My brother is restoring a Volvo 122s and I would like to help him update the antiquated stereo system.
Currently the volvo has the original Becker mono radio with just a single speaker.
I think I would like to keep the radio since it looks nice in the dash and my brother isn't going to use the radio very often.
My thinking is is to put in a new amplifier and connect the radio to the amplifier with a LOC. Can I just split the mono into two stereo channels and feed that into the amp? In addition I would like to have an auxiliary input so my brother could use his portable cd or mp3 player to play music in the car. What type of amp should I use to provide the auxilliary input, and how would I switch between the radio and aux input?
Also when using a separate amplifier and auxiliary input where is the volume controlled?
What do people suggest for number of speakers. The car is a station wagon and fairly long. I am concerned more about audio fidelity then big base. Would four good quality two or three way speakers be the best, or do I need separate sub woofers to provide any depth? Any suggestions on companies for speakers and amps?
I am thinking of just using the auxiliary input since it will save money on purchasing a head unit, which has a cd player. However, am I going to sacrifice a great deal of audio quality using the aux input for playing cds and mp3s?
thanks,
Jesse
Replies (8)
swez on 09/12/2005 10:34:57
Since we are dealing with a MONO source radio to begin with and like to keep it intact, is best to leave it as is and use a separate system to provide true stereo fidelity and aux features.
The only good option (for real fidelity and stereo performance) is to use a 2nd Aftermarket HU with the features desired. (AM/FM/CD & MP3) One does not have to spend big money for this either. It can even be hidden and use a remote device to activate and control it. (A very handy feature)
As for speakers, this is where the fidelity comes from. Quality Coaxials are good and Component speakers (separate tweeter, woofer and passive crossover network) worksgreat for the front stage. (door panels) The rear stage can be rear door panels or speakers mounted in the wagon stowage area. The challenge will be to locate the new speakers in such a way, that they are well hidden and still give good stereo imaging and good frequency response.
About bass, a set of 6.5-8.0" woofers will do a very good job at giving us above average performance below 100 Hz. Best when used in the back of the vehicle. A small sealed enclosure will help a lot for low end bass at decent listening levels. An integrated enclosure can support both a sub woofer and full range mids/tweets. Here, a single woofer is fine.
Try to picture a 5.1 HT system setup, in this vehicle. Front speakers (L&R) are the front stage. Rear speakers (L&R) are the rear stage and a powered sub for bass.
Before going any deeper, give some feedback as to how you see this install at the end of it all. No sense going on a long post, until we know more about your intent. Comments?
Swez
lollipop on 09/13/2005 08:22:00
Do you think purchasing a new head unit is absolutely necessary?
Would it be possible to just to have an auxiliary input and mono radio available, and them switch between them somehow? What piece of equipment would provide the auxiliary input: amp, equalizer, ...?
I just figure without the money spent on the head unit I could purchase a better amplifier and speakers.
I don't think I want to leave the existing mono speaker in place since I would like to use that hole in back of the vehicle. Also even though the sound will be in mono I think it would be nice to hear that signal over the new speakers.
If I envision the vehicle as 5.1 HT system would I achieve excellent sound for the front two passengers while sacrificing sound quality for those passengers in the middle seats and rear seats? Wouldn't the people in the rear just be inundated by the base speakers?
I assume I will save a considerable amount of money going with good quality coaxials are any brands recommended by the clubknowledge users?
To answer your final question, at this point I envision speakers in the front middle, and possibly in the back if money permits. If possible I would like to keep the speakers in the doors or under the dash. I am concerned that any external boxes will be kicked and damaged by the passengers in the car.
Though I am trying to keep the budget under control, I am willing to spend more money if buying a higher quality piece of equipment results in much better sound quality.
thanks for the help,
Jesse
swez on 09/13/2005 14:14:50
There is not really much one can do with the stock MONO radio in this vehicle as is. It cannot deliver a decent fidelity signal due to its design limitations. If you want high fidelity audio, have to use devices that can deliver it. An AUX feature is almost out of the question here. Yes, one can use an FM type transmitter, but we still have a MONO signal at the output. Nuff said on that one.
Better amps and speakers will do nothing good for a MONO HU that does not have the ability to get the most out of them. Yes, it can make the system louder. But, all things considered, it's like an AM radio. Not much can be done to improve on an AM radio signal.
That speaker hole in back you mentioned, where is it located and what size is it? If there is enough space back there, it may be a good location for a single woofer. Depends on what space is there now and how well a decent woofer can be mounted in that location.
Speakers: A good pair of speakers up front are the key to high quality sound. Doors are generally a good spot for full range Coaxials or Component speakers. Dash speakers can do a decent job as well. However, don't expect good lows from a 4" midrange. They just don't have the cone area to reproduce signals below about 200 Hz. The 5.25" & 6.5" cones can do a better job at handling lows. But, they usually need to go in the doors or custom kick panels made for them.
The rear stage speakers are usually a good pair of Coaxials mounted in rear doors or back panels of the tailgate. Can give some suggestions on brands and such, when you provide a budget figure.
People in the rear seats don't have to be blasted out of their seats. This is where a good HU with fader controls comes in handy. The listening envioronment changes as more bodies are added to a car as passengers. However, the center seat person will usually enjoy the best sound possible. They are in the "sweet spot". However, several of the newer HU's have time delay systems that allow the driver to feel like they are in the "sweet spot". These models are not cheap nor for the low budget installs.
I can suggest a great amp for this install. It's a 5 channel amp. Four amp channels are full range and 1 sub channel. It has loads of flexibilty for input configurations. Very nice electronics to control it too. The Alpine MRV-F450 has it all. Here's some specs on it:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-iJPZ75OP5iq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500MRVF450&search=Alpine+F450
It can be had off e-bay for about $200.00.
Swez (A.K.A. Old Man Audio)
PS I really am "pretty limited" in my knowledge of hi-fi applications. Only have 30 years experience in Pro Audio, Home Hi-fi and now Car Audio. Have installed a few systems in my day and have been on this board for 6 years now. I cannot count how many folks I have lead through well above average car audio installs and planning sessions. (Well over 200 by now) In short, am giving you my best thoughts on how to get to a great sounding system. Work the plan, organize a goal and budget, then we can help get you there.
Victor on 09/13/2005 15:39:22
Hey dave, i am not sure, but what if a mono signal split into 2 is fed to a Surround Amplifier with integrated Dolby Digital® and DTS® Decoder, can the amp processor decode into 5.1 Ch from a mono input???
but if that possible then this is a very good processor as well as amp by blau, might have a look at it, its expensive out here in india, dunno about prices there.
http://www.blaupunkt.co.in/7607792047_main.asp
If this cud help..
Victor...
lollipop on 09/14/2005 08:21:40
Swez,
I really appreciate all the help you are providing, I am fully confident that in regards to car audio you are much more capable and knowledgeable than myself. I am just trying to gain some understanding of the subject because I find it interesting and like to understand a subject I am working with.
I realize that the audio fidelity of the mono radio output is poor. However I really don't care about the audio fidelity of the radio, it will only be used for traffic information and sports games.
When you say 'An AUX feature is almost out of the question here' what do you mean? I would really like an aux input for things like mp3 players, minidisc players, etc? Is the sound quality from an aux input going to be terrible? Can anybody with and aux input share experiences? I thought perhaps I could save some money by using the aux input for listening to cds as well.
Would it be possible to use something like this:
Clarion EQS744 - http://www.teamclarion.com/sharedwebdbs/clarionsupport.nsf/b519d112bdcca8b588256a630071fab1/c5e47429e62528c488256e0c007b1283/$FILE/EQS744%20Owner's%20Manual.pdf
And then couple it with an amplifier like the Alpine MRV-F450, which you mentioned? I figure I would feed the radio into the main input and use the aux input for discmans and mp3 players.
thanks for all the help,
Jesse
swez on 09/14/2005 13:56:16
Lollipop,
I had a chance to chat w/ Victor on this one last night. As we chatted, it hit me that a unit similar to what you have linked, could be used as a mixing preamp with main and Aux inputs. In this case, the AUX input section would be linked to your MONO radio. The main RCA inputs can be used to integrate with MP3 player or other add ons. (or visa-versa)
The trick here, you will need to bring the voltage off the speaker output of present radio, (HU) down to a usable level and RCA jacks going into the Clarion processor. This is called a Line Out Converter. (LOC) This device takes nominal speaker voltages (8-12 volts) down to 2-4 volt range. That will work as you have mentioned. This will work:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?c=1&oid=89601&key=48246&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&BV_SessionID=@@@@0075632624.1126717155@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdfaddfjkdmiglcfngcfkmdffhdfii.0
Have worked with several folks, employing the Audiobahn AEQ6 or Audio Control Three.1 and Four.1i. Same idea as Clarion mentioned, with a Line Driver feature added. The wiring diagram in the Clarion manual shows it all in wiring diagram from sources to processor to amps.
OK, we are now on the same page here. I was interpreting the "AUX" to be used within your present MONO HU. That is not easily done nor advisable. However, an outboard processor/mixer will indeed work here. The main thing to note, you will get great fidelity on MP3/CD players. But the HU signal feed may be much less so and MONO only. If that is acceptable for your application, this plan of attack will indeed work. We just had a communication gap to bridge. You are on the right track with that Clarion unit mentioned.
Where to next? (speakers?)
Summary to date:
1. Mono HU for AM/FM signals
2. Signal processor (preamp mixer) Clarion unit is fine
3. Alpine MRV-F450 (5 channel amp)
4. Speakers (need some budget #'s and sizes next)
5. Subwoofer option
Swez USFLAG
PS That Clarion link, stretched the page and now, hard to read. Can you edit it out and just leave the model number info. My LOC may have to be edited as well. This will return ther page to normal format. Thanks!
lollipop on 09/18/2005 11:23:05
Everything is starting to shape up nicely, thanks for the help,
I am flying out to Colorado next weekend to help my brother with the install, so I am trying to get everything together before I fly out there.
I think the best place for installing the speakers is in the doors since I don't have the time or the money for kick panel enclosures. My brother took a look at the doors and he thinks 5 ¼ speakers would fit there the best. Due to cost I am thinking of looking for speakers in the $50 dollars each range. I have two Rockford Fosgate subs from an old project that I am hoping to use.
Equipment:
clarion EQS744
Infinity Reference 5761a or Alpine MRV-F450
4 Polk Audio db Series db525
2 Rockford Fosgate RFS-1810
Does anyone have good suggestions other than the Polk Audios? Since I have the two sub woofers would I gain a great deal by going with the infinity amp which has 6 channels and use both subs?
What kind of other installation hardware should I purchase before I head out to Colorado? Should I a buy wiring kit and battery terminals?
How would I wire up a switch to turn on the equalizer and amps?
Should I worry about difficulties powering the amp with such and old vehicle?
thanks,
Jesse
swez on 09/18/2005 17:12:13
Both amps draw about the same amount of power, (just under 60A) at full power. The vehicle will need at least 75A ALT and a pretty strong BAT (700 CCA rated) to manage all power needs.
As for which amp to choose, depends on the sub voice coil ohmic ratings. Am not sure, but think these subs may be 8 ohm unit/each. Wired in parallel, you'd get a solid 4 ohm load. That is safe for either amp mentioned. The Alpine nets 200 watts RMS, while the Infinity nets 287 RMS when channels 5&6 are bridged. Yes, you can drop to only 1 sub if you wish. A single 4 ohm sub would be best here. If using the RF sub noted, your net wattage to a single sub drop by 50% if they are indeed 8 ohm subs.
Wire kit, most definitely! A 4 gage wire kit would be great here. You will need long RCA wires from the Clarion EQ to the amp. Depending on the amp you choose, you may need 3 pairs. A pair for front amp channels, a pair for rear channels and a pair for the sub amp section. This is true of the Infinity amp noted.
The Alpine will work fine with only 1-2 pairs of RCA's. It has logic circuits to help one wire the amp with only 1 pair of full range and 1 sub wire input. (nice feature)
The Polk speakers should do you well. They are rated at 45 watts RMS, so not a real problem there. A little more amping power, will not hurt them if amp is not clipping all the time. Use #14 gage speaker wires from amp to speakers. You can use #12 gage for the sub(s) if you wish.
Swez
Currently the volvo has the original Becker mono radio with just a single speaker.
I think I would like to keep the radio since it looks nice in the dash and my brother isn't going to use the radio very often.
My thinking is is to put in a new amplifier and connect the radio to the amplifier with a LOC. Can I just split the mono into two stereo channels and feed that into the amp? In addition I would like to have an auxiliary input so my brother could use his portable cd or mp3 player to play music in the car. What type of amp should I use to provide the auxilliary input, and how would I switch between the radio and aux input?
Also when using a separate amplifier and auxiliary input where is the volume controlled?
What do people suggest for number of speakers. The car is a station wagon and fairly long. I am concerned more about audio fidelity then big base. Would four good quality two or three way speakers be the best, or do I need separate sub woofers to provide any depth? Any suggestions on companies for speakers and amps?
I am thinking of just using the auxiliary input since it will save money on purchasing a head unit, which has a cd player. However, am I going to sacrifice a great deal of audio quality using the aux input for playing cds and mp3s?
thanks,
Jesse
Replies (8)
swez on 09/12/2005 10:34:57
Since we are dealing with a MONO source radio to begin with and like to keep it intact, is best to leave it as is and use a separate system to provide true stereo fidelity and aux features.
The only good option (for real fidelity and stereo performance) is to use a 2nd Aftermarket HU with the features desired. (AM/FM/CD & MP3) One does not have to spend big money for this either. It can even be hidden and use a remote device to activate and control it. (A very handy feature)
As for speakers, this is where the fidelity comes from. Quality Coaxials are good and Component speakers (separate tweeter, woofer and passive crossover network) worksgreat for the front stage. (door panels) The rear stage can be rear door panels or speakers mounted in the wagon stowage area. The challenge will be to locate the new speakers in such a way, that they are well hidden and still give good stereo imaging and good frequency response.
About bass, a set of 6.5-8.0" woofers will do a very good job at giving us above average performance below 100 Hz. Best when used in the back of the vehicle. A small sealed enclosure will help a lot for low end bass at decent listening levels. An integrated enclosure can support both a sub woofer and full range mids/tweets. Here, a single woofer is fine.
Try to picture a 5.1 HT system setup, in this vehicle. Front speakers (L&R) are the front stage. Rear speakers (L&R) are the rear stage and a powered sub for bass.
Before going any deeper, give some feedback as to how you see this install at the end of it all. No sense going on a long post, until we know more about your intent. Comments?
Swez
lollipop on 09/13/2005 08:22:00
Do you think purchasing a new head unit is absolutely necessary?
Would it be possible to just to have an auxiliary input and mono radio available, and them switch between them somehow? What piece of equipment would provide the auxiliary input: amp, equalizer, ...?
I just figure without the money spent on the head unit I could purchase a better amplifier and speakers.
I don't think I want to leave the existing mono speaker in place since I would like to use that hole in back of the vehicle. Also even though the sound will be in mono I think it would be nice to hear that signal over the new speakers.
If I envision the vehicle as 5.1 HT system would I achieve excellent sound for the front two passengers while sacrificing sound quality for those passengers in the middle seats and rear seats? Wouldn't the people in the rear just be inundated by the base speakers?
I assume I will save a considerable amount of money going with good quality coaxials are any brands recommended by the clubknowledge users?
To answer your final question, at this point I envision speakers in the front middle, and possibly in the back if money permits. If possible I would like to keep the speakers in the doors or under the dash. I am concerned that any external boxes will be kicked and damaged by the passengers in the car.
Though I am trying to keep the budget under control, I am willing to spend more money if buying a higher quality piece of equipment results in much better sound quality.
thanks for the help,
Jesse
swez on 09/13/2005 14:14:50
There is not really much one can do with the stock MONO radio in this vehicle as is. It cannot deliver a decent fidelity signal due to its design limitations. If you want high fidelity audio, have to use devices that can deliver it. An AUX feature is almost out of the question here. Yes, one can use an FM type transmitter, but we still have a MONO signal at the output. Nuff said on that one.
Better amps and speakers will do nothing good for a MONO HU that does not have the ability to get the most out of them. Yes, it can make the system louder. But, all things considered, it's like an AM radio. Not much can be done to improve on an AM radio signal.
That speaker hole in back you mentioned, where is it located and what size is it? If there is enough space back there, it may be a good location for a single woofer. Depends on what space is there now and how well a decent woofer can be mounted in that location.
Speakers: A good pair of speakers up front are the key to high quality sound. Doors are generally a good spot for full range Coaxials or Component speakers. Dash speakers can do a decent job as well. However, don't expect good lows from a 4" midrange. They just don't have the cone area to reproduce signals below about 200 Hz. The 5.25" & 6.5" cones can do a better job at handling lows. But, they usually need to go in the doors or custom kick panels made for them.
The rear stage speakers are usually a good pair of Coaxials mounted in rear doors or back panels of the tailgate. Can give some suggestions on brands and such, when you provide a budget figure.
People in the rear seats don't have to be blasted out of their seats. This is where a good HU with fader controls comes in handy. The listening envioronment changes as more bodies are added to a car as passengers. However, the center seat person will usually enjoy the best sound possible. They are in the "sweet spot". However, several of the newer HU's have time delay systems that allow the driver to feel like they are in the "sweet spot". These models are not cheap nor for the low budget installs.
I can suggest a great amp for this install. It's a 5 channel amp. Four amp channels are full range and 1 sub channel. It has loads of flexibilty for input configurations. Very nice electronics to control it too. The Alpine MRV-F450 has it all. Here's some specs on it:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-iJPZ75OP5iq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500MRVF450&search=Alpine+F450
It can be had off e-bay for about $200.00.
Swez (A.K.A. Old Man Audio)
PS I really am "pretty limited" in my knowledge of hi-fi applications. Only have 30 years experience in Pro Audio, Home Hi-fi and now Car Audio. Have installed a few systems in my day and have been on this board for 6 years now. I cannot count how many folks I have lead through well above average car audio installs and planning sessions. (Well over 200 by now) In short, am giving you my best thoughts on how to get to a great sounding system. Work the plan, organize a goal and budget, then we can help get you there.
Victor on 09/13/2005 15:39:22
Hey dave, i am not sure, but what if a mono signal split into 2 is fed to a Surround Amplifier with integrated Dolby Digital® and DTS® Decoder, can the amp processor decode into 5.1 Ch from a mono input???
but if that possible then this is a very good processor as well as amp by blau, might have a look at it, its expensive out here in india, dunno about prices there.
http://www.blaupunkt.co.in/7607792047_main.asp
If this cud help..
Victor...
lollipop on 09/14/2005 08:21:40
Swez,
I really appreciate all the help you are providing, I am fully confident that in regards to car audio you are much more capable and knowledgeable than myself. I am just trying to gain some understanding of the subject because I find it interesting and like to understand a subject I am working with.
I realize that the audio fidelity of the mono radio output is poor. However I really don't care about the audio fidelity of the radio, it will only be used for traffic information and sports games.
When you say 'An AUX feature is almost out of the question here' what do you mean? I would really like an aux input for things like mp3 players, minidisc players, etc? Is the sound quality from an aux input going to be terrible? Can anybody with and aux input share experiences? I thought perhaps I could save some money by using the aux input for listening to cds as well.
Would it be possible to use something like this:
Clarion EQS744 - http://www.teamclarion.com/sharedwebdbs/clarionsupport.nsf/b519d112bdcca8b588256a630071fab1/c5e47429e62528c488256e0c007b1283/$FILE/EQS744%20Owner's%20Manual.pdf
And then couple it with an amplifier like the Alpine MRV-F450, which you mentioned? I figure I would feed the radio into the main input and use the aux input for discmans and mp3 players.
thanks for all the help,
Jesse
swez on 09/14/2005 13:56:16
Lollipop,
I had a chance to chat w/ Victor on this one last night. As we chatted, it hit me that a unit similar to what you have linked, could be used as a mixing preamp with main and Aux inputs. In this case, the AUX input section would be linked to your MONO radio. The main RCA inputs can be used to integrate with MP3 player or other add ons. (or visa-versa)
The trick here, you will need to bring the voltage off the speaker output of present radio, (HU) down to a usable level and RCA jacks going into the Clarion processor. This is called a Line Out Converter. (LOC) This device takes nominal speaker voltages (8-12 volts) down to 2-4 volt range. That will work as you have mentioned. This will work:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?c=1&oid=89601&key=48246&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&BV_SessionID=@@@@0075632624.1126717155@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdfaddfjkdmiglcfngcfkmdffhdfii.0
Have worked with several folks, employing the Audiobahn AEQ6 or Audio Control Three.1 and Four.1i. Same idea as Clarion mentioned, with a Line Driver feature added. The wiring diagram in the Clarion manual shows it all in wiring diagram from sources to processor to amps.
OK, we are now on the same page here. I was interpreting the "AUX" to be used within your present MONO HU. That is not easily done nor advisable. However, an outboard processor/mixer will indeed work here. The main thing to note, you will get great fidelity on MP3/CD players. But the HU signal feed may be much less so and MONO only. If that is acceptable for your application, this plan of attack will indeed work. We just had a communication gap to bridge. You are on the right track with that Clarion unit mentioned.
Where to next? (speakers?)
Summary to date:
1. Mono HU for AM/FM signals
2. Signal processor (preamp mixer) Clarion unit is fine
3. Alpine MRV-F450 (5 channel amp)
4. Speakers (need some budget #'s and sizes next)
5. Subwoofer option
Swez USFLAG
PS That Clarion link, stretched the page and now, hard to read. Can you edit it out and just leave the model number info. My LOC may have to be edited as well. This will return ther page to normal format. Thanks!
lollipop on 09/18/2005 11:23:05
Everything is starting to shape up nicely, thanks for the help,
I am flying out to Colorado next weekend to help my brother with the install, so I am trying to get everything together before I fly out there.
I think the best place for installing the speakers is in the doors since I don't have the time or the money for kick panel enclosures. My brother took a look at the doors and he thinks 5 ¼ speakers would fit there the best. Due to cost I am thinking of looking for speakers in the $50 dollars each range. I have two Rockford Fosgate subs from an old project that I am hoping to use.
Equipment:
clarion EQS744
Infinity Reference 5761a or Alpine MRV-F450
4 Polk Audio db Series db525
2 Rockford Fosgate RFS-1810
Does anyone have good suggestions other than the Polk Audios? Since I have the two sub woofers would I gain a great deal by going with the infinity amp which has 6 channels and use both subs?
What kind of other installation hardware should I purchase before I head out to Colorado? Should I a buy wiring kit and battery terminals?
How would I wire up a switch to turn on the equalizer and amps?
Should I worry about difficulties powering the amp with such and old vehicle?
thanks,
Jesse
swez on 09/18/2005 17:12:13
Both amps draw about the same amount of power, (just under 60A) at full power. The vehicle will need at least 75A ALT and a pretty strong BAT (700 CCA rated) to manage all power needs.
As for which amp to choose, depends on the sub voice coil ohmic ratings. Am not sure, but think these subs may be 8 ohm unit/each. Wired in parallel, you'd get a solid 4 ohm load. That is safe for either amp mentioned. The Alpine nets 200 watts RMS, while the Infinity nets 287 RMS when channels 5&6 are bridged. Yes, you can drop to only 1 sub if you wish. A single 4 ohm sub would be best here. If using the RF sub noted, your net wattage to a single sub drop by 50% if they are indeed 8 ohm subs.
Wire kit, most definitely! A 4 gage wire kit would be great here. You will need long RCA wires from the Clarion EQ to the amp. Depending on the amp you choose, you may need 3 pairs. A pair for front amp channels, a pair for rear channels and a pair for the sub amp section. This is true of the Infinity amp noted.
The Alpine will work fine with only 1-2 pairs of RCA's. It has logic circuits to help one wire the amp with only 1 pair of full range and 1 sub wire input. (nice feature)
The Polk speakers should do you well. They are rated at 45 watts RMS, so not a real problem there. A little more amping power, will not hurt them if amp is not clipping all the time. Use #14 gage speaker wires from amp to speakers. You can use #12 gage for the sub(s) if you wish.
Swez
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