRD-M605 mono amp (400rms @ 2ohm).
Thanks for the help so far. This new setup shouldnt be a problem on a 4 Gauge wire and 110 A alternator...right?
BTW how should i place the sealed box. In the turnk or in the trunk facing the cabin, between the rear seat arm rest? Currently my trunk is sealed off from the cabin with a sturdy piece of sheetmetal, SO, with the 2nd choice i'll have to cut a 12" to 15" diameter in that sheetmetal.
I am thinking the 2nd way would sound better with only one 12" sub?
thanks so far!
swez on 11/1/2005 10:13:01
You might just pull this one off if you upgrade the Big 3 wires. Use #4 gage wire here for all connections. Since they are short runs, should be fine.
Sub placement: Most sedans sound best with the sub aiming at the rear bumper. You can try moving the box from tight against the rear seat backs to middle of the trunk. A few guys I know, have reported very good results with shifting the box location a few inches at a time.
Does either of your rear seats fold down to allow for long cargo items to be carried? If yes, try that first. Most guys report a big improvement in bass SPL when they flip down a seat.
If you make a pass through hole from the trunk to inside cabin, you can expect a noticable increase in cabin bass performance. One of my friends did this against the recommendations from others. He found a gain of about +6dB in bass to the main cabin. This was done by cutting metal out of the rear parcel shelf. The only drawback he noticed, was the carpeting would flap a good deal as bass waves passed through it. A metal grill cover would solve that issue.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 15:06:44
no my rear seats dont fold down and right behind it is a solid piece of sheetmetal seperating the cabin & seat from the trunk.
What carpeting are u talking about, I dont think ill have that problem.
Ill post some pics. after work.
thanks
swez on 11/1/2005 16:47:02
The carpeting I had noted, covered the rear decking at the base of the rear window. (parcel shelf) This fellow I mentioned, cut a rectangular hole out of the rear decking and replaced the carpet that covered same. His bass was so strong with a pair of SWR 10's and the Alpine MRP-M350, his carpeting would flutter violently. I think he eventually braced it in some way to secure the carpet adequately. hehe
In your case, having an opening between the seats could prove ideal. The trick will be to make it look professionsal when done. Rather then cut the plate out completely, consider boring a series of 1" holes in that plate and cover it on the interior side with matching carpet or a very opaque grill cloth.
NOTE: If you do this, experiment with the sub enclosure location in the trunk. My friend found that if he set the sub box at midpoint in the trunk, his bass performance was notably better then when butted up against the rear seat backs.
Swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 22:07:45
Here are some pics for u guys of my current setup...this is just temporary unitl i get the sub and mono amp, still decided how to set that up.
Picture 1 -- The Dash of my car...just needs BASSS
Picture 2 -- is of my trunk, you can see the piece of sheetmetal seperating cabin from trunk
Picture 3 -- my current temp. setup (the PC and JL 4-ch amp)
Picture 4 -- place where I will have to cut hole for sub, if i decide to point the woofer towards the cabin, behind the plastic is the sheetmetal
Oh, that a good idea of cutting the holes on the sheetmetal itself, as long as it doesnt rattle might look good. So, i guess there is no exact answer other then just trying it myself...huh?
thanks swez
sanbas on 11/1/2005 23:01:21
well i ran across this while reading more on the subwoofer position. I am assuming that crutchfield does there research before publishing such info. I guess this answers the questions for me.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUzNUXC131W/tech/kb138.html
also this has more detail
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wUzNUXC131W/tech/kb332.html
both say for best "boom" its best to face subs towards the bumper...hmmm.
Ill just have to try it myself both ways and see the difference...will let u guys know in a month or so when i get my stuff.
Thanks
swez on 11/2/2005 08:48:51
OK, I see the pictures and yes, using that space where the rear seat arm rest drops down looks like a winner. However, you may have to relocate (or modify) your amp rack and other electronics to keep that space open.
One possible option would be to mount the rack with an airgap of about 8-12 inches away from the back seat structure. This will allow bass to flow behind it and into the vent you are planning to use.
Also, as mentioned before, a series of 1" holes (metal cutting hole saw)
http://www.boschtools.com/accessories/accessories-detail.htm?H=176227&G=54762
in that back panel should provide adequate venting space for your bass to come into the cabin. Depending on the metal thickness of that panel, you can drill it with a bimetal hole saw.
I would suggest dressing things up with an 8-10" diameter grill plate. You'll have to cut some of the leather/vinyl out so air will flow freely into the cabin. Something like this will do nicely:
8" version: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-424
10" version: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-426
These grills and trim rings can be painted to blend in with interior colors. A set of sheet metal screws are all that will be needed to attach the trim mounting ring. The grill snaps over the trim ring. To hide the holes you will be cutting, use a "cut to fit" piece of 1/8" padding foam. This needs to be very porous to allow sound to pass through it and can also be spray painted (opaque) to hide the holes.
Finally, as I said earlier, best bass will be noted by firing the subs at the rear bumper. This is true in all sedan/trunk systems. It also works well in SUV's and hatchback designs. (did you not believe me? ) hehe
Swez
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