I have a question on the "big 3" upgrade. When upgrading the Positive wire from the altenator to the battery, can I just leave the stock wire attached and run a new wire directly from the altenator to the battery (with inline fuse ofcourse)? The stock wire runs through/under the fan shroud and into a fuse box and quite frankly it looks like it would be a pain in the (you know what) to rout my new wire in this manner. Also what size wire/fuse do you recommend. My new HO (200amp) alt should be here friday, and I'm hoping to get my system up and running by saturday.
Thanks in advance....Greg
Replies (18)
thefury on 10/5/2005 22:06:43
Got it figured out........
ryan2 on 10/6/2005 08:26:02
Im gload you figured it out but let me add some advise. I recommend leaving all the stock wiring on along with the upgraded big 3.
For 2 reasons i do this:
1)If you go to sell the car all you have to do is disconnect the big 3 and you can use that on your new car. And safe yourself money.
2)Gives you even more current flow because its like haveing a bigger wired.
swez on 10/6/2005 09:11:35
You can use both stock and add on wires as mentioned. The larger wire gages have less resistance and will carry the bulk of the power through both wires. The voltage is the same in either wire, but the current carrying ability in the larger wire is higher.
As for the fuse, match that to line you plan to use. Fuse only the wire between ALT output and BAT pos. These are special high current fuses and holders, designed for car audio gear.
#4 wire = 100-150A
#2 wire = 200A
These types:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-20
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STISEANLFH
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 15:25:35
I always suggest to leave the factory wiring. Current will travel the path of least resistance, so having both the factory and upgraded wiring connected really will not make much difference.
As for what wiring to use, I always use the same ga. wire I use for my system wiring, e.g.: 4 ga amp kit, 2 or 4 ga wire. W/ the upgraded alt I would suggest using 2 ga. however 0/1 ga would work best, and still keep your factory wiring connected. Definately use a 200 amp fuse w/; the new HO alt.
If you have any further questions about the Big 3 you can email me at admin@lessismorespl.com and I will send you digrams and such. I probably do 4 or 5 Big 3's every month.
less
Victor on 10/6/2005 16:03:51
hey, less, its been long since we have talked, do catch up some time on yahoo .
Victor..
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 17:41:33
I moved recently, do not have yahoo downloaded on my new computer. I will try to make some time to go into the CK chat so we can all catch up.
thefury on 10/6/2005 18:07:13
Hey less, I sent you an email but not sure if it sent.
Greg
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 18:10:41
I'm checking email right now.
only_tuning on 10/8/2005 08:30:36
hey its an important issue here , about the alt , i'm having few conserns about the main fuses of the ride it self , if the Alt is replaced with an aftermarket alt isn't that going to put extra power and stress on the fuses of the inside lights and display or cpu of the ride ?
second i think Monstercable produce quality products too
swez on 10/8/2005 09:47:07
The CPU (ECM/BCM) helps regulate the voltage output to what the computer detects the entire load on the system is. The normal components in a car, will only draw the power they need and no more. That's why the fuses are there. (to make sure these devices don't draws more current than is needed)
Example: What happens when you have a 16 oz cup and try to put more water in it? The excess spills over the edge right? The cup is full at 16 oz and can handle no more.
Similar idea with a 50 watt light bulb. (amplifier, motor, etc.) In this case, there is a fuse in that line and if the circuit tries to pull more power than the fuse is rated for, the fuse will blow and shut off the flow to that circuit.
Does that clear things up for you?
Swez
only_tuning on 10/8/2005 20:43:55
ok ,
i'm kind of slow forgive me, but isn't that extra amprs that the alt produce , which mean that it can harm the car fuses , or what
as u said the fuses can blow when extra current pass by , it only accepts a certin power to pass by ,
sorry i'm only tring to fully understand the issue here
many many thanks
lessismorespl on 10/8/2005 20:49:47
That is exactly correct Swez! It actually hurts the CPU (ECM/BCM) more when it is not getting its proper voltage. Any reputable company makes the alts w/ built in regulators. The Big 3 helps more by giving a better ground than by simply upgrading the positive wire. Most vehicles have very poor ground loops, therefore completing the loop is suffiecient for the cars electrical system, but when you add a system w/ external amps and such, it is not sufficient enough for the added voltage. In most cases just replacing the ring terminals and cleaning off the grounding points of the factory wiring can improve the overall voltage.
Monster does make excellent accessories and wiring,but is way over priced, even online it is much more exspensive than most other accessories in it's class.
less
swez on 10/8/2005 22:17:03
This is a hard consept to understand, because we cannot see electrons flowing through a circuit. So, I try to use anaolgies of common things that most people can get it.
Again, let's look at this one again tuning... an electrical device will only draw so much power (watts) based on its design. This is regulated by wire size, resistance of a device and the limits of the fuse in the circuit.
Let's look at a toilet bowl for an example. The upper water storage container (tank) can only hold so much water right? We flush the toilet, water drains out of the tank and then the flapper valve closes and the water suppy begins to refill the holding tank. There is a float type shut off valve in the tank. Once the water level in the tank gets to a certain pre-determine level, the float will shut off the incoming water supply until the next flush. See that one clearly?
OK, the alternator is your incoming water supply. It can fill the tank quickly or slowly, based on the hose/pipe diameter. (this is our resistance factor) The rate of flow, determines how fast or slow the tank can refill.
Once the tank is filled to the proper level, the float (acts like a switch) will stop the incoming water to the tank. (this is our regulator) Once the tank is full, the valve will shut off and no more water can enter the tank.
Same thing in our car electrical system. Each device gets as much power as is needed and then the regulator will open/close as needed to keep the system fully charged. Anthing extra that is produced by the ALT, will be store in the battery.
Once the battery is fully charged, the regulator (float in toilet) will tell the computer to shut off the ALT flow until the system needs more
power. This cycle is monitored by the ECM/BCM, (CPU if you will) many times per minute. If the power demand increases, (say we turn on all the lights, heater blower and stereo) the computer detects these changes in demand for power and switches the ALT back to output mode to feed all loads it senses.
However, the ALT/BAT is regulated as to how much power is being consumed and produces only enough power to meet the new load conditions.
Finally, fuses are there to protect wires and devices in a given circuit. If the circuit attempts to draw more power (watts) than the circuit is rated for, (load, wire gage used etc.) the fuse will blow to prevent damage to power source.
Well, I hope that all makes sense now. It's the best I can come up with for the moment. If you need more clarification, just ask and we'll try again.
Swez
PS Yes, this is a difficult concept to grasp for some. Since we cannot see electrons as they flow, it is harder to understand the theory behind how it works.
All one really needs to know is that a larger power source (ALT & BAT) can produce more power when asked for it. If more power is not needed, the amount that is needed, is all that is provided.
PSS A quickie for ya... Say a given car engine can produce over 400 HP when we mash on the gas peddle. However, at idle or low speeds, the engine will only deliver as much power (20-80 HP) as needed, based on how much we press on the gas pedal. Same idea when applied to electrical circuits. How's that? SMILE
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 09:01:12
Yes, the water anaology is the best one to use. We must remember that current will travel the path of least resistence, which is why we suggest keeping the factory wiring intact.
As Swez's example explains, regardless of how much amperage an upgraded alt produces, it will not have any negative effects on the vehicles electrical system. What is important, is that the upgraded positive wire is fused between the battery and the alt. even if you are still running the factory alt.
When upgrading to high output alts, we must always upgrade the wiring b/c the factory wiring is not efficient enough. This is kind of how the Big 3 came about, people figured if we up grade the wiring to make a high output alt operate efficiently, why not try upgrading the wiring on your factory alt. There are many references to the Big 3 in every forum now, especially w/ the negative results of capacitors.
less
PS Not all manufacturers use the same testing nor do they come w/ the same outputs, and most are rated at peak output. I have tested 160 amp alts that were only 40-50 amps on idle. When buying a HO alt, always look for the output testing, they are tested before they leave to get an actual rating of the output amperage. A good HO alt will have a built in regulator, and be in the range of 85-95 amps at idle. The 200 amp alt I( recently purchased was rated at 95 on idle w/ an actual of 102 (test RPM's were 1000), at highway speeds, 2000-2500 RPMs, it was rated at 200 amps, produced an actual 215 amps. A good HO alt manufacturer will also include the wiring, or give you diagrams and wire rating to assist in the installation of the upgraded wiring. Mine suggested 4 ga min, 0/1 ga max. and they suggest the optimal wire to be 2 ga w/ an inline 200-250 amp fuse. They also suggest using a battery w/ at least 800 CCA, and highly suggest using a deep cycle battery. So remember, you cannot just buy a HO alt and slap in the car, there are other upgrades that need to bhe done to assure the optimal performance of the alt.
less
only_tuning on 10/9/2005 19:46:28
it's perfectly clear , thanks Swez &Less
i remmember once one of my friends told me that a guy of works in a alts nad Bat shop did a mistake in a replacing a bigger alt on a standerd Bat = result the Bat blowed on him , Dame !!
i'm not sure is it's true or not but is it possiable to happen???
swez on 10/9/2005 22:00:30
Anything is possible... but that's just the headlines. What did the dummy forget to do that caused the problem? My guess, he did not use a regulator or the regulator did not do its job. The other possiblilty was that he reversed polarity on the battery wires and up she went.
Dam = holds back water
Dame = an older woman
Damn = somebody messed up bad hehe
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 22:18:28
This is why we always stress 2 important steps in the Big 3; one: always use an inline fuse between alt and the battery(apprx. 18"s from the battery) and 2: always leave the factory wiring intact. What this prevents is exactly that, the battery exploding. Read the tutoral that is linked on here in several posts. The inline fuse will prevent the alt from peaking and over charging the battery on the chance the regulator does go bad in the alt. It is easier to replace the voltage regulator and/or alt than it is to clean up the mess and the possible other damage from an exploding battery.
When upgrading the alt, you must always upgrade the wiring and add an inline fuse. Some people do not use common sense and feel that the fuse serves no real purpose. If you read the section of fuses on BCAE1 (http://www.bcae1.com) it stresses that fuses are one of the most important factors in car audio. Without fuses, we would constantly be replacing amplifiers and other components of the electrical system everytime there was a surge in voltage. Remember, in mobile electronics all vehicles are one big conductor, it is easier than one might think to short something out.
less
thefury on 10/9/2005 22:52:41
Thanks less/Swez for you'r knowledge and input on this important topic. I, for one, now clearly understand how to go about my upgrade thanks to you. Now it's time to "getterdone"
Greg,,
p.s. Got my system installed this weekend and although it is'nt anything spectacular, it sounds awesome. I am very, very happy with the outcome.
Thanks in advance....Greg
Replies (18)
thefury on 10/5/2005 22:06:43
Got it figured out........
ryan2 on 10/6/2005 08:26:02
Im gload you figured it out but let me add some advise. I recommend leaving all the stock wiring on along with the upgraded big 3.
For 2 reasons i do this:
1)If you go to sell the car all you have to do is disconnect the big 3 and you can use that on your new car. And safe yourself money.
2)Gives you even more current flow because its like haveing a bigger wired.
swez on 10/6/2005 09:11:35
You can use both stock and add on wires as mentioned. The larger wire gages have less resistance and will carry the bulk of the power through both wires. The voltage is the same in either wire, but the current carrying ability in the larger wire is higher.
As for the fuse, match that to line you plan to use. Fuse only the wire between ALT output and BAT pos. These are special high current fuses and holders, designed for car audio gear.
#4 wire = 100-150A
#2 wire = 200A
These types:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=FH-20
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STISEANLFH
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 15:25:35
I always suggest to leave the factory wiring. Current will travel the path of least resistance, so having both the factory and upgraded wiring connected really will not make much difference.
As for what wiring to use, I always use the same ga. wire I use for my system wiring, e.g.: 4 ga amp kit, 2 or 4 ga wire. W/ the upgraded alt I would suggest using 2 ga. however 0/1 ga would work best, and still keep your factory wiring connected. Definately use a 200 amp fuse w/; the new HO alt.
If you have any further questions about the Big 3 you can email me at admin@lessismorespl.com and I will send you digrams and such. I probably do 4 or 5 Big 3's every month.
less
Victor on 10/6/2005 16:03:51
hey, less, its been long since we have talked, do catch up some time on yahoo .
Victor..
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 17:41:33
I moved recently, do not have yahoo downloaded on my new computer. I will try to make some time to go into the CK chat so we can all catch up.
thefury on 10/6/2005 18:07:13
Hey less, I sent you an email but not sure if it sent.
Greg
lessismorespl on 10/6/2005 18:10:41
I'm checking email right now.
only_tuning on 10/8/2005 08:30:36
hey its an important issue here , about the alt , i'm having few conserns about the main fuses of the ride it self , if the Alt is replaced with an aftermarket alt isn't that going to put extra power and stress on the fuses of the inside lights and display or cpu of the ride ?
second i think Monstercable produce quality products too
swez on 10/8/2005 09:47:07
The CPU (ECM/BCM) helps regulate the voltage output to what the computer detects the entire load on the system is. The normal components in a car, will only draw the power they need and no more. That's why the fuses are there. (to make sure these devices don't draws more current than is needed)
Example: What happens when you have a 16 oz cup and try to put more water in it? The excess spills over the edge right? The cup is full at 16 oz and can handle no more.
Similar idea with a 50 watt light bulb. (amplifier, motor, etc.) In this case, there is a fuse in that line and if the circuit tries to pull more power than the fuse is rated for, the fuse will blow and shut off the flow to that circuit.
Does that clear things up for you?
Swez
only_tuning on 10/8/2005 20:43:55
ok ,
i'm kind of slow forgive me, but isn't that extra amprs that the alt produce , which mean that it can harm the car fuses , or what
as u said the fuses can blow when extra current pass by , it only accepts a certin power to pass by ,
sorry i'm only tring to fully understand the issue here
many many thanks
lessismorespl on 10/8/2005 20:49:47
That is exactly correct Swez! It actually hurts the CPU (ECM/BCM) more when it is not getting its proper voltage. Any reputable company makes the alts w/ built in regulators. The Big 3 helps more by giving a better ground than by simply upgrading the positive wire. Most vehicles have very poor ground loops, therefore completing the loop is suffiecient for the cars electrical system, but when you add a system w/ external amps and such, it is not sufficient enough for the added voltage. In most cases just replacing the ring terminals and cleaning off the grounding points of the factory wiring can improve the overall voltage.
Monster does make excellent accessories and wiring,but is way over priced, even online it is much more exspensive than most other accessories in it's class.
less
swez on 10/8/2005 22:17:03
This is a hard consept to understand, because we cannot see electrons flowing through a circuit. So, I try to use anaolgies of common things that most people can get it.
Again, let's look at this one again tuning... an electrical device will only draw so much power (watts) based on its design. This is regulated by wire size, resistance of a device and the limits of the fuse in the circuit.
Let's look at a toilet bowl for an example. The upper water storage container (tank) can only hold so much water right? We flush the toilet, water drains out of the tank and then the flapper valve closes and the water suppy begins to refill the holding tank. There is a float type shut off valve in the tank. Once the water level in the tank gets to a certain pre-determine level, the float will shut off the incoming water supply until the next flush. See that one clearly?
OK, the alternator is your incoming water supply. It can fill the tank quickly or slowly, based on the hose/pipe diameter. (this is our resistance factor) The rate of flow, determines how fast or slow the tank can refill.
Once the tank is filled to the proper level, the float (acts like a switch) will stop the incoming water to the tank. (this is our regulator) Once the tank is full, the valve will shut off and no more water can enter the tank.
Same thing in our car electrical system. Each device gets as much power as is needed and then the regulator will open/close as needed to keep the system fully charged. Anthing extra that is produced by the ALT, will be store in the battery.
Once the battery is fully charged, the regulator (float in toilet) will tell the computer to shut off the ALT flow until the system needs more
power. This cycle is monitored by the ECM/BCM, (CPU if you will) many times per minute. If the power demand increases, (say we turn on all the lights, heater blower and stereo) the computer detects these changes in demand for power and switches the ALT back to output mode to feed all loads it senses.
However, the ALT/BAT is regulated as to how much power is being consumed and produces only enough power to meet the new load conditions.
Finally, fuses are there to protect wires and devices in a given circuit. If the circuit attempts to draw more power (watts) than the circuit is rated for, (load, wire gage used etc.) the fuse will blow to prevent damage to power source.
Well, I hope that all makes sense now. It's the best I can come up with for the moment. If you need more clarification, just ask and we'll try again.
Swez
PS Yes, this is a difficult concept to grasp for some. Since we cannot see electrons as they flow, it is harder to understand the theory behind how it works.
All one really needs to know is that a larger power source (ALT & BAT) can produce more power when asked for it. If more power is not needed, the amount that is needed, is all that is provided.
PSS A quickie for ya... Say a given car engine can produce over 400 HP when we mash on the gas peddle. However, at idle or low speeds, the engine will only deliver as much power (20-80 HP) as needed, based on how much we press on the gas pedal. Same idea when applied to electrical circuits. How's that? SMILE
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 09:01:12
Yes, the water anaology is the best one to use. We must remember that current will travel the path of least resistence, which is why we suggest keeping the factory wiring intact.
As Swez's example explains, regardless of how much amperage an upgraded alt produces, it will not have any negative effects on the vehicles electrical system. What is important, is that the upgraded positive wire is fused between the battery and the alt. even if you are still running the factory alt.
When upgrading to high output alts, we must always upgrade the wiring b/c the factory wiring is not efficient enough. This is kind of how the Big 3 came about, people figured if we up grade the wiring to make a high output alt operate efficiently, why not try upgrading the wiring on your factory alt. There are many references to the Big 3 in every forum now, especially w/ the negative results of capacitors.
less
PS Not all manufacturers use the same testing nor do they come w/ the same outputs, and most are rated at peak output. I have tested 160 amp alts that were only 40-50 amps on idle. When buying a HO alt, always look for the output testing, they are tested before they leave to get an actual rating of the output amperage. A good HO alt will have a built in regulator, and be in the range of 85-95 amps at idle. The 200 amp alt I( recently purchased was rated at 95 on idle w/ an actual of 102 (test RPM's were 1000), at highway speeds, 2000-2500 RPMs, it was rated at 200 amps, produced an actual 215 amps. A good HO alt manufacturer will also include the wiring, or give you diagrams and wire rating to assist in the installation of the upgraded wiring. Mine suggested 4 ga min, 0/1 ga max. and they suggest the optimal wire to be 2 ga w/ an inline 200-250 amp fuse. They also suggest using a battery w/ at least 800 CCA, and highly suggest using a deep cycle battery. So remember, you cannot just buy a HO alt and slap in the car, there are other upgrades that need to bhe done to assure the optimal performance of the alt.
less
only_tuning on 10/9/2005 19:46:28
it's perfectly clear , thanks Swez &Less
i remmember once one of my friends told me that a guy of works in a alts nad Bat shop did a mistake in a replacing a bigger alt on a standerd Bat = result the Bat blowed on him , Dame !!
i'm not sure is it's true or not but is it possiable to happen???
swez on 10/9/2005 22:00:30
Anything is possible... but that's just the headlines. What did the dummy forget to do that caused the problem? My guess, he did not use a regulator or the regulator did not do its job. The other possiblilty was that he reversed polarity on the battery wires and up she went.
Dam = holds back water
Dame = an older woman
Damn = somebody messed up bad hehe
Swez
lessismorespl on 10/9/2005 22:18:28
This is why we always stress 2 important steps in the Big 3; one: always use an inline fuse between alt and the battery(apprx. 18"s from the battery) and 2: always leave the factory wiring intact. What this prevents is exactly that, the battery exploding. Read the tutoral that is linked on here in several posts. The inline fuse will prevent the alt from peaking and over charging the battery on the chance the regulator does go bad in the alt. It is easier to replace the voltage regulator and/or alt than it is to clean up the mess and the possible other damage from an exploding battery.
When upgrading the alt, you must always upgrade the wiring and add an inline fuse. Some people do not use common sense and feel that the fuse serves no real purpose. If you read the section of fuses on BCAE1 (http://www.bcae1.com) it stresses that fuses are one of the most important factors in car audio. Without fuses, we would constantly be replacing amplifiers and other components of the electrical system everytime there was a surge in voltage. Remember, in mobile electronics all vehicles are one big conductor, it is easier than one might think to short something out.
less
thefury on 10/9/2005 22:52:41
Thanks less/Swez for you'r knowledge and input on this important topic. I, for one, now clearly understand how to go about my upgrade thanks to you. Now it's time to "getterdone"
Greg,,
p.s. Got my system installed this weekend and although it is'nt anything spectacular, it sounds awesome. I am very, very happy with the outcome.
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
