Subs comparable to JL 12w6v2's w/o all the dough?!?!?

I'm looking at getting two 12" JL 12w6v2's simply due to what a hard hitting and all-around awesome sub they are (probably running about 400-500 watts RMS to each). Problem is they're so much $$$ and I'm thinking largely I'm just paying for the name brand (just so I can say "hey I got 2 12" JL's in the back"). I'm wondering what other companies out there make a comparable sub to these but with a more reasonable cost. Thanks for the help!

-Mike-

Replies (103)

xplicitblitzboi on 07/23/2003 14:21:36
3 words...adire audio shiva

Swez on 07/23/2003 20:24:18
Yeah, depending on the amp you have now, Adire Shive Mark III is a very good sub for $125.00 ea. They look "plain Jane" to be sure, but for high power handling and very good SQ.... hard to beat... sealed or ported.

Here's a link to review them: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/shiva.htm

Also, built a custom enclosure for a guy last fall using a pair of these and I was very impressed with the quality and performance of such a modest looking sub. Threw them 600 RMS for a short test before install and even though they had not been broken in yet... I was very pleased and so was the client.

Figure about 1.0 - 1.25 cf/sub sealed (internal dimension) There are also box recommendations on the site for ported applications as well.

Swez

PS Some guys really like Elemental Designs subs too. Similar priced, well designed and some guys really like them too.

Have a look: http://www.edesignaudio.com/ep/techpapers.htm

ILikeBass on 07/23/2003 23:10:05
I really like IDQ's.

But my favorite sub so far, that hits hard as hell, that i am now running is Onyx Audio LSv.2D4's i am 2 12's and let me tell ya it is bad ass. I love it. Check out Onyxaudio.com and take a look at them. They are quite possible the best sub i have ever used, and i am comparing that to the Brahma as well as the W7. But that is a matter of prefference. I have a competition comming up this Saturday i will be posting my numbers for it. Let me tell ya it is pretty damn loud, i havn't heard anyone around me louder so that's saying something.

Tray on 07/24/2003 10:28:02
If you're looking for some monster SPL, for low cost, check out Earthquake DBX.

Only bad part is, they need quite a bit of space, but man oh man, the sound is incredible.

Swez on 07/25/2003 10:00:32
OK, after looking at products mentioned, what have you concluded?

Swez

mJonesie on 07/25/2003 12:54:25
Wow ya know Swez,honestly, I still have no clue. Sounds like a lot of different opinions. One thing that makes me a little nervous is that generally I have never heard of most of the companies you guys have mentioned. I mean naturally I'm familiar with the big guys (JL, Rockford Fosgate, Alipne, etc.) but a lot of these I have no idea and many seem to only be available for purchase directly from their site, not from any retail store (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your outlook of things). One thing is I want to hopefully be able to put the subs underneath my seat so as to allow me to keep my back seat available and save on the install cost, so that is a deciphering factor as well.

Generally though, I just don't know one company from the other and with so many varied opinions it's rather difficult to decide. Ideas anyone?!?!? (help!!!!)

-Mike-

Buickman94 on 07/25/2003 13:38:20
giving us an idea of what kind of budget you have would help alot.

Swez on 07/25/2003 18:15:09
All subs mentioned are very good products. But as you say, no experience with them might make you leary of buying online and not hearing them in a demo first. A valid concern!

You say mounting under the rear seat huh? What kind of dimensions are you looking at here for the enclosure? H, W & D

Also, along with budget info, space available and type of music you like best , will help us guide you along.

Buying from the big names at RETAIL prices are fine for those who are not interested in shopping or research. But if you want value, performance and a good price, you will find a number of names out there that are SUPERIOR in performance and sonic quality, for a fraction of the cost of big retail names.

Afterall, someone has to pay those huge advertising budgets from the big name brands and the inventory carrying costs of large retail chains that sell but don't service as well as they'd like you to believe. There is no service except to swap for same, upgrade to more expensive product or get a store credit.

FYI: I worked retail car audio for moderate sized chain for a very short time. Once I figured out that all the Manager and Salesmen cared about, is selling stuff (they have on hand) for the highest prices they could get, sell you an extended warrantee and then have our shop install it all... we made good money... at the customers expense.

In short.... don't go there as I quit after a few weeks as my personal integrity was worth far more to me than a few lousy bucks in commissions and "spiffs"... then truly serving the customer well... A-Z.

You can put your trust in this group.... we balance each other well and are here to help you get the best products at the best prices which equal a real value! We won't steer you wrong!

Swez

mJonesie on 07/26/2003 16:47:18
Well as far as budget goes, obviously it's a concern or I would've just shot in some w6v2's and called it good. Overall I'm looking at sticking in the $2000 or under price range as far as all-inclusive and installed (I have NO mechanical knowledge whatsoever of car audio install so I'm probably looking at just having the shop do that end of it). That $2000 includes either Focal Polyglass or Boston Pro series speakers (6.5" 2-way comps. in the front, 5.25" coaxials in the back), one amp for my speakers, one my amp for my subs, a reasonably priced deck (just so it allows me to control my bass functions), 2 12" subs, a box, and (hopefully) Dynamat, as well as having this all installed. As far as amps I was thinking Rockford Fosgate Power series?!?! They seem to be reasonable and carry good power. Unless you guys recommend otherwise....

As far as space limitations, I do not know the exact dimensions of the back seat, but keeping in mind it's a pickup truck, it's not very large. I DO know I was told there was no way I could fit 2 12" JL w6v2's under there. 10's were no problem I was told. I don't know if 12's are all universal, or if just because I can't fit 2 12" JL's that doesn't necessarily mean I can't fit another brand of 12's under there, as I said, completely amateur on that end of things. The MAIN reason I'm thinking of just sticking the subs under there is the cost of installation to pull the back seat. Because once you do that you have the conern of making it look like it "belongs" there if you know what I mean. Taking out the back seat and just plopping a box on the ground PROBABLY would be more of an eye sore then anything. But as I said: ideas, ideas, and more ideas are appreciated!!!

-Mike-

Swez on 07/27/2003 00:48:37
OK, let's take this in stages as there are many things to consider. Price is somewhat fixed and a good HU will set you back ~$350.00 or so. Alpine and Pioneer are very good choices and 3rd might be Clarion. Crutchfield .com has a very good selection to look at, but their prices are a tad high. A little web shopping will net a good HU w/o the hefty prices on retail.

As for interior speakers... Focal, Boston, Polks, CDT and Infinity all have very good lines, depending on power and price you wish to pay here. Frankly, the speakers are the heart of a good system. The best you can manage in your budget range is the choice you will opt for. As for amping power 50-75 watts RMS/ch., or a tad higher is plenty.

As for subs and amp... depends on how much bass you desire and how may watts of amping power your electricals can support. A
pair of 10's and a 500-600 watt RMS (Class D) sub amp are plenty of bass power. We just need to know how much space you have under the rear seats, to get a good result. Here, a custom sealed enclosure might be a good option like the MTX Thunderform series for your vehicle.

I am NOT recommending MTX subs per-se, but the preform enclosure may meet your needs wery well.

Again, a few good toys now, and add the rest later, are not a bad strategy.

Comments?

Swez

mJonesie on 07/27/2003 11:46:04
Ok so what exactly all do I need to measure to really figure out what we have to work with here? I'm thinking really my only limitation will be heighth with the back seat.

Now Swez, you're recommending HU subs now? Are you thinking the before-mentioned subs are not going to work out as well for me now or are you just saying this is another option to look at?

I'm not sure how my eletrical system will handle all the power, but I was looking at giving my subs a total of about 1000 watts, 1200 MAX. I was thinking of going with 12's over 10's as I've heard from other sources that if I want real good bass I'll most likely be much more satisified with the 12's. As far as my music habits are concerned, I listen to a WIDE of variety of music, from rap and r&b to punk rock and country so it'll be a pretty big mix going into it.

Also, will the Rockord Fosgate Power series be a good fit for me or do you recommend otherwise?

-Mike-

Swez on 07/27/2003 13:34:44
Well, let's start out with identifying your present electrical performance. Most stock ALT will do 85-100A, depending on the package. You need to find out what the stock ALT power output is now... a call to the dealership or a good auto parts store will give you stop and upgrade options and prices.

Then , look at the current battery you have. Stock is ~650-750 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps). Instead of SURGE CAPS, a more potent battery and wiring will help with larger amp installs. If you plan to use a large sub amp, (>800 RMS) a larger capacity battery will help a lot.

As for subs, a pair of 12's will usually take more power than 10's... but it really depends on the sub, amp and enclosure design. A set of 12's requires a bit more enclosure space, dependimg on the sub used and the enclosure space available.

Thunderforms for Dodge Ram:
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-Q8GrPhiIcx1/ProdView.asp?s=0&cc=01&c=10&g=841&I=236DRX20UC

This is one option with dual 10's... but there are more options if you go custom.

More later as I have to run for now!

Swez

jaharrow on 07/29/2003 02:13:16
mJonesie---email me after you decide what you want...i can get you the stuff for a good price...jaharrow@pacbell.net

Swez on 07/29/2003 08:39:23
"Now Swez, you're recommending HU subs now?" Not quite. HU is not a sub, it's your stereo system... AM/FM/CD/ MP3 etc.

As for sub intstall phase, a pair if 10's in the proper airspace will be a good choice. I have a pair of 10's (trrunk mounted Coupe) and only 300 RMS worth of bass power and these give very good lows due to the custom enclosure design (made my own). Can hit low 130's dB with the sub/amp combo now... but have ~95dB in front/rear stages. A bit bass heavy, but can easily adjust the amount of sub power I desire off the HU and EQ.

In your case, it does sound like you'll be best off noting the Height restrictions under the rear seats. Knowing the maximum height you can manage, as well as depth and width dimensions will be most helpful in figuring out what size the enclosure will work best. I would hope you have at least 8-9" height under the rear seats? If not, some tricks may be needed to fit a good enclosure there.

Some have raised the seats a few inches with new mounting hardware while other used various enclosure tricks (side firing) designs to make it all come together.

How does this sound to you so far? Is this making more sense now? Pretty complicated at first.... but gets easier once the key parameters are nailed down tight.

Swez

mJonesie on 08/1/2003 19:07:35
Well the MAIN reason I was looking at 12's over 10's is that I have heard from some people who have tried both that they were happier with the 12's. Also, just the pure fact of being able to hit the real lows. From what I understand --that being very little-- 12's hit harder and lower but 10's are more responsive. I haven't been in TOO many vehicles with systems and don't really know which I would prefer. I can tell you I listen to a WIDE variety of music, but with my new system will probably stick to mosly rap and r&b. But I'm open to 10's if that would possibly be a better fit for me (I know it will space-wise but I'm wondering overall).

Now as far as "HU" it is a term I'm rather unfamiliar with but it sounds like it mostly involves the deck itself. Initially until I get the money (and the product is released) I will be getting just an average deck just so it has the functions of controlling my bass as needs be. What I REALLY want to get when it comes out is that new Kenwood DVD in-dash deck, the bigger brother to the already released KVT-911. I figure that should be able to handle anything I can give it and then some.

So that's where I'm at right now.

-Mike-

Swez on 08/1/2003 19:38:24
OK, HU means head Unit... Ie: Deck, source, radio, stereo etc. It's shorter to say and write and after you get used to it, will be a new work in your text.

Now, i many cases, 12" subs have an advantage over 10" subs. They can take more power, deliver slightly higher SPL and go a bit lower than a 10 of same make and model. The main reason many use 10's, are lack of space for the enclosure size required by most 12's.

In your case, space is definitely an issue... but you also want the deep lows and adequate power handling for the amp choosen. The way the speaker is designed and how well mated to the enclosure it is, will determine the amount of deep low bass energy you will get from the system.

What you mentioned earlier on 10's being more punchy and 12's going deeper is true in very generic terms. But not the whole story... it's the combination of sub used and box design that makes all the difference.

Who makes a good 10" sub? (Tubbies or Subway offer 6 & 12" subs) sorry... could not resist that one... GRIN

JL
Eclipse
HiFonics
Phoenix Gold
MA Audio
Audiobahn
Infinity (Reference, Kappa or Kappa Perfect)
Rockford Fosgate

One thing to look at, are the specs of a sub. One thing that you'll note is something called Fs or Fo. This is the resonant frequency a sub can reproduce in a free air. (no enclosure)

If you compared 10's vs 12's of a quality brand sub, you'll find some that go as low as 18-23 Hz. The Fs span between the 10" and the 12" (same series and maker) will be ~3-5 Hz or less. If you want a deep playing sub, look for Fs specs below ~25 Hz. Most folks cannot hear a 25 Hz test tone as much as they feel it.... until you pour some power into the sub.

Finally, think about the type of amp you plan to use for your subs. Most use either Class A/B , 2/4 channel amps or Class Mono amps. There are advanatages to both... but for most car applications where we need high efficiency output and minimal power draw, the class D MONO amp is a good choice with high efficiency (80-90%) as oppossed to Class A/B amps that are 50-60% efficient.

Example: Efficiency comparison
Given: 500 watt RMS amp (bridged MONO)

Class A/B (2 channel w/ 55% eff. rating; 4 ohm load min.)
Power draw: ~910 watts or (910/13.0 = 70A draw)

Class D: MONO (1 channel, 1-2 ohms loads, 85% eff.)
Power draw: ~588 watts or (588/13 = 45A draw

Big difference in current consumption and same power power output huh? Also, Class D amps are cheaper as they do not have all the extra circuits needed in a 2/4 channel amp. Mono amps are about raw power to subs and require less circuits.. so they are generally cheaper to make and therefore buy. Also, many Class D amps can take advantage of low ohm sub applications whereby Clss A/B amps are limited to 2 ohms/ch., in stereo mode or 4 ohms when bridged. The only exception are High Current Comps amps which can do under 1 ohm loads... but pull huge amount of amperes at high output.

OK, have given you a 4 week course in summary form. It may be a large amount to digest.. but you seem to be a pretty bright guy, so chew on this a bit... before taking the next step.... picking an amp and complimentary subs.

Once we have your dimensional limits for the enclosure, then subs and amp can be reviewed and move things along.

Hope this helps more than confuse,

Swez

baine on 08/2/2003 00:32:19
You know you could do the install your self if you just read the help pages and save yourself some cash . Pros generaly ( cant spell ) charge 35-50 per item you have them do ( thats if you buy there stuff) It gets pricey if you bring them stuff to put in and then let them do it . Also the pros where I live are not very good , had them take out a system (before I was brave nuff to do it my self ) and they just cut wires!!! I could have done that . I am not trying to steer you away from having someone do it just know that you can do it ,if you can use a tool or two and read up before you do it . If you do go to the pros to have it installed go every where and get the best price that you can .

GrammarPolice on 08/3/2003 17:42:24
I am new here, but I would just like to add my two cents about MA Audio subs. I just purchased 2 MA Audio subs, MA12XE's. They are MA Audio's middle of the line I guess, and they are rated for 350W RMS (700W MAX). They only cost me $50 CAD each. And for that price, these subs are ABSOLUTELY amazing. I only have them pushing approx 100W each, and I can't imagine using a full 350W. If you're looking for cheap subs that will impress you, get some MA Audio XE line subs.

Swez on 08/4/2003 20:58:32
Yes, MA Audio made some very good gear in years past. I am not sure... but I thought they went out of buisness or sold out to a competitor. Not sure why... but they did make some seriously good gear.

Swez

mJonesie on 08/9/2003 15:07:59
OK guys so I took the ol' measuring tape and figured out what I have to work with.

So in the middle of the back seat, where it's raised the highest, I have a little over 4" of heighth. On the sides, the highest point is a little over 5" of heighth. And on the sides where I have the most space I have 7.5" of heighth. I may be able to raise the seat a little to accomodate and extra inch or two, I don't know. Being this as it may, what do you guys think -- if any -- will work for me? Thanks!

-Mike-

Swez on 08/9/2003 17:25:23
Egads Mike!

That's not going to be an easy job installing a traditional sub box enclosure under the rear seats. Most better woofers have between 4.5 - 8.0" in depth alone.

Would you have an option here to fold up one seat in back to give some adequate install space? Did this with a buddy of mine whereby the amps were placed on a platform and secured under the rear seats. He flipped up the rear seat segment on drivers side and we built a custom wedge that fit righ behind his seat. Used a pair of 10's (Eclipse 8710's) subs and some nice DSL amps to power all gear.

We tested the enclosure design after fitting with a CS-800 Peavey Pro that shelled out ~ 600 watts RMS to his subs. After a few repairs to the subs, they sounded great in my shop... even better in the truck... a Ford F150 Crew cab. Have pics and web links if you wish.

Another thought... do you have storage compartments where a sub can be installed in something like this? If yes, let's brainstorm some more.

Swez

Swez on 08/9/2003 18:17:15
Mike, have a close look on this page for all the options in the game for some ideas other enclosure makers have come up with. Perhaps on of these design can be employed for your truck.

GOTO: http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-9y9ZTy7Wixx/ProdGroup.asp?g=841

Oh, do you have the Infinity sound package now?

Swez

mJonesie on 08/10/2003 11:56:43
Well first off my rear seat is all one continuous seat, not a split seat, so I can't really adjust just one part of it. As far as storage compartment, not really just a glove box and a bed, that's about all I got being a pickup.

No Infinity sound system, but I'll be doing a complete system anaways.

I could probably have the rear seat adjusted to allow for a few more inches I would think. I REALLY am thinking I want to go with 2 12's" so I'm wondering what I could possibly do with that. I'm thinking in the middle, where I have the least space, that it's not a big concern there as the two 12's" would be on either side of that and just the middle connecting piece would go there. Where I have the most space (about 7.5") is towards the outer part of the rear seat. So I'm thinking maybe if I don't mind them sticking out a little bit from the seat (which I don't) that maybe I could fit more options that way. Ideas?!?!?! Thanks!

Pinch on 08/10/2003 13:18:45
I saw a pretty cool install in a truck a couple of weeks ago where they guy cut a hole through the bed into the cab of the truck. Then he used some sort of flexible insullation in between the cab and the bed so that the two could still flex when the vehicle moved over bumps and stuff. It looked like a lot of work, but he was able to fit a really big bandpass box with 2 12" subs into a truck!

Pros: -Obviously, much more space to work with in the bed.
-No interior/cab room sacrificed.
-Won't have to pay large sum of money for a Thunderform or
equivalent.
-Could disguise box as a tool box for a relatively "stealth"
install.

Cons: -Major modification to vehicle
-Could be trouble if not properly sealed against rain, snow,
etc.
-Must sacrifice bed space.
-Might have to purchase bed top of some sort to cover and
protect enclosure.

mJonesie on 08/13/2003 16:45:28
OK guys any more ideas? I'm hopefully wanting to stick with my dual 12's" set up if at all possible. Any ideas on what subs would fit this requirement? Thanks!

-Mike-

mJonesie on 10/1/2003 16:13:00
Hey guys thanks for all the opinons. Here's what I"ve narrowed it down to:

2 10" or 12" JL w6v2's
2 10" or 12" RE "SE" or "HC" Series
2 10" or 12" eD "O" or "A" Series
4 8" RE's

I can acquire the JL w6v2's for about $300/piece, the eD O Series are about $200/piece, the A Series about $300/piece, and the RE's I'm unsure of. Money is of course still an issue.

Given all this, what would you guys recommend? I want a hard hitting system but also good sound quality which is why my speakers will be being replaced as well with either Focal's or Boston's. Any advice or opinions are greatly appreciated.

-Mike-

thebullet on 10/2/2003 00:13:39
Is your truck a single or Extended Cab? Because I have a single cab Chevy Truck and JL W-series subs were too deep to be mounted in my vehicle without losing too many notches on my seats (I'm a pretty tall guy). I was going to get the 12" w6v2 subs at first; my friend has 2 w3v2's in his blazer and those things are sooooooo loud that they shake the loose change in my truck from a good 200 feet.

If your truck is an extended cab then this is moot, but if space turns out to be an obstacle in the end, you can always do a cut-through. Cut-throughs reduce the value of your vehicle however (since you are cutting through the cab and into the bed), so only do it if deep, hard-hitting bass is a must-have for you.

Also keep in mind that I am a total noob; I am merely telling you from experience what has worked and what hasn't in my vehicle. Feel free to question everything I've said since I could very well be wrong. I hope I have been a little help though!

Jon

mJonesie on 10/4/2003 16:51:04
My truck is the extended cab. I am looking to stick the subs under the back seat so space is still an issue. Mainly I was deciding between these choices based on their reputation. I'm concerned with both SPL and SQ so a good combo of both is what I'm after. I want a system that BUMPS but also allows clarity in the mids and highs. I haven't heard many of the subs listed which is why I'm asking the opinions of those that have. Any ideas?

Swez on 10/4/2003 18:02:47
Yeah, I get the picture... and if you really want SQL performance, all the models mentioned so far will give you that. Some are lower in cost, but perform very well in the right enclosure design.

The problem here... can you make a box that fits under the rear seat and still give you good SQL bass performance? With the rear seat in place, tough fit for a standard enclosure. Is there a way to build an enclosure that slides under the seats low profile and mount the dual subs in the foot wells of the rear seat area?

This method will allow you the proper air space, but the woofers will have enough depth to perform efficiently. Can you envision that type of install? This will give you rear seat & some cargo space, but little foot room for rear seat passengers. This is more like an "L" box design shape.

Sub size will be determined by the space between rear seat and back rests of front seat.

Unfortunately, this site does not allow much for graphics or html or I would try to give you a rough pic.

Comments?

Swez

_________

mJonesie on 10/6/2003 14:05:13
I kind of see what you're saying. JL has a couple enclosures specific for my vehicle. Perhaps they will give you a better idea of what I have to work with so that you can give me your opinion on what would work on my situation. Here's the links to the boxes:

Box 1, duals under rear seat:

http://www.jlaudio.com/stealthbox/ramextendedcab.html

Box 2, replaces the center cushion of my front seat:

http://www.jlaudio.com/stealthbox/ramctr2.html

Does this help you forsee anything that may be more apt for my situation? I know it doesn't give exact dimensions but it's the best I could find.

-Mike-

Swez on 10/6/2003 19:59:46
The under the seat design looks similar to the MTX thunderforms and this makes the install very easy and looks very OEM as well.

The front seat version is interesting, but I don't know if I'd like to remove the fabric off OEM seat for this install and sensors etc. You would get a nice arm massage or such... but not sure I'd like the sub in that location.

Swez

uochronos on 10/7/2003 11:38:50
If you want alot of bass for your buck Alpine type R 10's and 12's are very nice both for SQ and power i have 2 10's running off a 500 watt amp and thats slightly underpowering them and they sound as good as all my friends 12's with way better sq then most. and they are very comparable to JL's in alot of ways. infact down at cartoys i cant tell them apart a whole lot by SQ or bass alone when played off the same reciever. you can pick a pair of these up for 200$ off ebay thats with shipping and brand new thats way. better then the price of JL's. you should take a look at these and listen to them at a lcoal audio shop. i';m pretty sure they would fit under the seats too at least they well fit in a 2003 ranger there and i think a Ram has a little more room. you should definatly at least give these a listen before chooseing i was amazed at the boom i got for the price and i'm sure th 12's would hit much harder

mJonesie on 10/7/2003 12:36:39
Swez, did that help you to see what kind of space I have and what I may be able to fit? I sent you the pics of those enclosures just for the simple purpose of showing you what I have to work with, NOT necessarily because I wanted those particular enclosures. Any ideas on what will work for me?

Swez on 10/7/2003 17:17:50
Jonesie, I think we have reached a bit of an impass at the moment as I know of nobody that has a vehicle like yours and the only way I can really evaluate what space is actually there to work with and fabricate a solution... is to see the vehicle, make some careful measurements and observe any oddities that need to worked around.

I did help a friend design and build a 2x10 enclosure for a Ford F-150 Crew Cab. Not sure this design concept will work in your application, but here's a link to his web site w/ pics. Have a look and see this design makes any sense to your application. Pages 3 & 4 are the main pages on the sub enclosure and amp rack.

Look: http://www.sounddomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=171942&page=3

Page 11 shows his old setup with a Ram Quad Cab and dual 10's.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/8/2003 12:27:07
Well here's what I'm thinking. First off I got the specs off of JL's website for the subs that are mounted in those enclosures, the 10W1-8's. The recommended enclosure space for one is .75 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure or 1.5 cubic feet in a ported enclosure. The particular set-up they have is in a sealed enclosure so thus I can assume I have AT LEAST .75 cubic feet to work with. Secondly, looks like you helped out on installing the subs in a Dodge Ram Quad Cab via the link you gave me. I have a Dodge Ram Club Cab but I believe the amount of space I have to work with is identical to his, his version just has 4 doors where mine is an extended cab with only 2.

Swez on 10/8/2003 15:24:05
Actually. the part I was involved in, was designing and fabrication of the sub enclosure for his 2x10 Elcipse subs in his newer Ford F-150.

The latter pages were his original install in the Ram Quad cab he had before he got the Ford-F150. Just thought it might give you some idea of how he did his Quad back when.

Swez

PS There is a guy on another forum I play on and he has a Ram as well. He is using MTX thunderforms for his subs and from what I recall, he was pretty happy with the fit and OEM look. I think he was using dual 10 MTX 6000 series (8 ohms versions) in his application. If you'd like, maybe I can get an email address and you two can exchange ideas and options?

PSS Here's a link to his site on Sound Domain: Pics and such...

http://www.sounddomain.com/id/big_beardog

mJonesie on 10/10/2003 16:57:55
Are you aware of how many watts that particular enclosure can handle? Don't know that I particularly want MTX subs. I'm thinking for the most part I should hopefully be able to fit dual 10's of most brands under there. I just noticed for example on the JL enclosure it was only capable of handling 250 watts RMS. Obviously for the kind of thump I'm looking for 250 watts is not even close. I'm thinking I'll most likely just have a box made for me by whomever I choose to do the install, my biggest concern is finding some subs that will have enough space to breathe under there.

Swez on 10/11/2003 10:58:52
Here's the details on the MTX Thunderform that fits your vehicle:

http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/products/enclosures/DRXP20.cfm

The 6000 series subs are just fair and cant take much more then 500 RMS. The sub enclosure nets 1.7 cf /2 or 0.85 cf/sub. Not too bad for most 10's.

You might consider looking for one of these off ebay. Ideally, get one w/o the subs and put your own subs in. Does this appeal to you?

Swez

mJonesie on 10/13/2003 13:33:36
Sounds like they're a fairly decent enclosure. My concern is it's ability to only handle 500 watts RMS being that I'll of course be putting in some nicer, higher power handling subs (Adire Audio, RE, etc.). Could I still use this box even if I used those higher power handling subs or would I have to bag that idea entirely?

Swez on 10/13/2003 21:26:44
Not sure... you may be able to upgrade the subs (6000 series) to a higher power, better quality set of subs, assuming the subs will fit in the cavity design and can work well enough in the airspace the Thunderform provides.

I believe the Thunderform for your vehicle is 1.7cf/2 chamber, sealed. That means 0.85 cf per sub... not bad for most 10's. But the main concern is the depth of the recess in this design. The 6000's are a tad over 5" deep from the lip to magnet. How much room there is below that (using a deeper sub) I cannot say. If the new subs have deep baskets and vented through the magnet, need some airspace there to cool the sub.

The "H" spec is ~8.5" here and the sub is 5", so you may have some lattitude here for deeper sub baskets. A call or e-mail to MTX will tell you the linits you have to work with.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/14/2003 13:08:23
I'll have to check up on that. I'm just wondering if I could use some RE or eD subs in that particular enclosure. First off if they'll fit and secondly if the box can handle the amount of watts I'd be sending to them. Any ideas on that? I doubt if I ask that MTX is going to tell me how if I can manage to put a competitor's sub in THEIR box. Might be a little bit of a conflict of interest on that one....

Swez on 10/15/2003 00:34:38
Yes, true enough! But the strength of the enclosure is important and you could as them if the TH enclosure will take the 8000 series subs I/O the 6000 series and see what they have to say.

The 8000 series handle a more power and are ~5" deep... but see what they say and go on from there. The RMS value of the 8000 series is 400 RMS while the 6000 series take only 250/sub.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/15/2003 12:22:57
K well for some reason the guy I'm talking to with MTX is being an a**hole and won't tell me how much depth I have to work with HOWEVER he did tell me that the Thunderform can handle as many watts as I choose to give it. So basically power handling is not an issue, just space.

mJonesie on 10/15/2003 13:08:41
OK ok so now I got the guy to tell me I had 5 1/8" to work with in terms of depth.He also suggested that I could choose a less expensive sub with less amplification and sit it on top of the seat and I would be getting the same performance of a higher performance sub with greater amplification stuck under the seat but for considerably less $ (considering on top of the seat it would have more space and thus greater SPL). Do you agree?

mJonesie on 10/15/2003 13:31:04
Here's food for thought:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3052117151&category=50565

Swez on 10/15/2003 13:45:14
Yeah, he's right... down firing subs are so highly pressurized as they fire right into the floor. The more air space you have between the subs and a solid surface, the more SPL they can generate as the bass wave expand in the cabin.

The 4x12 wedge has some interesting aspects to it... would like to have seen the box loaded and in the truck though. Would give a better picture of whole thing in the cab. Still, these subs fire right into the rear of the front seat. Almost as bad as down firing subs. Not only that... but what is the cubic air space of the whole box? That may be why he fried the 4 HE2's... too much airspace and not enough back pressure to keep the subs from over-excursion...even at much lower power than the subs could take normally.

Honestly Jonesie, your best bet is to either remove the rear seat (or half of it, then install a decent sub enclosure with whatever subs YOU WANT. Anything less will sacrifice SPL and SQ performance.

Sure, you can set a sub box on top of the rear seats and get good results as well. But now you have lost seating capacity or inside cargo space. The key to this way... mount the subs facing upward and secure the box well with straps so they don't move around.

Your orignial idea... removing the rear seat completely, will give best sound results, but not much cargo space and seating is front only.

Choices are hard huh?

Swez

mJonesie on 10/16/2003 14:23:22
What I'm leaning towards is maybe just getting a nice-looking plexiglass type enclosure and setting it on the seat in the middle. This way I could ideally have enough room back there to still sit either one person or some cargo. That's about all I can do while still maintaining good sound and cargo space, right?

Swez on 10/16/2003 17:51:52
Yes, a friend of mine did this in his Ranger 3 door and it sounded pretty good. Used 2x10's as well. He did have to move the box a bit to store gear inside his truck, but it worked out OK for his needs.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/19/2003 15:10:28
Well I don't know Swez, maybe I'm overdoing this more then it needs to be. Maybe sticking some decent to above average 10's under my rear seat IS all that I need. Basically what I'm wanting is a system that when someone sits in my truck and hears it they go "wow, that's a bangin' loud system". I'm not looking for a particular SPL or SQ level or to win any major comps, just looking to impress some friends and enjoy driving around in my truck a little more. Unfortunately I don't have much basis for comparison as I don't know anyone with my particular set-up or situation. Maybe you could shed some light on what I would be most likely pleased with given my circumstances?

Swez on 10/19/2003 17:30:30
Well, I did show you that setup with the MTX Thuderforms a while back in this post. I don't recall what size amp he was running for his 2 x 10 Series 6000 subs, but it seems to me, an amp with 300 - 500 RMS will give you some nice thunder in a small cabin.

This one: http://www.sounddomain.com/id/big_beardog

Page 2 is the amp and Thunderforms installed. A 450 Watt RMS,
US Acoustics Amp. Nothing to sneeze at here either. You're taking mid 130's dB of SPL or maybe a tad higher. That'll bump in a small truck cabin.

If you would like to send him an e-mail and get his opinion on things... I can try to get it for you as we chatted a lot on a different forum as he was working on his system.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/20/2003 13:41:59
Yeah if you would have his e-mail addy that may very well be helpful.

I also I suppose have the option as I discussed about getting a somewhat flashier looking type box and sticking up on my seat and securing it there, although I've never seen someone with subs and a box just sitting on their seat. Any idea on how that would look? Just trying to decide if that would just look stupid there or if that would be an all right place to put it.

Swez on 10/20/2003 19:15:38
If the back seat rests fold down, not too bad a look. Sitting on top of the seat...ehhh, not so hot, but you will have bass.

I'll see I can get his e-mail addy for you...

Swez

Mine is: swezdp@juno.com

mJonesie on 10/21/2003 14:50:27
Not sure what you mean by "back seat rests." My back seat is one continuous seat it doesn't have the split seat. It DOES however have a latch to where you can fold it all the way up if needs be but I don't know whether that would help in this particular situation or not.

Swez on 10/21/2003 17:53:41
OK, gotcha... some rear seat backs fold down flat on the cushion. Seems like your seat folds up toward the back rest.

I'll try to reach BBD so you two can chat... will advise.

Swez

Swez on 10/22/2003 14:32:17
So far, no luck with BBD... his personal e-mail addy is not listed so I have posted an ATT for him to reply about his MTX Thunderforms and 6000A series subs.

Ttocs noted that he has done several JL installs that use the same basic design and had very good results. I know JL costs more, but something to consider as this is where you started anyway right?

http://www.jlaudio.com/stealthbox/ramextendedcab.html

Using a pair of 10" woofers, 250 RMS power handling... good tight midbass and good low end bass.

http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/products/enclosures/
DRXP20.cfm

Using 2x10" subs, 6000 series subs, 500 RMS power. You can easily use the 8000 series subs for more power handling. Just make sure if you go this route, get a pair of 4 ohm woofers.

This one: T8104A 10" Subwoofer 4 Ohms 24 Hz-150 Hz 800 400RMS, 84.2 dB 2 1/2" 102 oz. 5" deep

Or the 6000: T6104A 10" Subwoofer 4 Ohms, 31 Hz-150 Hz 250 Watts RMS, 85.2 dB 2" 37 oz. 5.062" deep

Swez

mJonesie on 10/22/2003 19:31:42
Yeah I was thinking that myself. JL's box is pretty similar to the MTX. It actually uses 10" subs as well, not 8". Here's the specs on the sub they have configured for the box:

http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/10W1_BDS.pdf

It's the 10W1-8 model.

Any idea on which configuration (JL or MTX) I'd be most happy with?

Swez on 10/22/2003 21:59:07
MTX loaded with a pair of 10" 8000 series or 6000 series subs will take more power and net higher SPL. The SQ of MTX woofers are not bad, but not the same animal as you get with JL's.

The JL offering is 10" x 2... (tks for catching that one) They will have good SQ and medium SPL. Here, a smaller amp will be best (like a 300 watt RMS amp)

The JL WO series is the entry level of the JL line. Good SQ, but not much on power handling. If you can use that enclosure and upgrade to a more potent 10 set from JL, am sure you'll have great SQ and SPL... assuming they can do that for a custom install upgrade. Again, you're back to where you started... 10W6V2

Flip a coin... more power and less SQ... go MTX. Want High SQ but less SPL, JL WO10's

Swez

mJonesie on 10/24/2003 13:20:31
I'm e-mailing JL right now to find out if there's a higher model of JL sub I could use with that particular box, as I think that would be the way to go.

One other option I thought of is being that my seat folds up towards the back rest rather then folding down from the back rest to the cushion, maybe I could just fold it up and put the sub under where the cushion was and that way I don't have to remove the seat. But once again I don't know how this would look. Also, would it be easy enough for me to move the sub box if I need to put the seat back down for passengers or would it be kind of a one it's there it ain't movin kinda thing? Also, I've heard you can adjust the seat so it's higher and gives more room for the subs while still keeping the seat. Might be a little bit more uncomfortable for the passengers sitting back there, but hey I'll be driving what do I care?!?!

Swez on 10/25/2003 18:48:08
Jonesie,

I did get a reply on the Thunderform 6000's from Big Bear Dog. You can read his comments on this link:

http://pub51.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm1.showMessage?topicID=1916.topic

If you wish to contact him via e-mail or phone, I have that information too. Just give me a private message or e-mail and I can hook you two up to chat.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/26/2003 16:48:03
Hmmm sounds like he wasn't too happy with the SPL level, or at least he mentioned there wasn't an incredible amount of it. But then again I guess that wasn't his main concern. I was looking at the install you did in that F-150. Would that kind of a set-up work in my situation? Also, what exactly IS SQ? I know it stands for sound quality but what does that mean for me in real world terms?

I'm still waiting to hear back from JL on that box.

-Mike-

Swez on 10/26/2003 18:55:37
SQ is as you said... Sound Quality and in car stereo, we try to replicate a live, natural sound as in a concert or studio recording session.

The general goal is to have quality equipment (speakers especially) that allow a violin to sound like one, a baritone sax sound right, guitar, vocals, bass and drum kit all sound like you'd expect.

This is very hard to achieve in car audio because of the acoustics in a given vehicle and road noise etc. But that is what SQ guys want... sounds life like, natural and realism as it was recorded.. not just boom boom boom.

Anyone can do that with enough subs and amps... but it takes some skill to merge clear, accurate mids & highs with deep, clear bass. That's the SQL challenge.. like Shark's F-150 install.

Swez

mJonesie on 10/27/2003 13:34:46
Well I got a reply back from JL and they said the 10W1's were the highest model I could go with, considering the mounting depth. He once again mentioned the 12w3v2 that is put in the middle of my front seat. Here's the outlook on that one again:

http://www.jlaudio.com/stealthbox/ramctr2.html

I'm still wondering what you think about possibly an install similar to what you did with that guy's Ford. I'd imagine I have about the same amount of space to work with as he did. Also, how do you think it would work out if I were to get this sub in the middle front in CONJUNCTION with the dual 10" set-up in the rear? How do you think that would sound?

-Mike-

quad12vs on 10/28/2003 07:33:13
I ran into a similar problem with my dodge. Wanted the bass but also wanted to keep the rear bench seat. 2 10's were not going to cut it for what i wanted. I decided to fold the read seat up and had a custom box built. I had two boxes built to hold 2 dvc 12vs. By the way Alpine type r subs will not fit under the rear seats. (12vs anyway) Each box easily weighs 150 pounds. The two boxes can be removed when the back seat is needed. Most of the time it is just me but when a road trip comes up they can be remove and my front sound stage can be swapped to full range an I will still have a good sounding system. I am very satisfied with the alpine subs verses jl or fosgate.

One thing i did have to do was fire two of the subs up. I dont recommend this in a quad or club cab. This was a trade off for the dual box. The top of the cab will rattle. The metal wil flex about 1/8 of an inch not to mention you might bust the rear window. Granted I have 4 12vs but I can crank just two of them up and get the same effect. Thing circuit city has the 4 ohm model for under 200. Maybe the 2 ohm also for under 200.

As far as amps I am running around 1700w rms and around 2800 peak. I have not upgraded my eletrical system and I can get up to about 70% before the lights start to dim. Very seldom go there though. I dont think you would have a problem there for the system you want.

http://members.sounddomain.com/quad12vs

hope this helps more than hurts.

please forgive the spelling :)

quad12vs on 10/28/2003 08:03:00
almost forgot, My truck came with the infinity sound system. tweeters are just right but you may want to look at some kick panels instead of putting speakers in the doors. I have factory 6x9 in the front doors. Replaced eveything with kicker but I think kick panel would sound much better. May be something to think about before spending the money on the factory speakers when you could invenst in kick panels from the start. Could be additional savings going this route depending on the amp you get. One amp for the whole system verses one amp for the front and one for the subs. The cost will be very close going with a componet set for the front verses buying a pair of coaix for the front and a pair of coaix for the back. Again I just replaced factory speakers so when I had to pull the subs I would still get a rear fill although that leaves me with two 1000w amps just sitting under the seats collecting dust.

Jody

Swez on 10/28/2003 08:42:07
Well Mike, now you have a new opinion in the mix...

But yes, you may be able to do a similar sub install as was done in the F-150. All Shark did was lift the seat cushion behind him, took some careful measurments and then we fabricated a box that fit both the subs needs and space he had behind his seat.

You can employ the same technique on the passenger side if you wish. Same idea, just a different location of the sub box. The trick here... careful exterior measurements that shape the box to fit that space and obtain 2 equal air space chambers. The trick was to find the proper location of the divider panel and the proper angle of that divider to get the same cf in each chamber.

In this case, we determined ~17 degrees was the right match and bevel cuts to face panel, top/botton and divider made it work out well. Had to do a little shaping with a belt sander to get all edges to fit perfectly... but the cuts were pretty close already, so the rest was just to get a clean tight fit.

Can give you more construction tips if you wish to go that route as well.

Swez

PS That stealth JL install in the center seat section of the front seat has merit. But you have to realize the SQ will be good, but overall SPL may be less than you desire. (a down firing sub design) This uses only one 12" sub ( 300 RMS) and a fair amount of refit may be needed to install it properly. Am sure you can get more details on the install from the JL .pdf file at the bottom of that page.

You can anticipate high 120's dB of SPL with this sub and 300 RMS amp. If you go the other route we are kicking around, can use more RMS power and notably higher SPL and very good SQ, depending on the subs and box you choose.

mJonesie on 10/29/2003 14:27:08
Hey thanks for that input, quad12vs. I may run into that problem as well. Would Dynamat help with that at all, or should I just look at doing something besides upward firing subs?

Ya know Swez, honestly, with money the way it is I'm REALLY leaning towards buying and under-the-seat box design, such as the Thunderform enclosure. Maybe not necessarily going with those particular subs, but maybe some nicer one from a different brand that would still be able to perform in that scrunched setting. Do you think this will be possible, or just all a dream?

-Mike-

Swez on 10/29/2003 17:46:20
I think that might work... you have a tad over 5" in depth to work with and each chamber is 0.85 cf sealed... so, finding a sub that will perform in that size enclosure and ~5" deep will be the ticket.

If you can buy an empty TF enclosure and fill it with the subs of your choice, good to go. If not, sell the 6000's and get what you want. Am sure some careful shopping will net some usable choices.

What power range are you thinking for the sub/amp combo? I beleive the 6000's are 250 RMS per each (10's). The 8000 series is rated at 400 RMS/sub and is 5" deep.

Both 6000/8000 series are pretty low sensitivity ratings. (mid 80's dB @ 1w/1m) This means these subs need a pretty beefy amp to get up to full potential.

Hey Mike, how long do you think we can make this posting? Do you think we can make it to 100 post/replies before 2004? GRIN

Swez COFFEE

mJonesie on 10/31/2003 12:51:51
Any ideas on some good subs that might fit the criteria? You CAN buy the Thunderform enclosures without the MTX subs so that's a plus. Also, any ideas on perhaps raising the seat up to fit some better subs in there?

-Mike-

P.S.- 100 replies by 2004?!?! No problem...(I got the time)

Swez on 10/31/2003 18:25:20
Can do a sub search on a few models that are proven performers. Just need a price range and how much power you want to throw at them.

If you have an amp in mind already, that will help! If not, let's start thinking on that issue too as we will want to match the amp to the subs, as close as possible. Here again, power and price considerations are helful. Do you have an amp preference to date>

Swez

PS Only 29 posts to go... :-)

Swez on 11/1/2003 08:33:01
Am looking into this brand for your application in a TH dual 10 enclosure:

Found these as a possible option to replace the MTX 6000's :

http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/
LogicSoundlab/lsl_MDX.htm

MDX10

10" Double Stacked Magnet Subwoofer
· High Quality Poly Coated Paper Cone
· Silver Die Cast Aluminum Basket
· 500W RMS ***
· Hi-Excursion Over Sized Foam Surround
· 2" High Temperature Kapton Voice Coil
· 100 oz. Magnet/200 oz. Magnet Structure
· Chrome Magnet Plate
· Impedance: 4 OHM ***
· Sensitivity: 86 dB
· Frequency Response: 30Hz - 2.5KHz
· Mounting Depth: 4 3/4" ***

2LSL-MDX10 TWO LOGIC SOUNDLAB MDX SUBWOOFERS $62.99/ea., $125.98/pr. +S/H.

Have no links to this maker and what size sealed enclosure they recommend, but power and mounting depth are a good match... they are 4 ohms SVC's. Am contacting Yoshi to see if he can provide technical details needed. (sealed box recommendations and T/S parameters.

Will advise,
Swez

mJonesie on 11/2/2003 15:56:56
Hey cool I'll wait on that info, thanks Swez. In terms of amps, I was thinking JBL or Rockford Fosgate, but am open to suggestions. I'll need 2 amps, one for my subs and a 4-channel for my front stage. I was looking at either Boston Pro series or Focal Polyglass series for my speakers (6.5" 2-way comps. in front, 5.25" coaxial in rear), but if you know of a comparable brand that's maybe more pocketbook consentious I'm of course open to that.

Swez on 11/2/2003 16:54:59
Did get some additional links on technical side of Logic subs. Here's the main site and you can just scan the subs for details... from specs I noted so far, can take plenty of power and .85 cf/sub will be fine as well. Just not sure how well they may fit into the sub cavity of the TF enclosure we have been talking about. Depth is good, but basket shape is a concern w/o knowing the woofer shell dimensions.

Look: http://www.logicsoundlab.com/index.html

Specs on the MDX 10:
http://www.logicsoundlab.com/mdx10.html

As for good Comps., the CDT CL-61a is an excellent choice for the price noted here:

http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
At $150.00/pr for 6.5" Comps, these are the best deal I know of. If you can modify the rear install holes, get 2 pair and have a sweet deal all the way.

As for amps... If you go with the CDT's they can take plenty of power if you have it.... 75-100 watts RMS per channel is a good number. Can go a few different ways here, depending on the subs you choose, I still like the JBL Power series. Class D, 300, 600 or 1200 watts RMS @ 1 & 2 ohm loads.

Not sure what JBL has in the newer amp series for 4 channel or a pair of 2 channel amps. If you want to look around at: http://ikesound.com you may find a few things of interest there.

Have fun,

Swez

mJonesie on 11/3/2003 14:08:03
I haven't heard much talk about the Logic subs. How good are they in terms of a good SPL/SQ combo? Also, any way of finding out if the basket shape will work out for me or not? (Don't know if MTX would give me that info or not).

As far as the CDT comps, haven't thought about 6.5" comps in the back, don't know if that's feasible or not. How comparable sound quality-wise are the CDT comps in comparison to the Boston Pro and Focal Polyglass speakers? Here's the links to the exact comps I was looking at:

Bostons:

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ca_product.asp?ProductID=59

Focals:

http://www.focal-america.com/catalog/new_polyglass/165v2.htm

Swez on 11/3/2003 17:23:10
Don't have a lot of info on the Logic subs either. Have never used them and has been one of the few subs that meet the 5" deep criteria. However, not sure if that basket will fit into the shell of the TF's. I am told the shell is a hard surface like ABS plastic and not easy to reshape. But this was the only sub I have found that met the depth and power handling we have been focused on. In short, I am fresh out of options. The 8000 subs should fit as they are 5" deep and 400 RMS/sub. That's the best I can come up with.

The Focals and Boston's are fine components too. The Focals are great SQL and handle 75 RMS/ea. The BA's take more power and they are of high quality as well.

The CDT's I mentioned are being bought and used by many here on the cite and a few of my other friends have them as well. From all reports I have received.... excellent product and a great price too. I am definitely considering these in my next install also.

Swez

mJonesie on 11/4/2003 14:36:14
So sounds like my options are pretty limited on that then, huh? Basically 8000 series subs or go with another set-up. But maybe that will be enough bass for me. As stated earlier I'm not looking to win any major competitions or for that matter even be competitive in one. I just want a system that when someone sits in my truck -- or the car in the lane next to me pulls up -- they go "wow, that's a nice system." Obviously this is a VERY subjective question, but do you feel that with the set-up I'm looking at I could achieve that kind of an effect?

Swez on 11/4/2003 15:04:19
Yes, you should definitely get some attention with a pair of 8000's and a potent amp like Kicker, JBL or RF MONO amps.

I have been reading Big beardog on another forum and he is checking out the possiblities of Resonace Engineering's RE 10's for his TH dual 10 enclosure. He is trying to figure out the physical parameters of the sub and how well it might fit into the TF cavity as well.

Here's the link to the thread if you wish to read it: http://pub51.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm1.showMessage?topicID=1923.topic

"I called David at Resonant Engineering to get the skinny on the re10's. Here it is, The mounting depth is a slender 4.75" (Aprox., he was measuring his prototype) the ETA on availability if January, and cost direct from RE is 55 to 60$ each (guess-timated price)!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn near perfect on all accounts.
I CAN'T WAIT! I offered to test their prototype for them, but he just chuckled. "

This sounds like a potential drop in winner for TH enclosures.... Whoops, maybe not... as these are only 175 watts RMS power handling. One step forward, 2 steps back! This is getting annoying huh?

The more I look at this, the better the Shark F-150 design is becoming the #1 player. The TF loaded with a pair of 8000 series subs is a better fit to the interior and no loss of passenger space to speak of.

Flip a coin and call MTX to see if they recommend loading that TF model with a pair of 8000 series subs. If they say yes, then we can discuss amps to get the job done.

Finally, the CDT's are a great SQL set of COMPS. You can install them in front and rear with a slight modification to the rear speaker holes. May need a trim collar to get them in, or just use the proper size CDT Classic coaxials as you wish.

Here: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_FullRange.html

CL-5X 5.25" 2-way Full-Range Speakers (pair) $47.99!
Model: CL-5X (Slim Coaxial)
Midrange: 5.25"
Mounting depth: 2"
Crossover: 6 dB.
Tweeter: Angle mount .75" metal dome
tweeter for perfect imaging
Power handling: 60 watt
Frequency response: 65Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity: 91 dB.
Impedance: 4 Ohm

Not bad for under $50.00/pr.

Swez

compvr15s on 11/4/2003 15:50:24
i have heard a few systems with mtx subs, are yours the silver ones with the long diamond shaped pieces that stick out. i dont know if you will be satisfied with that particular sub. are you using that sub due to space restriction or the brand name, i read a few of the posts but not all since there are a ton, but the systems i have heard with them subs just wernt too impressive, maybe it was due to the amps and enclosures maybe but i was pretty dissapointed. not tryin to turn you off from them because they may sound great in your setup, but you may want to hear them first or find out if you can return it if it dont stand up to your needs. good luck, hope i didnt make things more confusing.

Swez on 11/4/2003 17:45:40
Yep, that's the dilemma alright... tight space to work in, few products out there to make it a drop in done deal... great bass machine.

I am not impressed w/ MTX speakers and sub either. There are so many better choices out there, using a conventional sealed enclosure.

We have looked at many alternatives so far and the option that will probably prevail, is giving up some seating space for a good sub/ enclosure kit. JL has a few options as well, but there are limits to their solutions as well. Mainly power handling, price of the woofer and location of the sub... Stealth design etc.

This is a real nut cracker... balancing bass power and lack of space... short of giving up part of the rear seating and cargo area. I don't know what else to recommend either... but I do agree with BBD, MTX is not the animal I want in my bass machine.

Swez

mJonesie on 11/5/2003 12:46:43
So what's the Shark F-150? Is that the enclosure you helped build in your buddy's truck?

Those RE's don't sound too bad. Looks like I'd have to wait til January to do anything though since that's when they come out. Speaking of RE's, what about the RE 8" subs? I heard 4 of them bump pretty hard and being that they're such a small sized sub I would think they might fit under my seat. Any idea if that's a possibility?

In terms of the 8000 series subs being compatible with the Thunderform enclosure I spoke with MTX and he said they are too large. The 6000 is the most I can go. So the 8000 series subs are out.

Finally, in terms of my front stage, what kind of benefit will I get out of customizing the rear speaker holes to fit the 6.5" comps? I will very rarely have any passengers back there so I'm wondering if there's an advantage or not if I'm just having people sit up front?

compvr15s on 11/5/2003 13:33:21
what size are the rear speakers? 5x7? i think thats what my neighbors f-150 has, he put in a set of infinity 2 way 5x7s. they were incredible, very impresive. they have swivle tweeters, and come with a crossover. i would say there will be any advantages going with 6.5 comps back there, would probably be fine just going with a nice pair of speakers that match factory size then no need for cutting. wait for swez on this, but i know that how my neighbor did his truck and it sounded really crisp and clean. good luck

Swez on 11/6/2003 05:59:13
Yes, that F-150 was Shark's truck and the one we built a custom sub enlosure for. He is now in the process of revamping the sub system from 2 x 10" Eclipse and going to 1 Adire Brahma Mark II. (12") He said it pounds like crazy over his dual 10's at less power too. Great lows in a 1.2 cf sealed box.

This sub line is not cheap, but can be used in very compact enclosures and still go very low as well. Power handling in a 0.75 cf box is ~1200 RMS and loads of SPL for a single 12" sub. Can go smaller w/ A single 10" Brahma in a very small, sealed enclosure... ~0.50 - 0.75 cf will do nicely. The 10" is only 6.5" deep, while the 12" is 7.25" deep.

The most compact enclosure design I can think of, is a tube style enclosure. This tube will need to be 9" -10" in diameter (10" sub) and very heavily reinforced with internal bracing and a fiberglass shell. Would have to run some numbers on the length of the tube to net proper internal air space requirements. In this case, a single 10" will definitely give you an edge over the MTX TF designs we have looked at so far.

Raising the rear seats are definitely an option and fire the sub to one side of the cabin. I do not recall the height figures you have now on the rear seats... can you refresh my memory?

Check em out: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/
drivers/brahma_series.htm

===========================================

As for Comps in the rear... maybe the best SQ but a bit over kill for the average install. You can use Coaxials in rear that fit into existing speaker mounts, and upgrade to Comps in the front stage. This is the best of SQ and cost balance. Amping the front Comps is definitely recommended. You can also amp the rear fills or just run them off the HU amps.

Finally, the RE subs mentioned are small and only rated at 175 watts for 10" version. They are still in prototype testing and may not hit the market until early 2004.

Swez

cplkittle on 11/6/2003 12:13:12
I have had my eye on this one for about 3 months, I have never heard a speaker so friggin loud or deep, the only drawbacks are the price and the 2000watts RMS needed. here is the website and a brief description from it.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_4057_48141,00.html

The incredible TS-W5000SPL 12-inch subwoofer handles 5000 watts max. power, 2000 watts nominal. Two years in development and boasting four patent-pending designs, this SPL sub can withstand over 170dB. It is designed specifically for winning SPL competitions, where decibel levels are measured to determine the loudest vehicle. Here's a clue about its construction: you can hurt yourself just trying to pick it up.

>Triple-Stacked Magnet Structure. Merely doubling up on magnets wouldn't have allowed us to hit 170+ dB, so we went to three, and they're all massive. This helps to explain why the TS-W5000SPL weights 69 pounds - the magnets alone account for 20 pounds. This structure provides tremendous magnetic energy and ensures positive, powerful control of the voice coil during those looooonng excursions.

...and set aside about $300 for your first few noise ordinance tickets.

compvr15s on 11/7/2003 17:59:50
three probably going to put a 1000 dollar price tag on this thing and will just sit on the shelf. i dont see it puttin out 170 decibles, and they say it will be good for regular listing too i dont see that happening, probably poor sq. it may be better than i expect but only weighing 69lbs i dont see it coming close to what they say, do you know what they used to power the sub, pioneer dont make an amp that big that i know of, unless they have sumting new i dont know bout.

mJonesie on 11/8/2003 11:53:49
My truck is in the shop right now so I can't re-measure it, but in one of my previous postings I noted the rep from MTX said I had 5 1/8" of depth to work with. I imagine if I were to raise the seats some I could get AT LEAST a couple more inches of depth.

That Shark F-150 install seems like it might be good. I have that gap between the back of my front seat and the front of my rear seat that is just open space. I could position it clear over to one side so that I could still have plenty of sitting and storage space (all I'd give up is seating for one person). Would it sound uneven though being positioned to the far side of the vehicle or is that irrelevant in bass?

Don't know about that Pioneer sub post.......sounds more like an advertisement to me. Think I'll just avoid that one as it appears to have NOTHING to do with what we're discussing.

-Mike-

cplkittle on 11/8/2003 14:01:05
They were pushing the pioneer with a 2000w audiobahn amp. do not know the model number, but it was the flame series. As far as 170db, there was no meter there, just around a dozen amazed people standing around. I found one brand new on ebay for $385
I am not an expert my any means, however, I can tell you that standing infront of this speaker made my clothes ripple like standing infront of a fan, and it wasn't from the air port.

mJonesie on 11/10/2003 11:54:54
Any comments on my last post, Swez?

Swez on 11/10/2003 12:03:07
Jonesie... I admire your ability to focus and look at all possible options while mapping out this plan!

The Shark install concept makes sense if you are willing to give up one seat in the rear. Can always store an amp or 2 under the the remaining seat and still have some cargo and seating space.

Sonically, it matters little on the location of a sub as bass waves are "omnidirectional". They propagate throughout the cabin with little notice of where the bass is coming from. The larger the air space in the cabin, the less you can detect where the bass is coming from.

Besides, if you install it behind the driver's seat, you'll get a free back massage when you kick up the SPL. GRIN

If you opted for this type of install, can always go single 12" to conserve space and still have excellent bass. (figure an enclosure of 1.0 - 1.25 sealed is all you would need internally) There are several 10's and 12's out there that can take plenty of power and deliver loads of bass if you so desire.

Thoughts?
Swez

mJonesie on 11/11/2003 15:18:53
I'm thinking what might be a good idea is when I FINALLY get my truck out of the shop, taking it to a place like Car Toys and have them take a look at my seating area and see what they think would work back there, as I know it's hard for you to say being that you don't have my truck right there in front of you to look at. Hopefully they could shoot some ideas my way and even though I necessarily won't be buying any of their products they probably will end up doing the install portion so that would be good to get their thoughts. Speaking of install, is it really worth my $$$ to add the Dynamat to my system or will it not make any kind of noticeable improvement?

Swez on 11/11/2003 15:30:53
For better SQ and keeping it inside your truck... it does make a difference. Isolates and insulates the cabin and can dampen rattles on door panels, side panels, roof etc.

There are several other brands out there that will also work very well and cost much less than Dynamat. E-Dead, Brownbread come to mind, but am sure there are others that know this process better than I care to.

Realistically speaking, a single potent 12", dual 10's or dual 8's will all net good bass performance in a small package. It's more a matter of power handling ability and SQ... vs space you have to work with. The subs choosen, are an important part of the overall equation... but the enclosure design, is the heart of a quality sub install.

As for power... how much amping power do you really want here? I think you mentioned 400-500 RMS/sub at one point. But if you are really interested in high SPL, it will take 2 potent woofers to handle that kind of power and $350 each is ball park.

If you went with say 600 RMS to a single sub, your SPL levels will be close to 140 dB when you really kick it up. Figure ~$350 for a sub, ~$200 for the amp and whatever the install fees and enclosure will be. Say $750 here as a rough number.

Going a dual sub route and 1200 RMS amp, you can expect ~ +6dB more SPL, ~$650 for subs, ~$300.00 for a good amp and whatever the install fees and enclosure will be. Say $1200.00 here as a rough number.

"Is +6dB really worth all that to you?" Only you can answer that question.. but for my opinion.. maybe not. Using the $750.00 for sub and such are a great start and then upgrade the interior speakers and add an amp for High Quality SPL/SQ full range.

What say you?
Swez

mJonesie on 11/12/2003 13:55:13
That might not be a bad idea. I want to eventually upgrade the entire system, but starting out with the bass would definetly help. Seems like if I just went with one sub and then wanted to upgrade to an entirely different sub and enclosure format I would be looking at a lot more dough in the long run though. But in terms of upgrading the speakers and amping them that was something I always had in mind of doing. To save costs though, say I just got the subs and amped them and left the stock speakers alone temporarily. Would that just sound like complete sh--?!?! I don't want it to sound horrible to where you can't even hear the words of the song, just a constant "thump." I mean I know it won't sound like an orchestra hall by any means but will it still work for me?

As far as the 400 watt RMS sub vs. the higher power sub that would net me about +6dB of SPL I really don't know. +6dB doesn't really mean much to me considering I don't know what 6dB of SPL SOUNDS like. Is it a notieable difference? In the end I'm not going to try to win any comps, just have a kick ass system that sounds good and loud, so I don't know if the 400 watt RMS system will suffice or not, tough to say going just off numbers and no real-world knowledge.

In terms of the Dynamat, I noticed on that one guy's post who had the Dodge Ram Thunderform enclosure that I was looking at, he noted how the roof would always rattle. Would the Dynamat potentially cure that problem? One thing that I DON'T like the sounds of is that the Dynamat basically traps in the noise, so people in the car next to you won't really hear it. I know it sounds stupid but half the reason of me getting a system is to show it off so I don't like the idea of it shutting the noise in to where others won't hear it, unless I'm misinterpreting you.

Thanks again for the help!

-Mike-

Swez on 11/12/2003 17:34:21
About Dynamat and other sound deadening materils, they do keep the sound in side the vehicle, reduce road noise and improve audio gear SPL/SQ via containment. If you do get rattles and excess vibrations on the roof, may well have to D-mat that too. BUT, if you want to show off a bit, just open the windows and let the bass out. You will be heard.... believe me.

About all bass and not much mids/highs.... yes, you can setup your amp/sub to a point where it will drown out most mids/highs... but you can cut the bass to blend with your present stock system for now. As you continue to upgrade, this issue will go away and you can obtain high SPL/SQ in full audio range later with amps and better speakers.

A typical stock HU/speakers will deliver between 95 - 103dB of SPL. The sub system we are talking about, will be close to 140 dB. That is a big spread, but at different frequencies. Bass needs more power as we are pushing loads of air to create a high SPL bass wave.

As for if you want more bass later, can always duplicate the system for more bass later if you desire.

You get 1 Sub/Amp/Enclosure kit now and enjoy.. if you want more later, add a 2nd kit of same. However, if you go with a single Brahma 10" or 12" sub and 600 RMS amp... I don't think you will need more bass. (+140 dB of bass is more than you get at a rock concert, 30 feet out, center stage) Remember... you are working in a very small space... not filling a stadium or concert hall with bass.

The dB thing is hard to explain as it is logrithmic, not linear in math & physics.

In short form... if you have an amp/sub combo that delivers say 110 dB of clean SPL, add more amp power x 2X, and you get a +3dB boost in SPL. Enough to hear the difference, but not a huge increase. (100 watt amp/sub ------> 200 watt amp, same sub = +3dB more bass)

Now, same scenario, 100 watts @ 110 dB, kick it up to 119 dB (+9 dB gain). This will give your ears a 100% increase in what you hear (appearent loudness). Would need 800 watts of power to generate +9dB more than the previous mentioned.

Does that answer your questions?
Swez

Aburns on 11/14/2003 12:52:13
I just installed the JL Audio "stealthbox" 12w3v2 center seat box, in my 95 Ram. I'm pretty happy with it. A snap to install, took all of about an hour from start to finish. I'm pushing it with a Kenwwod Excelon KAC520. It will out power the sub. The bass is nice and tight, hits lows fairly well. Would definately recommend it for a starting point in a club cab. Add more subs in the back later, if you really need to. I only have an standard cab. It was replacing 2 10w3's behind the seat,. I wanted the room bak to put in another amp and some raer seperates. Hits just as hard with as much clarity as the the 2 10's did. Your previous post about stock speakers this will definately drown them out. Any other questions feel free to ask.

Adam

mJonesie on 11/15/2003 11:33:49
How could I make the bass and mids/highs more even out? It worries me that Adam only had the middle seat stealthbox and HIS mids/highs were even drowned out (my bass will be much more then what he had).

Adam, did you have any roof or door rattling due to the bass?

Swez, with the issue of drowning out the mids/highs, would it help that I have an aftermarket deck (albeit not a great one) or would that not make a difference?

-Mike-

Swez on 11/15/2003 09:53:28
Thanks Adam... we have talked about the JL stealth install before and did not really know if this scenario would provide good SQL performance or not.

If I recall right, that sub will take ~300 RMS of amping power to get it up to full potential. Is sealed and the JL woofer used is moderate efficiency rating (86.7 dB @ 1w/1/m) so a 300 watt RMS amp will net about 111 dB plus cabin gain effects of +15 to 20 dB here. So this stealth idea would net ~ 125 - 130 dB of bass SPL. (NOT BAD)

The thing I noticed most on the sub specs, is that frequency response in a 1.25 cf sealed for this sub is not bad for deep lows. The Fs is 24 Hz and F3 (-3db down point) is 40. 2 Hz. A well designed sub/enclosure will be a tad larger and go lower as well.

The Adire Brahma 10" or 12" sub design would really shine... even in a small sealed enclosure, they get low and can take much more power for higher SPL. They rate Fs at 35/28 Hz., respectively. Not sure what the F3 point is on either 10/12". The Brahma 10/12 will take 1600 watts thermally and in a small sealed enclosure, > 1000 Watts RMS. These babies will thump out lows like nobody's business at 600 RMS or more.

In reality, JL and Adire both make fine SQL subs. The Brahma is not cheap, but can really handle large power amps and more SPL along with exceptional SQ. The JL will take less power, but is also a fine SQL sub. Flip a coin and let your budget, space limitations and SPL performance make the choice.

One final comment... The Brahma is a 2 ohm DVC while the JL W3v2 comes in 2,4,6 ohm DVC options. Make sure you pick the one that is best for the amp you intend to use.

Swez

cplkittle on 11/15/2003 14:19:13
Found this one on Ebay for $200

AWIS12 audiobahn immortal series (2003)
2000w RMS
20-700Hz
SPL (efficiency) 97.0
3" quad 2ohm voice coils
triple stacked 200oz magnets
carbonfiber/kevlar cone
picture/info http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/woofers/immortal.html

mJonesie on 11/18/2003 13:15:00
Not sure which would be best for me. The dB the JL sub will put out really don't mean much to me since I'm not sure exactly what that equates to in real world terms. Basically will it "bump" ya know?

With the Brahma's they are a little pricey. Are there any other subs out there with similar SQL characteristics and power handling capability at a slightly more pocketbook friendly price?

ryan on 11/20/2003 23:50:28
I have the 12" Brahma and it was worth the $406 (after shipped) i paid for it. It pounds and has good SQ and SPL. I'll be getting my dB tested and i'll post it when i get it workin perfect.

cplkittle on 11/22/2003 09:52:11
just a note.. posted this on the SQ thread..
Have heard these on display myself... VERY CLEAN, RICH, SMOOTH, HEAVY BASS!!
$60 at this address:
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/BAZRSW1024DVCPM
P. Miller Signature Series by Master P
Part of the P. Miller Signature series, these woofers feature a reinforced polypropylene cone with rubber oversized surround, rubber edge gasket, large 2.5” Kapton voice coil former, and a C.H.I.L. compatible mega-sized magnet structure with bumped backplate and rear venting. Thanks to a reinforced, chrome-plated, side vented, steel basket, this speaker sounds and performs as good as it looks. The dual voice coils are available in dual 4-ohm and dual 2-ohm configurations for high-end amplifier compatibility. Using a C.H.I.L. Plug with a C.H.I.L. Pack on this woofer means that you can dump and additional 50% more RMS power into the voice coils before they will reach their thermal limits.

admin on 02/6/2004 00:52:51
bmp

Relax_The_Mind on 02/6/2004 03:09:08
Why dont you try out the Elemental Designs 12a.

They seem to be quite the performers for a budget friendly $295/each

http://www.edesignaudio.com/ep2/12a.htm

RTM

BTW this is Post # 100

swez on 02/6/2004 11:23:50
100 is hit the target and the longest posted thread I can recall on this forum...

Yes, there are many other great SQL subs out there athat will take plenty of power and operate well in smaller enclosures. Infinity, Alpine, RE, ED all come to mind and will be a bit easier on your budget.

As for bass heavy system, with a stock HU only, your mids and highs will be well, below sub output capacity with as little as 300 RMS power to the subs. A 2nd amp for mids and highs will balance that out a lot, but the stock speakers will have to go eventually.

If you have the Infinity powered speakers system, they have more output as the speakers have separate amping off the HU. If just a stock Dodge HU/spkrs., you'll be very bass heavy until new speakers and amping are added to balance the package. Do you know if your present HU used a powered Infinity speaker system? I think the amps are mounted on or close to the speakers. Sometimes the amp(s) are located under the front seat or in the dash area. Ttocks or another installer would know how to guide you on searching this oned out.

Hope that helps,
Swez

KrAwLk on 02/10/2004 11:37:59
I appologize if this subject has already been hit upon, but couldn't you build a sufficient box and leave your back seat folded up?

Big_BearDog on 03/29/2004 18:06:47
So....HOW DOES THIS STORY END?!!! BTW, I ordered a pair of Resonant Engineering RE10's for the Thunderform. They are due in early April. I'll let you know how they work out.