i have a few basic connection questions.
i have: a sony XRCA 600X HU (yes i still luv my tapes! :D ); sony XDP766EQ; & a sony CDX-757MX cd changer.
questions are:
1) is the "flow" of connections between the three from the CD changer to the EQ & the HU to the EQ?
in other words:
2) Does the bus control from the CD go to the EQ's "bus In"? or "bus out"?
3) Does the bus control from the HU go to the EQ's "bus in"? or "bus out"?
4) does the CD's audio out (left & right channels) go to the "line in" on the EQ? or does it connect to the HU (along with the bus control)?
hope this makes sense.
kahlil
Replies (39)
swez on 10/1/2005 15:08:40
It's actually more like a group of preamps that are then discetely processed through the EQ (co-processor) to the amplification stage.
Preamp stage buses are typically:
1. Tuner functions (AM/FM signal decoders/detectors and tuning filters)
2. Tape player w/preamp
3. CD/DVD player w/preamp
4. AUX input w/preamp (this is available on most quality HU's)
Next, the EQ is also a form of preamp that shapes (analog or digitally)frequency curves for lows, mids and highs. They can be a series of analog sliders and/or dials or digital type parametrics. (variable "Q" bandwidth features)
From there, the last stage is impedence matching and amplification. Impedence matched for either feeding speaker loads or amplifier inputs like RCA's and balanced line inputs to larger, outboard power amps.
Make sense now?
If you have a 1.5 -2.0 DIN opening in the dash, you can get 1 HU that plays tapes, CD's, Aux inputs and has some degree of EQ functions too. If you desire independent EQing, add that after the HU via RCA outputs to EQ inputs. Then, EQ outputs to outboard amplifiers to power your speakers.
If you tried to integrate all 3 HU's so you'd have AM/FM, tape and CD, there are EQ units that have a primary and AUX input stage preamp. The EQ is the mixing console which allows you to choose which signal source it will process. However, from the EQ/mixer, you need outboard amps to drive your speakers.
Kuppish?
Swez COFFEE
kj on 10/2/2005 04:13:28
sorry swez maybe my post was a bit confusing? i do not have 3 HU's only one.. i was asking how to connect all 3 pieces (HU, EQ & CD) of the audio equipment.
my confusion really comes with the HU only having ONE bus connection ("bus control in.") is this connection in the HU for the EQ or CD ? & if it is for the EQ, then which bus connection on the EQ should it connect to: :bus in" or "bus out"?
swez on 10/2/2005 11:32:16
If your present HU has an AUX input section available, that's where you'll connect the CD player.
As for the EQ, that is the last preamp in the chain. It usually can be fed signals from the HU RCA outs to the EQ's RCA inputs. The EQ outputs, need to be directed to outboard amps.
I cannot find much info on that EQ model. It seems to be discontinued. That HU model seems to have a built in 7 band EQ as well. Here are the details I can find off the net:
http://www.dealsondigital.com/shop/Product.asp?ProdTypeList=4350&Sku=XRCA600X
Your best bet, is to get a copy of the owner/installer manuals for each of the units mentioned and see what type of integration is available from that HU. It looks like the HU already has a tape player and some kind of input section for CD or MD players. That feature may require special cables for proper connectivity.
As for the EQ, this HU has a 7 band EQ already. Therefore, an outboard EQ is not required.
NOTE: I see you were asking for help at CK in Jan 2004 on this system. It looks like we were giving you some options, but w/o good tech support from Sony (which is not likely) you are basically hung out to dry.
May I suggest that you pare down your component choices to the HU and focus on the integration of your CD player to this HU. Sony has a habit of doing things very contrary to the rest of the market. (hoping it will catch on and they will have a corner on that design) It has failed everytime and consumers that bought into their unique system, lose out and have to buy again. (Remember VHS vs BETA VCR tape players system)
Before you buy older products, make sure they will integrate well with what you have already. Saving a few bucks on older products that don't integrate well, is not a good strategy. Cut the losses as best as possible and start a fresh plan.
Swez
kj on 10/3/2005 10:16:46
thx swez.. u mentioned that i discussed this with ck last year? i thought i had brought this up before but could not find that post! how can i find that thread?? i used the search function on this site but it caoming back empty.
swez on 10/3/2005 14:04:24
Oddly enough, I found a link to your CK posts in 2004 off Google. hehe
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g1133_804
Swez
kj on 10/3/2005 20:30:09
THANKS SWEZ!! i knew i had asked this question before! wonder why the forum search function never pulled it up after i tried using several keywords that were in the thread? ??
swez on 10/4/2005 09:11:44
I tried a site search too. Did not get anything useful either. Guess I did not use enough "key words" to trigger a response.
Anyway, what do you plan to do next?
Swez
kj on 10/4/2005 12:41:55
well since the HU only has 1 bus ctl i figured that will have to be for CD. i only hope the EQ does not "need" bus ctl to work.
the EQ has:
front out rca connectors
rear out rca connectors
sub out rca connectors
line in rca connectors
(& 2 bus ctl connectors as i mentioned)
pic of front is here: http://www.thoraudio.net/images/forsale/sony2.jpg
the HU has:
bus audio in rca connectors
audio out rca connectors
& 1 bus ctl connector
so in that case, i will run the "audio out" rca connectors to the EQ's "line in" rca connectors. then run the rca "rear out" & "sub out" connectors to the separate amps. does that seem workable??
trouble is i need a way to connect the front speakers. or will they be connected by default to the HU via the wiring harness? or will i have to connect them to the EQ's front out rca connectors??
swez on 10/4/2005 16:06:43
In most component systems I have read about, the HU is more like a preamp/mixer. It has inputs for various input devices like a CD/MD/MP3 player. In this case, the HU also has some modest amplification to power speakers. Also, from what I read about this HU, it seems to have a 7 band EQ feature in it as well. Can you confirm this part first?
Most outboard EQ units are only RCA in/out devices. They only have preamps. If there is a bus connection, that usually goes back to the HU and is also controlled by the HU.
The RCA outs on most EQ's and such, are there for outboard amp signal feeds. They have a reference output signal voltage between 1-4 volts. It would be most helpful to know that voltage number. This helps to set amp gains properly. However, one can do a pretty good job by ear and an AC voltage meter. (can explain that later)
If you are amping all speakers, best to use a 4/5 channel amp. These have 4 full range amps and a single stage MONO sub amp as well. Most 5 channels amps I have looked at, have about 50 Wrms x 4 to full range speakers and about 200 Wrms to a sub. If you desire more sub power then that, use a separate sub amp with the power rating you desire.
As for the front speakers using the HU amp for power, I would use the rear speakers off the HU amps and power the front speakers from an outboard amp source. You'll want power and EQing features most, up front. That's what you will hear the most.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have any diagrams or setup info on any of these devices? If yes, it would be great to review them if you can DL or scan them to readable formats. You can send what you like to my e-mail addy of: swezdp@yahoo.com If you have yahoo IM, I can be reached there for chats etc. (swezdp) is my yahoo ID on IM. If you have Skype, even better.
ttocs on 10/4/2005 16:11:32
What he said.....
swez on 10/4/2005 16:14:53
O' great man of few words... we all love the bald installer man.
GRIN
Swez
kj on 10/4/2005 19:09:21
1st off ttocs: lmao! a most "efficient" response
swez, thanks a very informative response (as usual). yes i had diagrammed the layout over theweekend before i was going to install it. THAT is when i realized my dilemma. as for the parts there will be no more additions. i am not allowed to buy more (wifey's brow is starting to frown on me) so i have all i can, unless i need to remove something. but i am determined & conident the EQ can still work without the bus ctl.. tho it may be have "limitied functionality".
i will scan that drawing in & email it to u swez.
in answer to your other question: yes, HU does have built in EQ, but not DSP feature that sony XDP-766 has.
so you are suggesting to run my fronts off an amp instead of my rear? because these are the ones heard the most? hmmmm.... interesting thought. i had not considered that. oh well here comes the re-wiring! lol
swez on 10/4/2005 20:26:22
Power the front speakers... Oh Yeah, you bet! (ttocs would say... Yup)
Now I see why you want to use that other EQ. If it works w/o the controller link, why not use it then as post EQ, prior to amp inputs. If it works, you're ahead. If not, we need to dig deeper on that controller link system and see what's needed. If we can get more details on that function and patch cables, may be in like Flynn.
Yes, scan what you have and we'll have a look. If you have a digi camera, take a few key pics of the units from all angles and pass em along as well. That may be helpful too.
Swez
ttocs on 10/5/2005 02:53:14
i think the front and rear on that car are the same size right? Amp the front, the rears will still fill nicely but will not be controlled by the eq. You will still be able to adj the sound to them through the deck, but also be able to brighten the fronts up with the eq and bring the soundstage up nicely........
swez on 10/5/2005 09:16:03
Yup, like he said...
Swez
kj on 10/5/2005 16:48:08
u got email swez!
swez on 10/5/2005 18:36:44
OK, did get 1 diagram off efax reader program and the DSP/EQ .pdf user file. Some better diagrams on how to connect them all together would be most helpful huh?
Oyi Vay... this sucker has more gadgets features and gizzmos than 15 piece jazz band.
It would seem to me, that you will need to connect the CD player to the DSP/EQ with a controller bus cable. The HU looks like it also needs to be connected to the DSP/EQ via a bus out from HU to bus in to EQ. I am hoping the EQ has an input selector so that you can choose between HU/Tape and CD player functions.
This is a very complex system! I am a strong advocate of the KISS plan. (Keep It Simple Sam) This is indeed, not one of them.
Does your HU have a bus line input to control the CD player as well? If yes, the other option I can see, is to feed the CD player bus to HU bus input. Then HU output bus to EQ unit. The EQ is your last preamp and this will feed your amps the proper audio signals per menus in the HU.
Do you have any .pdf docs on that HU and CD changer? Is this CD changer capable of RF signal outputs that can be detected by the FM tuner section of your HU? The clarity is not as good as hardwired units, but this option might be your best bet if the HU does not have a CD changer function.
Comments?
Swez
The next stage, would be HU output RCA's to EQ inputs. The outputs from the EQ unit will feed each amplifier.
If that seems not to work, but your CD changer has a "fob" (remote controller) you may need to use "Y" patch cords or an A/B switch box to manually select HU or CD functions to the DSP/EQ via RCA's. Again, the outputs from DSP/EQ, will feed your amps.
Some high definition pics or .pdf manuals on the HU and CD changer, would be most helpful. Got any handy? I will review the DSP/EQ manual and see what we are dealing with and get back to you.
Swez
swez on 10/5/2005 20:02:10
Found this a bit more helpful too. That HU does have CD/MD integration. Probably via bus input. Do you have the bus cables for CD to HU integrator? If not, contact Sony or look at e-bay and maybe get lucky.
Swez
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swez on 10/5/2005 20:55:04
Possible bus link connector order site:
http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/web/partsResearch.do
Ahhh ha... .pdf file for XR-CA600X HU
http://www.beachautosound.com/cassette_players/Sony_XR-CA600/xrca600.PDF#search='sony%20XR%20CA600X'
This may help too:
http://www.css.ap.sony.com/consumer/template/IMCategory.aspx
I quit looking for now, for that HU manual. This is not phun. Arghhh.... better luck later I hope. Sony is one of the hardest product makers to find older product info on. FROWN
Swez
kj on 10/6/2005 15:31:53
deggone swez! how did u get those sites??? i promise i scoured (ok maybe only googled) the net & could only find some retail or review sites, but no reference sites. dude u amaze me! :)
anyway, sorry about the efax doc. i thought it loaded an onboard viewer with the file. i know that it used to & i know the site used to offer free download of the viewer as well. i've been using efax for several years & i am not aware of any recent changes tho.
as a result, the CD changer is not capable of RF signal outputs. there is no need for it in my system. it will connect to the HU viz the bus ctl & RCA connectors.
nor does the CD changer have a "fob" (remote controller). i dont think there is a need to get to elaborate nor need for other components if i do not have to use the bus control on the EQ.
yes i DO have the bus (unilink) cables for CD to HU integrator. i have a long one (17 feet?) to run from the CD to the HU & a short one (1 foot) that i thoguht was going to be used between the HU & EQ. now it seems that i may not have need for it at all. :(
in short, to simplify this i think i can just run the "audio out" from the HU to the EQ and then run 2 sets of outputs from the EQ to the corresponding amps (sub & fronts).
i think what i reallly need to verify is HOW this bus control works on the EQ or what its purpose is. i'm pretty confident i can p[ass the audio signal from the HU to the EQ via the RCA connectors (i.e., from the HU's "audio out" to the EQ's "line in" )
what do you think? :)
kj
yes this does seem to be more complex than i thought i would be when i got everything. to answer your questions (which may have already been answered by viewing the manuals from the sony site):
the HU does have a bus line input to control the CD player. however this is the ONLY bus connection on the HU. if it had another bus connection then this would be easy. :) (i'd simply run it to the EQ).
swez on 10/7/2005 07:32:04
Got the controller cables from CD player to HU... excellent! That would be the first order of buisness as the HU seems to have an integrator system for that component via bus input at HU. If they do indeed communicate, then you have that feature available.
As for the HU, it only has one pair of RCA outs. (L&R correct?) If yes, that will be your input signal path to the outboard EQ. The EQ has what.. 3 outputs (Front L&R; Rear L&R and sub outs?) These go to your amps as mentioned.
If you wish to use the HU power amps for your rear speakers, that should work. You will not need the rear channel outs on the EQ or an extra pair of amp channels this way. However, some of the EQ functions will be unused by doing this. Can always amp the rear channels later, to take full operation of the EQ features that allow one to set proper staging of all 4 speakers used. (4.1 HT mode)
Yes, I looked a long time (2 hours +) for the info noted earlier. Not enough to make it totally clear on what all components can do or how to set them up properly, but a good start.
The best news here, you have the bus cable links from CD changer to HU. Yes, a long cable is normal as most changers are mounted in the trunk.
Now, the trick is to start your connection process and test for compatibilty. If HU recognizes the CD player and you can use the control menu on the HU to select tracks and discs, half way home bud.
Finally,I would suggest wiring up your system and not hide the wiring just yet. Just run your power wires to amp and drape RCA's and bus signal cable over the seats/floor for now. We are looking for connectivity and possible noise issues. Make sure the HU & EQ have same chassis ground source. The amps will be grounded to the floor pan in trunk or floor pan. Try to keep your RCA signal wires well away from power feed line and CD bus line. Hopefully, you'll get minimal to no noise problems as you go.
Keep me posted OK?
Swez
PS I was able to open that fax program and view its contents. A crude diagram and some cryptic notes, were what I saw. I often use Power Point drawings on such complex integration schemes. Can do block diagrams, text notes and wiring (point to point) illustrations well in PPT program. Give it a try if you have some time. I can then read and edit your work as needed, then resend the ammended diagram(s) w/ additional notes etc.
kj on 10/7/2005 11:19:08
just so that u know. i already have a full, working system in my car. the amps & speakers (described in previous messages) are in place. the existing HU is a clarion proaudio ARX6470 unit & a clarion CD changer (mounted in trunk/hatchback area). so basically, this is swapping out the HU & CD & adding an in-dash EQ.
my responses to your post are embedded below:
Reply Posted: 10/7/2005 07:32:04 by: swez Senior Audio Tech.
Got the controller cables from CD player to HU... excellent! That would be the first order of buisness as the HU seems to have an integrator system for that component via bus input at HU. If they do indeed communicate, then you have that feature available.
*** this is least of my concerns. they are all sony equipment & i had checked well beforehand about HU being compatible with CD changer. so i dont expect any problem there. that being said of course i will check it out before hand.
As for the HU, it only has one pair of RCA outs. (L&R correct?)
If yes, that will be your input signal path to the outboard EQ. The EQ has what.. 3 outputs (Front L&R; Rear L&R and sub outs?) These go to your amps as mentioned.
*** yes, u are correct with both questions
If you wish to use the HU power amps for your rear speakers, that should work. You will not need the rear channel outs on the EQ or an extra pair of amp channels this way. However, some of the EQ functions will be unused by doing this. Can always amp the rear channels later, to take full operation of the EQ features that allow one to set proper staging of all 4 speakers used. (4.1 HT mode)
*** pretty much what i was thinking too was to add another amp later. my 1st concern is to get the new equipment in & working.
Yes, I looked a long time (2 hours +) for the info noted earlier. Not enough to make it totally clear on what all components can do or how to set them up properly, but a good start.
*** impressive! i have been searching over the course of several weeks (various car audio forums, asking owners selling this item on ebay, ...)
The best news here, you have the bus cable links from CD changer to HU. Yes, a long cable is normal as most changers are mounted in the trunk.
*** i know. see note above about existing system. ;)
Now, the trick is to start your connection process and test for compatibilty. If HU recognizes the CD player and you can use the control menu on the HU to select tracks and discs, half way home bud.
*** again i fully expect this recognition to occur. (from note above)
Finally,I would suggest wiring up your system and not hide the wiring just yet. Just run your power wires to amp and drape RCA's and bus signal cable over the seats/floor for now. We are looking for connectivity and possible noise issues. Make sure the HU & EQ have same chassis ground source. The amps will be grounded to the floor pan in trunk or floor pan. Try to keep your RCA signal wires well away from power feed line and CD bus line. Hopefully, you'll get minimal to no noise problems as you go.
*** gotcha!
Keep me posted OK?
Swez
*** will do
PS I was able to open that fax program and view its contents. A crude diagram and some cryptic notes, were what I saw. I often use Power Point drawings on such complex integration schemes. Can do block diagrams, text notes and wiring (point to point) illustrations well in PPT program. Give it a try if you have some time. I can then read and edit your work as needed, then resend the ammended diagram(s) w/ additional notes etc.
*** i sketched that layout with pencil & paper while sitting in the garage, laying all the equipment on bench to figure out what goes where around 1 AM! didnt really have a computer at that moment. :)
i thought u should be able to see the file even without having efax. glad to know u could at least see what i was dealing with?
anyway, t i could clean it up in ppt and use it for communication tool. thanks again soo much for all your help
kahlil
swez on 10/7/2005 12:22:19
KJ,
OK, looks like you are ready for a trial run here. My biggest concern is noise intrusion on this system. Why? Because I read a few forum posts as I researched your needs that pointed to noise problems after they had the units installed. We call this "ground loop" noise.
Most noise can be reduced or eliminated through good grounding of all components, proper placement distance from power line feeds and RCA signal wiring. The other aspect, is matching the amp gains to signal output levels from the components feeding the amps. We'll get into that part when you are ready for it.
It seems time to test what you have now. You can either bench test the system or install the components and go for broke. Since you already have a working system in your vehicle, I would suggest a bench test initially and see what you get. You will need a 12 volt power supply, 1 stereo amplifier and a pair of test speakers. (oh, patch cables too)
The power supply can be a simple car battery and perhaps a charger connected to same for adequate power to run the amp. The HU, CD changer and EQ are all low power devices. A regulated power suppy with variable DC voltage (12-14.5 volts) and maybe 40A. of current would be great, if you have one handy or can borrow one.
No need for an antenna system on the bench test. AM/FM functions are assumed good. What we want to know, will the HU see the CD changer and feed RCA audio signals to the DSP/EQ, amplifier and out to speakers.
Finally, the amp will be connected to full range speakers you may have on hand. You can even use home stereo speaker boxes if you wish. Testing the EQ outputs for:
Front channel: L&R output to amp and audio
Rear Channel: L&R output to amp and audio
Sub channel: MONO bass output amp and woofer
You can also run various setup programs in the HU and DSP/EQ menus, to determine how they function. Initial amp gain settings can also be pre-determined at this point as well.
OK, looks like a go, once you have the basic tools on hand for the bench test sequence. If you need help getting organized, just hollar.
Finally, I understand your drawing on e-fax. I do the same things when mapping out complex details and getting my "ducks in a row". It does not have to be pretty or presentation perfect either. The main thing is to have a well mapped plan, (visual aids) to work from as we go. Men work well with visual aids and schematics. Pics mean a lot more to most guys, as we are "visual" critters. You are on the right track with your initial drawing. A few more tweaks, and it will probably serve as a solid map to your install.
Where to now Kimo-sabe?
Swez
kj on 11/2/2005 12:07:22
swez thanks for your suggestion but i dont have time to test/set this thing up twice so no bench test. :) but i finally got to hook up the entire system this past weekend. in the previous weekends leading up this one, i first re-did my wiring harness (installed a new one); the next weekend hooked up the HU & CD changer to make sure the basic system was wired correctly & everything worked (it worked great with no problems on first try!); and this past weekend i added the EQ to the system with limited success.
i was able to get the EQ powered correctly (comes on when HU is on, passes CD changer controls entered from HU, ...) but & the most important part, NO SOUND came from speakers! :( i tried changing my connectors to every way imaginable, but no luck. i guess i will not be able to use the EQ after all unless you cats have another idea?
kj on 11/3/2005 14:18:31
:(.. well thanks to all you guys for your help. even though install did not go as well as i wanted, i've learned some things here!
thanks again,
kahlil
swez on 11/4/2005 08:54:51
Did you get any responses from that one guy I mentioned in a a previous e-mail?
The only other ways I can see this possibly working, would be to use only the RCA jacks on the EQ. The flow chart for wiring this would look like this:
HU RCA outs to EQ Inputs
EQ outs to amplifier inputs
Hopefully, the CD changer interface control bus can be run direct to the HU. That would give you control features off the HU and one can toggle between AM/FM/Tape and CD.
If that is not possible, wondering if the EQ has an AUX input that allows you to connect the CD player interface, to the EQ and then your outputs from EQ to amplifiers. (this assumes the EQ can be used as a mixer interface and EQ)
What do you think?
Swez
kj on 11/4/2005 11:44:00
i have not contacted that reference you gave me by email yet.. might do so this weekend.
i tried something like your 1st suggestion (HU RCA outs to EQ Inputs
& EQ outs to amplifier inputs), but the EQ is turned on via the bus connection to the HU.
i don't think it can activated (i.e "turned on") by another means. although it does have its own power wiring, it does not have a power on button on the panel. it seems the "on switch" is done via the bus connection. neither is there an AUX input.
kahlil
ttocs on 11/4/2005 13:07:09
you had pwr at the deck an amp, but not at the eq? You might be able to find the pin-outs of that connnector to get the remote turn on, or you might be able to open it up and figure it out.
swez on 11/5/2005 07:19:18
Ttocs, he had power to all 3 units. (HU, CD Changer and EQ) but no audio from HU.
OK, the bus link needs to be connected to HU/EQ for signal and other functions. I am wondering if the EQ needs to be the last audio output device to amplifies here? We know you have HU features integration via bus links, but no audio output with the EQ installed. That leads me to suggest you try getting your preamp audio path like this:
HU out rca's to EQ inputs
EQ outs to amp inputs (LF, RF, LR, RR and sub outs)
Can you give that a try and see what happens?
Swez
PS This is the reason I suggested the long route approach of testing all your options on the bench, before installing the gear. It would have save much time and energy, not having to climb about the car to do all these tests.
This is one of the most complex installs I have witnessed in 6 years on this board. It's even more challenging as you will not get much (if any) help from Sony. Like many other Sony technologies, they take a propritary approach to things. This locks the user into thier products only. Unfortunately, if they do not support older products well, we are left to work things out on our own. That's what really turns me off about Sony!
swez on 11/5/2005 08:07:16
I found a users manual for the EQ model noted. If you don't have a copy, download this and read it carefully. Pages 26 & 27 give a troubleshooting guide.
From my brief scanning of this document, it looks like The EQ is designed to feed amplifiers only, off the RCA output jacks. The RCA input is fed from the HU RCA outs as a source only.
Again, this is a very complex piece of gear. Read the setup instructions carefully and see what you may be missing to date.
Manual link: http://esupport.sony.com/perl/model-find.pl?mdl=%20XDP766EQ
Good luck,
Swez
kj on 11/6/2005 23:45:07
ttocs, swez is right. i had power to all 3 units.
swez the EQ IS the last audio out equipment to the amps. the path u suggested: HU out rca's to EQ inputs & EQ outs to amp inputs (FR, RR and sub outs) IS the path i initially hooked up! i although i dont have front outs, i don't think this should matter should it?? currently i only have amps for my rear speakers & sub, but not one for front speakers. i don't think this should prevent sound from coming out tho.
i don't have a bench & equipment for a good bench test. it's much easier for me to set things up in my car actually. the gear can be placed without installing - no different than doing so on bench. so it's no disadvatange for me or inconvenience :)
i already have a copy of that guide. i think i will reread the pages you mentioned. dangit i must have overlooked that part.
thanks again for some good suggestions guys.
kahlil
(btw, i did make paypal donation to site. i hope that link/source is still good?? )
swez on 11/7/2005 08:29:01
Call me stubborn, but I too want to see this project succeed! Neither of us have a "quitter" mentality, so we search until the answers come.
OK, sound like we are on the same page regarding the EQ being the last link in the audio chain. The questions in my mind... does the EQ function properly and do we understand enough about the integration of this system to have everything correctly connected? (menu selections)
I have an idea... a test to see if the EQ is getting RCA level signals and able to process them back to the amp. Do you have a Walkman or Discman that can be used as a temporary signal source? Here's the plan:
1. Use the headphone ouput as your audio source
2. Buy or make an audio patch cord (dual male RCA's/mini stereo plug)
3. Plug the new source unit into your EQ and try each input pair to determine if there is any output to the amps you now have installed
If you do get output to amps, then there is a problem between the HU outs and EQ. Need to test the HU RCA's for output values. Just run HU RCA out to an amp and insure all outputs are working. If you have output to amps now, there is probably something we are missing in the EQ setup menu. (that assumes the EQ is in full working order)
The donation link should be in working order. It may take a few days for the donation to be processed and added to the site counter. (Admins functions)
Hang in there KJ... we are both very determined people. With a bit more time and reading, this issue can be nailed down.
Swez :-)
PS There seems to be an installer's guide manual out there somewhere. I cannot find it on any Sony sites. You might try contacting Sony Support for a copy or link to that document.
http://esupport.sony.com/EN/feedback/emailform-cons.html
kj on 11/8/2005 00:24:12
thanks guys i appreciate your guidance/patience.. i wanna see this thing work too! lol
i hope this EQ works properly (i did buy it used). i am certain all other components work properly (amps, rca connectors, new HU, ...). if you recall from my earlier msg, the week prior to installing the EQ. i replaced the wiring harness successfully and installed the new HU as well. eveything worked great: HU, CD changer, amps, speakers,...
it was only after adding the EQ di experience problems. i will take your suggestion & run the out put from a portable source to the EQ. i dont have a walkman or similar, but sure i can borrow one... after doing so i will give this idea a try. thanks again swez!
will let u know what results are.
kahlil
swez on 11/8/2005 09:48:30
After looking at this in greater detail, it looks like this system can be used in analog or digital modes. I found a .pdf that explains the connections needed in both A or D configurations.
The EQ is a different model # than the one you have now. However, the wiring system may be similar. Have a look:
http://www.css.ap.sony.com/consumer/template/IMCategory.aspx
Use this product ID number as you look up code to the .pdf file.
" 3-856-153-21 "
I would try the analog system wiring system initially and see if that works. The digital system seems to use different connection hardware then analog, so it's easy to identify which wires go where.
I sure hope this helps!
Swez
kj on 11/8/2005 11:57:03
i went to that site & entered the number you gave for the model number. but got the follwoing error message: "There is no model found for 3-856-153-21".
how/where exactly did you find the info you are referencing?
swez on 11/8/2005 15:54:34
Ahhhh, I see what went wrong here... in the category/model selection boxes,
1. ignore Category box
2. highlight model box and search for XDP-210EQ
3. click go button
4. Wait for the info to load
5. In the blue area, look for that part number I gave you (3-856-153-21)
6. Click on that file or save if you wish (227kB)
7. Check the: "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions stipulated by Sony."
When the file opens, you will get 4 pages of diagrams and info about how to connect this unit to various components. (Yes, it is in several different languages besides English) But I managed to muddle through it. Imagine you will too.
Go for it,
Swez
kj on 11/9/2005 03:56:01
actually i had already donwloaded the installation manual for the xdp210, but will check this path out as well..
kj on 11/9/2005 04:02:54
DANGIT! u know what swez? the link u referred me to is described as the operation manual, but IS actually the INSTALLATION manual. & the other link is described as installation (the one i had downloaded before) but is actually operation manual! friggn sony! lol
i'll take a vcloser look at this tomorrow sometime if i have the chance. just now getting home. its 4 am & i have to be up at 7 :(...needless to say it will be a long day tomorrow.
swez on 11/9/2005 09:16:58
Hehehe
Yeah, I saw the same thing and figured it was a translation problem between Japanese and other languages. Having worked for a Japanese based company (TDK) for a time, I was not surprized to find the old switch-a-roo either.
Hope that file has the same methodology that will apply to your EQ unit. I still THINK the problem is more software then hardware at this point. The menu setup process, may have more to do with the glitches you're getting then wiring. Either way, we're covering the bases.
Get some sleep after your shift bud. Sleep deprivation and working on complex issues of any kind, are not compatible.
Swez
i have: a sony XRCA 600X HU (yes i still luv my tapes! :D ); sony XDP766EQ; & a sony CDX-757MX cd changer.
questions are:
1) is the "flow" of connections between the three from the CD changer to the EQ & the HU to the EQ?
in other words:
2) Does the bus control from the CD go to the EQ's "bus In"? or "bus out"?
3) Does the bus control from the HU go to the EQ's "bus in"? or "bus out"?
4) does the CD's audio out (left & right channels) go to the "line in" on the EQ? or does it connect to the HU (along with the bus control)?
hope this makes sense.
kahlil
Replies (39)
swez on 10/1/2005 15:08:40
It's actually more like a group of preamps that are then discetely processed through the EQ (co-processor) to the amplification stage.
Preamp stage buses are typically:
1. Tuner functions (AM/FM signal decoders/detectors and tuning filters)
2. Tape player w/preamp
3. CD/DVD player w/preamp
4. AUX input w/preamp (this is available on most quality HU's)
Next, the EQ is also a form of preamp that shapes (analog or digitally)frequency curves for lows, mids and highs. They can be a series of analog sliders and/or dials or digital type parametrics. (variable "Q" bandwidth features)
From there, the last stage is impedence matching and amplification. Impedence matched for either feeding speaker loads or amplifier inputs like RCA's and balanced line inputs to larger, outboard power amps.
Make sense now?
If you have a 1.5 -2.0 DIN opening in the dash, you can get 1 HU that plays tapes, CD's, Aux inputs and has some degree of EQ functions too. If you desire independent EQing, add that after the HU via RCA outputs to EQ inputs. Then, EQ outputs to outboard amplifiers to power your speakers.
If you tried to integrate all 3 HU's so you'd have AM/FM, tape and CD, there are EQ units that have a primary and AUX input stage preamp. The EQ is the mixing console which allows you to choose which signal source it will process. However, from the EQ/mixer, you need outboard amps to drive your speakers.
Kuppish?
Swez COFFEE
kj on 10/2/2005 04:13:28
sorry swez maybe my post was a bit confusing? i do not have 3 HU's only one.. i was asking how to connect all 3 pieces (HU, EQ & CD) of the audio equipment.
my confusion really comes with the HU only having ONE bus connection ("bus control in.") is this connection in the HU for the EQ or CD ? & if it is for the EQ, then which bus connection on the EQ should it connect to: :bus in" or "bus out"?
swez on 10/2/2005 11:32:16
If your present HU has an AUX input section available, that's where you'll connect the CD player.
As for the EQ, that is the last preamp in the chain. It usually can be fed signals from the HU RCA outs to the EQ's RCA inputs. The EQ outputs, need to be directed to outboard amps.
I cannot find much info on that EQ model. It seems to be discontinued. That HU model seems to have a built in 7 band EQ as well. Here are the details I can find off the net:
http://www.dealsondigital.com/shop/Product.asp?ProdTypeList=4350&Sku=XRCA600X
Your best bet, is to get a copy of the owner/installer manuals for each of the units mentioned and see what type of integration is available from that HU. It looks like the HU already has a tape player and some kind of input section for CD or MD players. That feature may require special cables for proper connectivity.
As for the EQ, this HU has a 7 band EQ already. Therefore, an outboard EQ is not required.
NOTE: I see you were asking for help at CK in Jan 2004 on this system. It looks like we were giving you some options, but w/o good tech support from Sony (which is not likely) you are basically hung out to dry.
May I suggest that you pare down your component choices to the HU and focus on the integration of your CD player to this HU. Sony has a habit of doing things very contrary to the rest of the market. (hoping it will catch on and they will have a corner on that design) It has failed everytime and consumers that bought into their unique system, lose out and have to buy again. (Remember VHS vs BETA VCR tape players system)
Before you buy older products, make sure they will integrate well with what you have already. Saving a few bucks on older products that don't integrate well, is not a good strategy. Cut the losses as best as possible and start a fresh plan.
Swez
kj on 10/3/2005 10:16:46
thx swez.. u mentioned that i discussed this with ck last year? i thought i had brought this up before but could not find that post! how can i find that thread?? i used the search function on this site but it caoming back empty.
swez on 10/3/2005 14:04:24
Oddly enough, I found a link to your CK posts in 2004 off Google. hehe
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?g1133_804
Swez
kj on 10/3/2005 20:30:09
THANKS SWEZ!! i knew i had asked this question before! wonder why the forum search function never pulled it up after i tried using several keywords that were in the thread? ??
swez on 10/4/2005 09:11:44
I tried a site search too. Did not get anything useful either. Guess I did not use enough "key words" to trigger a response.
Anyway, what do you plan to do next?
Swez
kj on 10/4/2005 12:41:55
well since the HU only has 1 bus ctl i figured that will have to be for CD. i only hope the EQ does not "need" bus ctl to work.
the EQ has:
front out rca connectors
rear out rca connectors
sub out rca connectors
line in rca connectors
(& 2 bus ctl connectors as i mentioned)
pic of front is here: http://www.thoraudio.net/images/forsale/sony2.jpg
the HU has:
bus audio in rca connectors
audio out rca connectors
& 1 bus ctl connector
so in that case, i will run the "audio out" rca connectors to the EQ's "line in" rca connectors. then run the rca "rear out" & "sub out" connectors to the separate amps. does that seem workable??
trouble is i need a way to connect the front speakers. or will they be connected by default to the HU via the wiring harness? or will i have to connect them to the EQ's front out rca connectors??
swez on 10/4/2005 16:06:43
In most component systems I have read about, the HU is more like a preamp/mixer. It has inputs for various input devices like a CD/MD/MP3 player. In this case, the HU also has some modest amplification to power speakers. Also, from what I read about this HU, it seems to have a 7 band EQ feature in it as well. Can you confirm this part first?
Most outboard EQ units are only RCA in/out devices. They only have preamps. If there is a bus connection, that usually goes back to the HU and is also controlled by the HU.
The RCA outs on most EQ's and such, are there for outboard amp signal feeds. They have a reference output signal voltage between 1-4 volts. It would be most helpful to know that voltage number. This helps to set amp gains properly. However, one can do a pretty good job by ear and an AC voltage meter. (can explain that later)
If you are amping all speakers, best to use a 4/5 channel amp. These have 4 full range amps and a single stage MONO sub amp as well. Most 5 channels amps I have looked at, have about 50 Wrms x 4 to full range speakers and about 200 Wrms to a sub. If you desire more sub power then that, use a separate sub amp with the power rating you desire.
As for the front speakers using the HU amp for power, I would use the rear speakers off the HU amps and power the front speakers from an outboard amp source. You'll want power and EQing features most, up front. That's what you will hear the most.
Comments?
Swez
PS Do you have any diagrams or setup info on any of these devices? If yes, it would be great to review them if you can DL or scan them to readable formats. You can send what you like to my e-mail addy of: swezdp@yahoo.com If you have yahoo IM, I can be reached there for chats etc. (swezdp) is my yahoo ID on IM. If you have Skype, even better.
ttocs on 10/4/2005 16:11:32
What he said.....
swez on 10/4/2005 16:14:53
O' great man of few words... we all love the bald installer man.
GRIN
Swez
kj on 10/4/2005 19:09:21
1st off ttocs: lmao! a most "efficient" response
swez, thanks a very informative response (as usual). yes i had diagrammed the layout over theweekend before i was going to install it. THAT is when i realized my dilemma. as for the parts there will be no more additions. i am not allowed to buy more (wifey's brow is starting to frown on me) so i have all i can, unless i need to remove something. but i am determined & conident the EQ can still work without the bus ctl.. tho it may be have "limitied functionality".
i will scan that drawing in & email it to u swez.
in answer to your other question: yes, HU does have built in EQ, but not DSP feature that sony XDP-766 has.
so you are suggesting to run my fronts off an amp instead of my rear? because these are the ones heard the most? hmmmm.... interesting thought. i had not considered that. oh well here comes the re-wiring! lol
swez on 10/4/2005 20:26:22
Power the front speakers... Oh Yeah, you bet! (ttocs would say... Yup)
Now I see why you want to use that other EQ. If it works w/o the controller link, why not use it then as post EQ, prior to amp inputs. If it works, you're ahead. If not, we need to dig deeper on that controller link system and see what's needed. If we can get more details on that function and patch cables, may be in like Flynn.
Yes, scan what you have and we'll have a look. If you have a digi camera, take a few key pics of the units from all angles and pass em along as well. That may be helpful too.
Swez
ttocs on 10/5/2005 02:53:14
i think the front and rear on that car are the same size right? Amp the front, the rears will still fill nicely but will not be controlled by the eq. You will still be able to adj the sound to them through the deck, but also be able to brighten the fronts up with the eq and bring the soundstage up nicely........
swez on 10/5/2005 09:16:03
Yup, like he said...
Swez
kj on 10/5/2005 16:48:08
u got email swez!
swez on 10/5/2005 18:36:44
OK, did get 1 diagram off efax reader program and the DSP/EQ .pdf user file. Some better diagrams on how to connect them all together would be most helpful huh?
Oyi Vay... this sucker has more gadgets features and gizzmos than 15 piece jazz band.
It would seem to me, that you will need to connect the CD player to the DSP/EQ with a controller bus cable. The HU looks like it also needs to be connected to the DSP/EQ via a bus out from HU to bus in to EQ. I am hoping the EQ has an input selector so that you can choose between HU/Tape and CD player functions.
This is a very complex system! I am a strong advocate of the KISS plan. (Keep It Simple Sam) This is indeed, not one of them.
Does your HU have a bus line input to control the CD player as well? If yes, the other option I can see, is to feed the CD player bus to HU bus input. Then HU output bus to EQ unit. The EQ is your last preamp and this will feed your amps the proper audio signals per menus in the HU.
Do you have any .pdf docs on that HU and CD changer? Is this CD changer capable of RF signal outputs that can be detected by the FM tuner section of your HU? The clarity is not as good as hardwired units, but this option might be your best bet if the HU does not have a CD changer function.
Comments?
Swez
The next stage, would be HU output RCA's to EQ inputs. The outputs from the EQ unit will feed each amplifier.
If that seems not to work, but your CD changer has a "fob" (remote controller) you may need to use "Y" patch cords or an A/B switch box to manually select HU or CD functions to the DSP/EQ via RCA's. Again, the outputs from DSP/EQ, will feed your amps.
Some high definition pics or .pdf manuals on the HU and CD changer, would be most helpful. Got any handy? I will review the DSP/EQ manual and see what we are dealing with and get back to you.
Swez
swez on 10/5/2005 20:02:10
Found this a bit more helpful too. That HU does have CD/MD integration. Probably via bus input. Do you have the bus cables for CD to HU integrator? If not, contact Sony or look at e-bay and maybe get lucky.
Swez
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swez on 10/5/2005 20:55:04
Possible bus link connector order site:
http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/web/partsResearch.do
Ahhh ha... .pdf file for XR-CA600X HU
http://www.beachautosound.com/cassette_players/Sony_XR-CA600/xrca600.PDF#search='sony%20XR%20CA600X'
This may help too:
http://www.css.ap.sony.com/consumer/template/IMCategory.aspx
I quit looking for now, for that HU manual. This is not phun. Arghhh.... better luck later I hope. Sony is one of the hardest product makers to find older product info on. FROWN
Swez
kj on 10/6/2005 15:31:53
deggone swez! how did u get those sites??? i promise i scoured (ok maybe only googled) the net & could only find some retail or review sites, but no reference sites. dude u amaze me! :)
anyway, sorry about the efax doc. i thought it loaded an onboard viewer with the file. i know that it used to & i know the site used to offer free download of the viewer as well. i've been using efax for several years & i am not aware of any recent changes tho.
as a result, the CD changer is not capable of RF signal outputs. there is no need for it in my system. it will connect to the HU viz the bus ctl & RCA connectors.
nor does the CD changer have a "fob" (remote controller). i dont think there is a need to get to elaborate nor need for other components if i do not have to use the bus control on the EQ.
yes i DO have the bus (unilink) cables for CD to HU integrator. i have a long one (17 feet?) to run from the CD to the HU & a short one (1 foot) that i thoguht was going to be used between the HU & EQ. now it seems that i may not have need for it at all. :(
in short, to simplify this i think i can just run the "audio out" from the HU to the EQ and then run 2 sets of outputs from the EQ to the corresponding amps (sub & fronts).
i think what i reallly need to verify is HOW this bus control works on the EQ or what its purpose is. i'm pretty confident i can p[ass the audio signal from the HU to the EQ via the RCA connectors (i.e., from the HU's "audio out" to the EQ's "line in" )
what do you think? :)
kj
yes this does seem to be more complex than i thought i would be when i got everything. to answer your questions (which may have already been answered by viewing the manuals from the sony site):
the HU does have a bus line input to control the CD player. however this is the ONLY bus connection on the HU. if it had another bus connection then this would be easy. :) (i'd simply run it to the EQ).
swez on 10/7/2005 07:32:04
Got the controller cables from CD player to HU... excellent! That would be the first order of buisness as the HU seems to have an integrator system for that component via bus input at HU. If they do indeed communicate, then you have that feature available.
As for the HU, it only has one pair of RCA outs. (L&R correct?) If yes, that will be your input signal path to the outboard EQ. The EQ has what.. 3 outputs (Front L&R; Rear L&R and sub outs?) These go to your amps as mentioned.
If you wish to use the HU power amps for your rear speakers, that should work. You will not need the rear channel outs on the EQ or an extra pair of amp channels this way. However, some of the EQ functions will be unused by doing this. Can always amp the rear channels later, to take full operation of the EQ features that allow one to set proper staging of all 4 speakers used. (4.1 HT mode)
Yes, I looked a long time (2 hours +) for the info noted earlier. Not enough to make it totally clear on what all components can do or how to set them up properly, but a good start.
The best news here, you have the bus cable links from CD changer to HU. Yes, a long cable is normal as most changers are mounted in the trunk.
Now, the trick is to start your connection process and test for compatibilty. If HU recognizes the CD player and you can use the control menu on the HU to select tracks and discs, half way home bud.
Finally,I would suggest wiring up your system and not hide the wiring just yet. Just run your power wires to amp and drape RCA's and bus signal cable over the seats/floor for now. We are looking for connectivity and possible noise issues. Make sure the HU & EQ have same chassis ground source. The amps will be grounded to the floor pan in trunk or floor pan. Try to keep your RCA signal wires well away from power feed line and CD bus line. Hopefully, you'll get minimal to no noise problems as you go.
Keep me posted OK?
Swez
PS I was able to open that fax program and view its contents. A crude diagram and some cryptic notes, were what I saw. I often use Power Point drawings on such complex integration schemes. Can do block diagrams, text notes and wiring (point to point) illustrations well in PPT program. Give it a try if you have some time. I can then read and edit your work as needed, then resend the ammended diagram(s) w/ additional notes etc.
kj on 10/7/2005 11:19:08
just so that u know. i already have a full, working system in my car. the amps & speakers (described in previous messages) are in place. the existing HU is a clarion proaudio ARX6470 unit & a clarion CD changer (mounted in trunk/hatchback area). so basically, this is swapping out the HU & CD & adding an in-dash EQ.
my responses to your post are embedded below:
Reply Posted: 10/7/2005 07:32:04 by: swez Senior Audio Tech.
Got the controller cables from CD player to HU... excellent! That would be the first order of buisness as the HU seems to have an integrator system for that component via bus input at HU. If they do indeed communicate, then you have that feature available.
*** this is least of my concerns. they are all sony equipment & i had checked well beforehand about HU being compatible with CD changer. so i dont expect any problem there. that being said of course i will check it out before hand.
As for the HU, it only has one pair of RCA outs. (L&R correct?)
If yes, that will be your input signal path to the outboard EQ. The EQ has what.. 3 outputs (Front L&R; Rear L&R and sub outs?) These go to your amps as mentioned.
*** yes, u are correct with both questions
If you wish to use the HU power amps for your rear speakers, that should work. You will not need the rear channel outs on the EQ or an extra pair of amp channels this way. However, some of the EQ functions will be unused by doing this. Can always amp the rear channels later, to take full operation of the EQ features that allow one to set proper staging of all 4 speakers used. (4.1 HT mode)
*** pretty much what i was thinking too was to add another amp later. my 1st concern is to get the new equipment in & working.
Yes, I looked a long time (2 hours +) for the info noted earlier. Not enough to make it totally clear on what all components can do or how to set them up properly, but a good start.
*** impressive! i have been searching over the course of several weeks (various car audio forums, asking owners selling this item on ebay, ...)
The best news here, you have the bus cable links from CD changer to HU. Yes, a long cable is normal as most changers are mounted in the trunk.
*** i know. see note above about existing system. ;)
Now, the trick is to start your connection process and test for compatibilty. If HU recognizes the CD player and you can use the control menu on the HU to select tracks and discs, half way home bud.
*** again i fully expect this recognition to occur. (from note above)
Finally,I would suggest wiring up your system and not hide the wiring just yet. Just run your power wires to amp and drape RCA's and bus signal cable over the seats/floor for now. We are looking for connectivity and possible noise issues. Make sure the HU & EQ have same chassis ground source. The amps will be grounded to the floor pan in trunk or floor pan. Try to keep your RCA signal wires well away from power feed line and CD bus line. Hopefully, you'll get minimal to no noise problems as you go.
*** gotcha!
Keep me posted OK?
Swez
*** will do
PS I was able to open that fax program and view its contents. A crude diagram and some cryptic notes, were what I saw. I often use Power Point drawings on such complex integration schemes. Can do block diagrams, text notes and wiring (point to point) illustrations well in PPT program. Give it a try if you have some time. I can then read and edit your work as needed, then resend the ammended diagram(s) w/ additional notes etc.
*** i sketched that layout with pencil & paper while sitting in the garage, laying all the equipment on bench to figure out what goes where around 1 AM! didnt really have a computer at that moment. :)
i thought u should be able to see the file even without having efax. glad to know u could at least see what i was dealing with?
anyway, t i could clean it up in ppt and use it for communication tool. thanks again soo much for all your help
kahlil
swez on 10/7/2005 12:22:19
KJ,
OK, looks like you are ready for a trial run here. My biggest concern is noise intrusion on this system. Why? Because I read a few forum posts as I researched your needs that pointed to noise problems after they had the units installed. We call this "ground loop" noise.
Most noise can be reduced or eliminated through good grounding of all components, proper placement distance from power line feeds and RCA signal wiring. The other aspect, is matching the amp gains to signal output levels from the components feeding the amps. We'll get into that part when you are ready for it.
It seems time to test what you have now. You can either bench test the system or install the components and go for broke. Since you already have a working system in your vehicle, I would suggest a bench test initially and see what you get. You will need a 12 volt power supply, 1 stereo amplifier and a pair of test speakers. (oh, patch cables too)
The power supply can be a simple car battery and perhaps a charger connected to same for adequate power to run the amp. The HU, CD changer and EQ are all low power devices. A regulated power suppy with variable DC voltage (12-14.5 volts) and maybe 40A. of current would be great, if you have one handy or can borrow one.
No need for an antenna system on the bench test. AM/FM functions are assumed good. What we want to know, will the HU see the CD changer and feed RCA audio signals to the DSP/EQ, amplifier and out to speakers.
Finally, the amp will be connected to full range speakers you may have on hand. You can even use home stereo speaker boxes if you wish. Testing the EQ outputs for:
Front channel: L&R output to amp and audio
Rear Channel: L&R output to amp and audio
Sub channel: MONO bass output amp and woofer
You can also run various setup programs in the HU and DSP/EQ menus, to determine how they function. Initial amp gain settings can also be pre-determined at this point as well.
OK, looks like a go, once you have the basic tools on hand for the bench test sequence. If you need help getting organized, just hollar.
Finally, I understand your drawing on e-fax. I do the same things when mapping out complex details and getting my "ducks in a row". It does not have to be pretty or presentation perfect either. The main thing is to have a well mapped plan, (visual aids) to work from as we go. Men work well with visual aids and schematics. Pics mean a lot more to most guys, as we are "visual" critters. You are on the right track with your initial drawing. A few more tweaks, and it will probably serve as a solid map to your install.
Where to now Kimo-sabe?
Swez
kj on 11/2/2005 12:07:22
swez thanks for your suggestion but i dont have time to test/set this thing up twice so no bench test. :) but i finally got to hook up the entire system this past weekend. in the previous weekends leading up this one, i first re-did my wiring harness (installed a new one); the next weekend hooked up the HU & CD changer to make sure the basic system was wired correctly & everything worked (it worked great with no problems on first try!); and this past weekend i added the EQ to the system with limited success.
i was able to get the EQ powered correctly (comes on when HU is on, passes CD changer controls entered from HU, ...) but & the most important part, NO SOUND came from speakers! :( i tried changing my connectors to every way imaginable, but no luck. i guess i will not be able to use the EQ after all unless you cats have another idea?
kj on 11/3/2005 14:18:31
:(.. well thanks to all you guys for your help. even though install did not go as well as i wanted, i've learned some things here!
thanks again,
kahlil
swez on 11/4/2005 08:54:51
Did you get any responses from that one guy I mentioned in a a previous e-mail?
The only other ways I can see this possibly working, would be to use only the RCA jacks on the EQ. The flow chart for wiring this would look like this:
HU RCA outs to EQ Inputs
EQ outs to amplifier inputs
Hopefully, the CD changer interface control bus can be run direct to the HU. That would give you control features off the HU and one can toggle between AM/FM/Tape and CD.
If that is not possible, wondering if the EQ has an AUX input that allows you to connect the CD player interface, to the EQ and then your outputs from EQ to amplifiers. (this assumes the EQ can be used as a mixer interface and EQ)
What do you think?
Swez
kj on 11/4/2005 11:44:00
i have not contacted that reference you gave me by email yet.. might do so this weekend.
i tried something like your 1st suggestion (HU RCA outs to EQ Inputs
& EQ outs to amplifier inputs), but the EQ is turned on via the bus connection to the HU.
i don't think it can activated (i.e "turned on") by another means. although it does have its own power wiring, it does not have a power on button on the panel. it seems the "on switch" is done via the bus connection. neither is there an AUX input.
kahlil
ttocs on 11/4/2005 13:07:09
you had pwr at the deck an amp, but not at the eq? You might be able to find the pin-outs of that connnector to get the remote turn on, or you might be able to open it up and figure it out.
swez on 11/5/2005 07:19:18
Ttocs, he had power to all 3 units. (HU, CD Changer and EQ) but no audio from HU.
OK, the bus link needs to be connected to HU/EQ for signal and other functions. I am wondering if the EQ needs to be the last audio output device to amplifies here? We know you have HU features integration via bus links, but no audio output with the EQ installed. That leads me to suggest you try getting your preamp audio path like this:
HU out rca's to EQ inputs
EQ outs to amp inputs (LF, RF, LR, RR and sub outs)
Can you give that a try and see what happens?
Swez
PS This is the reason I suggested the long route approach of testing all your options on the bench, before installing the gear. It would have save much time and energy, not having to climb about the car to do all these tests.
This is one of the most complex installs I have witnessed in 6 years on this board. It's even more challenging as you will not get much (if any) help from Sony. Like many other Sony technologies, they take a propritary approach to things. This locks the user into thier products only. Unfortunately, if they do not support older products well, we are left to work things out on our own. That's what really turns me off about Sony!
swez on 11/5/2005 08:07:16
I found a users manual for the EQ model noted. If you don't have a copy, download this and read it carefully. Pages 26 & 27 give a troubleshooting guide.
From my brief scanning of this document, it looks like The EQ is designed to feed amplifiers only, off the RCA output jacks. The RCA input is fed from the HU RCA outs as a source only.
Again, this is a very complex piece of gear. Read the setup instructions carefully and see what you may be missing to date.
Manual link: http://esupport.sony.com/perl/model-find.pl?mdl=%20XDP766EQ
Good luck,
Swez
kj on 11/6/2005 23:45:07
ttocs, swez is right. i had power to all 3 units.
swez the EQ IS the last audio out equipment to the amps. the path u suggested: HU out rca's to EQ inputs & EQ outs to amp inputs (FR, RR and sub outs) IS the path i initially hooked up! i although i dont have front outs, i don't think this should matter should it?? currently i only have amps for my rear speakers & sub, but not one for front speakers. i don't think this should prevent sound from coming out tho.
i don't have a bench & equipment for a good bench test. it's much easier for me to set things up in my car actually. the gear can be placed without installing - no different than doing so on bench. so it's no disadvatange for me or inconvenience :)
i already have a copy of that guide. i think i will reread the pages you mentioned. dangit i must have overlooked that part.
thanks again for some good suggestions guys.
kahlil
(btw, i did make paypal donation to site. i hope that link/source is still good?? )
swez on 11/7/2005 08:29:01
Call me stubborn, but I too want to see this project succeed! Neither of us have a "quitter" mentality, so we search until the answers come.
OK, sound like we are on the same page regarding the EQ being the last link in the audio chain. The questions in my mind... does the EQ function properly and do we understand enough about the integration of this system to have everything correctly connected? (menu selections)
I have an idea... a test to see if the EQ is getting RCA level signals and able to process them back to the amp. Do you have a Walkman or Discman that can be used as a temporary signal source? Here's the plan:
1. Use the headphone ouput as your audio source
2. Buy or make an audio patch cord (dual male RCA's/mini stereo plug)
3. Plug the new source unit into your EQ and try each input pair to determine if there is any output to the amps you now have installed
If you do get output to amps, then there is a problem between the HU outs and EQ. Need to test the HU RCA's for output values. Just run HU RCA out to an amp and insure all outputs are working. If you have output to amps now, there is probably something we are missing in the EQ setup menu. (that assumes the EQ is in full working order)
The donation link should be in working order. It may take a few days for the donation to be processed and added to the site counter. (Admins functions)
Hang in there KJ... we are both very determined people. With a bit more time and reading, this issue can be nailed down.
Swez :-)
PS There seems to be an installer's guide manual out there somewhere. I cannot find it on any Sony sites. You might try contacting Sony Support for a copy or link to that document.
http://esupport.sony.com/EN/feedback/emailform-cons.html
kj on 11/8/2005 00:24:12
thanks guys i appreciate your guidance/patience.. i wanna see this thing work too! lol
i hope this EQ works properly (i did buy it used). i am certain all other components work properly (amps, rca connectors, new HU, ...). if you recall from my earlier msg, the week prior to installing the EQ. i replaced the wiring harness successfully and installed the new HU as well. eveything worked great: HU, CD changer, amps, speakers,...
it was only after adding the EQ di experience problems. i will take your suggestion & run the out put from a portable source to the EQ. i dont have a walkman or similar, but sure i can borrow one... after doing so i will give this idea a try. thanks again swez!
will let u know what results are.
kahlil
swez on 11/8/2005 09:48:30
After looking at this in greater detail, it looks like this system can be used in analog or digital modes. I found a .pdf that explains the connections needed in both A or D configurations.
The EQ is a different model # than the one you have now. However, the wiring system may be similar. Have a look:
http://www.css.ap.sony.com/consumer/template/IMCategory.aspx
Use this product ID number as you look up code to the .pdf file.
" 3-856-153-21 "
I would try the analog system wiring system initially and see if that works. The digital system seems to use different connection hardware then analog, so it's easy to identify which wires go where.
I sure hope this helps!
Swez
kj on 11/8/2005 11:57:03
i went to that site & entered the number you gave for the model number. but got the follwoing error message: "There is no model found for 3-856-153-21".
how/where exactly did you find the info you are referencing?
swez on 11/8/2005 15:54:34
Ahhhh, I see what went wrong here... in the category/model selection boxes,
1. ignore Category box
2. highlight model box and search for XDP-210EQ
3. click go button
4. Wait for the info to load
5. In the blue area, look for that part number I gave you (3-856-153-21)
6. Click on that file or save if you wish (227kB)
7. Check the: "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions stipulated by Sony."
When the file opens, you will get 4 pages of diagrams and info about how to connect this unit to various components. (Yes, it is in several different languages besides English) But I managed to muddle through it. Imagine you will too.
Go for it,
Swez
kj on 11/9/2005 03:56:01
actually i had already donwloaded the installation manual for the xdp210, but will check this path out as well..
kj on 11/9/2005 04:02:54
DANGIT! u know what swez? the link u referred me to is described as the operation manual, but IS actually the INSTALLATION manual. & the other link is described as installation (the one i had downloaded before) but is actually operation manual! friggn sony! lol
i'll take a vcloser look at this tomorrow sometime if i have the chance. just now getting home. its 4 am & i have to be up at 7 :(...needless to say it will be a long day tomorrow.
swez on 11/9/2005 09:16:58
Hehehe
Yeah, I saw the same thing and figured it was a translation problem between Japanese and other languages. Having worked for a Japanese based company (TDK) for a time, I was not surprized to find the old switch-a-roo either.
Hope that file has the same methodology that will apply to your EQ unit. I still THINK the problem is more software then hardware at this point. The menu setup process, may have more to do with the glitches you're getting then wiring. Either way, we're covering the bases.
Get some sleep after your shift bud. Sleep deprivation and working on complex issues of any kind, are not compatible.
Swez
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