what are your opinions on enclosures for speakers (not subs) does it improve performance, SQ or SPL?
Are speakers that are mounted in the door sealed in?
The 4" factory speakers mounted in my dash are free air.
And what about 6x9s.
I was in the local car audio shop last week looking a a pair of 6x9s and the salesman, said i should also buy a boxes for them, i thought you could just mount them on the parcel try directly.
Cheers .
Replies (16)
compvr15s on 10/6/2005 23:51:03
a rear baffle will help somewhat with bass, but face its a 4inch or a 6.5 aint gonna put out massive bass... you can mount in the rear deck, if you have subs in your trunk, it would never hurt to add an enclosure around your 6x9s to keep the bass from the subs out of the speakers... as for door speakers i dont know many if any that are enclosed, not enough room between the speaker and the window to have a baffle... if you fiberglass pods into your doors then you can fully enclose the speaker. know many people that have put sound deadening on the doors insides and have been very happy with the outcome.... good luck
swez on 10/7/2005 06:29:31
CompVR is right. An enclosure can help a lot, to bring out midbass performance in 6x9's, 5x7's, 6.5's, 5.25's and yes, even 4" drivers. With rear deck speakers and subs in the trunk, it's a must to have some kind of baffle to block bass waves that can damage the rear deck speakers. It does not have to be a box per-se. Just some type of enclosure (even tupperware) that can be stuffed with a little poly fill, to keep heavy bass energy away from the rear deck speakers.
As for door mounts, seems the best one can do here, is to seal the door panels with some form of membrane to create a semi-sealed enclosure. Dynamat, rubberized sheet goods like non-porous neoprene will also work. Even heavy gage plastic sheeting will help. The trick is to seal all the access holes in the inner door frame. For best results, a good spray on adhesive (like 3M Super 77) works great on projects like this. The less air losses we can get, the better door speakers will sound in the MB region.
About dash mounted speakers, yes... even a 4" MR speaker can benefit from a psudo-enclosure. Some use custom fiberglass shells as enclsoures. But a simple sheet or loose polyfil behind the magnet can help with better MR performance. It will not be air tight, but can definitely improve MR performance on smaller speakers.
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/7/2005 08:46:51
IMO it is best to use baffles and seal them properly w/ good sound dampening; such as: Dynamat Extreme, Fatmat, etc...
Using small enclsoures can help, but really do not enhance the actual sound quality nor do they enhance any of the sound freq. the speaker reproduces.
Properly sealing the speaker, especially when using the factory locations is the best way to get optimal performance from aftermarket speakers installed in a factory location. Baffles are enclosures, as well as a excellent way to seal the speaker.
Since I left the shop I was working in to pursue freelance installing, I keep Fatmat and B-Quiet Extreme around and use it in all of my speaker installs at no added charge.
You can purchase the baffles from Crutchfield or at some local audio shops, or you can make your own baffles by using sound dampening. The better a speaker is sealed the better it will sound, even in factory locations. It is always best to use baffles in rear fill speakers b/c in most cases the opening are in the trunk.
Remember, you do not have to use boxes/enclosures for coaxial or component speakers b/c a good baffles, whether it is made from sound dampening or it is the XTC foam ones work as an enclsoure. Even amplified speakers do not have the intense output to cause the flexing that subwoofers do, so 3/8" foam baffles or one made of 3/8" sound dampening will work as an enclosure.
Remember, the main purpose of boxes, for speakers such as: 6x9's, is to installthe speakers in applications where the speakers do not fit properly or to change the staging of the speaker. If you are using factory locations and the speakers fit, it is best to use baffles and seal them w/ sound dampening.
less
swez on 10/7/2005 13:00:12
Less,
I was conducting some tests of some 5.25" MB drivers a while back. One test was only a baffel board in a large sealed box and some sound dampening. It worked OK, but MB response was not very tight nor very good output SPL.
I then made an impromptu enclosure for one speaker, using a 2lb Foldgers coffee container, filled with poly fill and sealed to a baffle board. Yes, it did flex a bit, but it worked well enough to talk about. Both speakers were mounted in larger sealed boxes. (1.2 cf) One box had the Foldger's container glued to the rear of the baffle board. The other was just mounted in the sealed box.
Test:
Fed both drivers some CD quality program material and used EQ as an active filter. Frequencies below 120 Hz were attenuated by -12dB. Frequencies above 5,000 Hz were also attenuated by -12dB. All sliders between that range were set at 0dB. I used a Yamaha Pro Series amp with about 50 Wrms @ 8 ohms. These were 4 ohm speakers, so more power was avaiable from the amp.
Results:
Both boxes were connected to separate amp channels and amp filter was set to flat response. When I started listening to various CD tracks, the SQL of the driver with the Folgers enclosure was crisp, tight and notably louder then the one in the larger sealed box.
Bass extension was very good (down to 60 Hz.) in the Folgers configuration. I barely heard much bass below 100 Hz from the other box. The cones moved a lot in both cases, but output levels were very different as one was more like free air and the other was a psudo- sealed enclosure.
As I moved to MR and upper MR material, the differences were not as noticable. Above about 300 Hz., they both sounded about the same. But below about 200 Hz, the Folgers box was superior in MB performance. More SPL in lower octaves. Tight, crisp MB and good low bass extension were very evident.
Summary:
The psudo-sealed enclosure helped bring up MB performance considerably. The cone was not being over worked at even 60 Hz. Output was notably better than the baffle only version. Not so much in the MR area, but definitely in MB range. As I added more 60 Hz content to both channels, the Folgers unit worked smoothly and efficiently.
The other unit started to lose cone control at lower frequencies, but there was very minimal usable output at the 60 -120 Hz output range. Above about 300 Hz., they sounded about the same.
Anyway, that was my experience in this kind of test. Not all that scientific to be sure. (no RTA, signal generator nor SPL meters were used) But our hearing is able to detect a notable difference in performance. That was good enough for me. I know what I heard. The difference was very pronounced and measureable.
FYI: When I kicked up the volume and ran some lows to each test unit, the Folgers container blew off the snap on lid. When the lip blew off, lower MB and bass performance was about the same as the other unit. Snapped it back on, used a little hot glue and Viola, this little 5.25" driver hung in there above 50 Wrms.
That's my story, sealed enclosures did produce much better MB.
Swez
JMB on 10/7/2005 15:27:13
Hey thanks compvr15s,lessismorespl,swez.
sorry but im having trouble getting my head around exactly what a baffle is. you guys really have some kickarse ideas, thanks for the input. Cheers. JMB
compvr15s on 10/7/2005 15:43:10
a baffle is another word for enclosure, sorry, should have cleared that up. good luck
swez on 10/7/2005 20:29:02
JMB,
Sorry to leave you baffled about the term baffle. In audio terms, a baffle has several meanings:
1. Baffle board: the mounting surface of a speaker whereby the front cone sound waves are isolated from the rear cone waves. Each signal is 180 degrees out of phase, so we want to minimize one signal, (usually the signal off the rear of cone) so that audio output does not cancel out what you do wish to hear. (the front cone energy)
2. Sound Baffle chamber: This is a small isolation chamber that traps rear cone sound waves. This also can act as an acoustic chamber to enhance front cone output while improving low frequency performance of the speaker at medium to high output levels.
The main idea here, is to prevent rear cone signal waves from meeting the front cone waves at about the same time. If they do meet in 180 degree offsets, they tend to cancel each other out. (Ie: poor audio output)
Does that make sense now?
Swez
PS Quality audio performance is all about understanding the physical properties of sound waves. It's actually pretty simple in one sense, but very complex interactions are all part of a great sounding install.
Lessismroespl is probably the most well versed on installs and acoutics topics. However, many Golds have a degree of expertise where sometimes, information seems to conflict or overlap. That's pretty normal to have variations on a given install. It's just based on personal experience levels and experimentation.
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 09:21:14
Very good results there Swez. See, experimenting is fun and you can learn from the experience. Which is why I'm always trying new and different things. A well made baffle will work as an enclosure, but you must remember that most baffles are made of cheap foam so they are not technically an enclosure. I make my own baffles, and use sound dampening to basically make a form of sealed enclosure. When using the factory openings, which many of know are not exactly the best staging for speakers, these bafflesw can be made to change the direction of the speaker to produce better staging. It is far more in-depth w/ components, but the main point here is to make the speaker sealed into the opening for the best possible response. The better the speaker is sealed, the better the output will be, whether the speakers is properly staged or not. Sound has one point of direction, but many poiints of reflection, if the speaker is not sealed in properly, you are losing output, therefore you are losing the spectrum of reflection the speaker can produce.
less
ttocs on 10/9/2005 09:28:30
Your only gonna get so much out of a 4" up front, and if I remember those cars you will have a heck of a time getting an baffle behind it to seal up. Kick panels?
swez on 10/9/2005 09:55:08
Wonder if mounting larger MB drivers (5.25 - 6/5") in the front door panels would be possible here?
Any comments?
Swez
asplundher on 10/9/2005 14:52:31
Anybody remember those old cardboard style baffles that GM used to use on the rear deck speakers. They was lined with some type of cheap dampening material and formed a simple type of enclosure, but worked very well for the speakers.
That is the key! A enclosure can also be of any simple rear loading like a piece of carpet, acoustic wool, etc fixed across the rear of a speaker. I have used several of these techniques with somewhat good results at times.
swez on 10/9/2005 16:52:06
Oh yes, they work very well and even help block out heavy bass waves from a sub or two in the back. My last car had them. (90 Old's Trofeo')
When I installed new 6x9's in the rear deck, had to remove them and make a larger baffle to accomodate the larger magnet structure. The air space was larger and the net result was considerably more low bass performance until I added subs and amp later.
Swez
PS Those covers did help block sub bass waves well enough. However, they were so small an airspace, the low freq performance of the speakers was hindered a lot. A larger baffle will definitely help the low MB performance of rear deck speakers.
cplkittle on 10/9/2005 19:13:37
I don't like any speakers that are not round (except subs).
The only way you can get any SQ from a 6x9 or 5x7 (impossible for a 4x6 or 4x10, and I do not think 6x8 should be a speaker size) is to use a baffle and or box. I do believe you can get some decent bass from 6.5" mid drivers. I have my rear 6.5 components in a sealed 6x6x24 box (shared airspace) because in my suv, the rear speakers face each other in the very back..
I would either reconstruct the back to hold a pair of 6.5" speakers or go with one or two 8's run as full range.
swez on 10/9/2005 22:05:00
Agreed! Ovals are just not cut out for high fidelity performance due to excess cone distortions. If one has 4x6, 5x7 or 6x8 ovals, a good option is to use plate speakers. You get a round driver and tweeter that are mounted on a plate that fits the prescribed speaker mounting shape.
If one is good at fabrication, always go round drivers with appropriate adapter plates.
Swez
JMB on 10/10/2005 00:14:53
So 6.5" components in the doors would give a good SQ, preferably sealed in there. Is that what a pod is?
What exactly is a kick panel?
I might have to learn how to use fiberglass i think.
Hhhhmmm.....i wonder what the wife will think, ah honey im just going to cut off part of the door.....
Cheers. JMB
swez on 10/10/2005 08:15:43
Kick panels are molded speaker enclosures that fit at the floor board and side panel where your feet rest in the floor pan.
Here's a pic:
http://www.thezeb.com/p-Q-Logic-Q-Forms-QL-U5001B01-Black-108128.htm
"Pods" are usually fiberglass enclosures that are molded right into the door panels. These require a great deal of planning and glassing skills. They are not overly expensive to make, if one has a good degree of glassing experience.
How to approach wifey... "Honey, I am going to try a winter project this year. I'm giving up going to the bar with my buddies this season, limit my sports watching on TV and want you to help me do it. It will be our Christmas present project".
If you can make that one fly, you are a master salesman! SMILE
Swez
Are speakers that are mounted in the door sealed in?
The 4" factory speakers mounted in my dash are free air.
And what about 6x9s.
I was in the local car audio shop last week looking a a pair of 6x9s and the salesman, said i should also buy a boxes for them, i thought you could just mount them on the parcel try directly.
Cheers .
Replies (16)
compvr15s on 10/6/2005 23:51:03
a rear baffle will help somewhat with bass, but face its a 4inch or a 6.5 aint gonna put out massive bass... you can mount in the rear deck, if you have subs in your trunk, it would never hurt to add an enclosure around your 6x9s to keep the bass from the subs out of the speakers... as for door speakers i dont know many if any that are enclosed, not enough room between the speaker and the window to have a baffle... if you fiberglass pods into your doors then you can fully enclose the speaker. know many people that have put sound deadening on the doors insides and have been very happy with the outcome.... good luck
swez on 10/7/2005 06:29:31
CompVR is right. An enclosure can help a lot, to bring out midbass performance in 6x9's, 5x7's, 6.5's, 5.25's and yes, even 4" drivers. With rear deck speakers and subs in the trunk, it's a must to have some kind of baffle to block bass waves that can damage the rear deck speakers. It does not have to be a box per-se. Just some type of enclosure (even tupperware) that can be stuffed with a little poly fill, to keep heavy bass energy away from the rear deck speakers.
As for door mounts, seems the best one can do here, is to seal the door panels with some form of membrane to create a semi-sealed enclosure. Dynamat, rubberized sheet goods like non-porous neoprene will also work. Even heavy gage plastic sheeting will help. The trick is to seal all the access holes in the inner door frame. For best results, a good spray on adhesive (like 3M Super 77) works great on projects like this. The less air losses we can get, the better door speakers will sound in the MB region.
About dash mounted speakers, yes... even a 4" MR speaker can benefit from a psudo-enclosure. Some use custom fiberglass shells as enclsoures. But a simple sheet or loose polyfil behind the magnet can help with better MR performance. It will not be air tight, but can definitely improve MR performance on smaller speakers.
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/7/2005 08:46:51
IMO it is best to use baffles and seal them properly w/ good sound dampening; such as: Dynamat Extreme, Fatmat, etc...
Using small enclsoures can help, but really do not enhance the actual sound quality nor do they enhance any of the sound freq. the speaker reproduces.
Properly sealing the speaker, especially when using the factory locations is the best way to get optimal performance from aftermarket speakers installed in a factory location. Baffles are enclosures, as well as a excellent way to seal the speaker.
Since I left the shop I was working in to pursue freelance installing, I keep Fatmat and B-Quiet Extreme around and use it in all of my speaker installs at no added charge.
You can purchase the baffles from Crutchfield or at some local audio shops, or you can make your own baffles by using sound dampening. The better a speaker is sealed the better it will sound, even in factory locations. It is always best to use baffles in rear fill speakers b/c in most cases the opening are in the trunk.
Remember, you do not have to use boxes/enclosures for coaxial or component speakers b/c a good baffles, whether it is made from sound dampening or it is the XTC foam ones work as an enclsoure. Even amplified speakers do not have the intense output to cause the flexing that subwoofers do, so 3/8" foam baffles or one made of 3/8" sound dampening will work as an enclosure.
Remember, the main purpose of boxes, for speakers such as: 6x9's, is to installthe speakers in applications where the speakers do not fit properly or to change the staging of the speaker. If you are using factory locations and the speakers fit, it is best to use baffles and seal them w/ sound dampening.
less
swez on 10/7/2005 13:00:12
Less,
I was conducting some tests of some 5.25" MB drivers a while back. One test was only a baffel board in a large sealed box and some sound dampening. It worked OK, but MB response was not very tight nor very good output SPL.
I then made an impromptu enclosure for one speaker, using a 2lb Foldgers coffee container, filled with poly fill and sealed to a baffle board. Yes, it did flex a bit, but it worked well enough to talk about. Both speakers were mounted in larger sealed boxes. (1.2 cf) One box had the Foldger's container glued to the rear of the baffle board. The other was just mounted in the sealed box.
Test:
Fed both drivers some CD quality program material and used EQ as an active filter. Frequencies below 120 Hz were attenuated by -12dB. Frequencies above 5,000 Hz were also attenuated by -12dB. All sliders between that range were set at 0dB. I used a Yamaha Pro Series amp with about 50 Wrms @ 8 ohms. These were 4 ohm speakers, so more power was avaiable from the amp.
Results:
Both boxes were connected to separate amp channels and amp filter was set to flat response. When I started listening to various CD tracks, the SQL of the driver with the Folgers enclosure was crisp, tight and notably louder then the one in the larger sealed box.
Bass extension was very good (down to 60 Hz.) in the Folgers configuration. I barely heard much bass below 100 Hz from the other box. The cones moved a lot in both cases, but output levels were very different as one was more like free air and the other was a psudo- sealed enclosure.
As I moved to MR and upper MR material, the differences were not as noticable. Above about 300 Hz., they both sounded about the same. But below about 200 Hz, the Folgers box was superior in MB performance. More SPL in lower octaves. Tight, crisp MB and good low bass extension were very evident.
Summary:
The psudo-sealed enclosure helped bring up MB performance considerably. The cone was not being over worked at even 60 Hz. Output was notably better than the baffle only version. Not so much in the MR area, but definitely in MB range. As I added more 60 Hz content to both channels, the Folgers unit worked smoothly and efficiently.
The other unit started to lose cone control at lower frequencies, but there was very minimal usable output at the 60 -120 Hz output range. Above about 300 Hz., they sounded about the same.
Anyway, that was my experience in this kind of test. Not all that scientific to be sure. (no RTA, signal generator nor SPL meters were used) But our hearing is able to detect a notable difference in performance. That was good enough for me. I know what I heard. The difference was very pronounced and measureable.
FYI: When I kicked up the volume and ran some lows to each test unit, the Folgers container blew off the snap on lid. When the lip blew off, lower MB and bass performance was about the same as the other unit. Snapped it back on, used a little hot glue and Viola, this little 5.25" driver hung in there above 50 Wrms.
That's my story, sealed enclosures did produce much better MB.
Swez
JMB on 10/7/2005 15:27:13
Hey thanks compvr15s,lessismorespl,swez.
sorry but im having trouble getting my head around exactly what a baffle is. you guys really have some kickarse ideas, thanks for the input. Cheers. JMB
compvr15s on 10/7/2005 15:43:10
a baffle is another word for enclosure, sorry, should have cleared that up. good luck
swez on 10/7/2005 20:29:02
JMB,
Sorry to leave you baffled about the term baffle. In audio terms, a baffle has several meanings:
1. Baffle board: the mounting surface of a speaker whereby the front cone sound waves are isolated from the rear cone waves. Each signal is 180 degrees out of phase, so we want to minimize one signal, (usually the signal off the rear of cone) so that audio output does not cancel out what you do wish to hear. (the front cone energy)
2. Sound Baffle chamber: This is a small isolation chamber that traps rear cone sound waves. This also can act as an acoustic chamber to enhance front cone output while improving low frequency performance of the speaker at medium to high output levels.
The main idea here, is to prevent rear cone signal waves from meeting the front cone waves at about the same time. If they do meet in 180 degree offsets, they tend to cancel each other out. (Ie: poor audio output)
Does that make sense now?
Swez
PS Quality audio performance is all about understanding the physical properties of sound waves. It's actually pretty simple in one sense, but very complex interactions are all part of a great sounding install.
Lessismroespl is probably the most well versed on installs and acoutics topics. However, many Golds have a degree of expertise where sometimes, information seems to conflict or overlap. That's pretty normal to have variations on a given install. It's just based on personal experience levels and experimentation.
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 09:21:14
Very good results there Swez. See, experimenting is fun and you can learn from the experience. Which is why I'm always trying new and different things. A well made baffle will work as an enclosure, but you must remember that most baffles are made of cheap foam so they are not technically an enclosure. I make my own baffles, and use sound dampening to basically make a form of sealed enclosure. When using the factory openings, which many of know are not exactly the best staging for speakers, these bafflesw can be made to change the direction of the speaker to produce better staging. It is far more in-depth w/ components, but the main point here is to make the speaker sealed into the opening for the best possible response. The better the speaker is sealed, the better the output will be, whether the speakers is properly staged or not. Sound has one point of direction, but many poiints of reflection, if the speaker is not sealed in properly, you are losing output, therefore you are losing the spectrum of reflection the speaker can produce.
less
ttocs on 10/9/2005 09:28:30
Your only gonna get so much out of a 4" up front, and if I remember those cars you will have a heck of a time getting an baffle behind it to seal up. Kick panels?
swez on 10/9/2005 09:55:08
Wonder if mounting larger MB drivers (5.25 - 6/5") in the front door panels would be possible here?
Any comments?
Swez
asplundher on 10/9/2005 14:52:31
Anybody remember those old cardboard style baffles that GM used to use on the rear deck speakers. They was lined with some type of cheap dampening material and formed a simple type of enclosure, but worked very well for the speakers.
That is the key! A enclosure can also be of any simple rear loading like a piece of carpet, acoustic wool, etc fixed across the rear of a speaker. I have used several of these techniques with somewhat good results at times.
swez on 10/9/2005 16:52:06
Oh yes, they work very well and even help block out heavy bass waves from a sub or two in the back. My last car had them. (90 Old's Trofeo')
When I installed new 6x9's in the rear deck, had to remove them and make a larger baffle to accomodate the larger magnet structure. The air space was larger and the net result was considerably more low bass performance until I added subs and amp later.
Swez
PS Those covers did help block sub bass waves well enough. However, they were so small an airspace, the low freq performance of the speakers was hindered a lot. A larger baffle will definitely help the low MB performance of rear deck speakers.
cplkittle on 10/9/2005 19:13:37
I don't like any speakers that are not round (except subs).
The only way you can get any SQ from a 6x9 or 5x7 (impossible for a 4x6 or 4x10, and I do not think 6x8 should be a speaker size) is to use a baffle and or box. I do believe you can get some decent bass from 6.5" mid drivers. I have my rear 6.5 components in a sealed 6x6x24 box (shared airspace) because in my suv, the rear speakers face each other in the very back..
I would either reconstruct the back to hold a pair of 6.5" speakers or go with one or two 8's run as full range.
swez on 10/9/2005 22:05:00
Agreed! Ovals are just not cut out for high fidelity performance due to excess cone distortions. If one has 4x6, 5x7 or 6x8 ovals, a good option is to use plate speakers. You get a round driver and tweeter that are mounted on a plate that fits the prescribed speaker mounting shape.
If one is good at fabrication, always go round drivers with appropriate adapter plates.
Swez
JMB on 10/10/2005 00:14:53
So 6.5" components in the doors would give a good SQ, preferably sealed in there. Is that what a pod is?
What exactly is a kick panel?
I might have to learn how to use fiberglass i think.
Hhhhmmm.....i wonder what the wife will think, ah honey im just going to cut off part of the door.....
Cheers. JMB
swez on 10/10/2005 08:15:43
Kick panels are molded speaker enclosures that fit at the floor board and side panel where your feet rest in the floor pan.
Here's a pic:
http://www.thezeb.com/p-Q-Logic-Q-Forms-QL-U5001B01-Black-108128.htm
"Pods" are usually fiberglass enclosures that are molded right into the door panels. These require a great deal of planning and glassing skills. They are not overly expensive to make, if one has a good degree of glassing experience.
How to approach wifey... "Honey, I am going to try a winter project this year. I'm giving up going to the bar with my buddies this season, limit my sports watching on TV and want you to help me do it. It will be our Christmas present project".
If you can make that one fly, you are a master salesman! SMILE
Swez
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